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Shaqattaq
07-17-2015, 12:30 PM
With this upcoming Armies of Myth release, the draft and limited format supported by the game will change to all Armies of Myth packs. Players familiar with Trading Card Games likely expected this, but if this is your first run of TCGs, we wanted to formally announce this and talk a little bit about how the game’s releases are structured. So, let’s start off by outlining why we release new sets.

https://www.hextcg.com/hex-update-freshen-up/

Showsni
07-17-2015, 12:37 PM
It's complement, not compliment. :P

Thoom
07-17-2015, 12:42 PM
A couple questions:

1. Will current VIP members get all of their future tickets as a lump sum of non-expiring tickets with the patch?

2. Would Hex ever consider allowing 40 card decks in casual challenge-a-friend matches so that we can draft old formats unofficially without prize support, just for fun?

superdax
07-17-2015, 12:50 PM
1- you explained Set 1-2 cards but not set 1-2 boosters...... NO mention of 221 format ever coming back
2- VIP: 8$ a month. No clear indication of the use for Plat (but of what i read, it will be a set up that you do on your website so that would be no, but a clear statement would be appreciated
3- Can't wait for the patch :)

Eetabee
07-17-2015, 01:01 PM
Does the new VIP come with the patch? Just wondering if I'll be able to participate in the upcoming weekend or not.

Vorpal
07-17-2015, 01:04 PM
Wild west format confirmed.

nicosharp
07-17-2015, 01:04 PM
I think a little more needs to be said about the future of Set1 and Set2

When are Set1 and Set2 packs planned to rotate out of the store?

What happens to staples at that point when Set1 and Set2 packs can no longer be purchased?

How long will Set1 and Set2 be considered part of the "Constructed" format? Indefinitely? Or until Set X?



When you can't get "Murder" anymore, because the playerbase has grown to a point that they are only selling for 2k plat for a single common. Do you then create the double-murder or consider reprinting?
Not sure what the longterm gameplan is if the community grows down the road by such a huge number that the old supply that is no longer available prevents competitive players from being able pay the entry fees.
It would be an awesome problem to have, but some of us think really long-term and large scale...

Final Question - What is the communication plan for new players when this game is considered "retail" and they never had limited access to set1 and set2?

Lukezors
07-17-2015, 01:09 PM
When you can't get "Murder" anymore, because the playerbase has grown to a point that they are only selling for 2k plat for a single common. Do you then create the double-murder or consider reprinting?
Not sure what the longterm gameplan is if the community grows down the road by such a huge number that the old supply that is no longer available prevents competitive players from being able pay the entry fees.
It would be an awesome problem to have, but some of us think really long-term and large scale...


I personally hope to see reprints of common staples with new art in future sets.

Shaqattaq
07-17-2015, 01:10 PM
It's complement, not compliment. :P

Thanks!


A couple questions:

1. Will current VIP members get all of their future tickets as a lump sum of non-expiring tickets with the patch?

2. Would Hex ever consider allowing 40 card decks in casual challenge-a-friend matches so that we can draft old formats unofficially without prize support, just for fun?

1 - The VIP FAQ that's coming soon will outline everything.

2 - That seems unlikely.


1- you explained Set 1-2 cards but not set 1-2 boosters...... NO mention of 221 format ever coming back
2- VIP: 8$ a month. No clear indication of the use for Plat (but of what i read, it will be a set up that you do on your website so that would be no, but a clear statement would be appreciated
3- Can't wait for the patch :)

1 - It's possible Chapter 1 draft could come back for some special event, but there's no actionable plan for us to do this in the near future. I recommend revisiting the "Armies of Myth in Limited" section of the article for an explanation on why the format is changing.

2- The VIP FAQ that's coming soon will outline everything.

3- Nor can we! =D

Khendral
07-17-2015, 01:11 PM
What are the plans for Release Celebration? Have it next weekend along with VIP tournaments, giving Release Celebration cards to VIP players as well (both for participating and going 4-0)?

(assuming everything goes according to plan and we have a huge, awesome patch on Tuesday)

Lukezors
07-17-2015, 01:11 PM
Official question:

Does this mean release weekend will be happening at the same time as VIP or Celebration?

rstrbn
07-17-2015, 01:11 PM
I have an AoM equipment question (since I saw questions might be answered here); with the inclusion of the chest opening and several new pieces of equipment, are we getting our KS equipment rewards with the AoM patch? The test server included the Pack Raptor equipment as well, which if they are getting their equipment, then I would wonder if the KS backers that are supposed to get that equipment would, or are we getting our next batch of KS rewards later? Just curious if we are getting those various KS rewards with the patch :).

- I had not seen this question asked or answered previously, so thought I would toss it out there, even if it is unrelated to the article really :p.

Edit: Thank you for your response below, it is appreciated :)

Shaqattaq
07-17-2015, 01:22 PM
I think a little more needs to be said about the future of Set1 and Set2

When are Set1 and Set2 packs planned to rotate out of the store?

What happens to staples at that point when Set1 and Set2 packs can no longer be purchased?

How long will Set1 and Set2 be considered part of the "Constructed" format? Indefinitely? Or until Set X?

When you can't get "Murder" anymore, because the playerbase has grown to a point that they are only selling for 2k plat for a single common. Do you then create the double-murder or consider reprinting?
Not sure what the longterm gameplan is if the community grows down the road by such a huge number that the old supply that is no longer available prevents competitive players from being able pay the entry fees.
It would be an awesome problem to have, but some of us think really long-term and large scale...

Final Question - What is the communication plan for new players when this game is considered "retail" and they never had limited access to set1 and set2?

It's far too early in HEX's existence to answer most of these questions. If/when there is some sort of "rotation," we'll outline exactly how it works far, far in advance and the reasoning behind it. As for bringing cards into a format or having them leave for game experience reasons, you can look at the general history of TCGs in reprinting cards as something that will likely happen in HEX as it happens in pretty much every other game. I also don't foresee a future where Murder is selling for 2k platinum. As for what players will do when they enter into the game and there's a non-chapter 1 limited format, I guess they'll play it and hopefully enjoy the experience. I don't see their enjoyment of that format being diminished because they didn't experience previous formats before it. At least, that's not how it has historically played out with TCGs.

Shaqattaq
07-17-2015, 01:31 PM
Release Celebration/VIP Questions: That'll likely be part of the Monday update on the Armies of Myth release.


I have an AoM equipment question (since I saw questions might be answered here); with the inclusion of the chest opening and several new pieces of equipment, are we getting our KS equipment rewards with the AoM patch? The test server included the Pack Raptor equipment as well, which if they are getting their equipment, then I would wonder if the KS backers that are supposed to get that equipment would, or are we getting our next batch of KS rewards later? Just curious if we are getting those various KS rewards with the patch :).

- I had not seen this question asked or answered previously, so thought I would toss it out there, even if it is unrelated to the article really :p.

If a backer is slated to receive a specific piece of equipment due to Kickstarter rewards, like your example of Pack Raptor, backers will receive that item either upon the patch's release or shortly after. For backers who are owed a random X items from the equipment pool, we won't be handing out those items at this time and will wait for a time in the future when the pool of equipment to pull from is larger.

Yoss
07-17-2015, 01:32 PM
2. Would Hex ever consider allowing 40 card decks in casual challenge-a-friend matches so that we can draft old formats unofficially without prize support, just for fun?

2 - That seems unlikely.

By logical extension, does this mean that we are never going to see a true Sandbox capability like Cory mused about during KS? (Sandbox means users can, for casual play, tweak around with game parameters to make unique modes. Things like higher or lower starting health, alternate mulligan rules, alternate deck building rules, and so on, anything one might dream up for "kitchen table" TCG variants.)

EDIT:
Obviously, this would take a fair bit of engineering time, so we wouldn't be expecting it any time soon. The question is whether this is on the road map for "some day" implementation.

Thoom
07-17-2015, 01:34 PM
2 - That seems unlikely.

