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Altima
07-12-2015, 10:40 AM
As a beginner, Hex's core game is so good but there are so many wrong things in this game.

I have played a lot of card games. I play them at local store. I play them online. Now I'm playing Hex.

The core game is so good. It feels like DotP + MTGO + Hearthstone + auction house and I like it. I love trading card and I love collecting them. I like draft and seal, too. However, there are so many wrong thing in this game. Maybe you plan to improve them in the future but I like your game and I would like to tell you about them now before I forget about them.

1. No proper matchmaking. I heard about your new feature aka Gauntlet but it is not a proper matchmaking. There is proving ground which reward nothing and barely any people play it at this moment. I want to play against opponent with my skill but no one are on the queue. I also think that bigger button for matchmaking should be good.

2. Reward system is all wrong. You said that Hex is an MMO, right? Well, I better ask you "What people usually do in MMO games?". The answer is simple.
1.Grinding/Making a progress
2.Having fun
There will be a problem when you cannot provide both of them at the same time. Now you have Frost Ring Arena and I heard that you completely removed gold reward from F2P PvP. I think Frost Ring Arena is quite fun but it become more and more boring when I have to do it again and again for more gold to purchase cards in auction house. Frost Ring arena also make your proving ground a barren because there is no reward for playing PvP.

3. Pack opening is more satisfy than buying single. Ok, I'm going to grind all day to buy those fucking expensive cards and my deck will be complete. Is that sound fun for you? Maybe. How about "I have just crack my pack and I have got this cool card. I have to build a deck for it.". Is that your feeling when you get a cool card from the pack? Can you remember those feeling when addictive smell of new cards from MTG booster kick your nose, you feel this new card is so cool and you have to buy some more cards to make a deck for it? In Hex if you are F2P players you won't get that feeling. You will have to grind for a deck that you have already know what it can do.

4. Arena design rewards aggro more than other types of deck. You better see Hearthstone which is a good example for PvE done right in card game. In Hex to grind fastest in Arena you have to build red deck win or drawf/artifact deck which is also red. I would like to share my feeling that I feel so terrible when I picked rabbit deck and when I googled about arena they said that Drawf deck is the best against Frost Ring Arena. Damn it! (I tried create new account to get drawf deck but I cannot use my old name so I gave that up.)

5. Beginner decks depend on race over color. Maybe you like onslaught or Larwyn in MTG more than other sets but they are not my cup of tea. When you depend on race over color you will have very limit card pool to choose from but if you start with color you will have a lot more cards to choose from and 4 more color to splash into your deck. When I have my first green deck in MTG I tried to build it into many kind of deck. I tried add red, blue, white, and black and see how it work out and I felt so much fun. In Hex I picked Shin'hare deck and I have to grind to buy more Shin'hare into my deck which is a very limit option.

6. Too few cards for new players. You get a deck of 60 cards and other 20-30 cards from beginner campaign. That is clearly not enough to have fun with card game. I have a good question for you. Why do you like playing card game? My answer is because I can play them how I want to play. I can customize my own deck. I can do something very awesome or very weird in my deck. In Hearthstone Blizzard give you a lot of basic cards for each classes so you can make at least 9 decks by mixing your neutral cards and class cards. In MTGO only register your account give you enough cards to build so many kinds of deck. In real life saying you are a beginner and want to try MTG at local card store you will get shit load of cards to build your deck for free. This is what people want from playing card game. They want to build their own decks. They want to customize it and sometime they want to change how it play. Hex does not provide this to new players. New players have to grind for one specific card at a time to build a deck that already in their mind.

7. You treat F2P players poorly. I believe that some of you think that I'm greedy F2P player who want everything for free but I'm not. I have played a lot of card game and paid for it for thousands dollars like most of people here but why do you expect people to start paying for your game if you do not give them a good experience in the first place. I borrowed MTG decks from my friend to play before I started buying card myself. I played a shit ton of Hearthstone game against various decks before I start buying packs. Now I'm grinding in Hex to death with only one deck against same opponents AI, feel so boring and design to give you my money. That is nonsense. Maybe someone will do it because of frustration of grinding but is that your feeling when you design to purchase you first MTG deck? Definitely not.

8. Phantom draft. May I ask for it? Like hearthstone arena you can anticipate in this tournament without booster packs but you wont get cards that you opened from those boosters. Not a major complaint but I would like to have it. You should let new players to try this limited tournament as well and phantom tournament is the best way for it. (Seriously, who want to pay 10 buck for a game that you do not really know how to play.)

I think sometimes developers do not know about new players feeling(Of course, they have all cards available to play at all time). Some of them quit without giving any feedback and some of them got bashed by the community when they complain which are very normal for any games communities. Anyway, this is how I sincerely feel about your game. The game is in beta I know it but it is hard to call it in beta period when everyone has an assess to your game freely.

Grimshaw
07-12-2015, 10:48 AM
Thanks for taking the time to type up your thoughts. The effort shows.

I don't think anyone, most of all the Hex team, is truly satisfied with the F2P experience. They're behind on delivering the proper introduction to the game, and have put out certain stop-gap solutions like the Arena and the Starter Trials. The next big content update will be the release of the F2P dungeon component of the game that will bring in the proper introduction and reward stream to Hex.

Phantom drafts are a hot topic around here. They've hinted at the possibility of a dungeon that plays out similarly to a draft, which would be a nice solution, though it probably won't be ready to release with the first set of dungeons. I don't think they have any intentions to allow for PVP phantom drafts at this time.

Axle
07-12-2015, 11:01 AM
Thanks for sharing your input. All very valid.

In terms of PVE, I think a lot of your problems you're having are fixed in the campaign that is the next major release after Armies of Myth. The Frost Ring Arena is just a placeholder filled with things that needed to be developed for the campaign to work anyways. Campaign is the true MMO features.

Mahes
07-12-2015, 11:17 AM
The main problem is that the game is far from complete. This is why we are still not really in Open Beta. I think and hope that once the dungeon PvE is added the FTP portion will not be as harsh because it will be a lot more enjoyable to play PvE.

I agree that the Arena is boring. Honestly they could make some simple changes that would enhance it a little. Add a couple more secret bosses and increase the chance of seeing them while decreasing the loot acquired would help immensely. The way they did the super, good luck winning the gold lottery, dragon is so far the worst design decision this game has had. That being said, I think they are done doing anything with the Arena at this point as they want to concentrate on the real PvE experience. This means that new and old players will have to wait.

nicosharp
07-12-2015, 11:26 AM
Pretty good feedback. I could clarify on a few points, but there is no need -
Coming from a new player, this needs to be read and adjusted for by development, not corrected points by forum users..

Gwaer
07-12-2015, 11:46 AM
Yep, great feedback thanks for taking the time to write it up. Let me just say that the devs and the community at large are aware of these problems and know that they're problems. I'd say that most of what we have today is a proof of concept. Arena earns you over a dollar an hour as a f2p option. This is incredible, but it does get boring you're absolutely right, having an AH is better than pretty much every other dtcg but it's a very limited auction house. I promise it will get better, just needs time. The devs are actively working on it, though.

wasichu
07-12-2015, 12:26 PM
I feel ya bro, I have been in alpha since day one and I agree with alot of what you say. See I was a slackerbacker and I didn't receive my codes for two weeks after every one else did. And just having a starter deck blew chunks. I think every one should be able to pay 10 bucks and unlock the other three starter decks to have some deck building variety in the beginning. And when a new block of starter decks comes out you pay 10 bucks and get all 4. I believe in giving new players the tools to get in and get a good feel for the game. Heck I would even give them the first draft ticket( the one that just covers the 100 plat entry fee) for free after completing all the starter trials.

In my opinion some card prices are pretty darn high on AH in comparison to that other company card prices. I was kinda hoping no digital card would ever exceed ten bucks but thats wishing.

But yea the proving grounds is a big disappointment. The only time it got some sort of love was when the gave you fart dust of 100 gold for a win, but hey it was something. And proving grounds is 80% of the reason I play hex. I will vomit If i do one more arena grind. Which is sad that a cool part of the game has made you grind something to that point. I loved the arena at the start.

I am glad for the gauntlet because I don.t always have the time for a full draft. I would love a phantom draft like you speak that would be like 100 plat to enter for new peeps and give like a pack to the winner and gold to second (10k gold)and third places(5kgold).

Gwaer
07-12-2015, 12:55 PM
At current gold prices, second place would get your more value than first =P

Xexist
07-12-2015, 01:03 PM
Thank you for the valuable WELL WRITTEN feedback. All new player feedback is good, but yours was well written and well explained which in my mind is even more valuable.

I might be in the minority but I think new accounts should start with ALL starter decks. It might sadly devalue the cards contained within, but by and large I think it would allow new players some creativity and to learn deck building skills with multi shard decks etc and they wouldnt feel so shafted after they 'pick the wrong deck' to start etc.

nicosharp
07-12-2015, 01:04 PM
Thank you for the valuable WELL WRITTEN feedback. All new player feedback is good, but yours was well written and well explained which in my mind is even more valuable.

