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Elwinz
07-26-2015, 01:34 AM
Just saying i am mad and i hate you kimset foryour super trolling,
Opening legendary chest and getting 2 UNCOMMON worthles equipments. SHGould that happen?
I know rare chest is big let dowm, but common legendary ?

I normaly dont come to forums to rant but this was just super bad.

Xexist
07-26-2015, 01:59 AM
Just saying i am mad and i hate you kimset foryour super trolling,
Opening legendary chest and getting 2 UNCOMMON worthles equipments. SHGould that happen?
I know rare chest is big let dowm, but common legendary ?

I normaly dont come to forums to rant but this was just super bad.

You not the only one who thinks chest loot tables need tweaking.

regomar
07-26-2015, 03:43 AM
You not the only one who thinks chest loot tables need tweaking.

I stopped opening mine for now. Feels like it's not worth the risk opening anything above common with the way the tables are now. My luck with random spins tends to be bad in the first place, I'm not sure I could handle opening a legendary and getting worthless junk.

israel.kendall
07-26-2015, 04:10 AM
I don't think they should change the loot table since its already released, but I hope they take note and make some changes to chest loot tables with set 4.

Zophie
07-26-2015, 04:39 AM
You not the only one who thinks chest loot tables need tweaking.

If by "tweaking" you mean "a complete and total overhaul for all chests above common" then yeah I agree.

But yeah like israel said it's probably far too late to change anything now, we can only hope they rethink chests in Set 4.

israel.kendall
07-26-2015, 04:56 AM
I think common also needs an overhaul. Common loot is too good, and makes the other loot from higher chests seem less awesome.

Kaiba_Graysoul
07-26-2015, 06:10 AM
I said this a while back they should not have fallen into the destiny trap, which it kinda feels like they have.

Kasbark
07-26-2015, 07:52 AM
Yeah, they really messed up on this one.

Chest dropping gear 2 tiers below them is horrible. When you spend 120K gold to get a primal, it sucks so hard that it can have rare gear in it. Same goes for legendary and rare chests. They really need to change the loot-tables so they can't drop low tier equipment any more. Make them drop Stardust or PVE cards instead.

MatWith1T
07-26-2015, 09:15 AM
I'm kinda torn on this one. I just kinda said screw it and burned through 700,000 gold upgrading chests and popping them open, so I am INCREDIBLY familiar with the sting of opening a chest to get disproportionately awful rewards inside.

At the same time, I did manage to get a good number of legendaries and AA, and I really don't want chest loot to spit these out so easily that they're worthless.

The real "I just got screwed" feeling comes from getting the same piece of equipment for the 10th time. They are so ubiquitous that you know you are never selling them for more than pennies. It is essentially an empty chest. Stardust is disappointing but at least I can use it. Even gold would be a partial recoup of money spent.

Hoping future loot tables get re-weighted to make equipment something we'd actually want instead of a Zonk prize

ossuary
07-26-2015, 09:58 AM
Guys, having a higher rarity chest was never meant to be a guarantee of getting X item or X rarity of item. It's increased chance, rather than guarantee. Cory has been saying for years now that the legendary equipment and the rarest stuff in chests was meant to be super chasey. Getting uncommon or rare items in high level chests is always going to be a possibility.

LNQ
07-26-2015, 10:01 AM
If the higher rarity chests weren't so INCREDIBLY expensive to obtain, that would be ok, ossuary. But considering that a Primal chest is worth more than a primal pack(!!!) and you can get rubbish from it, there is something VERY wrong with the system.

x78089
07-26-2015, 10:03 AM
Guys, having a higher rarity chest was never meant to be a guarantee of getting X item or X rarity of item. It's increased chance, rather than guarantee. Cory has been saying for years now that the legendary equipment and the rarest stuff in chests was meant to be super chasey. Getting uncommon or rare items in high level chests is always going to be a possibility.

I think you have good intentions, but this post is about feeling not objectivity. Objectively, you are correct. But, it feels bad the way the system is currently designed. They should make the higher end chests rarer to spawn and upgrade and guarantee loot versus they way it is now. Just my opinion, but I have a tough time disagreeing with the OP.

Armies
07-26-2015, 10:04 AM
well maybe the price people sell primal packs should fall quite a bit if the prizes they offer are not worth very much which means less people will spend gold on spinning chests to get primal chests which will make demand for gold go down which in turn will make the gold to plat ratio fluctuate in favor of plat I am all for this!

MatWith1T
07-26-2015, 10:51 AM
Guys, having a higher rarity chest was never meant to be a guarantee of getting X item or X rarity of item. It's increased chance, rather than guarantee. Cory has been saying for years now that the legendary equipment and the rarest stuff in chests was meant to be super chasey. Getting uncommon or rare items in high level chests is always going to be a possibility.

When everyone was complaining about the WoF being too expensive to spin higher end chests, my argument was always that it was an impossible claim to make without knowing the contents. People made the counter argument that from a game design perspective, it doesn't matter what the calculated Expected Value is, that if it constantly feels like you are losing, it is not a good game feature.

Now that we know the contents of chests and the high probability of chests being a bust, I am of the opinion that both are now true... High end chest spins are too expensive and it overwhelmingly results in a sense that you lost.

Chase stuff needs to be chasey, the issue lies with the 'consolation' prizes... Add gold, add packs, and something besides repetitive junk gear.

