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nicosharp
07-09-2015, 12:44 PM
I've had a long time to think about this as it pertains to HEX.
Special Encounters in PvE, like Uruunaz in the arena, are rare instances.
So rare, that many players may never see them.

Which makes me wonder, why is Uruunaz as an encounter special?
There are no hidden conditions that need to be met to achieve a Uruunaz sighting, outside of being lucky.
However, the rewards associated with finding, and destroying him have financial implications.

Now, in a game like HEX, luck plays a major factor in all instances of the game. From pack opening, to starting hand, to primal procs, to auction house snipes, to auction house sales, to guessing market trends.

Now PvE has a major luck factor as well. Is that a problem?
Are special encounters being server-wide proc %, not player specific proc % a problem for the games health?
Can HEX pretend it is like vanilla WOW giving Legendary Weapons to 1 or 2 players on a server when there is financial weight to unbound items in HEX?

I know Exclusivity is a highly protected and touted part of what the developers are protecting with HEX, but PvE exclusivity that has little to do with "challenge" seems unfair given the financial implications.

My ideas for HEX:
1) Tie Exclusivity to choice in PvE.
For Example - a Special Encounter could be a one time thing, where you can choose between a playset of 1 of 5 cards. The other 4 cards you will never have in your collection. (I think Cory mentioned this a long time ago in regards to Dinosaurs vs. Squirrels.)

2) Tie Exclusivity to account in PvE.
Another way the above example can be looked at is that, you get this rare encounter, and rare prize, but you can not profit off of it. It's a personal choice that influences your personal PvE experience.

3) Tie Special Encounters to Accounts for PvE, not the Server
I've explained this in other posts, but having Encounter % chances that can slowly increase over-time for your personal account, can give players that grind for the opportunity a better chance at finally being rewarded with the encounter. If luck and % chance is static server-wide, there will always be players that never see the encounter they grind for.

4) Have forgiveness for PvE Encounters
If a player fails at the encounter, make it easier for them to see the encounter again to give them another shot. After the encounter is successfully defeated - the ability to get it again either goes away forever, or resets.

Thoughts? (The above could be stand-alone or paired with another #)

Yoss
07-09-2015, 01:22 PM
I don't mind loot being locked behind a luck wall. I do mind content being locked behind a luck wall. In the case of Uruunaz, if the server-wide drop rates are where HXE wants them, then I'd much prefer that the encounter rate be 10x what it is now and the loot drop be made a 10% drop rate instead of 100% drop rate. This gives the same loot output while allowing players to actually play the content. Content like Uruunaz should only be rare enough to feel special when a player finds it, but common enough that every reasonably dedicated player can see it. In the case of Uruunaz, I would expect him to show up in perhaps 1 out of every 10 runs, and I would personally always have him appear at the very last slot, not randomly.

Flairina
07-09-2015, 01:37 PM
Agreed with pretty much every one of the ideas here. Uruunaz is too elusive, arena is a long and boring grind, etc etc etc. It wouldn't take much to improve on what we have now.

Salverus
07-09-2015, 01:49 PM
yes, yes, yes, PLEASE !
Continue fighting the arena with the sole reason to fight uruunaz gets boring and disappointing very quickly. Also afraid to use a non-optimal deck in case i run into him.

Thoom
07-09-2015, 02:27 PM
yes, yes, yes, PLEASE !
Continue fighting the arena with the sole reason to fight uruunaz gets boring and disappointing very quickly. Also afraid to use a non-optimal deck in case i run into him.

Mercenaries will eventually solve the non-optimal deck problem.

In general, I don't mind rare encounters like Uruunaz as long as they're used very sparingly. Maybe in 10% of dungeons, and maybe with less economically important rewards.

nicosharp
07-09-2015, 05:45 PM
Just to add to the original post - Grinding for Uruunaz is unfun.
Being unprepared for Uruunaz promotes stale grind-themed deck building.

If this is an unforeseen consequence of having uber-rare encounters tied to huge personal gains, it is unhealthy for the game, and for the community, and something should change.

Thoom
07-09-2015, 05:50 PM
It's a foreseen consequence of having an incomplete system. Mercenaries completely solve the "I'm not prepared for the super hard random boss" problem, because you can just build a Uruunaz-killing mercenary, play Arena with your fun deck, and call in the mercenary if Uru pops.

Blare731
07-09-2015, 06:06 PM
I saw Uruunaz like weeks after I had given up grinding everyday.

