PDA

View Full Version : Rare Resources / Reprints



CrystalShard
08-08-2015, 06:31 AM
Hi HEXers,

loving the game so far, even though I'm "only" doing PvE in the so far quite limited Arena mode. Still more fun than any other card game I've seen ;-)

Like so many others here, my first and most long-term experience with trading cards was with another card game that uses a somewhat similar resource system to HEX. I like how HEX handles things differently here, but I also have a concern for the future: in this other game, there were a lot of rare or legendary resource cards, mostly for mana-fixing, but also for a variety of unique effects. Now I get why this can be exciting to have from a design position, but there is also a pitfall: having "better" (and thus more expensive) resource cards gives definite advantages while deckbuilding, particularly in multi-coloured decks. It helps decide the game before even the first card is played.

A more expensive (in real money/platinum/gold) "resource base" is - in my eyes - a bar to entry for new players, and it detracts from the "real" cards, i.e., actions, troops, and so on.

So, I would love to petition HexEnt/Cryptozoic to avoid making this kind of "exclusive advantage resource cards". Further, I'd love to see regular "reprints" of mana-fixing cards like the "Shards of ..."-cycle from Shattered Destiny, especially now that multi-coloured decks are officially a thing in HEX ;-)


TLDR: Avoid making resource card "chase rares", it places an unnecessary bar to entry for new players and detracts from the "real" cards. Resources are a means to an end (i.e., playing cards), not an end in themselves.


Right, let me know what you think and happy HEXing!

zadies
08-08-2015, 07:15 AM
Really seems they are going a cycle with resources common,uncommon, rare. It is quite likely the next set of resources will also be rare simply because there are another 4 allegiances that need them and they have set the bar on allegiance resources being rare. I am hoping set 5 ends up with something common like shards of fate again though. If they choose to make set 4 resources human/shin/dwarf/orc and not have them rare I actually feel that would be worse then following this suggestion.

Malakili
08-08-2015, 08:39 AM
Given that a stronger resource base makes for a lot of really interesting decks, I just can't agree. I understand your concerns about cost and about barriers to entry, but at the same time opening up deck building options for older formats especially is really valuable. They are better off printing some really high quality shards now and then having them rotate out of standard sooner rather than later. On the question of rarity: rare or not - I actually don't car. I'm interested in power level here. My best GUESS is that the types of resources that would be most interesting for deck building would only be printed at rare, but I'm just as happy from a player perspective if they come in at uncommon)

Alamand
08-08-2015, 09:17 AM
Personally I'm not a fan of rare resources either since they set a ridiculously high bar for entry into constructed, but I can stand them as long as we get cards to mess with them like blood moon. Sadly since they magically vanish after you play them I doubt we'll get anything that satisfying though.

Naldek
08-08-2015, 09:18 AM
Last time the subject was discussed I was under the impression that many people on the forum wanted better shards and they argued that you can't make this better shards at a low rarity or it will be bad for limited. However, I'm also not a fan of good rare resources because that would be bad for the cost of entry.

I think a way to make both groups happy would be to make future resources craftable cards. That way, you could make them cheap cards while still protecting limited.

Malakili
08-08-2015, 09:19 AM
I really don't think crafting should play any role in normal constructed PvP.

Oli
08-08-2015, 09:29 AM
If they are worried that good shard-fixers should not take an uncommon slot for drafting, they could sell or award set specific "shard-boosters" separately.

WWKnight
08-08-2015, 09:34 AM
Or, they could put good shards in the rare slot.

Malakili
08-08-2015, 09:52 AM
Yeah, that's the thing. We know what that looks like and it really isn't that bad.

Also, I think it's worth addressing the idea that resources aren't the "real" cards and that they therefore shouldn't be expensive. I think this is just plain false. Resources can absolutely be as interesting a part of the game as any other card type. I mean hell, "Lands" (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=10077&d=258051&f=LE) is a deck in Magic and it's pretty interesting.


