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View Full Version : Restricting gauntlet to s3 only should be a crime.



itsit
07-08-2015, 03:04 PM
I understand and empathize with the removal of 2-2-1 drafts and 2-2-2-2-1-1 sealed. I do not however agree with the decision to restrict gauntlet to set 3. None of the given arguments for the removal of set 1 and 2 from limited apply to gauntlet.

In fact, it would be a absolute shame to restrict gauntlet to set 3 only. As far as my comprehension goes, gauntlet is specifically designed to be a accessible environment. It strongly appeals to the more casual PvP players who enjoy limited play. It offers single matches that add a deal of randomness to the game. And chances are you encounter people playing dated sets, which makes it unpredictable. It seems fair to say, a bit of luck is involved. Which is fine, because it is casual.

Now for your own sake imagine gauntlet where every pack, still available in the store, in any combination is allowed. Wouldn't it fit in the slightly more casual and random environment that gauntlet offers perfectly. Furthermore it is a fantastic weapon against limited growing stale. Drafting 3-3-3 may start be predictable after a few months, but gauntlet will continue to surprise long after.
The diversity that this form of PvP game-play offers is unparalleled and it is incredibly inviting to play. The packs you want or have are no restriction. No buying packs you don't really want or need EVER.
In addition it provides additional incentive for new players to buy some of the old packs, trying and collecting some of the old thematic cards. The idea is just pure, unrestricted fun and a low cost and a low profit. Maybe it's just me, but I love the idea and fail to find the negative sides.

The serious players should still have access to sealed deck, which can be considered a competitive form of gauntlet for better players. Hence the restrictions and better rewards for sealed deck. But even for them this form of gauntlet is worth playing occasionally, because it is mostly about the fun. It fills the gap between new - old and casual - competitive perfectly. In my opinion, exactly what Hex needs.

Now I understand that gauntlet rewards only the latest packs, which could be a issue. But that is so incredibly easy to solve that it does not justify restricting it. A simple example with some RNG added in if that is desirable:
Allocate points to the various sets based on their order of release, summing it up, minus the minimal value of any pack times six, create six groups with the minimal value of any pack, redistributing the remainder of the points randomly with a maximum value equal to the highest value of any pack, randomly rewarding the groups based on wins.
So applied to set 1,2,3 with values s1: 1, s2: 2, s3: 3.
Randomly generating packs, considering that any combination is legit.
'1,1,2,1,3,3,' total value: 11, [minimal value of any pack = s1 at 1 point], 6*1 = 6, 11-6=5, [create 6 groups of 1], 111111, distribute 5 points randomly with max value 3 in any group, 111111 -> 232211.

In case you are wondering, Yes I am a new player who has yet to collect every single s 1 and 2 card. So I'm actually curious about the opinion of the more veteran players..

bwarner
07-08-2015, 03:07 PM
Keep in mind that in order for Gauntlet to be successful, there need to be enough people playing it that you can find a match at basically any time. If there is a niche Gauntlet mode that only 50 people are playing, you will at best play the same deck repeatedly, and at worst be stuck unable to find a match at all. I think it makes sense to start with just set 3, and then expand it as the player base expands to support other formats.

Tazelbain
07-08-2015, 03:09 PM
If we put the Hex Developers in jail, who build the game?

Saeijou
07-08-2015, 03:09 PM
sorry, i don't get you completely.
do you want to enter gauntlet with every possebility of packs and then fight against someone else?

so i pick 112233, the next person 123333 and the next one 333333 and all are in the same pool?

nicosharp
07-08-2015, 03:18 PM
I'm not sure how they plan to handle this, because the community playing during 'Beta' has been quite small so far, but it's been no-wipe 'beta' now for about 15 months.

That said - when this game goes "retail" We may already be in set 4 and set 5. There needs to be a long-term vision for new players that desire set 1 and set 2 cards, and want to acquire them through limited play.

Right now, going with their theme this is what is likely to happen to promote the health and wealth of the current block limited format:

The current block limited format will be the most prevalent.
The current block limited format will determine the prize structure.
Older block formats still in 'rotation' will cycle in as events - This could be a more long-term feature if the player base is substantial enough to support it.
Set 1 and Set 2 packs will be sold in the store at least until set 6.

