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Sparrow
07-16-2015, 06:23 AM
We're approaching a major milestone for Hex. Not only is the third set about to release, but limited play will no longer be available for the first two sets. This has never before happened in the history of Hex and what the exact policies are surrounding this have been confusing to some and upsetting to others.

There are a number of issues that there are no clear or easily found answer on. There is a lot of conjecture about how it might be, how it should be, how it shouldn't be, but CZE has been largely silent on the following points:

Will every block have two sets?
When will sets rotate out of constructed play and will they be leaving a block at a time or a set at a time?
When will blocks go out of print?
Will entire blocks go out of print or will it be one set at a time?
Will cards be reprinted in future sets?
Will there be cards that will never be reprinted in future sets?
If there are cards that will never be reprinted, when or will we be told what they are?
Are there plans to release cards that are functionally identical to previously released cards, but different in name only?
Is there no limit to the number of boosters CZE can issue through prizes/promotions of an out of print set or will there be a set # of packs that CZE "holds" in reserve that once they're gone, that's it, no more packs of the set will ever be issued?
Will equipment go out of print?

I wrote the above points non-stop without pause, so these are just issues off the top of my head. There are many others, no doubt.

If CZE's answer for some or all of these points is either "Has not been decided" or "We haven't given it much thought" I'm 100% okay with that. As has been posted often in the last weeks by many different people, there is an impression that these answers are known, but not being shared. My personal belief is that every policy is subject to change at this point and final decisions haven't been made on most of these issues. If so, please tell us that, we can handle it.

If this were just a purely F2P game, I wouldn't especially care about most or possibly any of the answers. I also probably wouldn't be playing this. When there's a game like Hex that really has no real limit on the amount of money a player can spend, the answers to these questions are critical and are something the community would be best served by getting the information sooner rather than later.

Maybe the best way to address these points, after things wind down post-convention, is to post them in a weekly update along with the rationale behind whatever the policy is?

Thanks for reading.

plaguedealer
07-16-2015, 06:29 AM
I think the majority of your questions have somewhat of a answer, problem is the game is still young, there will be changes and there is not a databse to easily look up the answers.

My understanding is that sets will no longer be sold at some point, we dont know when, but will be given ample warning. There will be reprints.

Bombs
07-16-2015, 06:37 AM
These are the answers I have off the top of my head

Will every block have two sets?
No. I believe they currently plan on two sets each for Block 1 & 2, then moving to 3 set blocks. But that may change.

When will sets rotate out of constructed play and will they be leaving a block at a time or a set at a time?
The whole block rotates out.

When will blocks go out of print?
Three blocks will be in print at any time. When Block 4 begins, Block 1 will go out of print.

Will entire blocks go out of print or will it be one set at a time?
The entire block.

Will cards be reprinted in future sets?
I don't believe we have any information on this.

Will there be cards that will never be reprinted in future sets?
I don't believe we have any information on this.

If there are cards that will never be reprinted, when or will we be told what they are?
I don't believe we have any information on this.

Are there plans to release cards that are functionally identical to previously released cards, but different in name only?
I don't believe we have any information on this.

Is there no limit to the number of boosters CZE can issue through prizes/promotions of an out of print set or will there be a set # of packs that CZE "holds" in reserve that once they're gone, that's it, no more packs of the set will ever be issued?
Shoot, Cory said something about this on his last 2 Turns Ahead interview (I believe episode 50), but I cannot recall.

Will equipment go out of print?
Equipment is in chests, chests come from packs. When the pack goes out of print, the equipment goes out of print. I do not believe CZE has announced how loot table rotation from PvE will work in the future.

ossuary
07-16-2015, 06:39 AM
Will every block have two sets?

No, the plan is to move to 3 sets per block after block 2 (so starting with set 5). Plans, as always, can change prior to finalization and release.


When will sets rotate out of constructed play and will they be leaving a block at a time or a set at a time?

TBD. CZE hasn't determined the exact number of sets that will be in print at a time yet (at least, not publicly). Cards will rotate out an entire block at a time, however.

Note: expect there to eventually be at least 3 tournament formats: legacy (everything), modern (last X blocks), and standard/limited (current block only, probably only for draft/sealed?)