I was playing a very suboptimal deck to fight him and well... Drew 6 resources on the first hand.... Needless to say I lost and have never went back. I'm just waiting for campaign to come out at this point.

nicosharp
07-09-2015, 06:13 PM
It's a foreseen consequence of having an incomplete system. Mercenaries completely solve the "I'm not prepared for the super hard random boss" problem, because you can just build a Uruunaz-killing mercenary, play Arena with your fun deck, and call in the mercenary if Uru pops.
I think I've stopped planning and prepping new players for what's to come, and focus on what is. It seems too optimistic to hope this will happen, and be a fix to a bad system now. Of course, Mercenaries if playable in the arena for this instance helps, but it doesn't address the larger issue of server wide uber-rare spawns and what atmosphere it creates in a TCG.

There are several pieces in the game right now that can easily be compared here - as broken until more is available. Most of them hinge on PvE being launched correctly and successfully.

Svenn
07-09-2015, 07:29 PM
I do agree that Urunaaz is not a great special encounter, but I'm not a fan of most of these ideas.



1) Tie Exclusivity to choice in PvE.
For Example - a Special Encounter could be a one time thing, where you can choose between a playset of 1 of 5 cards. The other 4 cards you will never have in your collection. (I think Cory mentioned this a long time ago in regards to Dinosaurs vs. Squirrels.)
As a collector, this would really upset me. I hope they never do this.


2) Tie Exclusivity to account in PvE.
Another way the above example can be looked at is that, you get this rare encounter, and rare prize, but you can not profit off of it. It's a personal choice that influences your personal PvE experience.
I don't like this idea for a couple reasons. First, it hurts the f2p players because this is something that they can't sell/trade. Second, it means it's harder for you to get the pieces from this because you can't trade for them, especially if there is any randomness in the encounter or loot. Third, it goes against the whole idea of a trading card game.


3) Tie Special Encounters to Accounts for PvE, not the Server
I've explained this in other posts, but having Encounter % chances that can slowly increase over-time for your personal account, can give players that grind for the opportunity a better chance at finally being rewarded with the encounter. If luck and % chance is static server-wide, there will always be players that never see the encounter they grind for.
I'm unsure on this. It's a decent idea, but I can see some problems with it. It's going to be hard to balance such that the rewards are not too easily farmable and thus worthless. Also, how do you stop people from doing something like conceding over and over to quickly up their % chance?


4) Have forgiveness for PvE Encounters
If a player fails at the encounter, make it easier for them to see the encounter again to give them another shot. After the encounter is successfully defeated - the ability to get it again either goes away forever, or resets.
Similar thoughts to the above. It's okay I guess, but I think moving away from too much randomness in special encounters is better.

I think this is something that will likely not be much of a problem in the future though. The Arena is a random thing. It's a random gauntlet of enemies. That's it's whole thing. Dungeons, however, they've already said will have special hidden paths that are unlocked by completing certain things. As long as those things are not highly subjected to randomness then this will be a non-issue. I expect they will be more skill oriented (I assume things like keep alive a certain NPC for an encounter, or win via a special win condition, or other similar things). This will give the player a lot more control in reaching these special encounters instead of simply being a random chance.

nicosharp
07-09-2015, 07:55 PM
Hey Svenn,
1 and 2 have already been talked about - they may actually happen, or maybe Ideas from Devs have changed a lot since then. 2 is not too big of a deal, unless they make "rare encounters", "account encounters."

3 is easy to make solid - for example, now in the arena, your % chance does not increase unless you clear a boss, or increases only with a T4 boss kill.
4 is just to not placate 3 for someone that is both a farmer, and has shit luck on top of that.

Malcolm
07-09-2015, 08:59 PM
This...

I saw Uruunaz like weeks after I had given up grinding everyday.

I was playing a very suboptimal deck to fight him and well... Drew 6 resources on the first hand.... Needless to say I lost and have never went back. I'm just waiting for campaign to come out at this point.
is something game companies never want to hear. Especially from a customer who has put money and faith into your product on the level of Grand King. Its a customer saying "Tried it. Found game system not in-line with current PvE standards of fun. Might be back." :(

It makes people who haven't even bought into a game system yet say "Wait. That guy put $500 into a game for the PvE side and isn't happy? I'm not buying that."
Example: if someone were to show you their entire collection of RPG-flavorX, worth $500+, then say "Yeah, it was grindy, and then you couldn't really depend on Skill to beat the unique opponents, it was all luck, so I quit." Would you then honestly still buy that RPG?

Nico, I disagree with your statement in another thread about the AI being changed, BUT I respect and appreciate the time and energy you and others have put into the PvE aspect of the game.
And I'm glad you made this thread. I want HEX tcg to bring more people into the game; I want my family and friends who joined for the PvE side of the game to feel like they they can win vs. bosses like Uru and Xarlox with skill and luck. Not just purely flipping a coin.

