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YourOpponent
07-05-2015, 10:50 AM
I've been trying to think of a way to keep old packs useful besides just for opening and I think I have a few ideas. I think it'd be interesting in the future if there was an Abyss Draft Format. Essentially what it'd be is you pick 3 non-primal set packs and pay a set platinum entry fee and use that for drafting. The prizes you receive could be either packs of the current set or set packs from the sets you used to queue up. This makes things a little more interesting from a drafting experience since each player would likely pick 3 different set packs to use.

Also if that ends up going well maybe an Abyss Sealed Format as well, but that might just end up causing people to just use 6 of whatever the current set is.

Thoughts and Opinions?

wolzarg
07-05-2015, 11:45 AM
Problem is many people will just use the cheapest packs available. This will make the format monotone and punish people who join with more expensive packs. Yes this is of little concern when packs differ by a few plat but in the long run differences will be much bigger most likely.

israel.kendall
07-05-2015, 11:59 AM
Doesn't really matter if people use cheap packs. And the ability to draft with them will increase their value.

wolzarg
07-05-2015, 12:09 PM
This does not hold true in the other game.

Diesbudt
07-05-2015, 12:16 PM
Already was talked about in another thread, bad idea. Won't work.

There shouldn't be need to keep all packs relevant in limited.

israel.kendall
07-05-2015, 12:58 PM
Yes was talked about before, great idea, would work.

Thrawn
07-05-2015, 01:00 PM
It's a great idea for 5 years down the road when we have another dozen or so sets to give it enough variety to be interesting.

wolzarg
07-05-2015, 01:06 PM
I think the main problem is sets are made to be drafted together if they are designed right. What would be more useful would be the ability to set up custom drafts with friends and then you can bring what ever you want.

Diesbudt
07-05-2015, 01:08 PM
It's a great idea for 5 years down the road when we have another dozen or so sets to give it enough variety to be interesting.

Not true, because one we get so far down (About set 7 --> 8) Sets 1 and 2 will be removed from the store. They will discontinue older sets.

Plus since the prizes are based on what is brought to the table, if someone brings all set 1s, their prize is all going to be set 1s. Would be a coding fun time for the game to figure out what and how many of each set to reward each player based on the packs they brought, and would even farther push the point that it wont be as popular than just reinstating X-X-X draft where X = cheapest pack. Because that is what most people will do anyway.

YourOpponent
07-05-2015, 01:15 PM
Not true, because one we get so far down (About set 7 --> 8) Sets 1 and 2 will be removed from the store. They will discontinue older sets.

Plus since the prizes are based on what is brought to the table, if someone brings all set 1s, their prize is all going to be set 1s. Would be a coding fun time for the game to figure out what and how many of each set to reward each player based on the packs they brought, and would even farther push the point that it wont be as popular than just reinstating X-X-X draft where X = cheapest pack. Because that is what most people will do anyway.

Unless they done it so that doing that format yielded packs of the current newest set. Also it's worth mentioning having this format available would make it possible for some friends to queue up simultaneously for something obscure such as set 2-5-7 if they wanted to years down the road or so forth...and just involving minimal communication/synchronizing to make that possible.

Diesbudt
07-05-2015, 01:22 PM
Unless they done it so that doing that format yielded packs of the current newest set. Also it's worth mentioning having this format available would make it possible for some friends to queue up simultaneously for something obscure such as set 2-5-7 if they wanted to years down the road or so forth...and just involving minimal communication/synchronizing to make that possible.

But they wouldn't do that. That would punish those that don't do the cheapest packs or save packs, especially since the point of limited is to reward what is brought to the table sets at 1.5x the platinum entered.


I get people want as much value for as little as possible, but as games move forward older things only go up in value to collectors, not for limited or using in game. (luckily PvE all cards* are allowed and thus there would even be value saving older packs).

poizonous
07-05-2015, 01:25 PM
But they wouldn't do that. That would punish those that don't do the cheapest packs or save packs, especially since the point of limited is to reward what is brought to the table sets at 1.5x the platinum entered.

This isn't true. Prizes are always based on the newest current set in any format on MtGO.

Playing an old Zendikar draft on MtGO today would still reward you with the newest set.

israel.kendall
07-05-2015, 01:26 PM
I think the main problem is sets are made to be drafted together if they are designed right. What would be more useful would be the ability to set up custom drafts with friends and then you can bring what ever you want.

I'm down for this. I'd love to have customizable everything, including constructed.

hex_colin
07-05-2015, 01:26 PM
It doesn't matter what is possible or not technically. You have to look at the big picture. Allowing us to use "older" packs is counterproductive to the main goal - making money! That's why it should never happen.

