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View Full Version : Me interviewing myself about the new VIP Program Rox or Sux?



Hexgo
07-15-2015, 12:23 PM
Hello Hexzors

I guess it might be abit late to react to the revival of VIP. I still wanted to do it and made Q&A out of my thoughts so I could write them down somewhat clear. So it’s basically me asking me myself stuff!

Is the new VIP system bad?
No, I don’t think the new VIP deal is inherently bad.

Of course it’s not as good a deal as the initial one (by a large margin), but that’s not the point of this post. As I read the new VIP description I thought “hold on a minute, there must be something wrong” and now I try to show you why I think there is something amiss.

Wait, but you are not going to compare the old and the new one now, are you? It was getting abused!
Ok. Let’s start by the initial thought behind the VIP program, or how Cory described it and what it should stand for: exploring the game at a slower pace by buying 1 pack a week for a discount. The VIP tournament was merely added as a last minute plus (Personally I’m so grateful for that decision).
https://www.hextcg.com/vip-program-update/
http://fiveshards.com/cory-jones-on-cirouss-birthday-stream/

As I understand this statement the focus was mainly on casuals/new players (in which case the name “VIP” wouldn’t make much sense though…) but it was super great value for everyone anyway! It was basically a no-brainer. For everyone with the smallest budged.

The fact that Hex Ent. abandoned it because of its abuse and not because it was “to good” tells me that the initial thought might not have vanished.

So what happened now?
In my opinion the new VIP shifted heavily away from the big masses (as I understood: the initial targeted demographic) and more towards the “whales” of HEX. (Ok now the name “VIP” makes sense! I get it, I get it!).

What are you talking about? You still get packs for a discount in the end!
Yes, but to get the packs with a discount you pay a price. I guess that most people reading this forum are familiar with the term “opportunity cost”. If not there is a quick read on it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

I made some graphs so my thoughts are easier to follow.
First graph shows you the value of an annual subscription for the VIP program compared with an initial buy of packs for the same amount of money.

http://i58.tinypic.com/oum921.jpg

This shows us the “hidden” cost of the VIP program in relation to just buying packs (from Hex) for the same amount of money.

The conclusion: the price for 12 VIP entry-tickets (+ the sleeves) is A-B (1152-8=1144/ Week*Packs) over the course of a year.

But this is inaccurate! The “free packs” you get will be yours into infinity. And the VIP tickets…!
I get to the VIP tickets later on.
But, sure you are right. So let’s look on some more graphs:

http://i58.tinypic.com/rsvki1.jpg

After you can’t play limited anymore with the first batch of packs “C” your cost is still (1152-8) = 1144

After you can’t play Standard anymore with the first batch of packs “C” your cost is still (1152-8-208) = 936

So you still not getting the better end of it even after the first batch of packs rotates out of standard play.

So, now you are obviously saying it’s a bad deal!
No. Like I said it’s not bad for all. Let’s look at some other graphs:

http://i61.tinypic.com/2naiofq.jpg

A=B or (1152-8-1144) = 0
After 6.5 years (5.5 years after the VIP-year ending) your total revenue breaks even with your total cost.
From this day you will not only benefit from all those VIP tournament-entry-tickets but also from the packs themselves!

So in the end it’s all good, I knew it!
Yes and no. I hinted in the beginning: it’s good for “whales”, it’s not so good for newcomers/casuals/people with limited budgets.

Oh common stop it now, you just said it will eventually become good! And the VIP tickets…!
Ok let’s take a closer look on the problem of the newcomers/casuals.
Let’s say your budget for a year of Hex-play is exactly 96$ + some $ for tournament entry only.

Scenario 1: buying 48 packs (of Hex’ store):
You are able to get right into the game from day 1. You can participate in Drafts, play Sealed or even open all your packs and play Constructed and/or have a better PVE experience (because you can build better/a lot more decks and can actually use some of the equipment that drops). Or a mix of all of the above of course!

Scenario 2: buying into VIP (same budged, mind you, 96$ for VIP, rest for tournament entry)
“Ok. You wait. Hum… waiiiit. PVE some. Hum… 2 weeks passed, yeai lets go for a draft! Omg this was fun! Let’s…! wait….VIP tournament! Oh it’sealed…hm.. I don’t have the packs, damn… hum…VIP tournament! O gosh, constructed cool! Oh I don’t have the cards to build a viable deck….”

This is very blatantly put but I think you get the picture.

The “whales” do not have that problem, because they buy into the VIP program (which eventually will work out and gives them very nice perks) and still will spend enough money to satisfy their need to play right away. Obviously they benefit the most of the VIP tournaments too. Also I think the commendable thought of supporting the company is more likely to fit them; since it’s not really a tradeoff for them (I just put it here because I saw it was brought up somewhere). I guess Colin would buy the VIP even if there were…hum.. only the sleeves? But I guess he is one of a kind :)

This is all good, but like I said, this would be a shift of the initial purpose.

But you only got 1 pack in the old system too!
Ok, you brought up the old system, it wasn’t me! It did cost 50% of the new system! Here a graph to show you that the old system was totally different!

http://i57.tinypic.com/332t40j.jpg

So there were benefits everywhere: the cost for packs alone broke even before the middle of the VIP year. Yet you had 48$ (taken from the example above with a 96$ budged) to buy your initial batch of packs so you can play from day 1 and you got VIP tickets (in which case you could actually use) above all. Did you notice that “B” is so big I don’t even need an arrow to point at it!

Ok. You are saying it’s not so nice for casuals/new players and the like, so what now?
From my perspective it would be a lot cooler if there was a “VIP-Set-Pack”. This with the thought of 2 Sets a year. Subject to change of course.

What this would look like:

You pay 48$ (only 1 per account) and you get:
• 24 packs of the youngest set
• 6 VIP entry-tickets
• 1 pairs of sleeves matching the youngest set

Here a graph that compares the VIP-Pack to the VIP-Program (6-months subscription):

http://i59.tinypic.com/1s1j5w.jpg

Looks familiar, right? It’s very similar to the first graph. But now both systems have VIP-tickets, both systems have sleeves (in the 6 month subscription you wouldn’t even get sleeves). The VIP-Set-Pack nullifies “A” and also “B” for that matter. It is still good for “whales”, VIP tickets, support of the company, Sleeves! (even more sleeves!). “Whales” buy a minimum of 24 packs anyway.

