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View Full Version : Not understanding the reasoning behind removing 221 draft and sealed queus post set 3



Sparrow
07-01-2015, 06:14 AM
I think it's obvious by now that events for set 3 will be firing with regularity after launch, given how events for sets 1 and 2 still fire despite being fairly stale. I've got plenty of set 1 and 2 packs still as I'm sure a lot of people do. For me personally, the only way to get value from them is to rip them for an event, which is something a lot of people would agree with.

Given that, I don't see the rationale behind removing events for set 1 and 2 from the server, even temporarily. Does Hex think it will prevent set 3 events from firing because everyone will be queuing for events in the old formats? I can't imagine why they'd think that.

I think there's room in the event schedule to have 221 drafts available as well as 222211 sealed firing between firing times for set 3 sealed. The upside for us is it will help keep set 1 and 2 packs in demand which impacts secondary market value for packs and singles. The upside for Hex is more events firing which consumes platinum and packs.

Kind of scratching my head trying to figure out what Hex is thinking as I usually agree with most of their decisions.

Sparrow
07-01-2015, 06:16 AM
Oops, posted two threads by accident somehow, please remove! Thanks!

Cernz
07-01-2015, 06:19 AM
i understand why removing 2-2-1 is imporant and i totally agree with it.

also splitting the playerbase is always a bad idea... and set3 only
tournaments might bring more money to hexent which is also important.

Cernz
07-01-2015, 06:20 AM
i understand why removing 2-2-1 is imporant and i totally agree with it.

also splitting the playerbase is always a bad idea... and set3 only
tournaments might bring more money to hexent which is also important.

grml dem 2 posts =)

Thrawn
07-01-2015, 06:21 AM
I would assume it's because we don't have a large enough player base to keep multiple events across multiple sets firing at the same time. It can already be a long wait for some types of tournaments to fill and fire.

Xenavire
07-01-2015, 06:27 AM
I am almost positive that if they left open 221 and 222211, they would only see them fire a mere handful of times per week, once set 3 is available, if they fire at all. Very few people will want to put up with the sheer frustration of trying to fill a 221 or 222211 queue when everyone else is in 333.

Cory made a comment that he would like to add them back in later - and that seems to be the wisest action, if they end up doing it at all, because set 3 cards and limited play will be so greatly in demand after launch that 221 and 222211 will be impossible to get off the ground.

Kramer
07-01-2015, 07:06 AM
The real question is why is it not 3-3-2. I ask this because currently it makes every even set more valuable then odd ones since the card pool will always have more cards available (packs openened) in odd sets vs. even sets or am I missing something.

Poetic
07-01-2015, 07:09 AM
Set 3 is the start of a new block. Set 2 synergies went with set 1.

Set 4 will introduce 443.

Xenavire
07-01-2015, 07:12 AM
The real question is why is it not 3-3-2. I ask this because currently it makes every even set more valuable then odd ones since the card pool will always have more cards available (packs openened) in odd sets vs. even sets or am I missing something.

It is done that way because of how the sets are designed. Set 3 is part of a new block, and it is designed to be played 3-3-3 and 4-4-3, but not 3-3-2. 3-3-3 is balanced around having access to certain cards, and the cards in set 2 would likely make the whole thing really frustrating to play.

Would be fun for a weekend or something, but mot standard.

Sparrow
07-01-2015, 07:20 AM
I am almost positive that if they left open 221 and 222211, they would only see them fire a mere handful of times per week, once set 3 is available, if they fire at all. Very few people will want to put up with the sheer frustration of trying to fill a 221 or 222211 queue when everyone else is in 333.

Cory made a comment that he would like to add them back in later - and that seems to be the wisest action, if they end up doing it at all, because set 3 cards and limited play will be so greatly in demand after launch that 221 and 222211 will be impossible to get off the ground.
I'm sure they will be added in later. Maybe once they add the capability of being in two queues at once and being able to participate in other activities while waiting for a queue to fire it will be more viable.

The speculation that the player base will be too fractured sounds clever and all, but I see no reason for that to be true. We have a good player base and it is only getting stronger.

edit: Side question: Will constructed now be sets 1, 2, and 3 together or will that be 3 only as well?

Vorpal
07-01-2015, 07:35 AM
They shouldn't be available full time, but should make returns for special 'blast from the past' weekend events.

Thrawn
07-01-2015, 07:35 AM
edit: Side question: Will constructed now be sets 1, 2, and 3 together or will that be 3 only as well?

