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View Full Version : Why you have to limit number of non-AA cards and equipment?



Altima
08-06-2015, 11:53 PM
Storm of the Century, Cloud family and their equipments.

It is only PvE card and we will use it to play against only AI. Why the cost of just having fun against AI is so high?

WWKnight
08-07-2015, 12:07 AM
Because it is set by the player base. That is what a free market economy does.

AstaSyneri
08-07-2015, 03:52 AM
I absolutely agree that it is a less than stellar idea to put useable equipment into those packs and have it limited to this one-time only chance, especially with the abysmal drop rates for the Stormcoat. Sleeves and popular AA cards work much better for this kind of event.

israel.kendall
08-07-2015, 04:07 AM
Be happy, it allowed people to suck in thousands of plat for playing arena!

Mahes
08-07-2015, 05:48 AM
If you were a player that wanted to jump into this game, this past week was beautiful for you. A player had multiple opportunities to acquire items that sold for 1-4k Plat each while not paying a dime into this game. Obviously there was luck involved but a new player could have just rerun the first tier in Arena and have done great at building up Plat to then continue in a Draft format. Given the value of items, I almost think they went a little too far in how easy it was to make a LOT of platinum if you got even a little lucky. I will be surprised if we see an event this new player friendly again.

Altima
08-07-2015, 06:27 AM
Giving out plat in arena is good. I do not oppose that but they can make an AA-cards or something else that does not relate to gameplay in those packs instead.

Lafoote
08-07-2015, 09:07 AM
We kinda beat this topic pretty hard on at least two other threads.

zadies
08-07-2015, 09:37 AM
Sorry but chase items are chase... the fact that there was a 1 week window instead of a 4 month window like a typical pvp set is supposed to have doesn't make a time limited event a bad thing. You can use the EXACT same argument you are using now for a reason why pvp sets should never rotate out.

Svenn
08-07-2015, 09:46 AM
Sorry but chase items are chase... the fact that there was a 1 week window instead of a 4 month window like a typical pvp set is supposed to have doesn't make a time limited event a bad thing. You can use the EXACT same argument you are using now for a reason why pvp sets should never rotate out.

I'm sorry that you can't tell the difference between 1 week and 4 months, but there is a pretty significant difference.

zadies
08-07-2015, 09:51 AM
No Sven in the end there is 0 difference when something becomes unavailable... it might change the value that a collector would place on the item but the fact is when it's gone it is gone and isn't coming back. The complaints here are that pve items aren't coming back the same exact thing can be said about pvp sets in thier entirety... and i'm sorry 4 AoD at 1.8k p and 1 stormcoat at 6k plat not seeing the difference.

The fact is that people just don't like the fact they couldn't earn it themselves for free and are unwilling to pay what others have set the price at so you complain because people feel that they deserve everything. This disrupts the tidy little world that everyone has been living in where things that are earned in pve won't ever be worth anything ever. Cory already had said that we would be surprised at the rarity and price certain pve items would go for and people laughed him off... I wouldn't be surprised to see .0001% drops in pve which will make them worth much more then anything from convocation.

Alamand
08-07-2015, 10:16 AM
Because it is set by the player base. That is what a free market economy does.

The prices were almost entirely set by the devs rather than the community because they're the ones that set the drop rate, so they're the ones responsible for the artificially high price for such mediocre cards.



No Sven in the end there is 0 difference when something becomes unavailable... it might change the value that a collector would place on the item but the fact is when it's gone it is gone and isn't coming back. The complaints here are that pve items aren't coming back the same exact thing can be said about pvp sets in thier entirety... and i'm sorry 4 AoD at 1.8k p and 1 stormcoat at 6k plat not seeing the difference.

The fact is that people just don't like the fact they couldn't earn it themselves for free and are unwilling to pay what others have set the price at so you complain because people feel that they deserve everything. This disrupts the tidy little world that everyone has been living in where things that are earned in pve won't ever be worth anything ever. Cory already had said that we would be surprised at the rarity and price certain pve items would go for and people laughed him off... I wouldn't be surprised to see .0001% drops in pve which will make them worth much more then anything from convocation.

There's a massive difference in when something becomes unavailable when one set of items is available for a week and each player can get a finite amount of them no matter what they do vs the 1-2 years a PvP set will be available for where a player can get a basicaally infinite amount of them if they have the money.