When will blocks go out of print?

Once we have enough sets for there to be an actual rotation of tournament standard blocks, a block will go out of print in the store when it phases out of legal tournament play.


Will entire blocks go out of print or will it be one set at a time?

It would be a full block, not just a set.


Will cards be reprinted in future sets?

Cory said at one point they would most likely reprint staple cards in future sets, or come up with something else for the digital age, like a "core" set that is always in print, containing staple cards any player would want, from multiple sets. Exact details of this are still TBD, at least publicly.


Will there be cards that will never be reprinted in future sets?

We have no way to know this at this point. Probably CZE doesn't even know this yet.


If there are cards that will never be reprinted, when or will we be told what they are?

TBD


Are there plans to release cards that are functionally identical to previously released cards, but different in name only?

God I hope not. We don't need 18 different Grizzly Bears.


Is there no limit to the number of boosters CZE can issue through prizes/promotions of an out of print set or will there be a set # of packs that CZE "holds" in reserve that once they're gone, that's it, no more packs of the set will ever be issued?

I'm sure Chark will be very careful about this kind of thing. Don't expect to see very much out of print content showing up. I'm sure there will be some small amount of reserved material for special giveaways or contests or celebrations, but it will be a rare occurrence.


Will equipment go out of print?

It can't really go out of print, because you can't buy it. Loot tables for dungeons will be modified over time though, so stuff that drops in the PVE campaign that is tied to a specific PVP set may get harder or impossible to get eventually, but that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Maybe there will be a dungeon of the lost (Junkyard Dogs, anyone?) where equipment from out of print sets is much higher on the loot table, so you always have a place to go to try to find abandoned equipment for those older cards.

Fred
07-16-2015, 06:40 AM
There are a number of issues that there are no clear or easily found answer on. There is a lot of conjecture about how it might be, how it should be, how it shouldn't be, but CZE has been largely silent on the following points:

Will every block have two sets?
When will sets rotate out of constructed play and will they be leaving a block at a time or a set at a time?
When will blocks go out of print?
Will entire blocks go out of print or will it be one set at a time?
Will cards be reprinted in future sets?
Will there be cards that will never be reprinted in future sets?
If there are cards that will never be reprinted, when or will we be told what they are?
Are there plans to release cards that are functionally identical to previously released cards, but different in name only?
Is there no limit to the number of boosters CZE can issue through prizes/promotions of an out of print set or will there be a set # of packs that CZE "holds" in reserve that once they're gone, that's it, no more packs of the set will ever be issued?
Will equipment go out of print?


I don't have all the links and information on hand right now, but it's mostly out there somewhere. Some of those questions have been asked and answered by Cory in interviews which are posted online somewhere. You can start by listening to an interview with Cory on the 2 Turns Ahead podcast here: http://2turnsahead.com/episode-50-conversation-with-cory-jones/ . Here's the answers that have been given over time.

Q. Will every block have two sets?
A. No. Only the first 2 blocks will have two sets. Block 1 is set 1-2. Block 2 is set 3-4. Block 3 is set 5-6-7. Every block after that will be 3 sets.

Q. When will sets rotate out of constructed play and will they be leaving a block at a time or a set at a time?
A. Same as for other similar TCGs. The current block and the previous block will be constructed legal. When Block 3 (set 5) comes out, Block 1 (set 1-2) will rotate out of constructed play and no longer be constructed legal.

Q. When will blocks go out of print?
A. No definitive answer on this one, but blocks will go out of print, quite possibly soon after they're no longer constructed legal (see above).

Q. Will entire blocks go out of print or will it be one set at a time?
A. Undetermined. (My own speculation is that it would be entire block at once, since the whole block stops being constructed legal at the same time).

Q. Will cards be reprinted in future sets?
A. Yes.

Q. Will there be cards that will never be reprinted in future sets?
A. Yes.

Q. If there are cards that will never be reprinted, when or will we be told what they are?
A. Probably never. They can't predict the future. Get your playsets today.

Q. Are there plans to release cards that are functionally identical to previously released cards, but different in name only?
A. Undetermined.