Lafoote
07-26-2015, 12:13 PM
The other issue that may come up is the number of super chasey items. I've rolled hundreds of shards chests and have yet to pop a single water or air elemental. I'm not afraid to spend money on games, I double kickstarted. However, once this thing really gets rolling and we're looking at 3 sets a year. There will be 10 cards in each set which are practically impossible to gain, and you need 4 of each...

Now I've spent hundreds on packs, then I have to spend another couple hundred to get the PVE cards...

If I think the costs of collection may be getting excessive, you should be very worried.

Selanius
07-26-2015, 01:51 PM
I don't think they should change the loot table since its already released, but I hope they take note and make some changes to chest loot tables with set 4.

I heartily agree with this.

Vorpal
07-26-2015, 02:03 PM
Just saying i am mad and i hate you kimset foryour super trolling,
Opening legendary chest and getting 2 UNCOMMON worthles equipments. SHGould that happen?
I know rare chest is big let dowm, but common legendary ?

I normaly dont come to forums to rant but this was just super bad.

It is super bad. Horrible design.

It is an exact analogue to the Destiny engram situation, where you could pull lower level rarity things from your engram. People absolutely HATED it. They put in a lot of work to get a high rarity engram/chest, and opened it, and it had useless crap inside that belonged to a much lower rarity chest. Naturally there was plenty of useless crap that could be in the chest even if it didn't get downgraded one or two levels, but downgrading it one or two levels after all the work put into attaining it in the first place really rubbed people the wrong way.

Destiny soon changed it, as that practice was universally reviled and despised by the playerbase. Hopefully Hex will give the chests a needed tweaking soon.


I said this a while back they should not have fallen into the destiny trap, which it kinda feels like they have.

Yeah, I can't believe with Destiny's example (making this EXACT system, realizing it was horrible, swiftly changing it) they went ahead and repeated Destiny's mistakes instead of learning from their example. Somebody at Hex must play Destiny, surely? :D


At the same time, I did manage to get a good number of legendaries and AA, and I really don't want chest loot to spit these out so easily that they're worthless.

As pointed out, they should simply droop stardust instead. Stardust is too hard to get now anyway, IMO. EA was once supposed to be part of the double backs, now you have to pay a LOOOOOT of gold to EA high rarity cards.

A legendary chest giving you two legendary stardust instead of two pieces of uncommon equipment would be a massive step in the right direction. Heck, even two rare stardust is a huge improvement.

Vorpal
07-26-2015, 02:09 PM
Guys, having a higher rarity chest was never meant to be a guarantee of getting X item or X rarity of item. It's increased chance, rather than guarantee. Cory has been saying for years now that the legendary equipment and the rarest stuff in chests was meant to be super chasey.

Yep, Destiny devs said the same thing. Realized the system was horrible upon implementing it and changed it. Hopefully Hex follows suit.

There are still very chasey things in Destiny, even with engrams not being able to downgrade even a single level, let alone two. Hex can obviously avoid downgrading without removing chase items. Just substitute rare stardust for anything uncommon in a legendary chest, done.


When everyone was complaining about the WoF being too expensive to spin higher end chests, my argument was always that it was an impossible claim to make without knowing the contents. People made the counter argument that from a game design perspective, it doesn't matter what the calculated Expected Value is, that if it constantly feels like you are losing, it is not a good game feature.

Yes. Current system is militantly anti fun. It is why it was changed in Destiny. And in Destiny, you didn't spend tons of $$ getting the chests in the first place, so the sting of failing the RNG roll in Hex is even worse.

First you have to succeed in the RNG to get or upgrade the pack to legendary level.
Then you have to succeed in the RNG roll to not be downgraded to uncommon.
Then you have to succeed in the RNG roll to not be downgraded to rare.
Then you have to succeed in the RNG roll to actually get something good and chasy.

Too many RNG barriers players have to hop through, and snatching away the intended/desired rarity at the last second after many barriers have already been passed through feels bad.

Simply make rare chests rarer, and make them only drop items of the appropriate rarity. Problem solved, and players feel better.

Selanius
07-26-2015, 02:33 PM
Yep, Destiny devs said the same thing. Realized the system was horrible upon implementing it and changed it. Hopefully Hex follows suit.

There are still very chasey things in Destiny, even with engrams not being able to downgrade even a single level, let alone two. Hex can obviously avoid downgrading without removing chase items. Just substitute rare stardust for anything uncommon in a legendary chest, done.



Yes. Current system is militantly anti fun. It is why it was changed in Destiny. And in Destiny, you didn't spend tons of $$ getting the chests in the first place, so the sting of failing the RNG roll in Hex is even worse.

First you have to succeed in the RNG to get or upgrade the pack to legendary level.
Then you have to succeed in the RNG roll to not be downgraded to uncommon.
Then you have to succeed in the RNG roll to not be downgraded to rare.
Then you have to succeed in the RNG roll to actually get something good and chasy.

Too many RNG barriers players have to hop through, and snatching away the intended/desired rarity at the last second after many barriers have already been passed through feels bad.

Simply make rare chests rarer, and make them only drop items of the appropriate rarity. Problem solved, and players feel better.

This solution would also help with the price of gold which is WAAAAYYY too high. When it is more profitable to play the F2P section of the game than the P2P in a TCG something is wrong.

bizznach
07-26-2015, 03:18 PM
you can get at least AA rares out of common chests so makes sense to me that legendary and primal can give crap...especially that the common chests are so cheep

Mejis
07-26-2015, 03:35 PM
Interesting to hear about Destiny. I had no interest in that game so had no knowledge about said engram system.

