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View Full Version : Judges playing at the events that they are judging



Gnimsh
01-13-2011, 07:10 PM
Is it allowed, or strictly forbidden? Or maybe is it allowed under some special conditions?

I'd like to attempt an Expert test in Paris, but I certainly won't give up playing. The question is if it's better to have a 2nd level judge around that can help and is present on every sanctioned event, or to force//buy somebody that can't advance to lvl2 (as there are no lv2 judges in his country) into judging simply because he has no chance on scoring the 1st place? - I actually can't imagine anybody deciding not to play at the local event, or RCQ and sticking to judging only.

It's especially crucial in small gaming groups, which can't afford to have a player not playing in the event.

What is the official standpoint here? :)

Another situation might be that a Nationals event would be organized by the local company with CZE's help, but they are short on judges that are lvl 2 or greater, then a playing lvl 2-3 judge might be an enormous help for them.

freudinio
01-13-2011, 07:43 PM
Judges can play in battleground and such. But not realm qualifiers.

I personally have no idea how to advance in judge test, as you have to be "sponsored" by a higher tier judge, and last I checked, my country had none :P

Sorry I couldn't help you out much, hope it works out for ya.

lactatingmonkeys
01-13-2011, 08:16 PM
C-Value 10 (Local): Events include Battlegrounds, Sneak Previews, and sanctioned
tournaments.

RQ is a realm level event. Who can't play in an event?

Any tournament official, including the judge staff, scorekeeper, or tournament
organizer of the tournament. Local level events are an exception to this rule.

Gnimsh
01-14-2011, 12:27 PM
So it's basically better to have an RQ without a judge, or a judge level 0 who is only checking if the players cheat, or not instead of a fully prepared judge that takes care of the playgroup, but is favoring playing? :P

I understand the idea behind it though. Judge is only a human, so when he plays the game he will be biased and might seem not fair with the rulings. How to then build a judge community in a country with no judges, but players only? :]

lactatingmonkeys
01-14-2011, 02:21 PM
Try to convert more those players into judges?

shadowwarl
01-14-2011, 06:50 PM
So it's basically better to have an RQ without a judge, or a judge level 0 who is only checking if the players cheat, or not instead of a fully prepared judge that takes care of the playgroup, but is favoring playing? :P

Just wondering can there be an RQ without a judge???
Duh
Just remembered TOs can also be judges so I guess the TO would then have to be a judge which leads to the question can a TO also be a Judge at the same events?

cervidal
01-14-2011, 07:35 PM
As a full-time nerd who also does other gaming hobbies, I outright refuse to play in events where the rules arbiter gets to also play in the event. It creates such an overwhelming conflict of interest that it is not possible to remove the feeling of slant.

To a lesser extent, this also comes in when the organizer actually sponsors and pays for players. There has been grumbling, locally, about this happening with other CCGs in the past local to me.

SnotRash
01-14-2011, 08:36 PM
As a full-time nerd who also does other gaming hobbies, I outright refuse to play in events where the rules arbiter gets to also play in the event. It creates such an overwhelming conflict of interest that it is not possible to remove the feeling of slant..

I;ve never understood this.

Why does their have to be a conflict when the judge also plays. In the event that a rules question comes up in a judges match, you simply have someone else oversee the question. In the event of a disagreement, there are plenty of rules resources online to solve most, if not all, issues.

As someone who has been organizing and judging sanctioned events at the premier level for well over 10 years now, I applauded the change to allow judges to play in their own, local level, events when WotC first introduced it. When other gaming companies follow this, I applauded even harder.

If you have a judge that can't be trusted to make valid, sensible rulings, then the feeling of slant should be there regardless of if they are playing or not. Rather than exiling the judge from playing in low level/local events, simply make sure that they never judge their own matches, or simply institute the old 3-judge system. This meaning that you have a head judge and 2 other people that are well versed in the rules, that way you always have someone who can make an outside ruling in the event that 2 of the 3 are playing each other.

Now I am not saying that a judge should be allowed to play in their own events at anything other than a low level/local event as anything higher simply requires to much time/attention on the judges part. But at the local level, you should welcome your judge to play, what better way to get a grasp on the understanding of the game, as well as their morals/scruples.

Besides, what prevents them from having the same slant regardless of if they play in their own event or not?

