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Axle
07-07-2015, 10:30 AM
Just did a test and got 300 gold from each of my wins in tier 2.

Get to that farming!

Khazrakh
07-07-2015, 10:34 AM
Just did a test and got 300 gold from each of my wins in tier 2.

Get to that farming!

Woot! :)

Kaiba_Graysoul
07-07-2015, 11:03 AM
anybody getting lag?

N3rd4Christ
07-07-2015, 11:18 AM
First run that I started before 10PM when I finished I got 9500+3300 RL Bonus

Tazelbain
07-07-2015, 11:54 AM
It's going to be very interesting to see what happens to the price gold for the next 2 weeks.

striderz
07-07-2015, 12:24 PM
Gold can only go up, this is the last week for AA in the shop & new chest rolls next week.

plaguedealer
07-07-2015, 12:34 PM
Chests are going to eat gold like candynot to mention EA.

Eetabee
07-07-2015, 12:36 PM
Don't forget stardust. I don't care for extended art at all but I am assuming all my gold earned this week will go towards chest spins.

I agree that this is just aiming to keep gold around where it is now so it doesn't jump through the roof next week. Or it might fall this week and then jump back up next.

bwarner
07-07-2015, 01:06 PM
It would be kind of silly for the value of gold to go down for one week. If sellers start trying to price gouge to take advantage of people having access to more gold, buyers should just hold onto their gold for the week, at which point sellers will be forced to go back to more reasonable prices.

Mahes
07-07-2015, 04:04 PM
I just did a perfect run and got 9200. That is not a 50% bonus. Usually get 7200 for a perfect run which would equal 10,800 gold with a 50% increase. Must not include the bosses.

katkillad
07-07-2015, 05:18 PM
I just did a perfect run and got 9200. That is not a 50% bonus. Usually get 7200 for a perfect run which would equal 10,800 gold with a 50% increase. Must not include the bosses.

Did you scroll to the bottom of your rewards? Sometimes gold is in two spots, the run I did gave the 50% bonus.

Mahes
07-07-2015, 06:21 PM
My total gold did not go up above expected, based on what I saw as the reward. It might not be the bosses, but instead the bonus bags that are not getting any kind of gold boost.

YourOpponent
07-07-2015, 06:25 PM
My total gold did not go up above expected, based on what I saw as the reward. It might not be the bosses, but instead the bonus bags that are not getting any kind of gold boost.

Keep in mind the gold bonus is only for new arena runs and not for arena runs you were currently on before the bonus was live.

Saeijou
07-07-2015, 08:26 PM
it would be fun, if i wouldnt have played the arena 200 times or so... T.T

Valnir
07-08-2015, 01:19 AM
Any info on Uruunaz loot? Would be nice to hunt it down again this week! :cool:

Khazrakh
07-08-2015, 03:30 AM
Any info on Uruunaz loot? Would be nice to hunt it down again this week! :cool:

Phenteo said it should get the 50% as well but he wasn't completely sure about it.

Valnir
07-08-2015, 05:08 AM
Phenteo said it should get the 50% as well but he wasn't completely sure about it.

1,5 playsets of common AAs as an arena reward sounds fair enough :)

xou
07-08-2015, 05:24 AM
I can 100% confirm that Uruunaz gives 150k gold :o

Skirovik
07-08-2015, 06:27 AM
I can 100% confirm that Uruunaz gives 150k gold :o

Omg I hate you! <3

RamzaBehoulve
07-08-2015, 07:07 AM
This is just a timed event to celebrate the set 3 release and the chests/EA. This will have absolutely zero effect on the value of gold post patch.

Vorpal
07-08-2015, 10:23 AM
People are going to be scrambling to buy the AA's before they vanish. They are going to be rolling their set 1 and 2 chests so they can open them, and stock piling gold to roll and open the new set 3 chests.

I do not at all expect a 50% increase in gold drop rates for a single week to make gold less valuable.

In fact, more gold might get spent(consumed) in this two week time span than in any other - curious if HexEnt has the figure on that.

striderz
07-08-2015, 11:45 AM
Need to bring back gold for playing the paid Tournaments, like use to be. To much gold sink not enough of it to go around.

plaguedealer
07-08-2015, 11:51 AM
I want gold to be valuable. It helps the f2p folks and could be a indirect way for hex to make some money.

N3rd4Christ
07-08-2015, 12:02 PM
The way I see it is that Gold will be around forever without having to spend any real cash on it. So if you need something then buy the gold to get it otherwise just be patient and grind it out.

Gold AAs will be gone so sure buy gold if you can't grind enough before they vanish. But as far as EA and chests... They will always be there so why waste plat to get gold. Just wait for gold to depreciate and then buy.

plaguedealer
07-08-2015, 12:06 PM
The way I see it is that Gold will be around forever without having to spend any real cash on it. So if you need something then buy the gold to get it otherwise just be patient and grind it out.

Gold AAs will be gone so sure buy gold if you can't grind enough before they vanish. But as far as EA and chests... They will always be there so why waste plat to get gold. Just wait for gold to depreciate and then buy.

How is gold going to depreciate in the next four months? I think it can only go up in value without some major gold faucet, which I hope does not happen.

The only way I see gold depreciating is if the chest contents are poor and I don't think that will happen.

Tazelbain
07-08-2015, 12:21 PM
EA is a very different sink than AA Commons. Stardust drops in a lot places. AA Common sink has a time limit. Those two factors lead me believe EA will be a weaker sink.

The WoF sink is a wild card. Depending on wants in the chests it could get weaker or stronger.

Really many things pulling the price of gold in both directions.

N3rd4Christ
07-08-2015, 01:04 PM
How is gold going to depreciate in the next four months? I think it can only go up in value without some major gold faucet, which I hope does not happen.

The only way I see gold depreciating is if the chest contents are poor and I don't think that will happen.

Simple. More free players = more gold. The more competition between them the lower the gold ratio they will have to exchange at.

plaguedealer
07-08-2015, 01:16 PM
Simple. More free players = more gold. The more competition between them the lower the gold ratio they will have to exchange at.
Not to make this an argument just a debate.

I am not sure if set 3 will bring in a whole bunch of f2p play people. Alot of the pay people will be drafting and not have time to play arena. I will want to roll my set 3 chests because there will be value there.

If the chests have great things inside, gold will skyrocket. That may cause alot of people to start grinding the arena (bringing it lower in value).

I can see a depreciation in gold when campaign hits. However, there may also be new gold sinks when that comes out.

wasichu
07-08-2015, 01:26 PM
after this week of arena grinding I don't wanna see arena for a long while. I hope dungeons aren't a grind for gold. I don't ever think I will have enuff gold to open my chest much less get AA's and full arts. After a hour of arena I loath it.

Malcolm
07-09-2015, 01:11 AM
Fear of gold over-inflation is premature on a stupefying level.
Along with the 50% "bonus" that got turned on is also an enhanced version of AI for each and every AI deck (including the Tier1 decks, I tested them each) and a significant tweaking to the draw engine that occurs for players (please, before you start in on it: it happens. It's part of the virtual experience, and it's part of the system controls. Normally I have no gripe with it).

So long story short: been stomping Xarlox with red-rush Orcs, or dwarf affinity for last couple of months. Tonight: smacked down so hard to the degree that not only was top-decking by the AI happening, it was set to exact parameters.
Example: 2 games in a row I have Xarlox down to "exactly" the health that a Boulder Toss will kill him with my 1 troop on the board; both games he mystically draws Inquisition when he needs it and pow game-over.
Thats not rng. Thats planning. 1x is rng.

Looking over timing as well and here is the comparison:
Pre 50% buff: Arena clear = 35ish min, 9k gold (not including card sales, yes incl Dungeon buff). 20/0 run. Consistent.
During 50% buff: clear = 70ish min, 14.5k gold. 20/0 run. 1 out of 6. Therefore 10k usually earned as a loss to a boss is a loss of gold.
... Not really sure on where this is supposed to be a "Great deal!" or something to lure in new players to PvE more, but it's not.
In fact quite frankly if I were someone new to the game, just started Arena within the last 2 weeks and still building at a Nico/Diesbudt level of deck for PvE grinding: I'd quit. It would frustrate me to the level of "not worth my time, and why would Any game company promote something by making it worse?"

