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Vorsa
07-06-2015, 10:38 AM
Coverage! Though nothing to do with set 3, just a writer giving the game a go:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/07/06/hex-shards-of-fate/

There's inevitably a lot of confusion about Hex being a TCG not F2P, but still an insight into the first impressions of someone with offline & online card experience.

Axle
07-06-2015, 10:42 AM
Ignorance that our gold system is better than Hearthstone of course. It doesn't take long to get going with just commons and have a much better rate of getting new cards.

I guess that's a flaw in HEX though that it doesn't have something to help new players build well curved decks like MTG:duels and Hearthstone do. So they will lose in Arena often. We also have trap starter decks like the Shin'hare one that is really bad without buying other cards.

Also bad timing in complaining about f2p because once people can mass list commons, they're going to be much cheaper.

EntropyBall
07-06-2015, 11:13 AM
Also bad timing in complaining about f2p because once people can mass list commons, they're going to be much cheaper.

I'm not sure people who approach Hex from a F2P mindset are really looking at how they can find bargains on the AH. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, and the game even tells you "hey, you can use this gold to buy cards on the AH", but I feel like a lot of the reviews of this game are people who log in, get their free deck, beat the tutorial, play Arena a few times and then say "I'm not getting any new cards from Arena, and I'll have to grind arena for 5 hrs to buy 1 pack. I'm out"

It'd be a newbie trap, but maybe the store could sell a pack for gold that only has commons and 1 UC?

IronPheasant
07-06-2015, 11:24 AM
Or we can just wait until there is an actual PvE game in there instead of just a Hellish Auction House game.

Until then, there are better options out there no contest.


It'd be a newbie trap, but maybe the store could sell a pack for gold that only has commons and 1 UC?

Gold is supposed to be used to purchase some PvE cards when that set drops iirc.

This particular suggestion does seem to accentuate the existence of the

http://game-wisdom.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/PennyarcadeEx.png

situation though.

Ertzi
07-06-2015, 11:40 AM
Here we go again with the Hearthstone comparisons... I winced every time the writer mentioned 'mana' as well. Incredible that he thinks HEX is poor value for a F2P'er, when it might actually give the best value out of every card game out there for a grinder. Still, this is one of the better reviews out there. At least the guy has experience with TCGs and he points out some relevant things and also finds positives. However, I am still waiting for someone to get it right. Or just get it. I bet these articles sing a different tune after a few major patches. I feel like casual gamers will love HEX way more than reviewers will for some reason. How do they constantly miss how awesome HEX already is? Am I just crazy? I would pretty much give HEX 90 out of 100 already, simply because of the ambition, unique concept and playability. I mean, it is already amazing and we have seen nothing yet. Scratching my head here with all these semi-negative reviews.

Xenavire
07-06-2015, 12:04 PM
I see a lot of misunderstood concepts, misinformation, and poor communication by the writer. I think this is a case of the writer being keen enough to check it out, but not keen enough to go in-depth.

Still, it seems like quite a few issues the writer touches on will be fixed in the near future, so maybe we can let them know to give it another go at that time.

plaguedealer
07-06-2015, 12:12 PM
I would like another tutorial after the first frost ring completion that takes someone step by step through the ah.

Thrawn
07-06-2015, 12:23 PM
Seems to be a pretty fair review, certainly not seeing anything jumping out as hugely inaccurate or misunderstood.

bwarner
07-06-2015, 12:33 PM
F8 and F10 were the greatest steps forward in terms of handling priorities, but I don't think new players are aware of them or understand how to use them effectively. That's probably something that needs to be stressed in the tutorial.

CaravelBoomer
07-06-2015, 12:47 PM
The "problem" is that the reviewer is coming at it from the point of a new player and what the first 4-6 hours of playing the game are like, i.e. what's the hook?

I think, for the most part, he's pretty much bang on in what a new player will quibble with and also what a new player will find good

He's also correct with the F2P as it currently stands, you either pay upfront or you grind the same 20 fights constantly

Yes those of us "in the know" know a bit better but if you have to be "in the know" to enjoy the game and get the most out of it, that's not good for new gamers.

And comparisons to Hearthstone are inevitable. Hex is a digital TCG with a F2P aspect, what game would you compare it to, aside from The Game Which Cannot be Spoken?

Kaiba_Graysoul
07-06-2015, 12:58 PM
The parts of the game that will give a causual player enjoyment, level characters pve isn't in, the current build isn't the final build and atm a potentially great pve has a place holder it's not ripe for mass market yet but Hex is getting their patch by patch

N3rd4Christ
07-06-2015, 01:11 PM
Still, it seems like quite a few issues the writer touches on will be fixed in the near future, so maybe we can let them know to give it another go at that time.


If it's not there at the point of writing it doesn't matter if it's out next week. Remeber before Arena? We would always say "Arena fixes this."

Jist like any other player starting to play today would have to play with what's there not with what's coming in a week, month or next year.

cehu
07-06-2015, 01:16 PM
I see a lot of misunderstood concepts, misinformation, and poor communication by the writer. I think this is a case of the writer being keen enough to check it out, but not keen enough to go in-depth.

Still, it seems like quite a few issues the writer touches on will be fixed in the near future, so maybe we can let them know to give it another go at that time.

nothing is " near" in the development of Hex. If the writer is already 35 years old he might make it to see those fixes :))

Xenavire
07-06-2015, 02:57 PM
Seems to be a pretty fair review, certainly not seeing anything jumping out as hugely inaccurate or misunderstood.


It’s also running on a one-game-win default for its matches, which just isn’t good enough for games with this much variance. Every match of Magic is 2-out-of-3 or better with a fifteen card sideboard you can customise your deck with between games and sometimes even that isn’t enough for skill to win out over luck, even piloted by the best in the world.

And that was one of a couple of minor errors that showed he didn't do extensive research. It's not terrible to make mistakes like that, but I do hope he corrects them.

Overall its a good article, its just badly timed (in 8 days a few of those issues would be fixed), and somewhat incomplete in places (or with wrong information.)

Tazelbain
07-06-2015, 03:06 PM
I don't see how that's wrong. The trials are Bo1. The Frost Arena is Bo1. The PG is best of Bo1. All a new player sees is Bo1, so that's the default to them.

Xenavire
07-06-2015, 03:12 PM
I don't see how that's wrong. The trials are Bo1. The Frost Arena is Bo1. The PG is best of Bo1. All a new player sees is Bo1, so that's the default to them.

Because he makes it sound like that is the only option, even though Bo3 does exist? He even marks Hex down for not having it.

It is simply a lack of extensive research. Had he bought into any limited event, or even asked in chat, he could have easily found out there was Bo3. Even the deckbuilder has a tab for reserves (and he may not have realised what reserves were, but a single question, again, would have cleared up the confusion.)

So like I said, not a disaster, I just hope he changes the article to reflect the reality.

DocX
07-06-2015, 03:12 PM
Coverage! Though nothing to do with set 3, just a writer giving the game a go:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/07/06/hex-shards-of-fate/

There's inevitably a lot of confusion about Hex being a TCG not F2P, but still an insight into the first impressions of someone with offline & online card experience.

That confusion regarding Hex being F2P is there because originally it was pitched as F2P. Not enough messaging has been done to correct the impression Cory and crew initially gave. This is not the fault of the journalist, IMO.


Ignorance that our gold system is better than Hearthstone of course. It doesn't take long to get going with just commons and have a much better rate of getting new cards.

And how do they get new cards? Through Arena (which the writer cites accurately as being repetitive) or paying money to play in tournaments. And the cards players get through Arena can't be used when playing other players. Only through winning those cards along with gold and equipment, listing them on the Auction House, waiting for them to be sold (hopefully for plat... you sold them for plat, right?), and then using that currency to buy new cards or packs off the AH (you know you don't buy cards from the store, you buy them from the AH, right?) do you get cards. . . . and, realistically, if you're not into TCGs (or you enjoy playing Auction Houses) you stopped after the "winning those cards along with gold and equipment" step.


Also bad timing in complaining about f2p because once people can mass list commons, they're going to be much cheaper.

