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bizznach
08-11-2015, 10:53 PM
but today i sat around for hours watching one legendary card.
no bids for 2 hours.
then a last bid literally 2 seconds before auction is over.
not the first time neither...
y'all sure there are no bots?

Fyren
08-11-2015, 10:58 PM
but today i sat around for hours watching one legendary card.
no bids for 2 hours.
then a last bid literally 2 seconds before auction is over.
not the first time neither...
y'all sure there are no bots?

Yes. Or at very least, that is not compelling evidence of a bot's existence.

bizznach
08-11-2015, 11:00 PM
why yes?

Fyren
08-11-2015, 11:03 PM
why yes?

My followup was more accurate; I cannot prove that negative, of course. But what you state is not evidence for bots existing.

It's possible to sort by "Time Remaining," and that Time Remaining sort is accurate, you can see the next auction in a category that is about to expire. Therefore such sniping is entirely possible under the current AH system without automation.

Khazrakh
08-11-2015, 11:03 PM
why yes?

Why should it be?
Sort by time left, check for card you want to buy, wait until it's the next piece that will sell, bid on it, GG ;)

bizznach
08-11-2015, 11:11 PM
neither of these explanations make any sense.
sort by time remaining but as far as i can figure...unless you are sure of when a card gets posted(or the one above it) its pretty suspect that its possible to pinpoint down to the second but i guess that people can just get lucky...a few times a week

Mejis
08-11-2015, 11:15 PM
neither of these explanations make any sense.
sort by time remaining but as far as i can figure...unless you are sure of when a card gets posted(or the one above it) its pretty suspect that its possible to pinpoint down to the second but i guess that people can just get lucky...a few times a week

It's actually very possible to know fairly accurately when a card will expire.
Not sure if it should be encouraged, plus this has been discussed before (sure you can find the threads by searching), so I don't want myself to get into potential trouble by discussing further (I don't know if it is an issue to discuss it, so just going to play it safe).

zadies
08-11-2015, 11:18 PM
If this was a pupil of creation I am absolutely sure it wasn't botted because I had bid on it about 24 hours ago and was waiting till the very end instead of driving the price up the entire time. Also there is an absolutely accurate way to tell what the next auction to expire is going to be just not exactly when that auction will expire... but enh knowing it's one of the next 5 auctions to expire make it fairly easy to snipe.

Khazrakh
08-11-2015, 11:20 PM
I don't see it as an issue, it's how the system works so it's fairplay to talk about it. Also it's not exactly rocket science ;)

If you only list all copies of a certain card, you'll have a hard time figuring out when it's going to end, but if you look at the whole picture it's rather easy to estimate the exact moment it's going to expire. With ten thousands of items on the Auction House the next card that's going to expire will do so pretty soon no matter what time of the day you look at it.

Phenteo
08-12-2015, 12:31 AM
We monitor auction house utilization on a frequent basis. It may seem at times a bot is in there, but people (just like you) also sit and wait for various ways of playing the auction house.

israel.kendall
08-12-2015, 12:48 AM
I don't snipe personally, but I do spend a fair amount of time on the AH and actually enjoy it. So I wholeheartedly believe there are people who actually enjoy sitting there for hours sniping things. Though I've never actually met one.

Khazrakh
08-12-2015, 01:07 AM
I don't snipe personally, but I do spend a fair amount of time on the AH and actually enjoy it. So I wholeheartedly believe there are people who actually enjoy sitting there for hours sniping things. Though I've never actually met one.

I sometimes do when I by chance see something worthwhile expire soonish.
It's fun when you succeed butw nothing I'd enjoy to do on a regular basis.

israel.kendall
08-12-2015, 01:20 AM
I sometimes do when I by chance see something worthwhile expire soonish.
It's fun when you succeed butw nothing I'd enjoy to do on a regular basis.

See I knew you were out there! I imagine on the more popular rares and legendaries there would be a lot of competition.

Mejis
08-12-2015, 02:39 AM
I actually got super lucky on some A As at the weekend for a couple of hundred gold a piece. It was easy to see they were about to end (as said above, given the thousands of pages, if sorting by time, the first card listed has a high chance of ending almost immediately).
So thanks whomever posted those cheap AAs I snatched.

You can also see what has just been listed. But that then means waiting for 48 hrs to grab it at the end. Again, some people enjoy AH hunting :)

malloc31
08-12-2015, 07:04 AM
I agree that it is not bots but just snipping. Though I think it is not a good thing and it is a good reason they should implement a different AH system. The way it is now it is nearly impossible to win anything that ends while you are not online, unless you are willing to overbid (and then you are stuck with the buyers remorse from knowing you could have had it cheaper). I would be happy with ebay style bidding though would be happy with anything that is not this.

MatWith1T
08-12-2015, 09:04 AM
neither of these explanations make any sense.
sort by time remaining but as far as i can figure...unless you are sure of when a card gets posted(or the one above it) its pretty suspect that its possible to pinpoint down to the second but i guess that people can just get lucky...a few times a week

You are assuming someone else or a bot was targeting that one specific card. If someone is sniping, you just sort by time left and look at the top cards. They're going to expire in a matter of seconds. If you like the price, grab one, if not, hit refresh and look at the next about to expire option. They don't have to be looking to snipe that specific card, they just saw a bargain and snatched it

Yuhan
08-12-2015, 09:16 AM
Yeah... I can honestly say. I have NEVER won an AH bid before just because I don't snipe.

I'm a casual player. I can't really spend time calculating when an auction expires because I would rather do something else like actually playing the game with my limited time.

People like me are forced to buyout almost every god damn time just because they refuse to spend their time and effort in sniping.
I'm glad for the snipers, they did spend that time and effort and I feel they should be rewarded. It just sucks that it has to be at the cost of me :(

So in the end. I feel like this AH is unsuitable at it's current state for players like me. I'm forced to buyout for pretty much anything I want and it sucks.

Edit: spelling

Timlagor
08-12-2015, 10:34 AM
For crying out loud give us a decent system! There are at least three ways it could be vaguely decent.

Elwinz
08-12-2015, 10:38 AM
I have won many many bis on rares and legendaries without snipingg. At first i thought its pointless but its not. Surei lose a lot of the m but once u get some it fill so good.

Khazrakh
08-12-2015, 10:40 AM
Not saying that the current system is good (it's not, but it's working for now) but people really just should learn to adapt - list the item as buyout for the price you are willing to sell it and have the bidding start exactly one plat/gold lower - voila, problem solved ;)

Yoss
08-12-2015, 10:51 AM
Just ignore the whole bid system and you'll be much happier. Buyouts are the way to go.

Meanwhile, I hope we get a real Bid Listing system so that I can place generic "Sell Now" listings up for items that have a current buyout that is too high for me. Then when the next seller comes along he has the option to make an immediate sale to me at my price or he can proceed to do a normal Ask Listing.

For example, say I want a Stormcoat, but I'm only willing to pay 4kp. Current listings on the AH are at 9kp. I would go and place my own Bid Listing (like a Wanted Ad) for a Stormcoat at 4kp. My bid would then show up to all players who browse for Stormcoats. A seller could sell to me at 4kp immediately, or could put up his listing at 8kp and wait for a buyer.

ossuary
08-12-2015, 10:54 AM
The current system does not support sellers that encourage bidding, it's as simple as that. If you list an item for a small price and no buyout, you WILL lose money vs. just listing it for what it's worth. One random person from all the people who see it when it was first posted and made a note of the time will snap it up within the last 10 seconds, and everyone else will just miss out on the deal. You're never going to make a profit by listing something really low and hoping a bidding war will start - so don't even try.