As it is I'm 2years, 2+/-1 GenCons, and 2k real world dollars invested into this and I'm on the fence about selling the account.
Set 3 Hype = PvP is great! (you get value for your time with AAs and more cards, plus the game mechanics are consistent). PvE is sagging and now has fallen on it's face: you're not getting anything new, and the content you had got ramped up to the point it's actually a resource drain to play. You're losing 4k gold an hour compared to what it was last week.
Xarlox is back to the state he was pre-nerf awhile ago: you only beat him due to 100% luck.
Fun?

I haven't read that Rock/paper/Shotgun article yet, but from the comments I've seen in that other thread, and the horrible way Arena was 50% gold patched, I'm beginning to wonder what the real goal of HEXEnt PvE is?

Cainhu
07-09-2015, 01:34 AM
How is gold going to depreciate in the next four months? I think it can only go up in value without some major gold faucet, which I hope does not happen.

The only way I see gold depreciating is if the chest contents are poor and I don't think that will happen.

I think we will see the same issue as with equipment : in time there will be too many of anything in those chests to stay really valuable. But I hope I will be wrong.

BTW, I don't think set 3 will bring a big influx of new players. I don't really see a big marketing campaign to support that idea.

bwarner
07-09-2015, 06:08 AM
Nothing changed in Arena, this is confirmation bias pure and simple. To suggest that they ninja deployed some sort of system that understands exactly what card needs to be drawn by a player suggests that they have been spending months of development time on a feature that is completely unnecessary at this time. Sometimes things happen twice in a row, that is what it means to be random.

plaguedealer
07-09-2015, 06:21 AM
I agree nothing has changed in the arena. Beet Xarlox multiple time during the 50 percent increase. Xarlox can be a random boss to fight. Sometimes it is real difficult to not auto lose.

Svenn
07-09-2015, 06:28 AM
*snip*

This is the most hilarious thing I've heard all week. They didn't change the Arena or the draw engine. You hit a patch of bad luck. I ran through the Arena last night and demolished Xarlox with ease. I had at least one boss that mulliganed to 5 and couldn't get past 2 resources. My draws were all perfectly fine.

Nice conspiracy theory though.

Khazrakh
07-09-2015, 06:30 AM
This is the most hilarious thing I've heard all week. They didn't change the Arena or the draw engine. You hit a patch of bad luck. I ran through the Arena last night and demolished Xarlox with ease. I had at least one boss that mulliganed to 5 and couldn't get past 2 resources. My draws were all perfectly fine.

Nice conspiracy theory though.

Came here to say exactly that.
So, uhm: THIS!

RamzaBehoulve
07-09-2015, 07:26 AM
They did improve the way the AI is playing over time it seems.. I didn't notice anything specifically different with the start of the gold bonus though.

ThomasHunter
07-09-2015, 07:46 AM
They did improve the way the AI is playing over time it seems.. I didn't notice anything specifically different with the start of the gold bonus though.

Playing over the last couple of days had me thinking the same thing. It certainly made me think when I saw the AI making better decisions!!!

wolzarg
07-09-2015, 11:13 AM
This is the most hilarious thing I've heard all week. They didn't change the Arena or the draw engine. You hit a patch of bad luck. I ran through the Arena last night and demolished Xarlox with ease. I had at least one boss that mulliganed to 5 and couldn't get past 2 resources. My draws were all perfectly fine.

Nice conspiracy theory though.
Just got done with my 5th arena in a row during the gold bonus. I lost three games in a row to him in one of those because my deck isn't good against him if he gets a spider early. The other four times i smashed him before or despite him getting the eggs with brute force.

thegreybetween
07-09-2015, 11:22 AM
Two runs in with the bonus active. Two Xarlox encounters. Two seemingly normal skin-of-my-teeth 1st round kills.

My second run did take almost twice as long to complete and a lot of the encounters did seem to be much more difficult than average (Avenging Angel with Fulmination Challenge gets 2 big beaters free on turn 2?! Ouch!), but that fits with the laws of RNG. Bad runs happen, and when bad runs happen during a bonus period, they hurt more. It does make them more obvious, but it doesn't indicate willful manipulation behind the scenes.

nicosharp
07-09-2015, 11:30 AM
This is the most hilarious thing I've heard all week. They didn't change the Arena or the draw engine. You hit a patch of bad luck. I ran through the Arena last night and demolished Xarlox with ease. I had at least one boss that mulliganed to 5 and couldn't get past 2 resources. My draws were all perfectly fine.

Nice conspiracy theory though.
Yeah, I can confirm it's the same AI. However, I do hope they do not plan to update the AI too much until a full PvE experience is launched.

I agree with some of the sentiments about the game starting to wear around the edges so to speak, but it comes from the perspective of someone that has been playing for quite some time. Grinding the arena is a sobering experience. I do hope there are more incentives soon to have "fun" while earning gold. You get to a certain point with a tuned deck, and fearing a Uruu sighting, you stick with it, despite the fact that you could be having fun trying other things that may or may not be effective.

Khazrakh
07-09-2015, 12:03 PM
[...] You get to a certain point with a tuned deck, and fearing a Uruu sighting, you stick with it, despite the fact that you could be having fun trying other things that may or may not be effective.

Ya that's the problem for me right now really.
Whenever I build a deck I ask myself "will it beat Uru?" If it won't I won't play it until I've seen him again.

Vorpal
07-09-2015, 12:08 PM
Yeah, I can confirm it's the same AI. However, I do hope they do not plan to update the AI too much until a full PvE experience is launched.

I agree with some of the sentiments about the game starting to wear around the edges so to speak, but it comes from the perspective of someone that has been playing for quite some time. Grinding the arena is a sobering experience. I do hope there are more incentives soon to have "fun" while earning gold. You get to a certain point with a tuned deck, and fearing a Uruu sighting, you stick with it, despite the fact that you could be having fun trying other things that may or may not be effective.

The Uru bit remains the single worst design decision for arena. It is actively and militantly anti-fun.

Roy_G
07-09-2015, 05:38 PM
I'm not playing any fun decks for the slight chance that if I will see him I can with good odds beat Urunaaz.It gives great prizes but the RNG sleeves and his rarity affect arena playing much more than it should

Malcolm
07-10-2015, 10:16 PM
Nothing changed in Arena, this is confirmation bias pure and simple. To suggest that they ninja deployed some sort of system that understands exactly what card needs to be drawn by a player suggests that they have been spending months of development time on a feature that is completely unnecessary at this time. Sometimes things happen twice in a row, that is what it means to be random.
Confirmation bias is when someone has a pre-existing idea or notion and then tries to use 1 or 2 cases of events happening to back up their notion. Not once on these forums, nor anywhere else, have I expressed said “the AI is being tweaked!” ideas (I didn’t really care). Despite the fact that it has been mentioned elsewhere by HEX Ent themselves that the AI will be, has been, and is being tweaked.
https://www.hextcg.com/hex-update-welcome-to-2015/
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=42368&p=471981&viewfull=1#post471981
Meji’s quote is spot on, as well as other discussion: this from back in March. The AI isn’t patched into your client side: it’s 100% on the server end. Otherwise it would have been hacked by now and gold values would have plummeted lower than Swamp Thing sacking a 0 charge Storm Cloud. It doesn't take months to

Phil Cape even went so far as to spell it out for anyone not paying attention or who didn’t understand the real nature of just how HEX Ent can change the AI decks (and therefore how it knows to interact/play the changes) in this link: https://www.hextcg.com/hex-update-100000-tournament/
Here, I’ll point it out for ya: “Best of all, the system is set up so R&D can easily change quantities and swap cards in and out; it takes me all of five minutes to change cards in Arena decks, and as such we can go back and change things up if we feel an encounter is getting stale.” – section titled Arachnophobia

Phil also mentions how easy it is to simply change the decks alone here: http://board.hex.gameforge.com/board28-english-section-en/board35-updates-important-information/1816-friday-update-24-04-2015/
The real confirmation bias in this case are posters who have a pre-existing idea that the game is set and will only change when they notify us; then they give 1 or 2 cases of events happening to back it up as unrefutable and debase themselves with insults to any discussion of the matter.