And it got all the good stuff for the casuals and newcomers too! No “hidden” costs. Packs you can play with and VIP tournaments you can participate!

Also it’s less exploitable than the new VIP Program, since you don’t get free packs.

And the guys that are not willing to pay that much upfront? I mean there are also subscriptions for 3 months and 1 month…

Glad you brought it up!
I suggest to make a junior VIP-Pack too (max. 2 times/account)!

At the cost of 24$, containing:
• 12 packs
• 3 VIP tickets
• Sorry, no sleeves

You could buy them 2 times per set (so you get the full VIP Pack) and if you pay 2$ on top, you get the sleeves too! (This to cover Hex Ents loss in interest rate of 3 month/24$ + expenses).

“Loss in interest rate” now you are getting ridiculous
It’s better for Hex Ent. If they get the money up front. They got to pay wages, artists, pizza ect. They rather get their money sooner than later, it’s exactly the same concept why you rather get your packs sooner than later. If you are hungry, a loaf of bread today is worth more than a loaf of bread next month. Interestingly enough the most appealing subscription for the player - if you don’t want the sleeves - is the monthly one, this is also the worst for Hex Ent.

The fact that there is no discount on the longer subscription shows that Hex Ent. doesn’t have the intention to rip you off but values you as a customer without full commitment and also takes its economy serious! (Both of it I find really cool!)

Ok mate, but what you are suggesting is a totally different product of what the “feel” of the VIP program is (I totally love the mails in which they assure me that I’m the best VIP member ever!!!)…
This crossed my mind too. It might or might not be significant. It doesn’t have that “subscription” kind-of-style. I’m not sure how to fix this (if it is even a problem), but I’m totally in for a weekly email containing a nice poem out of TY hands to praise the goodness of my heart for being the best VIP member ever!

To sum it up: the VIP-Pack doesn’t have that feel of discovering the game slowly at a lower cost, but the new official VIP Program doesn’t have it neither. The VIP-Pack however would be friendly to the initial targeted demographic. The Focus today is not the discount of the packs anymore but the VIP-tournament-entry-tickets.

Thank you for reading.

Regards
Hexgo

Hexgo
07-15-2015, 12:24 PM
Thank you all for your interest, the inputs and to some for them nice responses

Special thanks to DocX: definitely wouldn’t be able to give my backhand with that much eloquence. Really appreciated.

Clarification

The expression „whale“
The expression „whale“ might be confusing/unfortunate. It wasn’t my intent to judge particular groups of players or label some people with a name they don’t identify themselves with.

I just couldn’t come up with some something better.
Maybe Hex Enthusiast? Or Mr. Suitcase? I didn’t want to go into defining some segments and derail the thread into if they were right or wrong.

The name VIP
Yes as I stated in the post, I think the name VIP seems now more accurate than before (where the VIP-Program basically was super nice for everyone).

On the other hand with Cory being such a passionate “Backer-Hugger” I would totally believe a story where the HEX team sat in the conference room discussing the whole “Premium-Subscription” case – developed for a VIP-Elite only – banging his fist on the table pointing fingers and shouting: “No, no, no! I love everyone and everyone playing HEX is a VIP in my eyes!”

Mandalore
07-15-2015, 12:35 PM
You need to interview yourself more often.

Great read!

Thank you!

Khazrakh
07-15-2015, 12:36 PM
Great write-up!
I'll get the VIP anyway but I'm probably more in the whale camp anyway - the VIP-Pack sounds like a neat idea.

Selanius
07-15-2015, 12:43 PM
Interesting article. I greatly enjoy sound economic analysis. Its weird thinking of myself as a whale as I don't usually spend that much money on games.

nicosharp
07-15-2015, 12:45 PM
I like the idea of packs and tickets both up-front. I like the idea of 2 sleeves per year.
You are right - VIP caters to Whales, not casuals in it's current iteration.

Hell, anything that you need to pay into, for an 'opportunity to pay into' a tournament for whale bait AA's, is not going to attract a huge casual audience... But I think this is appropriately titled "VIP" for a reason. It's not every average Joe that pays for the bottle service in the club.

Fyren
07-15-2015, 01:08 PM
You are right - VIP caters to Whales, not casuals in it's current iteration.

I think that's the thing that was irritating the back of my brain and that I badly fumbled articulating in the VIP rerelease thread - and certainly had no hope of articulating as thoroughly as it was above. The adoption rate outside the forums/Twitch types seemed light.

But that's not necessarily a bad thing if that's the aim of the program, which, yes, "VIP" would imply.

magic_gazz
07-15-2015, 01:21 PM
Hang on, $8 a month makes you a whale?

I don't think so.

You don't HAVE to sign up for the 1 year in advance.

Also I don't really understand what you are talking about. The break even point has nothing to do with the number of boosters you have available to you at one time it is to do with the cost.

$2 per pack (from the store) x 4 weeks = $8 (cost of VIP)

The tournament tickets and sleeves are a bonus.

ziggarius
07-15-2015, 01:28 PM
That's what I was thinking too Gazz, but they're going off of 1 year = 52 weeks. Instead of the more likely recurring charge based on 1 month = 4 weeks, so 1 year worth of "VIP Service" would be 48 weeks (12 * 4 = 48).

I haven't seen an FAQ yet that explains which is the correct calculation.

Fyren
07-15-2015, 01:32 PM
A major point of the above is that if all you had money for was the VIP program vs. buying packs right off, buying the boosters one at a time rather than all at once comes with the inherent problem that there's not much you can do with a single booster. You'd have to save up for a few weeks to get enough to do a draft, and then if you don't go infinite, you'd have to wait a few weeks to do another; it'd be a very stuttery sort of start. New players not otherwise spending aren't likely to go infinite nor have the resources for constructed VIP nor sealed VIP tournaments. New players will get a lot more immediate gratification out of the scenario in which you buy 48 packs instead of VIP, then get a ton of drafts/sealed games in, and have your fun.

If you're a serious customer, you've almost certainly got other packs to work with, and the one a week helps you more. $8 a month doesn't make you a whale - it's just that whales, and not newbies, will get maximum value out of that $8 a month.