Like Khazrakh says - adapt. There are no bots, there are just people who pay attention and have time on their hands.

regomar
08-12-2015, 12:12 PM
This whole thing REALLY needs to be fixed. These snipers calculating which auction is about to expire ruins the entire experience for 99% of people, forcing buyouts and discouraging bidding.

nicosharp
08-12-2015, 12:16 PM
This whole thing REALLY needs to be fixed. These snipers calculating which auction is about to expire ruins the entire experience for 99% of people, forcing buyouts and discouraging bidding.
How does bidding on an item ruin the experience for people bidding on an item???
Perplexing...
If the item is worth sniping, those bidding aren't paying a realistic price for the item.

hex_colin
08-12-2015, 12:16 PM
Sure, I'd like an AH with all the bells and whistles, but I'd prefer the rest of the game first.

I really don't see what the issue is - folks should be posting stuff for the minimum they'd like to get out of it. And the number they be comfortable getting as a buyout.

Turboflex
08-12-2015, 12:32 PM
yeah I really don't understand how people are not just doing that.

Maybe it's just laziness to list it at 1p or 1g? But must be annoying for your cards to sell for 23g.

Mejis
08-12-2015, 01:04 PM
The current system does not support sellers that encourage bidding, it's as simple as that. If you list an item for a small price and no buyout, you WILL lose money vs. just listing it for what it's worth. One random person from all the people who see it when it was first posted and made a note of the time will snap it up within the last 10 seconds, and everyone else will just miss out on the deal. You're never going to make a profit by listing something really low and hoping a bidding war will start - so don't even try.

Like Khazrakh says - adapt. There are no bots, there are just people who pay attention and have time on their hands.

What about if a reserve price system was implemented?

Tazelbain
08-12-2015, 01:09 PM
I think something as simple as defaulting the asking price to 75% of buy-out price would go a long way.

Turtlewing
08-12-2015, 01:11 PM
yeah I really don't understand how people are not just doing that.

Maybe it's just laziness to list it at 1p or 1g? But must be annoying for your cards to sell for 23g.

Mostly I think it's bad habits from other auction systems.

The starting bid should be the lowest amount you will accept for the item, and the buyout should be the price at which you'd rather get that payment now rather than a larger price later. (ie, the starting bid should be low-average market value and the buyout should be over priced).

Auction systems with reserves, proxy bidding, etc. have different optimal behaviors mostly aimed at playing the sort algorithms against the buyer.

zadies
08-12-2015, 01:19 PM
This whole thing REALLY needs to be fixed. These snipers calculating which auction is about to expire ruins the entire experience for 99% of people, forcing buyouts and discouraging bidding.

You don't need to calculate anything at all... you just tag an item so it's easier to find in the my bids section and pay attention to what the interface tells you... no math at all needed.



I think something as simple as defaulting the asking price to 75% of buy-out price would go a long way.

Also the issue has nothing to do with what the seller posts the item for... it is thier choice... your issues are with that you didn't get a good deal so your saying that there should be no good deals on the ah which is kind of sad.

Jealousy is both reasonable and belongs to reasonable men, while envy is base and belongs to the base, for the one makes himself get good things by jealousy, while the other does not allow his neighbor to have them through envy.
-Aristotle

EntropyBall
08-12-2015, 02:06 PM
Sure, I'd like an AH with all the bells and whistles, but I'd prefer the rest of the game first.

I really don't see what the issue is - folks should be posting stuff for the minimum they'd like to get out of it. And the number they be comfortable getting as a buyout.

The issue with this is that a new or casual player may have a hard time determining the valuation of their cards, and may not want to spend the time figuring it out. If Hex had an AH with proxy bidding, they could feel comfortable setting a low starting bid, no (or a high) buyout, and letting the market tell them what the card is worth. The current system ensures you will get far below market value if you start with a low bid. Worse yet, I would wager most new players don't understand how bad the bid system is, so they get absolutely reamed when the put a low starting value and assume it will be bid up.

Not saying they should prioritize this above PVE, but I don't think its fair to say it isn't currently an issue.

Yoss
08-12-2015, 04:13 PM
The issue with this is that a new or casual player may have a hard time determining the valuation of their cards, and may not want to spend the time figuring it out. If Hex had an AH with proxy bidding, they could feel comfortable setting a low starting bid, no (or a high) buyout, and letting the market tell them what the card is worth. The current system ensures you will get far below market value if you start with a low bid. Worse yet, I would wager most new players don't understand how bad the bid system is, so they get absolutely reamed when the put a low starting value and assume it will be bid up.

Not saying they should prioritize this above PVE, but I don't think its fair to say it isn't currently an issue.

You know what's even better for communicating market information at a glance? Having a Bid/Ask system.

Look up an item. You see lowest Ask (AKA "buyout") at 100p and highest Bid (something the current AH doesn't have) at 90p. You know immediately that market price is 95p with a spread of 10p. Easy. No need for 3rd party data sites, other than to worry about longer term trends ("is today's market up or down relative to previous days?").

Jonesy
08-12-2015, 05:35 PM
Considering every time ive ever accidentally listed something for gold instead of plat its been bought before I can cancel it I think there are bots in the AH. I'll never believe there are people hitting refresh every 5 seconds 24 hours a day for rares and legendaries for <1000ish gold.

Yoss
08-12-2015, 05:37 PM
Considering every time ive ever accidentally listed something for gold instead of plat its been bought before I can cancel it I think there are bots in the AH. I'll never believe there are people hitting refresh every 5 seconds 24 hours a day for rares and legendaries for <1000ish gold.

Funny, I've been able to cancel my mistakes before they're bought out every single time. Once it even took me 30 minutes or more to do it.

Fyren
08-12-2015, 05:51 PM
Considering every time ive ever accidentally listed something for gold instead of plat its been bought before I can cancel it I think there are bots in the AH. I'll never believe there are people hitting refresh every 5 seconds 24 hours a day for rares and legendaries for <1000ish gold.

It's the inverse of bid sniping. Looking at the entries with the longest times remaining is a great way of finding recently listed mistakes. No bots needed.

ghulzen
08-12-2015, 09:35 PM
I find it silly that in a game where people are paying $75 for a single card, people think there aren't bots. If there aren't any bots currently, there WILL be. The question will always be how quickly they can be discovered and stopped.

Fyren
08-12-2015, 10:10 PM
I find it silly that in a game where people are paying $75 for a single card, people think there aren't bots. If there aren't any bots currently, there WILL be. The question will always be how quickly they can be discovered and stopped.

What some of us, at least, are arguing is not that there are no bots, but that there is an absence of compelling evidence that there are bots; "This transaction got sniped out from under me" is neither proof nor evidence, nor is "People have good reason to try."

hex_colin
08-12-2015, 10:20 PM
I find it silly that in a game where people are paying $75 for a single card, people think there aren't bots. If there aren't any bots currently, there WILL be. The question will always be how quickly they can be discovered and stopped.

Every time anyone does anything on the AH it gets logged - posting something, buying something, doing a search, etc. Knowing that it's trivial for HEX to look at a given account's activity and see if it's activity history is suspicious. Finding a bot would be trivial. They'd be logging many, many more activities, over longer periods of time, and with obvious consistency (timing, sequencing, etc.) than any human ever would. So, when HEX says they are monitoring it and are confident there are no bots, there are no bots. Anyone can believe whatever they want, but the only folks with actual actionable data are the HEX team.