I hope at some point we hear from the devs on their opinions of the chest system and whether they think it needs tweaking or if it's a flat-out never going to happen situation.

Selanius
07-26-2015, 03:37 PM
Interesting to hear about Destiny. I had no interest in that game so had no knowledge about said engram system.

I hope at some point we hear from the devs on their opinions of the chest system and whether they think it needs tweaking or if it's a flat-out never going to happen situation.

Part of me thinks they knew chests were going to be a big disappointment because they didn't give us a bunch of information about them pre-patch and when they did give us an update it was abut chest design in a very general sense rather than specifics.

Xexist
07-26-2015, 03:43 PM
Part of me thinks they knew chests were going to be a big disappointment because they didn't give us a bunch of information about them pre-patch and when they did give us an update it was abut chest design in a very general sense rather than specifics.

I find it hard to believe there was some boardroom meeting where it was said 'They are going to hate these chests, lets just release it and hope noone notices how bad it is!'

HitoZ
07-26-2015, 03:55 PM
I always thought that when they said legendary gear can only be obtained in legendary or primal chests to be a guaranteed drop. I also understand getting 1 tier higher loot from the chest you've opened, because that's fun and makes you happy right?

So what was the thought proccess when they decided that chests can drop lower rarity equipment than the chest's rarity? As this thread suggests it's anything but fun. You want to make people throw money/gold at the game not sit on it.

ryuukan
07-26-2015, 03:57 PM
the awful loot tables are probably Chark's revenge on the playerbase after seeing initial reaction to his awful card

israel.kendall
07-26-2015, 04:00 PM
I remember the engrams in Destiny, but feel they were a little different in that an engrams showed a diagram blueprint that looked exactly like a piece of equipment of that rarity. This made a stronger impact as everyone expected to get what was depicted on the engrams icon. That being said I still thing this needs revamp, but its not on the same level as the Destiny thing IMO.

Xexist
07-26-2015, 04:02 PM
the awful loot tables are probably Chark's revenge on the playerbase after seeing initial reaction to his awful card

lol. His card actually helped me win a gauntlet.

Vorpal
07-26-2015, 04:21 PM
Part of me thinks they knew chests were going to be a big disappointment because they didn't give us a bunch of information about them pre-patch and when they did give us an update it was abut chest design in a very general sense rather than specifics.

I doubt they thought we would be disappointed in chests. I imagine they legitimately thought it was a good system.

The Destiny devs implemented the EXACT SAME SYSTEM and they said all the same things in its defense that Hex devs have said, that they thought it would make rare loot more chasy, make loot more exciting, etc. They didn't realize how bad it made players feel and how unfun it made the engram experience.

Vorpal
07-26-2015, 04:21 PM
lol. His card actually helped me win a gauntlet.

Ha, same here! It was super stressful, and I got lucky as hell and topdicked what I needed to use all my resourced 3 turns in a row, but it was fun having my 18-6 Chark rolling around.

Xexist
07-26-2015, 04:26 PM
topdicked.

Easy there tiger, I dont care HOW Chark helped you. I actually didnt have cards to play to use my resources. it was more like... I had enough troops to chump block where he had few troops (I was also able to shift speed onto him, which helped)

spankydonkey
07-26-2015, 04:52 PM
I've only really have a problem with the primal chests.
Considering there's no other way of getting them, other than spending gold rolling.
The loot table was so very poorly thought out.
IMO there should be a much better chance of getting the good stuff, if not nailed on.
There should of been nothing in them that you can get from lower chests.
So just sleeves, Legendary AA's, Promo dust, Legendary PvE cards, that's it nothing else.
Then when you finally get one & open it, you will feel it's been worth all the gold spent getting it.
It will have the WOW factor & not WTF is that factor!!
Guess it's all to late now, no way it can be changed, to many people have opened them up.
There would be a lot of very salty players if they changed them now.

Vorpal
07-26-2015, 05:04 PM
Looking at my card collection, I think I'd need about 100 promo dust to AA everything I want to. Primals could contain promo dust instead of any thing any other chest has, and make people vastly, vastly happier. It wouldn't make the chasy promo stuff any less rare, either.

Soken
07-26-2015, 09:04 PM
Looking at my card collection, I think I'd need about 100 promo dust to AA everything I want to. Primals could contain promo dust instead of any thing any other chest has, and make people vastly, vastly happier. It wouldn't make the chasy promo stuff any less rare, either.

I would have been happy with promo dust than the crap i got from my 3 primals

hex_colin
07-26-2015, 10:04 PM
You absolutely, 100% guaranteed, cannot pull anything at Uncommon rarity from Primal chests. Anyone who thinks they did is mistaken. Even multiple Rare results is very, very unlikely.

IMHO, the only reason to open Primal chests is really the sleeves. My personal results suggests that 10-15 chests is the sweet spot for getting all 3 of them.

Xexist
07-26-2015, 10:12 PM
You absolutely, 100% guaranteed, cannot pull anything at Uncommon rarity from Primal chests. Anyone who thinks they did is mistaken. Even multiple Rare results is very, very unlikely.

IMHO, the only reason to open Primal chests is really the sleeves. My personal results suggests that 10-15 chests is the sweet spot for getting all 3 of them.

Ug. I only had 2 primals and no sleeves. Will cost a fortune to buy primals. No kidding they will be chased and can't even be sold if you get them! ( not that I would, as a sleeve lover)

dogmod
07-26-2015, 10:33 PM
You absolutely, 100% guaranteed, cannot pull anything at Uncommon rarity from Primal chests. Anyone who thinks they did is mistaken. Even multiple Rare results is very, very unlikely.