Making a coding swap in this case is incredibly easy: The AI has been Learning from the Meta that is being played against it in PvE over the last few months. There is not (or at least shouldn’t be) a deck AI based around “Xarlox the terrrribble!” or whatever Champ it is. Instead it’s one general AI that says “Oh, I’m playing Xarlox’s deck now, I know how it works, here are my responses to how my opponents deck. Oh, he’s playing Rush Orcs: well am I set on Easy, Average, Hard, or God-draw, that’ll tell me what to do next.” Or some variation of that method of black/white box attempt at tactics.

The reason that they are changing Machinist is because the success of the deck isn’t based around card play and tactics at all; its based on getting one piece of equipment (which can be bought for less than .10c US), 1 certain troop on the field (have 4, mulligan for 1, auto win with 2). The only way for the AI to deal with that combo, other than hard removal, is to slow you down (which it is doing more often)

And no: things happening twice in a row being random only applies to certain types of statistical models, only some of which are used in HEX’s AI.

I find it interesting as well that people posting in comments 36, 37, and 39 agree that the AI is playing differently than it has in the last 3 months, and that games are taking longer. As I stated in my previous post: in the last 3 days, games have gone from me blasting through with a Speed deck in 45min tops to taking up to 1.5hrs to finish. That's not conspiracy theory: thats just using a clock.

So I put this Challenge to naysayers (and to any of the Speed Runners who were vying for top place recently):
Do 3 consecutive Arena runs using either Dwarf weeny or Mono Orc rush and post vid links here showing the same or near time and success rate (I’ll give ya 1 min variation since “nothing has changed”).
I double red-dog dare ya.

Tldr: you’re not making more gold in the Arena based on the time to completion and win-ratio than you were before the gold buff. And that’s a crappy way to bait and switch which I don’t believe I’ve ever seen HEX do before.

Parzival
07-10-2015, 11:09 PM
Malcom, why exactly is this bait and switch? Have they promised one thing and delivered another?

Nope, they just increased the gold drop rate, if they have changed the difficulty to reduce output, that's tuning not switch - standard mmo practice.

I'm not noticing any difference in run speed - but then I'm not a speed runner ;) Other than Xarlox but he's my favourite run breaker :cool:

Mono ruby is still performing well, T4 kills are still a plenty and the ai is still misplaying (it does play a lot better when it's about it lose, I've noticed).

Have they slowed down our farming? Perhaps - how is this a problem?

katkillad
07-11-2015, 12:02 AM
My arena deck is performing exactly how it always has and I've done several runs since the bonus gold and WAY too many runs prior to that. The only thing I noticed different is I had the AI attack after I just tunneled a troop. In the past it was never doing that since it was always playing around Fissuresmith.

IronPheasant
07-11-2015, 02:05 AM
And I've seen the same old derpy misplays too. Malice Demon being prioritized over Mass Polymorph, which would have won him the game. Bouncing his own Wrenlocke. NOT PLAYING A CARD EVEN THOUGH HE COULD.

That's some top tier mythical enhanced AI right there I tell you what. Maybe folks shouldn't be leaning on decks that have a low win % tuned for fast clear if RNGesus feels like it for their income stream, and then griping that it doesn't auto win every single time on turn 3.


"will it beat Uru?" If it won't I won't play it until I've seen him again.

Yeah... the only thing worse than never seeing the loch ness monster would be getting murdered by him when you do.

The closet I'll ever get to him is this single copy of Leeching Burrowers that dropped when the global loot table had it on it. I get the whole desire for stuff people want because they can't have it thing, but a long grueling unforgiving dungeon that only has a small % to drop what you want is better than this.

nicosharp
07-11-2015, 07:54 AM
I find it really funny that there is a conspiracy theory about the AI improving when it makes all the same misplays.
If anything changed it is slight server load issues due to a larger playerbase causing turn lag for my first run after logging in.

OutlandishMatt
07-12-2015, 11:23 PM
I have to say, doing a perfect run against Princess Cory and Xarlox and getting less than 10k seemed very disappointing. :'( I hate Xarlox and for beating him you should get 10k alone.

thegreybetween
07-12-2015, 11:32 PM
On the charity stream, JadiimJedi showed off a S/W Rhino deck (that just so happens to have a perfect PvE equipment distribution - one item available for each slot). I put it together and did an arena run. I must say, it gave me perhaps the most satisfying Xarlox encounter I've ever had. Xarlox had me down to about 8 health and had 2/3 terrorantulas on the board when my deck hit the stride. 8 turns in a row and 212 attack-ready rhinos later (with the ability to spawn more than 100 more during my turn), and, well...suffice it to say that I stepped on that spider.

Check out that deck on the Twitch archive of the charity stream. It is definitely not a speed run deck, but it is a blast to play. Cheers, JJ, on a wicked-fun build.

Alamand
07-12-2015, 11:55 PM
Yeah, that deck looked like a lot of fun, and it'll probably get even better with the cards and more equipment options from set 3. While I haven't looked at the full deck list yet so I'm not sure how much room for change there is one card I'd be looking to test in it is that 1 drop coyotle that adds "draw a card" to your next action, getting that on an escalation card would be great.

Ertzi
07-13-2015, 05:21 AM
Can we get a decklist for that JadiimJedi's S/W Rhino deck? I love testing and playing with fun decks others have built, but I don't feel like hunting down a specific stream for it.

Lukezors
07-13-2015, 12:32 PM
The Uru bit remains the single worst design decision for arena. It is actively and militantly anti-fun.

Agreed :(. I encountered him for the first time last week with not my best deck and lost. I'll never run arena with a fun deck again now...

His rewards are just way too good, 100k gold is insane value. IMO he should just reward his sleeves and nothing else.

nicosharp
07-13-2015, 12:35 PM
Can we get a decklist for that JadiimJedi's S/W Rhino deck? I love testing and playing with fun decks others have built, but I don't feel like hunting down a specific stream for it.

fiveshards or 2turnsahead podcast has it.

Miwa
07-13-2015, 12:44 PM
His rewards are just way too good, 100k gold is insane value. IMO he should just reward his sleeves and nothing else.

The problem isn't Uruunaz, it's that gold is worth way, way WAY too much right now. Way too many gold sinks for too few faucets.

regomar
07-13-2015, 01:36 PM
I don't get this +50% gold thing. I'm barely getting more than before. A run skipping 1st tier is still getting me less than 10k gold, even if perfect. I checked for bonus gold or something, no extra reward listed.

Saeijou
07-13-2015, 01:37 PM
I don't get this +50% gold thing. I'm barely getting more than before. A run skipping 1st tier is still getting me less than 10k gold, even if perfect. I checked for bonus gold or something, no extra reward listed.

it's directly in the rewarded gold you get. it's in, trust me ;)

ThomasHunter
07-13-2015, 02:48 PM
Has anyone heard if the bonus will continue until the patch even though it has been delayed? That would rock!

Thrawn
07-13-2015, 02:55 PM
Has anyone heard if the bonus will continue until the patch even though it has been delayed? That would rock!

Yes, at least for a little while.

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=44271&page=3&p=503931&viewfull=1#post503931

Stok3d
07-13-2015, 05:42 PM
The Uru bit remains the single worst design decision for arena. It is actively and militantly anti-fun.

I presume you've never played WoW?!? While the drop rate is something that drives ppl nuts, it provides a large amount of satisfaction once you actually get the sleeves. This is an MMO and I believe it is important to have low rate drops like this. Feel fortunate we don't have lockouts here.

I won't bore you with the stories, but I've spent many years grinding a weekly run for certain mounts and literally have run some dungeons many hundreds of times to get the drop. Doing the grind and getting the loot is a badge of honor. What's nice is that you still get rewarded in this game with a large gold drop when you happen to get it a second time...

Gorgol
07-13-2015, 05:55 PM
I presume you've never played WoW?!? While the drop rate is something that drives ppl nuts, it provides a large amount of satisfaction once you actually get the sleeves. This is an MMO and I believe it is important to have low rate drops like this. Feel fortunate we don't have lockouts here.

I won't bore you with the stories, but I've spent many years grinding a weekly run for certain mounts and literally have run some dungeons many hundreds of times to get the drop. Doing the grind and getting the loot is a badge of honor. What's nice is that you still get rewarded in this game with a large gold drop when you happen to get it a second time...
Wouldnt have as much issue with it if the first week there wasn't an Uurunaz spawn bug causing him to spawn much more often. :( Hopefully in the future everyone will be on the same footing for spawn rates of things.