Mejis
08-12-2015, 10:41 PM
It's the inverse of bid sniping. Looking at the entries with the longest times remaining is a great way of finding recently listed mistakes. No bots needed.

Exactly.
You can also actively watch what has just been listed, and then refresh e.g. every 30 seconds ...if you like doing that sort of thing. It's therefore quite easy to catch potential bargains that people might miss if they are just looking at items ending soon.

I really enjoy watching and searching the AH over breakfast and keeping an eye on the prices of things as the meta shifts. Also why I enjoy looking at price trends on e.g. hex.tcgbrowser.

EVE was (when I played) awesome for this. Keeping an eye on ore price fluctuations from system to system. Ahh, good times.

starwing
08-13-2015, 02:43 AM
I think if a person wants an ebay style auction house, well, there's always ebay! On the other hand, HEX is this amazing TCG where players have the opportunity to trade and "sell" their collected items via an in-game auction system that enables trading with the use of two in-game currencies--one that is purchased with real world currency, and one earned through in game activities. The auction house in HEX does not use real world currency and the items sold on the auction house do not possess real world value. ebay is a good system for real world buying and selling, and it has additional services and fees associated with that. Selling things on ebay can be an expensive undertaking because of all those bells and whistles that are paid for by the end users.

I would sincerely hope that the developers of HEX continue to focus on developing and improving the best online TCG ever made. I am perfectly comfortable with the current state of the Auction House, and I do win auctions. I often prefer the buyout feature because I am looking for a specific item most of the time when I go to the Auction House, but sometimes I see nice bid opportunities on the items I'm interested in. I will place a bid and go play a few matches, then bid again, and repeat until I am done with playing or win the auction. If I'm done playing, I just hope I won the auction. About 20% of the time, I actually do. If the item is particularly interesting/appealing, it's little wonder that someone else would want it too!

After reading this thread, I now understand why my higher priced items sell out first! LOL My pricing strategy was based on the idea of people searching for the individual items, rather than searching by the time remaining on the auctions. So this behaviour of bidding on closing auctions can be used to your own advantage--especially when there are many, many listings for the same item currently listed in the AH. I was accidentally taking advantage of this behaviour and couldn't figure out why people would buy my over-priced listings that were only there to point at the lower priced listing as a "good deal you should buy now" :p

I feel the AH is already better than I'd hoped for FROM A GAME, and I just don't want to see the developers pour all their resources into making an AH application rather than the most awesome TCG ever. I am far more interested in the PVE content and seeing the successful launch of this game--sooner rather than later.

israel.kendall
08-13-2015, 02:43 AM
Will this be another auction house related thread turned EVE thread? Stay tuned!

Yoss
08-13-2015, 12:56 PM
snip
"Do PvE first" is a completely reasonable priority. I agree completely.

I still thing the AH needs work, some day.

Zophie
08-13-2015, 01:02 PM
Every time anyone does anything on the AH it gets logged - posting something, buying something, doing a search, etc. Knowing that it's trivial for HEX to look at a given account's activity and see if it's activity history is suspicious. Finding a bot would be trivial. They'd be logging many, many more activities, over longer periods of time, and with obvious consistency (timing, sequencing, etc.) than any human ever would. So, when HEX says they are monitoring it and are confident there are no bots, there are no bots. Anyone can believe whatever they want, but the only folks with actual actionable data are the HEX team.

^ So much this. It's insane (in a good way) how much tracking is done on this game to protect the value of our collections, and it's very much appreciated to know that this has been a priority with HXE from the very beginning. :D

Timlagor
08-13-2015, 05:24 PM
Sure, I'd like an AH with all the bells and whistles, but I'd prefer the rest of the game first.

I really don't see what the issue is - folks should be posting stuff for the minimum they'd like to get out of it. And the number they be comfortable getting as a buyout.

The problem is that to post something I need to look at Hexprice then look at the 'Buy' tab on the AH just to get an idea of what the card is worth at the moment. That's a pretty major hassle when I have a whole bunch of duplicates I'd quite like to offload and might not be able to sell in 48hrs even if I put a reasonable price up.

The AH doesn't just 'have room for improvement', it's horrible. I can't sell easily at a market rate and I can't really hope to find bargains either without spending significant time/effort on the process.
All that without mentioning how ridiculous it is to only see about 3 cards at a time when what I want is basically a spreadsheet that could show me much more info on many many more cards.

I expect it's largely to do with programming the whole thing on a chassis designed for "shooters with levels" (that and the double backs making them treat every card like an individual even though I couldn't care less at this point the difference will be mostly negligible between most instances even once they are fully implemented).

I reckon the best solution would probably be to use something like the api to let a totally different (potentially 3rd party -you know there's be one within days) program handle the AH interface.

Timlagor
08-13-2015, 05:29 PM
"Do PvE first" is a completely reasonable priority. I agree completely.

I still thing the AH needs work, some day.

I don't think I agree.
PVE is huge and potentially endless.
Getting the AH to at least decently functional is probably comparatively small and would have a very positive effect. I understand the view that PVE is more important but when I stop to think about the AH it looks much worse than may be initially apparent.

Yoss
08-13-2015, 05:53 PM
There is no question that the remaining KS promises (at least the "core" ones) need to be fulfilled before an AH overhaul. We need dungeons, raids, and guilds at minimum before the AH gets any major upgrades. The AH is crappy, sure, but it works well enough for Beta. (And if you read around, you'll find that I'm one of the most vocal advocates for upgrading the AH. Now just isn't the time, much as it pains me to say so.)

asdf2000
08-13-2015, 07:32 PM
The problem is that to post something I need to look at Hexprice then look at the 'Buy' tab on the AH just to get an idea of what the card is worth at the moment. That's a pretty major hassle when I have a whole bunch of duplicates I'd quite like to offload and might not be able to sell in 48hrs even if I put a reasonable price up.

The AH doesn't just 'have room for improvement', it's horrible. I can't sell easily at a market rate and I can't really hope to find bargains either without spending significant time/effort on the process.
All that without mentioning how ridiculous it is to only see about 3 cards at a time when what I want is basically a spreadsheet that could show me much more info on many many more cards.

I expect it's largely to do with programming the whole thing on a chassis designed for "shooters with levels" (that and the double backs making them treat every card like an individual even though I couldn't care less at this point the difference will be mostly negligible between most instances even once they are fully implemented).

I reckon the best solution would probably be to use something like the api to let a totally different (potentially 3rd party -you know there's be one within days) program handle the AH interface.

How do you end by saying that someone else needs to handle the interface when all your complaints are with the general design, not the interface.

Which, btw, your complaints are silly. The market is controlled by players. It is not and it should not be Hex's responsibility to tell you what things are worth. If you can't "sell at market rate" then lower the price....

Yoss
08-13-2015, 08:57 PM
The problem is, right now the AH only contains half of the market information available, and that's the supply side. We can only see what sellers are willing to sell and at what prices. We cannot see what buyers are willing to buy and at what prices. Therefore, when we see a price of 500p for an Ask (buyout), we don't know if that's representative of market price or not, all we can say is that it is most likely at or above market price. It's like giving us only the Supply curve of a Supply/Demand chart and asking us to determine the equilibrium point; it's not possible without more information. If we had a real (non-auction) Bid system, one would always know market price and would always be able to sell immediately at slightly below market price (or post the item for future sale at slightly above market price).

asdf2000
08-13-2015, 09:04 PM
Well that will happen naturally when player base is larger. Until then there are tools for looking at the general price of things. It's really not hard to find, even for someone who has no clue. "hex auction house" "hex card values" i mean any of it in google will come up with reasonable estimations.