IMHO, the only reason to open Primal chests is really the sleeves. My personal results suggests that 10-15 chests is the sweet spot for getting all 3 of them.

The number one hexer states that if you already have the sleeves then you shouldn't open primals. One of the things Cory was so excited about being chase and awesome... Kinda sad that is the case imo. I get it that you are stating from an economic stand point it makes more sense to sell the primal if you have the sleeves and buy the items you would want but that is still pretty lame in my book.

hex_colin
07-26-2015, 10:43 PM
The number one hexer states that if you already have the sleeves then you shouldn't open primals. One of the things Cory was so excited about being chase and awesome... Kinda sad that is the case imo. I get it that you are stating from an economic stand point it makes more sense to sell the primal if you have the sleeves and buy the items you would want but that is still pretty lame in my book.

Not really. Unless you're me ;), you wouldn't keep opening packs (outside of Limited) if you already had all the cards you needed. It's set up so that you generally get what you need from some number of chests (allowing for variance) and then they're no longer personally useful.

Also, and this is important, I don't need to chase equipment. They are an AWESOME source of chasey Legendary equipment, but that's irrelevant to me. And, given their current "price", it's probably a better idea to buy what you need to fill your gaps. That'll likely change significantly when more Gold/Stardust faucets are in the game.

There needs to be a balance between getting cool stuff and there being so much cool stuff to get that it's beyond prohibitive for even the OCD collectors.

dogmod
07-26-2015, 10:47 PM
Not really. Unless you're me ;), you wouldn't keep opening packs (outside of Limited) if you already had all the cards you needed. It's set up so that you generally get what you need from some number of chests (allowing for variance) and then they're no longer personally useful.

Also, and this is important, I don't need to chase equipment. They are an AWESOME source of chasey Legendary equipment, but that's irrelevant to me. And, given their current "price", it's probably a better idea to buy what you need to fill your gaps. That'll likely change significantly when more Gold/Stardust faucets are in the game.

There needs to be a balance between getting cool stuff and there being so much cool stuff to get that it's beyond prohibitive for even the OCD collectors.

So you came on to post how you don't think opening primals is worth it but you were only specifically referencing yourself and I am assuming other producers?

Yoss
07-26-2015, 10:47 PM
Is it possible to mail chests (AKA trade) yet?

Yoss
07-26-2015, 10:49 PM
So you came on to post how you don't think opening primals is worth it but you were only specifically referencing yourself and I am assuming other producers?

Uh, he said it's totally worth it until you get the sleeves. I doubt there are enough primals around to give us all every sleeve, therefore there is good reason for trading rather than opening in some cases.

dogmod
07-26-2015, 10:53 PM
Uh, he said it's totally worth it until you get the sleeves. I doubt there are enough primals around to give us all every sleeve, therefore there is good reason for trading rather than opening in some cases.

And that is why when I replied to him I made the caveat that I understand it may make economic sense to do so but I still think it is lame. He still disagreed with me and the reasons he listed seemed to primarily reference the fact that he already has all the equipment as why I was wrong. Seems to me that logic only applies to him and other producers.

hex_colin
07-26-2015, 10:54 PM
So you came on to post how you don't think opening primals is worth it but you were only specifically referencing yourself and I am assuming other producers?

That's not what I said. I very clearly stated it was worth opening a reasonable amount of them (i.e. in my case enough to complete my sleeves collection), but that after that it's much less worth it. I provided my opinion.

I've long been an advocate of waiting and seeing what was in the chests before making personal decisions about whether of not they're worth the effort/risk. You can find 50+ posts in my history advising folks to only roll common chests, and only enough to get the WOF sleeves (if that's a goal they have). They were never going to be all things to all people. I set my expectations appropriately - that they were a small bonus on top of the cards I'd be buying anyway.

Voormas
07-26-2015, 11:14 PM
Yea the thing about the overall cost of rolling / acquiring chests is that this is an evolving situation; I'm sure Chark has his grand design for how the economy will one day operate but it's gotta 1) get more systems in place which requires time and dev work and will always be incremental and 2) get more players in the door experiencing the game and getting something out of it - with number 1 you don't want to go back and change things later when more systems are in place so you get situations where we feel like gold is really expensive / etc, hopefully though that is balanced against the need to also pull off number 2 (I don't think "you get free bonus stuff on top of your packs but sometimes it isn't as good as some other result you could have gotten" is enough to scare away new players?)

deejay
07-27-2015, 01:45 AM
My personal results suggests that 10-15 chests is the sweet spot for getting all 3 of them.

Those sleeves are pretty hard to chase down - 17 set 1 primal chests and still missing one sleeves (12 set primal chests 2 primals and missing two sleeves but I now hold out hope that I get a run of sleeves in my next couple). Better go sell some things to fund this habit...

TheSwallowsNest
07-27-2015, 01:55 AM
Also, and this is important, I don't need to chase equipment. They are an AWESOME source of chasey Legendary equipment, but that's irrelevant to me. And, given their current "price", it's probably a better idea to buy what you need to fill your gaps. That'll likely change significantly when more Gold/Stardust faucets are in the game.



They need better gold faucets for sure.

My main complaint with rolling legendary chests is that assuming a normal 6000g/ 1 hour arena run, it takes 5 hours to acquire the gold to roll a 30,000g chest.