The problem is the devs seem to have some kind of fetish for creating PvE cards and then setting their drop rates so low that they might as well not even exist for 99% of the playerbase. The 2013/14 packs should have been the value added portion of the event but the devs just couldn't pass up the chance to screw over the PvE players once again. Sure, they probably did it with good intentions, but they need to learn it's not their place to force chase cards.

Biz
08-07-2015, 10:28 AM
it would be impossible to make very rare items if they weren't limited in quantity

i'm just glad they haven't done it to pvp outside of cosmetic stuff

Pezzle
08-07-2015, 10:40 AM
The prices were almost entirely set by the devs rather than the community because they're the ones that set the drop rate, so they're the ones responsible for the artificially high price for such mediocre cards.




There's a massive difference in when something becomes unavailable when one set of items is available for a week and each player can get a finite amount of them no matter what they do vs the 1-2 years a PvP set will be available for where a player can get a basicaally infinite amount of them if they have the money.

The problem is the devs seem to have some kind of fetish for creating PvE cards and then setting their drop rates so low that they might as well not even exist for 99% of the playerbase. The 2013/14 packs should have been the value added portion of the event but the devs just couldn't pass up the chance to screw over the PvE players once again. Sure, they probably did it with good intentions, but they need to learn it's not their place to force chase cards.

What?

It is PvE, if Cryptozoic decides to make some card only drop 5 times ever they are well within their rights to do so.
You will never have everything, by design. It is not a mistake. It has been expressly stated many many times. People need to adjust how they think about PvE.

Vorpal
08-07-2015, 11:02 AM
it would be impossible to make very rare items if they weren't limited in quantity

i'm just glad they haven't done it to pvp outside of cosmetic stuff

It is not necessary to time gate items to make them rare and or expensive. Look at VK/AOD.

The reason for longer time periods than a weekend for time gated material distributed on RNG is that it allows for the variance to correct itself.

How many people would be happy with a system where you flipped a coin, heads you got a complete playset of everything bound to your account, tails you got nothing and could never get it in the future?

Svenn
08-07-2015, 11:17 AM
No Sven in the end there is 0 difference when something becomes unavailable... it might change the value that a collector would place on the item but the fact is when it's gone it is gone and isn't coming back. The complaints here are that pve items aren't coming back the same exact thing can be said about pvp sets in thier entirety... and i'm sorry 4 AoD at 1.8k p and 1 stormcoat at 6k plat not seeing the difference.

The fact is that people just don't like the fact they couldn't earn it themselves for free and are unwilling to pay what others have set the price at so you complain because people feel that they deserve everything. This disrupts the tidy little world that everyone has been living in where things that are earned in pve won't ever be worth anything ever. Cory already had said that we would be surprised at the rarity and price certain pve items would go for and people laughed him off... I wouldn't be surprised to see .0001% drops in pve which will make them worth much more then anything from convocation.
When something is available for a week there's a rush to get it. A player might be unavailable for a week, or a good portion of it. An unlucky streak can completely screw a player. When something is available for 4 months or more these issues pretty much disappear and these are just a couple differences.

I would 100% be in favor of .0001% drop chances in PvE. I love it. As long as it isn't a short time limited event. Gives me something to work towards.

It has nothing to do with the value of the items, and everything to do with the timing.

Pezzle
08-07-2015, 11:28 AM
So if they double an events duration and quarter the drop rates, you are good with that?

Svenn
08-07-2015, 11:32 AM
So if they double an events duration and quarter the drop rates, you are good with that?

Anything shorter than a month or two is too short for putting a ton of RNG in for the above reasons. But yeah, if they made a several month long event and lowered the drop rates, sure.

RCDv57
08-07-2015, 11:40 AM
I am having trouble understanding the design philosophy behind making PvE cards difficult and/or expensive to acquire.
They can only be used in a limited amount of game modes compared to PvP cards, and a majority of players who would be interested in the PvE cards will most likely never be able to get their hands on them. (At least for a price they would consider to be reasonable.)

This becomes especially confusing when I've heard things like "we don't want players to have to grind dungeons"
But when looking at the pricing and drop rates right now, and with Cory saying that it is only going to get worse. Grinding is probably going to be a big deal.
I've always gotten the vibe that PvE cards would be fairly common drops while equipment would be pretty rare drops. That makes a lot of sense too, as players only need 1 equipment per playset of 4 cards. But the opposite seems to be in effect on all the loot tables so far.