I might be in the minority but I think new accounts should start with ALL starter decks. It might sadly devalue the cards contained within, but by and large I think it would allow new players some creativity and to learn deck building skills with multi shard decks etc and they wouldnt feel so shafted after they 'pick the wrong deck' to start etc.
I've mentioned this before as well. It makes a lot of sense... and placates the artificial need some players have to make multiple accounts. Maybe one day we will come to a point where they find this valuable and do not worry about the perceived value lost by a few KS backers.. It's value gain for everyone. (and they would be bind on account cards, so no worries about them being traded)

TOOT
07-12-2015, 01:21 PM
+1 to giving all accounts the 4 basic starter decks, binded of course.

selpai
07-12-2015, 01:45 PM
I have played a lot of card game and paid for it for thousands dollars like most of people here

ROFL!

No... That's ridiculous, and probably indicative of deeper addictive tendencies if you have.

Axle
07-12-2015, 01:52 PM
ROFL!

No... That's ridiculous, and probably indicative of deeper addictive tendencies if you have.

Huh? Certainly not most of the people but why go on the offensive here?

Xexist
07-12-2015, 01:57 PM
Huh? Certainly not most of the people but why go on the offensive here?

I hope Selpai notices me

The_Lannisters
07-12-2015, 02:16 PM
To be honest, I find odd that someone who claims to have spent thousands of dollars in games doesn't fancy trying out a few drafts. Drafts are well priced and a ton of fun. Also arguably the best way to increase your collection.

For people who rather would not spend real money on the game I understand that the current Arena grind may get old pretty fast. I'm confident it'll get better but, as most veterans will tell you, we are still in Beta for a reason.

Crimguy
07-12-2015, 02:37 PM
I too give +1 for giving away all 4 races. Started trial could start with orcs and progress until all cards are given to you. In other words, each round requires you to use premade decks, rewarding additional cards until a good starter set for each race is in your collection. The end result would be that the new player has about 150 cards, which should be a drop in the bucket compared to the full number of cards out there that he will want. After completing the trial, award about 8,000 gold to spend in the AH.

LNQ
07-12-2015, 02:40 PM
One new idea came to mind about point number 3: It would be nice if PvE rewards came in the form of packs / chests / something that had the same cool feeling you get from opening PvP packs. The way you get rewards in Frost Ring Arena leaves a lot to wish for.

And I'm in the group supporting giving all starters to all players (untradable) for free. Maybe at first you don't get any cards, you can only select a starter trial. If you beat that starter trial, you gain that starter deck into your collection. Kinda like Mega Man.

magic_gazz
07-12-2015, 02:42 PM
You make a lot of interesting points. A lot of them have been addressed multiple times in the past.

Its nice that you want to give your thoughts, but maybe a little looking on your part would have answered some of you complaints.

Also if you have spent THOUSANDS on card games, Hex is a very cheap option in comparison, so chuck a few bucks in and do a draft.

LNQ
07-12-2015, 02:44 PM
In my opinion no reason to criticize the OP. This kind of feedback is valuable no matter how many times any of the points have been discussed and answered.

Gwaer
07-12-2015, 02:47 PM
I do agree, no need to criticize the OP, it was a well written and reasoned post.

I also agree, throw down a little for some drafts. It's well worth, great value.

magic_gazz
07-12-2015, 02:48 PM
In my opinion no reason to criticize the OP. This kind of feedback is valuable no matter how many times any of the points have been discussed and answered.

Peoples first port of call should not be to complain, it should be to gather information to see if there is something to complain about.

LNQ
07-12-2015, 02:52 PM
New player feedback is invaluable to any game and should be encouraged, regardless of if it's negative or positive. Most new players don't gather information before making judgement on the game, so feedback without further research is actually better than feedback corrupted by better knowledge.

Thoom
07-12-2015, 04:55 PM
And I'm in the group supporting giving all starters to all players (untradable) for free. Maybe at first you don't get any cards, you can only select a starter trial. If you beat that starter trial, you gain that starter deck into your collection. Kinda like Mega Man.

100% in favor of this idea. One of the biggest issues I have selling the new/F2P experience to other people is that you have to make a decision that makes an enormous impact on your ability to win PVE matches early on before you know anything about the game. Especially since the weakest starter decks (human/shinhare) are quite appealing if you don't know the mechanics very well, this can be punishing for a new player.

Letting new players easily earn the starter decks they didn't pick to start with would seriously boost accessibility, at very little cost.

Mahes
07-12-2015, 05:56 PM
The more I think about it, the more I agree that all new players should get a non tradable version of every starter deck.

Yes they have rares but they are one of's and cannot be sold. It would allow new players then to try the game from many points of attack and even build thier own versions without feeling like it is an All in or no enjoyment kind of deal. From a business point of view, the better the bait, the more likely you hook a player.

Gwaer
07-12-2015, 06:12 PM
Just let everyone have a random starter deck with untradable cards for free that changes regularly, then if people like it, they can buy it from the store, or buy the singles to make it, similar to the league of legends free champ rotation. Heck go beyond starters and just have highlighted decks that come and go.

nicosharp
07-12-2015, 06:18 PM
Just let everyone have a random starter deck with untradable cards for free that changes regularly, then if people like it, they can buy it from the store, or buy the singles to make it, similar to the league of legends free champ rotation. Heck go beyond starters and just have highlighted decks that come and go.

I don't think it works quite as well in this scenario.
Also, little disappointed you didn't win buffalord vanity card.

Gwaer
07-12-2015, 06:19 PM
I know, so disappoint. =(


On topic though, I think whenever you go to select a deck if there was a gold background daily deck that you can view but not edit would work pretty well. Especially if only say 1/5 of the population had the same free deck. Could have it cycle every couple days so you have a two week period of people using the same 5 decks at various times. Have a link to directly buy the cards off the AH that you need at their lowest buyout. Seems like it would work pretty awesomely to me

nicosharp
07-12-2015, 06:41 PM
I know, so disappoint. =(


On topic though, I think whenever you go to select a deck if there was a gold background daily deck that you can view but not edit would work pretty well. Especially if only say 1/5 of the population had the same free deck. Could have it cycle every couple days so you have a two week period of people using the same 5 decks at various times. Have a link to directly buy the cards off the AH that you need at their lowest buyout. Seems like it would work pretty awesomely to me
The wide net HEX could cast by allowing players to have access to all decks initially though open up a lot of areas for them to find something that interests them in the game, and develops a quick interest for them to expand on those interests.

I know it goes against the current system with tied financial gains for HEX, but its hard to say that system right now, is a good one. It's hard to say it will be a good one when PvE launches. It's also hard to say the current system doesn't push away more players than it could pull in by giving them a virtual smorgasbord to start with.

Mejis
07-12-2015, 06:59 PM
I know, so disappoint. =(


On topic though, I think whenever you go to select a deck if there was a gold background daily deck that you can view but not edit would work pretty well. Especially if only say 1/5 of the population had the same free deck. Could have it cycle every couple days so you have a two week period of people using the same 5 decks at various times. Have a link to directly buy the cards off the AH that you need at their lowest buyout. Seems like it would work pretty awesomely to me

Wow, this is a really awesome suggestion. I love the idea of cycled pre-constructed decks that people could try out. This way they get a feel for new decks and strategies and are incentivised to invest in the ones they like, whilst at the same time getting to play different styles all without having to feel they made the wrong choice in which starter deck they picked.

Gwaer
07-12-2015, 07:03 PM
The wide net HEX could cast by allowing players to have access to all decks initially though open up a lot of areas for them to find something that interests them in the game, and develops a quick interest for them to expand on those interests.

I know it goes against the current system with tied financial gains for HEX, but its hard to say that system right now, is a good one. It's hard to say it will be a good one when PvE launches. It's also hard to say the current system doesn't push away more players than it could pull in by giving them a virtual smorgasbord to start with.

I feel like PVE will cast the wide net you're talking about, my suggestion is more of a long term thing. They could do a week where they rotate through the top 8 decks in a major tournament or something, not just starter decks.

Voormas
07-12-2015, 07:05 PM
Depending how they end up implementing the Guild Bank it could work in a similar way - cool suggestion :)

Yoss
07-12-2015, 07:24 PM
I support some form of either letting players try all the starter decks before picking, or just giving them all the starters. I'd lean towards letting them try first then pick one.

darkwonders
07-12-2015, 07:33 PM
Or allow people to unlock the other starter decks at least without having to go through the trouble of rebuilding one from the auction house...

Considering none of the starter decks are even worth the 1000 platinum, it seems like a really high price for them to begin with.

Xexist
07-12-2015, 07:41 PM
I support some form of either letting players try all the starter decks before picking, or just giving them all the starters. I'd lean towards letting them try first then pick one.

Interesting thought. Maybe the tutorial / trials can involve beating encounters with all 5 shards, and then after the trials, you pick your starter deck. I like the idea of new players starting with more than they currently do, but if they only get one starter deck I fully support them getting to try all before they choose their keeper.

IronPheasant
07-12-2015, 10:00 PM
A lot of you are coming from the perspective of an established MTG player. What we need isn't a "trial run" of a starter, all we needed was a list of the cards. I know if I had actually looked at the Shin'hare list first, I'd have been rather confused at its massive flaws and low $value and have picked the human one instead.

From the perspective of complete off-the-boat newb, asking them to make a life long commitment in the first 2 seconds or hours is a cruel thing to do. Just learning the game, how one (1) deck works*, asking them to give the game a try, that's asking a lot.