I think more discussion is needed on all of your points. As it stands at the moment the current KS backings favor: Pro-Players and Collectors the most, especially for the last 2yrs.
The Dungeon/Raid rewards are sorely behind, no mention has been made of catching them up to the other two backer types, and instead more excuses are being given of "Well thats luck, if you don't like it: tough."
Having paid the exact same amount of money, I see no reason to dismiss or stop discussion on tweaking PvE (even Arena) encounters and rewards.

nicosharp
07-09-2015, 09:26 PM
Yeah, I can confirm it's the same AI. However, I do hope they do not plan to update the AI too much until a full PvE experience is launched.

I agree with some of the sentiments about the game starting to wear around the edges so to speak, but it comes from the perspective of someone that has been playing for quite some time. Grinding the arena is a sobering experience. I do hope there are more incentives soon to have "fun" while earning gold. You get to a certain point with a tuned deck, and fearing a Uruu sighting, you stick with it, despite the fact that you could be having fun trying other things that may or may not be effective.
My guess is you disagreed with this statement from a previous post above, Malcolm?
Curious as to which part? The AI has not improved... not yet at least.

I don't think the game can be very forgiving for PvE players unless they allow PvE buffs through passive talents that allow a player to "reset" so "screw" doesn't happen as often. I think PvE will offer that, but RNG is RNG, and its just gonna nip you at times. The experience for each player will always be unique, but should be positive if they work on the training wheels a bit more and the friendliness of the PvE experience and ramp up. Sadly, a lot of this hinges on PvE when 'actual' PvE launches.

It still does not address these rare-spawn scenarios.
The comments about the kickstarter tiers, or money spent, are all different discussions.
In terms of PvE and being able to defeat encounters - sure, that's an issue, but has more to do with player comfort, and game progression. Arena is not made to appease either. PvE should offer that ramp. Not Uruunaz and Xarlox.

WWKnight
07-09-2015, 09:27 PM
Ive run into Uraanaz 3 times. Once with my strongest deck and won. Once with a brand new test deck and won based on mono sapphire "storm" theme, and once with a strong but gimmicky plant themed deck and lost.

I do not mind that I missed the chance, nor do I stop playing things taht I find fun on the off chance I might bump into him. I LOVE that he is a rare random encounter. Its exciting to see him, whether I win or not. Winning, obviously makes me happier, but I dont think people can say they play unfun grind decks because they might run into him as a downside. That's a choice they make, not the game.

thegreybetween
07-09-2015, 09:32 PM
We'll probably all feel that way after we've defeated him at least once :p

nicosharp
07-09-2015, 09:36 PM
I do not mind that I missed the chance, nor do I stop playing things taht I find fun on the off chance I might bump into him. I LOVE that he is a rare random encounter. Its exciting to see him, whether I win or not. Winning, obviously makes me happier, but I dont think people can say they play unfun grind decks because they might run into him as a downside. That's a choice they make, not the game.
I know people say it, can say it, and will say it. Everyone has a choice, but choice is often influenced by the pros and cons associated with each choice. Less risk, higher reward is sadly a choice people are easily steered towards. It's never forced, but heavily incentivized.

If you were on the other end of the fence with 0 encounters - or 1 encounter where you failed, your outlook could very well be different. Hard to say now.

Flairina
07-09-2015, 09:39 PM
Ive run into Uraanaz 3 times. Once with my strongest deck and won. Once with a brand new test deck and won based on mono sapphire "storm" theme, and once with a strong but gimmicky plant themed deck and lost.

I do not mind that I missed the chance, nor do I stop playing things taht I find fun on the off chance I might bump into him. I LOVE that he is a rare random encounter. Its exciting to see him, whether I win or not. Winning, obviously makes me happier, but I dont think people can say they play unfun grind decks because they might run into him as a downside. That's a choice they make, not the game.

You can say this as someone who's already run in to him and won. Other people see it differently, because they still haven't gotten any of his exclusive loot. Would you be happy knowing the one time you ran in to him, you were playing a weak, "fun" deck and lost out because of that? Of course you wouldn't. if everyone had already found and won against Uruunaz once I doubt there would be much of an issue.

WWKnight
07-09-2015, 09:44 PM
I can honestly say, with certainty, if I hadnt beaten him Id feel the same way. There are many things in life I dont have and never will have. This would just be one other I dont have and can still get.

Svenn
07-09-2015, 10:23 PM
Hey Svenn,
1 and 2 have already been talked about - they may actually happen, or maybe Ideas from Devs have changed a lot since then. 2 is not too big of a deal, unless they make "rare encounters", "account encounters."

3 is easy to make solid - for example, now in the arena, your % chance does not increase unless you clear a boss, or increases only with a T4 boss kill.
4 is just to not placate 3 for someone that is both a farmer, and has shit luck on top of that.

1 was discussed a long time ago. Things have changed a lot since then. Originally you had to pick Ardent or Underworld and the side you chose would block things off to you... they threw that out last I heard. I'm guessing they realized how much that would upset some people. I don't remember them talking about 2?