Incindium
07-15-2015, 01:34 PM
One year = 52 packs

https://twitter.com/HexTCG/status/621033966833799168

ziggarius
07-15-2015, 01:34 PM
A major point of the above is that if all you had money for was the VIP program vs. buying packs right off, buying the boosters one at a time rather than all at once comes with the inherent problem that there's not much you can do with a single booster. You'd have to save up for a few weeks to get enough to do a draft, and then if you don't go infinite, you'd have to wait a few weeks to do another; it'd be a very stuttery sort of start. New players not otherwise spending aren't likely to go infinite nor have the resources for constructed VIP nor sealed VIP tournaments. New players will get a lot more immediate gratification out of the scenario in which you buy 48 packs instead of VIP, then get a ton of drafts/sealed games in, and have your fun.

If you're a serious customer, you've almost certainly got other packs to work with, and the one a week helps you more. $8 a month doesn't make you a whale - it's just that whales, and not newbies, will get maximum value out of that $8 a month.

Yup, this is the key thing. It's not about the cost it's that you're buying packs directly *and* VIP on top. Not an either or thing. And most of the newer players or people on a budget are likely better off buying off the AH for their packs.

LNQ
07-15-2015, 01:54 PM
The VIP gives most value if you commit to spending more on the side, not only for the VIP subscription. In my opinion this is not a bad thing. New players who only want to dabble a little bit into Hex are better off buying singles, but anyone planning to play for a whole year anyway has the option to go big and go VIP. Those who dont arent screwed over by missing out on a massively good deal, so it doesnt cause a rift between the haves and have nots.

EDIT: Didnt read the proposal well enough. The up front with no discount on packs sounds pretty good, actually!

To me, either system feels fine.

Cory_Jones
07-15-2015, 02:04 PM
Holy Shit, my brain just melted...
also, I LOVE this community :)

EntropyBall
07-15-2015, 02:15 PM
Sounds good to me. The proposal for up front packs sounds like it would be more prone to abuse as you can instantly get the discount.

You don't get an instant discount though. In his proposed system, you pay $48 and get 24 packs and 6 tickets, which is no discount at all vs the store. It just turns VIP into the only logical way to buy 24+ packs of the current set.

LNQ
07-15-2015, 02:16 PM
Yeah, I realized I didnt read the proposal close enough. Edited my post already to reflect it. Thanks for pointing the error!

magic_gazz
07-15-2015, 02:20 PM
Im pretty sure most casual/new people are not dropping $90 on packs in one go, so the point of buying upfront does not really apply to them either.

I think new people would like the one pack per week as each week they can open their pack and see what goodies they got and change/make new decks. I don't know for sure as im not one of those people.

EntropyBall
07-15-2015, 02:22 PM
Im pretty sure most casual/new people are not dropping $90 on packs in one go, so the point of buying upfront does not really apply to them either.

I think new people would like the one pack per week as each week they can open their pack and see what goodies they got and change/make new decks. I don't know for sure as im not one of those people.

Why would new people (who have no cards) want to spend $96 to get 1 pack? And then wait another 47 weeks to get the full value out? If it was like a subscription service that only charged you monthly, it might make more sense for new people, but the current iteration is not for new players.

dogmod
07-15-2015, 02:28 PM
And we are all forgetting the fact that vip packs don't proc primals :(

Incindium
07-15-2015, 02:30 PM
I've been told multiple times from people that they do proc primals but I've yet to to see proof.

No Primal proc would mean you are paying more for the packs than you should... Although VIP AA's probably would still make it worth doing.

Zophie
07-15-2015, 02:31 PM
And we are all forgetting the fact that vip packs don't proc primals :(

They do proc primals, I've seen it first hand.

magic_gazz
07-15-2015, 02:38 PM
Why would new people (who have no cards) want to spend $96 to get 1 pack? And then wait another 47 weeks to get the full value out? If it was like a subscription service that only charged you monthly, it might make more sense for new people, but the current iteration is not for new players.

You don't have to pay upfront. So perfect for new players.

The sleeves are a bonus for IF you do pay upfront.

Boogaloo
07-15-2015, 03:02 PM
Great post, I always like it when people gather up the available information and analyze it.

Keep it up!

Kramer
07-15-2015, 03:37 PM
I love this especially if it is $8 real money and not 800 plat. I told a ton of my friends that VIP should be $7.95 if I were the Director of Marketing for HexEnt because a lot of the playerbase are still Kickstarters and many of us, myself included do not need to spend real money for awhile and HexEnt needs to fund future expansions/dungeons and I believe this is a great way to gurantee income flow for HexEnt especially from the playerbase that does not need to pay anything right now. Lets not forget, HexEnt is in the business of making money and it takes money to develop content.

To the players who are complaining about cost, here is my advice: Just skip 2 Starbucks coffees per month. You'll get one draft every month with one or two packs (depending on month) left over to save or open. Lets not forget that you get 4 packs for free per year on VIP. Just remember if the playerbase does not pay money, the game everyone loves dies or becomes stagnant due to lack of funding. Besides $8 translates to one hour of work at minimum wage.

IMO, this is the perfect answer for VIP since I do not believe the extra 4 yearly packs will result in players setting up multiple accounts like the original VIP did to take advantage eventhough it is against ToS to have more than one non KS account.

Well, I guess I was off by 5 cents. However, since I am a completionist and need to get the 4 VIP AA's, count me in for my $96 per year.

FlyingMeatchip
07-15-2015, 04:43 PM
For me, the huge discount of 52 packs for 4800-4900 plat is an ok deal. After going thru half of this first years VIP cycle I am finding the current VIP program less appealing though. The one pack a week in itself kinda sucks. The AA's offered following the Xentoth's Inquisitor/Gralk have been extremely lackluster. The plan the OP proposed IMO is a better way to go. All the packs at once, the tickets, sleeve so any player not just the whales get the full value of spending a lump sum for a subscription. With the new VIP program coming up if it's the one proposed by CZE, I'd probably not take part in it. If it were to change again to the OP's vision of VIP, I would be more in favor of it and would spend the $'s. Great analysis of the VIP.

tecnophi
07-15-2015, 05:41 PM
I find the focus on "the VIP is better for "whales" who spend a lot already" distracting for the main point. Whales are usually defined (mostly in F2P games) by the huge amount of money they put in to a game. Not so much in the scale of hundreds of dollars in a year, but thousands of dollars a month. And as said in the OP at that point the packs aren't as important as the VIP ticket and the VIP sleeves.

