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Altima
07-25-2015, 06:18 AM
What I experience is flood and screw again and again.

This is too annoying. 17 land and 23 spell in MTG never fail me. I never have a tournament draft in both MTGO and real life MTG that I keep flood and screw this much before. Moreover, there is no mana fixer in draft which is ridiculous. If you cannot draw resource of both color you lose because you have only crappy artifact as a terrible mana fixer.

I can really say that about 70 % of games that I lost are because of resource problem.

Seriously, how to fix it. If I screw I have to add more land. If I got flooded I add more spell. However, I have got both problem in the same deck again and again.

Erukk
07-25-2015, 06:38 AM
Yes, this game's shuffler is rng.

Though, I will add that this game's resource and threshold system is ALOT more forgiving than Magic's mana system. Magic requires a lot of mana fixers in each set because without them it severely handicaps the player's casting ability. There isn't much need for them in Hex's threshold system (unless you're playing a heavily colored or prismatic deck) since most cards only require a single or double threshold of their required color. As long as you meet the threshold of the card, you will only need the resources to be able to play it afterwards.

Mahes
07-25-2015, 07:30 AM
Yes it is pure random. This means that a player in theory could go multiple games in a row with resource issues because that is how random works. The idea is that is balances itself out because any player can have this issue. I will say that having what I call "Cat"(My cat could do just as well walking on the keyboard) games is not a lot of fun.

Kami
07-25-2015, 07:47 AM
It's not pure random but it's pretty close to it. It's a seeded RNG iirc. In other words, the results are able to be predicted by developers to check whether the game is random enough (otherwise, how would you diagnosis random?).

But as has been stated in many, many threads. RNG is working as expected currently.

Gorgol
07-25-2015, 08:11 AM
It's not pure random but it's pretty close to it. It's a seeded RNG iirc. In other words, the results are able to be predicted by developers to check whether the game is random enough (otherwise, how would you diagnosis random?).

But as has been stated in many, many threads. RNG is working as expected currently.

clearly they used the same seed on the shuffler as on the charity stream giveaways :)

Altima
07-25-2015, 09:17 AM
I seriously do not believe that it work like pure RNG.

I have played Hex for a couple week and I got screwed more than I play MTG in my entire life.

Svenn
07-25-2015, 09:24 AM
I seriously do not believe that it work like pure RNG.

I have played Hex for a couple week and I got screwed more than I play MTG in my entire life.

That's likely because most players cheat in Magic by not properly shuffling their cards. Most players (some unintentionally) mana weave or just don't shuffle enough to get a true random shuffle. In Hex, the system ensures an actual random shuffle.

knightofeffect
07-25-2015, 10:30 AM
This has been a major point of contention in the past, with several massive topics on it.

I agree, for a while when I first started playing, really the first couple months, it felt like I was getting screwed an incredible amount. Now that I have played thousands of matches, I can confirm that the shuffler is fine, the resource system is significantly more forgiving than MTG (allowing you to accelerate much more quickly from single resource screw), and the mana fixing in limited is fine.

In MTG, most sets only had good mana fixing as rares, or sometimes uncommons in the base set. You could not and didn't want to rely on those in limited anyway. Diamond, wild, and artifact have really solid resource fixing in them at the common level in this meta, more than sufficient.

Yoss
07-25-2015, 10:38 AM
Official article from the guy in charge of it at HXE:
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=34225&highlight=randomization

N3rd4Christ
07-25-2015, 11:16 AM
YNG is what you are experiencing.

Yeti Number Generation!

The odds are never in your favor when a Yeti is involved!

#yetigeddon

stiii
07-25-2015, 11:52 AM
Yes, this game's shuffler is rng.

Though, I will add that this game's resource and threshold system is ALOT more forgiving than Magic's mana system. Magic requires a lot of mana fixers in each set because without them it severely handicaps the player's casting ability. There isn't much need for them in Hex's threshold system (unless you're playing a heavily colored or prismatic deck) since most cards only require a single or double threshold of their required color. As long as you meet the threshold of the card, you will only need the resources to be able to play it afterwards.

Yeah this just isn't true at all. The threshold system makes very little difference to being able to cast your spells. People playing 3+ colour decks in magic do so because there are far more resources fixers. In limited magic decks are 2 colours with a couple of fixers in hex you pretty much never have any. With set 3 there are quite a few double resource cards so you often need double threshold of both your colours to cast everything. This is also true of magic but the difference between having 9/8 and 10/9 sources is pretty big over time.

