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Timlagor
06-29-2015, 11:12 AM
I have an idea for alternate mulligan rule and wonder what other people think of it. The current rule works ok; I think this could be improved however.


Same as current rule except when you redraw you can (optionally) choose one card to 'lock' and keep. Thus you could
-throw away 6 of your original 7 and draw 5 more.
-then choose an extra card to keep and discard 4 of your 6 drawing 3 more

This would certainly make mulligans more powerful.
I think the reduced starting hand is still sufficiently painful that you couldn't really abuse this and it would drastically cut those really frustrating draws where you just can't get sensible number of shards.
It might let you cherry pick a power-combo and that is a concern but I think the risk of shard-deficit would be too great for that to be strong strategy.


Weaker versions of this could be to let you lock:
- shard of your choice
- random shard
- basic shard of choice
- random basic shard
- random non-shard card

If exploitation is a concern I think locking a basic shard would still have most of the benefit I'm looking for.

Vorpal
06-29-2015, 11:15 AM
I like the idea of one 'free' mulligan if you get all shards or no shards.

Yes, this would happen very rarely, but the very rarity of the occurence would mean such a change doesn't disrupt the game balance.

noragar
06-29-2015, 11:23 AM
Giving one player an extra card in their opening hand, but not the other does disrupt game balance even if it's done rarely and randomly within a certain subset of hands.

RCDv57
06-29-2015, 11:25 AM
Hey look its this thread again.
This one is a bit better than most though...

This system would make everyone mulligan almost every game. That's probably enough of a reason for HXE to not like it.

Svenn
06-29-2015, 11:32 AM
This gives a pretty big advantage to combo decks. Just lock one of your combo cards and redraw. Much higher chances of hitting your combo.

loopholist3
06-29-2015, 12:01 PM
Reserving a shard increases your chance for flood, reserving a non-shard increases your chance for screw. Because screw is more likely than flood, reserving a shard is always the best choice. This will probably just result in having new players who don't understand the math yet, reserving a non-shard and getting resource screwed more often than they already do.

If you go with the weaker version to prevent this, then this suggestion is no better than guaranteeing a resource, which has already been shot down several times (by other users). I don't mind the idea of guaranteed resources after you mulligan, but that is one of the oldest suggestions, so I doubt your going to change any minds.

Edit: Odds of getting screwed or flooded when mulliganing based of the idea that 0, 1, 5, or 6 shards is considered screwed or flooded.
Now: 23.5%
Reserve Shard: 15.0%
Reserve Non-Shard: 30.9%

Aradon
06-29-2015, 12:47 PM
Magic's Commander/EDH format uses the Partial Paris mulligan currently, in which you choose any number of cards to mulligan away, and draw that many minus 1, which is a more flexible version of the OP's proposed 'keep one' method. I don't particularly like Partial Paris, but it's an option that's been carefully selected for a rather quirky format. I wouldn't appreciate it for standard play.

However, I do have something interesting to add to the whole 'revisit mulligans' discussion. Oftentimes people say it's too late to change mulligan rules, but it's recently been announced that MtG's trying out a new mulligan rule in which after you keep your hand, if your hand has less than seven cards in it (so, if you mulligan) you get to scry 1.

So it's not impossible, despite people pretending that the system is completely inflexible.

nicosharp
06-29-2015, 01:00 PM
It's honestly not a bad idea. I like it a lot more than any other suggestion I've seen. and I've seen a lot.....
It may help combos, but I think this lends itself more to helping with screw/flood hands

Xenavire
06-29-2015, 01:00 PM
new mulligan rule in which after you keep your hand, if your hand has less than seven cards in it (so, if you mulligan) you get to scry 1.

...That sounds interesting. Whats the feedback like? Or hasn't it been allowed 'publicly'?

selpai
06-29-2015, 01:27 PM
For god's sake... The RNG on a players starting hand is a point of great contention, but some of the suggestions i see are ridiculous. Why not just allow players to put any number of cards back into their decks, and draw one less than what they put back? Current mulligan system, except you can keep as many cards as you like. Simple. Effective. Not particularly contentious.