If I were ask by someone to recommend or not recommend the VIP program... I would say that the VIP ticket is worth it, and would recommend it if you like to play in an official large player tournament for AA cards. The VIP tournament is the only official large player tournament that routinely happens. The packs are nice to offset the costs, but are secondary to the VIP ticket in my opinion. The new VIP is buying access to the VIP tournament basically.

By the change in cost per pack from the old VIP to the new VIP, it's obvious that it increased to the point where it is somewhere between buying a pack from the store and buying a pack from the Auction House. With the intention of avoiding the complication from the old VIP where an individual could have brought a large number of the old VIP for various accounts to get packs each week for half the price.

nicosharp
07-15-2015, 05:44 PM
Nail on Head Tecnophi - I think it's a wolf in sheep's clothing - just there to appease those that wanted, but couldn't have access to VIP tournaments. It's not about value or a BEP.

But I still label "whales", "dude that likes collecting AA cards" - in HEX Ent. speak.

ziggarius
07-15-2015, 06:09 PM
Nail on Head Tecnophi - I think it's a wolf in sheep's clothing - just there to appease those that wanted, but couldn't have access to VIP tournaments. It's not about value or a BEP.

But I still label "whales", "dude that likes collecting AA cards" - in HEX Ent. speak.

*raises hand!* I'd count as a whale under that definition, and I have no problem with dishing out for chances at collecting the AAs for myself. Buying AAs... are typically something I avoid doing, I really enjoy the sense of fulfillment from earning them. :D

Fateanomaly
07-15-2015, 07:11 PM
I don't get that long complicated post. What i know is that as long as you are able to consistently get the 2wins for the AAs, then it is worth it.

NOBLERoostasaur
07-15-2015, 08:44 PM
*Que X-Files theme

*Shows FBI badge "Roost Mulder"

So let me get this straight. The community wanted the VIP program back and then it was brought back. But it actually turns out to be an alien menace disguised as some sort of new VIP program claiming benevolence and fun? It sounds like a conspiracy alright, this new VIP program. It's only goal could be total world domination! Or having a good time.

I can't wait to finally be able to play myself. VIP Hype :D

RCDv57
07-15-2015, 08:54 PM
I don't get that long complicated post. What i know is that as long as you are able to consistently get the 2wins for the AAs, then it is worth it.

He explains in great detail how VIP is not a good investment for new players.
In essence the payout of VIP is far to slow. The tournaments are far too difficult to both join and/or win for those just starting out.

dogmod
07-16-2015, 02:01 AM
They do proc primals, I've seen it first hand.

Pictures or it didn't happen. There has never been dev confirmation that VIP procs primals and I have never once seen a screen shot of someone proccing a primal from a VIP pack.

Elwinz
07-16-2015, 02:32 AM
for me word VIP is mutualy exclusive with casual tbh.
Second thing poeple want to partcipate in those turnaments. Dont look on that like OP did.

wolzarg
07-16-2015, 05:10 AM
To the players who are complaining about cost, here is my advice: Just skip 2 Starbucks coffees per month. You'll get one draft every month with one or two packs (depending on month) left over to save or open.

Nothing specifically against you but i see this exact thing said so many times in so many places and it pisses me off immensely. So all i have to do is skip 2 deeply overpriced cups of coffee that i can't actually afford how nice. 8$ is litterally 8 meals for me thats 4 days of food. I'm not saying the price is right or wrong but the comparison is messed up as not everyone can afford some starbucks.

Kardh
07-16-2015, 05:26 AM
Great analysis, thanks!

Voormas
07-16-2015, 05:54 AM
This is an interesting proposal, I like the part where we get twice as many sleeves...

plaguedealer
07-16-2015, 06:13 AM
I think the vip program is fine and people are making a mountain out of a mole hill. It is $8 a month, it supports hex, and you get awesome stuff. Not sure why we have to go into advanced micro economics regarding the issue.

DocX
07-16-2015, 06:35 AM
I find the focus on "the VIP is better for "whales" who spend a lot already" distracting for the main point. Whales are usually defined (mostly in F2P games) by the huge amount of money they put in to a game. Not so much in the scale of hundreds of dollars in a year, but thousands of dollars a month. And as said in the OP at that point the packs aren't as important as the VIP ticket and the VIP sleeves.

The use of "whale" as terminology might be a little confusing, I'll admit. I took that to mean "someone who's invested in the game and has a robust collection and available packs such that the actual packs provided by the program provide less incremental benefit than they would to the new player. Using this definition, I'd be a whale, even though my month over month contribution to Hex is little to nothing. I think substituting "Mr. Suitcase" or something similar might be reasonable to convey this other meaning (though even there it may have a different connotation and bring along unwanted baggage).


So let me get this straight. The community wanted the VIP program back and then it was brought back. But it actually turns out to be an alien menace disguised as some sort of new VIP program claiming benevolence and fun? It sounds like a conspiracy alright, this new VIP program. It's only goal could be total world domination! Or having a good time.

No, I think the OP makes a pretty convincing argument that the new VIP (which is different than the old one which the community used for its basis when asking for it back) does not meet the original stated goal of the program as articulated by Cory in his original post with regards to new players. I also don't think the OP claimed anywhere that the changes to the new program were done with any malicious intent. My perception was they were pointing out the differences between stated goal and current outcome; and then providing a suggestion for tweaking the system to more closely align the outcomes with the goals.

Dismissing this as a conspiracy theory undermines the pretty thorough analysis Hexgo did. I'm a data guy and I would hate to see efforts such as these to bring rigorous critical analysis of the game and its components undergo a chilling effect from this sort of offhand dismissal by an Orange poster.


To the players who are complaining about cost, here is my advice: Just skip 2 Starbucks coffees per month. You'll get one draft every month with one or two packs (depending on month) left over to save or open. Lets not forget that you get 4 packs for free per year on VIP. Just remember if the playerbase does not pay money, the game everyone loves dies or becomes stagnant due to lack of funding. Besides $8 translates to one hour of work at minimum wage.