Together. If I remember correctly it will be 1,2,3,4 together until 5 is released. Then it will be 3,4,5 and 1,2 will be dropped.

Koz
07-01-2015, 07:56 AM
As a new player, I agree with the OP. There are still many, many rares I need to collect from sets 1 and 2 and I don't want to get them by just cracking packs or paying the ABSURD auction house prices. Opening your packs in a draft is by far the best way to build your collection, since you may end up with more rares and you can cherry pick your uncommons. Having the only draft format available being 3-3-3 may be great for people who have been playing for a long time, but I think it's an obstacle for new players who want to collect more than just the current set.

Plus, I feel that 3-3-3 is going to get stale real fast. Having only been playing a few months, I'm already getting tired of the same plays and the same cards in drafts. It's almost always Dwarves or Humans that you play with and against, and those decks use all the same draft choices with the occasional odd ball rare/legendary that you don't see as often. How much worse will it be with only one set in the pool? I didn't play when Set 1 was the only set, but I'm sure it got old fast, and I don't see this being much different.

I have the feeling that we're going to see the same couple of decks with the same couple of Champions being used over and over. I'm betting it will be Coyotles and Elves 90% of the time, and with a smaller card pool those decks will be very similar most times. At least I HOPE it will be Coyotles an Elves...because if Vennen are really strong in draft, that will be so ridiculously unfun to play against all of the time that I can't see it being good for the format's popularity.

I guess we'll see what happens, but I agree with the OP, dropping anything but 3-3-3 seems like an odd choice. Some of us would like to play other formats too. Why not let us?

Thrawn
07-01-2015, 08:11 AM
Plus, I feel that 3-3-3 is going to get stale real fast.

It will. That's why we are supposed to be getting new sets every 3-4 months, not 6-7.

nicosharp
07-01-2015, 08:50 AM
I want to give HEX time to explain this plan through the course of Set 3.
It's highly likely (I'd say almost 100%) that we are going to see more weekly/monthly/quarterly events - Some that will likely publicize the reemergence of set 1 and set 2 packs.
IE - Retro Week / Roll-back Wednesday's / Random Draft / Iron Man Sealed / etc.

What I personally think should happen, is the format can be adjusted to be played with set 1 and set 2 packs, but the rewards should remain of the current set - so set 1 and set 2 packs still retain value, still can be opened in tournament play, and that tournament play can help people with old packs get new packs for the current standard limited, also that limited windows are presented, so the queues are prioritized for those dates, but not dead-mans land during all hours of operation.

Gwaer
07-01-2015, 08:56 AM
I'd love a queue that has random pack requirements. Everyone joins up, then after the queue is fired it randomly decides what sets will be involved. unfortunately unless people go into the game with some of every set they'd end up having to pay plat. But I'd still enjoy an event like that occasionally.

Sparrow
07-01-2015, 09:18 AM
I'd love a queue that has random pack requirements. Everyone joins up, then after the queue is fired it randomly decides what sets will be involved. unfortunately unless people go into the game with some of every set they'd end up having to pay plat. But I'd still enjoy an event like that occasionally.
I think that's the ideal solution. I'm thinking Hex's decision to discontinue Set 1 and 2 events has a lot to do with wanting to generate more sales with the release of set 3. I'm not against that by any means I guess I just perceived the health of the game to be stronger than Hex is signaling that it is.

nicosharp
07-01-2015, 09:21 AM
I think that's the ideal solution. I'm thinking Hex's decision to discontinue Set 1 and 2 events has a lot to do with wanting to generate more sales with the release of set 3. I'm not against that by any means I guess I just perceived the health of the game to be stronger than Hex is signaling that it is.
The Health of the game may be strong, but queue firing is based on queue saturation. I'm not sure we have the player-base yet to approach 10x+ queues. With the addition of Gauntlet, unless they remove standard sealed - we will be very near 10 queues - given the every 4 hour 128mans..

Sparrow
07-01-2015, 09:40 AM
The Health of the game may be strong, but queue firing is based on queue saturation. I'm not sure we have the player-base yet to approach 10x+ queues. With the addition of Gauntlet, unless they remove standard sealed - we will be very near 10 queues - given the every 4 hour 128mans..
To be honest I'm not sure myself, but I'd be shocked if one set 3 sealed event failed to fire because of set 1/2 events, for example. With regards to draft, my thinking is anyone that wants to play 221 probably isn't interested in playing 333 anyways so I don't think it would detract much from that either.