Gauntlet needs to be much more specific, as any casual format change here will influence long-term disparity issues amongst the playerbase for when a player completes his Gauntlet run. Casual players may join a gauntlet run if it was a week long event, and not finish it until a month later. They are allotted that luxury, but could get paired against more challenging cards they did not originally have access to.

As a player that has been around since beta launch, this does not affect me, but will need to be addressed for the folks that are new to the game, and come retail. There is no reason not to have more diverse queues going forward as long as the cards/sets are still in "print", but there are some limitations to how those old formats pop up as tournaments. Specifically with how it relates to the more casual gauntlet atmosphere.

Player trade will be much more important to new players looking to collect retroactively.

Kami
07-08-2015, 03:21 PM
I've actually wondered the same thing myself as it's been stated that if we start a Gauntlet with an existing set, we can actually keep waiting until the set is no longer even in Gauntlet and continue against players with new sets.

If that's the case, restriction of sets seems arbitrary.

Thoom
07-08-2015, 03:30 PM
I've actually wondered the same thing myself as it's been stated that if we start a Gauntlet with an existing set, we can actually keep waiting until the set is no longer even in Gauntlet and continue against players with new sets.

If that's the case, restriction of sets seems arbitrary.

There's a cost associated with parking on an old set, though. You can't play any new gauntlets on that account until you finish that one.

The problem with allowing arbitrary sets is that if people felt older sets were more powerful, they'd just bring those to the gauntlet instead of the newer ones and you'd wind up with a rather degenerate meta.

Tazelbain
07-08-2015, 03:40 PM
I support any limited format that inhibits the devaluation of older set packs.

the_artic_one
07-08-2015, 04:19 PM
There's a cost associated with parking on an old set, though. You can't play any new gauntlets on that account until you finish that one.

The problem with allowing arbitrary sets is that if people felt older sets were more powerful, they'd just bring those to the gauntlet instead of the newer ones and you'd wind up with a rather degenerate meta.

Agreed, I'd be very unhappy if they put set 1+2 sealed in with set 3 sealed and it turned out that one type gave you a higher win-rate. I'd feel forced out of the "worse" one to the point where it might as well not even be an option.

Jonesy
07-08-2015, 04:51 PM
Agreed, I'd be very unhappy if they put set 1+2 sealed in with set 3 sealed and it turned out that one type gave you a higher win-rate. I'd feel forced out of the "worse" one to the point where it might as well not even be an option.

Set 3 sealed pools are pretty crap, pretty sure I could just do all set 2 and crush everybody with a humans deck even without giles. Or do all set 1 and smother people with infinite removal and fliers. Everybody needs to be playing the same format, and even if theyre not, eventually we will figure out what the best combination of packs is and then .... everybody will be playing the same format except people who don't know any better and routinely get crushed. I'm sorry you miss set 1 and set 2 but this is the way card games work, new sets beget new formats and older sets and formats change and fade away.

Rycajo
07-08-2015, 05:16 PM
Seems like this could be integrated into the match making system. Currently, the system *tries* to match you up with someone with the same record and someone you have not yet played - but then it loosens those standards as time goes on. The match making system could also take into consideration the packs contained in a players pool. Then after a minute or two, loosen the standards on how closely the pool matches potential opponents. If you like to play a less popular set of packs, you'll have to wait a little longer to get matched up - but you'll still be able to crack those packs in a limited format. If you like to play the most current set, you'll get matched up faster.

tecnophi
07-08-2015, 05:48 PM
The serious players should still have access to sealed deck, which can be considered a competitive form of gauntlet for better players. Hence the restrictions and better rewards for sealed deck. But even for them this form of gauntlet is worth playing occasionally, because it is mostly about the fun. It fills the gap between new - old and casual - competitive perfectly. In my opinion, exactly what Hex needs.


Hmm... I have a strong disagreement with the statement of serious players (I assume serious competitive players) are all that interested in sealed format. It is generally considered less skill based due it's high variance, and good players will win more (matches and rewards) in draft and constructed. Sealed Gauntlet to me is not really a serious competitive mode of play.

ForgedSol
07-08-2015, 05:53 PM
Hmm... I have a strong disagreement with the statement of serious players (I assume serious competitive players) are all that interested in sealed format. It is generally considered less skill based due it's high variance, and good players will win more (matches and rewards) in draft and constructed. Sealed Gauntlet to me is not really a serious competitive mode of play.