<rant>Actually, $8 translates to 1.13 hours (or just under an hour and 8 minutes) for a single person in the US with no deductions. $8 is also around 3% of their take-home pay for a 40 hour work week and, based on average cost of living. "Hey, that's not a lot". . . well, someone earning $8/hour takes home 14,733.04 and, while this varies based on location, using Atlanta as an example the average cost of living is $23,247 for a single person. . . so, yeah, $8 can be a hell of a lot to some people. Recognize that, if you're able to skip a Daily Starbucks, you're extremely fortunate in a way that many others aren't.</rant>


Nothing specifically against you but i see this exact thing said so many times in so many places and it pisses me off immensely. So all i have to do is skip 2 deeply overpriced cups of coffee that i can't actually afford how nice. 8$ is litterally 8 meals for me thats 4 days of food. I'm not saying the price is right or wrong but the comparison is messed up as not everyone can afford some starbucks.

This.

Tazelbain
07-16-2015, 06:59 AM
If you don't think something is a good deal, don't buy it. That's the reason I am not going to buy the gauntlets and reason I will be buying the new VIP.

Vorpal
07-16-2015, 07:29 AM
Nice analysis OP, good graphs.

I think this new VIP is a more solid foundation than the old easily abused VIP.

VIP tournaments are really what VIP is about, not the cheaper packs.

I do like 'subscribing' and getting packs in the mail though :)

Saeijou
07-16-2015, 07:43 AM
Very nice analysis and yeah, you should interview yourself more often! well done :)

nicosharp
07-16-2015, 08:15 AM
If you don't think something is a good deal, don't buy it. That's the reason I am not going to buy the gauntlets and reason I will be buying the new VIP.
Interesting. If I had to compare the two with my logic, I'd come to the inverse conclusion. But that is the beauty of choice and personal analysis.

Turtlewing
07-16-2015, 09:25 AM
He explains in great detail how VIP is not a good investment for new players.
In essence the payout of VIP is far to slow. The tournaments are far too difficult to both join and/or win for those just starting out.

Well, that's not exactly the takeaway.

VIP is a poor purchase choice for a new player if it's their only or primary source of packs. Which frankly should have been obvious, as the saying goes "a bird in hand is worth 2 in the bush". It is still a good investment for any player, but as an investment it takes time to realize that value.

If you are a veteran player with a collection, or if you also plan to buy singles/packs/sealed/draft entries in addition to your VIP membership VIP is solid long term value.

Oli
07-16-2015, 12:01 PM
Interesting. If I had to compare the two with my logic, I'd come to the inverse conclusion. But that is the beauty of choice and personal analysis.
I would love VIP-gauntlets instead of sealed...

Chark
07-16-2015, 12:50 PM
I would love VIP-gauntlets instead of sealed...

I like it! Going to think a bit more about the tech that we would need and economy ramifications.


Disclaimer: Blah blah blah, forward-looking statements. Don't assume or read anything into this :)

Zubrin
07-16-2015, 12:52 PM
I like it! Going to think a bit more about the tech that we would need and economy ramifications.


Disclaimer: Blah blah blah, forward-looking statements. Don't assume or read anything into this :)


Chark confirms that everyone will be getting a pony with Set 3 patch.

Tazelbain
07-16-2015, 01:03 PM
I like it! Going to think a bit more about the tech that we would need and economy ramifications.


Disclaimer: Blah blah blah, forward-looking statements. Don't assume or read anything into this :)In that case, I would hope gauntlets would be added to the rotation of VIP events not replace one of the two events already in rotation.

Oli
07-16-2015, 01:08 PM
I like it! Going to think a bit more about the tech that we would need and economy ramifications.
Open a VIP gauntlet on the weekend and keep it going for a week. If players did not finish all their games by the end award prices based on current results.

Xenavire
07-16-2015, 01:11 PM
I like it! Going to think a bit more about the tech that we would need and economy ramifications.


Disclaimer: Blah blah blah, forward-looking statements. Don't assume or read anything into this :)

Please, if you do consider this, provide both. I am sure gauntlet is great and all, but its not a mode I plan to play much - I would much prefer a 4 round sealed. I would hate for that to go away because something else seemed more convenient. :p

Oli
07-16-2015, 01:17 PM
You could add a corresponding (sealed or constructed) gauntlet together with the existing tourneys.

silverlocke
07-16-2015, 07:26 PM
I am curious to see what will happen on set 4. No more freebies from kickstarter. Then this analysis applies pretty hard to anyone who isn't a pro player or GK+ tier. (i.e. only 2100 ppl might be PP/GK+ right?)

2100 players getting a free weekly draft is still pretty significant compared to the play-base I feel like I am seeing day-in and day-out.

Hexgo
07-17-2015, 04:43 AM
Thank you all for your interest, the inputs and to some for them nice responses

Special thanks to DocX: definitely wouldn’t be able to give my backhand with that much eloquence. Really appreciated.

Clarification

The expression „whale“
The expression „whale“ might be confusing/unfortunate. It wasn’t my intent to judge particular groups of players or label some people with a name they don’t identify themselves with.

I just couldn’t come up with some something better.
Maybe Hex Enthusiast? Or Mr. Suitcase? I didn’t want to go into defining some segments and derail the thread into if they were right or wrong.

The name VIP
Yes as I stated in the post, I think the name VIP seems now more accurate than before (where the VIP-Program basically was super nice for everyone).

On the other hand with Cory being such a passionate “Backer-Hugger” I would totally believe a story where the HEX team sat in the conference room discussing the whole “Premium-Subscription” case – developed for a VIP-Elite only – banging his fist on the table pointing fingers and shouting: “No, no, no! I love everyone and everyone playing HEX is a VIP in my eyes!”

Edit:

Holy Shit, my brain just melted...
also, I LOVE this community :)

Ha! Now I found the ultimate weapon. Dare I never have to use it! :)

ThomasHunter
07-17-2015, 07:31 AM
I like it! Going to think a bit more about the tech that we would need and economy ramifications.


Disclaimer: Blah blah blah, forward-looking statements. Don't assume or read anything into this :)

This would seem dreamy to me!!!

DocX
07-17-2015, 07:46 AM
Chark confirms that everyone will be getting a pony with Set 3 patch.

So, Chark is the new Ghostcrawler? Does that mean I can start asking him questions about Marine Biology?

Turtlewing
07-17-2015, 11:23 AM
I would love VIP-gauntlets instead of sealed...

Isn't the core concept of gauntlets that they're the opposite of a scheduled event why would they ever replace scheduled tournaments?

Chark
07-17-2015, 11:27 AM
So, Chark is the new Ghostcrawler? Does that mean I can start asking him questions about Marine Biology?