None of this is due to threshold system it is just the lack of resource fixers.

Vorpal
07-25-2015, 01:44 PM
The vast majority of people playing mtg were doing mana weaving, deliberately or not.

Thus, an automated system that is truly random is going to seem much more harsh.

israel.kendall
07-25-2015, 02:10 PM
I pretty much agree with what Erruk said. I find HEX's resource system much easier to work with.

stiii
07-25-2015, 02:17 PM
I pretty much agree with what Erruk said. I find HEX's resource system much easier to work with.

Well to try and further discussion could you give some examples of this? Magic is full of 3 colour decks and hex is full of 2 colour decks I'm really not seeing how Hex's resource system is helping here.

Makizushi
07-25-2015, 02:22 PM
I seriously do not believe that it work like pure RNG.

I have played Hex for a couple week and I got screwed more than I play MTG in my entire life.

You know what that suggests to me? That it's actually MtG that's not true RNG!

In cases of a real random shuffler, it's statistically very possible for you to get screwed days on end.

israel.kendall
07-25-2015, 02:37 PM
Well to try and further discussion could you give some examples of this? Magic is full of 3 colour decks and hex is full of 2 colour decks I'm really not seeing how Hex's resource system is helping here.

Like if I have 5 resources, only 2 sapphire. I can still play two double threshold sapphire cards that turn whereas in MTG I would have to tap those lands and couldnt play 2 double threshold sapphire.

Diesbudt
07-25-2015, 03:07 PM
Like if I have 5 resources, only 2 sapphire. I can still play two double threshold sapphire cards that turn whereas in MTG I would have to tap those lands and couldnt play 2 double threshold sapphire.

Pretty much. It is subtle but a much bigger fix to any decks that run more than 1 color.

KingGabriel
07-25-2015, 04:16 PM
Yes! ...Next Thread!

stiii
07-25-2015, 07:20 PM
Like if I have 5 resources, only 2 sapphire. I can still play two double threshold sapphire cards that turn whereas in MTG I would have to tap those lands and couldnt play 2 double threshold sapphire.

Yeah this isn't an answer at all. All you did was explain how the hex threshold system works.

You are listing a narrow corner case that almost never comes up as somehow making the mana system a lot more forgiving? How does the system make anything easier to work with either?

N3rd4Christ
07-25-2015, 09:18 PM
Yes! ...Next Thread!


Wise words coming from a ... "King"

Diesbudt
07-25-2015, 11:31 PM
Yeah this isn't an answer at all. All you did was explain how the hex threshold system works.

You are listing a narrow corner case that almost never comes up as somehow making the mana system a lot more forgiving? How does the system make anything easier to work with either?

A corner case? How do you not see how big this helps. In MTG say I only get 1 island in my first 6 resources. That means I can only play 1 island spell card a turn. No matter if my hand is full of them or not.

However with the threshold difference, I can play all my single threshold cards in the same turn as long as I have that 1 threshold. It allows me to combo quicker, or play cards at a different and usually more desirable rate. So instead of just getting resource lucky, I don't have to get proper color resource lucky as well.

It may not be light and day difference, but is in itself aassive difference and one that everyone "oooo" and "aaahhhh"-Ed during the kickstarter wondering how Magic didn't change to this system first as it allows more forgivable scenarios in decks that run more than one color. In limited I have won tournaments tri-shard that I couldn't do in mtg simply because of the threshold system.

Aradon
07-25-2015, 11:41 PM
The most common time the difference comes up is when you're playing limited, and barely holding on to a game because you're stuck on just one shard. When the second shard shows up, you have a hand full of that color that you want to play. In MtG, you still only get one of them. In Hex, you can recover a lot more quickly because you can start emptying out your hand. It's not really a corner case when that happens a lot in limited, and is directly applicable to fixing cases of mana screw, where Hex is just objectively better about recovering from mana screw than MtG is.

israel.kendall
07-26-2015, 12:09 AM
Yeah this isn't an answer at all. All you did was explain how the hex threshold system works.

You are listing a narrow corner case that almost never comes up as somehow making the mana system a lot more forgiving? How does the system make anything easier to work with either?

I don't find it to be a fringe case at all, happens all the time. Not sure there is a way to describe it without "explaining the threshold system".