Again, dealing with the AH adds friction to the process for new players. They can get an ok deck from starter trials, but it's not going to be something that'll hook players and get them on the treadmill. Expecting players to jump through the multiple steps to accomplish this is an unreasonable expectation for the vast majority of new players.


Or we can just wait until there is an actual PvE game in there instead of just a Hellish Auction House game.

Ultimately this is the answer. The game's not fully cooked yet (even though the fact HexEnt is taking money and delivering new sets belies that fact). Until the PVE component is actually in there with more than a single encounter, there simply isn't enough content for folks who don't want to pay real money.

Part of me wishes Hex had gone back underground for the past two years, focused on crafting the full game (including PVE) and came back out fully formed from the head of Zeus... er... Cory. It's an unreasonable wish given the real world economics of running a startup game studio, but it's a nice idea in my dream land of rainbows and unicorns.


I'm not sure people who approach Hex from a F2P mindset are really looking at how they can find bargains on the AH. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, and the game even tells you "hey, you can use this gold to buy cards on the AH", but I feel like a lot of the reviews of this game are people who log in, get their free deck, beat the tutorial, play Arena a few times and then say "I'm not getting any new cards from Arena, and I'll have to grind arena for 5 hrs to buy 1 pack. I'm out"

This. And until that problem's solved, HexEnt is right to not call this "Open Beta" because it really isn't ready for everyone to come in and sample it . . . especially people who don't want to drop down hard cash on the game.


It'd be a newbie trap, but maybe the store could sell a pack for gold that only has commons and 1 UC?

It'd also kill any market there is for those cards on the AH. I make reasonable gold and some plat from selling PVP Commons and Uncommons. Making those grindable would kill that economy.


Here we go again with the Hearthstone comparisons...

Get used to it. Just like any sci-fi FPS will be compared to Halo, any military FPS will be compared to Call of Duty, any MMO will be compared to World of Warcraft. . . . Hearthstone is the 600 pound gorilla in the digital card game market today. Comparisons are inevitable. Unless and until Hex gets the rest of its features in place and make Hex more than "PVP with some AI battles and trading" (which, honestly, is a reasonable description of its state right now), this is going to be the best way journalists can communicate the idea of Hex to video gamers. Hearthstone is the most likely thing they've encountered that is in any way like Hex.


Incredible that he thinks HEX is poor value for a F2P'er, when it might actually give the best value out of every card game out there for a grinder.

What I got was the bad value came from the lack of enjoyment at playing the same few encounters over and over and over to do the grinding. Lack of enjoyment is an opportunity cost in and of itself.


I feel like casual gamers will love HEX way more than reviewers will for some reason. How do they constantly miss how awesome HEX already is? Am I just crazy? I would pretty much give HEX 90 out of 100 already, simply because of the ambition, unique concept and playability. I mean, it is already amazing and we have seen nothing yet. Scratching my head here with all these semi-negative reviews.

If you haven't drunk the kool-aid and bought into Hex, it's not an easy sell. The writer's spot on about the complexity of the game. It's going to be much more than a lot of folks will be able to handle, especially casual gamers, without a well-built ramp into the game to teach concepts, inculcate the players into the lore of the world and give them a glimpse of the greater game. Right now that's impossible because the greater game's not in place yet and the resources that would be dedicated to creating that introduction are instead busy getting PVE in place.


I see a lot of misunderstood concepts, misinformation, and poor communication by the writer. I think this is a case of the writer being keen enough to check it out, but not keen enough to go in-depth.

And, sadly, this is not much different than what a lot of new players will do. One thing I've learned is "If the customer's complaining, there's a problem that should be addressed. It may not be what the customer's complaining about, but their complaint is proof that there's an opportunity for improvement." Whether that improvement is in the underlying issue the customer's talking about or improving your messaging to prevent further misunderstandings by others is a decision to make. But simply saying "They're wrong" ignores a valuable source of information.

Did the writer mix up mana and resources? Yeah. I see folks do that here almost on a daily basis. Same thing with calling sapphire "blue" and calling ruby "red". One-game-matches are the norm in Proving Grounds and Arena though not in tournaments. He (I presume it's a he with a name of "Ben") stated his Magic background, so those mistakes are completely understandable, especially just coming to Hex. He also gave a cogent, reasoned articulation of the pluses and minuses of Hex as it is today. He called out the complexity as a barrier and as a source of depth (using the priority system as an example). I'd say Ben's got a good grasp of the high level view, even if some of the specific details are off.


Still, it seems like quite a few issues the writer touches on will be fixed in the near future, so maybe we can let them know to give it another go at that time.

You know what they say about second chances and first impressions. Games journalists are willing to come back, but players often aren't. Hell, Ben concluded his article saying he'd come back when the single player campaign is in the game later this year.


The parts of the game that will give a causual player enjoyment, level characters pve isn't in, the current build isn't the final build and atm a potentially great pve has a place holder it's not ripe for mass market yet but Hex is getting their patch by patch

Absolutely. And I am hopeful Hex will make it long enough to become the amazing game many of us know it can be.

DocX
07-06-2015, 03:13 PM
Because he makes it sound like that is the only option, even though Bo3 does exist? He even marks Hex down for not having it.

It is simply a lack of extensive research. Had he bought into any limited event, or even asked in chat, he could have easily found out there was Bo3. Even the deckbuilder has a tab for reserves (and he may not have realised what reserves were, but a single question, again, would have cleared up the confusion.)

So like I said, not a disaster, I just hope he changes the article to reflect the reality.

To follow on to what I said, I think this is a fair assessment. He got some specifics wrong and hopefully those will eventually be corrected. I think the overall impressions are reasonable, though.

Axle
07-06-2015, 03:19 PM
I'm not sure people who approach Hex from a F2P mindset are really looking at how they can find bargains on the AH. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, and the game even tells you "hey, you can use this gold to buy cards on the AH", but I feel like a lot of the reviews of this game are people who log in, get their free deck, beat the tutorial, play Arena a few times and then say "I'm not getting any new cards from Arena, and I'll have to grind arena for 5 hrs to buy 1 pack. I'm out"

It'd be a newbie trap, but maybe the store could sell a pack for gold that only has commons and 1 UC?

Ya I agree the lower rarity cards in Arena should be dropping more often for sure. There are no common PVE cards, perhaps those are necessary. Also the tier 1 of Arena (or the first few dungeons for new content) should be card/equipment that help the starter decks progress. There are some, but not a lot.

And I don't understand hating on the Auction and how it's complicated. Even from a new player's view. See the AH button? Press it. The filters and everything are all there and it works. It's something we're lucky to have. Very few games with trading even have it. Search your card and buy the cheapest thing there. However being able to search by minimum price needs to be more visible yes.

The game needs more guides in general linked to. There are so many player made guides in the community (Ex: KG's guide on the forums). I'm curious why the in-game client doesn't link to these when they would help so much for no cost.

israel.kendall
07-06-2015, 04:00 PM
Complaining about having to trade in a Trading Card Game. If someone doesn't want to trade for cards perhaps they need to play a CCG instead of a TCG. I dunno.

IronPheasant
07-06-2015, 04:05 PM
Yeah... this thread again. I love posting in them. It makes me feel like I'm not the only person pawing at the computer screen like a kitty.

Looking at cards that aren't in the game really help make the problem worse.

http://hextcg.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/LadyCassandra_Gear_Web1.png

http://hextcg.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/PrincessCory_Gear_Web.png

http://hextcg.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/SpectralAssassin_Gear_Web.png

I actually like the use of magenta rarity for monster-only cards over the current use of the alternate art frame. (http://coryhudsonjones.tumblr.com/post/83645967847/hex-beta-is-almost-here) It makes it way more freakin' clear that it's something we can't have.

LordGorchnik
07-06-2015, 04:45 PM
HEX is a good game but they need a lot of work in advertising their game to new players. NOT F2P players but just new players in general. As stated at the beginning, it's easy enough to learn, but I feel Cryptozoic is coming at it from a perspective that they want players who are going to throw down $1-1,000,000 after playing for a couple of hours and that just usually doesn't happen.