Q. Is there no limit to the number of boosters CZE can issue through prizes/promotions of an out of print set or will there be a set # of packs that CZE "holds" in reserve that once they're gone, that's it, no more packs of the set will ever be issued?
A. Right before a set/block goes out of print, HexEnt will "print" a finite number of packs for their own promo stash. Once the block goes out of print, no more packs will get printed ever, even for their promos needs. Cory is adamant about the need to preserve the value of a collection, and artificially printing older sets in the future would devalue collections.

Q. Will equipment go out of print?
A. I actually asked that question to Cory personally, and he masterfully avoided to give a specific answer, probably because it's not yet determined. Here's his answer:


You have actually hit upon a pretty big challenge for us, how to balance PVE and PVP in terms of loot drops and set / block rotation, we are currently working on ideas and will talk about it at length as we start to give insight in to the larger PVE plan (and its HUGE)

its funny, it does not seem like a big deal, but some of the challenges of the game (like this) are the devil in the details that really make it complex to balance everything.

Sparrow
07-16-2015, 07:39 AM
Bombs, ossuary, and Fred I appreciate you going point by point through my post and taking the time to answer -- I was kind of expecting trolling/flames right out of the box because that's how it often seems to go here.

However, the three of you have illustrated why CZE needs to publicly address these issues, because each of you gave different answers to some of the questions. AFAIK, this information isn't centrally located, in official form, anywhere. Look at the people who feel burned because Fate block isn't going to be available for limited any more. CZE has already given out hundreds of thousands of $$'s in free product to mitigate various issues and I've no doubt they'll be giving out much more than that in the future, but it will be hard to make everyone happy (collector's, F2P'ers, PVP'ers, PVE'ers, etc.) if people are caught flat-footed when expectations don't meet the reality of policy.

I just want to reiterate that following the convention in early August, CZE should make answering these questions somewhat of a priority.

plaguedealer
07-16-2015, 07:54 AM
Not to troll but alot of the questions you are asking would not take place until years from now. Also, the game is in its infancy and how pvp blocks, etc. work is subject to change.

PVP is important to this game, but after set 3 the focus will be on pve. Thereafter, hex can worry some more on what the next 3 years looks like for pvp.

Sparrow
07-16-2015, 08:04 AM
You're absolutely right and I don't consider your response trolling. It's also my belief that these issues are undecided, in large part. If that's so, then we as a community have the ability to help shape what the policy actually will be. With Fate block leaving limited play, it really caught my attention how many people had no idea that was going to happen. And then there's always the issue that we don't know what we don't know.

I'm not enough of an investor that I'm too concerned about the long term implications of reprints and secondary market value, but with a game that is designed to have open-ended spending on product, I'm sure some are concerned much more than I am.

plaguedealer
07-16-2015, 08:13 AM
In my opinion the community should have some say of what pvp will look like after pve is implemented. If hex makes a ton of money through pve, they need to decide how that will affect their plans in the future. I am not saying pvp should be abandoned.

I would think reprints, set rotations will be similar to magic. However, I want hex to make all this determination after pve comes out.

Timlagor
07-16-2015, 08:54 AM
For people who know about this sort of thing: do card prices go up or down when sets go out of print and stop being used for constructed?

Thrawn
07-16-2015, 09:10 AM
For people who know about this sort of thing: do card prices go up or down when sets go out of print and stop being used for constructed?

This doesn't have an easy answer because it brings up too many other questions. Are some of those cards reprinted? What formats do we have that use those cards? How popular are those formats? Etc. etc.

For example ff we end up with some format in a few years that allows all sets, and a bunch of cards from Set 1 and 2 are the best cards in that format the value of those cards could shoot way up.

bwarner
07-16-2015, 09:13 AM
For people who know about this sort of thing: do card prices go up or down when sets go out of print and stop being used for constructed?

Going out of print means that the supply becomes fixed. It doesn't necessarily have an affect on the price, although if demand increases (such as new players joining the game faster than old ones leaving) the price can go up.

Stopping being used for constructed will have some downward effect on demand, so prices will generally drop. However, depending on the impact that PVE has, constructed tournament play may be a relatively small portion of demand.