Stuff like this is really confusing to me, and a tad bit concerning.
I just keep on hearing one thing, yet seeing something that resembles the complete opposite.

Alamand
08-07-2015, 11:44 AM
What?

It is PvE, if Cryptozoic decides to make some card only drop 5 times ever they are well within their rights to do so.
You will never have everything, by design. It is not a mistake. It has been expressly stated many many times. People need to adjust how they think about PvE.

So, you're of the opinion that PvE players should be treated as second class citizen and Hex should screw around with them in ways they would never do to PvP players simply because they can? I find that to be a questionable strategy considering PvE is going to be the feature that determines if Hex is going to succeed or fail.

I believe they need to make the rarity symbols on PvE cards actually mean something instead of just being a pretty color they arbitrarily decide to put on the card. Actual content shouldn't be sacrificed on the altar of rarity to appease the collectors and AH players, that's what AAs and sleeves are for.

If a PvE card is going to be expensive it should be because of a combination of it's power level as well as it's rarity and be something determined by the playerbase, not because the developers arbitrarily decide it's going to be expensive so they drastically reduce its availability.

Pezzle
08-07-2015, 11:44 AM
Rarity is only one factor. Given enough time, even the rarest items can become common enough. Missing an event might suck, but that is how it goes sometimes. It is impossible to please everyone and have events retain any exclusiveness. There really is no such thing as 'fair'. You will never have everything, be happy with what you have. If you really really want those most exclusive items there is always a price to pay, and it is not always time.

Svenn
08-07-2015, 11:46 AM
I am having trouble understanding the design philosophy behind making PvE cards difficult and/or expensive to acquire.
They can only be used in a limited amount of game modes compared to PvP cards, and a majority of players who would be interested in the PvE cards will most likely never be able to get their hands on them. (At least for a price they would consider to be reasonable.)

This becomes especially confusing when I've heard things like "we don't want players to have to grind dungeons"
But when looking at the pricing and drop rates right now, and with Cory saying that it is only going to get worse. Grinding is probably going to be a big deal.
I've always gotten the vibe that PvE cards would be fairly common drops while equipment would be pretty rare drops. That makes a lot of sense too, as players only need 1 equipment per playset of 4 cards. But the opposite seems to be in effect on all the loot tables so far.

Stuff like this is really confusing to me, and a tad bit concerning.
I just keep on hearing one thing, yet seeing something that resembles the complete opposite.

Of course there are going to be rare cards and stuff with really low drop rates. Look at any other MMO out there. You need the rare items to keep people playing. They need something to be striving for.

Pezzle
08-07-2015, 11:51 AM
So, you're of the opinion that PvE players should be treated as second class citizen and Hex should screw around with them in ways they would never do to PvP players simply because they can? I find that to be a questionable strategy considering PvE is going to be the feature that determines if Hex is going to succeed or fail.

I believe they need to make the rarity symbols on PvE cards actually mean something instead of just being a pretty color they arbitrarily decide to put on the card. Actual content shouldn't be sacrificed on the altar of rarity to appease the collectors and AH players, that's what AAs and sleeves are for.

If a PvE card is going to be expensive it should be because of a combination of it's power level as well as it's rarity and be something determined by the playerbase, not because the developers arbitrarily decide it's going to be expensive so they drastically reduce its availability.

What does this have to do with being second class? The design philosophy behind PvP and PvE are different because they HAVE to be. In PvE they are free to do whatever they want, from making you play your opponents deck to starting you with 2 cards etc. There is room for horribly cheating AI and secret events. It is a playground for absurd ideas and concepts that do not follow the rules of this card game. PvE drops can be as rare or common as they decide. They do not need to follow print run distribution rules. You cannot do that in PvP

RCDv57
08-07-2015, 11:54 AM
...Actual content shouldn't be sacrificed on the altar of rarity to appease the collectors and AH players, that's what AAs and sleeves are for...

Yeah! What he said.


Of course there are going to be rare cards and stuff with really low drop rates. Look at any other MMO out there. You need the rare items to keep people playing. They need something to be striving for.