That ignores the subset of players that are competitive in nature but cannot find the time to do a full draft. A major point of asynchronous Sealed is to open up a competitive environment that is more flexible with time.

poizonous
07-08-2015, 06:03 PM
@Forged competitive players will likely not play asynch due to prize payouts.

Draft entry 700 plat - winner gets 1000 plat
Sealed entry 1400 plat - winner receive 1800 plat
Asynch sealed 1400 plat entry - winner receives 1200 plat

Time convenience is fine for some but why would i play in a tournament where i don't even win what i put in

Malicus
07-08-2015, 06:54 PM
@Forged competitive players will likely not play asynch due to prize payouts.

Draft entry 700 plat - winner gets 1000 plat
Sealed entry 1400 plat - winner receive 1800 plat
Asynch sealed 1400 plat entry - winner receives 1200 plat

Time convenience is fine for some but why would i play in a tournament where i don't even win what i put in

Gauntlet is easier to "win" than a sealed tournament and you only need to open an average of 200 plat in cards to break even if you consistently go 5-2 or better. It's a great way to develop your collection.

ShloobeR
07-08-2015, 07:08 PM
@Forged competitive players will likely not play asynch due to prize payouts.

Draft entry 700 plat - winner gets 1000 plat
Sealed entry 1400 plat - winner receive 1800 plat
Asynch sealed 1400 plat entry - winner receives 1200 plat

Time convenience is fine for some but why would i play in a tournament where i don't even win what i put in

You are allowed to lose matches in Gauntlet and still achieve the maximum payout
if you lose a single match in Comp Draft you can not.

nicosharp
07-08-2015, 07:36 PM
@Forged competitive players will likely not play asynch due to prize payouts.

Draft entry 700 plat - winner gets 1000 plat
Sealed entry 1400 plat - winner receive 1800 plat
Asynch sealed 1400 plat entry - winner receives 1200 plat

Time convenience is fine for some but why would i play in a tournament where i don't even win what i put in
The math isn't that black & white - but to Forged's point - Yes, There are "Competitive" players, that will not have time for standard draft or standard sealed. It's just the way the world turns.

poizonous
07-08-2015, 08:32 PM
Guys I'm agreeing with those points, just showing the reason gauntlet isn't for competitive players. The mode is Fine for what it does but it certainly won't entice competitive players

nicosharp
07-08-2015, 08:43 PM
Guys I'm agreeing with those points, just showing the reason gauntlet isn't for competitive players. The mode is Fine for what it does but it certainly won't entice competitive players
The problem is your limited definition of "competitive", and the value you are completely ignoring in your math.

tecnophi
07-08-2015, 10:26 PM
That ignores the subset of players that are competitive in nature but cannot find the time to do a full draft. A major point of asynchronous Sealed is to open up a competitive environment that is more flexible with time.

I believe that Constructed Gauntlet would be the competitive environment that would be more serious and allows players to be flexible with time. With the upcoming 100k tournament I don't expect to see top competitive players hone their skills and deck piloting in Sealed Gauntlet. Competitive players play in all types of events all the time, however if I were judge a player based on wins in different formats I would value wins in sealed format on the low side.

OutlandishMatt
07-08-2015, 10:41 PM
I believe that Constructed Gauntlet would be the competitive environment that would be more serious and allows players to be flexible with time. With the upcoming 100k tournament I don't expect to see top competitive players hone their skills and deck piloting in Sealed Gauntlet. Competitive players play in all types of events all the time, however if I were judge a player based on wins in different formats I would value wins in sealed format on the low side.

I could not see competitive players playing in gauntlet if it's not best of 3. You might as well start doing coin flips with best of 1. I cannot imagine the rage someone would have losing 3 games to shard droughts/floods in best of 1 games.

I think whatever is currently being sold in the Hex Store should be playable in Sealed Gauntlet. If Set 1-3 are being sold then there should be two options: A) 3 packs of Set 1, 3 packs of Set 2 or B) 6 packs of Set 3. It should be up to the players on which block they want to play in the gauntlet. And it's a collective pool of players so there can be no "We do not want to divide the player base" excuse.

I'd hate for players to come in when Armies is released thinking they can buy Set 1 & Set 2 packs and use them for sealed or drafts only to find out after buying them they cannot.

poizonous
07-08-2015, 11:24 PM
The problem is your limited definition of "competitive", and the value you are completely ignoring in your math.

