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View Full Version : Swiftstrike "Does not count" for troop battles?!!



Teldil
08-11-2015, 03:05 PM
So my Grim Harvester is sitting proudly on the board, waiting to kick ass. My opponent plays a Carnasaurus. He chooses to battle my Grim Harvester. I'm giggling to myself wondering if he forgot about Swiftstrike.
To my utter shock, my Grim Harvester then dies.
I ask my opponent what the hell just happened, and he says: "Yes, Swiftstrike doesn't count in troop battles, only Lethal does."

WHAAAAT????
This has to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Please tell me this is a bug.
Why would "troop battles" be any different than normal combat and completely ignore a creature's ability for no good reason?
Why is Lethal not ignored in this way?
Who made this stuff up and more importantly, WHY?

zadies
08-11-2015, 03:09 PM
Swiftstrike is a phase of combat.... battle is not combat and isn't broken into phases. If it were exactly like combat you would never be able to battle troops in flight ect. It is not a bug.

BKCshah
08-11-2015, 03:09 PM
swiftstrike is a combat phase ability. it does not apply to the battle keyword.

Lethal applies to damage dealt.

why? because that's how the rules say it shall be.

Malicus
08-11-2015, 03:10 PM
swiftstrike modifies combat not the damage so it has no effect outside of combat. there are essentially 2 damage phases in combat the swiftstrike phase and the normal phase, if there are no swiftstrike toops the first phase is basically ignored but when they exist they do their damage in this phase.

lethal means the troop will kill with a single point of damage so works regardless of how and when the troop is dealing that damage.

PureVapes
08-11-2015, 03:13 PM
Well, consider combat to be a jungle where two troops are deployed. They have to find their opponent, attack and defend, but in that situation, whoever attacks first has a huge advantage.

However, the 'battle' effect is not that whole combat situation, but rather a cage match where they slug it out and there is no first strike advantage. In either situation, if your attack has lethal poison on it, you will kill them with one hit though!

Just trying to explain it a different way for newcomers.

BKCshah
08-11-2015, 03:16 PM
Well, consider combat to be a jungle where two troops are deployed. They have to find their opponent, attack and defend, but in that situation, whoever attacks first has a huge advantage.

However, the 'battle' effect is not that whole combat situation, but rather a cage match where they slug it out and there is no first strike advantage. In either situation, if your attack has lethal poison on it, you will kill them with one hit though!

Just trying to explain it a different way for newcomers.

But obviously if my guy has swiftstrike, he hits the other guy before he has a chance to react in a cage battle because my bro is like ninja-quick. Then he dies, and Swiftstrike reigns supreme. Why would a 'cage' negate my abilities?

Gwaer
08-11-2015, 03:23 PM
In his example he explained that swift strike was the ability to attack first because of cover stealth and hiding. In a cage match there is no cover stealth or hiding. You know the attack is coming and swing simultaneously. It may not be a perfect analogy, but it's pretty good. Yes it is a non obvious to new players interaction. They need to have a battle info box when you zoom into a card where it explains the battle means both troops deal damage to each other simultaneously.

Whye
08-11-2015, 03:35 PM
why? because that's how the rules say it shall be.

Yet another situation where a rulebook would be great.

Thrawn
08-11-2015, 04:19 PM
why? because that's how the rules say it shall be.

We don't have rules as far as I know. It's because that's how the client currently handles it.

MugenMusou
08-11-2015, 04:39 PM
Yup. I did not know this until couple days ago as well... and yes. I lost the match. Given it's digital nature, I wonder if it is possible to have some popup or side menu to show some sort of tips/guide in cases like this.

BKCshah
08-11-2015, 04:39 PM
At one point there was a really basic PDF document with a few of the interactions which could have been considered a very 'lite' rulebook - but good luck finding it.