Also, when it comes to mana fixers, there are really not that many cycles that are outlandishly expensive. The original dual lands are and part of that is because they are on the reserved list. If you look at the lands not on the reserved list, the fetchlands are the core of most decks and they came down a LOT in price when reprinted in Khans of Tarkir. The Zendikar fetches have a fairly good chance of being reprinted in Return to Zendikar, so I wouldn't be surprised to see their price go down substantially as well.

I understand that constructed is expensive to get into, but that's going to be the case no matter what, and at least with good lands you get to reuse those cards across MANY decks, whereas if you want to buy, say, a playset of Tarmogoyf's there are plenty of decks that just don't play the card.

Stok3d
08-08-2015, 10:13 AM
I support Hex on their rarity decisons. However, I do not support reprinting as to cripple pricing and use as a means to price fix

Xenavire
08-08-2015, 10:14 AM
Unique effects - rare. Proper fixing - Uncommon. Basic fixing - common.

This is the current setup and they shouldn't change it. As long as there is never a time where the unique effects become vital to play, we should all be able to build our decks efficiently and not pay exorbitant amounts.

CrystalShard
08-08-2015, 11:39 AM
Thanks for the feedback, guys. You raise quite a few interesting points.

I guess I just always found it kind of annoying that I keep hearing the sentence, "Oh, you want to get into ***name format X***, ye well, the mana base is really the most expensive part if you want to go there". I work in a game store and if I had a Black Lotus for every time I heard that sentence, I could buy several small countries by now.

... so this is part of the reason I see an expensive resource base as a pitfall or hurdle to entry.

Not that I don't like basking in the glow of my land folder, but I continue to find it odd that something which is so basic to the game comes with such a hefty price tag if you want to "be competitive".

Malakili
08-08-2015, 11:55 AM
Thanks for the feedback, guys. You raise quite a few interesting points.

I guess I just always found it kind of annoying that I keep hearing the sentence, "Oh, you want to get into ***name format X***, ye well, the mana base is really the most expensive part if you want to go there". I work in a game store and if I had a Black Lotus for every time I heard that sentence, I could buy several small countries by now.

... so this is part of the reason I see an expensive resource base as a pitfall or hurdle to entry.

Not that I don't like basking in the glow of my land folder, but I continue to find it odd that something which is so basic to the game comes with such a hefty price tag if you want to "be competitive".

Is it really worse in principle than needing to shell out 75 bucks per lilliana of the veil or snapcaster mage? Cards that lots of people want to play are expensive. Lots of people want to play good lands.

Xenavire
08-08-2015, 12:06 PM
Is it really worse in principle than needing to shell out 75 bucks per lilliana of the veil or snapcaster mage? Cards that lots of people want to play are expensive. Lots of people want to play good lands.

It really is - a deck with all the good shards and the same power cards is going to be more consistent than the same deck minus the shards. Then you have to consider that buying a expensive rare card feels good (a card I can play with!) where a shard is just... I can play other cards that cost the same or less than this... Yay?


Besides, the uncommon shards have worked out very well so far. I can't see why there would be any reason to start putting that kind of power in the rare slot.

Malakili
08-08-2015, 12:17 PM
Well I guess I'm the weirdo because when I was first into magic I liked to play blue white and saved and saved my money to buy a playset of tundras for what was then 20 bucks a pop. Man I was so happy as a 10 year old.

zadies
08-08-2015, 12:35 PM
The issue is that in most cases good lands can be used in multiple decks while a lot of the chase cards only work in a specific deck that is built for them which means more people want them then a given legendary. Lands provide constancy for multiple decks and play-styles thus end up being sought after by a larger audience. If you had to build a deck around a specific land comparing it in price to other chase cards would be worthwhile.

You do realize that this entire post Xen was caused by the alligence resources being rare right?

Xenavire
08-08-2015, 12:45 PM
The issue is that in most cases good lands can be used in multiple decks while a lot of the chase cards only work in a specific deck that is built for them which means more people want them then a given legendary. Lands provide constancy for multiple decks and play-styles thus end up being sought after by a larger audience. If you had to build a deck around a specific land comparing it in price to other chase cards would be worthwhile.