Even if your a huge whale and pay people platinum to buy gold, someone somewhere spent five hours of thier life just to roll that chest once.

This unavoidable time investment is far too excessive.

Roy_G
07-27-2015, 02:20 AM
I'm an OCD collector and considering at the moment giving up on getting all the sleeves and 4 of everything.I'm still trying to get the scraptech brawler sleeves from set 2,since the last patch i bought and spun chests without getting the uncommon or rare sleeves from set 3 or the scraptech brawler sleeves.Plus most of the time the chest content is disappointing and won't sell on the ah even for primal and legendary.

If I add to it the cost of spinning the the high value of gold and the time it takes to grind it all with the low odds of success and low expectation of prizes it's not fun anymore.

Edit:Just got the scraptech brawler sleeves,it took lots of gold,plat chests and time.It passed into not too rare and not fun and I'm not looking forward to get the other primal chest sleeves I'm missing.
Also opening every common,uncommon and rare chest is disappointing because of the loot table that give one low value equipment after another.

Krond
07-27-2015, 08:38 AM
My biggest gripe is when you "win" a paid spin.

Pay 30,000 gold for the opportunity to pay an additional 30,000? Really? I'd much prefer the chest just give me the "Kismet unknowable" response rather than ask me to waste more gold.

It just feels so rotten. With EA unlocks, we have enough of a gold sink, we don't need the additional gold sink of "screw your 30k, dump another 30k and MAYBE you'll get something."

hex_colin
07-27-2015, 08:42 AM
My biggest gripe is when you "win" a paid spin.

Pay 30,000 gold for the opportunity to pay an additional 30,000? Really? I'd much prefer the chest just give me the "Kismet unknowable" response rather than ask me to waste more gold.

It just feels so rotten. With EA unlocks, we have enough of a gold sink, we don't need the additional gold sink of "screw your 30k, dump another 30k and MAYBE you'll get something."

You don't have to do anything. You don't even have to spin it the first time. If that's how you feel, just open them?

plaguedealer
07-27-2015, 08:52 AM
The big issue in my mind is that it is hard to evaluate what is in the chests because we do not have a full fledged pve experience.

It is very possible that when campaign hits people will have a major want for something like wildwood beastcaller. Right now it is not economical to open chests at all because things are going so cheap.

Krond
07-27-2015, 08:57 AM
I understand that I can open them, but I like the feeling of never having passed on the spin. I know, it's a little goofy, but that's how I want to play it.

Being that I don't want to forego any possible spins, it feels terrible to be asked to pay to spin again.

I may not represent the majority, but those who I have spoken to all feel the same way; winning a paid spin does NOT feel like winning, it feels like getting screwed. Now HEX doesn't need to bend to my whims, but I would enjoy the chest experience as a whole a lot more if I knew that I only had to pay the fee once per chest.

Svenn
07-27-2015, 09:07 AM
I understand that I can open them, but I like the feeling of never having passed on the spin. I know, it's a little goofy, but that's how I want to play it.

Being that I don't want to forego any possible spins, it feels terrible to be asked to pay to spin again.

I may not represent the majority, but those who I have spoken to all feel the same way; winning a paid spin does NOT feel like winning, it feels like getting screwed. Now HEX doesn't need to bend to my whims, but I would enjoy the chest experience as a whole a lot more if I knew that I only had to pay the fee once per chest.
But if you only paid once per chest then you would lose more. I don't get this whole "paid spin is bad" thing. It's better than getting a no-spin. It is a "loss" but it's a better loss than just losing the spin completely.

Krond
07-27-2015, 09:16 AM
But if you only paid once per chest then you would lose more. I don't get this whole "paid spin is bad" thing. It's better than getting a no-spin. It is a "loss" but it's a better loss than just losing the spin completely.


Yes, I understand that objectively, the opportunity of paying for something is better than no opportunity.

But I still feel like it's bad when my gold is spent, and I get nothing in my hands, especially on the Legendary chests.

It seems to me that players would enjoy some tangible benefit of having spent their gold. You can see that, right?

RCDv57
07-27-2015, 09:17 AM
The thing is, if HXE changes "Paid spin" to "Free spin" a lot of people will scream and yell and cry for a gold reimbursement for all their past Paid spins. Based on that, I think that the only action they could take is to remove the Single eyeball reward.

I personally was hoping for more than an 80% equipment ratio. It doesn't matter how cool or good the equip is, I am always sad to get them. Even Stardust is more exciting to open, and that's not chest exclusive.

Krond
07-27-2015, 09:23 AM
The thing is, if HXE changes "Paid spin" to "Free spin" a lot of people will scream and yell and cry for a gold reimbursement for all their past Paid spins. Based on that, I think that the only action they could take is to remove the Single eyeball reward.

I personally was hoping for more than an 80% equipment ratio. It doesn't matter how cool or good the equip is, I am always sad to get them. Even Stardust is more exciting to open, and that's not chest exclusive.

Yeah, but the uproar over paid spin rebursement is certainly something to consider. I suppose it's possible that winning paid spins were tracked and stored on some database, but I assume that is not the case.

If they don't reimbuse, there will be backlash, but if they decide that winning paid spins sucks, they have two options.

- Since some people paid gold on the paid spins they won, this will never change because it's "unfair",

- Identify that mistakes were made, some people will be salty, and move forward with a better system for the future.

Ultimately it's up to them, but not making something better simply because some people got burned and now EVERYONE has to get burned seems stupid.