Personally I would have it possible to select one, and acquire the others through like 10 or 20 AI games for each one. All account bound of course. There would be players who wouldn't bother to do this grind.


* It puts the Major Ruby of Destruction in the Master Theorycrafter. It does when it is told. Or else it gets the hose again

Yoss
07-12-2015, 10:06 PM
I'd be OK with that too.

Also, to those who may not know, there are at least two places to look up what's in the decks. The store in game will show you if you click the little "i" icon near each deck. The website has them, but there's no way to navigate there, so it's hard to find (http://www.hextcg.com/starter%20decks/). Neither of these is particularly intuitive, nor part of the tutorial.

Gwaer
07-12-2015, 10:09 PM
Also, don't you have to pick your starter deck before you even see the tutorial? This is just a problem with hex's very early implementation of account creation. It must improve in the PVE patch. I agree that it's a huge deterrent for new players. I don't agree they everyone should get all starter decks for free. I think there's a better long term solution. Especially if they're going to introduce new starters every block.

WWKnight
07-12-2015, 10:16 PM
Infinity Wars gives out 4 decks for free every week. A rental system if you will. The deck lists are added to everyones account, and when you select a deck, its just sitting there waiting to be used.

Every week, the decks change to something new. This gives every player a chance to play with whatever they like and get a feel for different deck archetypes.

Thoom
07-12-2015, 10:33 PM
I don't agree they everyone should get all starter decks for free. I think there's a better long term solution. Especially if they're going to introduce new starters every block.

When we got our KS rewards, everyone got all 4 starters, even if the tier they pledged for had fewer (probably because it was too much work to make a picker UI that let you select more than one). Those cards were even tradable, unlike the free starters of today. And yet nothing disastrous resulted.

Gwaer
07-12-2015, 10:39 PM
The kickstarters were a special case obviously, and they didn't get the new starter decks. So I think it's a misleading comparison. A single event where the first starter decks were given for a discount(not free) is not the same as giving all starter decks to everyone all the time.

Zophie
07-12-2015, 10:47 PM
Yeah now that we're getting more Starter Decks in the game I'd be in favor of just having a weekly rotation of like 2-4 starter decks available for everyone to try free for the week, but you don't keep any of the cards when they rotate out again, similar to Heroes/League. If you want to keep any of them you just purchase the cards/decks to permanently add them to your collection.

Thoom
07-12-2015, 10:56 PM
Still, I think there has to be a non-paying route to digging yourself out of the "I picked a bad starter" hole. Making a bad choice and having your options for reversing it be "break the TOS", "beg in chat", or "fork over $X" is not a good situation to put a new player you want to retain in.

Clearly HexEnt is aware of the problem. Cory mentioned the onboarding experience as one of the things that needed work in his charity stream interview, so I suspect/hope they'll have a good solution ready for the PVE patch, so for now the best we can do is smile and patiently explain the status quo to new players (perhaps with an offer of some free common/uncommons) and hope it doesn't turn them off too much.

Gwaer
07-12-2015, 10:58 PM
I agree with you about that 100%. I just don't think the answer is give everyone all the starters all the time. I think it's more like, make extensive use of all the starters in a tutorial campaign, then after you're comfortable with them pick one, and then the free rotating temporary decks on top of that so that you can change it up and get deck ideas that you can actually tangibly make use of.

nicosharp
07-12-2015, 11:15 PM
I agree with you about that 100%. I just don't think the answer is give everyone all the starters all the time. I think it's more like, make extensive use of all the starters in a tutorial campaign, then after you're comfortable with them pick one, and then the free rotating temporary decks on top of that so that you can change it up and get deck ideas that you can actually tangibly make use of.
The only reason why I think making them all accessible is good is its a "Hearthstone Approach".
I say that in the best way possible.
One of the best things I think HS does is it gives all new players a glimpse into all the playable "classes" as part of the new player experience. Its the players job at that point to pick the one they like and build from there.
I know this is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, but I think it would be a good approach for HEX as well, although it does go against the games initial design of all cards, and starters having value.

We will see. All the ideas work, my fear though is, any limitation to starter content access, will create a need and want for multiple accounts, no matter how you dice it.

Thoom
07-12-2015, 11:15 PM
(edit: @Gwaer) I think that's also a completely valid solution.

The one thing that makes me hesitant is that it's probably a fair amount of UI work (to make an uneditable deck that doesn't draw cards from your collection), whereas all the mechanics for "the 5th starter trial reward is 3k gold, and starter decks now cost 3k gold instead of 1k plat, but are untradeable" are in game already.

Aradon
07-12-2015, 11:30 PM
Would it be possible to make a 'Core' set that has a stable of non-rotating PvP cards that are either always available by default? They can be a small selection of simple building blocks like Burn and Oracle Song, so that players can always branch into those colors without having to travel to the Auction House to pick them up. Once they get settled in with the core cards, they can start experimenting with more options from the AH or packs.

I feel like if it doesn't rotate, though, the metagame could be somewhat stagnant.

IronPheasant
07-13-2015, 12:13 AM
I don't agree they everyone should get all starter decks for free.

Putting $2.50 of value behind one hour of grinding isn't really free. Roughly double the income rate of frost arena.

Maybe less, if you acquire some Xocoys, meet the Loch Ness Monster, turn over a Dream Stag for 700 g...

Gwaer
07-13-2015, 12:14 AM
@Thoom most of the back end tech seems like it's already there. They can lock decks in the arena to not be edited, they can add and remove cards from your collection. Yes it would be a lot of work. But not an insurmountable one. It's definitely not as much work as checking the AH for cheapest prices and having a 'Buy this deck now' button. Which is something Cory has talked about wanting and would pair very well with a rotating pre-constructed deck system.

@aradon
I'm personally against the idea of staple Pvp Commons that are always available, however I think the intro tutorial campaign section of the game can provide a stable collection of pve cards you can build basic decks from.

@iron pheasant
You think the new starters will be worth 2.50 when they launch? I very much don't. That example is only reasonable because the kickstarter destroyed the value of the original starters.

Cainhu
07-13-2015, 12:56 AM
Hi,

I think all starters should be available for free, at least the first four.

PoxNora, a digital collectible game offers a free starter for every of its 8 factions/colors if you do some very basic trials, AND the runes in the decks are tradeable. Those are not very valuable runes, but still... and they didn't broke the economy.

Also, all of the starter decks are suitable for the PvE experience. They also offer some weekly rotation of decks you may use, even in a special PvP format, where only preconstruted decks are playable, which are somewhat balanced against each other.

IronPheasant
07-13-2015, 01:54 AM
You think the new starters will be worth 2.50 when they launch? I very much don't. That example is only reasonable because the kickstarter destroyed the value of the original starters.

I... don't know what to say to that. You think dump $0.25-$0.50 rares are worth more than that? You think $0.00 commons are worth more than that?

Yeah sure, pick it up off the auction house using buyouts and you'll be gouged for about $3.75. What can you say, it's a seller's market currently.

Gorefeast is the outlier here. Some of these things could barely make the cut at uncommon costed 1 resource less. Chase rares aren't what they put into starters, they're supposed to be somewhat poop so you have something to aspire toward.

http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/hextcg.gamepedia.com/thumb/c/c5/Onslaught.png/250px-Onslaught.png?version=96f94a15433263f61f8716685c01 2ecc

Rapkannibale
07-13-2015, 02:05 AM
Thanks for sharing and welcome to Hex!

As others have said you make very valid points.

This is one of the reasons game developers don't like to release an unfinished product and prefer to delay of its not ready to meet expectations. Personally I am happy they decided to release the PvP experience and not delay the game like many other Kickstarter games (and games in general) do. The downside however is that new players expect a finished game and it is not.

I have no doubt in my mind that we will get to the version of Hex presented in the Kickstarter but it will take some time.

Nevertheless it is good to hear what the new players experience is like and be assured that the developers are aware and read the forums. :)

We already have a great community of players which is so important. Imagine if you had done this kind of post about Hearthstone on their forums, I am sure the responses would have been very different in tone. :)

Ertzi
07-13-2015, 03:26 AM
I would just give new players all the starter decks, with the cards being non-tradeable. This is coming from a player who bought all of them with plat in the very beginning (yeah, lol, I didn't know better). What would be the harm in that approach? No one could profit by making multiple accounts, and new players get a lot more toys to play with, which in turn opens more options to have fun with HEX, which in turn hooks them faster. Feels like the most simplest solution. Can the starter decks really make that much money for HexEnt that they would want to keep them as a purchaseable option?

bootlace
07-13-2015, 04:43 AM
Make all starter decks available for a week in account bound mode and ask the player to commit to one by the end of the seven days. At that point the deck you chose becomes tradable and other decks disappear.

Svenn
07-13-2015, 06:57 AM
Make all starter decks available for a week in account bound mode and ask the player to commit to one by the end of the seven days. At that point the deck you chose becomes tradable and other decks disappear.

I like this idea (other than the tradeable part, Starter decks aren't tradeable because people can just make unlimited accounts and trade them over).

Thoom
07-13-2015, 07:04 AM
I don't particularly like the idea of a ticking clock over a new player's head. Seems stressful.

Abidar
07-13-2015, 07:17 AM
Why can we buy starter decks for gold? Would 10k g be too little to ask? Even earning 3k from the starter missions 7k gold out of the arena is a decent grind for a starter deck with no extra cards.