That's disappointing. I think something that a lot of players haven't considered thus far is that being a digital game doesn't only open up new design space. It can also act as DRM that limits what we can do with the cards we've paid for.

Yoss
07-17-2015, 01:36 PM
something that a lot of players haven't considered thus far is that being a digital game doesn't only open up new design space. It can also act as DRM that limits what we can do with the cards we've paid for.

FWIW, we've had "HexTCG Editor" (like "map editor" in some Blizzard RTS games) on our requested features list (link in my sig) for quite a long time. I really hope Hex will give us something like that some day.

Gorgol
07-17-2015, 01:38 PM
2 - That seems unlikely.


That makes me sad :(

Shaqattaq
07-17-2015, 01:45 PM
2. Would Hex ever consider allowing 40 card decks in casual challenge-a-friend matches so that we can draft old formats unofficially without prize support, just for fun?

When initially asked, I pictured it as something we supported on our end with hyper-specific parameters and how that would poorly scale. I guess now that people have brought up the different ways that this could be achieved, it seems possible. We certainly aren't looking to put "DRM" on your cards. If anything, every choice we've made in this game with the freedom that you are allowed points to the contrary.

nicosharp
07-17-2015, 01:47 PM
It's far too early in HEX's existence to answer most of these questions. If/when there is some sort of "rotation," we'll outline exactly how it works far, far in advance and the reasoning behind it. As for bringing cards into a format or having them leave for game experience reasons, you can look at the general history of TCGs in reprinting cards as something that will likely happen in HEX as it happens in pretty much every other game. I also don't foresee a future where Murder is selling for 2k platinum. As for what players will do when they enter into the game and there's a non-chapter 1 limited format, I guess they'll play it and hopefully enjoy the experience. I don't see their enjoyment of that format being diminished because they didn't experience previous formats before it. At least, that's not how it has historically played out with TCGs.
It's fair since we benchmark everything in HEX to paper TCG's.
Maybe I just thought with this being a forward-thinking progressive digital TCG - some of these answers would differ.
Hopefully Murder will never be 2K - but I do think there will be many early adopters a bit disappointed in their inability to capitalize on future players due to old cards that would never be reprinted. I almost see less a point of getting rid of any set packs from the store, and never reprinting. Seems to be more conducive to a "Digital" product. The only issue here, is you need generic on cost cards to make a cohesive playable limited experience. Eventually ideas will run dry on on-curve powerlevel cards, and staples will need to be revisited.

It seems the paper TCG limited experience kind of mucks up the potential of a cleaner flow a digital TCG could create. At least new code would not be necessary :)

Thoom
07-17-2015, 01:48 PM
When initially asked, I pictured it as something we supported on our end with hyper-specific parameters and how that would poorly scale. I guess now that people have brought up the different ways that this could be achieved, it seems possible. We certainly aren't looking to put "DRM" on your cards. If anything, every choice we've made in this game with the freedom that you are allowed points to the contrary.

That's more in line with what I was expecting. I have pretty much total faith in HexEnt doing right by the players. Don't need the feature this very instant, but I'm glad to hear it's not completely off the table either.

Shaqattaq
07-17-2015, 02:01 PM
It's fair since we benchmark everything in HEX to paper TCG's.
Maybe I just thought with this being a forward-thinking progressive digital TCG - some of these answers would differ.
Hopefully Murder will never be 2K - but I do think there will be many early adopters a bit disappointed in their inability to capitalize on future players due to old cards that would never be reprinted. I almost see less a point of getting rid of any set packs from the store, and never reprinting. Seems to be more conducive to a "Digital" product. The only issue here, is you need generic on cost cards to make a cohesive playable limited experience. Eventually ideas will run dry on on-curve powerlevel cards, and staples will need to be revisited.

It seems the paper TCG limited experience kind of mucks up the potential of a cleaner flow a digital TCG could create. At least new code would not be necessary :)

I'm not quite sure how to read this nor the individual point you're trying to make. But, as far as reintroducing cards to formats/packs-- yes, there's a balance in play for scarcity of the old card vs the availability of the new card. We want collections to have value and have experience in this space. Remember that when a card is reintroduced to a format, it also gains new-found utility so demand for that card increases as well. Also, again, this is far too early in the game's lifecycle to talk about in any defined, pre-destined way so I wouldn't take anything in discussing these theoretical futures as 100% cold hard fact unless stated otherwise.

rjselzler
07-17-2015, 02:05 PM
When initially asked, I pictured it as something we supported on our end with hyper-specific parameters and how that would poorly scale. I guess now that people have brought up the different ways that this could be achieved, it seems possible. We certainly aren't looking to put "DRM" on your cards. If anything, every choice we've made in this game with the freedom that you are allowed points to the contrary.

This is just one reason why HXE is a stellar company: they listen to players and come back and modify their responses based on community feedback, even if it is just to clarify that they misunderstood. Takes a big man to do that. Just wanted to send some karma Shaq's way. Have a restful weekend, man. : )

Thoom
07-17-2015, 02:06 PM
I would speculate that a staple card like Murder is way more likely to be reprinted than a specific Rare/Legendary like Angel of Dawn or Reese (though that doesn't exclude the possibility of those being reprinted as well).

One might also speculate that a reprint of a card will probably have different art from the original print, making the original still a limited item. For example, an Arabian Nights mountain (http://shop.tcgplayer.com/magic/arabian-nights/mountain-(arabian-nights)?partner=mtgtcg) in MTG goes for $40-80, despite being mechanically no different than a Mountain you pull out of a (whatever the current set is) pack today.

Shaqattaq
07-17-2015, 02:13 PM
I want to be clear to anybody reading this thread-- we are not announcing anything about reprinting. We are not stating anything to be taken as rule on some theoretical reprinting policy. Players are free to discuss this topic as they are anything else regarding HEX, but what is being talked about in the original article is why the limited format changes and how we organize sets.

Shaqattaq
07-17-2015, 02:18 PM
This is just one reason why HXE is a stellar company: they listen to players and come back and modify their responses based on community feedback, even if it is just to clarify that they misunderstood. Takes a big man to do that. Just wanted to send some karma Shaq's way. Have a restful weekend, man. : )

Thanks. We try to be as accessible and answer as many questions as possible. Thanks to Kickstarter, we're all part of the development process: devs and players together. The digital environment is difficult for conversation-- it can be hard to extract the exact context of someone's point or question, or in the player's case the context of an answer from one of us devs. In being open and accessible, small hiccups or misunderstandings are going to take place on both ends, and we'll do our best to clear anything up.

We're also always open to player suggestions. Ultimately, our goal is to make the game that the players want so if people have amazing ideas that they want to offer for HEX, we're going to consider them seriously. Players and feedback have certainly already shaped HEX even in these early stages.

Voormas
07-17-2015, 02:27 PM
Cards can be balanced in all kinds of ways beyond just the resource cost / rarity; threshold (Starving Lich), deckbuilding restrictions (Jank Bot), etc

If we DID get Double Murder how do you you think Ben might pull it off :cool:

Yoss
07-17-2015, 02:32 PM
When initially asked, I pictured it as something we supported on our end with hyper-specific parameters and how that would poorly scale. I guess now that people have brought up the different ways that this could be achieved, it seems possible. We certainly aren't looking to put "DRM" on your cards. If anything, every choice we've made in this game with the freedom that you are allowed points to the contrary.

As Thoom said, it's good to know that "they're your cards, have fun with them how you like" is still on the table as a design goal.

Rycajo
07-17-2015, 02:40 PM
When initially asked, I pictured it as something we supported on our end with hyper-specific parameters and how that would poorly scale. I guess now that people have brought up the different ways that this could be achieved, it seems possible. We certainly aren't looking to put "DRM" on your cards. If anything, every choice we've made in this game with the freedom that you are allowed points to the contrary.