Yoss
07-13-2015, 06:05 PM
The loot can be rare without the encounter being (very) rare. Just make the loot drop only 10% of the time and then you can bump up the encounter rate by 10x with the same total drop rate for loot.

OutlandishMatt
07-13-2015, 06:42 PM
I'm basically done with arena now. You could probably make it 100% or 150% and I wouldn't touch it. Playing against Xarlox is nowhere near what I would consider fun. Also, I would almost bet everyone at Gen Con that plays with the Arena decks will be playing Xarlox.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DksSPZTZES0

Skirovik
07-13-2015, 07:22 PM
I presume you've never played WoW?!? While the drop rate is something that drives ppl nuts, it provides a large amount of satisfaction once you actually get the sleeves. This is an MMO and I believe it is important to have low rate drops like this. Feel fortunate we don't have lockouts here.

I won't bore you with the stories, but I've spent many years grinding a weekly run for certain mounts and literally have run some dungeons many hundreds of times to get the drop. Doing the grind and getting the loot is a badge of honor. What's nice is that you still get rewarded in this game with a large gold drop when you happen to get it a second time...

I feel like this misses the point. It's not a random drop. It's a hard encounter that's randomly spawned. This is a card game. Making different/whacky decks is part of the fun. When you can't play those decks for fear of screwing yourself out of a rare drop, that's not fun.

What it does is limit the flexibility of your decks. Either you can beat Uru or you can't. But because the spawn rate is SO LOW and the drops SO GOOD, you can't risk taking a bad/fun deck into the arena in case that's the one time you face him.

If Uru didn't exist, I would take so many decks into the Arena and it wouldn't get stale for a long, LONG time since I know the MMO grind. I have lived the MMO grind. I don't fear the grind, provided I don't get RNG screwed just because I wanted a change of pace. THIS is the problem with Uru and the Arena.

If the sleeves were a random drop for any boss, problem solved.
If Uru showed up waaaay more often but had much, much less loot, problem solved.
Current iteration, problem exists.

Please Hex Ent, fix this problem.

Gorgol
07-13-2015, 08:01 PM
I feel like this misses the point. It's not a random drop. It's a hard encounter that's randomly spawned. This is a card game. Making different/whacky decks is part of the fun. When you can't play those decks for fear of screwing yourself out of a rare drop, that's not fun.

What it does is limit the flexibility of your decks. Either you can beat Uru or you can't. But because the spawn rate is SO LOW and the drops SO GOOD, you can't risk taking a bad/fun deck into the arena in case that's the one time you face him.

If Uru didn't exist, I would take so many decks into the Arena and it wouldn't get stale for a long, LONG time since I know the MMO grind. I have lived the MMO grind. I don't fear the grind, provided I don't get RNG screwed just because I wanted a change of pace. THIS is the problem with Uru and the Arena.

If the sleeves were a random drop for any boss, problem solved.
If Uru showed up waaaay more often but had much, much less loot, problem solved.
Current iteration, problem exists.

Please Hex Ent, fix this problem.
Put it much better than I ever could but this is my real sentiment too. I'd like fun to return to Hex again.

Selanius
07-13-2015, 08:24 PM
I agree with Skirovik as well. I mostly think the Uruunaz drop rate is much too low to be interesting or fun. I run the arena a LOT and I haven't seen him since the first week when he was bugged.

regomar
07-13-2015, 10:31 PM
I agree with Skirovik as well. I mostly think the Uruunaz drop rate is much too low to be interesting or fun. I run the arena a LOT and I haven't seen him since the first week when he was bugged.

50 or so full runs and I've still never seen him. Might as well not even exist in my opinion.

knightofeffect
07-13-2015, 11:58 PM
Assuming Uruunaz has a primal drop rate, I believe I'm quickly approaching my current personal primal drop rate of ~1% if I got my first encounter soon =P

Mandalore
07-14-2015, 12:11 AM
Assuming Uruunaz has a primal drop rate, I believe I'm quickly approaching my current personal primal drop rate of ~1% if I got my first encounter soon =P


Waldo (Uruunaz) is not real. He is a myth made up to keep us Grinding arena non stop!

There is a higher chance to encounter a Mythosaur than Waldo... By the way Mythosaurs are extinct.

vickrpg
07-14-2015, 04:04 AM
On the charity stream, JadiimJedi showed off a S/W Rhino deck (that just so happens to have a perfect PvE equipment distribution - one item available for each slot). I put it together and did an arena run. I must say, it gave me perhaps the most satisfying Xarlox encounter I've ever had. Xarlox had me down to about 8 health and had 2/3 terrorantulas on the board when my deck hit the stride. 8 turns in a row and 212 attack-ready rhinos later (with the ability to spawn more than 100 more during my turn), and, well...suffice it to say that I stepped on that spider.

Check out that deck on the Twitch archive of the charity stream. It is definitely not a speed run deck, but it is a blast to play. Cheers, JJ, on a wicked-fun build.

I can't seem to find this... or on the fiveshard or 2turns ahead... Can someone just link it please?

Gwaer
07-14-2015, 04:09 AM
Uruunaz current AI makes it obnoxiously easy to beat him with virtually any deck. Seriously, odds are good you will win no matter what you're running is you can make it to wherever he spawned inside arena.

wolzarg
07-14-2015, 04:55 AM
Uruunaz current AI makes it obnoxiously easy to beat him with virtually any deck. Seriously, odds are good you will win no matter what you're running is you can make it to wherever he spawned inside arena.
This has definitely not been my experience but then again i havent seen him since week one.

Gwaer
07-14-2015, 05:07 AM
This has definitely not been my experience but then again i havent seen him since week one.

I haven't seen him lately either to be honest, maybe it has gotten more difficult. But based on my previous experience with him, I wouldn't run special decks on the off chance that I run into him.

hex_colin
07-14-2015, 05:08 AM
This has definitely not been my experience but then again i havent seen him since week one.

Well, just like any of us he can get the perfect opening hand that basically plays itself and completely wrecks you. :P Most of the time he loses to pretty bad misplays.

He'll get more predictably difficult over time and we'll see him more. :)

wolzarg
07-14-2015, 05:23 AM
Well, just like any of us he can get the perfect opening hand that basically plays itself and completely wrecks you. :P Most of the time he loses to pretty bad misplays.

He'll get more predictably difficult over time and we'll see him more. :)
Uru show rate and AI improvement confirmed for next patch!

Lukezors
07-14-2015, 06:55 AM
Uruunaz current AI makes it obnoxiously easy to beat him with virtually any deck. Seriously, odds are good you will win no matter what you're running is you can make it to wherever he spawned inside arena.

It's true his AI is not amazing but most of his cards are extremely powerful. It's definitely not true to say he is "obnoxiously easy".

Vorpal
07-14-2015, 09:13 AM
The problem isn't Uruunaz, it's that gold is worth way, way WAY too much right now. Way too many gold sinks for too few faucets.

No, the problem is Uruunaz.

A random event shouldn't be worth 20x the normal amount of an arena run. It's creates far too much inequality in outcomes.

If Uruunaz gave you 10k gold (or roughly twice what you get from a normal arena run) then failing to kill him wouldn't be so awful.

Vorpal
07-14-2015, 09:24 AM
I presume you've never played WoW?!? While the drop rate is something that drives ppl nuts, it provides a large amount of satisfaction once you actually get the sleeves. This is an MMO and I believe it is important to have low rate drops like this. Feel fortunate we don't have lockouts here.

I won't bore you with the stories, but I've spent many years grinding a weekly run for certain mounts and literally have run some dungeons many hundreds of times to get the drop. Doing the grind and getting the loot is a badge of honor. What's nice is that you still get rewarded in this game with a large gold drop when you happen to get it a second time...

If you were guaranteed to beat Uruunaaz with any deck you faced, or if you got the rewards simply for 'seeing' him, then your analogy might have merit. The issue is not that Urunaaz shows up rarely : the issue is that people can't play around with fun but not very powerful decks because if that is the day Urunaaz shows up, you lose out. And given that his appearance rate seems to be like 1%, it is entirely possible a normal player will never see Urunaaz more than once.