Note that the two things don't necessarily go hand in hand. Especially in a digital TCG, there is little reason to have things go out of print, other than to try to protect value for collectors.

Thrawn
07-16-2015, 09:22 AM
Especially in a digital TCG, there is little reason to have things go out of print, other than to try to protect value for collectors.

Which is exactly the case here. Cory has stated multiple times how important it is to him to work to preserve the value of collections and have players be confident in that.

ossuary
07-16-2015, 09:29 AM
Note that the two things don't necessarily go hand in hand. Especially in a digital TCG, there is little reason to have things go out of print, other than to try to protect value for collectors.

Except that, where it makes sense, CZE has specifically set out to ape a physical TCG's distribution model - print runs, block rotation, etc. While they have an effectively infinite print run while available for purchase, sets WILL go out of print, and will stop being sold. That's by design, for the very reason you've identified - collection value.

There are a number of other factors as well (keeping standard to a small enough number of sets that it's not a completely daunting format for new players to get into), long term value is definitely on the list.

bwarner
07-16-2015, 09:38 AM
I just wanted to make it clear to Timlagor that these aren't always related events. Even if Hex has decided to make them happen at the same time, it isn't necessary that they be. This makes it a bit harder to predict what the impact on prices will be, since the two events are often separated.

Kramer
07-16-2015, 09:39 AM
For people who know about this sort of thing: do card prices go up or down when sets go out of print and stop being used for constructed?

When sets go out of print, generally the cards and packs go up. In Hex, they should go up since the cards will still be legal in PvE for life and their is a chance that constructed may see some type of legacy tournaments allowing all cards to be legal for that specific type of tournament but that has not been determined yet. No one knows for sure, but I am betting they go up.

Poetic
07-16-2015, 09:49 AM
It'll also depend on if the eternal formats see play.

The way its gone in the #1 tcg is stuff usually drops in value right before and after rotation as people sell their cards. Then they gradually go up and settle at high prices depending on how much play they see in the older formats.

Turtlewing
07-16-2015, 09:52 AM
Will there be cards that will never be reprinted in future sets?
If there are cards that will never be reprinted, when or will we be told what they are?


These questions are somewhat nonsensical IMO.

At any given time there will be many cards that have never been reprinted, and a card will remain "never reprinted" until the time it is reprinted, which may never come.

I can't imagine there being a "must never reprint list", but most cards probably will never be reprinted as the point of new sets is to add new cards and reprints are basicly a patch over the issues cause by staple cards rotating out.

Poetic
07-16-2015, 09:56 AM
Doubt there will be a no reprint list unless a certain card is broken and banned. The restricted list has cost wizards tons of money protecting old players collections.

Turtlewing
07-16-2015, 10:13 AM
Doubt there will be a no reprint list unless a certain card is broken and banned. The restricted list has cost wizards tons of money protecting old players collections.

Even banned cards could conceivably be reprinted. It's entirely possible for a future set to make a previously broken card reasonable.

But yeah, banned cards are less likely to see reprinting as needing to ban indicates an unforeseen problem with the card and reprinting something like that is asking for trouble.

Sparrow
07-16-2015, 11:18 AM
These questions are somewhat nonsensical IMO.

At any given time there will be many cards that have never been reprinted, and a card will remain "never reprinted" until the time it is reprinted, which may never come.

I can't imagine there being a "must never reprint list", but most cards probably will never be reprinted as the point of new sets is to add new cards and reprints are basicly a patch over the issues cause by staple cards rotating out.
Magic has 100's of cards that are on a publicly accessible list that will never be reprinted (special exceptions to that, I think). That's what I had in mind when I posed the question. If someone doesn't come from that environment the concept might seem unusual. I think it's possible Hex could be around for a long time to come, so at some point these types of questions become important. The answer to this one isn't as pressing as the others I listed. However it would be a little concerning to see a chase card from set 1 reprinted in set 5.

Oli
07-16-2015, 11:44 AM
I think it's very important for the health of the game that in a set after beta the staple-rares are reprinted in one set or another...

RamzaBehoulve
07-16-2015, 11:57 AM
I think it's very important for the health of the game that in a set after beta the staple-rares are reprinted in one set or another...

