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Shaqattaq
06-18-2015, 09:54 AM
In the Armies of Myth patch, we are introducing a new way to play for those of you who want your HEX on your time. Just like bite-sized candies, you can take one or two at a time or you can choose to dive into a pile of tiny Snickers bars like Scrooge McDuck and devour them all.

https://www.hextcg.com/enter-the-gauntlet/

tyra
06-18-2015, 10:04 AM
oh god, that's great!
perfect for opening packs, the constructed one seems a bit overpriced, but still fine

Salverus
06-18-2015, 10:05 AM
few extra spoilers right before test server comes up :cool:

Rapkannibale
06-18-2015, 10:11 AM
I love this feature! However I agree with tyra that the constructed seems overpriced. If you play constructed you have to win at least 3 games to not be losing money. In sealed you only need 1 win to break even. Seems strange.

Lukezors
06-18-2015, 10:14 AM
Sooooooo excited for async sealed. Gonna play this feature tons no matter what but a couple thoughts on prizes:

-Don't really play constructed much but for sealed the price is the same as the tournament queue, but the prizes seems a bit worse, though now that I think about it I guess this is due to the you can loose up to two matches and still get max prizes
-have you considered throwing any gold in?

Also is it possible to have more than one gauntlet going at once? I.E. Can I play both constructed and sealed gauntlets concurrently?

nicosharp
06-18-2015, 10:15 AM
While the payout is not as enticing as other formats, this option is A LOT MORE forgiving. 3 strike rule, play when you want, ability to counter-act screw scenarios. Not bad, I think this will see significant play!

I haven't had the time to do the math on this, but it will be interesting to see what the output/input adds up to here. I'm sure, at the end of the day, it's very comparable to other modes.

essif
06-18-2015, 10:33 AM
I look forward to the constructed play. It's a bit sad that it does not allow for best of 3 reserves though. Part of the fun is building a deck that can handle the meta post reserves.

nicosharp
06-18-2015, 10:36 AM
I look forward to the constructed play. It's a bit sad that it does not allow for best of 3 reserves though. Part of the fun is building a deck that can handle the meta post reserves.
I was not initially aware of this on my first read. It's a bit disappointing, but more conducive to quick and time neutral game-play. It seems deck building strategy will be less evolved for this mode given the fact there is no way to tweak for the competition... Which may lead to more aggressive tempo decks.

Shaqattaq
06-18-2015, 10:41 AM
I look forward to the constructed play. It's a bit sad that it does not allow for best of 3 reserves though. Part of the fun is building a deck that can handle the meta post reserves.

I can see your point. But, three-game matches is counter to the goal of the Gauntlet feature: provide players quick matches when time is short, the drive to play HEX is high. If you want to test constructed with reserves, you can challenge friends directly to best-of-three when Armies of Myth patch goes live. Hopefully that helps.

bwarner
06-18-2015, 10:48 AM
If you assumed a standard 32 person Swiss tournament, you'd end up with 1 person at 5 wins, 5 at 4 wins, 10 at 3 wins, 10 at 2 wins, 5 at 1 win, and 1 at 0 wins. That ends up being a total of 81 packs going out for 16000 plat going in. So with the exception of the bonus pack for first place, the cost is exactly 200 plat per pack going out.

Sealed is indeed a much better deal. You have the same 81 packs going out, but only 6400 plat going in (not counting the packs). However, those packs were paid for at some point. So you can see this as a way of encouraging people to buy packs in bulk, which is obviously a good thing for Hex. Assuming nobody supplied their own packs, 44800 plat went in and 273 packs came out, for a total cost of 164 plat per pack. That's still pretty reasonable since that is about what we see as AH prices.

MatWith1T
06-18-2015, 11:20 AM
So depending on how popular/unpopular this format becomes, there may be a scenario in which the only other person looking for a match is your last previous opponent. Is re-playing the same opponent something that will NEVER happen, or something that will happen only as a last resort?

CodexReaper
06-18-2015, 11:33 AM
Thank you, THANK YOU.

This is the PvP mode I have absolutely wanted to see - as much as I love Draft tournaments, it's difficult to do them with my schedule. This is absolutely fantastic - I knew it was a planned feature, but I had no idea it was coming in the Set 3 release!

Yet another reason to love what's coming for HEX! :)

Shaqattaq
06-18-2015, 11:47 AM
So depending on how popular/unpopular this format becomes, there may be a scenario in which the only other person looking for a match is your last previous opponent. Is re-playing the same opponent something that will NEVER happen, or something that will happen only as a last resort?

It's unlikely, but can happen in extremely odd, unlikely circumstances like the one you outlined.

Edswor
06-18-2015, 12:00 PM
Great, this is what I have been waiting for a long time :) .