I did play WOW. The WOW equivalent would be that, say, Baron Rivendare's mount ONLY dropped if you had every one of your talent points allocated in a specific way in a specific tree and you weren't allowed to play any other way if you wanted to get the mount. Can you imagine how much that would suck?

I would love to try a shin hare deck in the arena. And tri shard humans. And mill. Etc.

But I can't, because those aren't going to beat urunaaz, and I haven't seen urunaaz yet.

I repeat, attaching such high rewards to urunaaz and then making him such a rare encounter was a terrible, terrible design choice. It isn't making people enjoy arena more, it is making them enjoy it less, because it limits their ability to play arena the way they want to just in CASE urunaaz shows up. It really sucks the fun out of arena and removes variability. I just cannot emphasize enough what a bad design choice it was. Attaching RIDICULOUSLY huge rewards to an incredibly rare event that requires players to play a certain way is antithetical to the concepts of a TCG in the first place.

If you got the gold and the pve cards just for seeing urunaaz, and the sleeves for defeating him, people would probably feel less paranoid about not having the best deck to fight urunaaz with. But as it is, Urunaaz gives you the equivalent, by himself, of like 20 arena runs (depending on the pve card prices) which is just way too much to leave on the table, particularly given that people are running arena solely for the gold in the first place.

noragar
07-14-2015, 09:47 AM
I repeat, attaching such high rewards to urunaaz and then making him such a rare encounter was a terrible, terrible design choice. It isn't making people enjoy arena more, it is making them enjoy it less, because it limits their ability to play arena the way they want to just in CASE urunaaz shows up. It really sucks the fun out of arena and removes variability. I just cannot emphasize enough what a bad design choice it was. Attaching RIDICULOUSLY huge rewards to an incredibly rare event that requires players to play a certain way is antithetical to the concepts of a TCG in the first place.

Perhaps this problem will go away once mercenaries are in the game. From what I understand about how it will work, we would be able to play whatever deck we want for the Arena, and if we met Uruunaz we could sub in another deck to battle him.

Xenavire
07-14-2015, 09:51 AM
No, the problem is Uruunaz.

A random event shouldn't be worth 20x the normal amount of an arena run. It's creates far too much inequality in outcomes.

If Uruunaz gave you 10k gold (or roughly twice what you get from a normal arena run) then failing to kill him wouldn't be so awful.

I dunno, atm Uruunaz probably only represents maybe 1-2k gold on average considering the number of runs you would do on average to meet him. It only rewards/punishes people who are lucky/unlucky enough to get abnormal numbers of encounters.

The expected gain on average is actually quite small. :p

I would still love to move the number of encounters up and the amount of gold down, leaving us at roughly the same amount of gold per run on average, and then just put the drops behind RNG rather than 4x leech on the first win.

Svenn
07-14-2015, 10:07 AM
Perhaps this problem will go away once mercenaries are in the game. From what I understand about how it will work, we would be able to play whatever deck we want for the Arena, and if we met Uruunaz we could sub in another deck to battle him.

I'm not sure if that system is going to apply to the Arena. I think the Arena is meant to be a single deck gauntlet. I could see it going either way, really.

Flairina
07-14-2015, 10:09 AM
Perhaps this problem will go away once mercenaries are in the game. From what I understand about how it will work, we would be able to play whatever deck we want for the Arena, and if we met Uruunaz we could sub in another deck to battle him.

While I agree this would mitigate the problem, as has been suggested numerous times, there's also bound to be people complaining that they can only use the mercenary once, so they can't ever use their mercenary deck to get past Xarlox/War Bot/insert whatever enemy people are having trouble with here because they feel they have to save it in case they meet Uruunaz. Just sayin'.

Svenn
07-14-2015, 10:11 AM
there's also bound to be people complaining about anything

Fixed that for you. ;)

Gorgol
07-14-2015, 10:16 AM
Perhaps this problem will go away once mercenaries are in the game. From what I understand about how it will work, we would be able to play whatever deck we want for the Arena, and if we met Uruunaz we could sub in another deck to battle him.

Good idea, maybe we should all wait for an indeterminate amount of time to be allowed to have fun in arena. They should have just never released Uurunaz until mercenaries were in the game if the intention was to force us into using a mercenary to beat him so that we can enjoy ourselves.

Lukezors
07-14-2015, 10:19 AM
While I agree this would mitigate the problem, as has been suggested numerous times, there's also bound to be people complaining that they can only use the mercenary once, so they can't ever use their mercenary deck to get past Xarlox/War Bot/insert whatever enemy people are having trouble with here because they feel they have to save it in case they meet Uruunaz. Just sayin'.

Agreed that Mercs would makes it less of a problem but not solve the issue.

Lukezors
07-14-2015, 10:20 AM
If you were guaranteed to beat Uruunaaz with any deck you faced, or if you got the rewards simply for 'seeing' him, then your analogy might have merit. The issue is not that Urunaaz shows up rarely : the issue is that people can't play around with fun but not very powerful decks because if that is the day Urunaaz shows up, you lose out. And given that his appearance rate seems to be like 1%, it is entirely possible a normal player will never see Urunaaz more than once.

I did play WOW. The WOW equivalent would be that, say, Baron Rivendare's mount ONLY dropped if you had every one of your talent points allocated in a specific way in a specific tree and you weren't allowed to play any other way if you wanted to get the mount. Can you imagine how much that would suck?

I would love to try a shin hare deck in the arena. And tri shard humans. And mill. Etc.

But I can't, because those aren't going to beat urunaaz, and I haven't seen urunaaz yet.

I repeat, attaching such high rewards to urunaaz and then making him such a rare encounter was a terrible, terrible design choice. It isn't making people enjoy arena more, it is making them enjoy it less, because it limits their ability to play arena the way they want to just in CASE urunaaz shows up. It really sucks the fun out of arena and removes variability. I just cannot emphasize enough what a bad design choice it was. Attaching RIDICULOUSLY huge rewards to an incredibly rare event that requires players to play a certain way is antithetical to the concepts of a TCG in the first place.

If you got the gold and the pve cards just for seeing urunaaz, and the sleeves for defeating him, people would probably feel less paranoid about not having the best deck to fight urunaaz with. But as it is, Urunaaz gives you the equivalent, by himself, of like 20 arena runs (depending on the pve card prices) which is just way too much to leave on the table, particularly given that people are running arena solely for the gold in the first place.

+1 Really well worded expression of the problem.

bwarner
07-14-2015, 10:37 AM
I tend to think some of the proposed solutions might be improvements, but I also think the "problem" is largely psychological. I am still enjoying the Arena, and have about 10 different decks that I rotate through regularly. Most/all are what people here would probably consider 'fun' decks (my mill deck and Shin'Hare deck have gotten me a number of full clears). Would they beat Urunaaz if I ever saw him? I have no idea. But I'd much rather have fun for 20+ hours as I have rather than play the same deck into the ground to give me an improved chance at winning $20 if Urunaaz ever appears. People should try embracing the idea that Hex is a game and you should play it in the way that lets you have fun. If you really want the prizes, just work a few hours in the real world, earn enough to buy them, and then continue having fun as usual.

Gorgol
07-14-2015, 10:46 AM
I tend to think some of the proposed solutions might be improvements, but I also think the "problem" is largely psychological. I am still enjoying the Arena, and have about 10 different decks that I rotate through regularly. Most/all are what people here would probably consider 'fun' decks (my mill deck and Shin'Hare deck have gotten me a number of full clears). Would they beat Urunaaz if I ever saw him? I have no idea. But I'd much rather have fun for 20+ hours as I have rather than play the same deck into the ground to give me an improved chance at winning $20 if Urunaaz ever appears. People should try embracing the idea that Hex is a game and you should play it in the way that lets you have fun. If you really want the prizes, just work a few hours in the real world, earn enough to buy them, and then continue having fun as usual.
Tell me, where can I spend $ to get the Uurunaz sleeves? I'd love to drop money for them. Oh, wait, my fun is invalid I guess because I enjoy collecting the sleeves.

Flairina
07-14-2015, 10:50 AM
Tell me, where can I spend $ to get the Uurunaz sleeves? I'd love to drop money for them. Oh, wait, my fun is invalid I guess because I enjoy collecting the sleeves.