Competitive players play where the best value is and without a best of 3 match constructed is simply not competitive

Patrigan
07-08-2015, 11:33 PM
Why not all random? You bring packs, any packs. But the packs you actually open are randomly determined. Those packs are "shadow packs", at the end it opens the actual packs you brought and gives you the contents.

This format, I think, would appeal to a broader more casual player base. I understand rotation in constructed events, but not in limited. It will also give plauyers the chance to learn more about the older cards and get them to search the AH for them (increasing value of many cards). When you still require 6 packs or a full fee, it will still generate strong sales as well.

Imagine the possibility of such a draft, where all players get 3 random packs. The format would be fun, not competitive, but fun. I personally have always wanted to play such a format in Magic or WoWTCG. A random fun format with plenty of surprises.

shocker455
07-09-2015, 01:02 AM
You cant have people using different packs because the power level per set is different. Also there is a potential for broken synergies to exist with cross block packs (broken for sealed at least).

As for shadow pack thing, it would be rather confusing for new users, and disappointing when you open an amazing legendary in your pool but dont get it. Also allows people in a way to turn old packs into new packs. One reason why they wont let you enter draft with any 3 packs.

RamzaBehoulve
07-09-2015, 07:16 AM
You cant have people using different packs because the power level per set is different. Also there is a potential for broken synergies to exist with cross block packs (broken for sealed at least).

There are broken synergies within s3 as well for limited. That's really not a reason. Sealed has been and always be much more luck based than any other game mode. Being lucky and getting that insane synergy between two cards will happen regardless of what set is used.

I vote for entering Gauntlet Sealed with any 6 packs currently sold in store.

LNQ
07-09-2015, 09:13 AM
There are broken synergies within s3 as well for limited. That's really not a reason. Sealed has been and always be much more luck based than any other game mode. Being lucky and getting that insane synergy between two cards will happen regardless of what set is used.

I vote for entering Gauntlet Sealed with any 6 packs currently sold in store.

You totally ignored the valid argument though. The sets cannot be perfectly balanced against each other, which would open the format up for abuse. In limited you need to be facing people who draw from the same card pool, otherwise it becomes unstable and unfair.

nicosharp
07-09-2015, 09:17 AM
Competitive players play where the best value is and without a best of 3 match constructed is simply not competitive
I can easily argue that I am a "competitive" player, and that the "best value" for me is in Sealed Asynch. And honestly, that is how I feel, and what I will be playing come launch. Outside of using free tickets for draft.

If your opinion of "competitive" had any weight to it based on your flat math analysis, everyone would be playing constructed 8-man competitive queues. Which rarely ever fires/happens.

LNQ
07-09-2015, 09:38 AM
I agree with nico. As a considerably busy person, time is my biggest constraint in playing Hex and earning packs. Therefore asynch lets me play and open most packs and provide me the most value. The luck factor from best of 1 matches is greatly offset by the amount of time it saves.

It remains to be seen how big a role luck plays in sealed gauntlet, but my instinct is that you should be consistently able to get a good win rate in it if you're good at deckbuilding.

wolzarg
07-09-2015, 11:10 AM
People are free to not consider me a competitive player if they so wish but i certainly do. The gauntlet is not something i will be spending a lot of time with but i most certainly will give it a go or two.

tecnophi
07-09-2015, 11:12 AM
It remains to be seen how big a role luck plays in sealed gauntlet, but my instinct is that you should be consistently able to get a good win rate in it if you're good at deckbuilding.

I would say Sealed Format has be around for a long time in plenty of TCGs, and it isn't an unknown format. Luck plays a much larger role in Sealed Format, a lot more than in draft or constructed. Good players in any format will win more, but will be highly at the mercy of what cards they open and just as importantly what cards their opponents open.

As far as sealed being competitive, I wouldn't call it serious or in the top half of competitive events/modes out there. I would dare say it is more casual than high level competition. Nothing wrong with it being that way.