Zophie
07-26-2015, 12:40 AM
Wise words coming from a ... "King"

#NotMyKing

Also, OP: Yes, but if you pledge allegiance to Zophiria you can use our Bacon Number Generator instead!

mudgee01
07-26-2015, 02:46 AM
I always play 18 land now and 41 cards with usually a mana lyrist dude but I still mulligan every game then get screwed. Its beyond a joke. Getting to the point where I just don't enjoy the game, because I draft cool decks, but never get to play them.

Just played 3 games in a row with 18 land and a mana lyrist. Got 3 red and 4 green cards. Mulligan into 5 lands. Draw 5 more lands. Die.

Next game, draw 2 green 5 red cards. Mullgian into 2 mana and 4 cards. Draw 2 more land then no more.

3rd Game, Draw r/g and 5 cards that cost 4+. Mulligan into 3 red and a green. Never draw another green to get 2 g threshold, die again.

Xexist
07-26-2015, 02:49 AM
I always play 18 land now and 41 cards with usually a mana lyrist dude but I still mulligan every game then get screwed. Its beyond a joke

why not 18 and 40?

mudgee01
07-26-2015, 05:02 AM
18 and 40 is generally too much flood. Regardless, should always draw at least 2/3 in the opening hand. Not 1 as I do every single game for the last 15

Showsni
07-26-2015, 06:26 AM
Bad luck will always happen occasionally, and the times when you get screwed or flooded are a lot more likely to stick in your mind than the times when you draw decently. If you play a large number of games with the correct mana base then you'll average out to good games, but there will always be some outliers on either side. That's how random works. And you might even get a string of bad draws. Statistically, it's (most likely) bound to happen to someone!

Caldera
07-26-2015, 07:26 AM
17 land and 23 spell in MTG never fail me. .

Here's where you ceased being taken seriously by experienced TCG players. Hex's resource system is demonstrably more forgiving than MTG's. (unless you mean casual paper mtg where many people do not realize they are not shuffling adequately). I recall a thread literally hundreds (i think) of pages long on the mtgo boards, where people argued about the shuffler/draws not being random.

You also mentioned no mana fixers in set 3 also. This is just outright false. Shardcall, the 1 mana robot that grabs you any resource, and quite a few others hit the table in my matches so far. I did just fine playing 3 colors several times. I understand that it is frustrating to occasionally lose to screw or flood even in a well built deck. But you win due to that just as often as you lose. It is part of the game. But if you think you (or anyone else) are building completely optimal decks 3 days into the new set release, you may have an overly high opinion of the average player's skills. I know i spent my first few months playing mtg complaining about this sort of thing, before learning to build better decks and minimize it. If 70% of your lost games are due to resource issues, you may want to look at your deck building and especially your mulligan decisions. And failing that, try chess.

Thrawn
07-26-2015, 07:41 AM
Well, was hoping at first that this thread would just die out quickly. But since not...

If anyone would like to do some additional reading on the commonly discussed topics of RNG/mulligans/shards, here are some links to previous discussions already covering much of what is being discussed in this thread -

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=44312
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=44106
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=44099
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=43345
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=42848
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=42576
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=42192
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=38122
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=40959
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=40629
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=40583
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=40483
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=40468
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=40326
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=39965
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=39230
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=39073
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=38956
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=38116
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=38039
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=37054
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=37233
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=37132
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=37024
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=36956
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=36704
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=36444
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=35744
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=36202
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=36099
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=35769
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=33905
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=34132
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=33956
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=33919
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=33885
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=33938
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=29508
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=32253
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=31749
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=31679
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=31647
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=31737
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=31615
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=31492
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=31459
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=31257
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=31178
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=30481
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=31028
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=30945
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=30814
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=30643
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=30728
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=28758
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=28448
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=28206
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=28468
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=27276

strylght
07-26-2015, 07:53 AM
Sticky post request:

Title: "So you're thinking about posting a thread about the shuffler RNG...?"

Content: That list.

stiii
07-26-2015, 11:18 AM
Here's where you ceased being taken seriously by experienced TCG players. Hex's resource system is demonstrably more forgiving than MTG's. (unless you mean casual paper mtg where many people do not realize they are not shuffling adequately). I recall a thread literally hundreds (i think) of pages long on the mtgo boards, where people argued about the shuffler/draws not being random.