There's going to need to be a change sometime.

Aradon
06-29-2015, 01:29 PM
...That sounds interesting. Whats the feedback like? Or hasn't it been allowed 'publicly'?

It's going to be tested at the next Grand Prix, I believe. So far most everyone says they hate the idea of it, but it's rare to see a large mass of people that isn't resistant to change.

Poetic
06-29-2015, 01:30 PM
...That sounds interesting. Whats the feedback like? Or hasn't it been allowed 'publicly'?

Pretty positive, they're testing it at the next pro tour. Then deciding if they'll proceed.

Xenavire
06-29-2015, 01:35 PM
I gotta say, it sounds pretty appealing to me. Down a card, but if you only go to 6 it can actually be somewhat beneficial. Go down to 5 and you can try to filter out something that would be a nail in the coffin. 4 and below seem to be about as screwed as normal, but it is still an advantage over the current system.

Also, it may be a powerful effect when the game is already underway, but scry as part of a mulligan makes it a good deal weaker, so I think it would be helpful to all decks equally without any being enabled.

Thrawn
06-29-2015, 01:36 PM
There's going to need to be a change sometime.

The most popular TCG has gotten by with an even more strict system than Hex has for over 20 years.

poizonous
06-29-2015, 01:51 PM
For god's sake... The RNG on a players starting hand is a point of great contention, but some of the suggestions i see are ridiculous. Why not just allow players to put any number of cards back into their decks, and draw one less than what they put back? Current mulligan system, except you can keep as many cards as you like. Simple. Effective. Not particularly contentious.

There's going to need to be a change sometime.

Sure so lets just make combo decks keep 3/4 of their combo and redraw for the 4th piece.

RamzaBehoulve
06-29-2015, 02:03 PM
The most popular TCG has gotten by with an even more strict system than Hex has for over 20 years.

You haven't been reading the news or the thread, have you?

Why do you think they are testing a new rule now? Because people have seen other games with better mulligan rules and have been complaining. Just because they could get by 20 years without any real competition to force them to reevaluate some of the mechanics doesn't mean shit.

People hate random that kills them before they even had a chance.

Diesbudt
06-29-2015, 02:05 PM
For god's sake... The RNG on a players starting hand is a point of great contention, but some of the suggestions i see are ridiculous. Why not just allow players to put any number of cards back into their decks, and draw one less than what they put back? Current mulligan system, except you can keep as many cards as you like. Simple. Effective. Not particularly contentious.

There's going to need to be a change sometime.

Horrible idea for a resource based TCG in which deck speeds range from aggro to control.

Diesbudt
06-29-2015, 02:08 PM
Overall the scry 1 idea is interesting. No cars advantage, and since it's only done when a player is done mulliganing they can't drop to 6 scry1, the. 5 scry1, etc. so it is no major advantage and adds just a fractional portion more of skill on a mulligan on what to do with the scry1 card.

Xenavire
06-29-2015, 02:10 PM
Overall the scry 1 idea is interesting. No cars advantage, and since it's only done when a player is done mulliganing they can't drop to 6 scry1, the. 5 scry1, etc. so it is no major advantage and adds just a fractional portion more of skill on a mulligan on what to do with the scry1 card.

Yeah, its surprisingly elegant. Not a perfect fix, but it raises the skillcap without removing luck entirely... Certainly an interesting change that I would like to see in action. I don't play MTG anymore though.

nicosharp
06-29-2015, 02:14 PM
Still in the midst of a lawsuit, It would be pretty ill-advised for HEX to mimic a newly implemented mulligan system in MTG, if any change at all happens..
Outside of that, seems great - but I think the OP idea is good as well.

Xenavire
06-29-2015, 02:19 PM
Still in the midst of a lawsuit, It would be pretty ill-advised for HEX to mimic a newly implemented mulligan system in MTG, if any change at all happens..
Outside of that, seems great - but I think the OP idea is good as well.