You do realize that this entire post Xen was caused by the alligence resources being rare right?

And while I don't really agree with colour fixers being rare, these are very specific, unique effects, that will help only a handful of decks as the game grows. And thats fine, as long as those shards don't become required to play.

Again, unique effects can be rare. Proper, plain fixing should be uncommon. That system was working just fine in set 2 and should be the norm going forward.

Malakili
08-08-2015, 12:52 PM
The set 2 fixers are not the only way to do threshold fixing.

Xenavire
08-08-2015, 01:04 PM
The set 2 fixers are not the only way to do threshold fixing.

No, of course not, but I believe that they should keep the power of the 'proper' fixing around that level, and keep them uncommon. Unique effects (like allegiance) can be rare because the number of decks that need them are far lower.

Thats how I feel it would work best for the game, including in limited.

Voormas
08-08-2015, 03:04 PM
Reprints were always on the table (why wouldn't they be?) so I don't see it being a problem if they have powerful resource cards - though the collector in me would appreciate if they commission new art so I have a reason to get some more copies ;D

Malakili
08-08-2015, 05:07 PM
believe that they should keep the power of the 'proper' fixing around that level

This is where we, at base, disagree. I don't think 0/1 choose a threshold out of 2 is really close to the ceiling of the power level fixing should have in this game.

Xenavire
08-08-2015, 05:29 PM
This is where we, at base, disagree. I don't think 0/1 choose a threshold out of 2 is really close to the ceiling of the power level fixing should have in this game.

What I meant is that they have a basic bonus and basic drawback - like gain 1/1 and a choice of 2 shards, but no charge (or even lose a charge, and you can't play it without having a charge first.) Or get everything, but take damage. All of those would be pretty balanced at uncommon. There would be a range of power within certain limits.

Malakili
08-08-2015, 06:33 PM
Drawbacks are fine, but that doesn't mean they wont be powerful enough to likely appear at rare. Shocklands, scrylands, Pain Lands, these all have draw backs and are printed at rare. If they REALLY want to print them at uncommon, I'll be fine with it. But it seems unlikely. But we've had this discussion before and I'm basically just repeating myself for the 10th time, so whatever.

zadies
08-08-2015, 06:42 PM
The cards of the level Xen is currently describing are fine at uncommon, but I would like to see another series of cards like the current ones that have present more options. I couldn't see a card like web printed at uncommon even if it didn't grant a charge.

Xenavire
08-08-2015, 07:23 PM
The cards of the level Xen is currently describing are fine at uncommon, but I would like to see another series of cards like the current ones that have present more options. I couldn't see a card like web printed at uncommon even if it didn't grant a charge.

Thats the unique effect thing I was talking about. I would love to see more unique shards like that, and I wouldn't expect to see many under rare (if any at all), and I think thats just fine.

magic_gazz
08-08-2015, 09:54 PM
Right now resource bases are a bit bad.

If I play a 2 colour deck and want to cast turn 2 Inquisition and turn 3 Counter I am going to be unable unless I play a ROID or AID on turn 1. I don't think this is a great place to be as deck building is restricted by this.

Obviously we don't want it to go too far the other way where everyone can play all the shards at no real cost to deckbuilding, but I think there is room for improvement.

As someone else has already said rare resources/lands are not cheap because of their ability to go in multiple decks. Having said that I believe there was a set of rare lands in mtg "fast lands" and they were not that expensive because of the drawback.

To the point of resources "not being real cards", good luck playing a deck with none.

zadies
08-08-2015, 10:00 PM
Actually gazz I completely disagree with you on the fact that is a bad place for deck building to be. I think it actually leads to needing to make smart decisions as to the order resources are played and in deck building itself. You also missed hex geode which at 0 cost could give you the sapphire threshold you would need while still being able to make other plays turns one.

bootlace
08-08-2015, 10:50 PM
I quite like what HxE is doing with its Shards thus far. When rare shards came up this set I thought maybe the power-creep would rear its ugly head but they've handled it really well, putting specific restrictions on your deck to reap the benefits.