I guess I'm comfortable with their decision when I tell myself they want to stimulate set 3 sales, so that's probably how I'll think of it. To think of it otherwise disturbs me that Hex doesn't have more confidence in their player base/game.

nicosharp
07-01-2015, 09:45 AM
I guess I'm comfortable with their decision when I tell myself they want to stimulate set 3 sales, so that's probably how I'll think of it. To think of it otherwise disturbs me that Hex doesn't have more confidence in their player base/game.
That may be an effect, but I doubt it's the cause. Welcomed to think of it how you like though.
People are impatient. Hearthstone has a great model and lack of queues to capitalize on that large demographic of casuals.

desk
07-01-2015, 10:12 AM
I'd love a queue that has random pack requirements. Everyone joins up, then after the queue is fired it randomly decides what sets will be involved. unfortunately unless people go into the game with some of every set they'd end up having to pay plat. But I'd still enjoy an event like that occasionally.

I like this idea a lot.

Koz
07-01-2015, 10:46 AM
I'd love a queue that has random pack requirements. Everyone joins up, then after the queue is fired it randomly decides what sets will be involved. unfortunately unless people go into the game with some of every set they'd end up having to pay plat. But I'd still enjoy an event like that occasionally.

It could also be done by just grabbing three random packs out of a person's stash. If someone only has set 3 packs, then that person would contribute 3 set three packs, but if someone had some of each, then it could end up being a mix. I like the idea of a random pack draft like that just because you'd never really know what you'd be up against and it would promote more interesting draft choices since you have no idea what kinds of packs you'll be handed. It would be harder for an environment like that to get stale since there would be a higher degree of randomness in the pool, and the more sets that come out the more variety you'd see. I'd love it if drafting weren't all about just going with a particular tribal strategy, because that's what makes it get stale.

Bottom line IMO is that they should do something to support older sets in draft because it's good for new players and enhances variety.

israel.kendall
07-01-2015, 10:51 AM
Let the players pick which packs to play with, not random. Why random?

Gwaer
07-01-2015, 10:59 AM
Those would probably be fine. But I'd prefer everyone being on more even footing.

Also, I like random because otherwise you just have people picking the cheapest packs to use at any given time, which I don't think would be as fun.

nicosharp
07-01-2015, 11:00 AM
Let the players pick which packs to play with, not random. Why random?
well - whatever is decided on has to be the same for every player in the queue. This is so that the packs being passed around or opened in sealed are the same for everyone playing. It doesn't have to be random, it could just be "random set"

Random Set:
After a Random queue fires - a new random queue is generated.
The format is listed before joining the random queue.
When that random queue fires - a new random queue is generated -- so-on-so-forth.

plaguedealer
07-01-2015, 11:02 AM
I think there would be a renewed interest in the current draft format if we had a weekend were it is 1-2-2 or 2-1-2. I am not to keen on a random queue.

Gwaer
07-01-2015, 11:03 AM
I think there would be a renewed interest in the current draft format if we had a weekend were it is 1-2-2 or 2-1-2. I am not to keen on a random queue.

Agreed, I'm certain they'll start doing more stuff like that in the future.

israel.kendall
07-01-2015, 11:05 AM
well - whatever is decided on has to be the same for every player in the queue. This is so that the packs being passed around or opened in sealed are the same for everyone playing. It doesn't have to be random, it could just be "random set"

Random Set:
After a Random queue fires - a new random queue is generated.
The format is listed before joining the random queue.
When that random queue fires - a new random queue is generated -- so-on-so-forth.

I don't agree that it need to be a random set. Pack one could be a mix of set 1, 2, and 3 packs going around, whatever those players chose.

MasterN64
07-01-2015, 11:07 AM
As has already been said the main problem with keeping the 2-2-1 is splitting the playerbase. Doing a 3-3-2 draft is just silly as youlll be drafting all of these fancy new vennen elf and coyotle creatures only to pop into a final draft that is all human orc and dwarf. Set 3 is a big change in many of the standard keywords and meta so throwing in a set 2 pack in there just wont work.

EntropyBall
07-01-2015, 11:11 AM
I'd love a queue that has random pack requirements. Everyone joins up, then after the queue is fired it randomly decides what sets will be involved. unfortunately unless people go into the game with some of every set they'd end up having to pay plat. But I'd still enjoy an event like that occasionally.