Not in today's overly-saturated self-entitled majority free-2-play market where instant gratification is wanted.

Biz
07-06-2015, 04:46 PM
just figuring out how limited works and understanding how close you are to breaking even is something that most people will never figure out.

this reviewer is way more informed than 99% of journalists who would play this game:

Tournaments can be bought into and reward you with packs, which can then be used to buy into more tournaments. At no point here do you want to actually open these packs just to get the cards

whether hex is or isn't too expensive varies from person-to-person. but it could certainly be a lot less confusing about how expensive it actually is, especially for people who haven't played MTG

Thrawn
07-06-2015, 05:59 PM
And that was one of a couple of minor errors that showed he didn't do extensive research. It's not terrible to make mistakes like that, but I do hope he corrects them.

Overall its a good article, its just badly timed (in 8 days a few of those issues would be fixed), and somewhat incomplete in places (or with wrong information.)

I forgave the 2 out of 3 thing because he said in comments he was referring more to proving grounds matches, not tournaments, and wrote that poorly. Outside of that being fixed with challenge matches I see very few things in the article that will be fixed with next weeks patch.

The review does reflect reality to the large majority of players and new people looking at the game.

plaguedealer
07-06-2015, 06:18 PM
I could be wrong but that website is pretty well regarded for it reviews. I have heard only good things from people that talk about rock paper shotgun.

Hopefully true pve is coming quick, digital tcgs are fast becoming the new mobas. I want hex to be league of legends not Infinite Crisis.

nicosharp
07-06-2015, 07:21 PM
Seems like a fairly accurate review. Nothing bad to say about it.

Should also help paint a sobering picture for the development team. This game, as is, is no Hearthstone slayer. The most transparent comments were about taking a TCG and making it digital, in regards to the seamless nature between turns. Just because the paper system can be translated to digital doesn't mean the added complexity of responding to cards during someones turn is a necessary layer needed for a digital turn-based game.

Subtle hits dropped as well about this roughly being a clone in some ways to MTG, not painted in a negative light, but not a positive one either.

Finally the F2P part of the review, and some of the comments at the end of the review show that the general community of gamers just don't get the marketing model. They may never get the model. The biggest thing that stands out here is how stingy HEX is to starting players in terms of progression. I personally think this is spot on and starts with how HEX is handling Starter Decks, which, despite the value promised to KS backers in owning them, needs to be revisited for the entire playerbase. Allowing players to start with more, and try more will go a very long way to improving the early game experience until they can figure out how to grind and use the AH and convert gold.

Just some thoughts...

TOOT
07-06-2015, 07:38 PM
The review does reflect reality to the large majority of players and new people looking at the game.

This.

Everyone here can criticize that Hex is misunderstood, or the reviewer goofs up something. But, the harsh reality is that it doesn't really matter how they arrive at their opinion, it's the fact we hear the same gripes over and over from outsiders who aren't already onboard. We can't expect them to know what is "coming soon" or assume that into their opinion when it's not there currently.

Voormas
07-06-2015, 08:40 PM
Article had some good points, I think people need to stop comparing it to a f2p game though - it's a TCG with an incredibly generous free starter kit :D

Mejis
07-06-2015, 10:12 PM
I could be wrong but that website is pretty well regarded for it reviews. I have heard only good things from people that talk about rock paper shotgun.

Hopefully true pve is coming quick, digital tcgs are fast becoming the new mobas. I want hex to be league of legends not Infinite Crisis.

RPS is one of the golden PC websites, both for solid content, excellent journalism and (generally) spot on reviews.
So, this does irk me slightly at some of the "errors" reported by Ben in the article, but upon reflection a lot of it can be summed up that hex really needs to improve/emphasise to new players exactly what it is and exactly what it isn't. With the wealth of ccgs on the f2p market, many many players may try hex and not realise what a Tcg is and how hex differentiates itself and what its market is. Given the author is knowledgeable of tcgs yet still makes some glaring errors (e.g. that hex is stingy and gold is worthless -- so far from the truth it makes me reel) then imagine how people coming in with no knowledge must feel.
All of us here are far removed from that perspective -- simply being on these forums means that you probably know what hex is all about -- so articles like this need to be taken very seriously as we think of the potential for growing the community and hex succeeding as I dearly hope it does.

I couldn't be more psyched about hex and where it is headed, especially with set 3 next week, but every outside article I read is incredibly uninformed, even ones such as the OP. I hope we see this change soon.

Xexist
07-06-2015, 10:47 PM
Given the author is knowledgeable of tcgs yet still makes some glaring errors (e.g. that hex is stingy and gold is worthless -- so far from the truth it makes me reel) then imagine how people coming in with no knowledge must feel.
All of us here are far removed from that perspective -- simply being on these forums means that you probably know what hex is all about -- so articles like this need to be taken very seriously as we think of the potential for growing the community and hex succeeding as I dearly hope it does.

I couldn't be more psyched about hex and where it is headed, especially with set 3 next week, but every outside article I read is incredibly uninformed, even ones such as the OP. I hope we see this change soon.

Totally agreed with this. Well said.

Kaiba_Graysoul
07-07-2015, 12:04 AM
I still think they either need to integrate a video tutorial into the how to play part they already have or at the very least put in some kind of link to their youtube channel on the front page but i do think the starter decks are a simple enough start for most but we need to have a system where people are linked up with players of their level in pvp so they dont get put off by oo i like your starter, meet AoD and VK.

Mejis
07-07-2015, 12:14 AM
I still think they either need to integrate a video tutorial into the how to play part they already have or at the very least put in some kind of link to their youtube channel on the front page but i do think the starter decks are a simple enough start for most but we need to have a system where people are linked up with players of their level in pvp so they dont get put off by oo i like your starter, meet AoD and VK.

What I think might be good in the interim before some more substantial PvE is in is to have some tooltip boxes on the home screen (I.e. same screen as where the Frost Ring Arena button is).
These could be a range of pretty hover-over box pop ups, or clickable pop ups that state easily digestible info that guides new players so they don't feel lost and don't feel like it's just pay to play from here on out.

e.g.
Ok, so you've made it through the starter trials... So what next?

Test your decks out in the Frost Ring Arena , win gold and cards and equip in the process. The further you get, the more prizes you win. [Insert obligatory first tiny slice of pve disclaimer].

But what do you do with the gold? Well, sell it to other players through mail safely. Or use it to buy cards on the auction house. Many cards can be picked up for cheap!

But how do I use the AH? [Link to another tutorial window] etc etc

Cernz
07-07-2015, 12:15 AM
well the article is not that bad, could have been better, but all in all its quite ok compared to others in the past :)

Gattou
07-07-2015, 12:32 AM
the F2P part is not that bad, i make 1 booster a day using golds...
in most of F2P like Duel of champions & Hearstone, you cannot even buy 1 booster a day and there are no Auction house and no trading so what else you guys want ?!
What i don't want is a Hearstone model.

Mejis
07-07-2015, 12:36 AM
I just read the article again and it's not so bad, certainly one of the better we've seen, but I do wish the author would read some of the comments and correct a few errors. The gold value is my biggest gripe. HEX is by far the fairest f2p model there is for that side of the game, and we're not even at full pve yet, but that is conveyed as the exact opposite in the article.

Anyway, I hope it at least attracts some new blood that stick around and say hi over here on these forums.

Cainhu
07-07-2015, 01:31 AM
As a F2P player, I have to say the article is mostly right.

Beginning experience is much more limited than Heartstone (free started deck for all heroes etc.), Infinity Wars (free starters, free random cards - sometimes booosters! - every day, bonus cards from challenges etc.), or pretty much any F2P TCG I know.

Some points I would mention about a starter/F2P experience :

- random PvP matches provide NO reward is strange, and discourages PvP for new players.

- random PvE in Provising Grounds gives maybe 100g if you win... which very roughly equal 1p ... 200 win for a booster. (yes, I know they are cheaper in te AH, but most newbies won't)

- arena is repetitive, and many times forces random RNG losses on you, which is not fun for anyone involved. And as the article says, as a free player this is your only chance early to gain anything.