They most likely will. Especially Extinction.

Poetic
07-16-2015, 12:04 PM
Doubt it'd be that fast, things should probably skip a rotation before being reprinted. They can make new board wipes that are constructed playable. Or powerful troops to take the place of AoD or Vamp King. Doesn't have to be them.

purpenflurb
07-16-2015, 12:25 PM
Doubt it'd be that fast, things should probably skip a rotation before being reprinted. They can make new board wipes that are constructed playable. Or powerful troops to take the place of AoD or Vamp King. Doesn't have to be them.

I would hardly call angel of dawn and vampire king core, they can easily be replaced. But any other version of extinction is probably going to be more specialized, it has such a basic effect. Other cards with similar impact are burn, countermagic, chlorophyllia, and mastery of time. For all of those, you probably don't want to make a card that is flat out stronger, and making a card that provides a similar impact without being more situational or worse is difficult.

Dorkelvania
07-16-2015, 12:51 PM
It's nice that community members are stepping in to answer these questions, but it's crazy there's no official FAQ, highly visible on the home page, that explains these issues and answers common questions so close to the launch of Set 3. I've spent hundreds of hours and a fair amount of money playing this game, and I'd like to know how I'll be able to use the in-game collection of cards I've built over time.

As I said in another thread, there seems to be a widespread assumption that we're all veteran TCG players and know how this stuff works. I last played MtG, Jyhad, the original Star Wars TCG and Illuminati: NWO back in the mid-'90s, as a casual player. I've played Duels of the Planeswalkers a few times a couple of years ago. Like many other players, I have no idea how any of this stuff works. And while it's nice to get unofficial answers (thanks, Ossuary), something official would be better.

ossuary
07-16-2015, 02:19 PM
Something official would always be better, but that takes TIME, and right now, it's at an incredibly high premium.

I can tell you that things like a rulebook and a more comprehensive FAQ are in the works, and will be coming out at some point, but don't expect them until other, higher priority items are off the table. The reality is that a lot of these questions are still up in the air up until the point that they're released, because the game is still in development, and CZE is constantly looking for the best way to do things - which evolves and changes over time as development continues.

For a lot of these, the "most recent official answer, from a year or so ago" is the best ANYONE can do, including CZE themselves. :)

Shaqattaq
07-16-2015, 03:48 PM
Hi Sparrow. A player asked about Armies of Myth draft format a week or so ago in the forums and that was a great chance for us to see that some players may not be familiar with TCGs and how formats usually work inside that type of game. We have a piece staged for tomorrow's update that covers the limited format and why we refresh the format, how we organize sets.

There's a bit about Constructed in there too, but in general it's far too early to talk about "rotation" for Constructed tournament formats. If/when we do, we'll give you plenty of notice on the subject with a thorough explanation of how it works and the philosophies behind it. The answer to most of your questions is that it's too early in the game's lifecycle to comment on any of those. If you want to ask those questions again tomorrow in that Friday Update article thread, I welcome you (and all other players) to do so as we will try to answer them as best we can. Having all that information concentrated in one or two places is much better for players who aren't reading the website daily, and it allows us to go more in-depth on specific questions that would normally derail or distract from the main article.

Sparrow
07-16-2015, 04:02 PM
Thank you, Shaq! I was hoping to get the attention of an Orange. :)

Selanius
07-16-2015, 05:32 PM
Thanks for the update. I greatly hope that there are substantial constructed offerings before any cards rotate from the Constructed format. With the exception of community run tournaments and VIP Constructed there have not bee adequate opportunities to participate in Constructed at a high level of play and this is something that has disappointed me.

I look forward to the knowledge that rotation for Constructed is a ways off and the team doesn't have concrete plans for when constructed rotation will happen, but I greatly hope it will be after several big events have made our investment into cards for Constructed a good one.

ossuary
07-16-2015, 07:50 PM
Well, there's the upcoming 100K tournaments, for starters. Expect to get details on that in the relatively near future. I suspect we'll see a major uptick in constructed fire rates soon enough. :)

rjselzler
07-16-2015, 08:43 PM
For people who know about this sort of thing: do card prices go up or down when sets go out of print and stop being used for constructed?