Folks should be less concerned about burning their old packs too. There will always be someone buying up old packs, and the rarer they become (since they'll eventually go out of print), the more valuable they'll be.

wolzarg
07-05-2015, 01:28 PM
This isn't true. Prizes are always based on the newest current set in any format on MtGO.

Playing an old Zendikar draft on MtGO today would still reward you with the newest set.
You sure about this? Wasn't the case for either urza, tempest or invasion.


It doesn't matter what is possible or not technically. You have to look at the big picture. Allowing us to use "older" packs is counterproductive to the main goal - making money! That's why it should never happen.

Folks should be less concerned about burning their old packs too. There will always be someone buying up old packs, and the rarer they become (since they'll eventually go out of print), the more valuable they'll be.

value has to be prioritized or they go under but shoudl still be something like making money => fun, not making money > fun. Having a open friend draft format is not going to cost them a lot of money especially if they don't have a entry cost and prize support just let people do it.

Diesbudt
07-05-2015, 01:28 PM
This isn't true. Prizes are always based on the newest current set in any format on MtGO.

Playing an old Zendikar draft on MtGO today would still reward you with the newest set.

Then why is comp draft prizes

(1 win)
1 set 1
1 set 2

Because it is based on the packs brought to the table. Think about it, that is how they want it.

poizonous
07-05-2015, 01:33 PM
Hmm I am pretty sure I mentioned MtGO. What Hex is doing seems different but I don't like it personally, they are cheating themselves out of money by doing it this way. If all they did was reward set 2, people would either A) have to buy set 1 packs from AH or B) Buy them from the store or C) The set eventually vanishes with no more product (Helpful to both players for card value and HexEnt because people will be forced to buy the packs to draft and spend more plat)

And also in Person tournaments (at least around this area of Florida) the winners can choose reward packs from any set the store is currently selling

And yes Wolzarg because now the older draft formats on MtGO are usually phantom drafts. You pretty much draft the old set, dont keep the cards but win the new set packs. I dont think they do non phantom drafts of out of circulation sets anymore, havent played on MtGO in about a year

Diesbudt
07-05-2015, 01:42 PM
Hmm I am pretty sure I mentioned MtGO. What Hex is doing seems different but I don't like it personally, they are cheating themselves out of money by doing it this way. If all they did was reward set 2, people would either A) have to buy set 1 packs from AH or B) Buy them from the store or C) The set eventually vanishes with no more product (Helpful to both players for card value and HexEnt because people will be forced to buy the packs to draft and spend more plat)

And also in Person tournaments (at least around this area of Florida) the winners can choose reward packs from any set the store is currently selling

Which is a local tournament held by the store. Something Hex wishes to provide is a way for players to create their own tournament for people to enter, thus they could offer whatever prizes. But to my experience in my past of TCG tournament playing, Most "big" tournaments like at Gencon and wherever (origins, worlds, etc.), the prizes are already set as it is controlled and sanctioned by whoever does that for that TCG game as "official" tournament.

Poetic
07-05-2015, 01:49 PM
I'm sure HexEnt knows what they're doing and have a plan for what's best for the health of the game. We're about to only be 3 sets in, let's let things play out.

You can't really compare MTGO to this as there's so many more active players for them.

poizonous
07-05-2015, 01:49 PM
You are missing a huge issue with this though... 8 player draft with random packs...
Player 1 - brings 3 set 7 packs
player 2 - 2 set 2 1 set 6
Player 3 - Set 1 Set 4 Set 5
Player 4 - 2 Set 1 1 Set 7
Player 5 - 2 Set 5 1 Set 6
Player 6 - Set 1 Set 2 Set 3
Player 7 - 3 Set 4
Player 8 - 3 Set 7

Your prize pool consists of - 4 Set 1 packs , 3 Set 2 packs, 1 Set 3 pack, 4 set 4 packs... etc

How do you determine which player earns which packs???

israel.kendall
07-05-2015, 01:55 PM
It doesn't matter what is possible or not technically. You have to look at the big picture. Allowing us to use "older" packs is counterproductive to the main goal - making money! That's why it should never happen.

Folks should be less concerned about burning their old packs too. There will always be someone buying up old packs, and the rarer they become (since they'll eventually go out of print), the more valuable they'll be.

My main goal is fun actually. I understand the point you're making, but this is a game after all and those packs all resulted from purchases / entry fees of some sort. So the money has been made on them already, plus the entry fee that would accompany this style of draft is money in HEX's pocketses.