-in most online games Starters are the cheapest (if not completely free) way to try out something new... in Hex those cost a very overcosted 1000p/deck. Now compare that to Proving Ground or even Arena rewards, considering that your free starter won't give you 20-0 arena wins, especially if you choose a weaker deck like the shin'hare. (yes with AH they are cheaper to assemble, but again, most new players won't bother)

So, there are many things to improve upon. I really like Hex, but I try to not look at it with rose-tinted glasses.

Cernz
07-07-2015, 01:57 AM
wos nix kost, is nix wert (c) muddi ;)

Cainhu
07-07-2015, 02:17 AM
wos nix kost, is nix wert (c) muddi ;)

Time is investment, and it's not cheap. :)

Regardless, most people will try the game before spend money... IF they do spend. Early experience is a deciding factor in that, and HEX have huge problems in this regard. I hope the new tutorial will improve upon it somewhat.

Warrender
07-07-2015, 04:13 AM
I think it's more important to get a view of Hex from a fresh set of eyes than it is to get all the details right about the game. How it is perceived is often more important than how it actually is. If someone new believes the game is stingy then CZE needs to work on that initial perception rather than brush it aside with "oh, that's not really how the game is".


https://youtu.be/QxfkWZPAUg4

nicosharp
07-07-2015, 06:47 AM
I think it's more important to get a view of Hex from a fresh set of eyes than it is to get all the details right about the game. How it is perceived is often more important than how it actually is. If someone new believes the game is stingy then CZE needs to work on that initial perception rather than brush it aside with "oh, that's not really how the game is".


https://youtu.be/QxfkWZPAUg4
I just attended a performance improvement training where they used that same JCPenny's scenario to emphasize "VOC" Voice Of the Customer.

DocX
07-07-2015, 06:47 AM
I think it's more important to get a view of Hex from a fresh set of eyes than it is to get all the details right about the game. How it is perceived is often more important than how it actually is. If someone new believes the game is stingy then CZE needs to work on that initial perception rather than brush it aside with "oh, that's not really how the game is".

This, absolutely. If your customer thinks there's a problem, there may be a problem. If may of your potential customers think there's a problem, there's absolutely a problem. Whether that problem is in the game mechanics, a lack of tutorials, out of game messaging, etc. there's a problem that needs to be addressed.

I'm optimistic HexEnt recognizes this. I am hopeful they are able to do something about it, but we'll have to see what issues they address and whether those are the right issues to correct the perceived problem. Crossing my fingers that they choose correctly.

Malakili
07-07-2015, 08:07 AM
The fact that he said priority is one of the biggest problems in the game makes me weep for humanity. Granted, he does mention its one of the things that gives the game depth and complexity and interaction. But if people don't have the attention span for this trivial passing of priority mechanic, I think we might as well pack it in now as a civilization.

israel.kendall
07-07-2015, 08:24 AM
You're never going to make all the "customers" happy, but that doesn't mean there are problems because of it. I despise Hearthstone, but that doesn't mean they need to change it to fit my idea of a good game. It means that it's not the game for me. I saw many good games ruined by attempts to satisfy everyone under the sun.

nicosharp
07-07-2015, 08:36 AM
The fact that he said priority is one of the biggest problems in the game makes me weep for humanity. Granted, he does mention its one of the things that gives the game depth and complexity and interaction. But if people don't have the attention span for this trivial passing of priority mechanic, I think we might as well pack it in now as a civilization.
His outlook on Priority is more about the aesthetic of how it plays in a digital game - waiting for other players to respond/etc. He has a fair point, but because this is an added layer of complexity, we can't have our cake and eat it too. In terms of speaking to a larger audience of gamers, I think this will strike a chord with many of them. I also feel it is a major reason behind why HS is so popular now. The priority system is a problem for turn cohesiveness. One that may never be able to be addressed given the design direction and depth provided in having it.

And to Torture's point above - true. At the end of the day, make a good game the way you want it to be made. It's important to listen to the customers, but don't let it hinder innovation.

EntropyBall
07-07-2015, 09:15 AM
The fact that he said priority is one of the biggest problems in the game makes me weep for humanity. Granted, he does mention its one of the things that gives the game depth and complexity and interaction. But if people don't have the attention span for this trivial passing of priority mechanic, I think we might as well pack it in now as a civilization.

I can completely empathize with him on this. I played physical MTG, then I played HS, then I played Hex. Early Hex was painful for me to play, because I HATED waiting to pass priority when I had nothing to do, especially in early turns. I was used the "draw, go" body language of playing MTG, and then speed and feel of HS for online card games.

The big thing that changed this for me (and I suspect the author didn't know about this), was the implementation of a Pass All Priority button. I simply would not play Arena without this button. In PVP, despite the fact that I rarely use it, being able to hit it on the first few turns of the game somehow makes a disproportionate difference to me in how enjoyable the game is.

Svenn
07-07-2015, 09:50 AM
This, absolutely. If your customer thinks there's a problem, there may be a problem. If may of your potential customers think there's a problem, there's absolutely a problem. Whether that problem is in the game mechanics, a lack of tutorials, out of game messaging, etc. there's a problem that needs to be addressed.

I'm optimistic HexEnt recognizes this. I am hopeful they are able to do something about it, but we'll have to see what issues they address and whether those are the right issues to correct the perceived problem. Crossing my fingers that they choose correctly.

The problem is that the game isn't finished. They are designing this with the complete experience in mind. The complete experience includes "fixes" to a lot of the major issues in the article (lack of f2p options, new player experience, grinding the same small content endlessly). While they have put in a few minor bits of temporary things "in the meantime" that hasn't been a focus. That means there are gaps in the current system that will get filled over time. That's what new players are missing, by no fault of their own. I really think some simple messaging in-game (or even as a news post on the site linked to from the client) explaining the future of the game and what is planned would really help new players get a better sense of what the game is and where it is headed (and that there will be a giant portion of free content).

This all goes back to Hex being an unfinished game. Yes, they are taking money so people will judge it compared to other things they could spend money on. There is no stopping that. This is my biggest concern at this point. I worry that too many people will try it or hear about it during this beta phase before PvE is even implemented and write it off too early. It's VERY hard to get people to play a game they've already written off.

Svidurr
07-07-2015, 12:49 PM
I tried looking at the game from the perspective of a first time player after reading this article.

I think adding priority skip buttons (to attack phase, end of turn, or all) on the right side of the screen (in the dead space between the two decks) would go a long way in helping new players understand what tools they have available to speed up the flow of a game. This is a feature that could be highlighted in a tutorial and would also be an element of the UI that could be turned off in the settings menu for advanced players who would rather use a keyboard shortcut.

I suspect that not knowing you have the option to pass part, or all, of your turn when you first start playing makes the game move at a particularly unsatisfying pace.

EntropyBall
07-07-2015, 12:51 PM
I tried looking at the game from the perspective of a first time player after reading this article.

I think adding priority skip buttons (to attack phase, end of turn, or all) on the right side of the screen (in the dead space between the two decks) would go a long way in helping new players understand what tools they have available to speed up the flow of a game. This is a feature that could be highlighted in a tutorial and would also be an element of the UI that could be turned off in the settings menu for advanced players who would rather use a keyboard shortcut.

I suspect that not knowing you have the option to pass part, or all, of your turn when you first start playing makes the game move at a particularly unsatisfying pace.

This is actually already a feature. You can click the phase you want to skip to on the phase "wheel" on the left.

Svidurr
07-07-2015, 02:08 PM
Wow. I had no idea that the wheel icons were interactive :)

TOOT
07-07-2015, 02:45 PM
Which is just proof that they need to be more accentuated or hopefully covered in the new tutorial.

Yoss
07-07-2015, 04:05 PM
Wow. I had no idea that the wheel icons were interactive :)

Even I had no idea. And I've been here from day 1 (if "day 1" is the end of KS).

Xexist
07-07-2015, 07:02 PM
Even I had no idea. And I've been here from day 1 (if "day 1" is the end of KS).

LOL I didnt know either.