ForgedSol
07-09-2015, 05:40 PM
It's as competitive as Hex and playerbase wants it to be. If it's a hit format that people love and makes money for HexEnt, the more likely Hex will use it for one of the various options for big tournaments. Now you have a playerbase that likes the format of the tournament partially because they see a legitimate tournament that takes a fraction of the time to complete your rounds as compared to constructed, and now there's no arguing if it's competitive. There might be more luck involved, but deck building and piloting and knowledge of the format still matters and plays a significant part.

Or you could have mixed formats of asynchronous sealed leading to a Top 8 constructed or whatever and have it part of, but not solely, the format of the tournament. It's another tool in HexEnt's bag. It's not objectively casual.

Jonesy
07-10-2015, 05:41 PM
Asynch does not mean casual it means its for people who don't have tons of free time. You can be competitive and have a busy life...

WWKnight
07-11-2015, 12:16 AM
Why not all random? You bring packs, any packs. But the packs you actually open are randomly determined. Those packs are "shadow packs", at the end it opens the actual packs you brought and gives you the contents.



This. This here is where the thread should have ended.

This is perfect solution to a) inflated number of set 1 packs. b) newbies wanting to purchase set 1 packs and still have them be usable.

Let the format be whatever Crypto decides is best. let the buy in be any pack at all.

poizonous
07-11-2015, 12:19 AM
Asynch does not mean casual it means its for people who don't have tons of free time. You can be competitive and have a busy life...

you cant be a "Competitive" constructed players if you are playing without reserves. Reserves are a huge part of constructed.

Granted Best of 1 will have its own "Meta" as there are some decks, that some decks can't be prepared for and are walking into a buzzsaw. but I am getting annoyed at hearing gauntlet will be competitive... You can play it competitively, it doesnt make the mode competitive

LNQ
07-11-2015, 01:48 AM
Competitive is just a buzzword that has no exact meaning. What is competitive and what is not? It's just as annoying to insist that the mode is not competitive when you can play it competitively.

There is no clear objective distinction between the two. Labeling game modes non-competitive is a way to make the mode less appealing and seemingly less worthy than the ones labeled competitive. Psychological warfare.

nicosharp
07-11-2015, 08:06 AM
Competitive is just a buzzword that has no exact meaning. What is competitive and what is not? It's just as annoying to insist that the mode is not competitive when you can play it competitively.

There is no clear objective distinction between the two. Labeling game modes non-competitive is a way to make the mode less appealing and seemingly less worthy than the ones labeled competitive. Psychological warfare.
Totally agree with this. Poor labeling with a poorer understanding of the definition.

TOOT
07-11-2015, 08:38 AM
Just because your win rate will likely be lower in Gauntlet constructed as opposed to 8 player constructed, it doesn't mean it's any less competitive.

The other thing people are ignoring with gauntlet is how much your hourly rate goes up because of way less idle time, in both constructed and sealed. It may very well be that a long term winning player would win more in gauntlet mode than their non gauntlet counterparts.

wolzarg
07-11-2015, 07:15 PM
Just because your win rate will likely be lower in Gauntlet constructed as opposed to 8 player constructed, it doesn't mean it's any less competitive.

The other thing people are ignoring with gauntlet is how much your hourly rate goes up because of way less idle time, in both constructed and sealed. It may very well be that a long term winning player would win more in gauntlet mode than their non gauntlet counterparts.
Or much worse depending on que time.

Xexist
07-11-2015, 08:49 PM
This. This here is where the thread should have ended.

This is perfect solution to a) inflated number of set 1 packs. b) newbies wanting to purchase set 1 packs and still have them be usable.

Let the format be whatever Crypto decides is best. let the buy in be any pack at all.

Disagreed for reasons that I think were already stated. People open a 'Phantom' Legendary they will just grief that they dont get to keep it.

WWKnight
07-11-2015, 09:47 PM
Disagreed for reasons that I think were already stated. People open a 'Phantom' Legendary they will just grief that they dont get to keep it.

You mean the way it works with every other dTCG out there?

People can grow a pair.

Patrigan
07-12-2015, 02:31 AM
Disagreed for reasons that I think were already stated. People open a 'Phantom' Legendary they will just grief that they dont get to keep it.

As already pointed out by WWKnight, it already happens that way in all other dTCGs. If this is an issue, then explain me the popularity of HS Arena. So yeah, if this is the only reason you think it's bad, then that's awesome, it means it's a great idea.

Jonesy
07-13-2015, 04:51 PM
you cant be a "Competitive" constructed players if you are playing without reserves. Reserves are a huge part of constructed.