I either don't understand this idea, or I do and I don't like it at all. I also don't think it would fire much, as lots of people like to use the limited queues to open packs, and having to randomly pay plat instead would be a turn off for those players. I just don't see the value of it at all, as you seem to be implying that it picks the format 1-1-1, 221, 333, etc and it's the same for all players. Why not just let people choose which one of those they are entering? If you want the randomness, just roll a die and join one.

I hope we see 111, 222, 2-2-1 queues, but I think it makes sense to have them only as limited time events. The current scheduled sealed queues rarely fire now, and I think will fire even more rarely once gauntlet is out (to the point where its only fired by a guild that organizes an event). Draft fires regularly during US prime-time at least, but part of the draw of draft is that it always fires after a short wait. I have some set 1 and 2 packs, so if they offered 333 and 221 at the same time, I would sometimes choose to play 221 and would then be cutting into the population of 333 players available. Unless I'm the only person in this position (which I think is unlikely), then adding set 1/2 queues alongside the 333 queues is going to cut into them.

nicosharp
07-01-2015, 11:16 AM
I don't agree that it need to be a random set. Pack one could be a mix of set 1, 2, and 3 packs going around, whatever those players chose.
That would be a really funny draft mode. I'd play it, but I'm sure you would see a lot of "cheapest AH set packs" floating around.

Also, if they continue with the current drop-down listings for how you join the queue... I am going to need to convert my monitor to a portrait display type.

israel.kendall
07-01-2015, 11:21 AM
That would be a really funny draft mode. I'd play it, but I'm sure you would see a lot of "cheapest AH set packs" floating around.

Also, if they continue with the current drop-down listings for how you join the queue... I am going to need to convert my monitor to a portrait display type.

Yeah sure, which would actually increase the value of those packs. It would also allow people to play the ones they already have large stacks of.

Could be too weird to work tho, but I think something like that is worth a shot at least.

Poetic
07-01-2015, 11:25 AM
Seems like something they could do as a silly format randomly for a weekend out of the year or something.

Gwaer
07-01-2015, 11:39 AM
@entropyball because random gets us formats that may not ever exist. like 11-3-22 or 14-12-1 or any other random assortment of packs, which might end up being really neat. Also I don't think it should be around all the time. Really I think the only queue that should be available at all times should be the current set. All others should come and go throughout the day,week,month,year,decade.

vickrpg
07-01-2015, 01:30 PM
My suggestion: With the advent of Gauntlet, I sincerely doubt the scheduled tournaments will fire. ever. Replace the scheduled tournaments with 221 drafts, alternating swiss and comp, and allow overflow tourneys whenever one fills up. regular, 8 man drafts. Then they will still happen "often" but not anytime, or constantly.

Sparrow
07-01-2015, 01:40 PM
I think scheduled sealed will still be popular due to the prize support -- Gauntlet prize support is pretty anemic. Remember, many of the people that play this are coming from TCG environments where 4 round+ tournaments fire often. People accustomed to instant gratification online may find it hard to believe, but they actually enjoy that format.

poizonous
07-01-2015, 01:42 PM
Scheduled's will fire a lot more often with the introduction of set 3. As Sparrow said, prize support handing out a bunch more packs, and gauntlet is not for everyone. Gauntlet's prize support is not aimed to be something played all the time. Streamers have already declared that gauntlet for them will mostly be used as down time when they dont have time for a full draft.

TOOT
07-01-2015, 01:55 PM
I think scheduled sealed will still be popular due to the prize support -- Gauntlet prize support is pretty anemic. Remember, many of the people that play this are coming from TCG environments where 4 round+ tournaments fire often. People accustomed to instant gratification online may find it hard to believe, but they actually enjoy that format.

I don't think one person would currently classify scheduled sealed as popular. Not even half of them fire.

Gauntlet prize support is far from anemic. Perhaps you should actually do the math, or search for Yoss' posts showing there is a minute difference.

I'd like to see what metrics you have to assume many people are coming from backgrounds that prefer 5hr+ tournaments at once. Part of the appeal of Hex being a digital TCG is that you can get away from this type of structure, or to have competitive options that don't entail a 5hr block of time at once.

So yeah, I don't think one thing you wrote has any merit at all.

nicosharp
07-01-2015, 02:04 PM
I don't think one person would currently classify scheduled sealed as popular. Not even half of them fire.