Voormas
07-07-2015, 07:33 PM
Been playing since first day of Alpha and yea I had no idea - learn something new every day!

Svenn
07-08-2015, 06:40 AM
Just goes to show how little people read. ;) When they implemented the pass priority I remember it being mentioned in a bunch of places that you could either click the wheel or use F8/F10.

It does need to be highlighted more in client, though.

ziggarius
07-08-2015, 06:50 AM
The way combat damage is dealt is something else that really should be explained, especially if most of our potential players may be coming from Hearthstone. I remember watching Sithos recently where he used a combat trick thinking that the troops battle one at a time and he wanted both blocking troops to die. If he hadn't played that combat trick, he would have killed both blocking troops anyways, and the trick would have been available later on to win him the game.

RamzaBehoulve
07-08-2015, 07:17 AM
Seriously, you can click the wheel... wtf, didn't know :p

As for the review, I'd say from a new player standpoint, it's rather accurate, although he/she does make a huge mistake by trying to imply Hex costs more than Hearthstone for a new player. That's really inaccurate. It's slower at the beginning, but after a few hours, Hex will give much more to a F2P player than Hearthstone and the reason is simple : player driven Auction house.

Cernz
07-08-2015, 07:21 AM
hs is for the lols ;) you can invest money to get the same champ which already exists just with some new art and sound effects ... :) #value

purpenflurb
07-08-2015, 07:43 AM
It's slower at the beginning, but after a few hours, Hex will give much more to a F2P player than Hearthstone and the reason is simple : player driven Auction house.

This is, quite frankly put, not the case. Auction house lets you swap goods more efficiently, but it does not let you magically pull them out of thin air. It takes 2-3 hours to get enough gold for a pack based on top level arena decks, new players won't get anywhere close. And there are no easy daily quests for quicker resource generation for casual players. And currently, all competitive decks use at least one or two expensive cards. Hex is just not f2p, and probably won't be until full pve comes out. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it is the case.

The review does overall hit things well from a new player perspective. Hex is a great game, with a lot of interesting strategy for those who like card games. But it will be compared to hearthstone. And what made hearthstone so successful was that it appealed to people who didn't like card games in the first place. These people will not understand the appeal of many of the features that hex has that hearthstone doesn't.

Thrawn
07-08-2015, 07:49 AM
And what made hearthstone so successful was that it appealed to people who didn't like card games in the first place. These people will not understand the appeal of many of the features that hex has that hearthstone doesn't.

Which, for better or worse, is just likely to be an audience Hex won't attract. Hearthstone appeals to those people by being extremely dumbed in a way that Hex cannot duplicate without driving away people who enjoy the depth of the game.

Vorpal
07-08-2015, 10:24 AM
Didn't know you could click the wheel either.

Definitely agree that needs to be highlighted in the NPE.

EntropyBall
07-08-2015, 10:27 AM
This is, quite frankly put, not the case. Auction house lets you swap goods more efficiently, but it does not let you magically pull them out of thin air. It takes 2-3 hours to get enough gold for a pack based on top level arena decks, new players won't get anywhere close. And there are no easy daily quests for quicker resource generation for casual players. And currently, all competitive decks use at least one or two expensive cards. Hex is just not f2p, and probably won't be until full pve comes out. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it is the case.

I think you are mostly right, but I worry that new players are looking at gold gains in this way. New players should not be grinding for packs unless they are trying to do draft. To be better than HS, the player needs to take advantage of being able to buy specific cards. If I was a new HS player and wanted to build a cheap rush deck, I've still got to randomly grind packs and hope I get what I want or kill enough stuff to craft it with dust. In Hex, a few hours in the arena should net enough gold to buy 10 commons you want and a few UCs to flesh out the Orc deck you hopefully chose at account creation. If people see the value this way (I don't know how to make it more apparent), then the F2P PVE doesn't look bad at all.


Didn't know you could click the wheel either.
Definitely agree that needs to be highlighted in the NPE.
Glad I was able to teach so many people a new trick :-)

Crimguy
07-08-2015, 11:32 PM
I will chime in as I'm a noob, and read everything I could before diving in with Hex. My opinions are fairly uneducated, but I've played HS, Infinity Wars and now Hex.

At the outset I'd say I like Hex by a small margin over Infinity Wars. My biggest gripe with the latter is probably their abysmal card browsing system - unless you know each and every card by heart its near impossible to build a deck quickly. The lack of an AH at the moment is a downside for me as well (but they say it's coming).

I found the RPS article to be pretty on-point with my thoughts on the game, despite some inaccuracies, and what I feel are omissions.

I came to hex knowing full-well it was not F2P. However the progression from your starter deck is a pretty rough road, especially if you (like me) went dwarf and struggled to win those first games against the ai.

Even though it's not F2P, Hex needs to give you a lot more for free to get you started. I think getting all starter decks and completing the challenges with all would be a great start. With a 3rd set on its' way in a few days, it's not like we're talking about a large percentage of cards to give away. Allowing the new player to try all shards will have the added benefit of teaching the game and showing each color's relative strengths and weaknesses. This is something Hearthstone does very well - gives a bit of incentive to level up each hero and at the same time educates the player on what's going on.

Infinity Wars gives out a card a day - rarely anything too special, but it's still a nice touch and gives the player a reason to at least load it up every day.

IW also gives bonuses for playing 3 games each day - also a card. Again a nice touch.

Hex's greatest module is IMHO the auction house, and once I figured out I could build a deck relatively cheaply to take on the arena (I did a sly huntress/jags deck) I was quite pleased. AH needs to literally be shoved down the new player's throats. the player should be able to see the cards he doesn't have as well as the cards he does have. bringing up a card should give you 2 buttons - one that says "Sell at the Auction House" the other that says "Buy at the Auction House".

The Auction house and card browser should have a companion Android/iOS app so people can do these things without firing up the full game on the pc.

The gold rewards and grind with arena are fairly paltry IMHO.

And booster drafts - everyone seems to be of the opinion that this is what the newer players should be doing to build their collection. I get the reasons behind it but we need to keep a couple things in mind. First, a draft is a time consuming process. Unlike arena in HS, you need to dedicate a couple hours to get it done. I rarely have that kind of time - gimme something I can do in an hour! Second, it's FUN to crack open decks of cards, whatever TCG you may be playing. I feel guilty for having opened my decks, and that shouldn't be the case. Third, the price of entry for a draft is too high to get a large portion of the gaming audience to do it on a regular basis. I'm happy for those that are alpha backers and get tons of free stuff, but you will be very much in the minority at some point and crypto is asking the average player to fork out $7 to play a 3 pack draft - more depending on what type you're doing (less of course if you get your packs at the AH). I'm a professional with a decent income, but with a family it gives me pause to think this game could be asking me for $20+ each week to play in any kind of way. That's a lot by todays standards and should be revisited. Perhaps for a 3 pack draft 2 pack to buy-in and the other is provided for free.

Keep in mind these are all from the perspective of a new player I haven't amassed jack despite grinding through arena at least once a day for the past week. Oh - us new players don't clear all 20 levels every time ;-D. I'm usually at 3 strikes at about the 3rd boss.

I know a lot of what will differentiate hex from the competition is PvE, and is being envisioned to be the "main" thing by some (Most?). Dunno. I think the vast majority of non-Hex players who know nothing about the game are looking at it as a PvP game first and foremost. I know the promise is for both, but PvP brought me here and am fairly certain a lot of others are checking in with the same expectation, and not really looking at PvE as particularly important to them.

Finally - I have to say the client feels a bit slow. Slow to load up, slow to resolve moves. Playing cards lacks intuition and feels a bit unnatural, and is also prone to accidentally playing the wrong card - single click and you're screwed. These are the areas that I'm sure will be tweaked as time goes on so I don't harp on it, but it is the areas a powerhouse like Blizzard shines. The new user picks up on these things, as well as the numerous times where he has to reload the game because things stopped responding. Unless he's hooked like me he may well just move on to a more stable game.