Granted Best of 1 will have its own "Meta" as there are some decks, that some decks can't be prepared for and are walking into a buzzsaw. but I am getting annoyed at hearing gauntlet will be competitive... You can play it competitively, it doesnt make the mode competitive

Yeah you can, its just a different meta with different considerations. Decks that are better game one will be better overall, decks that rely on sideboards will be worse, and it may be wise to maindeck hate cards for popular decks. Plenty of games out there that don't have sideboards in any format that people still play competitively. Sure top players will probably have a slight dip in win-rate, larger dip if theyre stubborn and refuse to acknowledge the differences in the format, but you only need to go 5-2 to get maximum rewards so who cares if you lose a couple games to bad luck.


Why not all random? You bring packs, any packs. But the packs you actually open are randomly determined. Those packs are "shadow packs", at the end it opens the actual packs you brought and gives you the contents.

Needlessly confusing, if you want to enter with set 1 and 2 packs then sell them on the AH and buy set 3 ones. Thats the whole point of having an in-game currency, thats the whole point of currency irl as well. If you lose some money in the process, well I'm sorry the two things arent worth an equal amount but things aren't worth what you want them to be worth. I can't trade my old shoes for a new car either, but I live with it.

ziggarius
07-13-2015, 10:24 PM
As already pointed out by WWKnight, it already happens that way in all other dTCGs. If this is an issue, then explain me the popularity of HS Arena. So yeah, if this is the only reason you think it's bad, then that's awesome, it means it's a great idea.

Isn't Hearthstone arena one of the only ways to directly win boosters? And if competent enough can go "infinite" via gold? I don't play the game but that was understanding when i checked it once.

Fred
07-14-2015, 06:34 AM
I cannot imagine the rage someone would have losing 3 games to shard droughts/floods in best of 1 games.

In Gauntlet, if you lose 3 games to shard droughts/floods, you are eliminated.
In Competitive Draft, if you lose 3 games to shard droughts/floods, you are eliminated (heck, even losing just 2 games is enough).

I fail to see how the Gauntlet is worse in this situation.

poizonous
07-14-2015, 06:37 AM
In competitive draft you can actually lose 3 games to flood/drought and still win the tournament, since each round is best of 3

Fred
07-14-2015, 06:40 AM
In competitive draft you can actually lose 3 games to flood/drought and still win the tournament, since each round is best of 3

Except if you lose 2 games in a row due to bad draws. Get shard screwed in your first 2 games in a draft and you're out. Get shard screwed in you first 2 games in a gauntlet and you can still win the third match (and even end up 5-2).

The two formats are different, people. Pick one you like, and stop complaining about the other. It was not meant to appeal to you specifically.

poizonous
07-14-2015, 06:51 AM
Look, I dont know how much you pay attention to 8 man competitive queues, but they hardly fire. This entering the equation means they are likely to fire less. So whether I am appealed to this mode or not, odds are if i want to play a constructed tournament this will probably have to do. With that being said...

Competitive 8 man queue - 300 plat entry - best of 3 matches - better payouts
Gauntlet - 500 plat entry - best of 1 matches - casual payouts

So now I am stuck Paying more to enter, getting less for winning, and playing a mode I dont really want because we are separating the queues even more by offering this. So yes I do have a problem with this and my points are all very valid

Cainhu
07-14-2015, 07:14 AM
Honestly, I'm very happy with the new gauntlet modes.

Often I don't have time to sit hours at the game, often waiting 20+ minutes while other players finish their matches. That, if I even find a swiss draft to join in less than 2-3 hours...

For constructed, I see why some people don't like it, but I think gauntlet is still a far superior option to nothing, as quenes start really slowly for almost every format.

EntropyBall
07-14-2015, 09:55 AM
I think the Bo1 is a fine/good for sealed gauntlet, but they should've done Bo3 for constructed gauntlet so people could actually use it to prepare for constructed tournaments. There don't seem to be too many people saying that they think Bo1 is actually better/preferable for constructed.

Barkam
07-14-2015, 10:10 AM
I think the Bo1 is a fine/good for sealed gauntlet, but they should've done Bo3 for constructed gauntlet so people could actually use it to prepare for constructed tournaments. There don't seem to be too many people saying that they think Bo1 is actually better/preferable for constructed.