Typically they drop in value as the standard players liquidate all of their playsets. They then will either stay low or steadily creep back up. As an example, I bought Snapcaster Mages in MtG right after that set rotated for $10 a piece. That turned out to be a decent speculation. YMMV

Edit: This advice assumes that there is an eternal format where said cards could be played. I'm sure that will be the case if/when we have a true standard format.

wolzarg
07-17-2015, 05:10 AM
Typically they drop in value as the standard players liquidate all of their playsets. They then will either stay low or steadily creep back up. As an example, I bought Snapcaster Mages in MtG right after that set rotated for $10 a piece. That turned out to be a decent speculation. YMMV

Edit: This advice assumes that there is an eternal format where said cards could be played. I'm sure that will be the case if/when we have a true standard format.
Snappys at 10 what a rippof i got mine at 4$ each too bad they are so worthless Kappa

Timlagor
07-17-2015, 05:35 AM
If someone's posting a bunch of questions in the new thread, I'd like to know if all cards will definitely remain eternally valid for PVE

Thoom
07-17-2015, 09:16 AM
If someone's posting a bunch of questions in the new thread, I'd like to know if all cards will definitely remain eternally valid for PVE

This is already not the case. Subtle Striker and Curse of Oblivion are banned in PVE. But if you're asking about set rotations, I think it's safe to assume that cards that have rotated out of standard constructed will still be playable in PVE.

Sparrow
07-17-2015, 09:53 AM
This is already not the case. Subtle Striker and Curse of Oblivion are banned in PVE. But if you're asking about set rotations, I think it's safe to assume that cards that have rotated out of standard constructed will still be playable in PVE.
I'm curious why it's safe to assume that.** At some point they will have to put a limit on card sets for specific dungeons. If they don't, PVE will become a degenerate format in 5 or 6 years, if not sooner. I guess, though, that there could always be at least one PVE instance where older sets are playable.

**Unless it's something CZE has stated, then it's not an assumption but a fact.

Darklight
07-17-2015, 09:59 AM
If they don't, PVE will become a degenerate format in 5 or 6 years, if not sooner.

Could they not have dungeons that require you to use cards form only specific sets? That way, even if the cards rotate 'out of print' for competitive play, it keeps a market open for the older cards. Special, set specific dungeons seems like a decent idea as long a not ALL dungeons are set specific.

Yoss
07-17-2015, 10:00 AM
I'm curious why it's safe to assume that.** At some point they will have to put a limit on card sets for specific dungeons. If they don't, PVE will become a degenerate format in 5 or 6 years, if not sooner. I guess, though, that there could always be at least one PVE instance where older sets are playable.

**Unless it's something CZE has stated, then it's not an assumption but a fact.
I doubt they've thought about it too much yet. Off the top of my head, maybe they could make new PvE releases only use the currently in print PvP (and PvE) cards for the first month, then allow everything after that?

Aradon
07-17-2015, 10:05 AM
Yeah, I've given the PvE rotation a bit of thought. I feel like there's a lot of room to compromise. I don't think that 'All cards legal forever' is feasible, even if you have some small, specific ban lists (like how Subtle Striker directly impacts the theme of the Arena). You'll either need an ever-growing ban list to keep PvE in line, or have to rotate stuff out.

Compromises I see possible are to have a large list of dungeons, with varying set legality like Darklight's suggestion, or several different modes that allow for tighter or lighter restraints, for various reward levels. For example, 'Hard Mode' was pitched earlier as possibly using a singleton restriction. An alternative would be restricting to the last two blocks, or such.

It could end up being a system where there are various deckbuilding checkboxes, and for each restriction you can tick off, you get a higher roll on the loot table, etc.

Overall, though, I don't believe we can have a 100% legal card pool for PvE over sustained periods. It'll become too much. Nobody wants raids to be turn 1 or 2 kills or lose, but if there aren't restrictions, then the bosses will either be pushovers to these combo decks and have their loot become trivial or they'll be inaccessible to anyone not playing 2-turn kills, which would be unfortunate form a design perspective.