This is true. I don't have a problem with that concept.
But right now all the PvE cards are far more expensive than the equipment from their respective loot tables.
The way Cory talks about equipment had me thinking it that it would be the other way around. The loot tables are not designed in a way that makes that possible. I believe that this is caused by a lack of "garbage" PvE card drops, like Dusk Stalker.

zadies
08-07-2015, 02:38 PM
I'm sorry but someone who plays as f2p and isn't collecting actually made out like a bandit from this event and guess what the f2p player is who the PvE is designed for it is not designed for the collector, thus the rarity of items is actually driving the play-style and economy that PvE was advertised as. It has been clearly stated that it was not the intention that everyone get everything when it comes to PvE and this is the first example of it. I hope for more stupidly crazy events with limited drops.

regomar
08-07-2015, 02:49 PM
OH boy, yet ANOTHER thread full of the exact same few people whining over a decision that's already been made. Get over it. This game was described as an MMO from day 1 of the Kickstarter. Limited events and items are an MMO staple. If you didn't expect this type of event, you haven't been paying attention and you have nobody to blame but yourself.

I for one loved the event even though I didn't get anything. It was actually exciting to play arena again and I enjoyed striving for the rewards immensely.

Svenn
08-07-2015, 05:14 PM
OH boy, yet ANOTHER thread full of the exact same few people whining over a decision that's already been made. Get over it. This game was described as an MMO from day 1 of the Kickstarter. Limited events and items are an MMO staple. If you didn't expect this type of event, you haven't been paying attention and you have nobody to blame but yourself.

I for one loved the event even though I didn't get anything. It was actually exciting to play arena again and I enjoyed striving for the rewards immensely.
Oh boy, yet ANOTHER person trying to tell everyone what they should enjoy and why their opinion is wrong.

If you want to bring up other MMOs, most special events let every player get all the special items within a couple hours at most. They don't require grinding for a week straight and still missing out on stuff. That's actually exactly why I expected this event to be more forgiving.

Alamand
08-07-2015, 06:58 PM
What does this have to do with being second class? The design philosophy behind PvP and PvE are different because they HAVE to be. In PvE they are free to do whatever they want, from making you play your opponents deck to starting you with 2 cards etc. There is room for horribly cheating AI and secret events. It is a playground for absurd ideas and concepts that do not follow the rules of this card game. PvE drops can be as rare or common as they decide. They do not need to follow print run distribution rules. You cannot do that in PvP

It would be second class treatment because PvE players have to put up with things PvP players would never stand for, they don't have to worry about the developers deciding that X rare from set 4 will have 1/10th the drop rate of other rares while Y Legendary will have 1/20th the drop rate of other legendaries and Z PvP rare can only be acquired from legendary and primal chests. The PvP players would never stand for it, so why should PvE players be expected to.

A PvE item doesn't need to be extra rare to have value, just look at Xocoy and tinkerer's robes before they were nerfed, they went for far more than other items with similar drop rates. The only reason they were cheap overall is because they belonged to the first and only PvE "dungeon" so everyone was eager to grind the hell out of it.

And I know everyone loves the "everyone can't have everything" strawman, but no one is asking for that. There's a difference between rare and unobtainable, in my mind there's no justification for the storm deck to be 100$+ or the slaughtergear set to be 250$+. At those prices I'd be amazed if even 1% of the playerbase could enjoy them, and if almost no one is enjoying them they might as well not be in the game.

Xenavire
08-07-2015, 07:22 PM
Oh boy, yet ANOTHER person trying to tell everyone what they should enjoy and why their opinion is wrong.

If you want to bring up other MMOs, most special events let every player get all the special items within a couple hours at most. They don't require grinding for a week straight and still missing out on stuff. That's actually exactly why I expected this event to be more forgiving.

I just want to point out one of my least favourite events from another MMO, that made the same kinds of mistakes - Brewfest in WoW (it was a few years back, I think the year that they did a new expansion mere days before Brewfest started so the level cap had just been raised... And so had the boss level for the event.)

In short, the event was abysmal - there were bugs, incredible lag (the gates of Orgrimmar were packed constantly and the event required you to do a timed run through that horrible latency filled mob), and to even participate in half the major draw in the event, you had to reach the level cap (which meant constant grinding instead of actually taking part in the event.) On top of all of those issues, they had just added new items for purchase, which made it more or less impossible to get all the event items that year even if you maximised your farming for every single day of the week long event.

It took mere hours for me to throw in the towel, because it felt like a punishment, not a celebration.