In the spirit of not placing DRM on the product we have purchased from CZE, I sure hope we have User-designed limited at some point. I would love to be able to setup a private draft queue, accessible by password/invite only, where I provide all of the packs and prizes. If my group of friends wants to play 1-1-1, no reason to force us to play the current set.

I for one am against the removal of limited queues. I understand people claim this will increase queue times, but that is only true if people are dead-set on a certain format and you are in the less popular format. What happens now with our queue system? 3 people are in the competitive draft queue and 3 people in the swiss draft queue. If 2 more people join the competitive queue, there is a decent chance a few people will switch over from the swiss queue. If people want something to fire, they will move into the more popular queue.

If we couldn't see how many people were in a queue, I agree that waiting times would increase. However, I think more queues could actually reduce wait times. As it is now, if the 1-1-1 queue was open now, I think we would increase the number of drafts per day because people would have a greater variety of formats to play (and people seem to like 1-1-1 better than 2-2-1) and would be more apt to play more Hex. Right now my options are: Play 2-2-1 draft, or do not draft. Thus, as we have read on this board and in reddit threads, people are talking about playing other games while waiting for the new format. In this case, in my opinion, reducing the number of queues is not reducing the wait time for the queues. Rather than allow the current player base to play the format that is most popular, the current practice of removing past formats simply forces players to play Hex format X, or use their free time on something else.

bootlace
07-17-2015, 02:40 PM
Just wanted to pop in and say Shaqattaq is da man for not shying away from answering these very difficult and uncertain questions (although I heard he's a Clippers fan and that's just not cool :P ).

Also sending all my positive ki energy towards the whole team in this final stretch of Set 3 development/testing (ala Goku spirit bomb in DBZ).

Thoom
07-17-2015, 02:49 PM
If we DID get Double Murder how do you you think Ben might pull it off :cool:

Double Murder Suicide. Kill 2 of your opponent's troops, then lose the game. ;)

Salverus
07-17-2015, 02:54 PM
I only hope that the release tournament for set 3 starts before next weekend already. Or maybe if that's the case they can delay the convocation a week as well?
because I don't want to miss both, how can I enjoy my own holiday knowing I miss all the cool stuff?

Shaqattaq
07-17-2015, 02:57 PM
As Thoom said, it's good to know that "they're your cards, have fun with them how you like" is still on the table as a design goal.

Not just on the table, but the philosophy of how we approach in-game programs.


Just wanted to pop in and say Shaqattaq is da man for not shying away from answering these very difficult and uncertain questions (although I heard he's a Clippers fan and that's just not cool :P ).

Also sending all my positive ki energy towards the whole team in this final stretch of Set 3 development/testing (ala Goku spirit bomb in DBZ).

Thanks! Ultimately, we want to be upfront with you since we're all in making HEX together. It's only natural that players want as much information as possible for the game that they made happen and love. If players are ever wondering what we'd do in the future, I feel like the general space they can start at is that we'll do what's best by the players.

I love Dragonball Z deeply. If you want to know what a dork I am, back in high school my senior "ad" in the back of the yearbook had Vegeta in it >_> The Toei Animation whimsical action/adventure shows are my favorite animes. My yearbook ad did not feature Chris Paul da Point God, but if it could I would go back in time and slip him in.

Tazelbain
07-17-2015, 03:00 PM
Letting us keep 2-2-1 would be the "freedom" thing to do. Sure it probably won't get played much for a few months. But eventual people will enjoy having options once the set 03 shiny wears off.

bootlace
07-17-2015, 03:37 PM
I love Dragonball Z deeply. If you want to know what a dork I am, back in high school my senior "ad" in the back of the yearbook had Vegeta in it >_> The Toei Animation whimsical action/adventure shows are my favorite animes.
I was a middle-schooler living in Japan in the mid to late 90s when it was on air, didn't understand the language but that didn't stop me from being glued to the TV...can't believe it's back on air with new episodes now after all those years...(and yes +1 to One Piece which is probably even better).


Chris Paul da Point God

*cough* Steph Curry *cough*

fabriazp
07-17-2015, 03:56 PM
Will the VIP be stackable? If i buy 2 months separately will that grant me 2 booster per week (for 4 weeks in a row) and 2 tickets for VIP tourney in the same month?

Timlagor
07-17-2015, 04:08 PM
Will all cards always remain legal for PVE? (barring specific bans like Subtle Thingummy)


I'd like to see old packs still have a format for limitted.
I don't really see much reason to stop selling the older packs ever (though the interface would need some work to support the bigger array). Print runs seem the primary concern for physical TCGs. The only other issue would be deciding that some cards are just too powerful (in which case they should really be fixed: I don't see errata for PVP cards as a big problem though obviously something to be done as sparingly as possible -there would be some people upset to have the OP cards they paid for nerfed but if you establish a willingness to do so they will know the risk when they buy ...still better than the alternative imo.

OutlandishMatt
07-17-2015, 04:21 PM
We’ve read some player suggestions that players should still be able to draft the Destiny, Destiny, Shards format. We’re moving on to Armies to refresh that format and make the queue times both manageable and attractive to players...

For Gauntlet, the format is Armies of Myth for many of the same reasons above.


I want to address these two things that could be hindering Gauntlet.


We’re moving on to Armies to refresh that format...

Shouldn't that be our choice? I don't know about you but not that many sealed Set 1 & 2 tournaments have fired. I know several people that love sealed but about the only time they fire was for VIP which has not been available for purchase for quite some time. If a user wants to play Set 1 & 2 and it's currently being sold in the store AND it's supported in constructed, WHY CAN THEY NOT PLAY IT IN SEALED?!


...and make the queue times both manageable and attractive to players.

This has no bearing on Gauntlet format. Gauntlet is supposed to be a collective pool of players, no matter what sets they are playing. So why can a player start a Set 3 Gauntlet now, wait 5 years, and play against people that are playing with Sets 14+ but players cannot play Set 3 against Set 1&2?

Also, by restricting the Gauntlet to just Set 3 you're limiting the player pool. As far as I'm aware you're not limiting constructed queues to just Set 3 so why is Gauntlet limited? Everyone's in the same pool! Once again, in 5 years Set 14+ sealed decks won't be limited to just play against Set 14+ decks so why restrict it now?!

Whatever sets are legal in the current constructed environment should also be legal in Gauntlet. There should be 2 options available when queuing for Gauntlet: A) 3 packs Set 1 & 3 packs Set 2 or B) 6 packs Set 3. Then once Set 4 is released, option B will change to 3 packs Set 3 & 3 packs Set 4. Then when Set 5 is released option A is replaced with 6 packs of Set 5.

Timlagor
07-17-2015, 04:27 PM
Someone pointed out that there will be an optimal combination of packs for Gauntlet and that it is likely to be found fairly quickly if people can choose. once that happens you are either playing at a disadvantage or playing the same as everyone else anyway. The legacy gauntlets are not much of an issue as you can only do it once per account and only by not playing in gauntlet having started one so it will really only happen in any significant way when they release a new set and even then not very much.

I would like some 'Chapter 1' format to be around though and Gauntlet would make sense as somewhere to have it.

Deathlock
07-17-2015, 04:45 PM
I would like 2-2-1 draft tourneys to remain in the game until set 4 release at least. In real-world tcg's I can bring any packs I want and play with my friends or some people from local store, but I can't do it in HEX unfortunately. Freedom of choice is a good thing, I believe.

Thoom
07-17-2015, 04:54 PM
I don't really see much reason to stop selling the older packs ever (though the interface would need some work to support the bigger array).

This is where "protecting the value of our collections" comes in to play and bumps heads with just wanting to enjoy the awesome cards. Both are positives for players, just... different sets of players. And since this is a TCG rather than an LCG, collection value trumps wide accessibility after a certain point.

Yoss
07-17-2015, 05:16 PM
I want to address these two things that could be hindering Gauntlet.