Xenavire
07-27-2015, 09:26 AM
I have said it before, and I will say it again - I would rather remove paid rerolls and have a higher price per roll overall to compensate. I still get frustrated when I get a paid reroll on even an uncommon chest, let alone rare or legendary.

I would love a lot of little tweaks to the gold sinks to make me want to use them more (I.E, give a good feeling enough to negate the bad feeling) but I am not in control of those choices.

Krond
07-27-2015, 09:31 AM
I have said it before, and I will say it again - I would rather remove paid rerolls and have a higher price per roll overall to compensate. I still get frustrated when I get a paid reroll on even an uncommon chest, let alone rare or legendary.

I would love a lot of little tweaks to the gold sinks to make me want to use them more (I.E, give a good feeling enough to negate the bad feeling) but I am not in control of those choices.

That seems reasonable. I too would pay more per spin to ensure that I would never "win" a paid spin. Mathemagicians can point out whatever, but statistics and probability doesn't fix the "feel bad" of winning a paid spin.

While we aren't in control of these things, we are the community, and we have to voice our concerns.

AdamAoE2
07-27-2015, 10:09 AM
Chests are kind of in a weird spot right now for me.

The Good
- Opening Treasure chests is exciting, especially on the higher rarities.

- Chests really help stimulate the gold economy of the game, allowing people who don't want to buy plat to advance by ensuring gold is a valuable commodity.

- Spinning Chests can be rewarding - spinning into a free booster pack is a great feeling. Also exciting to win cool stuff.

The Bad
- I don't like how you can get lower tiered items out of higher rarity chests. I'd much rather have the chance to get better chests from booster packs be lower, and guarantee that tier of rarity from the chest.

- As others have said, a single eye result on spinning a chest is extremely demoralizing. I feel as though a single eye result should also come with some sort of booby prize to help soothe the sting of losing so much gold.

- Chests feel kind of... empty. Opening a treasure chest and only getting only a single item might be fine for a common chest, but treasure chests should be filled to the brim with goodies - A nominal amount of gold for theme, some consumables, crafting materials, stardust, and other goodies. Opening a treasure chest and finding a single hat seems... weird. How excited do you think Olive Oyl would have been if she opened that chest and there was only a single hat inside?

http://i.imgur.com/B1dXrE7.png

My hope is that treasure chests in the future will feature even more types of items (and not only finding a single type of item in a chest)

- The menu that lists the loot recieved from treasure chests (And the Frost Ring for that matter) is dull. Spruce it up a little, make a GUMP! Cory - you expressed a love of UO - think about that UO Treasure Chest GUMP whenever you opened a treasure chest. Make it look good! :)

Zophie
07-27-2015, 11:19 AM
- I don't like how you can get lower tiered items out of higher rarity chests. I'd much rather have the chance to get better chests from booster packs be lower, and guarantee that tier of rarity from the chest.

This is really my main pain point too. I feel that the rarity of the chest should at least set the minimum rarity of the contents inside. I already went up against RNG when I got my Rare chest, or the RNG faced to upgrade something to a Rare chest on WoF, I don't want to have yet another layer of RNG just to determine whether I actually get a Rare reward or not. If that means adjusting the rarity of chests dropping from packs then do what you have to do, but earning a Rare chest and then opening it to get something of lesser rarity is just plain disappointing.

Vorpal
07-27-2015, 11:49 AM
You absolutely, 100% guaranteed, cannot pull anything at Uncommon rarity from Primal chests. Anyone who thinks they did is mistaken. Even multiple Rare results is very, very unlikely.

But given the rarity spreads, you can pull rare equipment from common chests, and you can also pull rare equipment from primal chests.

IE, you can open a primal, and find the same thing you just found in the common just you just opened. Really takes the wind out of your sails :D

israel.kendall
07-27-2015, 12:13 PM
Opened all my uncommon and legendary chest without spinning them. I've decided only to spin common and rare chests, cost isn't worth spinning the others.

Xexist
07-27-2015, 12:43 PM
Opened all my uncommon and legendary chest without spinning them. I've decided only to spin common and rare chests, cost isn't worth spinning the others.

thats the whole problem in a nutshell.

Its not worth it

Yoss
07-27-2015, 12:48 PM
I understand that I can open them, but I like the feeling of never having passed on the spin. I know, it's a little goofy, but that's how I want to play it.

Being that I don't want to forego any possible spins, it feels terrible to be asked to pay to spin again.

I may not represent the majority, but those who I have spoken to all feel the same way; winning a paid spin does NOT feel like winning, it feels like getting screwed. Now HEX doesn't need to bend to my whims, but I would enjoy the chest experience as a whole a lot more if I knew that I only had to pay the fee once per chest.

I have a deal for you. Every time you get a paid spin result and it makes you sad, send me the PaidSpin chest and I'll send you a NoSpin chest of same kind.

Yoss
07-27-2015, 12:50 PM
Opened all my uncommon and legendary chest without spinning them. I've decided only to spin common and rare chests, cost isn't worth spinning the others.

Why not trade the PaidSpin chests for NoSpin chests and a small fee?

israel.kendall
07-27-2015, 01:08 PM
Why not trade the PaidSpin chests for NoSpin chests and a small fee?

I will look into the cost difference, but will have to be pretty good margin to make it worth the time. Good idea tho, thanks.

israel.kendall
07-28-2015, 06:00 AM
I just checked on the pricing for spun vs unspun uncommon and legendary chest and they are listed all at the same prices. There's no margin there.

superdax
07-28-2015, 06:15 AM
Any update on the Trading of the chests ???

strawwmann
07-28-2015, 06:44 AM
I just checked on the pricing for spun vs unspun uncommon and legendary chest and they are listed all at the same prices. There's no margin there.