I've met Ghostcrawler before and I am no Ghostcrawler :) I do admire his ability to both be communicative about design decisions for a hugely successful game and his patience with a gigantic internet audience.

Chark
07-17-2015, 11:28 AM
Isn't the core concept of gauntlets that they're the opposite of a scheduled event why would they ever replace scheduled tournaments?

Because one of the feedbacks we received about VIP tournaments when we launched them last year was "Why are you scheduling them? I should be able to play in a VIP tournament on my own time."

EntropyBall
07-17-2015, 12:24 PM
Because one of the feedbacks we received about VIP tournaments when we launched them last year was "Why are you scheduling them? I should be able to play in a VIP tournament on my own time."

The fixed schedule of VIP tournaments has certainly limited my participation. I often would get home 30-60 minutes after one started, and be unable to stay up late enough to do the next one.

zadies
07-17-2015, 12:37 PM
This article is assuming that the new VIP tickets don't have the ridiculous cost to use them that the old VIP tournament tickets did. If they keep the same pricing model for use of the VIP ticket then it is a complete waste of money.

x78089
07-17-2015, 12:41 PM
I have no doubt the pricing will remain the same to enter the tourney. Now, why is it ridiculous?

DoctorJoe
07-17-2015, 12:43 PM
I like the packs-up-front idea for VIP. If possible I'd buy in to it for each set release. This is how I managed my budget for my previous digital card addiction. If I can't win enough to keep playing limited before rotation, I stop playing limited.

If there were VIP gauntlets for constructed, I would hope they could be best of 3. At some point in the life of Hex, reserves will play a huge part in the constructed metagame.

zadies
07-17-2015, 12:52 PM
I have no doubt the pricing will remain the same to enter the tourney. Now, why is it ridiculous?

The pack cost of entry is fine, providing a ticket to participate in a tournament that you bought and paid for and then charging to play in it was atrocious when it was first introduced and increasing the price of purchasing the ticket just makes it that much worse.

x78089
07-17-2015, 12:58 PM
Any tourney with increased prize support is going to require increased cost. Nothing ridiculous about it.

ziggarius
07-17-2015, 01:04 PM
Not to mention that the cost of the VIP program is for packs, not the VIP ticket which is provided as a bonus for purchasing a weekly pack subscription of 1 month or more in duration. I understand the real reason we want VIP is for the VIP ticket, but let's be honest we can't assign a value greater than 0 to those thanks to the boosters we get covering the cost of VIP.

purpenflurb
07-18-2015, 01:53 AM
Any tourney with increased prize support is going to require increased cost. Nothing ridiculous about it.

The argument is that they do have an increased cost. The increased cost is the opportunity cost you now lose by getting packs over time instead of all at once. Which is, economically speaking, a very real cost.


Not to mention that the cost of the VIP program is for packs, not the VIP ticket which is provided as a bonus for purchasing a weekly pack subscription of 1 month or more in duration. I understand the real reason we want VIP is for the VIP ticket, but let's be honest we can't assign a value greater than 0 to those thanks to the boosters we get covering the cost of VIP.

It's fine if you think that way, but that is simply not how it works. Anything being offered as a part of a purchased bundle contributes to its value, no matter how it is advertised. With the new system, the VIP tickets are not some nice added bonus that cryptozoic is giving us because they are so wonderful. It is the only real reason to buy VIP instead of just getting packs as you need them. This post/discussion isn't about players who are already completely sold on hex, it is about players on the fence who will be more critical in analyzing what they are getting for their money. And honestly, those are the players the game needs to appeal to most right now.

x78089
07-18-2015, 12:16 PM
The argument is that they do have an increased cost. The increased cost is the opportunity cost you now lose by getting packs over time instead of all at once. Which is, economically speaking, a very real cost.



Nowhere did I say that it isn't a cost. I merely remarked that increased cost for increased prize support is to be expected. Everyone here has the option of choosing whether to purchase or not. This consternation that we shouldn't have to pay more to get more is the ridiculous thing. If HXE deides to give us more great, but o/w the value is there IMO.

magic_gazz
07-18-2015, 09:49 PM
People should stop acting like it is an "increased cost".

The previous cost was wrong and a mistake, this is the CORRECT cost.

The reason for the charge to enter VIP tournaments is (1) The extra value of the prizes (2) If this was covered up front the subscription price would be too high.

Remember that new people will not know that this price is higher than the version they used to have, so acting like its a problem for them is a bit of an untruth.

Elwinz
07-19-2015, 12:51 AM
Poeple just wanted be a part of this big tournaments where we know all theres almost nothing going besides drafting. Just complaining about nont getting free booster anymore is just making me thinkong that these posters only just wanted abuse old broken vip

KOFVSCAPCOM
07-19-2015, 04:11 AM
I think the point of his post is that this new VIP system is not all that enticing to new players unless they're willing to drop a bunch on boosters day 1 also. The main draw of the system is the VIP tickets to win AAs, and the special sleeves if you're into that sort of thing. Neither of those things would be the main priority of a player completely new to the game. Not to say that the new system is bad, if you're already invested in the game and are confident in your ability to win in the VIP tourneys it's a good deal. But I agree that it probably won't bring in the new blood and isn't all that great for the casual/new player if that was the intent.

purpenflurb
07-19-2015, 07:52 AM
Poeple just wanted be a part of this big tournaments where we know all theres almost nothing going besides drafting. Just complaining about nont getting free booster anymore is just making me thinkong that these posters only just wanted abuse old broken vip

Posts like this make me sad. Why can't we have a logical, reasonable discussion about some excellent points the OP brought up without resulting to ad hominem attacks? You can disagree with the points all you want, but assuming that the people who make them want to abuse the system is unfair and counter-productive.

x78089
07-19-2015, 08:02 AM
Posts like this make me sad. Why can't we have a logical, reasonable discussion about some excellent points the OP brought up without resulting to ad hominem attacks? You can disagree with the points all you want, but assuming that the people who make them want to abuse the system is unfair and counter-productive.