Shouldn't that be our choice? I don't know about you but not that many sealed Set 1 & 2 tournaments have fired. I know several people that love sealed but about the only time they fire was for VIP which has not been available for purchase for quite some time. If a user wants to play Set 1 & 2 and it's currently being sold in the store AND it's supported in constructed, WHY CAN THEY NOT PLAY IT IN SEALED?!



This has no bearing on Gauntlet format. Gauntlet is supposed to be a collective pool of players, no matter what sets they are playing. So why can a player start a Set 3 Gauntlet now, wait 5 years, and play against people that are playing with Sets 14+ but players cannot play Set 3 against Set 1&2?

Also, by restricting the Gauntlet to just Set 3 you're limiting the player pool. As far as I'm aware you're not limiting constructed queues to just Set 3 so why is Gauntlet limited? Everyone's in the same pool! Once again, in 5 years Set 14+ sealed decks won't be limited to just play against Set 14+ decks so why restrict it now?!

Whatever sets are legal in the current constructed environment should also be legal in Gauntlet. There should be 2 options available when queuing for Gauntlet: A) 3 packs Set 1 & 3 packs Set 2 or B) 6 packs Set 3. Then once Set 4 is released, option B will change to 3 packs Set 3 & 3 packs Set 4. Then when Set 5 is released option A is replaced with 6 packs of Set 5.

When I am bringing Chapter 2 packs, I do not want to play against Chapter 1 packs. If you want a separate Gauntlet pool for Chapter 1, I will not argue against it, but do not pollute the Chapter 2 pool please. And, if we allow multiple pools, then there's no longer need to allow bleed overs (where an old set can be held over to a new chapter); just leave every entry where it was when it joined.

nicosharp
07-17-2015, 05:23 PM
When I am bringing Chapter 2 packs, I do not want to play against Chapter 1 packs. If you want a separate Gauntlet pool for Chapter 1, I will not argue against it, but do not pollute the Chapter 2 pool please. And, if we allow multiple pools, then there's no longer need to allow bleed overs (where an old set can be held over to a new chapter); just leave every entry where it was when it joined.
It won't happen, I think some people just were missing the point of why "relic" gauntlet pools could exist.

Also thanks for your responses Shaq. I didn't really have any point on my second post, just some self-realizations.

OutlandishMatt
07-17-2015, 05:57 PM
When I am bringing Chapter 2 packs, I do not want to play against Chapter 1 packs. If you want a separate Gauntlet pool for Chapter 1, I will not argue against it, but do not pollute the Chapter 2 pool please. And, if we allow multiple pools, then there's no longer need to allow bleed overs (where an old set can be held over to a new chapter); just leave every entry where it was when it joined.

You realize that once Set 4 comes out you'll be playing against people that could have opened 6 packs of Set 3 vs your 3 packs of Set 3 and 3 packs of Set 4? You realize your argument for wanting an X only pool is null once the next set comes out? And you'll have to deal with it then but for some odd reason you do not want to deal with it now.

We allow multiple pools because it's the currently being sold in the store. If they sell A,B,C packs in the store, I should be able to use A,B,C cards and packs in constructed, draft, and sealed play otherwise it can be misleading to the consumer. "Hey, I've bought the packs out of the store but I see I can't use them for anything but to open. WTF?!"

OutlandishMatt
07-17-2015, 06:00 PM
It won't happen, I think some people just were missing the point of why "relic" gauntlet pools could exist.

I think some people are missing the point of if "relic" gauntlet can exist in X months when Set 4 comes out why can it not exist now.

Also, let's not talk like Set 1 & 2 are relic. There's probably thousands of packs if not tens of thousands of packs of Set 1 & Set 2 floating around that will become useless for draft and sealed play once Set 3 comes out. Am I the only one that sees that to be a bad thing for people that have those packs?

The problem is no one wants to address the elephant in the room. This decision is most likely made to always sell the current set.

nicosharp
07-17-2015, 06:06 PM
I think some people are missing the point of if they can exist in X months when Set 4 comes out why can they not exist now. Also, let's not talk like Set 1 & 2 are relic. There's probably thousands of packs if not tens of thousands of packs of Set 1 & Set 2 floating around that will become useless for draft and sealed play once Set 3 comes out. Am I the only one that sees that to be a bad thing for people that have those packs?
I totally agree with you about removing set1 and set2 packs from limited play.. They will have to address that at some point, cause there will be unhappy customers.

However, the Gauntlet thing is just not making sense to me.
How can you quantify having a few players with spill-over miss-match packs, because they never finished a run before a new set launched...
To having all players being provided the choice to enter with whatever packs they want?

I don't see how that promotes balance in any form (although we all know sealed is still the biggest crap shoot out there.). It's far less constrictive to allow players to finish any gauntlet run whenever they want. Only having 1 open at a time per account. Vs. Allowing all players to enter and create a gauntlet with any packs they want.

To support you - I do think it would be fun to be able to play a gauntlet at some point with old packs, but it would seem challenging to add a queue for that based on the format HEX wants to stick with, and their need to limit the queues. (especially for gauntlet)

Sparrow
07-17-2015, 06:10 PM
Shaq, can you comment on what sort of benchmark you'd need to bring 221 back as an available format? For example, if we've got 15 333's firing per hour, would that be an indication that 221 could be restarted without impacting the 333 queue too much? Or is it the # of new players that register? For example, if 5000 new accounts joined (i.e. 5000 new players) could that trigger a return of 221?

MTGO can support queues and sealed events from the current block, the last block, and the core set, as well as sometimes even a fourth format (as of a few years ago, anyways). I realize we're not there yet in terms of # of players, but those are the types of options a lot of us would hope to see eventually (and hope Hex could support). My rule of thumb is anything Magic can do Hex can do better and I think having past blocks that are on sale in the store available as queues would be part of that eventually.

Shaqattaq
07-17-2015, 06:41 PM
This is where "protecting the value of our collections" comes in to play and bumps heads with just wanting to enjoy the awesome cards. Both are positives for players, just... different sets of players. And since this is a TCG rather than an LCG, collection value trumps wide accessibility after a certain point.

One of the biggest points for players was the sense of collectibility available in a TCG. That was part of the appeal in the Kickstarter-- get into a game early, at the very beginning of it. We're definitely sensitive to that and as I mentioned earlier, there's a balance to strike. "One resource-- deal 2 damage" or "blood action-kill a troop" are a fundamental part of the game and a place we'll likely go to multiple times, to speak to the theoretical 2k platinum Murders from earlier in the thread. We can't cut off that general design space from players no matter when they start playing. We have plenty of experience in collectibles and designing years and years of TCG content, so we are confident in our ability to do that.



The problem is no one wants to address the elephant in the room. This decision is most likely made to always sell the current set.

Since originally bringing this up, other forum posters have made very good counter-arguments to your point that this is a move to "sell more packs" and also echoed the reasons we outline in the "What about my Shards of Fate cards."

Thoom
07-17-2015, 06:45 PM
You realize that once Set 4 comes out you'll be playing against people that could have opened 6 packs of Set 3 vs your 3 packs of Set 3 and 3 packs of Set 4? You realize your argument for wanting an X only pool is null once the next set comes out? And you'll have to deal with it then but for some odd reason you do not want to deal with it now.

The reason gauntlet works like this is because saying "too late, your gauntlet run is over, too bad" when a new format rotates in would be awkward and enraging for players (especially since it might not always be possible for every player to fully finish out their run). It's not a design feature, it's a concession to practicality.

There's a big difference between playing against the last few set 3 stragglers when set 4 comes out and playing against mostly set 3 players after that because 4-4-4-4-3-3 (for example) doesn't result in as powerful decks as 3-3-3-3-3-3 and people feel compelled to play 3-3-3-3-3-3 instead.

OutlandishMatt
07-17-2015, 07:44 PM
However, the Gauntlet thing is just not making sense to me.
How can you quantify having a few players with spill-over miss-match packs, because they never finished a run before a new set launched...
To having all players being provided the choice to enter with whatever packs they want?