You also mentioned no mana fixers in set 3 also. This is just outright false. Shardcall, the 1 mana robot that grabs you any resource, and quite a few others hit the table in my matches so far. I did just fine playing 3 colors several times. I understand that it is frustrating to occasionally lose to screw or flood even in a well built deck. But you win due to that just as often as you lose. It is part of the game. But if you think you (or anyone else) are building completely optimal decks 3 days into the new set release, you may have an overly high opinion of the average player's skills. I know i spent my first few months playing mtg complaining about this sort of thing, before learning to build better decks and minimize it. If 70% of your lost games are due to resource issues, you may want to look at your deck building and especially your mulligan decisions. And failing that, try chess.

Funny how no one can actually do this demonstrating bit. I am rather dubious that the people claiming this ARE experienced magic players because the fact is it very rarely matters.

Set 3 has a far smaller number of fixers than pretty much any magic set which again makes it rather dubious that this is far less of a problem in hex. (obviously never fails is absurd hyperbole)

stiii
07-26-2015, 11:29 AM
A corner case? How do you not see how big this helps. In MTG say I only get 1 island in my first 6 resources. That means I can only play 1 island spell card a turn. No matter if my hand is full of them or not.

However with the threshold difference, I can play all my single threshold cards in the same turn as long as I have that 1 threshold. It allows me to combo quicker, or play cards at a different and usually more desirable rate. So instead of just getting resource lucky, I don't have to get proper color resource lucky as well.

It may not be light and day difference, but is in itself aassive difference and one that everyone "oooo" and "aaahhhh"-Ed during the kickstarter wondering how Magic didn't change to this system first as it allows more forgivable scenarios in decks that run more than one color. In limited I have won tournaments tri-shard that I couldn't do in mtg simply because of the threshold system.

Again with the explaining how hex works. Maybe I need to explain to you how the magic resource system works as it isn't a big help in real games.

It is hardly a shock people who play Hex and don't play magic like the system of the new game they bought into better. It doesn't make it true however. the idea you couldn't do it in magic is absurd. Magic has far more fixers in limited making 3+ colour decks far more viable.

sukebe
07-26-2015, 12:57 PM
Funny how no one can actually do this demonstrating bit. I am rather dubious that the people claiming this ARE experienced magic players because the fact is it very rarely matters.

Set 3 has a far smaller number of fixers than pretty much any magic set which again makes it rather dubious that this is far less of a problem in hex. (obviously never fails is absurd hyperbole)

this has been pointed out to you several times, and that is just in the threads I have have personally read. The threshold system is a huge difference to the mtg mana system. it comes up very often, pretty much every time a person is missing a single threshold for a couple of turns and draws a shard that grants it. Being able to play multiple sapphire cards with a single sapphire threshold is a huge boon that can change the tide of the game. Others have been far more specific and better worded with explaining this so I will just leave it at this I think.

Diesbudt
07-26-2015, 06:55 PM
Again with the explaining how hex works. Maybe I need to explain to you how the magic resource system works as it isn't a big help in real games.

It is hardly a shock people who play Hex and don't play magic like the system of the new game they bought into better. It doesn't make it true however. the idea you couldn't do it in magic is absurd. Magic has far more fixers in limited making 3+ colour decks far more viable.

I played MTG for years, even tournaments. I can 100% say the Hex system is very different and much better in multi color decks. Saying you don't see that makes me believe you don't understand that systems difference very well. But it should be obvious.

stiii
07-26-2015, 07:11 PM
Man Another group of people saying it is vastly different with no real reasoning I'm super convinced this time!

Oh wait it is just more of Hex>>magic because you like Hex and not magic.

stiii
07-26-2015, 07:16 PM
I played MTG for years, even tournaments. I can 100% say the Hex system is very different and much better in multi color decks. Saying you don't see that makes me believe you don't understand that systems difference very well. But it should be obvious.

Even tournaments wow you sure do sound like an expert!

You can say anything and put 100% after it it doesn't make it true. I can reapt this back to you. I can say that the Hex system is functional identical to magic 99% of the time. It makes a very small difference to multi colour and that is massively over shadowed by magic have better resources. You can see this in the fact that magic decks are often 3 colours and almost all Hex decks are 2 colours. Saying you don't see makes me think you don't understand game design very well. And it is obvious.

Exactly the same rubbish except I couldn't help myself and gave some reasoning.