Gwaer
07-13-2015, 07:23 AM
You can already by starter decks for gold. People are buying gold for Plat for around 50 to 1. Gold is insanely valuable. But it'd take more like 500,000 gold rather than 10k for a starter deck from the shop.

Thoom
07-13-2015, 07:29 AM
Buying singles off the AH, a starter deck costs 30-40k gold. Hopefully bulk listing will drive that down to a more reasonable level.

Khazrakh
07-13-2015, 07:58 AM
Buying singles off the AH, a starter deck costs 30-40k gold. Hopefully bulk listing will drive that down to a more reasonable level.

So you can buy a complete starter deck from completing 4-6 arena runs without selling a single drop?
That's already more than reasonable in my book.
I think all the points made by the OP are more or less on the spot, but gold not being valuable enough definitely is not a problem right now - actually we have too many paying and not enough F2P players making gold super valuable right now. What we need to do is better guide players during their first hours, show them around, teach them what to look for and how to handle the AH.

Koz
07-13-2015, 07:59 AM
Aside from the starter deck access issue, which is valid, there's also the overarching issue of how stingy Hex is with new players. I say this from the perspective of a player who started two months ago. Since then, I've spent about $400 on this game, a lot of which was spent via third part sites (because it's cheaper and I need all the help I can get to build my collection), but what about the new players who can't afford to spend that much? Here are some major barriers I see to Hex retaining new players who are just trying the game out:

1.) The auction house prices are pretty ludicrous. The gouging and greed that goes on there is absurd and it makes it seem like you'll never have enough gold to get enough cards to even have a semi-decent deck. This is very daunting to new players, especially if you lack funds to sink into new cards. Not much HexEnt can do about this part though.

2.) The Arena is really rough on new players. When you are just staring off you get your ass handed to you in the most frustrating ways, almost to the point that it is a deterrent to keep you wanting to play because you feel like "what's the point". There really needs to be an "easy" mode for the Arena to give new players a chance to compete and to give veteran players an outlet for trying out "fun" decks. This "easy" mode could be very simple, where you get less gold, reduced chances at legendary gear/cards, and no shot at Uruunaz appearing, and in exchange the Arena decks are toned down to be less ridiculous for those playing poor decks, such as doubling the amount of charges required for the AI to use it's abilities, and removing half of the more ridiculously overpowered cards in their decks. How hard would that be to implement? Sounds really, really easy to do and would really go a long way to keeping new players from getting frustrated...And this issue will only get worse as the AI learns to play its cards correctly and proceeds to curb stomp new players in even worse fashion.

3.) Hex should give a little more in the way of cards/packs. This game seems extremely stingy with it's rewards, giving next to nothing as far as actual cards go. Why not have a small chance to get a "free" pack out of your Arena loot? This game has SO MANY trash rares in it, does Hex really think they're going to devalue the economy by offering a smattering of free packs for Arena grinders to help build their collection? Other games seem to do this without crashing their economy, so I'm not buying that argument. It almost seems like Hex feels like they gave away so much stuff to their KS backers that they need to "make it up" by sticking it to the new players. That's honestly the way it feels when you're starting off. It also feels like Hex is so afraid they might miss out on making a buck, they won't give up anything to help you out to get started (or not enough, certainly). Giving access to all of the starters (or at least the original 4) would also go a long way to alleviating this issue.

I'm not trying to sound overly harsh, especially with the comments about Hex being stingy, I'm just trying to be honest about how it feels when you're starting out in this game. I've come to learn that the people at Hex really care about this game and the community, and that Cory and company are good people who are more generous than they appear. But how many new players take the time to learn this as I have? How many simply walk away to go play the games with easier access to obtaining a playable deck and never come back? They don't know what they're missing, but sadly most of them will never come back.

Hex needs to do something sooner rather than later on these issues. Hex is at a crucial stage in a competitive market, and they can't afford to sit on their hands saying "we're working on this", especially when so many of these fixes are EASY to implement and will have a significant impact on retaining new players.

Just 2 cents from a new player that's here to stay and here to spend money.

ghulzen
07-13-2015, 08:06 AM
1.) The auction house prices are pretty ludicrous. The gouging and greed that goes on there is absurd and it makes it seem like you'll never have enough gold to get enough cards to even have a semi-decent deck. This is very daunting to new players, especially if you lack funds to sink into new cards. Not much HexEnt can do about this part though.


I'm guessing you're probably talking about rares and legs, but I'm expecting the prices of commons and uncommons to drop like a rock if the bulk listing that was on the test server makes it over to live.

RamzaBehoulve
07-13-2015, 08:10 AM
Just let everyone have a random starter deck with untradable cards for free that changes regularly, then if people like it, they can buy it from the store, or buy the singles to make it, similar to the league of legends free champ rotation. Heck go beyond starters and just have highlighted decks that come and go.

People absolutely love choices. Giving a random deck would be against a good first impression. I think meeting in the middle and giving a random deck for free for one week then it rotates, kind of like MOBA heroes, could work. Then we give them the option to choose one definitively if they want.

Svenn
07-13-2015, 08:30 AM
1.) The auction house prices are pretty ludicrous. The gouging and greed that goes on there is absurd and it makes it seem like you'll never have enough gold to get enough cards to even have a semi-decent deck. This is very daunting to new players, especially if you lack funds to sink into new cards. Not much HexEnt can do about this part though.
What? Gold is super valuable. A single Arena run will get you quite a bit. With the current conversion rates you'd only need something like 2-3 arena runs to buy a pack with platinum (and that's assuming 200p from the store, not the AH prices, and only counting the gold earned and not the loot).


2.) The Arena is really rough on new players. When you are just staring off you get your ass handed to you in the most frustrating ways, almost to the point that it is a deterrent to keep you wanting to play because you feel like "what's the point". There really needs to be an "easy" mode for the Arena to give new players a chance to compete and to give veteran players an outlet for trying out "fun" decks. This "easy" mode could be very simple, where you get less gold, reduced chances at legendary gear/cards, and no shot at Uruunaz appearing, and in exchange the Arena decks are toned down to be less ridiculous for those playing poor decks, such as doubling the amount of charges required for the AI to use it's abilities, and removing half of the more ridiculously overpowered cards in their decks. How hard would that be to implement? Sounds really, really easy to do and would really go a long way to keeping new players from getting frustrated...And this issue will only get worse as the AI learns to play its cards correctly and proceeds to curb stomp new players in even worse fashion.
The Arena isn't meant as a brand new player experience though, at least not in terms of full clears. The full PvE is meant to ease players into the whole thing, but the Arena is a random PvE-esque experience made as a challenge for players of all levels (not even the full PvE experience because it's missing a lot like PvE champions). A new player is expected to be able to get through Tier 1, maybe 2, and slowly work their way up. But they are also expected to have other PvE to play to earn new cards/equipment as well.

HexEnt is developing the game with the overall game in mind, and they are trying to not modify things for the right now but to fit in the long term. When PvE comes (it's up next), if a new player can't ease their way in then that's a problem. Arena not being suited for new players is a short term issue that's not going to change.


3.) Hex should give a little more in the way of cards/packs. This game seems extremely stingy with it's rewards, giving next to nothing as far as actual cards go. Why not have a small chance to get a "free" pack out of your Arena loot? This game has SO MANY trash rares in it, does Hex really think they're going to devalue the economy by offering a smattering of free packs for Arena grinders to help build their collection? Other games seem to do this without crashing their economy, so I'm not buying that argument. It almost seems like Hex feels like they gave away so much stuff to their KS backers that they need to "make it up" by sticking it to the new players. That's honestly the way it feels when you're starting off. It also feels like Hex is so afraid they might miss out on making a buck, they won't give up anything to help you out to get started (or not enough, certainly). Giving access to all of the starters (or at least the original 4) would also go a long way to alleviating this issue.
You can already get a "free" pack out of your Arena loot. Take the gold and buy it from the AH. I feel like the new game is also fairly generous as well... you get a free starter deck, a bunch of supplementary cards from the starter trials, and if you piece together the others you can get free decks from all the trials.

Name me a game that is a TCG (NOT a CCG like Hearthstone or something) that just gives out free cards and has a decent economy.


I'm not trying to sound overly harsh, especially with the comments about Hex being stingy, I'm just trying to be honest about how it feels when you're starting out in this game. I've come to learn that the people at Hex really care about this game and the community, and that Cory and company are good people who are more generous than they appear. But how many new players take the time to learn this as I have? How many simply walk away to go play the games with easier access to obtaining a playable deck and never come back? They don't know what they're missing, but sadly most of them will never come back.
On this, we sort of agree. The new player experience isn't amazing right now, but like I said the game is been designed with the long term in mind. For any other game, that's fine because the players only get access once everything is finished and pieced together. They let us play Hex from the early Alpha stages, though, which is great for those of us invested and loving the game but new players simply don't get it. They don't know it's not the full experience and they get turned off by it. We need the full experience soon before too many new players try the game out and write it off.