Rapierian
06-18-2015, 12:15 PM
How is the gauntlet format going to work with respect to the various sets? And what happens to existing gauntlet runs of older sets when a new set comes out?

essif
06-18-2015, 01:04 PM
I can see your point. But, three-game matches is counter to the goal of the Gauntlet feature: provide players quick matches when time is short, the drive to play HEX is high. If you want to test constructed with reserves, you can challenge friends directly to best-of-three when Armies of Myth patch goes live. Hopefully that helps.

I see there is also a 1v1 constructed queue with 100p entry in the test client. I'm very excited for this as well and hope these two will breathe some live into competetive constructed play, outside community tournaments

Warrender
06-18-2015, 01:29 PM
I see there is also a 1v1 constructed queue with 100p entry in the test client. I'm very excited for this as well and hope these two will breathe some live into competetive constructed play, outside community tournaments

Yeah, that one should use sideboards in a best 2 out 3 like always.

Yoss
06-18-2015, 03:04 PM
Sealed is indeed a much better deal. You have the same 81 packs going out, but only 6400 plat going in (not counting the packs). However, those packs were paid for at some point. So you can see this as a way of encouraging people to buy packs in bulk, which is obviously a good thing for Hex. Assuming nobody supplied their own packs, 44800 plat went in and 273 packs came out, for a total cost of 164 plat per pack. That's still pretty reasonable since that is about what we see as AH prices.
This math doesn't work right. You need to account for packs in and out and you need to treat closed packs as different in value from open packs.

Input: 200 plat and 6 packs times 32 players = 6400 plat and 192 packs
Output: 81 packs (if I assume your math was right on payouts, not sure), plus contents of 192 packs
Net: 6400p and 111 packs in, contents of 192 packs out
Net (per player): 200p and 3.47 packs in, contents of 6 packs out (plus entertainment value)

Yoss
06-18-2015, 03:29 PM
Payouts are actually not nearly as simple as Swiss. My math says:


0,0
128

0,1 1,0
64 64

0,2 1,1 2,0
32 64 32

0,3 1,2 2,1 3,0
16 48 48 16
|
| 1,3 2,2 3,1 4,0
| 24 48 32 8
| |
| | 2,3 3,2 4,1 5,0
| | 24 40 20 4
| | | |
| | | 3,3 4,2 5,1 |
| | | 20 30 10 |
| | | | | |
| | | | 4,3 5,2 | |
| | | | 15 15 | |
| | | | | | | |
V V V V V V V V
16 24 24 20 15 15 10 4
0 1 2 3 4 6 6 6
0 24 48 60 60 90 60 24

Total packs out: 366
Prize packs per player: 2.859375
Price per prize pack: 174.863388

Assumption was made that the matchmaker always finds a perfect match (never resorts to queue decay).

EDIT: (fixed math, thanks to Raith)
366 packs out per 128 players, that's 175p per pack. Seems like a good target. I like it.

Raith
06-18-2015, 03:51 PM
Yoss, it looks like the left side of your numbers is not excluding the people that hit 3 losses. For example, you have 16 at 0,3 and 48 at 1,2. Then you end up with 32 at 1,3 which is 8 from the 0,3 bracket plus 24 from the 1,2 bracket. The 8 people getting to 1,3 should have been out. This carries down that diagonal and adds a fair number of packs.

Looks like a similar problem at 5 wins with people double counted at 5,0, 5,1, and 5,2.

nicosharp
06-18-2015, 03:52 PM
Snip
I don't have time to check your math either yet, but I have a feeling this can't be true. This is one of the more complex math problems to solve as it involves many different pathways to land at 3 defeats or 5 wins.

Yoss
06-18-2015, 04:08 PM
Fixed the math, thanks. Payout is at 175p per pack (constructed).

Estar1
06-18-2015, 04:54 PM
So constructed queue is 300 plat with similar rewards, constuctued gauntlent is 500. yet

Sealed is 1400 plat (or 6 packs and 200 plat) while Gauntlet costs the same.

seems a bit odd.

Yoss
06-18-2015, 05:21 PM
Comparisons:

8-man Constructed pays at 160p per pack
Gauntlet Constructed pays at 175p per pack

8-man Sealed pays at ~116p per pack-worth-of-cards-and-chest
Gauntlet Sealed pays at ~120p per pack-worth-of-cards-and-chest
Note: Sealed calculation assumes an AH price of 165p per pack used as entry.

So the 8-man queues are better in both cases, but not massively better.

Fred
06-18-2015, 06:43 PM
How is the gauntlet format going to work with respect to the various sets? And what happens to existing gauntlet runs of older sets when a new set comes out?

^ This ^

The update says you can play your games years apart. However, in the theoretical situation where we're at the end of Set 4 and I would start a Sealed gauntlet today with packs from Set 3 and Set 4, what happens the next month when I haven't finished my gauntlet yet, but all new Sealed events are Set 5 only? Will I have to compete against Set 5 decks?