You don't get to enter with miss-match packs. You get two choices, most recent Chapter sealed or previous Chapter sealed. It will constantly rotate as a new set comes out but will keep at least two Chapters active at all times.


I don't see how that promotes balance in any form (although we all know sealed is still the biggest crap shoot out there.). It's far less constrictive to allow players to finish any gauntlet run whenever they want. Only having 1 open at a time per account. Vs. Allowing all players to enter and create a gauntlet with any packs they want.

Once again, you don't enter a gauntlet with any packs, it's the two most recent Chapters. (ie. Option A: 3 packs Set 1 & 3 packs Set 2 or Option B: 6 packs Set 3) Also, balance? The cards should already be balanced for sealed play as they're meant to be played in sealed.


To support you - I do think it would be fun to be able to play a gauntlet at some point with old packs, but it would seem challenging to add a queue for that based on the format HEX wants to stick with, and their need to limit the queues. (especially for gauntlet)

Perhaps they can do a legacy or vintage gauntlet weekend in a year or two where you can queue any Chapter you want?

OutlandishMatt
07-17-2015, 08:20 PM
Since originally bringing this up, other forum posters have made very good counter-arguments to your point that this is a move to "sell more packs" and also echoed the reasons we outline in the "What about my Shards of Fate cards."

I would love a link to these other counter-arguments because the "What about my Shards of Fate cards." section just redirects me to the constructed formats and if you're a competitive player that's only 1 format out of 3 formats to play. Not to mention the constructed scene outside of the community events and VIP are pretty dead right now.

On top of all that, I find the suggestion to just open packs rather than get value out of them by playing in a sealed format, that up until now, has been pretty dead to be off putting. Sealed, until Gauntlet gets released, has been a drought to fire unless it's VIP. I know several people that are upset that packs they've obtained through the Kickstarter, rewards, contests, VIP, and other means, are now pretty much wasted and they will now have to resort to selling them on the Auction House and taking a hit on the platinum difference between packs to play in sealed rather than just be allowed to play in sealed with the cards they have now.

nicosharp
07-17-2015, 08:32 PM
On top of all that, I find the suggestion to just open packs rather than get value out of them by playing in a sealed format, that up until now, has been pretty dead to be off putting. Sealed, until Gauntlet gets released, has been a drought to fire unless it's VIP. I know several people that are upset that packs they've obtained through the Kickstarter, rewards, contests, VIP, and other means, are now pretty much wasted and they will now have to resort to selling them on the Auction House and taking a hit on the platinum difference between packs to play in sealed rather than just be allowed to play in sealed with the cards they have now.
I didn't realize you were proposing two separate gauntlet queues prior. I don't like the idea a lot, but can see your line of reasoning
Gauntlet is really where the money is for HEX. I think it will attract a large player-base because it takes the time-commitment out of playing HEX limited.

To your quote above, I feel the same way about my old packs. I don't want to lose value on them, and I'd prefer to slowly grind them out in limited play.. Unfortunately, I've been doing that now for over a year, and my pack count never seems to go down...

I think they will have to do something like you are saying eventually. Either open up limited queues, or invent new ones for this specific demographic.

However, I'm still skeptical they will start by dividing one of the most expensive limited queues to enter player-bases - Sealed Gauntlet - Just to appease a subset. It will cause queue firing issues. Choice is great, but sometimes allowing choice based on timing makes the most sense for both the playerbase and the company. Meaning, Run the queues as special events, not in competition against one another...

Maybe this can be revisited when the playerbase grows.. It doesn't seem like we are there yet...

OutlandishMatt
07-17-2015, 08:38 PM
I didn't realize you were proposing two separate gauntlet queues prior.

I just want us to be perfectly clear, it's only one queue but two separate ways to enter.

An example would be the Gauntlet is like Disneyland and I have two ways to enter Disneyland, either by paying 3 packs of Set 1&2 or 6 packs of Set 3. But once I pay my entry I'm in the same Disneyland as everyone else. I meet people that paid like me or that paid the other way. Everyone is in the same pool.

300 players paid 6 packs of Set 3.
300 players paid 3 packs of Set1&2.
600 players in the Gauntlet queue.

Voormas
07-17-2015, 08:39 PM
This is a game that is still in development, it would be nice if they could have all the features and stuff they want to give us right now but everything they do takes development resources; even if we think something is easy, someone still needs to put time into thinking it all through / coming up with documentation / liaising with regional partners like Gameforge / etc on top of actually implementing the feature and someone needs to decide if that effort could be better spent elsewhere

Plus the game is still growing, splitting queues is probably not the greatest idea right now

I feel like eventually we will be able to spin up our own tournaments, I don't mind waiting

Thoom
07-17-2015, 08:42 PM
I just want us to be perfectly clear, it's only one queue but two separate ways to enter.

An example would be the Gauntlet is like Disneyland and I have two ways to enter Disneyland, either by paying 3 packs of Set 1&2 or 6 packs of Set 3. But once I pay my entry I'm in the same Disneyland as everyone else. I meet people that paid like me or that paid the other way. Everyone is in the same pool.

300 players paid 6 packs of Set 3.
300 players paid 3 packs of Set1&2.
600 players in the Gauntlet queue.

And if (hypothetically) 2-2-1 is stronger in sealed than 3-3-3, how would that feel? To know that if you wanted to play and enjoy the new set, you'd be disadvantaging yourself?

Sparrow
07-17-2015, 08:45 PM
Unless there's been an announcement to the contrary (which is possible) I'm expecting when we get to the point that the pack entry for gauntlet changes with Set 4, that all current gauntlet entries will be cancelled.

That aside, if I enter gauntlet I want to be matched against someone drawing from the same card pool I am. If they want to create a separate gauntlet for people that don't care about that, I've no problem with it.

Thoom
07-17-2015, 08:56 PM
Unless there's been an announcement to the contrary (which is possible) I'm expecting when we get to the point that the pack entry for gauntlet changes with Set 4, that all current gauntlet entries will be cancelled.

Does this count? (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=43643&page=2&p=497247&viewfull=1#post497247)

Shaqattaq
07-17-2015, 08:56 PM
I would love a link to these other counter-arguments because the "What about my Shards of Fate cards." section just redirects me to the constructed formats and if you're a competitive player that's only 1 format out of 3 formats to play. Not to mention the constructed scene outside of the community events and VIP are pretty dead right now.

On top of all that, I find the suggestion to just open packs rather than get value out of them by playing in a sealed format, that up until now, has been pretty dead to be off putting. Sealed, until Gauntlet gets released, has been a drought to fire unless it's VIP. I know several people that are upset that packs they've obtained through the Kickstarter, rewards, contests, VIP, and other means, are now pretty much wasted and they will now have to resort to selling them on the Auction House and taking a hit on the platinum difference between packs to play in sealed rather than just be allowed to play in sealed with the cards they have now.

My apologies. I meant the section "Armies of Myth in Limited." There's queue times to consider, formats matching, players all being in the same general space when they experience HEX limited, and such. Mixing packs/formats would not be in-line with the general goals of Gauntlet's ease and simplicity; other players have certainly voiced their displeasure at the idea of players taking their Armies of Myth deck against a chapter 1 deck.

I disagree that these packs are "wasted." They certainly have plenty of value left as outlined in the article, and we're certainly listening to player feedback in the decisions we make. I understand that you feel strongly about HEX and you're very active in the community. We always value your opinion and thank you for all the effort you spend supporting the community, but in this case we made a decision that we felt is best for the players at this time. Is this the last time you'll see Chapter 1 limited in the game ever again? Probably not. But I'd ask that when we launch the Armies of Myth patch, you give that experience a chance and try to see the positives overall that are there.

Thoom
07-17-2015, 09:02 PM
The main thing I hope for is that some time in the arbitrarily distant future (be it 5 or 50 years), if I get a hankering to play some 1-1-1 draft/sealed and I can find 7 other like-minded individuals, I want to have that option. Exactly how that's implemented (I can think of at least 3 or 4 different options all with their own pros and cons) is less important.