Sparrow
07-17-2015, 10:07 AM
I doubt they've thought about it too much yet. Off the top of my head, maybe they could make new PvE releases only use the currently in print PvP (and PvE) cards for the first month, then allow everything after that?
I think that sounds most practical from a dungeon design standpoint and it allows players to use all their cards, everywhere, eventually.

I'm not sure what the right timing would be, though. For example, if they have a dungeon designed for a specific block (anticipating future sets in the block being used in the dungeon), then maybe once the block is no longer the most current, the dungeon could open to older blocks as well. Or players could unlock features in the dungeons allowing older sets to be introduced. A lot of ways to do it.

Edit: A lot of other good ideas that posted while I was writing this.

Yoss
07-17-2015, 10:17 AM
I love the idea of adding Set restrictions to the list of proposed Hard Modes. And I still really, really, really, hope they both accept and prioritize the Hard Modes idea. It's a mountain of free content generation for them on every piece of PvE they'll ever release. It's basically just a multiplier on the replay value of all the content. Instead of just 1 mode to beat, you have N permutations to beat.

Aradon
07-17-2015, 10:30 AM
Well, on the flip side of 'hard mode,' there's been a lot of complaining in WoW about how several different tiers of the same content is aggravatingly repetitive, and that players felt like they were getting less content because it was repackaged and reused. They expected 5 pieces of content, for example, and got 2 pieces, with several ways to replay it.

Even if it doesn't work out that way in practice (which is wholly up to CZE), it could engender similar feelings.

ossuary
07-17-2015, 10:37 AM
We already know that the current plan for mercenaries is that you can use a mercenary "sideboard" deck once per dungeon, until you clear the dungeon, at which point you can use your mercenary deck as often as you want in that dungeon, including for the whole runthrough.

I think it would be pretty logical to have some dungeons have restricted cardlists that shift as well - you start out only being able to use current block PVP plus all PVE cards, until you can successfully beat the dungeon that way, then you unlock open farming mode for the dungeon - just like you can now use your mercenary as much as you want, all PVP cards are legal to use as well. It would be a pretty simple fix, that would still allow older players to play around with the new challenge of a dungeon when it's first released, without having newer players suffer from lack of powerful cards and combos.

Turtlewing
07-17-2015, 10:59 AM
I'm curious why it's safe to assume that.** At some point they will have to put a limit on card sets for specific dungeons. If they don't, PVE will become a degenerate format in 5 or 6 years, if not sooner. I guess, though, that there could always be at least one PVE instance where older sets are playable.

**Unless it's something CZE has stated, then it's not an assumption but a fact.

They don't have to do it by set, they could ban specific cards from specific dungeons.

The vast majority of cards don't pose problems even in eternal formats, and the PvE design space allows for dungeons to be designed that would not be vulnerable to many of the common degenerate combo types so a given combo is likley to not be a problem in all dungeons. For example, you might not need to worry about a "Worldgorger Dragon infinite mana" combo in dungeons where a couple of the opponents have a "when a troop enters the graveyard void it instead" champion power.

Turtlewing
07-17-2015, 11:14 AM
We already know that the current plan for mercenaries is that you can use a mercenary "sideboard" deck once per dungeon, until you clear the dungeon, at which point you can use your mercenary deck as often as you want in that dungeon, including for the whole runthrough.

I think it would be pretty logical to have some dungeons have restricted cardlists that shift as well - you start out only being able to use current block PVP plus all PVE cards, until you can successfully beat the dungeon that way, then you unlock open farming mode for the dungeon - just like you can now use your mercenary as much as you want, all PVP cards are legal to use as well. It would be a pretty simple fix, that would still allow older players to play around with the new challenge of a dungeon when it's first released, without having newer players suffer from lack of powerful cards and combos.

Good concept, but I think the dungeon's restricted mode would have to specify the block(s), not take "current block" as otherwise an older dungeon might be trivialized by something in the current block that wasn't possible when the dungeon was designed.

Though, Again I think per card bans would probably cover the most bases with the least "collateral damage". It can scale up to banning entire sets/blocks, but Ideally it should only be necessary to ban cards rarely.