And if one is not willing to do a modicum of research, I would suggest that they don't deserve to get full value from their items.

If someone thinks the current prices undervalue their items, then they can buy instead of sell. That's a choice they can make. Or they can just wait.

I really just don't see the problem.

Yoss
08-13-2015, 09:07 PM
I just hate it when I'm forced to say "MTGO does it better" about anything. Hex is better in many ways, but this isn't one of them (yet). On MTGO, when you come out of a draft, you can liquidate your cards within minutes and jump in another draft. In Hex, you'll be lucky to liquidate them all within 24 hours.

asdf2000
08-13-2015, 09:15 PM
That's a fair thing to say. I can see how being able to sell your cards more quickly is better. How much of that do you think is because mtgo has more players though?

wolzarg
08-13-2015, 09:26 PM
And basically automated buyers that take a hefty cut. I'm not saying i personally would but if you where willing to sell at the cut price that the trading bots take it wouldn't surprise me if you found someone who likes the market enough to have a standing deal to buy at 60% of median price for the last two weeks for most cards and 80% for higher value ones.

Jeevus
08-14-2015, 04:42 AM
I have to agree on that. If you would sell your drft stuff the way you do in mtg (which would be at maybe 80% buy value, if not less) you wouldnt have a problem to liquidate your cards fast. It's just the fact that the AH offers you a way to get the real card value (at that given point), feels like you can't sell the cards immediately.

malloc31
08-14-2015, 06:58 AM
All I want is When I am looking at what card I want to list (to sell in the AH) next, when I mouse over the card I get a pop up with the current lowest buyout in both plat and gold for that item.

No big overhall just one thing that would make listing items 100% easier.

(also being able to search only cards you don't have 4 of or equipment you don't have any of would be great but I could live longer without that)

israel.kendall
08-14-2015, 02:11 PM
I just hate it when I'm forced to say "MTGO does it better" about anything. Hex is better in many ways, but this isn't one of them (yet). On MTGO, when you come out of a draft, you can liquidate your cards within minutes and jump in another draft. In Hex, you'll be lucky to liquidate them all within 24 hours.

I completely disagree, the HEX AH is about 100 times better than the horid MTGO bot mess.

Jonesy
08-14-2015, 04:17 PM
I completely disagree, the HEX AH is about 100 times better than the horid MTGO bot mess.

Seriously, trading, with tickets, with 1 dollar the smallest increment? What an antiquated mess. Sure the AH could be set up better and lots of time saving fixes could be made but overall it works just fine.

Yoss
08-14-2015, 05:54 PM
I am not saying I like everything about the MTGO market. I am saying I like one particular thing about it, and that's the pseudo Bid/Ask system that their bots provide. I would say the Hex market is better than MTGO in many respects, and if Hex were to add a Bid system to complement the existing Ask system, it should then be better than MTGO in every way. With a player-run market (instead of the MTGO bots), I would guess margins on Market Sell Orders would tighten up, especially if Demand was persistent (long listing timers) and the Supply remained artificially restricted through short listing timers.

israel.kendall
08-14-2015, 06:10 PM
Bid ask system just leads to card unavailability and middlemen to buy cards and resell them to people. I see where you say it helps drafters unload cards, but I feel like it hurts a constructed player buying cards to build a deck.

ossuary
08-14-2015, 07:04 PM
Bid ask system just leads to card unavailability and middlemen to buy cards and resell them to people. I see where you say it helps drafters unload cards, but I feel like it hurts a constructed player buying cards to build a deck.

Uh... what?

A Bid/Ask System guarantees you can either buy a card immediately for the current fair market price, or just put in how much you're willing to pay and wait for someone to offer it at that price. At no point does BAS punish anyone trying to build a deck.

israel.kendall
08-14-2015, 11:52 PM
Uh... what?

A Bid/Ask System guarantees you can either buy a card immediately for the current fair market price, or just put in how much you're willing to pay and wait for someone to offer it at that price. At no point does BAS punish anyone trying to build a deck.

We currently have some cards at some times unavailable for purchase in plat. Bids will cut off cards from the sell side making this a problem. If ten copies of Reese isn't enough to supply the current demand, cut 4 copies that were bought at bid from the sales listings. And the guy who wins the bid will likely be someone with constant buy orders to work the margin for profit. So the player looking for Reese will likely have to wait for that bid buyer to relist the card at a profit, thus being just an unneeded middle man.

x78089
08-15-2015, 06:07 AM
We currently have some cards at some times unavailable for purchase in plat. Bids will cut off cards from the sell side making this a problem. If ten copies of Reese isn't enough to supply the current demand, cut 4 copies that were bought at bid from the sales listings. And the guy who wins the bid will likely be someone with constant buy orders to work the margin for profit. So the player looking for Reese will likely have to wait for that bid buyer to relist the card at a profit, thus being just an unneeded middle man.

He wont get them if the "real" buyers big higher.......so then the system is functioning correctly.

Yoss
08-15-2015, 03:19 PM
We currently have some cards at some times unavailable for purchase in plat. Bids will cut off cards from the sell side making this a problem. If ten copies of Reese isn't enough to supply the current demand, cut 4 copies that were bought at bid from the sales listings. And the guy who wins the bid will likely be someone with constant buy orders to work the margin for profit. So the player looking for Reese will likely have to wait for that bid buyer to relist the card at a profit, thus being just an unneeded middle man.
You realize that the supply drops are because of the short listing timers, right?

Gwaer
08-15-2015, 04:15 PM
You realize that the supply drops are because of the short listing timers, right?

You realize you have no way of actually knowing that, right?

israel.kendall
08-15-2015, 04:21 PM
You realize that the supply drops are because of the short listing timers, right?

It doesn't matter about the timers. All things being the same, if 10 people were selling copies of Reese, and 4 of them get intercepted by bid orders, then only 6 of them make it to AH postings. If these ten cards would not satisfy current demand, then the 6 that made it under your system would fail worse to satisfy demand. You are proposing changes to listing timers now?

zadies
08-15-2015, 04:37 PM
Yoss is proposing anything and everything that will drive prices of cards down by making the AH simpler to use. I'm not actually sure a "better" ah is actually better for the population of the game that tries to go infinite drafting while it is better for the ocd collectors who want to get everything as easily and cheaply as possible. The current ah with it's flaws actually favors those trying to go infinite in draft. Yoss can make any argument he wants but the end results of his AH modifications will be to drive card prices down overall. The rael question becomes is the AH there for the collector to be able to buy and sell and rock bottom prices or is it there to allow for the flow of goods which it accomplishes just fine now.

Prominis
08-15-2015, 05:09 PM
Yoss is proposing anything and everything that will drive prices of cards down by making the AH simpler to use. I'm not actually sure a "better" ah is actually better for the population of the game that tries to go infinite drafting while it is better for the ocd collectors who want to get everything as easily and cheaply as possible. The current ah with it's flaws actually favors those trying to go infinite in draft. Yoss can make any argument he wants but the end results of his AH modifications will be to drive card prices down overall. The rael question becomes is the AH there for the collector to be able to buy and sell and rock bottom prices or is it there to allow for the flow of goods which it accomplishes just fine now.