The drawbacks in a game like MTG are almost always damage, and I don't believe that is enough of a drawback especially when a lot of decks like combo don't even care all that much about such drawbacks. When you make the rare Shards have specific requirements as it is now, it's just an avenue to balance that type of deck against others and it's easy to keep such rare Shards in check power wise.

Biz
08-08-2015, 11:51 PM
i always thought it was kind of lame that crackling vortex was a rare

even if it ends up not being very essential, people will only discover that after the damage is done


Right now resource bases are a bit bad.

If I play a 2 colour deck and want to cast turn 2 Inquisition and turn 3 Counter I am going to be unable unless I play a ROID or AID on turn 1. I don't think this is a great place to be as deck building is restricted by this.

isn't the entire purpose of the resource system to make sure that you have to sacrifice consistency and/or speed if you want to go deep into multiple colors?

magic_gazz
08-09-2015, 12:53 AM
Actually gazz I completely disagree with you on the fact that is a bad place for deck building to be. I think it actually leads to needing to make smart decisions as to the order resources are played and in deck building itself. You also missed hex geode which at 0 cost could give you the sapphire threshold you would need while still being able to make other plays turns one.

Super smart deck building like putting Walking Calamity in a deck with Titanias Majesty?

I don't feel like wanting to play two colours reliably is asking too much.

PureVapes
08-09-2015, 04:35 AM
Though I have a few hundred of the uncommon shards, I wouldn't mind if they saw reprints somewhat often. One of the main advantages Hex has over MtG is that their story is entirely on one 'plane', so they can reprint nearly at will.

@Better fixing - it's not just about the resources, it's about the compounding availability of fixing reaching a critical mass where threshold would become close to irrelevant. When you build a deck, if it's easy to play turn 2 Rot Cast and turn 3 Countermagic, you are effectively nullifying the double threshold of those cards. If double threshold becomes too easy to attain, the overall design of the threshold system has failed and it closes off a lot of design space in the future because of all of the potential interactions.

Fixing may become easier over time, but the diversity you seek in being able to play whatever you want would actually have a negative effect on the number of unique decks in the long term, though the few decks that survive would certainly have a higher power level (i.e., Legacy format).

Malakili
08-09-2015, 05:31 AM
isn't the entire purpose of the resource system to make sure that you have to sacrifice consistency and/or speed if you want to go deep into multiple colors?

Magic has basically also made it so that you can sacrifice life and keep most of your consistency and speed. I think we should ignore Legacy because I think we all understand that an equivalent to Magic's original dual lands are off the table. Modern is still a great format with a pretty big diversity in decks and they rely enormously on mana bases that cost a lot of life. Burn is a very popular deck too, because it punishes deck that are hitting themselves for 3 or 5 life early in the game. Cards like Blood Moon, Ghost Quarter and Tectonic Edge all punish mana bases that are greedy.

In fact, Magic has done a lot of things to make life more of a resource to be spent in itself that Hex really has not explored yet. Cards like Thoughtseize and Dismember all allow you to trade life to get an effect for cheap. Dismember is an example of Phyerxian Mana (http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Phyrexian_mana) that is an incredibly powerful mechanic.


Also, I really have to contest Xenavire's claim about current rare resources and unique effects. The tribal lands are really just fixing with a drawback, there is nothing really unique about them. "Have an elf" is a drawback the way "gain 0/1" is a drawback, they are just different drawbacks, and the deeper the card pool gets the easier it is going to be to get around it. When I think of unique effects on lands, I'm thinking of things like Cavern of Souls, Boseiju, Who Shelter's All, the man lands (raging ravine et al.), Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, etc. (again, ignoring legacy) But a lot of those effects require something to be a permanent, so if we see them we are likely to see them printed on artifacts, or maybe on resources that generate an artifact onto the battlefield when played.