Xexist
07-26-2015, 07:40 PM
Man Another group of people saying it is vastly different with no real reasoning that I will acknowledge, even though its been explained to me over and over. I'm super convinced this time!

Oh wait it is just more of Hex>>magic because you like Hex and not magic.

Fixed that for you.

Diesbudt
07-26-2015, 07:56 PM
Even tournaments wow you sure do sound like an expert!

You can say anything and put 100% after it it doesn't make it true. I can reapt this back to you. I can say that the Hex system is functional identical to magic 99% of the time. It makes a very small difference to multi colour and that is massively over shadowed by magic have better resources. You can see this in the fact that magic decks are often 3 colours and almost all Hex decks are 2 colours. Saying you don't see makes me think you don't understand game design very well. And it is obvious.

Exactly the same rubbish except I couldn't help myself and gave some reasoning.

First you said we didn't play MTG so how could we "know" how it is different. All I did was explain I did play at the tournament level in high school, so I do know both systems.

I have given you as a few others did actual scenarios that shows the difference and why it is more fun/better version of the colored resource system. And we have explained how it is different. Can magic still do multi colored decks? Sure but it requires more color fixing that reduces the fun factor, and gives the resource system a slightly higher RNG portion than Hex. All because threshold vs actual resources.

You are either a blinded fool who doesn't comprehend how these different systems play out with no real experience with such understanding or a forum troll.

Xexist
07-26-2015, 08:01 PM
First you said we didn't play MTG so how could we "know" how it is different. All I did was explain I did play at the tournament level in high school, so I do know both systems.

I have given you as a few others did actual scenarios that shows the difference and why it is more fun/better version of the colored resource system. And we have explained how it is different. Can magic still do multi colored decks? Sure but it requires more color fixing that reduces the fun factor, and gives the resource system a slightly higher RNG portion than Hex. All because threshold vs actual resources.

You are either a blinded fool who doesn't comprehend how these different systems play out with no real experience with such understanding or a forum troll.

I dont believe he is a troll, just misguided or ignorant. I know that sounds offensive but it wasnt meant as such.

stiii
07-26-2015, 08:12 PM
I dont believe he is a troll, just misguided or ignorant. I know that sounds offensive but it wasnt meant as such.

Or maybe I'm right and you are misguided. Weight of numbers is not an argument.

stiii
07-26-2015, 08:12 PM
Fixed that for you.

Again with the repeating things make them right logic. I guess I'll have persuaded you pretty soon at this rate.

Xexist
07-26-2015, 08:19 PM
Again with the repeating things make them right logic. I guess I'll have persuaded you pretty soon at this rate.

You never said 'they werent right' you just kept saying that noone explained how hex did it better (or whatever words you used). Which is bullshit, because over and over people explained to you.

Its a different matter altogether if you think they are wrong. Say that. not "Funny how no one can actually do this demonstrating bit. I am rather dubious that the people claiming this ARE experienced magic players because the fact is it very rarely matters."

Unless your definition of 'rarely' is most others definition of 'often'.

stiii
07-26-2015, 08:20 PM
First you said we didn't play MTG so how could we "know" how it is different. All I did was explain I did play at the tournament level in high school, so I do know both systems.

I have given you as a few others did actual scenarios that shows the difference and why it is more fun/better version of the colored resource system. And we have explained how it is different. Can magic still do multi colored decks? Sure but it requires more color fixing that reduces the fun factor, and gives the resource system a slightly higher RNG portion than Hex. All because threshold vs actual resources.

You are either a blinded fool who doesn't comprehend how these different systems play out with no real experience with such understanding or a forum troll.

Yeah you are right I should stop being so nice.

When I said don't play magic I meant don't play magic at a high enough level to understand the effect of changing the resource system. That you played FNM or whatever isn't enough.

Your actual scenarios come up so rarely that it was nicer to say you haven't played magic rather than now where you are just unable play at a level good enough to comprehend the differences. The Magic resources are significantly better than the Hex resources so saying it needs more fixing is at best irrelevant because you get that for free. Magic decks with 8 dual lands are more stable than Hex decks with 8 fixers because the Magic ones are better at their job. But obviously you ignore that.

And yeah you last line applies to yourself the idea that it is vastly different is a fantasy.

stiii
07-26-2015, 08:25 PM
You never said 'they werent right' you just kept saying that noone explained how hex did it better (or whatever words you used). Which is bullshit, because over and over people explained to you.