Gauntlet prize support is far from anemic. Perhaps you should actually do the math, or search for Yoss' posts showing there is a minute difference.

I'd like to see what metrics you have to assume many people are coming from backgrounds that prefer 5hr+ tournaments at once. Part of the appeal of Hex being a digital TCG is that you can get away from this type of structure, or to have competitive options that don't entail a 5hr block of time at once.

So yeah, I don't think one thing you wrote has any merit at all.
Completely agree with you on all points. Gauntlets will be very popular, and I think the prize support is plenty to promote consistent play. I just can't sit in the same place for 4.5hours, but I can easily do 15-30mins stints in-between life.
Streamers are a completely different breed.
(Of course - I am talking about sealed for now - still verdict is out on Constructed - 500plat is hard to stomach when you are not opening and growing your collection at the same time)

chromus
07-01-2015, 02:30 PM
Before we knew Gauntlet was going to be part of Set 3 release, I was in favor of keeping the 2-2-1 Queues even if they ended up not firing often. In my opinion, just knowing that your Set 1/2 packs can be useful for limited play would have been enough for them to retain most of their values.
But with Gauntlet, you are already dividing your Limited modes and hence playerbase into 3 (Comp Draft, Swiss Draft, Gauntlet Sealed). If you add 2-2-1, it's divided even further to 5 groups. In this case, I don't believe 2-2-1 would fire at all. Remove 2-2-1 for a while, have people play the crap out of Set 3. Then bring back Set1/Set2, preferably in some formats we haven't played yet(2-1-1, 1-2-1, etc) few weeks/months later (I'd do it in the middle of Set 3 release and next big content release to reattain player interest for next to 0 development resources).

Also, I don't see the point of still having Scheduled Sealed unless it fills the gap of "Large Limited Tournament" with a Top 8 Draft cut and nice prizes. Perhaps schedule 2 of these every weekend, accommodating NA timezone with one and EU timezone with the other. Minimum number of players 64 maybe?

Sparrow
07-01-2015, 02:32 PM
So yeah, I don't think one thing you wrote has any merit at all.
Well, we're even then as you're up to your usual posting standards.

I was incredibly gentle in my disagreement with the previous poster. Not sure where you confrontational attitude is coming from. As far as Yoss's math, I don't really want to drag him or his post into this, but I've found that I respectfully disagree with a lot of his calculations. And I do mean respectfully.

Nowhere did I state that gauntlet would not be popular -- it will be very popular. I will play gauntlet at times.

Never said people prefer 5+ hour tournies, but that people like them and the prizes they offer. Reading comp is tech.

It's much classier to show respect to other formats than put them down because they don't interest you. I support all formats and the people that play them, not just my pet few (or one, as the case may be).

TOOT
07-01-2015, 02:38 PM
You said the prize support for gauntlet was anemic, that has nothing to do with being popular or not. And like I said, do the math yourself if you dont trust Yoss'. It is under a 5% difference.

You said sealed was popular, which it clearly isn't. With under half firing and those that do, struggle to even make 16 people, I don't see how any sane human could consider that popular.

Looks like you could use the std reading comprehension copout line, not me.

I was incredibly gentle in saying nothing you said has any merit, I could have clearly called you clueless, which would have been more appropriate.

poizonous
07-01-2015, 02:45 PM
Sealed not Firing has more to do with people not interested in 2/2/2/2/1/1 Sealed format than anything else. Scheduled's will continue to fire at a more frequent basis with the introduction of the new set. Gauntlet prize pools just dont cut it for competitive players. Sure they will be popular but there is little reason someone couldn't do both gauntlet and scheduled at the same time.

Sparrow
07-01-2015, 02:46 PM
Sealed not Firing has more to do with people not interested in 2/2/2/2/1/1 Sealed format than anything else. Scheduled's will continue to fire at a more frequent basis with the introduction of the new set. Sealed prize pools, just dont cut it for competitive players. Sure they will be popular but there is little reason someone couldn't do both gauntlet and scheduled at the same time.
Thanks, your reply was more measured. Glad I caught myself before hitting post.

israel.kendall
07-01-2015, 02:49 PM
Calm down guys, math is a terrible thing to wish on a person.

Sparrow
07-01-2015, 02:51 PM
Calm down guys, math is a terrible thing to wish on a person.
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. Mark Twain.