Hex needs to do something sooner rather than later on these issues. Hex is at a crucial stage in a competitive market, and they can't afford to sit on their hands saying "we're working on this", especially when so many of these fixes are EASY to implement and will have a significant impact on retaining new players.
Again, a lot of these "fixes" are things that don't fit with the fully planned experience. They are short term things that would need to be reverted once the full experience is ready, which means delays in the full experience while they implement things for the short term that would be removed later and a lot of complaining when things change because people are used to the temporary situation (see: gold in PvP).

sonejidh
07-13-2015, 08:38 AM
Another idea is some duplicates of the pvp cards with the pve flag to be buyable by gold and/or drop in a dungeon to have some sense of progress by doing pve (same cards but not useable in pvp except the wild west format where pve cards are allowed, it might need a diffrent border to make it more clear it is a pve card instead of pvp. They allready did something like this with the AA commons alltough they can be used in pvp as well)

Koz
07-13-2015, 09:12 AM
Svenn, are you a KS backer? Because you sound like a KS backer (whom have completely different experiences and viewpoints from players who weren't). You are writing this from the perspective of someone who already has a good deck instead of a new player who has next to nothing at the start. Let me illustrate:


What? Gold is super valuable. A single Arena run will get you quite a bit. With the current conversion rates you'd only need something like 2-3 arena runs to buy a pack with platinum (and that's assuming 200p from the store, not the AH prices, and only counting the gold earned and not the loot).

You immediately show that you do not have the perspective of a new player. At all. You actually seem completely out of touch with what it's like for us. 2-3 runs to buy a pack? Sure...if you HAVE A DECK THAT CAN COMPLETE A RUN!!!!!! That's the whole point Svenn, new players DO NOT HAVE A DECK THAT CAN COMPLETE A RUN!!! When I started, I was getting bitch slapped by Storm Cloud and S.P.A.M. Bot!!! I thought Eternal Guardian was the most utterly ridiculous thing I'd ever seen! Obviously I know much better now, but initially I was making next to nothing with my "runs" because I couldn't make it out of the first tier! Buy a pack from the AH from my "runs"? HA!!!!!! I could barely afford to buy commons!!!!!! Cards like Burn were out of my price range!!! Buy a pack???? HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


If you're going to make comments geared towards a new player, you should at least understand what it's like, but you clearly don't.



The Arena isn't meant as a brand new player experience though, at least not in terms of full clears. The full PvE is meant to ease players into the whole thing, but the Arena is a random PvE-esque experience made as a challenge for players of all levels (not even the full PvE experience because it's missing a lot like PvE champions). A new player is expected to be able to get through Tier 1, maybe 2, and slowly work their way up. But they are also expected to have other PvE to play to earn new cards/equipment as well.

That would be great...if a new player actually knew that Arena "isn't meant for them". The average new player wants to try the game out for awhile before sinking money into it, but what is a new player supposed to do once they've finished the starter trials (which don't last long)? Apparently the Arena "isn't for them" so what do they do if they just want to keep trying the game out without spending money? Play in the Proving Grounds which rewards you with nothing? Just blindly start dropping money to play in drafts even though they aren't sure they want to invest yet?

The Arena is EXACTLY what a new player like myself expects to be able to do when they start. My thought was, "I'm going to get my ass kicked vs real players, so I'll just tool around against the computer for awhile to get my feet wet." And then I proceeded to get my ass kicked by the AI mercilessly. So much so that I was making next to nothing and couldn't afford jack squat in the AH. I almost walked away from the game due to that, but I saw a lot of cards that seemed really cool and the deckbuilding geek in my kept saying "give it another try". How many players just leave though? Too bad the Arena "wasn't for them", otherwise they might have kept playing...


HexEnt is developing the game with the overall game in mind, and they are trying to not modify things for the right now but to fit in the long term. When PvE comes (it's up next), if a new player can't ease their way in then that's a problem. Arena not being suited for new players is a short term issue that's not going to change.

And that's a bad move, as I've already outlined, since new players that want to play for awhile before spending money really don't have a place to do that outside of the Arena. Hex Ent would benefit from a few short term fixes to the long term problem of new player retention.



You can already get a "free" pack out of your Arena loot. Take the gold and buy it from the AH. I feel like the new game is also fairly generous as well... you get a free starter deck, a bunch of supplementary cards from the starter trials, and if you piece together the others you can get free decks from all the trials.

Again...you sound like someone sitting on a pile of KS loot who never actually had to do the things you are suggesting as a solution.


Name me a game that is a TCG (NOT a CCG like Hearthstone or something) that just gives out free cards and has a decent economy.

If you think handing out a few bonus cards/packs here and there is going to crash the economy, you are overstating the issue by a wide margin.



Again, a lot of these "fixes" are things that don't fit with the fully planned experience. They are short term things that would need to be reverted once the full experience is ready, which means delays in the full experience while they implement things for the short term that would be removed later and a lot of complaining when things change because people are used to the temporary situation (see: gold in PvP).

There would be no need to remove an "easy" mode from the Auction House. Ever. Why you would think that because of some unclear, half-glimpsed vision of the "full experience" is beyond me.

Sorry if I'm coming off as harsh, but your post really rubbed me the wrong way. I came on here and gave an honest perspective from the standpoint of a new player, and you basically said "you're doing it wrong, you should have just been a KS backer".

Xexist
07-13-2015, 09:37 AM
So you can buy a complete starter deck from completing 4-6 arena runs without selling a single drop?
That's already more than reasonable in my book.
I think all the points made by the OP are more or less on the spot, but gold not being valuable enough definitely is not a problem right now - actually we have too many paying and not enough F2P players making gold super valuable right now. What we need to do is better guide players during their first hours, show them around, teach them what to look for and how to handle the AH.

People arent really going to be able to do full perfect arena runs starting only with 1 starter deck though :p

TOOT
07-13-2015, 09:44 AM
As of tomorrow, commons and uncommons will cost new players about half of what they have cost in the past, so that's a good start to help new players acquire cards to help them in the arena.

Hopefully they do something with the amount of starting cards/decks in the future. Virtually any suggestion in this thread is way better than it currently is. 4-5 account binded decks, or a rotating 2-3 every week or so, either of which would go a long way in showcasing more of what the game is all about.

I'd go with the account binded decks instead of rotating personally. The rotating idea you have to bank on players remembering or caring to come back weeks later to show them what you can show them all at once in their first impression. If it somehow started tomorrow, I'd go with 2 original starter decks and 2 of the newer ones so they can see the different mechanics/archetypes each of these blocks have added or improved on.

ziggarius
07-13-2015, 09:46 AM
Koz, there's already been multiple people that have taken a brand new account, and progressed f2p proving it's not only possible to clear the arena with a slightly modifier deck but there has also been people that took starter deck + starter trial and completed the arena. They're not pretty runs, they're not super consistent, but they can complete the arena without "being a KS backer".

Yes, even the shin'hare starter deck has been used for these challenges and has been successful. New players won't know the decks, won't know when to keep and when to mulligan, and they're not going to know this on a champion by champion basis. So, yeah, the arena is harsh for a brand new player and since it still needs to be a challenge even for experienced players it can make the game feel like it's "pay 2 win" when it's really not.

Khazrakh
07-13-2015, 09:46 AM
Guys, please refrain from insulting each other. This discussion has been somewhat civil thus far, please keep it that way.

@Koz - I'm a kickstarter backer myself, collector tier even so I sure am far from having to invest to have a good deck right now, but I still tried to mirror the new player experience. I started from scratch, just with my orc starter and from their built my way up. It took me a cozy evening to turn the deck into an arena clearing one that only lost to some certain encounters that hose aggro decks (Xarlox, Warbot, Nelebrin). Sure I still didn't nearly finish every run from there on, but I was able to reliably farm the fist tiers and quickly improve the deck. Mind you, I didn't transfer any gold or plat from my Kickstarter account while doing so. What really helped me to succeed was knowing what to do, how to play, what cards to look for and so on - and that's exactly what new players lack.

In my opinion the problem isn't really the value you can get out of arena and it's not that you can't get enough stuff for free fast enough. The problem - as the OP somewhat stats as well - is that most new players won't know how to achieve all this. Right now we are terribly bad at telling the new players what to do. If they don't know anything about the game they have a 50:50 chance to randomly pick a starter deck that suffers to even beat tier 1 without the chance to change it later. We don't really explain how the different decks are meant to be played, we don't explain how you are meant to improve the deck once your starter trials are over and so on.

In my personal opinion we don't need any changes to the Arena, to the way gold is handed out or anything. What we really need to do is embrace the new players and help them get through their first hours of gameplay and show them the right way to go from there.

Also to put your original post regarding the greed when putting stuff on the AH for gold into some perspective: A lot of us are happily willing to give out free commons to anybody that bothers asking for it - in chat, in the proving grounds, on the boards, where ever. I don't even mind if some of the stuff I give away is sold on the AH for profit as long as it helps the new player and makes him stay around and enjoy the game. But once I list my stuff on the AH I do so to earn gold. I have 28 unspun legendary chests from Set 1 alone - that's 840.000 gold to roll them - if I never ever hit a re-roll once.

All in all I think we still can agree that we all do love Hex and we want it to succeed. I'm 100% confident that we'll get there but I also think we could do better right away by just improving the tutorial and the first steps new players take in our wonderful world :)

Xexist
07-13-2015, 09:52 AM
Koz, there's already been multiple people that have taken a brand new account, and progressed f2p proving it's not only possible to clear the arena with a slightly modifier deck but there has also been people that took starter deck + starter trial and completed the arena. They're not pretty runs, they're not super consistent, but they can complete the arena without "being a KS backer".