Sparrow
07-17-2015, 09:02 PM
Does this count? (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=43643&page=2&p=497247&viewfull=1#post497247)
Not really; it had a smiley face. Most likely it hasn't actually been decided yet.

Edit: And given shaq's post above, it seems clear that it will always be players using the same pool of cards. So shaq was being silly there. :cool:

Shaqattaq
07-17-2015, 09:03 PM
The main thing I hope for is that some time in the arbitrarily distant future (be it 5 or 50 years), if I get a hankering to play some 1-1-1 draft/sealed and I can find 7 other like-minded individuals, I want to have that option. Exactly how that's implemented (I can think of at least 3 or 4 different options all with their own pros and cons) is less important.

Yeah, I can see that happening. I'll say before 50 years.


Not really; it had a smiley face. Most likely it hasn't actually been decided yet.

The linked post is definitely how it'll work. Basically, it's a corner-case problem. The vast majority of runs will conclude before a new set is introduced. Allowing players to finish their run with their existing deck is the best, cleanest way to deal with those corner-case outliers in the system. Plus, we like a little surprise in HEX. Moments that generate surprise and convince a player that the entire system is not known, that the unexpected can happen.

Thoom
07-17-2015, 09:08 PM
Yeah, I can see that happening. I'll say before 50 years.

I would hope so. :)

The reason I used 50 is because set 1 will be long, long, long out of print by then. But a great format is a great format, and I'd hope that a minor detail like that wouldn't stop it from being playable in some form.

Sparrow
07-17-2015, 09:09 PM
Well, that's fine, but doesn't that contradict the stated goal of not mixing match ups? I doubt it will come up much, though.

Shaqattaq
07-17-2015, 09:12 PM
Well, that's fine, but doesn't that contradict the stated goal of not mixing match ups? I doubt it will come up much, though.

The alternative solutions are significantly worse than simply allowing the player to complete their run. It'll happen once in a blue moon. I wouldn't consider that us designing a system to that experience. It's us choosing the best possible answer to a corner-case issue.

nicosharp
07-17-2015, 09:14 PM
I just want us to be perfectly clear, it's only one queue but two separate ways to enter.

An example would be the Gauntlet is like Disneyland and I have two ways to enter Disneyland, either by paying 3 packs of Set 1&2 or 6 packs of Set 3. But once I pay my entry I'm in the same Disneyland as everyone else. I meet people that paid like me or that paid the other way. Everyone is in the same pool.

300 players paid 6 packs of Set 3.
300 players paid 3 packs of Set1&2.
600 players in the Gauntlet queue.
Oh, because some of the things you were replying to in an earlier post I made, I was specifically addressing the issue of having different packs in the same queue, and you seemed to be contradicting those statements by describing how set1+set2 and set3 were different... Sorry, my confusion then. I think what Shaq is saying is clear enough.

Sparrow
07-17-2015, 09:33 PM
The alternative solutions are significantly worse than simply allowing the player to complete their run. It'll happen once in a blue moon. I wouldn't consider that us designing a system to that experience. It's us choosing the best possible answer to a corner-case issue.
Okay, that makes sense.

Funny, I just cracked a Blue Moon before reading this post.

Hieronymous
07-17-2015, 09:41 PM
So, wait, question -- we can still use our Shards of Fate & Shattered Destiny cards in Constructed Gauntlet, right? Just not in Sealed Gauntlet?

Shaqattaq
07-17-2015, 09:46 PM
Okay, that makes sense.

Funny, I just cracked a Blue Moon before reading this post.

Cheers.


So, wait, question -- we can still use our Shards of Fate & Shattered Destiny cards in Constructed Gauntlet, right? Just not in Sealed Gauntlet?

Yes! Constructed is adding Armies of Myth, so decks can have cards from all 3 sets.

Yoss
07-17-2015, 11:36 PM
You realize that once Set 4 comes out you'll be playing against people that could have opened 6 packs of Set 3 vs your 3 packs of Set 3 and 3 packs of Set 4? You realize your argument for wanting an X only pool is null once the next set comes out? And you'll have to deal with it then but for some odd reason you do not want to deal with it now.
Yes, I realize there will be some spillovers. A very short transient of a couple percent of the population doesn't bother me.


We allow multiple pools because it's the currently being sold in the store. If they sell A,B,C packs in the store, I should be able to use A,B,C cards and packs in constructed, draft, and sealed play otherwise it can be misleading to the consumer. "Hey, I've bought the packs out of the store but I see I can't use them for anything but to open. WTF?!"
As I said above, I'm not against having a Chapter 1 Gauntlet separate from the Chapter 2 Gauntlet. I am neutral on it. I wouldn't play it, but I don't mind if someone else does. My only hesitation is size of the player base right now; we need more players.


Perhaps they can do a legacy or vintage gauntlet weekend in a year or two where you can queue any Chapter you want?

Sounds OK to me. However, I wouldn't allow spillovers in this case and would instead have some sort of truncation algorithm for the end of the event, like maybe coin flip all remaining matches.

OutlandishMatt
07-18-2015, 12:07 AM
And if (hypothetically) 2-2-1 is stronger in sealed than 3-3-3, how would that feel? To know that if you wanted to play and enjoy the new set, you'd be disadvantaging yourself?

Then honestly, that's a design issue. From a limited perspective I would think the majority of sets should be equal in power. Also, there's a huge part of chance. What if I get paired against someone that has 3 of the same bomb rares? What if I get paired against someone that has blah blah blah. It works just like constructed with variety, there will be powerful cards in 222211 and there will be powerful cards in 333333. Honestly, everyone would most likely play 333333 because of the consistency and being able to have more multiples of a single card.

Current Sealed Gauntlet will go like this:

*opens packs*
*filters by Vennen*
*puts them all in the deck, adds shards, chooses Zorzym as champion*

My Sealed Gauntlet would go like this:

*opens packs*
*filters by Human*
*puts them all in the deck, adds shards, chooses Sir Giles Rowan as champion*

OR

*opens packs*
*filters by Vennen*
*puts them all in the deck, adds shards, chooses Zorzym as champion*

See! Choices!


There's queue times to consider...

If anything, this reduces queue times because it allows another selection to enter the Gauntlet with! A terrible example would be you only accepting cash as payment when people have credit cards.


...formats matching...

You're not worrying about it in the future when someone can play an out of print set against someone, why worry about it now?


...players all being in the same general space when they experience HEX limited, and such.

This is no different than constructed.


Mixing packs/formats would not be in-line with the general goals of Gauntlet's ease and simplicity; other players have certainly voiced their displeasure at the idea of players taking their Armies of Myth deck against a chapter 1 deck.

Is the goal of Gauntlet ease and simplicity or to allow players to play more games of Hex at their leisure? Also, adding Set 1&2 sealed to the Gauntlet provides more replayability. After a couple of months I see Gauntlet becoming stale. But if you increase the card pool choices it increases the range of decks you can create.


...but in this case we made a decision that we felt is best for the players at this time.

I'm sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree. I think what's best for the players is to allow the current sealed format of 222211 to be an option in Gauntlet. Not only does it boost morale for all the Kickstarter backers that have tons in surplus but also allows new players to buy packs from the store/AH and actually do something with them rather than open them.

It should be left for the players to decide which Chapter, that is currently being sold in the Hex Store, they want to play in the Gauntlet. The digital game that shall not be named does not have this restriction and I think it sets a bad precedent to reduce the number of options players can use their packs for. And once again, the dividing of the player base has no effect on this format as it's not like there would be a second queue like draft or sealed would need. It would be a central queue that just had two choices for entry: previous sealed Chapter or current sealed Chapter.


But I'd ask that when we launch the Armies of Myth patch, you give that experience a chance and try to see the positives overall that are there.

I see the positives but I'm arguing for what I see as unnecessary restrictions.


Plus, we like a little surprise in HEX. Moments that generate surprise and convince a player that the entire system is not known, that the unexpected can happen.