Agreed.

TOOT
07-14-2015, 10:26 AM
It's not supposed to be prep for constructed tournaments. It's supposed to be a mode for people with not a lot of time to play games. People who don't have 8hrs on a Saturday to play in a Cup event, and another 3 on Sunday. If you ask the people who this mode is designed for, they will tell you they are happy with constructed being 1 match.

As jonesy said, it's going to have it's own meta, separate from best of 3. If regular constructed tourneys didn't fire before, adding this isn't going to change much then is it?

It may not be popular as is amongst the regulars on the forum, but there is a subset of people not represented here much if at all... people who don't spend 8+hrs a day playing Hex or viewing the forums that this mode appeals to.

The quicker people stop trying to make this something that it's not, the better.

Gwaer
07-14-2015, 12:15 PM
Well said, toot. I agree, it is for people with less free time who wouldn't be doing constructed tournaments or drafts or sealed anyway most likely. It serves a different group of players, and I hope it serves them well.

Tazelbain
07-14-2015, 12:24 PM
Well said, toot. I agree, it is for people with less free time who wouldn't be doing constructed tournaments or drafts or sealed anyway most likely. It serves a different group of players, and I hope it serves them well.But it sucks being in the un-served group when gauntlet is so close serve both groups.

Yoss
07-14-2015, 01:40 PM
Sealed Gauntlet is great.

Constructed should have been like this:
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=32002

Zubrin
07-14-2015, 02:19 PM
I will certainly be playing a ton of sealed gauntlet and would be annoyed if the format were open ended in regards to what boosters you can enter with. I would have to check and crunch some numbers, but if I could put together any six boosters, I would be burning through more of my set 1 packs and fewer set 3 packs despite the variance of set 1.

The whole reason why I want to do gauntlet is to open packs for my collection and have a format I can play in the short moments of breaks that I get. If the optimal pack-opening strategy is not 6 set 3 packs, then I lose 80% of my early interest in gauntlet. I still would play to win and opening suboptimal packs is inferior; I might as well just go play a scheduled sealed tournament instead.

Tazelbain
07-14-2015, 02:34 PM
I would loved Bo3 open-ended constructed gauntlets. Trying for record run-streaks would be my Nirvana.

itsit
07-14-2015, 03:51 PM
It seems my post has left quite a bit of confusion. I originally intended to discuss sealed gauntlet, but I made a distinction between competitive and casual. Which has launched a pretty serious discussion on that topic. In retrospect, I regret stating those words because the concept is bound to create confusion as anything can be made competitive as long as people are actively competing. Sealed gauntlet and constructed gauntlet are objectively competitive in that regard.
However, it is not about the mode being competitive, it is about the degree of luck involved. Generally speaking, as the importance of luck grows, the relevance of skill and knowledge diminishes. Of course we can attempt to play around that, but that does not prevent others from being lucky, so it merely reduces the impact of luck to the highest possible degree. I want to say that this does not necessarily make players who like a higher degree of luck bad, it is mostly a matter of preference.
Which leads me to my original point, Gauntlet is a distinct mode that caters to a different type of player. As a result, the addition of gauntlet should have a minimal impact on the queues of tourneys. Which is mostly why I suggested adding set 1 and 2 to sealed gauntlet. The argument 'we want to make sure that queues fire more often' should not apply. Even if it would, the extent to which it applies is minimal.
Furthermore the set 1 and 2 addition to sealed gauntlet will only help to set it apart. To me it seems clear that the gauntlet mode is designed to be more accessible, which falls in line with the idea of allowing multiple sets.

On to some of the main argument raised against my suggestion, but first for the sake of clarity: This suggestion involves replacing the set 3 only sealed gauntlet mode with a sealed gauntlet mode that allows all packs that are still legal in constructed, or available at the in-game store.