Agreed. It is ok to disagree with a substantial increase in cost, but to call the costs ridiculous is wrong. Purpenflurb, you have been completely reasonable, despite what some of your fellow posters have said.

majin
07-19-2015, 01:07 PM
first of all, great analysis

about the new vip, i am very much happy with it because the main reason why i didn't get the old one is I don't like constructed tourneys and I know that I won't always be online for the sealed ones so I expected that more than half of my vip tickets will go to waste

the new one, solved it, i can schedule a weekend where I can use most of my tickets on sealed and they don't have an expiry date (unless I misread or misunderstood that part)

but I also agree that the new system will not be that great for new players. if I want to play sealed from my vip packs (assuming new players don't have enough cash for the game or used theirs in the normal tourneys), they need to wait 6 weeks for those packs and that is really a big letdown

the OPs suggestion of VIP packs will solve this and I personally prefer to have all my packs in one go every month (for 3 months vip) or every 2 months (for 6 months vip) or every 3 months (for 1 year vip) (IF a one time go isn't appealing to CZE based on their own analysis).

this will allow me to use them easily for tourneys (I only need to buy 2 more for draft, if I get 4 packs at the start of the month) than waiting for them to trickle down to my inventory for a year

the vip ticket is really the reason why there is a vip system and I agree that for most, that is enough to get the new vip system, i know it is good enough for me

Hexgo
07-20-2015, 02:53 PM
People should stop acting like it is an "increased cost".

The previous cost was wrong and a mistake, this is the CORRECT cost. [....]

Remember that new people will not know that this price is higher than the version they used to have, so acting like its a problem for them is a bit of an untruth.


Why would the old price be wrong and the new one correct?
As I understand it to old one was ok for Hex Ent. but had to be changed because they couldn't enforce a one account policy. The new price is an action against this abuse.

It could also be 200$ without packs and the price wouldn't be "wong". It just limits the customers amenable to the product. I just pointed out that the new VIP-Program might exclude some customers which actually should have been the main bulk of the initial thought behind the program.

And the problem I described with the new players is not that they compare the old to the new system. It's about what I tried to point out in "scenario 2".

I might be wrong, but I think that saw in another post of yours that you rather stack 2xVIP and get 2 boosters a week for 1 year instead of 1 booster a week for 2 years. Think about why that is :-)

zadies
07-21-2015, 06:14 AM
The issue I am having is the VIP program exists to guarantee revenue for the company this is actually quite important which was why originally it was designed with the discount on the packs that people abused. With a micro-transaction game such as this the guaranteed revenue is actually quite valuable.

Now the VIP program is more valuable to the company then the consumer period end of story given there is no value added for the customer. Getting a ticket that you have to pay yet more money to participate in a tournament when you are buying packs at face value is a complete rip off. The prize support for the tournament is being paid for when i'm paying 4 bucks extra monthly to buy the ticket now.

Abidar
07-21-2015, 07:02 AM
I believe they said that it's 52 packs a year for your $8 bucks a month so you actually aren't getting them "at face value". Long term you get them at 185p per pack. Now, what I wonder is if I sign up for a month of VIP on a month that has 5 weeks, will I get 5 packs? 160p for a pack isn't too shabby.

Alamand
07-21-2015, 07:07 AM
I believe they said that it's 52 packs a year for your $8 bucks a month so you actually aren't getting them "at face value". Long term you get them at 185p per pack. Now, what I wonder is if I sign up for a month of VIP on a month that has 5 weeks, will I get 5 packs? 160p for a pack isn't too shabby.

No, the system doesn't actually care about months or weeks at all, it simply gives you a pack when you sign up, then another pack every 7 days after that for however many packs you signed up for.

israel.kendall
07-21-2015, 07:08 AM
The issue I am having is the VIP program exists to guarantee revenue for the company this is actually quite important which was why originally it was designed with the discount on the packs that people abused. With a micro-transaction game such as this the guaranteed revenue is actually quite valuable.

Now the VIP program is more valuable to the company then the consumer period end of story given there is no value added for the customer. Getting a ticket that you have to pay yet more money to participate in a tournament when you are buying packs at face value is a complete rip off. The prize support for the tournament is being paid for when i'm paying 4 bucks extra monthly to buy the ticket now.

I look at it as, if I spend 8 bucks a month buying packs I get a chance to enter a VIP tourney. Seems fine to me.

fitzle
07-21-2015, 07:51 AM
Much props to the OP, that really was a great analysis although talking to yourself (and replying) is a sign of mental illness. So maybe instead of all this card talk someone should really be looking at finding this man some help!

Abidar
07-21-2015, 08:17 AM
No, the system doesn't actually care about months or weeks at all, it simply gives you a pack when you sign up, then another pack every 7 days after that for however many packs you signed up for.

According to Community Manager Phenteo on Reddit what I said seems to be correct. http://www.reddit.com/r/hextcg/comments/3d42ap/vip_is_returning_at_a_higher_price/ct37i0s

Phenteo
07-21-2015, 08:23 AM
No, the system doesn't actually care about months or weeks at all, it simply gives you a pack when you sign up, then another pack every 7 days after that for however many packs you signed up for.

You don't sign up for packs, you sign up for time periods. If you purchase a month that has 5 weeks, you pay $8 for 5 packs.

malloc31
07-21-2015, 08:33 AM
so if you join on the first then cancel the auto-renew and do that all year you pretty much get 5 packs every month? and this is intentional?

malloc31
07-21-2015, 08:35 AM
and if you join in the last week of the month you only get the one pack?

Xenavire
07-21-2015, 08:37 AM
and if you join in the last week of the month you only get the one pack?

It goes from the sub date to the day before that date a month later. So a sub on April 30 would give you May 29 as an end date.

Phenteo
07-21-2015, 08:40 AM
so if you join on the first then cancel the auto-renew and do that all year you pretty much get 5 packs every month? and this is intentional?

If you cancel the auto-renew you will just have to manually renew when your VIP lapses. You couldn't do it before. So, if you purchase on the 1st of a month, you get that entire month and have to wait for VIP to lapse.

malloc31
07-21-2015, 08:41 AM
so then any time you sign up for only one month and the month (that you sign up in) is 29 or more days long you get 5 packs.

malloc31
07-21-2015, 08:45 AM
If you cancel the auto-renew you will just have to manually renew when your VIP lapses. You couldn't do it before. So, if you purchase on the 1st of a month, you get that entire month and have to wait for VIP to lapse.