Yes, I play in my own events. I have ever since WotC said it was allowed for Magic, and I currently, thanks to Cryptozoic, do so for WoW. Maybe I have different players here in Kentucky, but not once in many, many years of playing/judging has there ever been a complaint or grumbling. Most people welcome the chance to beat the judge. 8^)

mozu
01-14-2011, 09:18 PM
well said Kevin and I agree, I play in local events, obviously I do not rule on questions in my matches and go from there. It helps that I have 4-5 other judges in Tucson......

Morp
01-15-2011, 09:51 AM
It helps me train a couple of guys in my area as judges. If im playing them Ill sometimes set something up and talk it out with them.

kalphius
01-15-2011, 05:22 PM
Ok I have a question then.. I was recently at a RQ event and from what one of my players who came with me stated the TO was playing and not only did he play, he made Top 8.. So in theory someone just got screwed out of a top spot that was thiers since he by the rules was not supposed to play.. Who do I report this too and how will it be taken care of... Flashing the Crypto signal!!!

Morp
01-15-2011, 05:35 PM
player@cryptozoic.com

kalphius
01-15-2011, 06:18 PM
How about this.. The event took place today and if it was the TO that played and also placed in the Top 8 then the entire event is comprimised.. I have placed a call to GWON and left a message on his phone.. Would perfer a Crypto employee or Simon to message me so I can see whats going down..

Zalmek
01-15-2011, 11:30 PM
Random off topic post here, but Simon seems to be the only active Level 5 Judge on these forums.....(That I see).....

Patrigan
01-16-2011, 01:37 AM
How about this.. The event took place today and if it was the TO that played and also placed in the Top 8 then the entire event is comprimised.. I have placed a call to GWON and left a message on his phone.. Would perfer a Crypto employee or Simon to message me so I can see whats going down..

Then you would still better mail player@cryptozoic.com , But have you also talked with the TO about it? Might very well be that he doesn't realize it.


Random off topic post here, but Simon seems to be the only active Level 5 Judge on these forums.....(That I see).....

Random off-topic answer. There's also Demonfae and Toad, although they're not as active as Simon on these forums. I don't know if Thomas ever posted, but he's cut back on playing due to RL as well.

Don't worry, if I get my say in it, there will be another one before the end of the year (myself that is!), but I just need to bribe some more of those SI:7 persons... (I bribe with MAD skillz) (aka, I will at least attempt to get higher this year, with my first step in March)

cervidal
01-16-2011, 09:29 AM
Given the location of the complaining poster and the realm qualifiers that happened this weekend, I would bet dollars to donuts I know who he is talking about and would be able to confirm he not only knew what he was doing was a comprimise of the rules and had been told as such prior to the event.

In addition to what was mentioned earlier -

You're right, I actually don't trust said judges to judge such events. In this case, the one I believe kalphias is referring to, I don't trust said organizer to judge anything him or his friends play in as they are known throughout the area for being an insular, win-at-all-costs kind of group. This group is also known, in other CCGs, to have slanted events in their favor through preferred pairing. This is the primary reason why I took a pass from this weekend's local RCQ

kalphius
01-16-2011, 07:20 PM
It's because of this type of behavior that our game suffers because new players view these forums and see this type of stuff and it turns them away.. I personally will not be attending anymore events hosted by them and hope that Cryptozoic will take swift and aproiate action up to censuring the event and pulling the sponsership of their judges and champions.. I know this sounds harse and a bit much but it will send a strong message to people wish to comprimise the integrity of those of who represent this gaming community.. It is truely disapointing to have traveled as far as I did only to return home and feel cheated.. I wish to know how this will be rectified and those of us who participated will be compfisated because all the pairings and match ups were totally ruined.. Sorry for the poor grammar and spelling but my comp seems to be mad so spell check isn't working and I'm tired as hell....!

freudinio
01-16-2011, 07:33 PM
Just wondering can there be an RQ without a judge???
Duh
Just remembered TOs can also be judges so I guess the TO would then have to be a judge which leads to the question can a TO also be a Judge at the same events?

I certainly hope so!

Not much interest in judging / TO'ing in my area, so I am sort of a one man army atm.

skey23
01-16-2011, 10:53 PM
While I am a moderator of these sites, a member of SI:7 and a member of the rules team, I am not an employee of CZE.

I can certainly get information to the correct folks at CZE when things need to be addressed; however, I am not privy to the decision making process for something such as the issue being described, so I'm afraid once CZE decides what to do, I'm of no use to anybody...lol.