There have been some people expressing their concern about imbalances that the addition of set 1 and 2 to sealed gauntlet may bring. While a legitimate concern, I believe it is important to take the incentive to use old packs in consideration. The reward system is specifically designed to penalize people that favor playing older sets, by randomizing and limiting the rewards based on the amount of older packs used. People running with 6 set 3 boosters are guaranteed to have 6 set3 boosters as rewards. But people running a human deck with 3 set1 and 3 set2 packs suffer from a very randomized reward pool. Consequently the incentive to run a overpowered set is in most cases low.
I understand that some players mainly play to get as much profit as possible or have the desire to fill out their collection as soon as possible. But catering to them seems excessive, if Hex wants to succeed then newer or more casual players deserve a place. There are more than enough other modes to maximize profit or fill out your collection, let gauntlet be a fun mode with a low threshold.
Apart from the former, the mentioned imbalances are likely to be present regardless of the game mode. Limiting sealed gauntlet to a single set does not guarantee a balanced environment, in fact sealed deck isn't very balanced by it's nature. I can't pick or deny like in draft, It's my luck of the draw against theirs. Personally, in sealed I would take more content over balance anytime. But as I said anything regarding balance in limited should be taken with a grain of salt, even more so with Bo1. You are bound to what you open, few people are lucky enough to consistently open set 1 and 2 packs full of good humans. So I doubt that balance will be a pressing issue in sealed gauntlet.

Apart from the response to the criticism, I would like to add two more advantages of the suggested change.

In the light of the concerns expressed by some players on the forum, regarding the value of pack 1 and 2. this suggested change to gauntlet may offer a solution, it is healthy for the in-game economy and favorable for the profits of Cryptozoic. Remember that the removal of set 1 and 2 from limited, will reduce the incentive to buy set 1 and 2 packs significantly. One could even claim that there is no remaining rational reason to buy set 1 and 2 packs from the in-game store. Being exempt from limited reduces not only the experience but it lowers the value of these packs significantly.
Furthermore it simply can't compete with buying individual cards outright, due to the huge pool of set 1 and 2 cards available on AH. The cost/value of these packs will remain absolutely atrocious for months. We can hope for a huge increase in the demand for set 1 and 2 due to a growth in the player base in the future. But for now these packs are a useless. Buying set 3 packs, playing sealed and selling your cards in order to buy indidual set is likely the superior option. The set 1,2,3 gauntlet gives these packs more use and it creates incentive for players and collectors to buy them from the in-game store.

A last important issue that I want to highlight is the damage that the removal of set 1 and 2 from limited has done to relatively new players. There are without doubt quite a few players severely disappointed and frustrated with this decision. From their point of view, the reasoning for the removal of set 1 and 2 is ludicrous. For them set 221 is not stale, so removing 70% of the content from limited eventually equates to an increase in staleness. Which in turn, contradicts the reasoning behind the removal, considering that the slow queues are directly caused by the game growing stale.
To make matters worse, the replies that they have gotten are pretty bad which is a shame considering the excellent community. I have seen too many people slinging around arguments that boil down to 'it's supposed to be' and 'it's a beta we don't care about new players', both absolutely absurd arguments.
Whether people like it or not, what happens now is relevant for the future of Hex. Ignoring the new user experience is a mistake, you can't drive costumers away expecting they will come back when the product is finished. Because by then they will be enjoying the thrills of a competitors game.

I do not have the time to lurk and post on these forums a lot. But I'll attempt to respond to criticism and discussion as soon as possible. I know that I should really refrain from these stupidly long posts, as I'm not good at making them readable. But long boring work days give me so much time to think.

LNQ
07-15-2015, 01:10 AM
In my opinion you vastly underestimate how silly and uninviting such a free for all sealed format would be. Not sure if you understand how intricate the balance is in limited. A simplified example: One set might have more evasion but also plenty of counters, while other sets dont need the evasion counters as there are no such threats in the set. If someone uses that set in your mode, they could build an evasion deck that players from other sets habe no answer to, ruining the experience.

You cant build a proper sealed deck that counters everything since there would be so many possible venues of attack. If everyone plays from the same small pool, you can build your deck knowing better what you can face. You don't have tens of different threats to account for.

I dont like the approach that if a mode has a slightly bigger luck factor than draft that we should go overboard and make it a mindless abuse fest of who finds the most broken combination of 6 boosters.

It would destroy my interest in the mode due to lack of any semblance of balance, and Im of the target audience that wants to play it as I have very limited free time.

Cainhu
07-15-2015, 02:29 AM
itsit

Honestly, I don't see why is it a problem if buying set 1-2 packs will be less desirable. On the same time set 3 packs will sell better, while set 1-2 will be still relevant for constructed.

Also, there is maybe already too much set 1-2 cards on the market.