Well to be honest, I'd say that that's a loaded question. You're saying that the question here is whether to allow collectors to buy for cheaper or if the auction house is meant for exchanging items. However, not only collectors want rock bottom prices (humans have an almost universal compulsion to be efficient, and getting the most bang out of your buck is similar).

I would liken this instead to whether you want to drive a car or a tricycle. Sure the tricycle works fine and the car requires more effort plus money, but the car is going to be better for a larger portion of users because it's just better at getting places. It's a bigger time (licence) and money (gas) investment over the tricycle even though it's a stronger pick overall.

You make it out as if the only people who want to get things cheaper are collectors, even declaring them to all have obsessive compulsive disorder (although I assume that's hyperbole), whereas cards costing less benefits virtually everyone who buys more from the auction house than they sell. One big section of the game's population that practically does that by definition is the F2P players, as they will need to get cards from the auction house or via trade since they don't spend real cash. Higher prices means more grinding, and more grinding means more time.

It's a great way to put a spin on things though, to say that only collectors who have OCD want cheaper prices though.

On another note, my personal opinion is that the current AH is fine, because as you said, it works. Still, like with the car and the tricycle, just because it works doesn't mean you want to use it forever. An AH update would be nice, but I don't really think it's important or necessary as opposed to the things currently in development.

Yoss
08-15-2015, 05:58 PM
It doesn't matter about the timers. All things being the same, if 10 people were selling copies of Reese, and 4 of them get intercepted by bid orders, then only 6 of them make it to AH postings. If these ten cards would not satisfy current demand, then the 6 that made it under your system would fail worse to satisfy demand. You are proposing changes to listing timers now?

Are you saying that demand would go down? That's the only way what you're saying makes sense to me. If 4 Asks "get intercepted" that's 4 units of demand that have been satisfied, so the 6 remaining have a smaller remaining demand pool to compensate for the smaller supply pool.

I've proposed changes to listing timers several times, but that's not what I'm talking about at the moment. At least for now I've come to terms with Chark's game of price inflation through artificial supply restriction caused by the use of short listing timers. And if that's the game he wants to play, he can continue to play it with Bid Orders by letting the demand listings have very long listing timers so that demand is glutted while supply is limited.

@zadies:
The purpose of a market is to exchange goods. Plain and simple. See post 66.

zadies
08-15-2015, 06:30 PM
You make it out as if the only people who want to get things cheaper are collectors, even declaring them to all have obsessive compulsive disorder (although I assume that's hyperbole), whereas cards costing less benefits virtually everyone who buys more from the auction house than they sell. One big section of the game's population that practically does that by definition is the F2P players, as they will need to get cards from the auction house or via trade since they don't spend real cash. Higher prices means more grinding, and more grinding means more time.

It's a great way to put a spin on things though, to say that only collectors who have OCD want cheaper prices though.


I am not actually sure that a good player who is f2p actually benefits more from lower prices then the higher ones caused by the current ah. Making being able to go infinite in drafting easier to obtain with a bare bones ah makes the goal more achievable and something that a f2p player can strive for. It's really a question of collector vs drafter in regards the the AH. The AH as it currently is implemented is better for the drafter that wants to get the most money for their cards. Yes it might be harder to use then Yoss's suggestion but the pay out is worth the effort. For the collector who wants to get things as cheaply as possible it is not a great thing because they are having to pay more for the cards from someone who has no interest in completing a collection.

You are assuming in your f2p statement that the majority of them want to have a collection of cards and play construed rather then have an easier time going infinite in drafting. Currently a single win in comp draft will likely pay for a 2nd draft. If the prices for cards fall this would not be the case.

Costing less does not benefit everyone it only benefits those that want to play constructed or have a complete collection of cards. Lower prices actually make drafting worse.

Currently the higher prices cause a barrier to entry, but the higher prices also allow for a higher payout once you cross the entry threshold. Also the grind time for packs would be unaffected in all likelihood by implementing more features on the ah, only the grind time for individual cards, and thus from a f2p perspective if your goal is to draft then you are vastly increasing the grind time because you will now have to grind more between drafts.

You focused completely on the collectors portion and how I said it would benefit them while ignoring completely the consequences it would have on the drafting situation... very good spin because lower prices only helps someone trying to build a collection of cards.

Yoss the AH as currently implemented allows for the exchange of goods. The market is just balanced such that it is better for drafters due to the design of the AH rather then trying to make goods as cheap as possible.

Fyren
08-15-2015, 06:53 PM
Yoss is proposing anything and everything that will drive prices of cards down by making the AH simpler to use I'm not actually sure a "better" ah is actually better for the population of the game

Stop. Think. Fire a couple of synapses for once in your posting history, please. “The AH should suck so prices are higher?”

zadies
08-15-2015, 06:57 PM
You seem to think that I am not actually considering what I'm saying. There are three different segments of population in the game: the f2p, the collector/constructed player, and the drafter. The question is what effect lower card prices have on each segment of the population. Everyone always seems to argue that lower is better, and that is why we have no manufacturing jobs in the US and the wages have been stagnant for years.

Simply put I am saying it isn't as simple as lower prices benefit everyone. They don't and I am not talking about those individuals that want to manipulate the AH. There is a sizable chunk of the population of TCGs that only draft and don't care about ever having a collection or playing constructed, and simply put the current AH benefits that segment of the population.

The question really becomes what is the f2p players goal because when they are grinding for gold to exchange for plat it is to end up in one of the other two segments of the population.

Short answer if you are a drafter then yes.

israel.kendall
08-15-2015, 07:10 PM
Are you saying that demand would go down? That's the only way what you're saying makes sense to me. If 4 Asks "get intercepted" that's 4 units of demand that have been satisfied, so the 6 remaining have a smaller remaining demand pool to compensate for the smaller supply pool.

I've proposed changes to listing timers several times, but that's not what I'm talking about at the moment. At least for now I've come to terms with Chark's game of price inflation through artificial supply restriction caused by the use of short listing timers. And if that's the game he wants to play, he can continue to play it with Bid Orders by letting the demand listings have very long listing timers so that demand is glutted while supply is limited.

@zadies:
The purpose of a market is to exchange goods. Plain and simple. See post 66.

No that's not 4 units of demand satisfied. It's more likely going to be an auction house trader buying them to flip. The average card buyer I don't think is going to be using bid when trying to build a deck once they just get outbid +1 by active traders.

Yoss
08-15-2015, 07:10 PM
If the only thing you ever do is draft, there's still benefit to a good market. If you can sell your drafted cards quickly and efficiently, you can get back to the next draft faster. So I dispute your claim that drafters prefer the current inefficient market. Maybe some prefer the high friction market because they can't afford a dollar now and then to draft, but plenty of others will prefer time efficiency over money efficiency, especially if they're good at drafting.

As for your constantly assuming you know my motives (as if they matter for a logical discussion; go see the ad hominem fallacy), please stop. If you want my primary motive, it is this: I have limited time and I want my time in client to be mostly spent playing cards, not fighting market friction. I would think HXE wants this too. The less time players waste in the market, the more time they have to play the paid content where Hex makes the bulk of its money.

Incindium
08-15-2015, 07:15 PM
The AH is pretty good in my opinion right now. It takes a bit skill to use it optimally which means there is opportunity to use that to profit if you want to make the effort. It's better that the AH was in in Diablo 3 before they removed it.