That's a bit of an overreaction in that last bit; I think they just don't consider the sleeves as important because they either personally don't care, or because everyone else has been talking about the "value" in finding Uruunaz. I too care not nearly as much about the rewards as I do the sleeves, but they were not saying your idea of fun is invalid any more than they were saying mine is. Breathe.

Gorgol
07-14-2015, 10:53 AM
That's a bit of an overreaction in that last bit; I think they just don't consider the sleeves as important because they either personally don't care, or because everyone else has been talking about the "value" in finding Uruunaz. I too care not nearly as much about the rewards as I do the sleeves, but they were not saying your idea of fun is invalid any more than they were saying mine is. Breathe.

Ah, makes sense. I didn't understand at first when they said prizes they meant everything except the sleeves. Thank you for the clarification of what they meant. :)

bwarner
07-14-2015, 10:55 AM
The sleeves seem to be somewhat of an intractable problem, and most of the proposed solutions don't address them. If they were significantly easier to obtain, they'd also be significantly less interesting. If you had higher chances of seeing Uru, but lower chances of him dropping the sleeves when defeated, the end result would be a wash from a sleeve perspective. So I'm not trying to say your way of having fun is invalid, I just don't see how to have rare sleeves that aren't a giant pain to obtain.

Lukezors
07-14-2015, 10:57 AM
I tend to think some of the proposed solutions might be improvements, but I also think the "problem" is largely psychological. I am still enjoying the Arena, and have about 10 different decks that I rotate through regularly. Most/all are what people here would probably consider 'fun' decks (my mill deck and Shin'Hare deck have gotten me a number of full clears). Would they beat Urunaaz if I ever saw him? I have no idea. But I'd much rather have fun for 20+ hours as I have rather than play the same deck into the ground to give me an improved chance at winning $20 if Urunaaz ever appears. People should try embracing the idea that Hex is a game and you should play it in the way that lets you have fun. If you really want the prizes, just work a few hours in the real world, earn enough to buy them, and then continue having fun as usual.

The problem is indeed physiological, but it's pretty hard to shrug off the fact that you might lose out on $20 of value for not playing your absolute best and that's unfun.

Gorgol
07-14-2015, 11:09 AM
The sleeves seem to be somewhat of an intractable problem, and most of the proposed solutions don't address them. If they were significantly easier to obtain, they'd also be significantly less interesting. If you had higher chances of seeing Uru, but lower chances of him dropping the sleeves when defeated, the end result would be a wash from a sleeve perspective. So I'm not trying to say your way of having fun is invalid, I just don't see how to have rare sleeves that aren't a giant pain to obtain.
Fact is most people who have the sleeves got them when he spawned MUCH more often in that first week. I guess I'm SOL because woops I wasn't doing runs at that time.

Tazelbain
07-14-2015, 11:12 AM
<-- met Uru with a hastily cobbled together dwarf deck pre-nerf. Lost after getting him do to 2 health.

Don't use sub-optimal decks, it's not worth it. Primal pack lottery use to be the worst part Hex but now it is the Uruunaz lottery.

The annoying part is I don't even want the gold or worms, just the sleeves.

Warrender
07-14-2015, 11:45 AM
<-- met Uru with a hastily cobbled together dwarf deck pre-nerf. Lost after getting him do to 2 health.

Don't use sub-optimal decks, it's not worth it. Primal pack lottery use to be the worst part Hex but now it is the Uruunaz lottery.

The annoying part is I don't even want the gold or worms, just the sleeves.

I don't even want the sleeves. I just want to kill that cocky bastard.

Vorpal
07-14-2015, 12:10 PM
I dunno, atm Uruunaz probably only represents maybe 1-2k gold on average considering the number of runs you would do on average to meet him. It only rewards/punishes people who are lucky/unlucky enough to get abnormal numbers of encounters.

The expected gain on average is actually quite small. :p

This is completely, objectively, mathematically false.

I'd like to say more so this post doesn't sound harsh, but I'm not sure how else to address the way you have misused the term 'on average'.

Urunaaz represents 100k gold, on average. Since he gives you 100k gold every time you defeat him, the average for defeating him is 100k gold. Every time you see Uruunaz and fail to defeat him, you lose 100k gold. Therefore, the average of failing to kill Uruunaz when you see him is also 100k gold.

The gain on average between defeating and not defeating Urunaaz is likewise 100k gold.

There is no average Uruunaz encounter worth 1k - 2k gold. Are you talking about just the value of the pve cards perhaps? That seems very low to me but it has been a while since I checked.

x78089
07-14-2015, 12:28 PM
He is speaking to how much Uruu is worth divided by the number of runs it takes to see him. If he only pops in 1/100 runs, then each run theoretically is worth 1/100 of his loot. Which equates to what OSS said.

Gwaer
07-14-2015, 12:29 PM
Pretty sure you entirely missed xenavire's point. Like, completely... You want to play fun arena decks, not only optimized uru killing ones. He was averaging the gold you earn from all your arena runs, and he is absolutely right, there is a very real chance that his gold would be a tiny fraction of the whole sum of gold you earn just playing your fun decks. So once you kill him, he increases the average gold you have made per all arena runs by X amount much smaller than 100k. So if you're tired of running the optimized decks, stop running them, and run something else. I've killed him with an extremely suboptimal deck.

Miwa
07-14-2015, 01:21 PM
Normally I'd have only cared about getting the sleeve from Uruunaz, but 100k gold is just worth too much right now. They shouldn't have ever put that much gold on the encounter, or they never expected gold to be worth as much as it is.

There'd be a huge outcry (me included, I've not seen him yet) if they just nerfed him to 5k gold or something, but they either need to do that or buff the crap out of regular arena runs.

That way once you beat him once, you could really not care as much if you were running GoofballDeck V2.0(TM) in arena, because you wouldn't lose out on like $12+ real world value for losing to him.

LNQ
07-14-2015, 01:32 PM
I too faced Uruunaz once early on, and was one turn away from winning but it managed to turn the table at the last minute. I've never encountered it since and it bugs the hell out of me.

Luckily I at least bought all the Uruunaz related cards and equipment early on from the AH when they were cheap, so all I'm missing is the gratification of actually defeating it. I don't care about the sleeves or the gold, even though they are a nice bonus.

Vorpal
07-14-2015, 01:39 PM
He is speaking to how much Uruu is worth divided by the number of runs it takes to see him.

But that is a strange calculation. That would be like saying a primal is only worth 40 plat 'on average', because it is worth 2000 plat divided by 50, which is how many packs it takes to see a primal. We can string these words together but they don't mean anything. It is a misuse of the term 'on average'.


If he only pops in 1/100 runs, then each run theoretically is worth 1/100 of his loot.

I think what you describe would be a much better system, but each run absolutely is not worth 1/100 of Urunaaz's loot, theoretically or otherwise. None of urunaaz's loot is apportioned amongst normal runs.

We are able to calculate how much a normal run is worth compared to him: he gives 100k gold, a run is about..5k, 6k? 7k? I'm not sure if we are assuming perfect runs each time or not...but each run is about worth 1/15th - 1/20th of his loot.


Pretty sure you entirely missed xenavire's point. Like, completely... You want to play fun arena decks, not only optimized uru killing ones. He was averaging the gold you earn from all your arena runs, and he is absolutely right, there is a very real chance that his gold would be a tiny fraction of the whole sum of gold you earn just playing your fun decks

But we already know it's not a tiny fraction. Let's take the apparently accepted figure of 2%, or 50 runs. Call that 300k gold at 6k gold each run. Urunaaz is worth 100k gold. That single Urunaaz encounter is worth a full 33% of your earnings. That's huuuge! Essentially you are boosting your potential earnings by 33% per run by using a proven Urunaaz busting deck instead of the deck you want to run.

If the amount of gold you got from urunaaz really WAS a tiny insignificant portion compared to the rest of your arena earnings (say 1 or 2%), we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

And of course, there are the sleeves issue. If you haven't killed Urunaaz, and want the sleeves, running a deck that doesn't beat urunaaz is simply not a valid strategy. I agree once you have *already* killed Urunaaz you can adopt a more laid back attitude, because you already have the sleeves. People who think Urunaaz is fine generally seem to fall into the camp of folks who have beaten him more than once, perhaps though getting lucky and playing arena before they nerfed his appearance.


So once you kill him, he increases the average gold you have made per all arena runs by X amount much smaller than 100k.