If I had written the article for RPS I would have mentioned some of the above, but I would also mention that Hex has, from where I sit, all of the right elements in place. Interesting cards, interesting mechanics, both PvP and PvE, a place to buy and sell everything the game offers. And I think the author really overstated the complexity of the game. Mastery is of course one thing, but it didn't take that long to get the swing of things, although I learn something new every time i play.

Crimguy
07-09-2015, 12:07 AM
Jesus - I have to cut down on the amphetamines ;-D

TL;DR is it's a great game but the new player experience needs a lot of work.

LNQ
07-09-2015, 01:28 AM
Good post!

I agree that giving new players all starter decks would be good.

I also agree that "buy from AH" and "sell for AH" buttons in the card manager would be great.

In my opinion for the AH a bid/ask system for the cards would be much nicer than an auction house. A bid/ask system is essentially like the stock market: if you want to sell, you can either sell for the highest bid price or put it for sale at a price of your choosing and it will get bought if the market price reaches that point at some future time. This is much more user friendly as it will always give traders a price they can trade for.

This system would be especially useful for commons and uncommons where the potential volumes are much higher than rares and legendaries. Commons / uncommons are also the place where the need for a easy to use trading platform is the highest, as new players mostly trade the cheaper cards.

Mejis
07-09-2015, 03:04 AM
Jesus - I have to cut down on the amphetamines ;-D

TL;DR is it's a great game but the new player experience needs a lot of work.

Fantastic post. We need opinions like yours, coming as a relative new player. I hope (I'm sure) the devs have read all you wrote :)

fido_one
07-09-2015, 06:27 AM
Awesome post, Crimguy, welcome to the community. I think all of us hope CZE finds a way to slingshot new players into the experience that veteran players enjoy which is one of the richest, innovative video games on the market (not just in the card game genre). After reading posts like yours and the RPS article, I realize how often I forget my fears over releasing set 2 [and by extension at that time, set 3].

I was originally dead set against it, fearing the experience for new players (that experience was essentially the final blow that got me off of sol forge entirely). I did reverse my opinion on the release of those sets - I realize now that it had to happen for the existing and future player base - I just hope that CZE had a good mitigation strategy to off-set the confusion and challenges for new players such as yourself.

I'd love for CZE to address the 'new player issue' in an update on the main page. It doesn't have to reference the RPS article or anything, just that they are still committed to creating a seamless new player experience but that it simply isn't in to the extent that they want yet. Even though they have gone on the record many times saying how important a new player experience is, I do believe it is time for them to revisit it and say that they are aware [hopefully] that it isn't where they want it to be and they are still working on it.

I at first bristled at some of the inadequacies at the article but then realized, especially after reviewing this thread, that the article was much more right than wrong and is a needed flag for CZE and the community. So hats' off to Ben B. at RPS though I do wish he had underlined a bit more that the experience is very much a work in progress and get a statement from CZE where they think they are in the development of the new player experience.

Still, good stuff - I do believe if players like you hang on through beta to release that they'll find a full game whenever it arrives that will be more-difficult-to-get-into-than-your-average-game but a lot easier than it is now.

Once you break that new player barrier though? Oh man. Oh man oh man oh man. It's awesome.

EntropyBall
07-09-2015, 06:40 AM
I'd love for CZE to address the 'new player issue' in an update on the main page. It doesn't have to reference the RPS article or anything, just that they are still committed to creating a seamless new player experience but that it simply isn't in to the extent that they want yet. Even though they have gone on the record many times saying how important a new player experience is, I do believe it is time for them to revisit it and say that they are aware [hopefully] that it isn't where they want it to be and they are still working on it.

They are absolutely aware of it and working to make it better. Cory mentioned it last night in the charity stream, I believe in reference to this exact thread. Honestly, if we could get all new players to just look at the new player guide (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=43170) that KingGabriel wrote, that would probably help quite a few of them.

RamzaBehoulve
07-09-2015, 06:54 AM
This is, quite frankly put, not the case. Auction house lets you swap goods more efficiently, but it does not let you magically pull them out of thin air. It takes 2-3 hours to get enough gold for a pack based on top level arena decks, new players won't get anywhere close. And there are no easy daily quests for quicker resource generation for casual players. And currently, all competitive decks use at least one or two expensive cards. Hex is just not f2p, and probably won't be until full pve comes out. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it is the case.

The auction house trading system ensures you can start earning the cards you want with a minimum investment. Nobody should ever play a TCG with only grinding the money in mind. There is a T in TCG for a reason and why HS is only a CCG. The value you get from opening one pack in Hex is much, much higher than Heartstone ever will be. The cards you get have front value to trade in Hex. In HS, if you already have a card or want another, you lose 75% of its value when disenchanting it to try and craft the one you want.

I played both games intensively. My nearly 18 months collection in HS is nowhere near as complete as my last 3 months in Hex. A friend that started 3 months ago when I came back also easily made a few competitive decks out of nothing, but gold from arena to get started trading.

Hex requires some early time investment and understanding a few things to get rolling. That's where the devs need to step in and make that process as easy as possible to go through.

darkwonders
07-09-2015, 07:15 AM
Once more PvE content is released, I wonder if CZE will implement daily/weekly quests for the PvE content.

I know most people loathe that sort of stuff as it turns something fun into almost a chore because you feel like you're missing out on stuff if you don't constantly keep up with the game.

However, as much as we hate that, it seems to becoming more and more common for online games in order to keep people interested, especially with the rise of F2P games.

If a company wants to keep players coming back, they need to provide incentives. If other similar games are offering "free" stuff for continued loyalty, your game needs to do something to compete. Unfortunately it's no longer the superior product that keeps people's attention. It's the skinner box reward system that will get people to stick.

I can't think of any online game that doesn't reward you for continually coming back to play.

fido_one
07-09-2015, 07:19 AM
I can't think of any online game that doesn't reward you for continually coming back to play.

I think CZE said in the past they want to avoid that (which I totally 100% agree with without going into the details, other people can argue the 'daily prizes if you log in bit' for or against).

To your point, I don't know how economically feasible that stance is but I would love for them to keep it (beyond the Spectral Gardens, which is 100% fine as it's a one off super special KS card).

darkwonders
07-09-2015, 07:31 AM
I think CZE said in the past they want to avoid that (which I totally 100% agree with without going into the details, other people can argue the 'daily prizes if you log in bit' for or against).

To your point, I don't know how economically feasible that stance is but I would love for them to keep it (beyond the Spectral Gardens, which is 100% fine as it's a one off super special KS card).

Oh I know. Since everything can be tied back to Platinum, they don't want to give away stuff for free otherwise that devalues collections.

I'm just afraid that to stay competitive in today's market, simply having a good product isn't always enough. You need that hook to essentially "trick" people into wanting to play. It's how human nature works and why it works for other games.

superdax
07-09-2015, 08:00 AM
They won't need to add daily quests for PVE because as you progress in the PVE it gives you content like gold or equipements or pve cards. What would the quest add ? I believe that they need to guide a player into a more linear way and give them 4 starter decks, an intro to those decks with cards that are given after completing the tutorial (strong enought to face the arena) , 1 DRAFT TICKET once all the tutorials are done (not to give them at the beginning as people could open accounts just for the free draft). You need to equip the new players with enough things to taste it.. Oh and an introduction to the auction house should be in a video way to do things.

DocX
07-09-2015, 08:44 AM
I think CZE said in the past they want to avoid that (which I totally 100% agree with without going into the details, other people can argue the 'daily prizes if you log in bit' for or against).


Oh I know. Since everything can be tied back to Platinum, they don't want to give away stuff for free otherwise that devalues collections.

Actually, there's another reason to eschew daily rewards like that. Once you miss a reward, it becomes psychologically easier to not return. Having a daily "quest" as a return trigger helps keep players coming back day in and day out. But ironically, if the streak is broken, it makes it easier for that player to leave for good. Once rewards are given for a behavior, the motivation for engaging in that behavior become extrinsic (coming from outside sources such as the reward) instead of intrinsic (doing the thing because you like it). Once that change happens, it's much easier to disassociate yourself from engaging in the activity because of the external nature of the motivation. You can read more about this idea at http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/12/14/the-overjustification-effect/#more-1728 (specifically the study by Lepper, Greene and Nisbett on kids doing art; the Stanford University experiment with folks turning knobs; and the Rosenfield, Folger and Aldeman study at SMU).