Diesbudt
07-05-2015, 02:02 PM
You are missing a huge issue with this though... 8 player draft with random packs...
Player 1 - brings 3 set 7 packs
player 2 - 2 set 2 1 set 6
Player 3 - Set 1 Set 4 Set 5
Player 4 - 2 Set 1 1 Set 7
Player 5 - 2 Set 5 1 Set 6
Player 6 - Set 1 Set 2 Set 3
Player 7 - 3 Set 4
Player 8 - 3 Set 7

Your prize pool consists of - 4 Set 1 packs , 3 Set 2 packs, 1 Set 3 pack, 4 set 4 packs... etc

How do you determine which player earns which packs???

A) You just helped farther my point. The coding could be a nightmare to not make the tournament too high a value thus prizes must match pool.

B) What I mean is in this situation...

Player 1 only wins set 7 packs
Player 2 wins 66% set 2 packs and 33% set 6 packs (in the order of 6-2-2-6-2-2)
Player 3 wins 33% of each in the order of (5-4-1-5-4-1)
---(Newest set they put in first)---

Etc.

It is based on the player. Not the overall tournament. And the amount of packs they win is based on the already prizes. So say comp and first place is 5:

Player 1 would win 5 set 7 packs
Player 2 would win 3 set 2 packs and 2 set 6 packs
Player 3 would win 2 set 5 packs, 2 set 4 packs, and 1 set 1 pack

(etc.)

Diesbudt
07-05-2015, 02:03 PM
My main goal is fun actually. I understand the point you're making, but this is a game after all and those packs all resulted from purchases / entry fees of some sort. So the money has been made on them already, plus the entry fee that would accompany this style of draft is money in HEX's pocketses.

Most people who play limited at a high level is mainly for value, though. It gives people a thrill when they "earn more than they lose" and makes one feel they are achieving value/something more out of something less

Some backed multiple pro KS tiers. For all the free drafts.
Some are the ones advocating to never open a pack outside a limited game.
(etc.)

wolzarg
07-05-2015, 02:04 PM
Think what was suggest is you get what you bring. player 1 wins x set 7, player two wins x set 2 y set 6 and so on.

hex_colin
07-05-2015, 02:22 PM
My main goal is fun actually. I understand the point you're making, but this is a game after all and those packs all resulted from purchases / entry fees of some sort. So the money has been made on them already, plus the entry fee that would accompany this style of draft is money in HEX's pocketses.

My only goal is fun! I was talking about HEX making the most possible money so that they can keep making the game and supplying our fun... :)

RCDv57
07-05-2015, 02:28 PM
http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/3242904710680720086/EE1D08C3D17DDB8B57ADD85F0E3CD6320AD74691/

wolzarg
07-05-2015, 03:34 PM
http://i.imgur.com/IfmXFLm.jpg
Check and mate fine sir!

Sparrow
07-05-2015, 03:46 PM
It's a great idea with no downsides for the community and something that will certainly happen. AFAIK sets 1 and 2 will be on sale in the store for 2 or 3 more years. It only makes sense to have a format available where these packs can be used.

dogmod
07-05-2015, 03:53 PM
I think the simple answer is to make this format a plat entry only format. 7 dollars and when you enter random packs of random sets are generated.

Sparrow
07-05-2015, 03:56 PM
I think the simple answer is to make this format a plat entry only format. 7 dollars and when you enter random packs of random sets are generated.
Best suggestion yet. This removes any financial disincentive for Hex.

x78089
07-05-2015, 04:02 PM
It's a great idea with no downsides for the community and something that will certainly happen. AFAIK sets 1 and 2 will be on sale in the store for 2 or 3 more years. It only makes sense to have a format available where these packs can be used.

Let's be fair here, there are downsides and it might happen, but is by no means certain. Also we all better hope set 1 is retired in a timeframe shorter than 2-3 years. IMO it should probably cycle out as early as set 3 and no later than set 5. I am willing to bet we see set 5 in less than a year.

tehhuntre
07-05-2015, 04:25 PM
If they are trying to create an environment that emulates physical cards (which I think they should do), then allowing friends to draft whatever they want is the thing to do. I hope this is what they do.

poizonous
07-05-2015, 05:14 PM
I think the simple answer is to make this format a plat entry only format. 7 dollars and when you enter random packs of random sets are generated.

As much as i like this suggestion, i think the format might need to cost more than 700 plat to compensate for out of print packs, which should cost more than a basic pack

Sparrow
07-05-2015, 10:32 PM
Let's be fair here, there are downsides and it might happen, but is by no means certain. Also we all better hope set 1 is retired in a timeframe shorter than 2-3 years. IMO it should probably cycle out as early as set 3 and no later than set 5. I am willing to bet we see set 5 in less than a year.
On the timeframe, I don't expect set 4 to come out this year, even though it should, IMO. What I've read on the forums is that set 1/2 won't rotate out of the store until set 7 or 8, depending on whether the block following set 4 is two sets or three sets. So, I think 2 years at a minimum is a pretty good guess.