Xenavire
07-01-2015, 03:01 PM
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. Mark Twain.

He cant be that great, he forgot about blaming it on the dog...

EntropyBall
07-01-2015, 03:53 PM
@entropyball because random gets us formats that may not ever exist. like 11-3-22 or 14-12-1 or any other random assortment of packs, which might end up being really neat. Also I don't think it should be around all the time. Really I think the only queue that should be available at all times should be the current set. All others should come and go throughout the day,week,month,year,decade.

Gotcha, I thought you meant it randomly picked a format, like 111, 221, 333 etc. I guess I can see the allure of the complete grab bag format, though I think it would probably not be great, as they carefully design the sets to draft nicely together.

Gwaer
07-01-2015, 05:10 PM
Gotcha, I thought you meant it randomly picked a format, like 111, 221, 333 etc. I guess I can see the allure of the complete grab bag format, though I think it would probably not be great, as they carefully design the sets to draft nicely together.

I agree with you. The drafts/sealed that are designed to work as a draft/sealed are superior. But, even well designed and balanced limited sets can get a little boring. I just think it would be fun to occasionally be able to jump into a random draft or sealed event where you have no idea what is coming, or how the cards in each pack will really mesh together. Most likely people in those drafts will do better if they have a very firm grasp of all of the packs involved, very rarely are you likely to see keywords that weren't designed to be in limited together working well at all... But, if everyone is on the same footing it could still be fun, occasionally, when a the current limited format has either grown stale for you, or maybe you just don't like it very much.

hex_colin
07-01-2015, 06:28 PM
I'd spent a lot of money on a "random" draft format. You join, the draft fires, and it tells you the format (e.g. 1-3-1) just before your first pick. :)

But... we need a lot more people playing before we should be diluting the queues.

vickrpg
07-02-2015, 06:39 AM
I would also play the heck out of a random draft format as described. But I just had another idea.
how about a weekly draft format?
Rather than having an additional static queue there all the time, splitting the limited pool, what about a weekly format roation on the non current formats.

So... you would keep the current set ones up all the time, the comp draft, swiss draft, etc, that are for the current set, but rotate all other established draft formats once a week. Maybe even have it no be random, but voted on.

E.g.: week 1 it could be 111 comp, week 2 it could be 221 swiss. or even that 222 swiss format that we played for a weekend week 3, followed by a wonky 321 comp format the next. unlike the scheduled queue, they'd still be up as they fire, but only for a week. that would keep the demand for them high, and only split the queue for people who want to play that week's format...

Diesbudt
07-02-2015, 06:47 AM
I would also play the heck out of a random draft format as described. But I just had another idea.
how about a weekly draft format?
Rather than having an additional static queue there all the time, splitting the limited pool, what about a weekly format roation on the non current formats.

So... you would keep the current set ones up all the time, the comp draft, swiss draft, etc, that are for the current set, but rotate all other established draft formats once a week. Maybe even have it no be random, but voted on.

E.g.: week 1 it could be 111 comp, week 2 it could be 221 swiss. or even that 222 swiss format that we played for a weekend week 3, followed by a wonky 321 comp format the next. unlike the scheduled queue, they'd still be up as they fire, but only for a week. that would keep the demand for them high, and only split the queue for people who want to play that week's format...

I don't think this would do much demand. The biggest reason? Prizes match pack input, and before anyone says anything, that's the way they want it and keep it that way. So if it's a 111, 112, 211, 222, 212 (etc.) I wouldn't play. I have no use for set 1 and 2 packs as prizes being full completion of those sets.

Thrawn
07-02-2015, 07:30 AM
We don't have enough cards or sets for any kind of random format limited to be interesting. The appeal of it in some other games is that you might get cards from over a decade ago. Crazy things that make silly combos, are really powerful or really awful, extremely valuable or something you've maybe never actually seen. It keeps it very interesting. Right now we'd just have "Oh, yep, I haven't seen that card since...the constructed match I played in gauntlet right before this."

Tazelbain
07-02-2015, 07:42 AM
I just hate idea that there is no limited format to use older legal sets. I would like a catch-all "bring any 3 packs and are packs randomly assigned to open" draft.

Diesbudt
07-02-2015, 07:59 AM
I just hate idea that there is no limited format to use older legal sets. I would like a catch-all "bring any 3 packs and are packs randomly assigned to open" draft.