Increasing your chances to find Uruunaz slightly after every boss is a nice idea. I like it. I don't think that type of thing should be used everywhere (as I said above, I'm in favor of getting to most special encounters via some sort of skill based challenge instead of pure randomness), but it would be an interesting way to deal with Uruunaz. They might have to tweak some things in order to make that work (like lowering the amount of gold he drops since he's essentially farmable), but it could work.

ziggarius
07-09-2015, 11:22 PM
It could just be an increase until you beat Uruunaz and once beaten you only get base rate. For the record though, Uruunaz doesn't exist in the arena unless you put him inn your deck. So, even a 10,000% increase in encounter rate is meaningless.

Gorgol
07-09-2015, 11:37 PM
It could just be an increase until you beat Uruunaz and once beaten you only get base rate. For the record though, Uruunaz doesn't exist in the arena unless you put him inn your deck. So, even a 10,000% increase in encounter rate is meaningless.
Really?

WWKnight
07-10-2015, 05:58 AM
Really?

No >.>

ziggarius
07-10-2015, 06:27 AM
Guess I should have put a smiley on there :P I've never met Uruunaz, and never had the supposed dragon badge thing that shows up if Uruunaz existed and you fail a run. So, to me literally doesn't exist. :rolleyes:

Jonesy
07-10-2015, 05:32 PM
Rarity makes things special, everyone who gets super excited about beating uruunaz wouldn't give a shit if he wasn't rare and he'd just be another xarlox. The current setup is fine, although I wouldn't mind pseudo-randomization so the longer you go without seeing him the more likely it is you see him.

Flairina
07-10-2015, 06:23 PM
Guess I should have put a smiley on there :P I've never met Uruunaz, and never had the supposed dragon badge thing that shows up if Uruunaz existed and you fail a run. So, to me literally doesn't exist. :rolleyes:

Doesn't show up if you fail a run, it shows up if you quit a round early. You don't get to know if you fail. :P

Yoss
07-10-2015, 08:09 PM
Rarity makes things special, everyone who gets super excited about beating uruunaz wouldn't give a shit if he wasn't rare and he'd just be another xarlox. The current setup is fine, although I wouldn't mind pseudo-randomization so the longer you go without seeing him the more likely it is you see him.

I'd much prefer to split the excitement between the encounter and the loot. Finding him should be only moderately hard. Beating him should be hard (too bad the AI isn't there yet). Looting him should be very hard (equal to how it is now through use of RNG on the drops).

ziggarius
07-10-2015, 08:47 PM
Honestly, I don't care about the 100k gold. I just want to fight him and get the sleeves. I wouldn't mind the PvE cards/gear, but Uruunaz doesn't exist in my arena runs. :rolleyes:

Yoss
07-10-2015, 08:55 PM
FWIW, I would make the sleeves only drop as RNG as well once the encounter rate was increased.

Flairina
07-10-2015, 09:10 PM
Honestly, I don't care about the 100k gold. I just want to fight him and get the sleeves. I wouldn't mind the PvE cards/gear, but Uruunaz doesn't exist in my arena runs. :rolleyes:

Same. The gold and burrowers are nice but the sleeves are what I'm chasing.

Gwaer
07-10-2015, 09:12 PM
I wouldn't chase him now, honestly. Most decks will beat him, he's super easy. Once the ai is better I imagine they'll increase his encounter rate, chase him then.

ziggarius
07-10-2015, 09:58 PM
I wouldn't chase him now, honestly. Most decks will beat him, he's super easy. Once the ai is better I imagine they'll increase his encounter rate, chase him then.

I don't chase him, Uruunaz doesn't exist. :P

Xavon
07-10-2015, 11:49 PM
I'd like to see hidden encounters with special requirements; like beat any two of Gabe, Cory, Dragon Guard, and AdHero, and Queen Grace shows up as the final boss with unique drops. Or beat one of the two robots and one of the three dwarves, and Droo's Walker is the last boss (with unique drops). Or beat any 2 of Storm Cloud, Seaweed Behemoth, and Eldritch Dreamer and Shoggoth is the last boss (with unique drops).

And if you fulfill two or more of those, you get to:
a) choose your last boss?
b) fight them all one at a time?
c) have them gang up on you (with better drops)?
d) have a 1 on 1 on 1 (on 1) fight?
Those are suggestions, I'm not sure which would be best but I'm not saying the player gets to choose one of them...

WWKnight
07-11-2015, 12:26 AM
That would be fun.

nicetodd
07-11-2015, 08:14 AM
Yes yes yes yes yes. Anything that unhides content. Also, as I said before... If replayabiluty in pve means rng grinding to even see a special boss... this is not many peoples idea of reply ability. Replay ability means if I take a different choice/path there is some different outcome.