Now yes, the difference is in threshold vs. needing to spend colored mana to actually cast spells, so that is already in play for shaping the power level necessary to achieve more consistency. I'm not saying copy and paste magic's rare color fixing, but I AM saying that the mana bases in a format like modern are a much bigger boon for the format than they are detriment. But then, I am also someone who doesn't really like creature/troops to begin with and like agile decks with lots of low cost answers and interaction. (I'm a long time Grixis player in modern, but I also can enjoy decks that attack from somewhat odd angles like BW Tokens).

Xenavire
08-09-2015, 06:36 AM
Malakili - if you want to call 'unique' things 'drawbacks', thats fine, but in my mind, tribal shards have a very different power level to most drawback fixing we could think of. Especially when 2 of them do have unique effects added (spiderlings and health.)

I mean, I can run any number of variations on saph/blood, but that silk shard is only useful in a small number of them. On the other hand, the uncommon shard can be used in pretty much every version. That is a huge difference.

Malakili
08-09-2015, 06:52 AM
It's a huge difference today, but how long until they print a vennen or two that just makes sense to go in most blood/sapphire control decks? The drawback is the allegiance requirement, not the effect.

Xenavire
08-09-2015, 07:47 AM
It's a huge difference today, but how long until they print a vennen or two that just makes sense to go in most blood/sapphire control decks? The drawback is the allegiance requirement, not the effect.

We already have strong vennen now. Xentoth's inquisitor, phenteo, exarch. Any of those could be used independently of other vennen. But will people bother making decks with certain cards that may not be optimal for the deck just to have a resource that fails to work properly every 5 or so games?

They are tribal, and currently the only tribe that can work without critical mass is elves (for ramp/titania.) I am betting that a few sets from now, that deck will have better options, or will not be worth playing in the meta.

Malakili
08-09-2015, 07:57 AM
Do you have to try hard to miss points people make on this forum or is it an inborn talent? Seriously, talking with you is like talking with someone from another universe.

The point is that we are dealing with drawbacks (0/1 vs. tribal requirement for threshold). One is at uncommon, one is at rare. The point is that there is no reason that other resources with drawbacks couldn't be printed at rare (like, for example, a rough equivalent of shock or pain lands). Maybe they would print these at uncommon, I dunno. But you've invented some fundamental difference between these resources that doesn't exist outside of the particular environment/meta game they exist in.

They have established, as far as I am concerned, with this set of resources that they are willing to print 1/1 with multiple threshold choices and a charge at the cost of a drawback.

Xenavire
08-09-2015, 08:02 AM
I just view the added effect differently. I don't think there is any further discussion needed on how I view it - I have made my position clear. I'd say it is time for people to talk about other aspects of the topic.

bootlace
08-09-2015, 08:53 AM
The point is that we are dealing with drawbacks (0/1 vs. tribal requirement for threshold). One is at uncommon, one is at rare. The point is that there is no reason that other resources with drawbacks couldn't be printed at rare (like, for example, a rough equivalent of shock or pain lands). Maybe they would print these at uncommon, I dunno. But you've invented some fundamental difference between these resources that doesn't exist outside of the particular environment/meta game they exist in.

They have established, as far as I am concerned, with this set of resources that they are willing to print 1/1 with multiple threshold choices and a charge at the cost of a drawback.

There is a huge difference between a pain land and a requirement like 'you need an elf'. Pain lands can easily get out of control power wise (in cases where the damage is inconsequential for example in a combo deck) while 'you need an elf' is always limited in power by the availability of elfs in the format.

As you say perhaps one day there will be so many elves that this will hardly be a drawback at all but if that happens it's likely to happen in Extended formats (where it's ok/good for it to happen as you say) but unlikely to happen in Standard formats where the devs will be easily able to control/monitor the amount/quantity of elves that are printed.

These rare Shards are similar to Champions - they've been created with the standard environment in mind and some Shards/Champions are stronger compared to others or past/future ones because they either help some decks catch-up to other decks consistency/power wise or the opposite. Eg: Zin 'xith Silk has some powerful ability attached onto a Shard and they're able to do that because they know the Vennen/Spiderling archetype in constructed can use all the help it can get to try to compete with the stronger archetypes.