ManofPeace
08-11-2015, 04:57 PM
Set 1 FAQ (http://f31812b0b389f16c3943-bb9edd4f1582b9b60c1682bd9d280aa0.r48.cf2.rackcdn.c om/HEX_FAQ_1-3.pdf)
Set 2 FAQ (http://f31812b0b389f16c3943-bb9edd4f1582b9b60c1682bd9d280aa0.r48.cf2.rackcdn.c om/HEX%20Shattered%20Destiny%20FAQ%201-1.pdf)
Set 3 FAQ - MIA (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=45285)

Kalmaive
08-11-2015, 05:16 PM
Yeah I've been stung by this before. Although the FAQ seems ambiguous on troop battles:

"Swiftstrike is a keyword power that troops can have. It means:

This troop deals combat damage before troops without swiftstrike."

Surely troop battles count as "combat".

Aradon
08-11-2015, 05:19 PM
No, the combat phase is combat. Nothing else is. If a troop battles a champion somehow, it doesn't trigger 'when this troop deals combat damage to a champion' abilities either.

ziggarius
08-11-2015, 05:32 PM
Set 1 FAQ (http://f31812b0b389f16c3943-bb9edd4f1582b9b60c1682bd9d280aa0.r48.cf2.rackcdn.c om/HEX_FAQ_1-3.pdf)
Set 2 FAQ (http://f31812b0b389f16c3943-bb9edd4f1582b9b60c1682bd9d280aa0.r48.cf2.rackcdn.c om/HEX%20Shattered%20Destiny%20FAQ%201-1.pdf)
Set 3 FAQ - MIA (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=45285)

From the set 1 FAQ

2. Concepts
• Some cards may cause two troops to battle one another. When two troops battle, they each
deal damage equal to their attack to the other troop.
o Both troops must be present to battle. If one of the troops is no longer in play, no longer
a troop, or no longer a legal target for a targeted effect that would cause it to battle, no
battle takes place.
o Damage dealt in a battle is not combat damage.

Nero_Jinous
08-11-2015, 06:21 PM
The rulebook is on the same page you download the hex client from. There is even big bold letters that says "New Players"


http://f31812b0b389f16c3943-bb9edd4f1582b9b60c1682bd9d280aa0.r48.cf2.rackcdn.c om/HEX_QuickStartGuide.pdf

Harsgalt
08-11-2015, 07:49 PM
This the same way how the other game handles the similar mechanism in the same situation. i.e: This is the same way how MTG handles first-strike in the "Fight" situation.

However, there's nothing to stop HEX changing the behaviour and having "Battle" start a combat phase (swiftstrike + regular) between two or more individual creatures.

Honestly, I always thought swiftstrike/first-strike not taking into account battles/fights unintuitive.

velk
08-11-2015, 08:32 PM
No, the combat phase is combat. Nothing else is. If a troop battles a champion somehow, it doesn't trigger 'when this troop deals combat damage to a champion' abilities either.

A similar trap to watch for is things that modify non-combat damage will also modify battle effects - for example trying to battle a war machinist against ballistics specialist, or against someone who has Samson in play will result in the battled troop taking 2 damage, not 1.

wolzarg
08-11-2015, 08:46 PM
This is definitely how it should be but it could be much more clear how battle works.

kindmime
08-11-2015, 08:53 PM
This is probably the least ambiguous description from wording of text. You can spend your entire day trying to figure how it should work in the end just remember how it works and play the game. Why does wrath copied from tits get double A/D but copied from periwinkle it doesn't. I don't know, but I know how it works and can prepare for it. This for many things will apply to tcgs can't really whine how the client "should" treat things just accept how they are.

wolzarg
08-11-2015, 10:23 PM
Because wrath has x/x in any zone and the stack isn't a zone. A copy keeps all the stats of a original so a copy of wrath in deck keeps the stats which are x/x and then because of its ability gets +x/+x.

Sure deeply confusing and very weird but it adds up.