Right now players get rewarded for being good at the game (completing arena runs, winning tournaments, etc) and randomly (opening chests). There's no direct reward for simply logging in (outside of the Lotus Garden which hasn't been implemented yet and, even when it's implemented, will be for a small percentage of the population that's much less likely to need retention tricks to keep them around). It's much better to reward the "fun" of playing the game than simply logging in. It conditions players to associate reward with the play and, through the joy of the overjustification effect, make themselves think they're playing "just for fun" instead of "for the reward".

I hope Hex never goes for long-term dailies for precisely these sorts of reasons. Gating content and rewards behind completion of other in-game content, sure. But dailies to get stuff to then use to complete content? Been there, done that and didn't like it (looking at you, Mists of Pandaria dailies).

fido_one
07-09-2015, 08:57 AM
Actually, there's another reason to eschew daily rewards like that. Once you miss a reward, it becomes psychologically easier to not return. Having a daily "quest" as a return trigger helps keep players coming back day in and day out. But ironically, if the streak is broken, it makes it easier for that player to leave for good. Once rewards are given for a behavior, the motivation for engaging in that behavior become extrinsic (coming from outside sources such as the reward) instead of intrinsic (doing the thing because you like it). Once that change happens, it's much easier to disassociate yourself from engaging in the activity because of the external nature of the motivation. You can read more about this idea at http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/12/14/the-overjustification-effect/#more-1728 (specifically the study by Lepper, Greene and Nisbett on kids doing art; the Stanford University experiment with folks turning knobs; and the Rosenfield, Folger and Aldeman study at SMU).

Right now players get rewarded for being good at the game (completing arena runs, winning tournaments, etc) and randomly (opening chests). There's no direct reward for simply logging in (outside of the Lotus Garden which hasn't been implemented yet and, even when it's implemented, will be for a small percentage of the population that's much less likely to need retention tricks to keep them around). It's much better to reward the "fun" of playing the game than simply logging in. It conditions players to associate reward with the play and, through the joy of the overjustification effect, make themselves think they're playing "just for fun" instead of "for the reward".

Thanks for this Doc, I completely agree in that your point has turned me away from many F2P games (no longer caring about it when I lose those daily award increases because life made me skip a day), including CCG games like Duels of Champions (among other reasons, like bots and a horrid grind).

Ertzi
07-09-2015, 09:33 AM
Thanks for this Doc, I completely agree in that your point has turned me away from many F2P games (no longer caring about it when I lose those daily award increases because life made me skip a day), including CCG games like Duels of Champions (among other reasons, like bots and a horrid grind).

I totally quit Duels of Champions for that exact reason. I really liked the game mechanics and art too. Just hated the business model.

Thrawn
07-09-2015, 10:10 AM
If the final product of Hex isn't a good enough game to keep players without daily incentives, I wouldn't care if it fails at that point anyways. I backed Hex to play something new and unique, not the same old crap everyone else is churning out and am happy that Cory took a hard stance against F2P standards like that.

jimbeem
07-09-2015, 10:23 AM
If the final product of Hex isn't a good enough game to keep players without daily incentives, I wouldn't care if it fails at that point anyways. I backed Hex to play something new and unique, not the same old crap everyone else is churning out and am happy that Cory took a hard stance against F2P standards like that.

Digital magic the gathering is definitely new and unique.

Warrender
07-09-2015, 10:33 AM
There's a reason that Corey is hesitant to call this game F2P even though it can very well be played like that. There is a well-deserved bias that people have towards F2P and its usual, money-grubbing shenanigans.

So any changes they might have to make have to be subtle and inclusive. I doubt very much the Kickstarters and people who spent/plan to spend money on this game will tolerate any of the happy horseplay that F2P games use to wring money out of their players.

malloc31
07-09-2015, 11:12 AM
Actually, there's another reason to eschew daily rewards like that. Once you miss a reward, it becomes psychologically easier to not return. Having a daily "quest" as a return trigger helps keep players coming back day in and day out. But ironically, if the streak is broken, it makes it easier for that player to leave for good. Once rewards are given for a behavior, the motivation for engaging in that behavior become extrinsic (coming from outside sources such as the reward) instead of intrinsic (doing the thing because you like it). Once that change happens, it's much easier to disassociate yourself from engaging in the activity because of the external nature of the motivation. You can read more about this idea at http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/12/14/the-overjustification-effect/#more-1728 (specifically the study by Lepper, Greene and Nisbett on kids doing art; the Stanford University experiment with folks turning knobs; and the Rosenfield, Folger and Aldeman study at SMU).

Right now players get rewarded for being good at the game (completing arena runs, winning tournaments, etc) and randomly (opening chests). There's no direct reward for simply logging in (outside of the Lotus Garden which hasn't been implemented yet and, even when it's implemented, will be for a small percentage of the population that's much less likely to need retention tricks to keep them around). It's much better to reward the "fun" of playing the game than simply logging in. It conditions players to associate reward with the play and, through the joy of the overjustification effect, make themselves think they're playing "just for fun" instead of "for the reward".

I hope Hex never goes for long-term dailies for precisely these sorts of reasons. Gating content and rewards behind completion of other in-game content, sure. But dailies to get stuff to then use to complete content? Been there, done that and didn't like it (looking at you, Mists of Pandaria dailies).

I've played games where I wanted to quit because of the daily log on system. these where games where if you missed a day you got no reward the next day and had to start building up log in streaks. Any system where you are penalized for breaking a log on streak is very frustrating.

But I have also played games with enjoyable log on benefits. I have seen free spins on wheels of prizes once a day (independent of when you logged on last). Or rewards for reaching different total number of days played (and they don't have to be consecutive).

Crimguy
07-09-2015, 11:39 AM
Meh - one common card per login is hardly going to break the system - it's just a warm-fuzzy feeling you get when you sign on. It's also nice as a new player because every time you log on it's an introduction to a card you may never have examined before. It may give you ideas, fit perfectly into that deck you were working on, etc. In some cases it can lead someone to the auction house, where they look to buy a card that synergizes with the card they just received. It can - just to play devil's advocate - spur a player to spend money they might not otherwise have done.

The daily quest system for a game like Hearthstone really doesn't fit into Hex because the cards in HS don't have any actual value, and it would doubtlessly devalue the cards people own as the system gets flooded with the rewards people earn every day. Not the solution.

However, with the current prices and system, I'm almost inclined to recommend Hex move to a monthly fee structure. I'm spitballing here btw and haven't thought about it for more than a few minutes. But to me, a yearly subscription at $9.99 a month yielding, e.g., one pack a week plus one draft per month would make financial sense and keep people like me in the game. It wouldn't stop me from spending additional $$ every month as well in AH or on packs for drafts etc...

Keep in mind the cards value for Hex as a company is different than the end user. As a business they look at (ignoring the fun factor of course) 1) how much are we bringing in a month, 2) how much are we spending on development etc., and 3) how will change X affect the bottom line.

Another thing that needs to be done is to revamp the launcher - and this could really help those new players. Hardly novel, but what I envision are buttons to represent many of things that were discussed to help the new player. There could be a window with a twitch stream that can be clicked on (it was very important for me the past week watching those players who stream. Shame the resolution doesn't really let you see the card text, but I think at the moment Twitch is potentially a huge asset to Hex, and a big problem with IW who rarely have anyone online). Links to how-to's and guides. Show a weekly challenge - for 100P complete a PvE quest and receive a reward. News about competitions - the list is endless, and all thrown into the players face the moment they click on the Hex icon.