Same goes for Constructed. You may start a Constructed gauntlet with a deck that is perfectly valid at the moment it starts, but a couple of months down the road, some set will have rotated out and will no longer be Constructed-legal. What happens to those gauntlet runs?

Yoss
06-18-2015, 06:46 PM
^ This ^

The update says you can play your games years apart. However, in the theoretical situation where we're at the end of Set 4 and I would start a Sealed gauntlet today with packs from Set 3 and Set 4, what happens the next month when I haven't finished my gauntlet yet, but all new Sealed events are Set 5 only? Will I have to compete against Set 5 decks?

Same goes for Constructed. You may start a Constructed gauntlet with a deck that is perfectly valid at the moment it starts, but a couple of months down the road, some set will have rotated out and will no longer be Constructed-legal. What happens to those gauntlet runs?

They already answered this. You keep the deck you entered with no matter what. You play against whatever the other guy has no matter what. Simple. (But with some strange side effects, possibly. You could, for example, play a Set 3 deck against a Set 20 deck.)

AstaSyneri
06-19-2015, 03:02 AM
I love the Gauntlet for playing Sealed. Level playing field - a good reason (and opportunity) to get to know the new cards.

Constructed is a different beast. I'd love to take a new build there, but competition likely is going to be fierce. Still if you are planning to play in some of the larger tournaments, this might be a good way to take your new deck idea for a spin against that same fierce competition.

Meaning - I am all for this new format.

Now about that PvE... ? ;-)

Vorpal
06-19-2015, 06:53 AM
YES! Asynchronous sealed! Wonderful news.

Lordduck
06-19-2015, 07:43 PM
so since you can play the games years apart does that mean we can use any kind of boosters when we start a new one or will it only accept the currently newest ones, i would love to be able to use my set 1 boosters for instance

hex_colin
06-19-2015, 07:47 PM
so since you can play the games years apart does that mean we can use any kind of boosters when we start a new one or will it only accept the currently newest ones, i would love to be able to use my set 1 boosters for instance

Just whatever Sealed is accepting at that time, so you'll never be able to use it to use up quantities of older sets.

Yoss
06-20-2015, 09:33 AM
I just added some "what if" calculations for my Gauntlet math. If they bump up the 5-1 payout to 7 and the 5-0 payout to 8 then the payout is at 167p per pack for Constructed, which seems rather nice. Still worse than 8-man, but gives a nice even 3.0 EV per player and makes it so that every exit point gets different payout instead of saying that 5-2 is equal to 5-0.

Werlix
06-21-2015, 04:22 PM
Awesome... have been playing less Hex lately due to the lack of in-client constructed options. Can't wait till this is in and I can spam some Constructed Gauntlet :)

nicosharp
06-21-2015, 06:44 PM
I just added some "what if" calculations for my Gauntlet math. If they bump up the 5-1 payout to 7 and the 5-0 payout to 8 then the payout is at 167p per pack for Constructed, which seems rather nice. Still worse than 8-man, but gives a nice even 3.0 EV per player and makes it so that every exit point gets different payout instead of saying that 5-2 is equal to 5-0.
I can't get behind promoting that kind of bump, as 5-2, vs. 5-0 comes down to many many luck/consistency factors in sideboardless best of 1's.

I'd much rather see reduced entry fee premiums for all constructed queues. The biggest limiter for me always with Constructed, is the pain it takes to pony up the plat. Packs for other queues are a non-issue as you keep the cards. It's the flat entry fee that always directly hits the pocketbook.

Yoss
06-22-2015, 09:30 AM
I can't get behind promoting that kind of bump, as 5-2, vs. 5-0 comes down to many many luck/consistency factors in sideboardless best of 1's.

I'd much rather see reduced entry fee premiums for all constructed queues. The biggest limiter for me always with Constructed, is the pain it takes to pony up the plat. Packs for other queues are a non-issue as you keep the cards. It's the flat entry fee that always directly hits the pocketbook.

An equivalent adjustment to plat would only reduce the fee to 475p.

Also, while I agree that there may be a fair bit of luck involved and that luck may be a bit more than for Bo3 formats, I do not agree that that means 5-0 and 5-2 are the same. This whole analysis is based on EV, otherwise known as averages. As such, you can't take a sample size of one and expect to make good conclusions. A player who on average is making 5-1 is obviously more skilled than one who is on average making 5-2 (assuming significant sample size). Therefore it is quite reasonable to reward 5-1 more highly than 5-2.

Cernz
06-30-2015, 01:06 AM
i prefer to win 5:2 over 5:0 or 5:1 - because i want to play the game :D ... playing 7 games for 1 buyin > 5 games ...

Cant wait to play lots of gauntlet games btw :) .... with work + family i cant afford lots of multi hour hex sessions ;) so gauntlet games will be my favorite choice as soon as they are in.... +add tablet support and im done with my sparetime for other things beside of family + hex ;)