Yoss
08-15-2015, 07:16 PM
No that's not 4 units of demand satisfied. It's more likely going to be an auction house trader buying them to flip. The average card buyer I don't think is going to be using bid when trying to build aa deck once they just get outbid +1 buy active traders.
If they're buying to flip, then that means they're going to relist and supply is unchanged, when averaged over time. Obviously the market makers are going to be there for profit. They're providing a service (liquidity) for a fee (margin). I will happily pay market makers their small fees in order to allow me to spend less time in the AH and more time in the game content.

zadies
08-15-2015, 07:41 PM
If the only thing you ever do is draft, there's still benefit to a good market. If you can sell your drafted cards quickly and efficiently, you can get back to the next draft faster. So I dispute your claim that drafters prefer the current inefficient market. Maybe some prefer the high friction market because they can't afford a dollar now and then to draft, but plenty of others will prefer time efficiency over money efficiency, especially if they're good at drafting.


No my claim is that it is easier to go infinite drafting with the current system. If you are someone who has the money to burn then your not going to like the system. Currently it is skewed in a way that it is much easier to go infinite off 1 win then it would be possible to otherwise, and this is in fact better for the f2p player that is looking to draft then lower prices would be. Also I would argue that if you were that interested in selling your items faster you would just post them at 75% the current AH rate which is likely better returns then you would get implementing the system you want.

Driving prices down is not good for 100% of the population(only some portion of it) even those that aren't playing the market. You seem to want to drive prices down to increase the speed things sell, but you could easily speed up the rate you sell things by putting them up at a discount from what is currently listed.

israel.kendall
08-15-2015, 08:05 PM
If they're buying to flip, then that means they're going to relist and supply is unchanged, when averaged over time. Obviously the market makers are going to be there for profit. They're providing a service (liquidity) for a fee (margin). I will happily pay market makers their small fees in order to allow me to spend less time in the AH and more time in the game content.

Supply is changed until that guy gets around to listing it. The buyer who would have been able to buy the card on demand under the current system will now be left waiting for the market flipper or someone else to list more Reese. This just swaps it from the drafter having to wait, instead with bid ask the constructed deck builder may be the one waiting.

Prominis
08-15-2015, 08:12 PM
snip

You actually bring up some good points, although I must say we'll have to agree to disagree on a few of them.
But so far from what I've seen, what you're saying boils down to one main point:
That point seems to be that although it may benefit those seeking to fill their collection, it doesn't help people who want to only draft/sealed/limited.

To which I disagree. First off, I would disagree that only collectors would want cards. As this is a card game, the majority of things you do involves cards. Playing with one set of cards (eg. starter deck) is dull, and you can burn out quite easily. For new players especially, lower prices would be great, since their decks are often sub-par for the arena without a good amount of Hex knowledge, AI exploitation, or tcg experience. Doing anything that doesn't involve limited (for example, the entire PvE side as far as we know) will benefit from lower prices. Trying out Johnny decks would be another. Basically anyone who wants to buy cards gets a little boost.

And then here's the kicker: limited formats do get a little bonus. Even if things sell for lower, they'd presumably sell faster. In the system Yoss proposes, if my understanding of it is what it is, you would be able to instantly sell or somewhere close to that. It'd be much faster than the current system of putting something up and hoping no one undercuts you and starts a new price trend that renders yours obsolete in the eyes of buyers. You might sell things for less sure, but you'd also be able to buy packs for cheaper. You'd sell things faster, so you have less work to do in relisting after your Rigid Buffalo doesn't sell. This means that anyone selling cards will (likely) sell them faster, with less (or in a perfect world, no) tedious relisting.

EDIT: I would also like to disagree with your opinion on what the F2P player wishes to do. I can't speak for the masses, nor can you, but I was of the belief (silly I know) that F2P also meant PvE, or at least implied that they'd be doing a lot of it. PvE was a huge hook, so I assume that more F2P players would gravitate towards it... once it's out anyway.
On another note, as a F2P player, I personally enjoy making oddball decks. I don't try to fill out my collection because I know it's nearly impossible unless I grind arena all day. What I do do with the gold I garner is make things I find amusing. An example would be a jovial pippit deck. In fact, Jovial Pippit is the only rare playset I own because it amuses me. There's more for a F2P player to do than drafting.


Driving prices down is not good for 100% of the population(only some portion of it) even those that aren't playing the market. You seem to want to drive prices down to increase the speed things sell, but you could easily speed up the rate you sell things by putting them up at a discount from what is currently listed.
As for this, I find that most people don't want to sell for less. Even if they do, the possibility of the above happening is still possible: people may follow your example and lower their prices to suit yours.
On the reverse, I'd wager that driving prices up would be worse for a greater chunk of that 100% than driving them down. I still don't believe that more people choose to limit their playing to solely draft than people playing constructed, PvE, or a mix of them all.

zadies
08-15-2015, 08:31 PM
Prominis you missed the entire point in the last comment you quoted... people don't want to sell for less but in Yoss's system everyone is forced to sell for less, the option in the current system is you can sell for less if speed is an issue for you rather then being forced to sell fast at a lower cost then you can currently get under the current system. Yoss is arguing that speed > price, while the current system allows for the choice of either.

The fact is that packs will likely never sell for less then 160p... it makes a hard price point which means that pack prices can fall from 20p which is about 15% of the current price, while cards will likely fall much further and faster then that pushing most cards to the floor price. Given the fact that 70% of the cards in the game currently sell at the price floor in plat should give you pause... Yoss has previously argued against the plat floor, and I really don't see CZE removing it which means that most cards will end up being traded 100% in gold.

Yoss
08-15-2015, 08:47 PM
Supply is changed until that guy gets around to listing it. The buyer who would have been able to buy the card on demand under the current system will now be left waiting for the market flipper or someone else to list more Reese. This just swaps it from the drafter having to wait, instead with bid ask the constructed deck builder may be the one waiting.

I think you overestimate the effect of a delay on any one particular atom. A flipper will be constantly flipping. At any given moment there will be things happening on both sides of the flip and in equal (fluctuating) volume: flipper buying and flipper relisting. The fact that a particular atom is delayed slightly from showing up as an Ask is largely irrelevant. What's important is that the flippers, taken en masse, have zero net effect on supply, they merely provide liquidity (in both directions).

Prominis
08-15-2015, 09:02 PM
Prominis you missed the entire point in the last comment you quoted... people don't want to sell for less but in Yoss's system everyone is forced to sell for less, the option in the current system is you can sell for less if speed is an issue for you rather then being forced to sell fast at a lower cost then you can currently get under the current system. Yoss is arguing that speed > price, while the current system allows for the choice of either.

The fact is that packs will likely never sell for less then 160p... it makes a hard price point which means that pack prices can fall from 20p which is about 15% of the current price, while cards will likely fall much further and faster then that pushing most cards to the floor price. Given the fact that 70% of the cards in the game currently sell at the price floor in plat should give you pause... Yoss has previously argued against the plat floor, and I really don't see CZE removing it which means that most cards will end up being traded 100% in gold.

That is true, good point. Although given that so many cards already sell for rock bottom, I'm not sure how much it'd affect the prices of commons and other common removal/staples that would be a go-to pick in draft.