Last night I was told about the charity stream on twitch. I found out because a mod/dev posted a link in chat. If it was mentioned on the front page of the game window I never saw it, which shouldn't happen. I'm old and my eyes don't work too well, so there's that factor as well ;-D

ziggarius
07-09-2015, 11:46 AM
Crimguy you just suggested what the old VIP system was but with MORE value than the old system gave which had a negative impact on the value of packs. There will be a new VIP system soon

Crimguy
07-09-2015, 12:06 PM
Ok. There has to be a balance achieved so that any system doesn't destroy the value of the cards people have. If it goes down a bit, so what. If every card is suddenly worth $0.20 or less, there's a problem. A tweaking on the back end can also play a part - how rare is a rare card? Perhaps change the balance in a pack so that the odds of getting legendaries etc are decreased? Maybe adding yet another level of rarity could change things for the better.

Yoss
07-09-2015, 01:44 PM
@Crimguy: great post, thanks

And booster drafts - everyone seems to be of the opinion that this is what the newer players should be doing to build their collection. I get the reasons behind it but we need to keep a couple things in mind. First, a draft is a time consuming process. Unlike arena in HS, you need to dedicate a couple hours to get it done. I rarely have that kind of time - gimme something I can do in an hour! Second, it's FUN to crack open decks of cards, whatever TCG you may be playing. I feel guilty for having opened my decks, and that shouldn't be the case. Third, the price of entry for a draft is too high to get a large portion of the gaming audience to do it on a regular basis. I'm happy for those that are alpha backers and get tons of free stuff, but you will be very much in the minority at some point and crypto is asking the average player to fork out $7 to play a 3 pack draft - more depending on what type you're doing (less of course if you get your packs at the AH). I'm a professional with a decent income, but with a family it gives me pause to think this game could be asking me for $20+ each week to play in any kind of way. That's a lot by todays standards and should be revisited. Perhaps for a 3 pack draft 2 pack to buy-in and the other is provided for free.
It may just be an education problem. Drafts only cost full price (which is significantly less than $7, by the way) the very first time. After that, one can feed the cards and prize packs back into the process to reduce the cost of the next draft. I wouldn't be surprised if the true recurring cost of drafting was actually 100p or less. And that 100p is not the same as $1 either. It will never be said officially by HXE, but players can buy plat at roughly 40% discount by going through unofficial channels.

Yoss
07-09-2015, 01:54 PM
Crimguy you just suggested what the old VIP system was but with MORE value than the old system gave which had a negative impact on the value of packs. There will be a new VIP system soon

While the particular suggestion may not work, there can be a subscription model that does work without breaking things like the old VIP did. The old VIP system had multiple problems: (1) it didn't require a large enough commitment to qualify for discounts and (2) the discounts were too large. They could easily rerelease the exact same VIP system (pack per week, VIP ticket per month) with a minimum buy in of 1 year and with a price increase (maybe 20% discount instead of 50% like before).

ziggarius
07-09-2015, 11:29 PM
While the particular suggestion may not work, there can be a subscription model that does work without breaking things like the old VIP did. The old VIP system had multiple problems: (1) it didn't require a large enough commitment to qualify for discounts and (2) the discounts were too large. They could easily rerelease the exact same VIP system (pack per week, VIP ticket per month) with a minimum buy in of 1 year and with a price increase (maybe 20% discount instead of 50% like before).

Not opposed to a vip system at all. I'd prefer the system to provide alternative benefits to discounted packs though. I'm pretty sure we'll end up liking whatever hex ent comes up with though cause it is something they said is coming.

Warrender
07-22-2015, 03:31 PM
RPS just put up another article about the set 3 update:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/07/22/twist-twist-stick-hex-shards-of-fates-third-card-set-out/

MuffLord4
07-22-2015, 03:46 PM
People actually read anti-gamer websites?

Mejis
07-22-2015, 03:48 PM
RPS just put up another article about the set 3 update:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/07/22/twist-twist-stick-hex-shards-of-fates-third-card-set-out/

Thanks. Great to see more coverage from RPS. Hope it draws in even more New players.

Yoss
07-22-2015, 04:18 PM
free-to-play virtual CCG
HXE, please help these sites get your branding right. Is Hex still F2P or did Cory change it to "free to try"? Aren't we a TCG not a CCG?

Phenteo
07-22-2015, 04:56 PM
HXE, please help these sites get your branding right. Is Hex still F2P or did Cory change it to "free to try"? Aren't we a TCG not a CCG?

We can email press sites to help them with terminology. But the issue is, we don't control the press and what they say.

Mejis
07-22-2015, 05:33 PM
We can email press sites to help them with terminology. But the issue is, we don't control the press and what they say.

I also think that a lot of sites (and people) treat CCG and TCG to mean the same thing now (not that I condone that, I think it's important in this digital era that the two be used properly). A lot of the lay public (I mean non-TCG enthusiasts) would see either word and not make any distinction. Press reporting incorrectly may reflect on that and/or the writer themselves not knowing the distinction.

Yoss
07-22-2015, 05:34 PM
We can email press sites to help them with terminology. But the issue is, we don't control the press and what they say.

As the branding folks at my place say, all you can do is "join the conversation". :)

MuffLord4
07-23-2015, 01:15 AM
We can email press sites to help them with terminology. But the issue is, we don't control the press and what they say.

Hex is still freetoplay imo as you can earn boosters by playing arena.

starwing
07-23-2015, 02:02 AM
Ignorance that our gold system is better than Hearthstone of course. It doesn't take long to get going with just commons and have a much better rate of getting new cards.

I guess that's a flaw in HEX though that it doesn't have something to help new players build well curved decks like MTG:duels and Hearthstone do. So they will lose in Arena often. We also have trap starter decks like the Shin'hare one that is really bad without buying other cards.

Also bad timing in complaining about f2p because once people can mass list commons, they're going to be much cheaper.

I wanted to point out that Magic: Duels of the Planeswalkers is a bad example because the player is given a crap starter deck and they have to play through the entire AI campaign to unlock the cards they paid for, if they purchased the special or premium game that includes the more powerful cards. I fell for that nonsense last year (because I was a little impatient waiting for HEX and the idea of HEX in the back of my brain was making me really eager to play a TCG again!) With that game, by the time I unlocked the content I owned, I didn't even want to play the game anymore (it has a crap UI on top of everything else).

Ertzi
07-23-2015, 05:10 AM
No mention of chests at all? I would think this feature was worth highlighting, as that would surely intrigue new players. The update makes it sounds like AoM just added a bunch of cards and authenticator support. Lame.

MuffLord4
07-23-2015, 05:28 AM
Why do people here abandon the FreeToPlay concept even tho this game is more F2P than hearthstone currently?

Cainhu
07-23-2015, 05:29 AM
I think chests won't really affect new players that much. Grinding gold for rolls, and finally getting a semi-useless equipment currently is a very possible way to first meet the chest system if you are a newbie. (of course, you may get lcky and get something more usefull)

On the other hand Set 3 is more troop focused with fun interactions, and I think a very good intro-point for new players.

Warrender
07-23-2015, 05:31 AM
BTW, I've also started the a Hex thread on the RPS forums but so far I'm the only one posting on there. :(

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?24907-Hex-Shards-of-Fate-MMOTCG

MuffLord4
07-23-2015, 05:31 AM
The chests are out of question for new players and feel like spinning is only worth it if you're a paying customer that buys boosters with money.

MuffLord4
07-23-2015, 05:31 AM
BTW, I've also started the a Hex thread on the RPS forums but so far I'm the only one posting on there. :(

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?24907-Hex-Shards-of-Fate-MMOTCG

RPS pretty much died off after the whole gamergate thing so really no wonder.

DocX
07-23-2015, 06:09 AM
We can email press sites to help them with terminology. But the issue is, we don't control the press and what they say.

Seriously? And you guys are trying to take over the world? You should know that taking over the free press and getting them to deliver your message is vital in any plan for world domination!

MuffLord4
07-23-2015, 07:00 AM
Seriously? And you guys are trying to take over the world? You should know that taking over the free press and getting them to deliver your message is vital in any plan for world domination!

Only like 2% of the sales are influenced by press-hype of these small press sites anyways. People don't trust them anymore.


Look at this "review"

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/05/21/sunset-review-tale-of-tales/

Eierdotter
07-23-2015, 07:57 AM
really liked the read, was honest and true.