This is why it is so weird they made tits make a copy instead of just playing the card "inspired" with the gem this would have saved them so much on bugs with weird gem insertions and confusing interactions like wrath.

sukebe
08-11-2015, 11:58 PM
Because wrath has x/x in any zone and the stack isn't a zone. A copy keeps all the stats of a original so a copy of wrath in deck keeps the stats which are x/x and then because of its ability gets +x/+x.

Sure deeply confusing and very weird but it adds up.

This is why it is so weird they made tits make a copy instead of just playing the card "inspired" with the gem this would have saved them so much on bugs with weird gem insertions and confusing interactions like wrath.

actually, the stack/chain is a zone...just not a zone belonging to any specific player

Terras
08-12-2015, 01:05 AM
The short answer to the original question is: "Battle" is a keyword that causes two creatures to deal combat damage equal to their attack to each other. Regardless of which is faster or anything or anything else, when it resolves, the two creatures each receive damage from the other.

Aradon
08-12-2015, 01:09 AM
The short answer to the original question is: "Battle" is a keyword that causes two creatures to deal combat damage equal to their attack to each other. Regardless of which is faster or anything or anything else, when it resolves, the two creatures each receive damage from the other.

Specifically not combat damage. Regular damage. Combat damage occurs only during the combat phase, and only from the portion of that phase that causes creatures to deal their combat damage as a turn-based effect.

Ertzi
08-12-2015, 02:36 AM
So that is why answering a battle with a Lunge did not help. Huh. I did not know this. This is good information. Very unintuitive, but I can play around it from now on. That comprehensive rulebook would sure be handy.

ziggarius
08-12-2015, 06:15 AM
So that is why answering a battle with a Lunge did not help. Huh. I did not know this. This is good information. Very unintuitive, but I can play around it from now on. That comprehensive rulebook would sure be handy.

Check the faqs that were posted earlier in the thread. Comes from the devs and explains a lot of the less known interactions.

Ertzi
08-12-2015, 06:21 AM
Check the faqs that were posted earlier in the thread. Comes from the devs and explains a lot of the less known interactions.

Yeah, thanks. Downloaded them both. Will take a closer look when I have more time. I have no idea how I missed these.

ziggarius
08-12-2015, 06:28 AM
Welcome and no worries. They're easy to miss regrettably.

Personally i would like to see those implemented into the client, indexed and accessible even while a game is going. Lol

Vorpal
08-12-2015, 06:35 AM
It is not at all what you would expect and I remember being very unpleasantly surprised when my swifftstrike troop died in a survival of the fittest combat.

The fact that other abilities do work in battles makes it extra confusing.

Xenavire
08-12-2015, 06:47 AM
It is not at all what you would expect and I remember being very unpleasantly surprised when my swifftstrike troop died in a survival of the fittest combat.

The fact that other abilities do work in battles makes it extra confusing.

Only lethal and lifedrain, which both trigger from damage. All other abilities affect what can and can't block, change the outcomes of combat, etc. I guess 'prevent damage' and 'invincible' technically count too, but those affect combat as well.

Once you know how these things work it is perfectly logical.

Vorpal
08-12-2015, 06:56 AM
Once you know how these things work it is perfectly logical.

It's easy to ex post facto rationalize a system as logical. A truly logical system makes its logic apparent before you already understand how everything works.

For a vet I'm sure it's easy to say "Oh yeah, it all makes perfect sense" but as is evident, to a new player, these interactions are surprising.

Svenn
08-12-2015, 07:01 AM
It's easy to ex post facto rationalize a system as logical. A truly logical system makes its logic apparent before you already understand how everything works.

For a vet I'm sure it's easy to say "Oh yeah, it all makes perfect sense" but as is evident, to a new player, these interactions are surprising.
The most important thing about a TCG is that the wording is very precise. If the troops were meant to have a combat it would say combat. It doesn't though, it says battle. Maybe the problem is we need to make new players understand the importance of wording.