@ poizonous above -- couldn't it just be in-print packs only?

poizonous
07-05-2015, 11:02 PM
I thought the original suggestion was for a format with packs that were out of print as well

Gen91
07-05-2015, 11:11 PM
I think the simple answer is to make this format a plat entry only format. 7 dollars and when you enter random packs of random sets are generated.

Problem with this is, that this would let you purchase out of print packs.

israel.kendall
07-06-2015, 12:22 AM
I don't think any out of print lacks should be produced, but players should be able to bring their own out of print packs if they so wish.

Sparrow
07-06-2015, 12:37 AM
I thought the original suggestion was for a format with packs that were out of print as well
Maybe that's what the OP intended, I dunno. Nothing's going OOP for some time, though, so I thought he was referring to packs that don't have a queue dedicated to them.

WWKnight
07-06-2015, 01:42 AM
I used to do wacky drafts like this once a month with Magic at my local. It was a good way for him to sell old product.

I really dont see a NEED for this, as its a digital product, there is no reason to try and move it.

Having said that, I dont see a reason why they shouldnt, as eventually when packs are discontinued, whats left is a very limited number. If they want to let players draft with them, I dont see who it hurts. They aren't losing out on money, its money already spent.

YourOpponent
07-07-2015, 09:23 AM
You are missing a huge issue with this though... 8 player draft with random packs...
Player 1 - brings 3 set 7 packs
player 2 - 2 set 2 1 set 6
Player 3 - Set 1 Set 4 Set 5
Player 4 - 2 Set 1 1 Set 7
Player 5 - 2 Set 5 1 Set 6
Player 6 - Set 1 Set 2 Set 3
Player 7 - 3 Set 4
Player 8 - 3 Set 7

Your prize pool consists of - 4 Set 1 packs , 3 Set 2 packs, 1 Set 3 pack, 4 set 4 packs... etc

How do you determine which player earns which packs???

To answer your question I thought of 2 solutions for this actually.

1.) The set packs are distributed as only the current set.
2.) They are distributed to the players in accordance to how they done in the tournament (which I'm assuming would involve more programming) So for example if somebody won 3 packs and entered with set 1, set 4, set 5...then they would be getting 1 pack from each of them. If that same person were to win 1 pack they'd get set 5 (due to it being the most recent pack) or if they won 2 packs it'd be set 4, and set 5 (due to them being the most recent sets)


It doesn't matter what is possible or not technically. You have to look at the big picture. Allowing us to use "older" packs is counterproductive to the main goal - making money! That's why it should never happen.

Folks should be less concerned about burning their old packs too. There will always be someone buying up old packs, and the rarer they become (since they'll eventually go out of print), the more valuable they'll be.

I get what you're saying, but the thing is those packs have already been purchased so they already got their money from it. As well based on your suggestion what that instead would mean if somebody wanted to enter a draft tournament, but lacked the packs (years down the road) they'd likely sell an older pack and then buy multiple packs for the entry fee (possibly even from the store if it's from a new set) meaning that is money LOSS for the people which you are trying to help them GET money.

Hex_Colin I understand your reasoning for trying to not focus on having a use for old packs besides selling the packs as is or for the cards for them. However, a lot of the player base does enjoy doing something with their packs. To me it makes sense to have an idea such as this incorporated a few years down the road to help have a sink for old packs without just selling them to somebody else or opening the packs and getting disappointed that the contents aren't even close to worth the value the pack was. This leads me to the opinion that why not at least allow those people to open those packs in something such as draft where they can get some use for them in interesting situations such as Set 2, 5, and 9 which otherwise wouldn't be anywhere even close to a block theme designed.

As well it provides an extra challenge to those bored with the traditional drafting format and wanting to keep on their toes, and thinking about much more different intricacies and interactions than you would ever see likely in Constructed...or even a traditional sealed in that matter. Think of it as a difference from going for a generic pizza, and going for a pizza made by a gourmet chef that doesn't ever rush what he's making, because he goes for perfection if you will.

israel.kendall
07-07-2015, 11:07 AM
Prizes should just be same standard as regular draft IMO, not all those dif packs from way back.

Yoss
07-07-2015, 04:11 PM
It doesn't matter what is possible or not technically. You have to look at the big picture. Allowing us to use "older" packs is counterproductive to the main goal - making money! That's why it should never happen.

Folks should be less concerned about burning their old packs too. There will always be someone buying up old packs, and the rarer they become (since they'll eventually go out of print), the more valuable they'll be.

This.

And I wouldn't use this mode even if it were available.