Its a different matter altogether if you think they are wrong. Say that. not "Funny how no one can actually do this demonstrating bit. I am rather dubious that the people claiming this ARE experienced magic players because the fact is it very rarely matters."

Unless your definition of 'rarely' is most others definition of 'often'.

People simply repeated over and over how the Hex resource system works. That doesn't show that the system is vastly difference in practise all it does it show there is a difference.

I asked people to explain why it was different so I could explain why they are wrong. If they can't even explain the opening position then there is nothing to refute. It is obvious that I think someone is wrong if I reply like this, there is hardly any point in reply to something I utterly agree with.

Erukk
07-26-2015, 09:49 PM
It doesn't make it true however. the idea you couldn't do it in magic is absurd. Magic has far more fixers in limited making 3+ colour decks far more viable.

And as I said on page 1, Magic has far more mana fixers because they NEED to constantly reprint them in every set to make their mana system work. It's why most of their strong/meta decks are forced to mostly run the current standard's rare duel lands. If they didn't do so, and they only relied on basics, the players' casting abilities would be severely handicapped.

So saying that Magic always has a bunch of mana fixers isn't a plus on their side. It's a minus, because their mana fixers are being used as a crutch to prop up their gameplay.

Malakili
07-26-2015, 09:50 PM
Yeah this isn't an answer at all. All you did was explain how the hex threshold system works.

You are listing a narrow corner case that almost never comes up as somehow making the mana system a lot more forgiving? How does the system make anything easier to work with either?

The far more common example to come up is you splash for a color, have one threshold of it, and can cast as many of that colored spell as you can spend resources on. This stuff comes up practically every draft. It's especially noticeable in the midgame when you maybe 3 of one threshold and 1 or 2 of another and a hand full of spells all of one color. In Magic a hand full of blue spells and 1 island is going to be a problem. In Hex, you're pretty much good to go. This is not a corner case, it's a pretty major fundamental difference that comes up all the time.

stiii
07-26-2015, 10:03 PM
And as I said on page 1, Magic has far more mana fixers because they NEED to constantly reprint them in every set to make their mana system work. It's why most of their strong/meta decks are forced to mostly run the current standard's rare duel lands. If they didn't do so, and they only relied on basics, the players' casting abilities would be severely handicapped.

So saying that Magic always has a bunch of mana fixers isn't a plus on their side. It's a minus, because their mana fixers are being used as a crutch to prop up their gameplay.

And like I've said a bunch of things - got any evidence of this?

So yes magic decks need these lands to support 3 colour decks. But hex doesn't have pretty much any 3 colour decks so how exactly is this a point in Hex's favour?


If you have a magic deck with eight 2 colour resources and a Hex deck with also eight 2 colour resources then if Magic decks need them more the situation should be that the Hex deck would be more consistent. but that isn't true! the Magic deck is less likely to be colour screwed because the Magic resources are superior. The hex system lets you recover fast from being screwed but magic resources mean you are less likely to get screwed in the first place.

stiii
07-26-2015, 10:13 PM
The far more common example to come up is you splash for a color, have one threshold of it, and can cast as many of that colored spell as you can spend resources on. This stuff comes up practically every draft. It's especially noticeable in the midgame when you maybe 3 of one threshold and 1 or 2 of another and a hand full of spells all of one color. In Magic a hand full of blue spells and 1 island is going to be a problem. In Hex, you're pretty much good to go. This is not a corner case, it's a pretty major fundamental difference that comes up all the time.

Practically every draft!? In the vast majority of drafts I've played the other player has only been two colours. So no it doesn't come up in practically every draft, such absurd hyperbole is pointless.

So again you are listing a narrow corner case and claiming it happens all the time. You simply don't have that many cheap spells that you get screwed and then have a hand to dump two at a time. If this does happen a lot to you then you should stop drafting 3 colour decks with no fixing and so many 1/2 drops

Erukk
07-26-2015, 11:06 PM
And like I've said a bunch of things - got any evidence of this?

So yes magic decks need these lands to support 3 colour decks.

Since you just said yourself that Magic needs all these fixers to even support a 3 color deck, I think you kinda answered your own question.


But hex doesn't have pretty much any 3 colour decks so how exactly is this a point in Hex's favour?