If you have contacted Mike Girard, then you've done all you can do, short of sending an email to player@cryptozoic.com explaining as much information as you can, in as much detail as you can. The email provides a resource that can easily be passed to the correct person to resolve the issue, whereas a voicemail is more difficult to pass around.


Yes, the TO can judge the event. This is probably going to be one of the more common occurrences with Volunteers being the ones to actually run/TO events, considering most Volunteers are also judges.

No, there should never be an RQ run without a judge. This helps to ensure a fair playing environment for everybody involved.
If this environment is being tainted by a judge, volunteer or TO, then CZE definitely needs to know about it.

Suavepeanuts
01-17-2011, 01:12 PM
I have been playing for just over a month. I love the card game I think it is really fun, but after going to the same event as Kalphius and seeing what happened I am kind of put off by the idea of organized play. Seeing people doing things like this just so they can win a few extra booster packs is pretty ridiculous.

Just my 2 pennies.

cervidal
01-17-2011, 01:15 PM
They don't even do it for the boosters. They do it so they can more easily guarantee themselves spots at Realms.

Eigen
01-17-2011, 01:55 PM
They don't even do it for the boosters. They do it so they can more easily guarantee themselves spots at Realms.

If I could ask, what do you mean "more easily"? I'm under the impression that in judging at a RQ, we void ourselves from qualification at the Realm Championship level.

kalphius
01-17-2011, 02:35 PM
They had other players that were part of the play group.. If the TO was from their play group and plays in said event and top 8's then he keeps someone else out and when it comes down to the matches in top 8 he can just concede the match so one of his buddies gets a easy win to top 4

skey23
01-17-2011, 02:51 PM
TOs and judges can certainly play in Realm Qualifiers they are not going to TO or judge.
Now, having said that, if you are going to judge or TO your Realm Championship, then I would certainly hope any judge/TO would not willingly take away somebody's chance to qualify for that event.
If you aren't going to TO or judge your Realm Champs, then there is nothing stopping you from getting your qualifications.

I love to play as much as the next person, and I will be playing in at least 1 Constructed RQ and 1 Sealed RQ just for the fun of it. Will I be 'laying the smack down' on folks?...probably...;) Will they lose to me?...not a chance. I'm not there to keep anybody from qualifying. I'm there simply to play and have fun in a competitive environment.

Patrigan
01-17-2011, 02:59 PM
TOs and judges can certainly play in Realm Qualifiers they are not going to TO or judge.
Now, having said that, if you are going to judge or TO your Realm Championship, then I would certainly hope any judge/TO would not willingly take away somebody's chance to qualify for that event.
If you aren't going to TO or judge your Realm Champs, then there is nothing stopping you from getting your qualifications.

I love to play as much as the next person, and I will be playing in at least 1 Constructed RQ and 1 Sealed RQ just for the fun of it. Will I be 'laying the smack down' on folks?...probably...;) Will they lose to me?...not a chance. I'm not there to keep anybody from qualifying. I'm there simply to play and have fun in a competitive environment.

That reminds me, Simon is there a way to pass any qualification points? I'd like to play, but I don't want to get any of those points as I'm hoping to (head) judge RC.

skey23
01-17-2011, 03:00 PM
I'm afraid I do not know the answer to that question. My guess would be 'No' you can't do that, which is why I always lose and come in last place...;)

Patrigan
01-17-2011, 03:01 PM
I'm afraid I do not know the answer to that question. My guess would be 'No' you can't do that, which is why I always lose and come in last place...;)

But I still want to see if the deck I cooked up can be competitive :(

But ah well, seems like that's the way to go ^^

shadowwarl
01-17-2011, 07:21 PM
I'm afraid I do not know the answer to that question. My guess would be 'No' you can't do that, which is why I always lose and come in last place...;)


Couldnt you just play and drop in the final round? or would that effect the tiebrakers in a wierd way? this way you could see how your deck actually does or even if you win I guess you could always say the other player won as well.

JonnyDraco
01-18-2011, 12:03 PM
Given the location of the complaining poster and the realm qualifiers that happened this weekend, I would bet dollars to donuts I know who he is talking about and would be able to confirm he not only knew what he was doing was a comprimise of the rules and had been told as such prior to the event.