Yeah, I don't think its perfect for Hex either - thresholds etc may not seem like a big impact on mulligans, but I find I mulligan a little differently than I did in MTG. But seeing the scry idea makes me wonder if there isn't a way to mitigate the pain of a mulligan without ignoring the card advantage issue, or the problem of combo.

Maybe Hex could give you a choice of minor 'catch up' buffs? Not sure how to balance them though... I had first thought about 'Draw a card or gain 0/1' but that seems like it would skew things towards certain decktypes. It's a tricky one to get right.

Diesbudt
06-29-2015, 02:35 PM
Yeah, its surprisingly elegant. Not a perfect fix, but it raises the skillcap without removing luck entirely... Certainly an interesting change that I would like to see in action. I don't play MTG anymore though.

Exactly. I think this is a great idea for MTG. I don't think it will be as good in Hex just because thresholds are different than Mtg system. Maybe do something with the charge system in a similar method.

Maybe something like all pvp champions gain a 2nd charge power that costs 2 but can only be used once a game. 2 charges - Create a 0/1 non threshold resource and place it into your hand. If a player begins the game with less than 7 cards start game with one charge.

Still not perfect, but all players could use the power if needed. Non charge. Non threshold 0/1 resource is useful for players that are hurting for resources. But not game breaking, add in a charge counter for mulligan hands. Could allow one to be 1 resource away from creating a weak resource, or if they are good on resources 1 charge counter closer to the actual unique power, which in the grand scheme isn't overall powerful in most circumstances.

Xavon
06-29-2015, 05:36 PM
I think the starting hand should be two random shards plus the top five cards after the shuffle. Then, if you have six or seven shards, you can mulligan once, getting 2 shards plus 4 after shuffle. And that's it.

Thoom
06-29-2015, 06:53 PM
I think the starting hand should be two random shards plus the top five cards after the shuffle. Then, if you have six or seven shards, you can mulligan once, getting 2 shards plus 4 after shuffle. And that's it.

A few more sets worth of burn cards and this makes a deck with 2 shards and 58 burn cards pretty silly.

Diesbudt
06-29-2015, 07:01 PM
I think the starting hand should be two random shards plus the top five cards after the shuffle. Then, if you have six or seven shards, you can mulligan once, getting 2 shards plus 4 after shuffle. And that's it.

Yes. Let's do this and have an aggro deck only have 2 shards and 58 1-2 costs and watch no other deck able to compete. /Sarcasm

Horrible idea.

Sparrow
06-29-2015, 07:37 PM
I think a more flexible mulligan is a great idea for easy mode in PVE and a harsher or no mulligan would be a good fit for a harder PVE mode. I also think multiple types of mulligan's are a great fit for unsanctioned PvP play. These would be great testing grounds to see what effect this kind of change has on the game.

As far as sanctioned play, I think a block would have to be designed with this mulligan type in mind. I guess it just comes down to how much the meta would be affected. It's possible that a more flexible mulligan could open up competitive play to all sorts of decks. It's also possible (and probable, IMO) that this would result in fewer competitive constructed decks types. But like I said above, great option for easy mode in PVE.

Vorpal
06-30-2015, 07:35 AM
Hey look its this thread again.
This one is a bit better than most though...

This system would make everyone mulligan almost every game. That's probably enough of a reason for HXE to not like it.

That would be an improvement, IMO, for two reasons.

One is that it makes new players less reluctant to mulligan - right now having to mulligan and lose a card is seen as a punishment best avoided. The other is that it introduces more decision points into the game, which allows for there to be more space between skilled and unskilled play.

It might even boost combo decks a bit, which are much too weak right now, IMO.

Xenavire
06-30-2015, 09:23 AM
It might even boost combo decks a bit, which are much too weak right now, IMO.

If you have been on the receiving end of anything nutty (Machinist and Gambit being the most playable) chances are you don't want it to be more reliable. Hell, I have had very consistent win rates with my gambit deck, and I doubt it is a good idea to make any combo deck stronger, because it just means we will start to see bans and HexEnt intentionally making lower powered cards.

In short - as a combo player, I'd say this is not a great idea. More combo's will emerge with time. :p

(There is a case to be made about some silly combo's in set 3 already. I doubt the ones I have found will be viable, but they sure are fun, and even a few pieces could break the decks into scary levels of power.)