On another note, flippers confuse me. For a moment there I thought that was about perpetual motion machines.

israel.kendall
08-15-2015, 09:10 PM
I think you overestimate the effect of a delay on any one particular atom. A flipper will be constantly flipping. At any given moment there will be things happening on both sides of the flip and in equal (fluctuating) volume: flipper buying and flipper relisting. The fact that a particular atom is delayed slightly from showing up as an Ask is largely irrelevant. What's important is that the flippers, taken en masse, have zero net effect on supply, they merely provide liquidity (in both directions).

I play the AH, and under your system would surely be flipping my way to profits. But we all sleep and eat and live. Those hours mean more hours deck builders are waiting to buy. We already have times when a full playsets of a card may not even be available for purchase. Any cards removed from ask listings could make it a real problem IMO. It's inserting unneeded middle men into the market.

Clawdius
08-16-2015, 02:08 AM
We monitor auction house utilization on a frequent basis. It may seem at times a bot is in there, but people (just like you) also sit and wait for various ways of playing the auction house.

I'm inclined to believe that, I know that I will sit and bid on things the moment I'm outbid and eventually break the spirit of the person trying to ninja the item I'm sitting on. I got a cut of the mountain earlier today, and I should get a Talisman of Vitae here shortly.

Timlagor
08-16-2015, 07:52 AM
How do you end by saying that someone else needs to handle the interface when all your complaints are with the general design, not the interface.

Which, btw, your complaints are silly. The market is controlled by players. It is not and it should not be Hex's responsibility to tell you what things are worth. If you can't "sell at market rate" then lower the price....

I have problems with the general design and the interface. The whole thing is horrible. A good interface would mitigate a lot of the design problems.

I can't see what the market rate is to sell at it (i can take a stab by looking at Hexprice for historic data and also the Ah buy for the specific card for what current offerings are like but this takes significant time making it impractical to put everything I'd offer on the AH (I'm sure the same applies to most people) thereby (massively) distorting the market (though perhaps not for the most expensive (1kp+) cards.

Timlagor
08-16-2015, 08:16 AM
Talking about removing supply by ask listing is ridiculous when only a fraction of the potential supply gets on the AH at the moment.

Interface says I can't see (with any kind of ease) what's undersupplied.
It takes me significant time to list anything (and more to delete the annoying mails when it doesn't sell since that interface is similarly horrible).
I have hundreds of cards (including rares/legendaries) I'd list in a heartbeat if it was quick and easy to offer them at a decent price and my collection is not all that large.

I don't mind too much if there's a bit of room for speculators but a good market system would reduce that room considerably by making it much easier for people to see prices and to get those prices from the auctions.

Currently the AH is a middleman's paradise. It's not collectors or drafters who benefit from the current system: it's people who are willing to play the AH instead of playing HEX. I want to play HEX. I am very unlikely to get a bargain and I have to spend significant time before putting anything up for sale because if I don't research the price I'll probably give a sniper a bargain or not make a sale at all.
AUCTIONS DO NOT HAPPEN in any meaningful sense

There are at least three ways the system could be massively improved (as a market system and to the benefit of the overwhelming majority -even some snipers have said they'd prefer it):
* Bid/Ask
* Ebay system (automated bidding up to your limit) -I realise ebay is rife with sniping: AH is so bad it would still be a huge improvement!
* auction extensions when a new high bid is made (depending on how big the ext this could kill sniping)


Not being any kind of expert: is it as silly as it sounds to use Unity for the AH?


I find the suggestion that people who don't want to spend (waste) time researching prices before making listings deserve to get ripped off positively offensive.

Falaris
08-16-2015, 08:36 AM
Just because you're too lazy to pay attention to daily/weekly valuations for cards doesn't mean the system is flawed. As you've already mentioned, you have a guidepost in HexPrice that gives you a rough estimate as to a cards value for recent history.

The AH system isn't perfect, but there are significantly more important things for HXE to focus on atm than to optimize you getting 57 plat for an item instead of 55 plat.

Yoss
08-16-2015, 01:44 PM
I play the AH, and under your system would surely be flipping my way to profits. But we all sleep and eat and live. Those hours mean more hours deck builders are waiting to buy. We already have times when a full playsets of a card may not even be available for purchase. Any cards removed from ask listings could make it a real problem IMO. It's inserting unneeded middle men into the market.

A more efficient market will become a bigger market. People who otherwise wouldn't bother will suddenly start participating in the market and that's good for everyone.

Think
08-16-2015, 02:29 PM
Okay, if there are truly no bots, then I'm super impressed by the skills of some of you AH traders! Outbidding my (seemingly uncontested) highest bid faster than the time it takes to click "refresh" and having the same card re-listed all within 15 seconds... Your twitch skills are amazing!

Obviously this is all circumstantial evidence, but it sure doesn't feel coincidental. I'll just have to feel good about all this plat I keep getting back in the mail! (If only that would artificially grow my account)

wolzarg
08-17-2015, 12:52 AM
The problem is that behavior like the one you just described would be stupidly easy to identify if it was on a scale worth of even running a bot for. Unless you think someone has a bot running for a specific card and sniping and relisting with a set time between allowed buys at which point i say possible but seemingly pointless as any card worth that amount of effort doesn't have enough overhead in the market currently.

That is if we ignore the volatility of the market where prices can go up and down several hundred plat for specific cards on a day to day basis. Its far more likely that someone is running a bot to snipe mistakes like listings at plat price in gold there we have some value to be gained. That said if they say there are no bots i take them by their word and trust that there are no bots and that any that crop up are dealt with swiftly and painfully.

Timlagor
08-20-2015, 07:48 PM
We monitor auction house utilization on a frequent basis. It may seem at times a bot is in there, but people (just like you) also sit and wait for various ways of playing the auction house.

I really really really dislike that this has become a "game" in itself. It would be so very easy to use a system that actually gives us... auctions.

ossuary
08-20-2015, 07:56 PM
And if this were your game, or your opinion was the only player's opinion that mattered, that statement might be relevant. Sadly, there are tens of thousands of other players, all of whom have different opinions about what they do and do not want the auction house to do.

We've already been told by The Man with the (Business) Plan that he would like to implement a full-fledged Bid / Ask System at some point in the future. Until such time as an AH overhaul is feasible, what we have is what we're getting. Learn to live with it until then, or don't use it. :)

Zophie
08-20-2015, 08:01 PM
I really really really dislike that this has become a "game" in itself. It would be so very easy to use a system that actually gives us... auctions.

I really enjoyed the Auction House "game" in WoW and wouldn't mind being able to play the Hex market in similar ways, but not in the current state, not by a long shot. Give me some in-client tools like what the TradeSkillMaster addons in WoW provide and I would be thrilled. That's just my pipe dream though, I don't expect that to actually ever happen


We've already been told by The Man with the (Business) Plan that he would like to implement a full-fledged Bid / Ask System at some point in the future.

I very much look forward to this and all other QoL upgrades to the AH in the future :D

Vorpal
08-21-2015, 09:05 AM
I don't think I agree.
PVE is huge and potentially endless.
Getting the AH to at least decently functional is probably comparatively small and would have a very positive effect. I understand the view that PVE is more important but when I stop to think about the AH it looks much worse than may be initially apparent.

Disagree. Anything involving the AH is a huge undertaking that requires the most extensive testing in the game. It involves the exchange of real money. You can't have bugs in the AH, at all, period. Getting us to an EVE like auction house would not be a comparatively small undertaking.

Also, it would not have a very positive effect. It would have a negligible effect on bringing new people into the game. PVE would have a massive impact at bringing new people into the game. Friends of mine are waiting to play until the dungeons come in.