Then everyone would bring the cheapest packs hoping to get out ahead at the gate, basically making it mostly a 111 or 112. I would never play this.

israel.kendall
07-02-2015, 08:04 AM
Then everyone would bring the cheapest packs hoping to get out ahead at the gate, basically making it mostly a 111 or 112. I would never play this.

I bet people with stacks of set 1 packs would ay the heck out of it, and that's the point.

Thrawn
07-02-2015, 08:11 AM
I bet people with stacks of set 1 packs would ay the heck out of it, and that's the point.

I have stacks of set 1 packs and I wouldn't touch it. I have all the set 1 cards I need, I played the format for months and months and months and I'd much rather play something new and exciting than something I got bored of last year.

Diesbudt
07-02-2015, 08:12 AM
I have stacks of set 1 packs and I wouldn't touch it. I have all the set 1 cards I need, I played the format for months and months and months and I'd much rather play something new and exciting than something I got bored of last year.

Exactly. This could be a great idea in like 5 years. But for now, just the "newest" set/block should be focuesed on in limited.

333 and then 443 when 4 comes out.

Tazelbain
07-02-2015, 08:20 AM
Then everyone would bring the cheapest packs hoping to get out ahead at the gate, basically making it mostly a 111 or 112. I would never play this.What about six months from now when 333 is old hat? I would love to play 111 right now. At first it would be mostly 111, but over time it would have more variety. More importantly there would always be a limited format to use your packs on to play Hex.

Diesbudt
07-02-2015, 08:28 AM
What about six months from now when 333 is old hat? I would love to play 111 right now. At first it would be mostly 111, but over time it would have more variety. More importantly there would always be a limited format to use your packs on to play Hex.

Not 6 months, too short I would still want 333 or not draft at all. I would prepare for 443.

I understand people want to "use" their packs. But there was a lot of time to. Now you can sell or open them, or save them in hoping they may find another use. Regardless, if this was the stock market after next week I would be saying "sell sell sell". Because Hex wants to keep moving forward and not back. And the playerbase has time to go before being big enough for multiple draft queues, especially since PvE will be the primary focus until set 4 after 3 comes out. So earliest use of Sets 1 and 2 again outside competitive/PvE would be potentially set 5, but probably set 7+.

And if the "blocks" rotate out where only the current + previous are used (as planned) for copmpetitive, come set 5, outside PvE set 1 & 2 lose more usefulness.

It is part progress, to keep moving forward.

Thrawn
07-02-2015, 08:31 AM
What about six months from now when 333 is old hat?

We should have been playing 443 or whatever it will be for two months at that point.

EntropyBall
07-02-2015, 08:32 AM
I have stacks of set 1 packs and I wouldn't touch it. I have all the set 1 cards I need, I played the format for months and months and months and I'd much rather play something new and exciting than something I got bored of last year.

One thing to keep in mind is that if this game blows up the way we hope it does, there will be lots of new players who don't have a playset of Set 1/2 and wouldn't mind opening those packs in a draft format and getting to experience that draft environment. Even among current, active Hex players, I would wager the vast majority do not have a Set 1/2 playset. So even a high % of forumgoers saying "I have a playset and would never play this" is not at all an indication of how it would shake out in the general population. I have a PP tier, do draft/sealed sometimes on top of that, and don't have a Set 1/2 playset.

Thrawn
07-02-2015, 08:44 AM
When we're that far into the game however Set 1 and 2 packs might not be even available in the store anymore and then you'd be greatly raising the cost of the draft finding the packs off of the AH.

israel.kendall
07-02-2015, 08:50 AM
I have stacks of set 1 packs and I wouldn't touch it. I have all the set 1 cards I need, I played the format for months and months and months and I'd much rather play something new and exciting than something I got bored of last year.

That's the awesomeness of it, you don't have to play it!

Koz
07-02-2015, 09:00 AM
That's the awesomeness of it, you don't have to play it!

Yeah, I don't get these people who are like "I'm sick of that format, so I don't want them to support it." Um...just don't play it then! But give us that DO want to play it the ability to do so!

New players, like myself, should be considered in this. I want to (and will) play in 3-3-3 drafts, but I also want to play in more 2-2-1 drafts to build my collection. Just because some people got bored with those sets a year ago doesn't mean everyone feels that way.

IMO, if the goal is to build the player base, then having drafts for older sets available will be a good thing to help with that.