I wasn't arguing in Hex's favor in that post. I was simply arguing the point that bringing up the vast amount of Magic's mana fixers doesn't really lend itself to the argument that it has the better resource system because of them. There is only a vast amount because they are used as crutch, sometimes a very expensive one in case of the new set of rare duel/fetch lands in each new block, to make their gameplay for 2 color decks stable and 3+ color decks even viable at all.

Well... Anyway... I'm done with this thread. It'll just got all broken record again.

tyra
07-26-2015, 11:22 PM
guys, you are not making progress here.
Yes, in theory, the Hex TCG resource system is a bit "better" (if you define it that way), but if you are looking at actual cards, say the last 2 years, MtG has way superior mana fixing.

for example Set 1
Shards of Fate and Infusion Device
The latter is pretty bad. Shards of Fate basically is Evolving Wilds. Mtg often has a COMMON (or even guaranteed, as in Fate Reforged) dual land cycle. And yes, this difference CAN (I don't know that it does) make up for the fact that Hex's threshold is a bit more forgiving.

Altima
07-27-2015, 01:03 AM
Mana fixer in MTG usually help thinning your deck which help you face less RNG problem. In Hex it usually give out resource without removing it from your deck which make you have too many lands.

Saying that mana fixer is not needed for limited format in Hex is not true. Both systems are different. One non-basic land card in MTG can generate more than one colors after they come into play while in Hex resouce can generate only one fixed color. Moreover, problem that you cannot cast two same color spell in a single turn because you have only one land of that color is not happened very often and far less annoying compare to flood/screw problem.

Cainhu
07-27-2015, 03:29 AM
I think card draw in HEX in not really RNG, no matter how many times the devs says it is, as corner cases happen all the time.

I played tabletop xCG games for many years, as well as several digital ones. Having bad draws happens, but nowhere near as I experience in HEX.

Also, I think the basic resource system (MTG basic lands vs. HEX basic shards) is better in HEX, but additional multi-color support is almost unavailable and/or weak in this game's limited setting.

BlackRoger
07-27-2015, 04:46 AM
I've seen nothing to indicate that bad RNG happens more in Hex then in MTG, I have some bad draws, but most are either good or ok-ish.
During the Alpha days the community did some large scale RNG testing and the results indicated the RNG is working as expected.

As for the fixing in MTG, yes, it is leagues better, the only question is wether that's a good thing.
I've seen a 4 color modern deck that's splashing for kiki-jiki, which requires triple red.
When you get to the point where decks can play 4 colors reliably using no special fixing aside from lands... the system is broken.
I do agree that maybe the fixing in limited can be improved, I'm not a fan of the artifact fixers we've been getting so far.

Cernz
07-27-2015, 05:33 AM
i dont know how rng it is but there is a confirmed rule with this shuffler:

keep a hand with many shards -> get more shards :)

Malakili
07-27-2015, 05:56 AM
guys, you are not making progress here.
Yes, in theory, the Hex TCG resource system is a bit "better" (if you define it that way), but if you are looking at actual cards, say the last 2 years, MtG has way superior mana fixing.


There is no doubt the lands in Magic are way better than the resources in Hex. We were talking about how the system works, not about the cards that are printed. If you want to argue that hex needs better resources, I'm all in support of that, but it has nothing to do with a discussion of the system itself.

Fred
07-27-2015, 06:44 AM
I haven't played MtG for quite a while, but if, like you say, MtG has a lot more mana fixing in every set now, doesn't that mean that MtG's mana system is totally broken? If it's not broken, why would they need to fix it in every single set?

tyra
07-27-2015, 06:46 AM
well, maybe you should reread the criticism Stii brought forward, then.
There is no doubt that the Hex resource system is "better". But since the lands in MtG are so much better, the "felt" effect of RNG in Hex might be stronger than in MtG.
Or at least, that could be one reason. I for one think the shuffler is fine and most of the Magic players offering critical opinions of Hex RNG just don't shuffle enough in RL.

tyra
07-27-2015, 06:58 AM
What I am saying is the following: There are two different discussions going on at the same time.

First:
Q: Is the RNG in Hex really RNG, because so many floods and screws are happening.
A: Yes, it is really RNG, floods and screws are part of randomness.

At this point, the discussion could be over. It's not, however, because reasons. Which is where the second "discussion" starts, which is entirely not necessary.

Rebuttal: But I play Magic and it does not happen that often in Magic.