N3rd4Christ
06-30-2015, 09:57 AM
It has officially been 0 Days since the last mulligan thread

Vorpal
06-30-2015, 10:13 AM
If you have been on the receiving end of anything nutty (Machinist and Gambit being the most playable) chances are you don't want it to be more reliable. Hell, I have had very consistent win rates with my gambit deck, and I doubt it is a good idea to make any combo deck stronger, because it just means we will start to see bans and HexEnt intentionally making lower powered cards.

In short - as a combo player, I'd say this is not a great idea. More combo's will emerge with time. :p

(There is a case to be made about some silly combo's in set 3 already. I doubt the ones I have found will be viable, but they sure are fun, and even a few pieces could break the decks into scary levels of power.)

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see a single combo deck in the undefeated VIP constructed deck lists.

Xenavire
06-30-2015, 10:51 AM
Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see a single combo deck in the undefeated VIP constructed deck lists.

And? Just because it isn't performing at top tier level doesn't mean it is a good idea to give it more power (since combo typically relies on having a broad cardpool, which we still don't quite have.) The fact that theres a few moderately good, non-top tier combo decks with only 2 sets is fairly insane, so I would rather wait and see how combo does without a change.

As it stands, I have piloted my gambit deck to 3-1's and 2-2's with a fair amount of regularity, which isn't at all bad for combo.

loopholist3
06-30-2015, 11:45 AM
For those of you who are for the the scry solution, here is where it was origanlly brought up in May of 2014.

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=36099&p=376410&viewfull=1#post376410

Diesbudt
06-30-2015, 11:51 AM
For those of you who are for the the scry solution, here is where it was origanlly brought up in May of 2014.

Spoiler: It was shot down by hex_colin.

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=36099&p=376410&viewfull=1#post376410

That is actually different.

The MTg solution is after all mulligans, when you officially keep your hand you scry 1. Not after each individual mulligan, which would be too much. The scry 1 after all mulligans is okay, as it is an after-use after mulliganning. Again as I said earlier though it is only better in MTG as they dont do thresholds, and that little help is huge.

Hex would need something different... but I dont agree there needs to be a mulligan change, I like the skill level needed to realize when you need to throw a hand or keep it to maximize chances with deck building. Always have.

loopholist3
06-30-2015, 12:07 PM
That is actually different.

The MTg solution is after all mulligans, when you officially keep your hand you scry 1. Not after each individual mulligan, which would be too much. The scry 1 after all mulligans is okay, as it is an after-use after mulliganning.

MtG probably made you scry after you decide to keep the hand to speed up the game in case the player needs to double mulligan. In magic you will need to wait until the player has fully completed his mulligan, and to complete the mulligan the player is going to have to look at their hand, set their hand down, pick up the scryed card look at it, place it in his deck, and then re-pickup your hand. Because hex is digital, you could show the player both his hand and scry card simultaneously without fear that the cards would get mixed up, so it should be substantially faster to do. In fact it should be faster to do it this way in hex than it would be to wait until after the player had decided to keep the hand.


Again as I said earlier though it is only better in MTG as they dont do thresholds, and that little help is huge.

Hex would need something different... but I dont agree there needs to be a mulligan change, I like the skill level needed to realize when you need to throw a hand or keep it to maximize chances with deck building. Always have.

I don't actually understand how lands and shards are different enough for it to matter in this scenario. People who want to change mulligans mainly want to combat the need to mulligan down to 5, which is usually done with 0 or 1 shard hands. When you have only 1 shard, they function exactly the same as lands.

Thrawn
06-30-2015, 12:08 PM
I don't feel the ideas are different enough for the reason that hex_colin shot it down to become invalid.

While his reason is correct, keep in mind hex_colin does not speak or work for Hex. He's just a player who has enough resources or a lucky enough home location to be visit them often and keep in much heavier communication than most people.

loopholist3
06-30-2015, 12:23 PM
I did forget that, I will remove the spoiler warning.