Well, I guess the market has made it verdict quite clear on the value of spinning chests then!

frychikn
07-28-2015, 08:21 AM
Guys, having a higher rarity chest was never meant to be a guarantee of getting X item or X rarity of item. It's increased chance, rather than guarantee. Cory has been saying for years now that the legendary equipment and the rarest stuff in chests was meant to be super chasey. Getting uncommon or rare items in high level chests is always going to be a possibility.

definitely 2nd this. if you were always supposed to get rare+ items, then you might as well make it to where all players just have all equipment, because with the # of chest opened there would be so many opened that none of the equipment would have any value whatsoever.

i think the chest are fine.

Turboflex
07-28-2015, 08:27 AM
Maybe my maths is wrong but to get the intrinsic value I figure you take the difference in market value of rolled primal chest minus value of rolled legendary chest, then take 10-15% of the that difference (whatever chance of winning an upgrade, I have seen this as the estimate). Finally subtract 30,000 gold from that 10-15% figure.

(y-x)*0.10 (or whatever upgrade chance is) - 30,000 (or plat equivalent) + average value of non-upgrade spin reward*

Where x = rolled legendary and y = rolled primal.

Is there any positive value left there? I can't actually check now, I'm at work, so I don't know but I am curious to know. If there isn't anything left after that math then it's kind of proof the devs have screwed up the costs & returns of rolling legendaries, at least in the eyes of theirs thousands of players. The same formula can be applied to all four spins.

*Where you have a maybe 50% chance to complete fail, and 40% chance to win anything from paid spin, to 500 gold, to a relatively low value merc like slamvolt, to a sleeve, to relatively scarce PvE stuff, to a legendary AA). I doubt anyone has, or even can really come close to calculating this besides Hex devs with all the spreadsheet data.

israel.kendall
07-28-2015, 08:35 AM
definitely 2nd this. if you were always supposed to get rare+ items, then you might as well make it to where all players just have all equipment, because with the # of chest opened there would be so many opened that none of the equipment would have any value whatsoever.

i think the chest are fine.

It would work just need a much larger loot table, that's all.

Thand
07-28-2015, 08:37 AM
Guys, having a higher rarity chest was never meant to be a guarantee of getting X item or X rarity of item. It's increased chance, rather than guarantee. Cory has been saying for years now that the legendary equipment and the rarest stuff in chests was meant to be super chasey. Getting uncommon or rare items in high level chests is always going to be a possibility.
I know many people have said similar things in response to this, but I'm going to throw my 2 cents in anyway. I actually agree in keeping the legendary stuff as rare as it is now. However, if you want the legendary equipment to be chasey, then make the legendary chests chasey. Don't create a purposefully disappointing experience by making legendary chests easy to obtain, but then have them give you rewards often unbefitting of the "legendary" label. If this approach is almost universally irritating to your hardcore players who have hundreds of chests to spin/open (and therefore will get most of the items anyway), how much worse will it be for your more casual and uninformed players who are just starting out?

Vorpal
07-28-2015, 08:44 AM
I just checked on the pricing for spun vs unspun uncommon and legendary chest and they are listed all at the same prices. There's no margin there.

That's because spinning at that level is a net value detractor, IMO. It costs a lot of gold, and gold is very pricey. For two rare spins you can buy a pack. Do you earn a pack on average per rare spin? Absolutely not.

I have enough unrolled chests to consume literally millions of gold.

I wouldn't pay a single gold to make some of my chests with no spins left have spins again. If it cost me NOTHING then yeah, sure, I would rather have the OPTION to respin than not be able to respin at all.

gold would have to be so much more plentiful to consider being able to spend even MORE gold rolling chests of any benefit, that it isn't even funny. I could probably have spent another 2 million gold on the store AA's. I could spend..infinite..? gold buying stardust to EA my collection. I can spend millions of gold rolling the existing chests I have. I could spend a lot of gold buying more packs! All of that ranks higher than being able to buy more chances to spend 8k gold a pop on rare chests 'winning' a paid spin.

ryuukan
07-28-2015, 08:56 AM
The current chest loot scheme is not a new concept, its basically complete gacha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_gacha)

It was declared illegal in Japan, maybe thats why Hex Ent isn't doing a Japanese localization

the_artic_one
07-28-2015, 09:04 AM
How is it a complete gacha? You don't combine items for a larger reward. It's just a regular gacha (roll for random items) which is allowed in Japan.

x78089
07-28-2015, 09:07 AM
The current chest loot scheme is not a new concept, its basically complete gacha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_gacha)

It was declared illegal in Japan, maybe thats why Hex Ent isn't doing a Japanese localization

If the chest opening/spinning required platinum or cash I would agree. But it doesn't, so you are wrong.

ryuukan
07-28-2015, 09:23 AM
How is it a complete gacha? You don't combine items for a larger reward. It's just a regular gacha (roll for random items) which is allowed in Japan.


If the chest opening/spinning required platinum or cash I would agree. But it doesn't, so you are wrong.

I guess the concept that players can buy packs with real money which have the roll to produce the higher rarity chests which in turn are a commodity that can be sold for real money to other players to roll again for the highest rarity items made me think of it that way.

its different I suppose, but the roll into a roll still feels scummy as many many others have pointed out

the_artic_one
07-28-2015, 09:34 AM
On another note, I wonder if the value of gold is going to fall soon since chest rolls are the only use for it (are any others announced?) and it's currently considered not worth it to spin chests.