I assume you can cancel auto renew before the end of your term (otherwise it would have renewed before you could cancel it). so then as soon as your term runs you you can start the cycle again for the next month. And it will work every month other then February, unless i am missing something

Thand
07-21-2015, 08:50 AM
If you cancel the auto-renew you will just have to manually renew when your VIP lapses. You couldn't do it before. So, if you purchase on the 1st of a month, you get that entire month and have to wait for VIP to lapse.
So, if this is a thirty day month, then you get a pack on the 1st, the 8th, the 15th, the 22nd, and the 29th. Then if you wait for the sub to expire on the 1st and resub that same day, do you immediately get another pack? If so, you can get a 5 packs every month of the year except February on non leap years. Is this intentional or is there some system to prevent this?

Phenteo
07-21-2015, 08:52 AM
so then any time you sign up for only one month and the month (that you sign up in) is 29 or more days long you get 5 packs.

I can see what you're trying to say. Here's an image to hopefully help clear things up.

This image shows how the system is intended to work.

http://i.imgur.com/3dXJI6n.png

malloc31
07-21-2015, 08:54 AM
so you have to wait 7 days after your term ends to be able to get another pack? makes sense, but I don't see that mentioned anywhere

nicosharp
07-21-2015, 08:54 AM
what if we sign up for 1 year on a leap year?

Saeijou
07-21-2015, 08:55 AM
i think he wants to say, that the average months is 4.348125 weeks.
so you should get 4.3 packs... (not working obviously). but in some month you should get a fifth pack

malloc31
07-21-2015, 08:55 AM
it only says:

Q: When do I receive my weekly booster pack?
A: Your first booster pack will appear in your account shortly after a successful purchase of the VIP program. Booster packs will be inserted into your account every week on the day you purchased thereafter.

malloc31
07-21-2015, 08:57 AM
and if this is true you can sign up once every 5 weeks (10 1/2 times a year) to get a 52 packs

Phenteo
07-21-2015, 08:57 AM
so you have to wait 7 days after your term ends to be able to get another pack? makes sense, but I don't see that mentioned anywhere

What? You buy a month, you get a month (depending on length of month you buy into). If you purchase VIP and resub a week where you received a pack already that week, you have to wait to get a pack. You do not have to wait 7 days to resub. You should also get a VIP ticket a few moments after you resub.

Xenavire
07-21-2015, 08:57 AM
what if we sign up for 1 year on a leap year?

I assume if that one day adds another week to the calendar somehow, then it probably will add another booster, but you might not get another instantly when you renew the day after it expires. (Yay calendars?)

nicosharp
07-21-2015, 08:58 AM
I assume if that one day adds another week to the calendar somehow, then it probably will add another booster, but you might not get another instantly when you renew the day after it expires. (Yay calendars?)

I was under the impression I'd just get 4 years of VIP for the price of 1. Will test! :p

malloc31
07-21-2015, 09:00 AM
What? You buy a month, you get a month (depending on length of month you buy into). If you purchase VIP and resub a week where you received a pack already that week, you have to wait to get a pack. You do not have to wait 7 days to resub. You should also get a VIP ticket a few moments after you resub.

you just showed if you have already gotten a pack that week you need to wait till then next week to get another. so even if it lets you subscribe it is somehow delaying activation of your membership, right?

Xenavire
07-21-2015, 09:00 AM
I was under the impression I'd just get 4 years of VIP for the price of 1. Will test! :p

Oh god, this made me smile. ;)

Thand
07-21-2015, 09:02 AM
you just showed if you have already gotten a pack that week you need to wait till then next week to get another. so even if it lets you subscribe it is somehow delaying activation of your membership, right?
I don't think it's delaying your membership, just the arrival of your first pack. You should still get your VIP tournament tickets right away. Also, "waiting until next week" is not the same as "waiting seven days".

Phenteo
07-21-2015, 09:03 AM
you just showed if you have already gotten a pack that week you need to wait till then next week to get another. so even if it lets you subscribe it is somehow delaying activation of your membership, right?

You are adding rules that aren't there.

The only thing you have to wait for is the pack, you would still have to wait for the following week to get the pack even if you didn't cancel the auto-renew. You get a VIP ticket right away.

If you purchase each month for 12 months, you get 52 packs. You purchase a year, you get 52 packs. However, you only get the sleeve if you purchase a year and not 12 individual months.

malloc31
07-21-2015, 09:40 AM
You are adding rules that aren't there.

The only thing you have to wait for is the pack, you would still have to wait for the following week to get the pack even if you didn't cancel the auto-renew. You get a VIP ticket right away.

If you purchase each month for 12 months, you get 52 packs. You purchase a year, you get 52 packs. However, you only get the sleeve if you purchase a year and not 12 individual months.

my point was you can just subscribe once every 5 weeks (there is no point in subscribing until you are eligible to receive a pack anyways) and you will get 52 packs a year also.

But truthfully you don't come out much head, you do more work, get less VIP tickets, but pay slightly less (you pretty much get a month free).

correct me if I am wrong still.

Saeijou
07-21-2015, 09:49 AM
http://i.imgur.com/3dXJI6n.png


my point was you can just subscribe once every 5 weeks (there is no point in subscribing until you are eligible to receive a pack anyways) and you will get 52 packs a year also.

But truthfully you don't come out much head, you do more work, get less VIP tickets, but pay slightly less (you pretty much get a month free).

correct me if I am wrong still.

I think what malloc wants to say is:
you subscribe on the first of july, a wednesday. so you will get a pack on the 29th again, but your month runs out on the 31.

if you would resubscribe immediatly, you wouldnt get a new pack on the first, but on the fifth.
so for him it is better to subscribe on the fifth directly again, since he didnt has to pay for 4 "empty" days.

Oli
07-21-2015, 11:37 AM
You could subscribe on the 1st of Juli and get 5 Packs till the 1st of August.
Than you can resubscribe on the 8th of August and could get 5packs till the 8th of September...
Gives a total of 10 packs for 2 month subscription ($8).
3644

ziggarius
07-21-2015, 11:39 AM
You could subscribe on the 1st of Juli and get 5 Packs till the 1st of August.
Than you can resubscribe on the 8th of August and could get 6 packs till the 8th of September...
Gives a total of 11 packs for 2 month subscription ($8).
3644

Pack 11 in your example would only happen if you subscribed through to 12th of September. That's 10 packs (I think).

Oli
07-21-2015, 11:46 AM
Pack 11 in your example would only happen if you subscribed through to 12th of September. That's 10 packs (I think).
Yeah, right. I'll edit my 1st-post...