In addition to what was mentioned earlier -

You're right, I actually don't trust said judges to judge such events. In this case, the one I believe kalphias is referring to, I don't trust said organizer to judge anything him or his friends play in as they are known throughout the area for being an insular, win-at-all-costs kind of group. This group is also known, in other CCGs, to have slanted events in their favor through preferred pairing. This is the primary reason why I took a pass from this weekend's local RCQ

We do have Louisville and Indy RCQ this coming weekend. You are not missing out too bad this month. I do agree that seems weird that if he knew that he shouldn't play and yet did, but as long as the info gets passed to Crypto then if anyone was purposely trying to rig/screw up a RCQ on purpose that they will more than likely put a stop to it.

kalphius
01-18-2011, 06:43 PM
Oh I dont plan on missing anymore RCQ's.. I'll be heading to Cleveland this weekend and then to my favorite place to play currently Fun 4 All games in Yipslanti Mich.. I'd love to see alot of peeps turn out there cause that play group is amazing to play with and exemptlfies everything I love about this game.. But hopefully a investigation into the RIW RCQ will be done soon and we can learn whats up... I travel all over teldrasil to play wow with alot of play groups and thats what makes this game fun!!!

martinezjkind
01-19-2011, 08:20 AM
Couldnt you just play and drop in the final round? or would that effect the tiebrakers in a wierd way? this way you could see how your deck actually does or even if you win I guess you could always say the other player won as well.

Well if you make it to the finals , you still changed the match ups and records of at least 4+ people. In our group we have 2 judges , one that judges BG to conventions events and another that judges conventions to national events.At RQ we will play to get members of our group to higher standings in the event , since we are both judging RC.

YetiGaming
01-24-2011, 05:10 PM
I love it when people openly admit to collusion or team play.

Gives everyone a warm fuzzy feeling about the event.

"Remember, it's not how good you play, it's how many friends give you the win"

I really hope the event that had the TO playing in it is scrutinized.

Most other games will not let the organizer or the HJ play in the event. Whole integrity thing.

Vince

Patrigan
01-24-2011, 11:21 PM
Most other games will not let the organizer or the HJ play in the event. Whole integrity thing.

Just for the record. This game ALSO does not allow it. Except for local Battlegrounds where usually not a lot is on the line.

Eigen
01-28-2011, 10:55 AM
When the new honor system comes out, and we'll be sanctioning events directly to the site, I wonder if that rule will change. I notice that Judges will get honor as a judge, and not as a player. At a CL10 event like Battlegrounds, would this mean they won't be able to play in the future?

Patrigan
01-28-2011, 12:19 PM
When the new honor system comes out, and we'll be sanctioning events directly to the site, I wonder if that rule will change. I notice that Judges will get honor as a judge, and not as a player. At a CL10 event like Battlegrounds, would this mean they won't be able to play in the future?

I think the system will simply only count them once. Depends how they'll handle it ofcourse.

Loz
02-15-2011, 03:08 AM
Couple of Qs came up at our RCQ this weekend

- Do judges for an RCQ get the 3 attendance points towards qualifying for RC?
- Do dropped people still get 3 points? (Sorry I know this one isn't as relevant to the topic)

Damio
02-15-2011, 09:48 AM
Couple of Qs came up at our RCQ this weekend

- Do judges for an RCQ get the 3 attendance points towards qualifying for RC?
- Do dropped people still get 3 points? (Sorry I know this one isn't as relevant to the topic)


i didnt think there was 3 attendance points, i thought it was only players with standings of 9 and above at the end of the tournament that got points

Whizzwang
02-15-2011, 01:05 PM
Everybody who goes to a RCQ gets 3 points minimum. So if you job all day at each event you can still attend a Champs event by simply going to 4 RCQ's and grabbing 12 points.

Points breakdown is:

1st: 10
2nd: 10
3rd / 4th: 6
5th / 8th: 4
9th and lower: 3

Sianzzz
02-15-2011, 05:51 PM
Ummm..
But I think the points are only for the players playing in the event.
Judges and TOs do not have any standings.
Anyway, I have been judging for the RQs in Singapore.
Just a note to other judges:
Don't worry about not being able to get enough points for RC.
You often will not be judging every event, so you can play in events that you're not judging to qualify for RC as I believe there are enough RQs to go around.
Also I agree to the fact that Judges and TOs should not be allowed to play in major events like RQs.
There's simply too much to do when you're judging a high-level event and you won't have the luxury to play and judge at the same time.
Anyway, good luck to all the judges who are trying to qualify for RC!