Not one of them has said "I will start playing as soon as the AH has a bid/ask system!"

Vorpal
08-21-2015, 09:12 AM
I really really really dislike that this has become a "game" in itself. It would be so very easy to use a system that actually gives us... auctions.

Well you can kind of do that now.

If I see a very low bid and people keep bidding me up by 1 plat, I just put in a huge bid increase to take it to near market value. Usually they stop because they were just interested in scoring a really good deal. And I get the item for a small discount. Cool. Or I don't get the item, but instead of losing out on a really good deal, I just lose out on a small one.

gonzo007
08-24-2015, 05:45 AM
There is bots on AH, its a FACT. I waited on one lot for hm 5-6 hours, and you know what? after time changed to "less then 12 hours" at exact half hour jumps someone came, made bid and gone away for next 30 minutes without any activity (how i found this is bot? he not made any attempts to outbid me after i outbid him). Then boom (just few minutes ago) right before few seconds when lot ended, he came and outbid me, without a single chance for me to win back, when i clicked bid after getting outbid message - lot was already closed.
Do something!

Gorgol
08-24-2015, 06:04 AM
There is bots on AH, its a FACT. I waited on one lot for hm 5-6 hours, and you know what? after time changed to "less then 12 hours" at exact half hour jumps someone came, made bid and gone away for next 30 minutes without any activity (how i found this is bot? he not made any attempts to outbid me after i outbid him). Then boom (just few minutes ago) right before few seconds when lot ended, he came and outbid me, without a single chance for me to win back, when i clicked bid after getting outbid message - lot was already closed.
Do something!
Well, with this knowledge, how much did they bid you up by? If you knew precisely when it would end, just outbid yourself by a few such that if they bid in between you'd outdo their bid. If it is a bot, they likely have a set amount to outbid by.

gonzo007
08-24-2015, 06:08 AM
Well, with this knowledge, how much did they bid you up by? If you knew precisely when it would end, just outbid yourself by a few such that if they bid in between you'd outdo their bid. If it is a bot, they likely have a set amount to outbid by.
i am not a robot, i didn't knew precisely when it would end to the last second. (even with mail time it will be not 100% accurate, and even if its 99% accurate its still hard for human to click at EXACT right time)

Erukk
08-24-2015, 06:40 AM
Or, you know, that auction was simply sniped by someone scoping the AH and whatever auctions where ending soon. As said before, just because it got sniped with only seconds remaining, that doesn't automatically make it a bot. There are people that sit on the AH for hours at a time looking for good deals that became quite skillful at reading the "time remaining" of auctions and sniping them out from under people.

israel.kendall
08-24-2015, 06:43 AM
There is bots on AH, its a FACT. I waited on one lot for hm 5-6 hours, and you know what? after time changed to "less then 12 hours" at exact half hour jumps someone came, made bid and gone away for next 30 minutes without any activity (how i found this is bot? he not made any attempts to outbid me after i outbid him). Then boom (just few minutes ago) right before few seconds when lot ended, he came and outbid me, without a single chance for me to win back, when i clicked bid after getting outbid message - lot was already closed.
Do something!

This is because it is a waste of time and plat to have a bidding war until the very end. The first bid was likely to "tag" it to try to snipe later on. Tagging cards to bid on will create a personal snipe list of sorts. So it sounds like human activity to me, and maybe lucky timing. But I'm no expert, it's just my uneducated opinion really.

gonzo007
08-24-2015, 06:51 AM
@Erukk
another guy who can't read, sorry.
i sat there without going away from pc for 6+ hours, clicking refresh every minute or so (sometimes more then once per minute) watching movie and not taking my eyes from lot. every 30 minutes (1800sec if you prefer) there was made +1plat bid. 6+ hours.. its FAR FAR away from ending soon. Then at that precise time window was made last bid, i even without reading clicked BID asap as i seen red mail icon\my plat returned = And that lot was already ended. With "someone" outbidding me (seriously i write this same thing like for 3rd time now ?)
Now my question: do you really ****** believe that some human came and just made bid on last second just by finding "oh there one ending soon" right on final seconds? and by final seconds its not even 5-10 seconds, its 2-3 at max. And that "absolutely" random guy who made bid only from sorting by Time left, made bid at same time window as all that single bids during this 6+ hours? Really??? Sorry to sad you, but Santa not EXISTs

ps. to everyone who "waste of time.. sitting for so long.." its become waste only because of last second bid.. and i have no job right at this time.. so i can sit there for days \= as i have nothing else to do

israel.kendall
08-24-2015, 07:30 AM
Well you can kind of do that now.

If I see a very low bid and people keep bidding me up by 1 plat, I just put in a huge bid increase to take it to near market value. Usually they stop because they were just interested in scoring a really good deal. And I get the item for a small discount. Cool. Or I don't get the item, but instead of losing out on a really good deal, I just lose out on a small one.

This is the same way I do my bidding, and I feel it wins me my fair share of auctions. Some people are resistant to putting in real bids though and wonder why they got sniped on a 500p master moss or something. A listing like that will attract a lot of snipers, so its a good idea to bid it up to a more decent price to actually win it. Helps the seller too, as they get a better price for their item.

Erukk
08-24-2015, 08:02 AM
@Erukk
another guy who can't read, sorry.


There couldn't possibly be other people sitting at there computer for 6+ hours at a time looking and browsing the AH, much like you, and monitoring their bids, possibly putting in a +1p bid on things that got outbid on every so often, and/or scoping out possible snipes? If you were able to constantly monitor a selection of bid for a set amount of hours, that means its entirely in the realm of possibility for others to do it as well and more so.

And again, bid sniping is a thing. I've done it a few times, and it was done on things I was bidding on more than a handful of times. It doesn't take a bot to do it. All you need is ALOT of time on your hands, some knowledge and skill on how to read the time remaining auctions and comparing the refreshes, and a good deal of luck. Because you should never underestimate the things people will do when it comes to getting a good deal on things.

magic_gazz
08-24-2015, 08:04 AM
Someone out bid me = must be bots

lol

There isn't really much else to say. People like this will not listen to logic.

Warrender
08-24-2015, 08:13 AM
http://i.imgur.com/2NzOT7J.jpg

Vorpal
08-24-2015, 09:16 AM
There is bots on AH, its a FACT. I waited on one lot for hm 5-6 hours, and you know what? after time changed to "less then 12 hours" at exact half hour jumps someone came, made bid and gone away for next 30 minutes without any activity (how i found this is bot? he not made any attempts to outbid me after i outbid him). Then boom (just few minutes ago) right before few seconds when lot ended, he came and outbid me, without a single chance for me to win back, when i clicked bid after getting outbid message - lot was already closed.
Do something!

I don't understand how this happens to people.

Just raise your bid yourself in the last couple seconds, even if you are already the high bidder.

Don't wait to be told you have been outbid. Assume someone is going to snipe you and counter snipe them proactively.

ossuary
08-24-2015, 01:04 PM
http://i.imgur.com/2NzOT7J.jpg

Zophie, you've changed! ;)

Phenteo
08-24-2015, 02:24 PM
Zophie, you've changed! ;)

It wasn't a gif. And this thread has run its course.

We monitor game activity and would take actions if we notice anything suspiciously.

As many users have already stated, if you're being outbid, it's not because of bots but because other players (like you) are in the auction house and trying to get good deals on cards as well. If you're very worried about getting certain cards, use the buy now button.