Wouldn't what I'm arguing for be exactly that? I'd rather join the Gauntlet not knowing if I'm going to face a 222211 deck or a 333333 deck. It makes the point of entry easier and gives a lot more range for deck choices.

LNQ
07-18-2015, 12:48 AM
OutlandishMatt, you're making a mistake that fundamentally affects the discussion. That is, different sets specifically do NOT have or should be equal in strength. It would be next to impossible to do that considering how different sets are from each other.

Limited balance works by balancing cards WITHIN the limited pool with each other, not by having every limited pool be of equal strength. This means that for balance, it is extremely important that people cant enter with different pools.

And none of this is a design flaw. It is the only reasonable way to pull off balanced limited.

Otherwise I understand your arguments, but the above reason makes your proposal unworkable.

Azzer
07-18-2015, 01:39 AM
Yes, i can become VIP again, i was so sad when my other VIP ran out!

bootlace
07-18-2015, 02:32 AM
OutlandishMatt, your idea to mix Set 3 and Set 2/1 packs together in a limited format is simply not workable on anything more than a 'once in a bluemoon fun moment type of thing' (I would actually auto-end these Gauntlet runs if they haven't completed by the time the format shifts, but apparently I'm not as nice as the HXE folk).

So why is mixing Set 3 and Set 1/2 not workable in limited?

Because Set 1 and 2 are designed to be played with each other - everything from the synergies, to the champions, to the number of utility cards available, to the power level of the cards and the balance of the shards are all fine tuned to death to provide an optimal limited environment. Set 3 is simply not designed with Set 1 and 2 cards in mind. When Set 4 comes out it will be designed with Set 3 in mind and that is why you will see them combined. After the novelty wears off it would suck playing with a bunch of sets that have no synergy with each other in a format (sealed) that is already difficult sometimes to make a functional deck with cards that are supposed to work together. Imagine your blood deck getting a Spiderling related card, a charge-matters card, and a Darkspire card..

As far as constructed goes, all cards in Set 1/2/3 are designed/balanced to be in the same standard constructed format and that is why they can be grouped together.

The solution here would have been to have two separate queues everywhere (draft/sealed/sealed gauntlet) with 3-3-3 format AND 2-2-1 format but HXE doesn't feel confident right now that the queues would fire so they've limited the options by half.

Having said all this, I do feel you have some right to be dissatisfied. HXE should have let everyone know about this format shift months in advance so everyone would have had time to use up their packs and sold/not-bought new ones with this in mind (just like the warning we were given with the common AAs in the store). They probably wanted to make 2-2-1 still available but unfortunately the players numbers currently doesn't allow it so it was something they were too late on realizing.

I do hope that eventually when the whole sandbox mode hits that guilds or whatever will be able to organize these type of wacky old formats whether it is the nostalgic 2-2-1 or the novelty 3-2-1 format or maybe an X-X-X format if that's what people want to do.

EDIT: If you meant some players playing 2-2-2-2-1-1 while others playing 3-3-3-3-3-3 then that's not balanced against each other either. 2-2-2-2-1-1 (Chapter 1) has WAY better champions first of all and that alone would swing things in its favor.

Poetic
07-18-2015, 05:50 AM
Yeah, these sets aren't meant to play with each other in limited...

Maybe they allow for separate queues at some point but for now their plan is just set 3 and that seems right to me.

Patrigan
07-18-2015, 06:11 AM
Bootlace, small note on your post. The power level is supposed to be roughly equal to the power level of set 1 & 2. Yes, some synergies might work better, that is true. But the rough powerlevel is balanced to be the same, no matter what set or combination of sets you pick. If it wasn't, then they would have massive issues with constructed format. So the rough balance level is the same. That said, it might be possible that one set has better bombs, but perhaps the rest of the set is worse. This makes it in general more difficult to quantify which set/chapter is better.

I personally am still more a fan of "enter with any booster you like, the boosters are just used as payment and you'll get random/pre-defined sets."

Poetic
07-18-2015, 07:23 AM
Constructed and limited are very different. Sets 1/2 have much better removal as well. Set 3 seems much slower than 1/2.

wolzarg
07-18-2015, 07:58 AM
Constructed and limited are very different. Sets 1/2 have much better removal as well. Set 3 seems much slower than 1/2.
This, the limited enviroments are most definitely not equal in power or even close to it. Just look at the champions in set 1 and 2 compared to the ones in set 3 already the difference is noticable. Set 1 has common removal with small requirements for cheap, set 2-3 has broader removal that costs more or very narrow removal at the cost range of set 1. The bombs are actually about equal but the creatures in set 1-2 seem far superior in speed to the set 3 ones. Honestly if i was playing for pure win rate and disregarding enjoyment i would go 1-1-1 or the like for the abundance of strong removal and the good two for 2 and evasion creatures.

bootlace
07-18-2015, 08:07 AM
If it wasn't, then they would have massive issues with constructed format. So the rough balance level is the same. That said, it might be possible that one set has better bombs, but perhaps the rest of the set is worse.

Actually the bombs are not such a problem. In limited you have to build your deck from mostly commons and uncommons so it's the common/uncommon balance that is most important (but not something HXE cares at all about balancing set vs set). Also I don't see how sets have to be balanced for constructed play...

PointerToVoid
07-18-2015, 09:12 AM
So I'm confused.

I'm new. I've been playing Hex (my first TCG) for about 3 days. If I have this straight, the limited formats are going to be AoM only Monday. There are several posts (two of which are sticky) that say when you buy packs DON'T open them except in the draft, except the draft is going AoM only. Does this mean that for a new player like me the only way to build a Set1-2 Dwarf deck(s) is to buy packs from the Store/AH and just open them and hope for the best?

nicosharp
07-18-2015, 09:18 AM
So I'm confused.

I'm new. I've been playing Hex (my first TCG) for about 3 days. If I have this straight, the limited formats are going to be AoM only Monday. There are several posts (two of which are sticky) that say when you buy packs DON'T open them except in the draft, except the draft is going AoM only. Does this mean that for a new player like me the only way to build a Set1-2 Dwarf deck(s) is to buy packs from the Store/AH and just open them and hope for the best?
It's unfortunately the way limited works in TCGs. If you still have set1 and set2 packs, great!. IMO, you should hold them, not open them, and wait until some limited format comes back that makes use of them. I think there will eventually be enough demand, to make this happen.

AoM does not release on Monday. We just find out when it releases on Monday (but crossing fingers for Tuesday).
I'll update one of those stickied posts to communicate what is going on now.

LNQ
07-18-2015, 09:20 AM
So I'm confused.

I'm new. I've been playing Hex (my first TCG) for about 3 days. If I have this straight, the limited formats are going to be AoM only Monday. There are several posts (two of which are sticky) that say when you buy packs DON'T open them except in the draft, except the draft is going AoM only. Does this mean that for a new player like me the only way to build a Set1-2 Dwarf deck(s) is to buy packs from the Store/AH and just open them and hope for the best?

The best way to build Set1-2 dwarf decks is to buy Set 3 packs, open them in draft, and then after the draft tournament is over sell the Set 3 cards and buy the Dwarf cards you want from AH.

PointerToVoid
07-18-2015, 09:24 AM
It's unfortunately the way limited works in TCGs. If you still have set1 and set2 packs, great!. IMO, you should hold them, not open them, and wait until some limited format comes back that makes use of them. I think there will eventually be enough demand, to make this happen.

AoM does not release on Monday. We just find out when it releases on Monday (but crossing fingers for Tuesday).
I'll update one of those stickied posts to communicate what is going on now.

Thanks. I haven't actually bought any packs yet since it seemed like everything was changing. I'll head over to your sticky post.