Yes, even the shin'hare starter deck has been used for these challenges and has been successful. New players won't know the decks, won't know when to keep and when to mulligan, and they're not going to know this on a champion by champion basis. So, yeah, the arena is harsh for a brand new player and since it still needs to be a challenge even for experienced players it can make the game feel like it's "pay 2 win" when it's really not.

Im sure he knows this by now, but his point (I believe) is that you cant expect a new player to know this, they will jump right in and because nothing has been explained to them, all they will do is have a potentially bad experience, and because of how gaming industry is these days most will just think OMG PAYWALL and leave. Anyways who sticks with it and learns how the game and economy works, will have a better experience.

ziggarius
07-13-2015, 09:55 AM
Perhaps Xexist, but he shouldn't slam someone just for being a backer like he did.

Svenn
07-13-2015, 09:55 AM
SYou immediately show that you do not have the perspective of a new player. At all. You actually seem completely out of touch with what it's like for us. 2-3 runs to buy a pack? Sure...if you HAVE A DECK THAT CAN COMPLETE A RUN!!!!!! That's the whole point Svenn, new players DO NOT HAVE A DECK THAT CAN COMPLETE A RUN!!! When I started, I was getting bitch slapped by Storm Cloud and S.P.A.M. Bot!!! I thought Eternal Guardian was the most utterly ridiculous thing I'd ever seen! Obviously I know much better now, but initially I was making next to nothing with my "runs" because I couldn't make it out of the first tier! Buy a pack from the AH from my "runs"? HA!!!!!! I could barely afford to buy commons!!!!!! Cards like Burn were out of my price range!!! Buy a pack???? HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!You don't need to even do a complete run though. Tier 1 is easy. It should be doable with a starter deck. When I get home today, I'm going to take a starter and run the Arena from the start and see just how hard it is, in fact.

Run tier 1 and you get gold and loot. You build that up over time. Is it going to be instant? No, but it shouldn't be.

Also, there are a ton of people (myself included) who have posted all over the place offering tons of free cards to new players. I just sent out about 50 commons/uncommons to someone yesterday. Getting an arena capable deck is super easy.



That would be great...if a new player actually knew that Arena "isn't meant for them". The average new player wants to try the game out for awhile before sinking money into it, but what is a new player supposed to do once they've finished the starter trials (which don't last long)? Apparently the Arena "isn't for them" so what do they do if they just want to keep trying the game out without spending money? Play in the Proving Grounds which rewards you with nothing? Just blindly start dropping money to play in drafts even though they aren't sure they want to invest yet?

The Arena is EXACTLY what a new player like myself expects to be able to do when they start. My thought was, "I'm going to get my ass kicked vs real players, so I'll just tool around against the computer for awhile to get my feet wet." And then I proceeded to get my ass kicked by the AI mercilessly. So much so that I was making next to nothing and couldn't afford jack squat in the AH. I almost walked away from the game due to that, but I saw a lot of cards that seemed really cool and the deckbuilding geek in my kept saying "give it another try". How many players just leave though? Too bad the Arena "wasn't for them", otherwise they might have kept playing...
The Arena is for everyone, it's just not direct at new players directly. I believe it was stated before Arena released that a new player was expected to be able to complete Tier 1. Tier 2+ offers more of a challenge for everyone else. That's why you can skip Tier 1 once you've perfected it. I'm not sure why people are having trouble with Tier 1, even with starter decks + trials cards.



And that's a bad move, as I've already outlined, since new players that want to play for awhile before spending money really don't have a place to do that outside of the Arena. Hex Ent would benefit from a few short term fixes to the long term problem of new player retention.
And I already told you why short term fixes that need to be changed to fit the long term plans later are a bad idea.


There would be no need to remove an "easy" mode from the Auction House. Ever. Why you would think that because of some unclear, half-glimpsed vision of the "full experience" is beyond me.
I'm not sure what you even mean by an "easy" mode in the Auction House, but the AH needs plenty of improvements.

LNQ
07-13-2015, 09:58 AM
Yes. The learning curve is way too steep. Once you are familiar with all cards in the game and the mechanics + the economy, sure you can do well even with a fresh account. Thats a long hill to climb.

Khazrakh, would be interesting to see how your experiment would go with the human or shinhare starter.

Khazrakh
07-13-2015, 10:04 AM
Khazrakh, would be interesting to see how your experiment would go with the human or shinhare starter.

Way worse obviously. The human deck is capable of clearing tier 1 once you did the starter trials for it but it will have a very hard time against a lot of the tier 2 - 4 encounters and can't be upgraded that easily because inspire isn't really a strong mechanic for arena (or well, at all right now ;) )
Shin'hare probably is off even worse since you need quite some improvements to make it strong enough to cope with the arena encounters and even then you'll still run a swarm deck that's not fast enough to kill early and lacks the answers in a prolonged game. As I said - right now you have a 50:50 chance to pick a starter deck that just isn't fit for arena. Improving that is part of the new player experience.
It would still be possible to build upon both decks but it would be considerably harder and would take a lot longer.

ziggarius
07-13-2015, 10:07 AM
Hacky took the shin'hare deck and made it successful. First change was switching to Bunoshi, then improving the blood side via Darkspire and mosquitoes.

Cainhu
07-13-2015, 10:08 AM
Name me a game that is a TCG (NOT a CCG like Hearthstone or something) that just gives out free cards and has a decent economy.


PoxNora. it's not a TCG, but an online collectible game with boosters, AH, PvE campaigns, and many other features planned or implemented for HEX. As we speak it has 26 or 27 sets already released, so we can speak about long time sustainability.

It has 8 free starters (with tradeable runes), random old rune + gold for PvE, daily quests and PvE campaigns for even more gold, etc.

Gold

Regardless.. the other question is : is gold valuable ? Well 1p is equal about 75-100g so a Tier 1 arena win or a match in the rpvong grounds give you about 1p, tier 2 a bit more. for a starting player that could mean 100-200 wins to get a single booster. Yep, "good" value.

Of course, if you have a good arena deck you can earn MUCH more gold, but i think many new players leave before reaching that point. This is the first major bump stopping new players who may like HEX in the long run. (hopefully the planned PvE content will solve this one)

And then, when you have a good deck, you may grind the Arena for a good amount of gold, but after a time it become repetitive, uninteresting, and sometimes very fustrating thanks to the RNG gods, and OP champion abilities, which try to give the abyssimal AI a fighting chance. I think this is the second point, where HEX lose a lot of players. (again, planned content)

I think currently swiss draft and sealed - non of them really cheap, but these are okay - where a new player may use his hardly earned boosters, but constructed is out of the question if you don't spend a lot of money.

I think HEX had a clear headstart against the competition, but many CCG/TCG being released, and many others under development - with well recognized IP's, like Elder Scrolls - they could quickly lose all their advantage. IF they could have keep the KS goals for the planned date, or even with a year delay they would have an almost unbeatable advantage now... but sadly, this didn't happen.

Khazrakh
07-13-2015, 10:16 AM
PoxNora. it's not a TCG, but an online collectible game with boosters, AH, PvE campaigns, and many other features planned or implemented for HEX. As we speak it has 26 or 27 sets already released, so we can speak about long time sustainability.

It has 8 free starters (with tradeable runes), random old rune + gold for PvE, daily quests and PvE campaigns for even more gold, etc.

And it has a peak of 40 active players in the last 30 days.
You can't really compare that game to Hex. Actually there is not a single game like Hex out there and neither is there a game rivaling Hex even announced. Yes I really wish we'd been further down the road already, but Hex is still very unique and will be even more unique once full PvE is in.
Sure, people will play those other CCGs like they are playing Hearthstone already, but those games are hardly the same genre after all.

ziggarius
07-13-2015, 10:18 AM
I think HEX had a clear headstart against the competition, but many CCG/TCG being released, and many others under development - with well recognized IP's, like Elder Scrolls - they could quickly lose all their advantage. IF they could have keep the KS goals for the planned date, or even with a year delay they would have an almost unbeatable advantage now... but sadly, this didn't happen.

Those other CCG/TCGs coming up aren't planning to do what Hex is, and don't have the card design background that the Hex team has. They're cash-grabs based on recognized IPs because they saw Hearthstone.

If Hex can get the campaign out before the end of the year as they want to, we'll have a healthy advantage still.

parogui
07-13-2015, 10:29 AM
These new players are totally spot on. Players who don't have years in TCG experience aren't going to tune their starter decks like some pros here do and complete an arena run within a day. This has always been an issue with games with more complex rules and interactions and as far as we know this problem will be solved by Dungeons. But right now my best advice would be to be patient and even return at the end of the year where a more complete experience will be available to those who want a more accessible start.

Also if bulk listing becomes available tomorrow I'd defintely start grinding gold. Most prices are insane right now because of the high time requirement to list things. But if I could sell my extras for 100 gold I'd do it in a heartbeat. As for rares and legendaries I don't see them getting any lower, but you really don't need them to clear arena.

Thoom
07-13-2015, 10:42 AM
Hacky took the shin'hare deck and made it successful. First change was switching to Bunoshi, then improving the blood side via Darkspire and mosquitoes.