If true, this might have different reasons. For example, RL randomization is very difficult to achieve. This is why people that play other card games, especially NOT at the highest levels or without the needed frequency, feel that Hex produces more Flood/Screw than the other card games. Which might be true or not, but I will come to that later.

Rebuttal 2: Oh noes, he mentioned the other card game. Can you not see that our game is vastly superior? *Explains how Hex threshold is better than MtG mana*

Not the point. The questions is whether more screws or floods are happening in Hex than in MtG, while a good randomization is achieved in both. That might actually be the case, because MtG has WAY superior fixing, which is basically everything Stii pointed out.

EDIT: It is obvious to everyone that the Hex resource/threshold system is "better" than the Mana system of MtG, if you define "better" with less variance. But that is just the system, without looking at any cards that might exist in any game.
To be extreme, if there was a magic land that could produce every single color and could be included up to 30 times in every deck, the MtG mana system would still be worse than Hex's. But since the fixing would be so vastly superior, color screws would never ever happen.

Thand
07-27-2015, 12:13 PM
The Hex resource system is objectively more forgiving than MtG's in its core functionality. MtG has much more fixing in its lands because it needs them more than Hex does. One could reasonably argue that Hex still could use more fixing in limited, but I'd rather draft non-resource cards that actually do fun things than be forced to use my picks for lands just to get my deck to function.

Hextra
07-27-2015, 01:19 PM
First:
Q: Is the RNG in Hex really RNG, because so many floods and screws are happening.
A: Yes, it is really RNG, floods and screws are part of randomness.

At this point, the discussion could be over. It's not, however, because reasons. Which is where the second "discussion" starts, which is entirely not necessary.


No, these threads go nowhere because people talk about different things:

One side "complains" that the shuffler is not fair (e.g. that they are flooded/screwed more than they should, or that the card distribution in their deck is not as random as it should);
The other side replies that the shuffler uses a PRNG, hence it is fine. At this point they usually link to the article about randomization and close the topic;


The problem is that two are not mutually exclusive: It is very easy to implement an unfair shuffle when using a PRNG, and the article itself does not provide enough details to determine whether CZE's implementation is correct. The author seem to think so since he mentions "feeling really good about it", but it is impossible to know for sure. Given the number of bugs currently in the game, I would err on the side of skepticism. Implementing a fair shuffle is really tricky due to various traps, none of which are mentioned in the article.



During the Alpha days the community did some large scale RNG testing and the results indicated the RNG is working as expected.


To be blunt that community test was a joke and a complete waste of time (no offense intended.) First it was not "large scale". It was small (10,000 draws or less IIRC), anyone could have polluted the data set, and it was not even clear what was being tested. Second, you cannot prove that a shuffler is correct through testing. That is not what tests are for. All a test can do is tell you whether the property you are testing for is verified (surprising, I know.) The only way to prove that the shuffler is correct is to look at the code and check the math. It is not hard if you know what you are doing, and impossible if you don't.

Even if the shuffler is indeed correctly implemented, that does not mean that the shuffles are fair. If you use the shuffler incorrectly, they won't be. That's the tricky part.

Tazelbain
07-27-2015, 01:35 PM
To be blunt that community test was a joke and a complete waste of time (no offense intended.) First it was not "large scale". It was small (10,000 draws or less IIRC), anyone could have polluted the data set, and it was not even clear what was being tested. Second, you cannot prove that a shuffler is correct through testing. That is not what tests are for. All a test can do is tell you whether the property you are testing for is verified (surprising, I know.) The only way to prove that the shuffler is correct is to look at the code and check the math. It is not hard if you know what you are doing, and impossible if you don't.

Even if the shuffler is indeed correctly implemented, that does not mean that the shuffles are fair. If you use the shuffler incorrectly, they won't be. That's the tricky part.
Hex isn't going to open their code. You don't trust developer who do have access. You don't trust a player test of the shuffler. What's left to do? Launch a KS to pay for independent audit?

Mahes
07-27-2015, 02:06 PM
The funny thing is there is something a player can do about it. After having voiced their concern, they can leave.

This game is not for everyone. There are players who enjoy random and there are players who enjoy control. This games incorporates both but if you feel as though one thing overwhelms the other then you have a choice. I understand the frustration of the system and there is no real clear answer.

Here is a good quote for those that prefer full control in a game. It is actually fitting though I would add sometimes into it.

Joshua: " A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?"

NOBLEStarshield
07-27-2015, 02:32 PM
Locking thread.