Xexist
07-28-2015, 09:37 AM
definitely 2nd this. if you were always supposed to get rare+ items, then you might as well make it to where all players just have all equipment, because with the # of chest opened there would be so many opened that none of the equipment would have any value whatsoever.

i think the chest are fine.

Make rare + legendary + primal chests more.... rare, and then guarantee the loot! Then loot remains.. rare.

Yoss
07-28-2015, 09:40 AM
I just checked on the pricing for spun vs unspun uncommon and legendary chest and they are listed all at the same prices. There's no margin there.

Interesting. So one can get unlimited spins by just buying PaidSpin chest, spin it, then sell it back at the same price you bought it (or more if you hit an upgrade).

Yoss
07-28-2015, 09:42 AM
On another note, I wonder if the value of gold is going to fall soon since chest rolls are the only use for it (are any others announced?) and it's currently considered not worth it to spin chests.

EA cards.

the_artic_one
07-28-2015, 09:48 AM
EA cards.

Derp, for some reason I thought that used plat, nevermind.

Still, I feel like the value should drop a little once people have the EAs they really want.

MatWith1T
07-28-2015, 09:49 AM
Behold my legendary chest loot and weep!
3730

Vorpal
07-28-2015, 09:53 AM
Behold my legendary chest loot and weep!
3730

Could have gotten the exact same loot by opening two common chests :D

Zophie
07-28-2015, 10:17 AM
[...] if you want the legendary equipment to be chasey, then make the legendary chests chasey. Don't create a purposefully disappointing experience by making legendary chests easy to obtain, but then have them give you rewards often unbefitting of the "legendary" label. If this approach is almost universally irritating to your hardcore players who have hundreds of chests to spin/open (and therefore will get most of the items anyway), how much worse will it be for your more casual and uninformed players who are just starting out?

^ So much this.


Make rare + legendary + primal chests more.... rare, and then guarantee the loot! Then loot remains.. rare.

Exactly.

Turtlewing
07-28-2015, 10:40 AM
That seems reasonable. I too would pay more per spin to ensure that I would never "win" a paid spin. Mathemagicians can point out whatever, but statistics and probability doesn't fix the "feel bad" of winning a paid spin.

While we aren't in control of these things, we are the community, and we have to voice our concerns.

It really isn't as reasonable as it sounds. The reason chest spins can't be too expensive is too high a price will cause "sticker shock" and people won't spin.

The payed spin, results are all a normal result with a payed spin added on. They're strictly superior to their direct competitor. The problem is you're comparing "you lots but here's a payed spin" to a win state and that's just wrong.



- As others have said, a single eye result on spinning a chest is extremely demoralizing. I feel as though a single eye result should also come with some sort of booby prize to help soothe the sting of losing so much gold.


The eye result is the booby prize. It's a 'fail spin' that as a consolation doesn't consume the chest's ability to be spun.

Mike411
07-28-2015, 10:40 AM
I don't think they should change the loot table since its already released, but I hope they take note and make some changes to chest loot tables with set 4.

Yes, please no changes to existing tables.

ryuukan
07-28-2015, 01:40 PM
Imagine a f2p player who loves hex decides to finally buy some packs. They get a few common chests and one rare (!) chest.
Now imagine the disappointment as they open the rare chest and get a common that they already opened from a common chest.

This loot system seems like a fantastic way to drive off potential paying players.
It's not brilliant or devious, it's just illogical and anathema to building a steady paying playerbase.

Looking forward to sponsorpay survey URLs being added as legendary drops for Set 4

Jeevus
07-29-2015, 02:42 AM
I just feel the rewards should be exactly the same as they did with stardust. Common chess reward with common stardust/eq/rarely common aa's and rarely uncommon stardust/eq/ very rarely uncommon aa's.

This should go up to rare. Legendary chests of course shouldnt have the primal stuff included, even if the spins (or the gold incame) are changed drastically.


this would actually ensure the rarity of the content according to the rarity of the chest, with a little upside if you get those higher tier stuff.

Vorpal
07-29-2015, 06:30 AM
Yeah. If you want the rare loot in rare chests to be more rare...reduce the rarity of rare chests and make them only drop rare loot. Win/win.

plaguedealer
07-29-2015, 06:33 AM
Yeah. If you want the rare loot in rare chests to be more rare...reduce the rarity of rare chests and make them only drop rare loot. Win/win.

I will jump on this bandwagon, I think it is the best solution. I want to add that having a primal chest should be like a oh &#/^ moment. Obviously it would have to start with set 4.

JohnDruitt
07-29-2015, 08:48 AM
I am not going to complain about the content of the chest but I'd like to request a small QOL improvement. Can we get "open multiple chests" option? I still have not opened a half of my stash and I have a long way to go. I'd also like an option to turn off the prompt about opening unrolled chest.

Xexist
07-29-2015, 09:51 AM
I am not going to complain about the content of the chest but I'd like to request a small QOL improvement. Can we get "open multiple chests" option? I still have not opened a half of my stash and I have a long way to go. I'd also like an option to turn off the prompt about opening unrolled chest.

I just do like 5 chests at a time, then go play games etc.

Once my backlog is opened it wont really be a problem. Now If I was Colin and had like enough chests to hire a team of children in a third world country to open chests 24/7 for a year, then yeah. Multiple chests opening might help :)