Poetic
07-18-2015, 09:51 AM
Never buy packs to open specific cards, buying singles is always the best.

nicosharp
07-18-2015, 09:51 AM
Thanks. I haven't actually bought any packs yet since it seemed like everything was changing. I'll head over to your sticky post.
Cool, just updated - The info you are looking for is in my second post there, towards the bottom.:
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24477

Merlin_the_mage
07-18-2015, 02:34 PM
I think it still has a problem with the lack of 2-2-1 drafts, and here's why. Сonstantly come into play new players, and they want to play Constructed format too. Where can they get the right cards? Buy them at auction. Or opening of the boosters. I spent the whole platinum on a test server, but has not revealed all the right cards from the booster. And hardly anyone will do it.
Number of Primal packs so as to cut because no prizes in the form of booster of sets 1 and 2. We get a shortage of such cards as the Angel of Dawn, Vampire King, Reyes, and so on. And their prices will rise to the skies. I think, until the current card of sets 1 and 2 did not come out of the format, players must be able to play with these boosters.

OutlandishMatt
07-18-2015, 02:41 PM
It's unfortunately the way limited works in TCGs.

No, "It's unfortunately the way it works in Hex" is what you should have said. The card game that shall not be named let's you play both sealed and draft for the 2 most recent sets (separate queues) at least.

LNQ
07-18-2015, 02:43 PM
Exactly. Separate queues.

Yoss
07-18-2015, 02:46 PM
Exactly. Separate queues.

This.

And the current player base of Hex is (sadly) not big enough yet to offer as many choices as that other game.

Poetic
07-18-2015, 02:53 PM
Separate indeed. You were proposing using both limited formats in the same sealed gauntlet which wouldn't work.

nicosharp
07-18-2015, 03:30 PM
Separate indeed. You were proposing using both limited formats in the same sealed gauntlet which wouldn't work.For what he quoted, in terms of my response. It was a fair correction. MTG does offer limited formats of prior sets. HEX will likely do the same, eventually.

There are other buckets of players in HEX that are not in MTG:O - like F2P PvE(arena for now), and come the patch, the Gauntlet population. MTG:O basically thrives solely on their 8-mans (yes they have some tournament schedules too). I think HEX wants to see what the playerbase growth looks like before dividing the playerbase further..

hex_colin
07-18-2015, 06:21 PM
So I'm confused.

I'm new. I've been playing Hex (my first TCG) for about 3 days. If I have this straight, the limited formats are going to be AoM only Monday. There are several posts (two of which are sticky) that say when you buy packs DON'T open them except in the draft, except the draft is going AoM only. Does this mean that for a new player like me the only way to build a Set1-2 Dwarf deck(s) is to buy packs from the Store/AH and just open them and hope for the best?

You shouldn't assume that the information in stickies is the be all and end all on any given subject. People SUGGEST only opening packs in draft because they gain the most added value from that. But, like everything in life, there is a time component involved. For me, that time component is far, far, far more valuable to me that any additional value gained by exclusively opening packs from drafting. So, whilst I draft a LOT, but I also open a lot of packs outside drafts to get what I want/need.

wolzarg
07-18-2015, 06:59 PM
But this still works out because you simply only open packs in draft from set 3. Sell the valuable cards and then buy the specific cards you want instead of drafting 48 times to get a common uncommon dwarf deck. Sure you could luck out and open that one dwarf rare you want but what are the odds?

Falaris
07-18-2015, 10:31 PM
You shouldn't assume that the information in stickies is the be all and end all on any given subject. People SUGGEST only opening packs in draft because they gain the most added value from that. But, like everything in life, there is a time component involved. For me, that time component is far, far, far more valuable to me that any additional value gained by exclusively opening packs from drafting. So, whilst I draft a LOT, but I also open a lot of packs outside drafts to get what I want/need.

off topic, but with you having roughly 50 KS tiers it feels like, along with the whole 'i get 4 of everything for life' producer tier, how on earth do you NEED to open packs to get what you need lol. You should have EVERYTHING!

Raith
07-18-2015, 11:10 PM
Colin is still looking for one of the 5 golden tickets. :P

Oli
07-19-2015, 12:19 AM
The linked post is definitely how it'll work. Basically, it's a corner-case problem. The vast majority of runs will conclude before a new set is introduced.

There might be a problem if you want to do release-events with 4-4-4-4-4-4 gauntlets, and all players are competing against the current 3-3-3-3-3-3 players. Also I might not be able to join a release-gauntlet, because I'm not finished with my current run.
I think ending a season of 3-3-3-3-3-3, awarding prices based on the current performance to each player and starting a new fresh gauntlet would be the better solution.

LNQ
07-19-2015, 02:56 AM
I would expect the way those transition periods are handled will evolve over time based on what works and what doesnt.

Since its an issue only for such a short period of time and doesnt have a massive impact means its easy to just improve it as we go if this first way of doing it is found not to be ideal.

Oli
07-19-2015, 11:57 AM
I bet quite a lot of people will join a gauntlet with the current (well analyzed) set right before they release a new set to take advantage of the undeveloped limited-strategies of the new set.
People might (falsely) come to the conclusion that the new set is trash compared to the older.

wolzarg
07-19-2015, 12:10 PM
Or they get stomped because the evolutions of the previous strategy isn't as big as you might expect and some cards actually open the archetypes more.

Mahes
07-19-2015, 06:54 PM
Colin is still looking for one of the 5 golden tickets. :P

He got the golden ticket and visited the factory. He has candy in his likeness for crying out loud.

elfstone
07-20-2015, 01:12 AM
but how else can he get more loots to giveaway if he doesn't get primals? :D

EntropyBall
07-20-2015, 12:57 PM
I see Matt's point about the number of Set 1/2 packs out there from the KS that now can't be used in an efficient manner. I disagree with his combined Chapter 1/2 gauntlet idea, for the balance reasons everyone has outlined, and I can see how splitting the playerbase for gauntlet could be even worse than it is for draft/sealed (see this discussion: http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=44361&p=505969&viewfull=1#post505969) but I would really like to see Chapter 1 draft/sealed/gauntlet options come back for certain weekends or something.

I obviously don't know how the numbers look across the board, but a lot of the KS backers I know have basically missed out on Chapter 1 limited because they are waiting for Hex to be more feature complete and have PVE. The KS sold the game as far more complete than it was, they backed it on that premise, and haven't been interested in playing much until it gets closer to what they thought they were backing. When PVE hits I'm hoping it will draw them back into the game, but they will have lots of Set 1/2 packs that they can no longer use for limited play. Yeah, those packs are not "worthless" but it's pretty obvious that they have far less value if they can't be used in limited. The limited payouts make it pretty clear that opened packs != unopened packs.

The counter-argument to this might be "well, if they wanted to play limited with those packs, they should've done so when the format was in place" Fair enough, but most of my friends have limited gaming time and prefer sealed to draft, and as others have mentioned, it has been extremely difficult to use your packs in sealed tournaments throughout Hex's life. The requirement of 3-4 time chunks combined with very few tournies that even fired (sans VIP) means that if you preferred Sealed, you had few opportunities to crack packs in limited. CZE is introducing this great new format that is perfect for people who like sealed and have limited time, and now they won't be able to use any of their existing packs to play it.


To your quote above, I feel the same way about my old packs. I don't want to lose value on them, and I'd prefer to slowly grind them out in limited play.. Unfortunately, I've been doing that now for over a year, and my pack count never seems to go down...
Also, nico, complaining about some first-world, first-place problems... :D

Gwaer
07-21-2015, 01:38 AM
On the bright side, it should be an excellent time to buy set 1-2 singles in the auction house over the next few days.

wolzarg
07-21-2015, 04:27 AM
Vampire king disagrees.

Mahes
07-21-2015, 07:17 AM
On the bright side, it should be an excellent time to buy set 1-2 singles in the auction house over the next few days.

Packs...yes. Singles on the other hand will not go down much and might eventually go up. This is due to the fact that drafts will no longer crack them open and so there will be less of a market available. This of course also refers to the rares and legendaries that everyone wants a play set for, not commons and most uncommons. I will be interested to see if the dual shards and chloro go up even more.