I guess I just don't see this as a useful measurement...Uru gives you 100k gold. He doesn't give us some smaller number that is dividing that 100k gold over all previous runs. Urunaaz gives every player who kills him 100k gold. The amount of previous arena runs we have completed doesn't factor into a calculation of urunaaz' value at all. It's always another 100k. It seems like people are trying to downplay the impact of seeing Urunaaz and not killing him?

If we are indeed attempting to compare the difference in expected earnings of not killing urunaaz when he appears vs killing urunaaz when he appears, averaged out over an entire cycle of arena runs necessary to see Urunaaz, then as pointed out, that's not a small difference at all. I wish it WAS a small difference. I think that would be a much better set up.

But it's a bit of a strange calculation, because not running optimized decks already makes you earn less gold per hour invested, because the optimized decks clear arena much quicker. So people who play with 'fun' decks instead of 'optimized grinding' decks get penalized twice: once for lower gold per hour, and then a huge gut punch if they run into and can't beat urunaaz and then don't see him for another 100 hours of arena time (which could be MONTHS for some players)

Xenavire
07-14-2015, 01:41 PM
My point (as pointed out above) was that if you completed the expected number of runs to meet Uruunaz, based on his encounter rate, you could divide his gold into an average increase to your arena runs.

So at 2% encounter rate, the expected earnings would be +2000g per run. At 1% its +1000g per run. At 0.5% its +500g per run.

It obviously doesn't work out like that for everyone (especially during the period where the encounter rate was a lot higher) but all Uruunaz really represents is a flat increase in your expected earnings if you have absolutely average luck, and actually win every Uruunaz encounter.

Saying 100k gold is insanely high is both true, and a slight misrepresentation, depending on how you are looking at it. :p

(Note, I am in no way saying you can't see the 100k as a lot of gold, but its just something that feels less impressive if you consider how many runs you have to do to get it.)

Vorpal
07-14-2015, 01:44 PM
Right, so why not simply make Urunaaz show up more and drop less gold? You could tweak the numbers so the total amount of urunaaz gold added to the system is exactly the same. I agree in principle that urunaaz serves to just add 'more' gold to your arena earnings, but I disagree that it is a small amount. If you are earning 6k, earning an additional 2k is a 33% boost, which is pretty darn huge.

Xenavire
07-14-2015, 01:47 PM
Right, so why not simply make Urunaaz show up more and drop less gold? You could tweak the numbers so the total amount of urunaaz gold added to the system is exactly the same. I agree in principle that urunaaz serves to just add 'more' gold to your arena earnings, but I disagree that it is a small amount. If you are earning 6k, earning an additional 2k is a 33% boost, which is pretty darn huge.

But thats exactly what I suggested in my original post :p Make Uruunaz more common and change the gold amount to be lower (and they could have the same 'expected' amount of gold dropping if they wanted to.)

And we don't know the precise encounter rate, some people claim well over 100 runs without seeing him, so we don't know the exact value he adds right now. But I agree, 2k per run is a lot! 500g per run, however, would be a lot less impressive. :p

Gwaer
07-14-2015, 01:52 PM
Instead, as colin has said numerous times they want to decrease the amount of people that beat him when they see him, and increase his encounter rate to end up dropping the amount of gold they're happy with.

In the end it should be a rare skill challenge with a good payout.

Vorpal
07-14-2015, 02:03 PM
But thats exactly what I suggested in my original post :p

Oh, well in that case we probably agree but I just completely misinterpreted your original post :D

Xenavire
07-14-2015, 02:03 PM
Instead, as colin has said numerous times they want to decrease the amount of people that beat him when they see him, and increase his encounter rate to end up dropping the amount of gold they're happy with.

In the end it should be a rare skill challenge with a good payout.

Well, yeah, thats my ideal solution, but there is this dead zone before the AI can handle it. :p

bwarner
07-14-2015, 02:16 PM
Instead, as colin has said numerous times they want to decrease the amount of people that beat him when they see him, and increase his encounter rate to end up dropping the amount of gold they're happy with.

In the end it should be a rare skill challenge with a good payout.

I'm worried that leaves us right back where we started. If only a masterfully built and well executed deck can beat Uru, then everyone will still feel that they are unable to play fun decks because if they do get the (not as) rare encounter, they want their best deck. Mercenaries is the only way to solve that.

Xenavire
07-14-2015, 02:18 PM
I'm worried that leaves us right back where we started. If only a masterfully built and well executed deck can beat Uru, then everyone will still feel that they are unable to play fun decks because if they do get the (not as) rare encounter, they want their best deck. Mercenaries is the only way to solve that.

I dunno, if it was a given that most people couldn't beat Uruunaz anyway, I think most people would default to the most enjoyable deck/playstyle, and only those truly obsessed with the sleeves would grind with a good deck (and ideally they would have ample opportunities).

Yoss
07-14-2015, 02:21 PM
A solution:
Remove Uruunaz as a random spawn. Create a new item: "Map to Uruunaz's Lair" as a rare arena drop only from Tier 4 boss on a Perfect clear. Item is Single Use, forces you to meet Uruunaz on your next Arena run. Using this map is the ONLY way to find Uruunaz. Item can be traded.

Gwaer
07-14-2015, 04:01 PM
When the AI is up to snuff only the best of the best cream of the crop and extremely lucky decks will be making it all the way through the arena anyway, most people should be making it around halfway most of the time. I look forward to that day, for both the challenge, and the saying i told you so in that xarlox thread.

Poetic
07-14-2015, 04:11 PM
Hope the encounters are hard in the right way and not hard in the unfair way because the AI isn't up to snuff.

Miwa
07-14-2015, 05:33 PM
For PvE the "unfair" way is the only way that will work. It'll be like any other boss or raid content though. It's not like you go fight a boss on equal terms in a MMO. :P

ShadowIronblood
07-14-2015, 10:51 PM
i want to fight a dragon... but he must be sleeping

Koz
07-15-2015, 05:52 AM
Instead, as colin has said numerous times they want to decrease the amount of people that beat him when they see him, and increase his encounter rate to end up dropping the amount of gold they're happy with.

In the end it should be a rare skill challenge with a good payout.

But that will just make the issue more pronounced. The problem that people are having is that they aren't able to run a more causal "fun" deck through the Arena in fear of this being the time they run into Uru, I don't see how the above is going to fix that problem at all.

Koz
07-15-2015, 05:56 AM
A solution:
Remove Uruunaz as a random spawn. Create a new item: "Map to Uruunaz's Lair" as a rare arena drop only from Tier 4 boss on a Perfect clear. Item is Single Use, forces you to meet Uruunaz on your next Arena run. Using this map is the ONLY way to find Uruunaz. Item can be traded.

That's kind of interesting, and that seems like a very MMO/ARPG type of thing. Not sure if it's viable, but it's an interesting idea

Gwaer
07-15-2015, 05:58 AM
But that will just make the issue more pronounced. The problem that people are having is that they aren't able to run a more causal "fun" deck through the Arena in fear of this being the time they run into Uru, I don't see how the above is going to fix that problem at all.

I think it instead makes it clear that the arena isn't for casual fun decks if you want to full clear/get rewards. Run suboptimized decks for fun if you like, just don't expect to win.

Koz
07-15-2015, 06:06 AM
When the AI is up to snuff only the best of the best cream of the crop and extremely lucky decks will be making it all the way through the arena anyway, most people should be making it around halfway most of the time. I look forward to that day, for both the challenge, and the saying i told you so in that xarlox thread.

I'm not sure what you are describing is good for the game. If the Arena gets to the point where the only decks that even stand a chance of being competitive are the "best of the best, cream of the crop and extremely lucky" ones....why would anyone bother? The rewards do not justify that level of challenge. At all.

Some people like to actually mess around with all of those cool cards in the pool, and putting together some wacky casual deck and going for a ride in the Arena is about the only place we can do that. Take that away and Hex basically becomes an elitist environment where only the people with the best cards can play the game outside of a draft. That sounds horrible. If they're going to make the Arena what you say it will be, then they need to up the rewards massively, as well as offer some PvE alternative where people aren't required to play the best decks in order to have a fun experience.

Koz
07-15-2015, 06:14 AM
I think it instead makes it clear that the arena isn't for casual fun decks if you want to full clear/get rewards. Run suboptimized decks for fun if you like, just don't expect to win.