Hacky is an established, talented player with years of TCG experience. Applying this standard to a new player is completely unreasonable.

ziggarius
07-13-2015, 10:43 AM
I definitely do agree that the game needs better tutorials to teach how the decks work, and hopefully we're getting that with tomorrow's patch. Bulk listing is definitely going to help out too.

There's a lot that can be done to streamline new players into Hex, just there's a lot of suggestions that fly in the face of what is really the problem and won't help Hex out.

ziggarius
07-13-2015, 10:44 AM
Hacky is an established, talented player with years of TCG experience. Applying this standard to a new player is completely unreasonable.

It is not unreasonable to say that the decks are functional. What we lack is not issues with the starters, but teaching players how to play the decks they get and what can be done to improve them.

Axle
07-13-2015, 10:46 AM
Let's not talk about tutorials until tomorrow. Since there will be a new one.

Koz
07-13-2015, 10:46 AM
Koz, there's already been multiple people that have taken a brand new account, and progressed f2p proving it's not only possible to clear the arena with a slightly modifier deck but there has also been people that took starter deck + starter trial and completed the arena. They're not pretty runs, they're not super consistent, but they can complete the arena without "being a KS backer".

Oh I'm sure it's possible, all I'm talking about is how this all comes across as a new player. I read the new player guide on this site and decided to start grinding the Arena for gold so I could cobble together all of the starters and get some more "free" stuff. But it was a grueling experience fraught with a whole lot of ass kicking's of a very frustrating nature. A lot of new players aren't going to stick it out.


Yes, even the shin'hare starter deck has been used for these challenges and has been successful. New players won't know the decks, won't know when to keep and when to mulligan, and they're not going to know this on a champion by champion basis. So, yeah, the arena is harsh for a brand new player and since it still needs to be a challenge even for experienced players it can make the game feel like it's "pay 2 win" when it's really not.

which is why I think the Arena needs an "easy" mode that tones down both the rewards and the difficulty so that it's more manageable for new players.

nicosharp
07-13-2015, 10:52 AM
It is not unreasonable to say that the decks are functional. What we lack is not issues with the starters, but teaching players how to play the decks they get and what can be done to improve them.
I think the problem is a bit more complex than that:

1) Technical Knowledge (Tutorials/Mechanics explanation/hand-holding)

2) Variety of things to do for free (arena/proving grounds/community tournaments. - what are the benefits/what are the downsides/where do they go to find them/info - This is where being limited to one starter deck is an issue)

3) Marketing Model (3parts) - How do they make currency for free?, How do they take that currency to build a collection/trade for plat?, What's in it for me (WIIFM) if I buy plat?

4) Value obtained for free - Is it fun?, Am I progressing?, Do I feel rewarded for my time? F2P experience. (Tied to #2 - but uniquely identifies to value)

Koz
07-13-2015, 10:55 AM
Im sure he knows this by now, but his point (I believe) is that you cant expect a new player to know this, they will jump right in and because nothing has been explained to them, all they will do is have a potentially bad experience, and because of how gaming industry is these days most will just think OMG PAYWALL and leave. Anyways who sticks with it and learns how the game and economy works, will have a better experience.

This. As I stated in a previous post, I've learned a lot since I started, and if I could have a "do over" and be a new player again with my current knowledge, the game wouldn't have been nearly as frustrating as it was that first couple of weeks. But as it stands right now, for someone who knows nothing about the game and just wants to give a whirl to see what they think, it doesn't give the best first impression. The only thing that kept me going was that I was intrigued by the innovations they had come up with as far as the digital aspect of the game goes, and the fact that there were so many deckbuilding possibilities (I'm a deckbuilding geek at heart).

I just think there's a lot of new players who would have ended up liking the game long term if they would have stuck it out but were turned off by the direct punch to the face the game delivers as soon as you step out of the starter trials.

ziggarius
07-13-2015, 11:02 AM
I think the problem is a bit more complex than that:

1) Technical Knowledge (Tutorials/Mechanics explanation/hand-holding)

2) Variety of things to do for free (arena/proving grounds/community tournaments. - what are the benefits/what are the downsides/where do they go to find them/info - This is where being limited to one starter deck is an issue)

3) Marketing Model (3parts) - How do they make currency for free?, How do they take that currency to build a collection/trade for plat?, What's in it for me (WIIFM) if I buy plat?

4) Value obtained for free - Is it fun?, Am I progressing?, Do I feel rewarded for my time? F2P experience. (Tied to #2 - but uniquely identifies to value)

I agree with all of these points you posted Nico.

ziggarius
07-13-2015, 11:04 AM
which is why I think the Arena needs an "easy" mode that tones down both the rewards and the difficulty so that it's more manageable for new players.

Tier 1 is the closest thing we've got to an easy mode. Maybe the rewards are too low for tier 1, maybe increasing them would be too much. Hard to say, I always skip tier 1 because the only reason I have to play Arena is Uruunaz, though I'm pretty certain they've flagged my account to make Uruunaz not exist :p

Koz
07-13-2015, 11:18 AM
You don't need to even do a complete run though. Tier 1 is easy. It should be doable with a starter deck. When I get home today, I'm going to take a starter and run the Arena from the start and see just how hard it is, in fact.

Yeah, I could beat it with a starter too...NOW. The problem is that when you're new you are still learning what the cards do and how the game plays. Knowing what I know now, yeah, I could beat tier 1 with a starter consistently, I have no doubt. That doesn't change what it's like for a new player! As a new player you're still trying to figure out the interface and shortcuts, let alone strategy and when to mulligan.


Run tier 1 and you get gold and loot. You build that up over time. Is it going to be instant? No, but it shouldn't be.

I wasn't looking for "instant", I was looking for "a non-frustrating experience where I feel like I'm actually getting somewhere instead of spinning my wheels". I didn't feel like I was getting anywhere until I started buying Plat to spend on packs. That can be an issue for a lot of new players who aren't sure they want to invest yet.


Also, there are a ton of people (myself included) who have posted all over the place offering tons of free cards to new players. I just sent out about 50 commons/uncommons to someone yesterday. Getting an arena capable deck is super easy.

It's "super easy" if you know where to look. I poked around on these forums trying to get familiar with the game but didn't see any "free card" threads, so it wasn't "super easy" for me.



The Arena is for everyone, it's just not direct at new players directly. I believe it was stated before Arena released that a new player was expected to be able to complete Tier 1. Tier 2+ offers more of a challenge for everyone else. That's why you can skip Tier 1 once you've perfected it. I'm not sure why people are having trouble with Tier 1, even with starter decks + trials cards.

Sure, with my starter cards I was able to break into that 2nd tier a few times within my first week...but it wasn't all that fun to be honest because the AI's decks are so utterly OP compared to a starter. And once you break into that 2nd tier with your gimpy, limp-legged, misfiring, hodge-podge of a deck and get a taste of champions like the Paladin or War Bot...well...let's just say that it can be quite a turn off. But...I'm still here, because the game really is awesome. I just fear a lot of new players won't stick with it long enough to find that out.



I'm not sure what you even mean by an "easy" mode in the Auction House, but the AH needs plenty of improvements.

I meant Arena, obviously.

Koz
07-13-2015, 11:29 AM
Tier 1 is the closest thing we've got to an easy mode. Maybe the rewards are too low for tier 1, maybe increasing them would be too much. Hard to say, I always skip tier 1 because the only reason I have to play Arena is Uruunaz, though I'm pretty certain they've flagged my account to make Uruunaz not exist :p

I just personally think it would be really good for the game to have a true "easy/beginner" mode for the Arena where you get less gold, lower chances at legendary cards/gear, and no shot at Uruunaz in exchange for a lower difficulty (higher charge costs on the AI's abilities, fewer copies of the OP cards). I know something like this would have been much better for me, and I doubt I would have even had to question whether or not I was going to "stick it out" or not.

But I'd be open to anything that made the new player experience less frustrating. That's really the only way you're going to build this community. The game has to not chase away new players before they've played long enough to get hooked. And they should do this sooner, rather than later, because there's too much competition out there to take years to get it done.

Xexist
07-13-2015, 11:31 AM
Maybe instead of giving away equipment like an equipment pinata that burst open, tier one could focus a lot more on winning PVE cards that can improve starter decks, and the remaining tiers can be used to get equipment.

It makes sense to me to give in tier one the means to get past tier one and move on to the rest of the arena.

nicosharp
07-13-2015, 11:32 AM
Maybe instead of giving away equipment like an equipment pinata that burst open, tier one could focus a lot more on winning PVE cards that can improve starter decks, and the remaining tiers can be used to get equipment.

It makes sense to me to give in tier one the means to get past tier one and move on to the rest of the arena.
My stash looks like I run an Equipment Pinata Wholesale Warehouse.

Xexist
07-13-2015, 11:35 AM
My stash looks like I run an Equipment Pinata Wholesale Warehouse.

I dont play as often as most people here and my stash is pretty packed too lol

Koz
07-13-2015, 11:40 AM
Maybe instead of giving away equipment like an equipment pinata that burst open, tier one could focus a lot more on winning PVE cards that can improve starter decks, and the remaining tiers can be used to get equipment.

It makes sense to me to give in tier one the means to get past tier one and move on to the rest of the arena.