Sparrow
07-17-2015, 11:27 AM
I dunno. It seems that if sets don't rotate out of PVE then we'll end up with either power creep or new sets being released that don't offer better alternatives than past sets. I'll be curious to see where things are five years down the road, because I don't think there's an answer right now.

Thoom
07-17-2015, 11:35 AM
Good concept, but I think the dungeon's restricted mode would have to specify the block(s), not take "current block" as otherwise an older dungeon might be trivialized by something in the current block that wasn't possible when the dungeon was designed.

If you specify the block, then you pretty much completely lock out all players who started playing after that block went out of print. I think PVE pretty much has to be an eternal format.

Cards are already more powerful/broken in PVE by default because of equipment, so they can use equipment plus a small ban list as a knob for tuning things. We also don't know how the power level granted by leveling up your PVE hero will interact with things, so it's possible that even a very broken PVP deck will only be mediocre in PVE unless augmented with equipment and a powerful hero.

ossuary
07-17-2015, 11:48 AM
Which is why I specific current block for new dungeons. As in, when they're released, they're specifically balanced to be a fair challenge with cards that are currently available, then for those older player or players with a large collection, once you beat them once in normal, current block mode, you can use whatever cards you want (still subject to normal ban lists, of course).

Once a dungeon's block of cards are no longer the current block, that dungeon is considered older content as well, and is then open to the block it was released with and forward until you beat it once, at which point it unlocks as normal. It seems like a pretty straightforward but powerful solution to me.

Thoom
07-17-2015, 12:04 PM
I hope Hex doesn't take the route of most other MMOs in aggressively obsoleting older PVE content.

nicosharp
07-17-2015, 12:09 PM
I hope Hex doesn't take the route of most other MMOs in aggressively obsoleting older PVE content.
I don't think the same applies at all to HEX
However...
Players will create aggressive demands for new content, and therefore will be directly effecting the need for older PvE Content to be played.

New Content - New Loot
Old Content - Old Loot

The solution to the above, would be to have tables rotate slightly, to make some new loot drops move into old content. However, that is not a progressive solution for the playerbase.

Yoss
07-17-2015, 02:01 PM
Well, on the flip side of 'hard mode,' there's been a lot of complaining in WoW about how several different tiers of the same content is aggravatingly repetitive, and that players felt like they were getting less content because it was repackaged and reused. They expected 5 pieces of content, for example, and got 2 pieces, with several ways to replay it.

Even if it doesn't work out that way in practice (which is wholly up to CZE), it could engender similar feelings.

That's a reasonable fear. If HXE used Hard Modes as a crutch to avoid publishing as much content, then I would not support the idea. However, in pushing for the Hard Modes idea, I am assuming some things.

1. The only time that Hard Mode "content" would displace real content would be during the initial build of the Hard Mode infrastructure. Thereafter, the Hard Modes are just automatically built in to new content releases.

2. HXE will continue to release PvE content on the same schedule as they would if Hard Modes didn't exist.


Given those, I think having Hard Modes is a great idea. Sure Frost Ring has become a grind for most people at this point. Wouldn't you rather have the grind with some added variety, even if it's still a grind?

Dorkelvania
07-19-2015, 09:40 AM
Hi Sparrow. A player asked about Armies of Myth draft format a week or so ago in the forums and that was a great chance for us to see that some players may not be familiar with TCGs and how formats usually work inside that type of game. We have a piece staged for tomorrow's update that covers the limited format and why we refresh the format, how we organize sets.

There's a bit about Constructed in there too, but in general it's far too early to talk about "rotation" for Constructed tournament formats. If/when we do, we'll give you plenty of notice on the subject with a thorough explanation of how it works and the philosophies behind it. The answer to most of your questions is that it's too early in the game's lifecycle to comment on any of those. If you want to ask those questions again tomorrow in that Friday Update article thread, I welcome you (and all other players) to do so as we will try to answer them as best we can. Having all that information concentrated in one or two places is much better for players who aren't reading the website daily, and it allows us to go more in-depth on specific questions that would normally derail or distract from the main article.

Late with my reply b/c of crazy work stuff, but thank you so much for doing this!