That will be all fine as long as they have some PvE mode that allows players to play casual decks and still have an enjoyable experience. Getting obliterated in the Arena sounds like the direct opposite of an enjoyable experience, so if the Arena gets to that level, I doubt many people will play with anything other than the best decks.

I've put a lot of thought into what the Arena will be like when the AI actually knows how to play its cards better, and I'm not sure that it's going to be all its cracked up to be. I'm not interested in a PvE experience that basically says "you're only allowed to play with 15% of the card pool if you want to compete" (with the 15% being the cards that are used to make the best decks). I just pulled that percentage out of my rear, but you get what I mean. I don't think many people will be interested in that kind of experience honestly. If the Arena becomes like this, I sure hope Dungeons are a little more forgiving for people who want to play less than the best decks.

Gwaer
07-15-2015, 06:16 AM
I expect before the AI can support an arena of the difficulty I'd like to see we'll have other pve options. Also, I'd hope that the arena rewards scale with difficulty, as less people are completing it, it can offer higher payouts for those that manage it.

Koz
07-15-2015, 06:28 AM
I expect before the AI can support an arena of the difficulty I'd like to see we'll have other pve options. Also, I'd hope that the arena rewards scale with difficulty, as less people are completing it, it can offer higher payouts for those that manage it.

And that would be fine I think, so hopefully that's the kind of environment we get to. I wouldn't mind Arena being a place for only the best decks provided the rewards are worth it and there are outlets for more relaxed PvE experiences.

ossuary
07-15-2015, 06:52 AM
I expect we will see PVE content rebalanced a number of times in the next couple of years, as new content is added and new options become available. If nothing else, the loot tables will have to shift around from time to time, so that new PVP sets' PVE equipment and cards drop in existing locations in the PVE campaign. During those adjustment periods, it would make sense to change up the rewards offered by some experiences, especially if the difficulty curve has been moved around by new content (either more PVE content, or new PVP sets). It would also be a good way to make old content seem fresh again, or at least exciting for older players to run through again, if it offers new loot they weren't able to get there before.

Yoss
07-15-2015, 10:29 AM
That's kind of interesting, and that seems like a very MMO/ARPG type of thing. Not sure if it's viable, but it's an interesting idea

Why wouldn't it be viable? Seems like it solves all the problems put forth thus far.
1. It removes the random difficultly+extreme-loot spike. Unless you activated a map, you know you won't meet an abnormal challenge.
2. It maintains the rarity of the encounter. The drop rate of the map can be adjusted to any rate desired.
3. It allows unlucky players to trade/buy into the encounter through the AH, and lucky players to profit by selling maps to the unlucky (just like other rare loot).

What am I missing?

Zophie
07-15-2015, 10:45 AM
Why wouldn't it be viable? Seems like it solves all the problems put forth thus far.
1. It removes the random difficultly+extreme-loot spike. Unless you activated a map, you know you won't meet an abnormal challenge.
2. It maintains the rarity of the encounter. The drop rate of the map can be adjusted to any rate desired.
3. It allows unlucky players to trade/buy into the encounter through the AH, and lucky players to profit by selling maps to the unlucky (just like other rare loot).

What am I missing?

I like the idea, if they implemented the merc quest (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=42907) system we suggested before then the Uruunaz Lair map could be one of the rewards your merc brings back from a rare mission ;)

Or even without the merc missions, it could simply be a rare drop from a dungeon boss or a challenging player quest.

nicosharp
07-15-2015, 10:59 AM
I like the idea, if they implemented the merc quest (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=42907) system we suggested before then the Uruunaz Lair map could be one of the rewards your merc brings back from a rare mission ;)

Or even without the merc missions, it could simply be a rare drop from a dungeon boss or a challenging player quest.
I like the idea of Merc's being useful outside of just stash junk to use once in a blue-moon. I'm not sure this is the right game though for "passive" questing to earn any type of rewards. Seems like this is more along the lines of "dailies", and they made it sound like there were straying from this mentality with their game from both a gameplay perspective and economic one as well.

I see where Yoss is going as well, but I feel like it's still associating the encounter to pure random chance, and stacking that with another item. This does not replace RNG factors associated with the encounter.

At the end of the day, Uruunaz is too rare. The value he provides the lucky few that meet him and slay him is too huge. The separation by server not account, causes frustration to a large majority of the playerbase due to this.
I feel that I've outlined a way to negate this as well.

#1) After each boss kill in the arena, the player has a small incremental chance increase to encounter Uruunaz.
#2) Each incremental chance increase remains on their account until Uruunaz is "defeated".
#3) The starting % chance then will reset.

There could be an upper-limit to the max % chance. This ties the encounter still to random server luck, but gives players farming content a fair shot eventually of nailing down their achievement.

Koz
07-15-2015, 11:01 AM
Why wouldn't it be viable? Seems like it solves all the problems put forth thus far.
1. It removes the random difficultly+extreme-loot spike. Unless you activated a map, you know you won't meet an abnormal challenge.
2. It maintains the rarity of the encounter. The drop rate of the map can be adjusted to any rate desired.
3. It allows unlucky players to trade/buy into the encounter through the AH, and lucky players to profit by selling maps to the unlucky (just like other rare loot).

What am I missing?

Well my thought was that the encounter might be end up being easier than intended because you can just pick a deck with specific cards that you know will counter Uruunaz before you make your run. Inserting specific "anti-Uruunaz" cards would most certainly reduce the challenge.

If they could figure out a way to implement your suggestion without this being a factor, then it would be really cool, but it seems like it would be difficult for them to adjust the deck so that this wouldn't be a problem without the encounter being nearly impossible to defeat. No matter what they do, there would always be an optimal deck that would beat him, so everyone would just select that before they go on their "Uru run".

It's a cool idea though, and I'd like to see them do something like what you suggest. Rare map drops that spawn some sort of encounter sound really, really cool.

Edit: Maybe if the map drop just spawned a random boss run with Uruunaz being one of several that could spawn at the end, that would be okay, because then you couldn't tailor your deck to a specific challenge. I like that idea quite a bit.

Zophie
07-15-2015, 11:05 AM
I feel that I've outlined a way to negate this as well.

#1) After each boss kill in the arena, the player has a small incremental chance increase to encounter Uruunaz.
#2) Each incremental chance increase remains on their account until Uruunaz is "defeated".
#3) The starting % chance then will reset.

There could be an upper-limit to the max % chance. This ties the encounter still to random server luck, but gives players farming content a fair shot eventually of nailing down their achievement.

Blizzard actually started doing something like this in the last couple years behind the scenes with their rare drops in WoW. You're never quite guaranteed 100% success but your chances for something to drop do increase slightly every time that thing doesn't drop. It's their way to maintain the rarity without punishing those who are ridiculously unlucky.

thegreybetween
07-15-2015, 11:35 AM
They already do this. They just set the upper-limit equal to the base percentage :p

nicosharp
07-15-2015, 11:38 AM
They already do this. They just set the upper-limit equal to the base percentage :p
O_o "Feature-Rich" Game!

Yoss
07-15-2015, 09:46 PM
Well my thought was that the encounter might be end up being easier than intended because you can just pick a deck with specific cards that you know will counter Uruunaz before you make your run. Inserting specific "anti-Uruunaz" cards would most certainly reduce the challenge.

If they could figure out a way to implement your suggestion without this being a factor, then it would be really cool, but it seems like it would be difficult for them to adjust the deck so that this wouldn't be a problem without the encounter being nearly impossible to defeat. No matter what they do, there would always be an optimal deck that would beat him, so everyone would just select that before they go on their "Uru run".

It's a cool idea though, and I'd like to see them do something like what you suggest. Rare map drops that spawn some sort of encounter sound really, really cool.

Edit: Maybe if the map drop just spawned a random boss run with Uruunaz being one of several that could spawn at the end, that would be okay, because then you couldn't tailor your deck to a specific challenge. I like that idea quite a bit.

I love it when the person bringing up a problem also brings a solution. Well done.

*Pulls out a Monster Map and chants*
Goin' on a monster hunt (echo: Goin' on a monster hunt)
Gonna catch a big one (Gonna catch a big one)
I'm not afraid (I'm not afraid)
...
*exit stage right*