The only upside is that if they only support 3-3-3 drafts, then maybe Set 1 & 2 stuff will drop in price in the AH (most of which are absurdly priced right now).

Thrawn
07-02-2015, 09:02 AM
New players aren't going to be sitting on "stacks of set 1 packs" which was what my comment was in reference to.

nickon
07-02-2015, 10:13 AM
Can someone explain to me or point me to some reference on what the set / block / ... structure is for hex? I dont have any knowledge of other tcg's but would like to know what to expect from future draft formats (e.g. Will it always be XXX, YYX, rinse repeat, or does it depend on how they want to design and balance the new set against older sets?)

EntropyBall
07-02-2015, 10:22 AM
Can someone explain to me or point me to some reference on what the set / block / ... structure is for hex? I dont have any knowledge of other tcg's but would like to know what to expect from future draft formats (e.g. Will it always be XXX, YYX, rinse repeat, or does it depend on how they want to design and balance the new set against older sets?)

They have stated the next "block" is 3/4/5 I think. Which means draft will go 3/3/3, 4/4/3, 5/4/3.

Diesbudt
07-02-2015, 10:37 AM
They have stated the next "block" is 3/4/5 I think. Which means draft will go 3/3/3, 4/4/3, 5/4/3.

Wrong. If my memory is right they said because of all they need to ad the first 2 blocks are 2 sets only. 1/2 and 3/4. Starting on 5 they want 3 set blocks.

Diesbudt
07-02-2015, 10:38 AM
Yeah, I don't get these people who are like "I'm sick of that format, so I don't want them to support it." Um...just don't play it then! But give us that DO want to play it the ability to do so!

New players, like myself, should be considered in this. I want to (and will) play in 3-3-3 drafts, but I also want to play in more 2-2-1 drafts to build my collection. Just because some people got bored with those sets a year ago doesn't mean everyone feels that way.

IMO, if the goal is to build the player base, then having drafts for older sets available will be a good thing to help with that.

The only upside is that if they only support 3-3-3 drafts, then maybe Set 1 & 2 stuff will drop in price in the AH (most of which are absurdly priced right now).

It would split the queue and not fire often as more will want to play the new 3-3-3 and get the new packs as rewards. They want to do multiple queues but have said not in the near future until game goes full release/player base built off over dungeons in gane

sukebe
07-02-2015, 11:51 AM
They have stated the next "block" is 3/4/5 I think. Which means draft will go 3/3/3, 4/4/3, 5/4/3.

as Diesbudt said above, this is incorrect. the second block will be just set 3 and 4 with the third block switching to 3 sets instead of 2.

poizonous
07-02-2015, 11:59 AM
YEah our next 2-3 years of draft formats look like this...
3-3-3
4-4-3
5-5-5
6-6-5
7-6-5

KingGabriel
07-02-2015, 12:12 PM
Kind of a bit late to bring this up, no?

Gwaer
07-02-2015, 12:15 PM
I hope they design set 4 to play 3-4-4 or 4-3-4. Last pack being newer feels better to me. Also knowing what you get out of the pack you only have one of can seriously inform your choices for the pack there is two of at least that's my personal opinion.

Its also possible that the plans to go to 3 set blocks may change. Though I hope not. I like drafting 1 of 3 different sets more than 2 and 1.

poizonous
07-02-2015, 12:26 PM
I hope they design set 4 to play 3-4-4 or 4-3-4. Last pack being newer feels better to me. Also knowing what you get out of the pack you only have one of can seriously inform your choices for the pack there is two of at least that's my personal opinion.


Id like to echo this

wolzarg
07-02-2015, 10:53 PM
Id like to echo this
The order should be based on how the set is designed honestly. That's not to say there couldn't be sets designed to be drafted x y x or y x x of course.

Gwaer
07-03-2015, 12:55 AM
The order should be based on how the set is designed honestly. That's not to say there couldn't be sets designed to be drafted x y x or y x x of course.

I did start off that paragraph by saying that I hope they design the sets to play like that.

wolzarg
07-03-2015, 04:55 AM
I did start off that paragraph by saying that I hope they design the sets to play like that.
Indeed you did my bad, worth reiterating i still feel.

Sparrow
07-03-2015, 07:40 AM
The order should be based on how the set is designed honestly. That's not to say there couldn't be sets designed to be drafted x y x or y x x of course.
That makes sense when it's a big set, followed by 1 or 2 smaller expansions, but if they're all about the same size I don't think it makes much difference.