Not a bad idea. Or maybe Tier one chest drops could include some common PvP cards. Not every time, but just a chance to drop some commons from Eternal Guardian that will help newbies customize a deck. That way it's not something that's really abusable, because regular players aren't going to grind Tier 1 for common cards, but it would be a decent boon for new players just trying to build their collection but can't afford the AH prices.

Altima
07-13-2015, 11:41 AM
I think price of many cards go up by 50-100% today. I think it is because of +50% gold week.

In my opinion starter deck is fine for arena. Maybe it depend on deck but I can use Shin'hare deck with barely any modification to beat the arena twice. It is not an easy run but it is not very difficult.

Koz
07-13-2015, 11:45 AM
I think price of many cards go up by 50-100% today. I think it is because of +50% gold week.

In my opinion starter deck is fine for arena. Maybe it depend on deck but I can use Shin'hare deck with barely any modification to beat the arena twice. It is not an easy run but it is not very difficult.

You beat the entire Arena....with the Shin'hare starter. Twice. I would like to see how you did that, because that's really impressive if it's true...

ziggarius
07-13-2015, 11:55 AM
You beat the entire Arena....with the Shin'hare starter. Twice. I would like to see how you did that, because that's really impressive if it's true...

I've done it each of the starters, but was beaten to the punch of recording it and posting it. There's vids out there some place of it being done. It's not easy, but the starters can do it. Which was the point I was trying to get at before, and Nicosharp's earlier post is the real issue new players will be having as opposed to what's in the starters.

Gwaer
07-13-2015, 12:08 PM
I've also beaten the arena with every starter deck. Just to throw my hat in the ring. But I don't think it's something a new player is expected to do. lots of making use of the quirks of the current ai.

Lukezors
07-13-2015, 12:12 PM
A lot interesting points in this thread! I strongly agree that all starters should be made available to all new players, either earned through some means or just instantly available and non tradeable.

Another interesting point in the op is that free players don't get the excitement of opening packs, etc. I think it would really cool if future PVE content rewarded PVE boosters instead of just random loot(Arena could be converted to this too?). Depending on the size of future pve sets these may or may not have the same number of items inside as current packs(arena packs would have to be smaller). As shown by the convocation pack system these could contain non cards items as well, though it would be fun if they also contained a PVE chest too.

Koz
07-13-2015, 12:13 PM
I've also beaten the arena with every starter deck. Just to throw my hat in the ring. But I don't think it's something a new player is expected to do. lots of making use of the quirks of the current ai.

That I can believe. Knowing how the AI plays is a huge advantage when running the Arena. A new player doing it though? That would require an unbelievable amount of luck.

That being said, if the Arena could consistently be beaten (in it's entirety) with just a starter, then it would be a pretty poor experience and not functioning as intended. But as a "skin of your teeth with a fair amount of luck" type of thing by a knowledgeable player? Sure, I can see that.

ziggarius
07-13-2015, 12:16 PM
I've also beaten the arena with every starter deck. Just to throw my hat in the ring. But I don't think it's something a new player is expected to do. lots of making use of the quirks of the current ai.

I agree that a new player isn't expected to do it, that it can be done is testament the starter decks don't get enough credit for what they are. Being able to bridge that gap between a new player and experienced player, is what the game needs.


I know I've not yet touched on it in this thread, but the ideas of giving some way to unlock starters feels like a good idea to me in promoting new players to stick around and experiment with stuff to want to grow their collection. I've always felt the 1k plat price on starters was the wrong way to go about it.

Gwaer
07-13-2015, 12:52 PM
If we go down the road of unlockables like that I feel like that won't have a choice but to make them very time consuming to unlock, or you can just buy them from the store, just like a 'normal' f2p game, which they're trying to avoid. And honestly, they're pretty much there already, just need more content to grind so you don't have to only exhaust the arena. It's so draining running the same thing over and over again, even if there are changes, even if there were 40 additional bosses in the arena, since it's the same place, your brain just makes it a lot more tedious than it really is I think.

Tinfoil
07-13-2015, 02:13 PM
I also like the idea of free starter decks for all new players. Another idea could be to get be offered the choice between a f2p package and a P2P package where you would get some relevant stuff that would help grow your collection tailored to your preferred mode of playing.

IronPheasant
07-13-2015, 05:09 PM
It's so draining running the same thing over and over again, even if there are changes, even if there were 40 additional bosses in the arena, since it's the same place, your brain just makes it a lot more tedious than it really is I think.

If you've ever had a uh, large playlist of music and tried playing it on a loop, the amount of content it takes to not go crazy is about 400 to 1000 different things.

Snorlax would be so much less annoying if we didn't see him nearly every run. It's a 3 in 5 chance of seeing him during a run, right?

The arena is only a week or two's worth of content. It's kind of terrifying thinking about how much money it'd take to increase the amount of content in it an order of magnitude.

Though obviously they've taken that into account. Most cards seem like they're done on two separate layers, and they probably have raw images of each creature from each art asset.

Cainhu
07-14-2015, 01:18 AM
And it has a peak of 40 active players in the last 30 days.
You can't really compare that game to Hex. Actually there is not a single game like Hex out there and neither is there a game rivaling Hex even announced. Yes I really wish we'd been further down the road already, but Hex is still very unique and will be even more unique once full PvE is in.
Sure, people will play those other CCGs like they are playing Hearthstone already, but those games are hardly the same genre after all.


And in HEX, starting a single 8 player swiss-draft is 2-4 hours, if it even starts. As a relatively new game, successfully KS-ed by almost 18.000 people. PoxNora has the excuse, that is an old game with outdated graphics, and practically 0 marketing and still survives with that supposedly "it will crash the economy" free starters.

I guess you screw yourself if you think HEX on it's current form cannot be rivaled. Now it's a somewhat improved digital MTG - a good one of that -, with a smaller but fexible cardpool. However I agree, that the full PvE experience could change this, if it is properly implemented in time. If the Arena is any indication, I remain only cautioulsy optimistic.

At it current form, I would call Infinity Wars a more innovative online CG, and honesty we don't know that how the under development card games will fit in the picture. If they go the Heartstone way then they won't be a rival to HEX, but we simpy don't know. I honestly doubt they would ignore HEX and it's initial almost 18k people strong support as an indication what players want.


Those other CCG/TCGs coming up aren't planning to do what Hex is, and don't have the card design background that the Hex team has. They're cash-grabs based on recognized IPs because they saw Hearthstone.

If Hex can get the campaign out before the end of the year as they want to, we'll have a healthy advantage still.

As a tabletop boardgame/cardgame player, Hex teams prior experience was one of te deciding factors why I didn't joined the KS. Their tabletop card games are mostly mediocre IMHO, but supported with popular IPs. If I think about Cryptozoic's DC Comics deck-builder, I start to cry. So, when I recognized that Hex turned out pretty good, that was a real positive suprise for me.

It doesn't matter if those are designed to be cash grabs or not, if they take potential players and cash away from HEX.

Don't misunderstand me, I like HEX for what it is, and even more for what it can be in time. But ignoring both potential customers and potential rivals believing in supperiority would be a sure way to failure in almost any business.

starwing
07-15-2015, 06:07 AM
100% in favor of this idea. One of the biggest issues I have selling the new/F2P experience to other people is that you have to make a decision that makes an enormous impact on your ability to win PVE matches early on before you know anything about the game. Especially since the weakest starter decks (human/shinhare) are quite appealing if you don't know the mechanics very well, this can be punishing for a new player.

Letting new players easily earn the starter decks they didn't pick to start with would seriously boost accessibility, at very little cost.

I'm a brand new player here also (with minimal TCG experience) and I picked human of course :P I have no complaints so far though--it's been very fun and I will earn new stuff for my deck and purchase some packs when I've learned the game a little more!

ossuary
07-15-2015, 06:22 AM
It's a better time than ever to be a new player, IMO. Gold is at an all-time high value, it's going to be even more desirable when people start to see what it can get them. It will be very easy for new players to convert some free time into a fistful of plat... and the new starter decks may even be worth their time to try out, too. :)

Vorpal
07-15-2015, 07:20 AM
As of tomorrow, commons and uncommons will cost new players about half of what they have cost in the past



I think price of many cards go up by 50-100% today. I think it is because of +50% gold week.



I'm not sure what to think of this, but at least we have all our bases covered :D

Xenavire
07-15-2015, 07:21 AM
I'm not sure what to think of this, but at least we have all our bases covered :D

They were both wrong! /cry
#DelayedPatchIrony

KOFVSCAPCOM
07-19-2015, 04:26 AM
I do agree a lot of what is missing right now is the support for the newer players like a better tutorial/ more PVE content. I'd imagine it would be quite hard for someone completely new to tcgs to navigate Hex. And I have told my friends who have no tcg experience to hold off until the campaign and a fuller PVE experience gets released, because I feel in it's current state with the amount of time a completely free to play player seems to be expected to put in it would just turn them off. To be fair to the creators, it is a crowdfunded game and they had and still have milestones people expect them to fulfill. Also, most of it is mainly lack of content and the game is relatively young, I expect it'll be fine in time.

wolzarg
07-19-2015, 06:01 AM
A free to play player will always be expected to put in a ton of time to play even semi competitively. But with more content and variations of PVE the time putt in will feel less like a grind and more like time well spent.