Xenavire
08-12-2015, 07:41 AM
Vorpal, new players learn about keywords mostly by experimenting with them - and battle is essentially just another keyword (used to describe a specific action.) All it really needs is a disclaimer in a keyword bubble that states 'Battle does not count as combat' and it will make things a good deal more logical.

Vorpal
08-12-2015, 07:59 AM
Vorpal, new players learn about keywords mostly by experimenting with them - and battle is essentially just another keyword (used to describe a specific action.) All it really needs is a disclaimer in a keyword bubble that states 'Battle does not count as combat' and it will make things a good deal more logical.

I agree, that would make things a lot more newbie friendly.

Terras
08-12-2015, 11:34 AM
Specifically not combat damage. Regular damage. Combat damage occurs only during the combat phase, and only from the portion of that phase that causes creatures to deal their combat damage as a turn-based effect.

If lethal and lifedrain work, it's combat damage. If they don't, then you're right.

Gwaer
08-12-2015, 11:38 AM
Lethal and life drain don't only work in combat damage. They work with any damage dealt. That's why putting exhaust to deal one damage to troop on a troop with lethal is amazing. So is turret ed wall with life drain

hex_colin
08-12-2015, 12:04 PM
So is turret ed wall with life drain

And the Mentalist Inspire. I miss 1-1-1... Although 3-3-3 is awesome too! :)

Xenavire
08-12-2015, 01:41 PM
And the Mentalist Inspire. I miss 1-1-1... Although 3-3-3 is awesome too! :)

There must be a way to use that combo in arena though!

Saeijou
08-12-2015, 02:34 PM
There must be a way to use that combo in arena though!

to slow... there are more efficient possebilities

Xenavire
08-12-2015, 02:40 PM
to slow... there are more efficient possebilities

People play the storm deck, so I think its safe to say some people don't mind a slower deck now and then. :p

Saeijou
08-12-2015, 03:32 PM
People play the storm deck, so I think its safe to say some people don't mind a slower deck now and then. :p

okay, let me rephrase... it's to slow and not powerful enough :D

Xenavire
08-12-2015, 03:34 PM
okay, let me rephrase... it's to slow and not powerful enough :D

I dunno... It's a one-sided Cerebral Fulmination that does damage. I am sure the right kind of deck would be rather powerful with it. :p

strive
03-31-2016, 11:05 PM
This has been happening to me a lot recently since everyone and their grandmother plays wintermoon. It's stupid and needs to be changed, whether its working as intended or not.

essif
03-31-2016, 11:29 PM
When I started out, I expected battle to behave as combat and take swiftstrike into account.

I don't really mind either way, as long as I know how it works, but to me it seems the most intuitive.

It would also give room for more tricks, and therefor more interaction.

strawwmann
04-01-2016, 12:22 AM
Yet another situation where a rulebook would be great.

I find the rules from the other game a helpful place to start (using the original keywords):
Fight - MtG Salvation (http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Fight)
This explains 'Battle' pretty well.

(The rules are so similar you just have to be careful for the rare traps where mechanics work slightly differently :) )

I have to admit, the first time I tried to protect a troop by giving it Swift Strike in response to an opponent targeting it for Battle I expected it would save my troop & was surprised that it did not (so looked up the MtG rules above).

Zophie
04-01-2016, 01:01 AM
This has been happening to me a lot recently since everyone and their grandmother plays wintermoon. It's stupid and needs to be changed, whether its working as intended or not.

Please don't necro old threads

Zantetsuken
04-01-2016, 05:31 AM
This has been happening to me a lot recently since everyone and their grandmother plays wintermoon. It's stupid and needs to be changed, whether its working as intended or not.

While you're not necroing old threads, realize that Battle was made as answer for green to have a form of board removal. In other words, it's meant to counter things like Swiftstrike and Flight. You can't change the rules for your convenience.

Kami
04-01-2016, 06:27 AM
Please don't necro very old threads. That and the question regarding this rule has already been answered.