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View Full Version : how RMT of plat/gold is harmful to Hex



plaguedealer
08-12-2015, 06:12 PM
There has been a little bit of a issue regarding RMT regarding the currency of Hex. Some believe it is ok, I am kind of surprised regarding this stance. In my opinion, selling/buying gold or plat should result in either 1. ban 2. removal of the currency with a temporary ban. I guess this is controversial, but this type of sanction is common when dealing with F2P currency (gold in Hex).

I believe people should be able to cash out by selling cards only.

RMT does two major things (1) it encourages people to attempt to bot the arena (2) devalues gold/plat.

Hex is different then MTGO since we also use a F2P currency that can be converted to plat. The ability for people to buy gold greatly hurts the value of gold. People with alot of time on their hands can horde alot of gold and sell it. Plat is also devalued by RMT since a grey market is selling it because (1) not everyone is using the market (2) they can convert gold to plat (3) the people selling it could be using nefarious means of obtaining it.

Not sure how long I can stay up tonight to discuss. However, I just want to bring this up because it seems surprising that alot of people are saying these types of RMT is ok. Please remember I am only talking about currency selling not card selling.

asdf2000
08-12-2015, 06:17 PM
Botting itself is harmful because it devalues gold, I agree with that.

But I don't see how RMTing devalues anything as long as it was created legitimately.

Falaris
08-12-2015, 06:29 PM
Botting itself is harmful because it devalues gold, I agree with that.

But I don't see how RMTing devalues anything as long as it was created legitimately.

Pretty much this. Botting is the problem here, not RMT.

Altima
08-12-2015, 06:41 PM
I'm more surprise how can this bother anyone except Cryptozoic.

They just need more way to sink platinum in this game. At this moment there are too much platinum in the market because you can buy everything cheaper than in-game shop from other players with platinum.

asdf2000
08-12-2015, 06:44 PM
I'm more surprise how can this bother anyone except Cryptozoic.

They just need more way to sink platinum in this game. At this moment there are too much platinum in the market because you can buy everything cheaper than in-game shop from other players with platinum.

That's mostly because of kickstarter rewards though.

plaguedealer
08-12-2015, 06:50 PM
Is rmt hurting hex now, probably not. The future might be a different story. It just is kind of surprising that alot of people think it is ok. There is anger that g2a was selling plat at a 30% discount, but no anger that someone is selling it at a much larger discount.

Xenavire
08-12-2015, 07:00 PM
Is rmt hurting hex now, probably not. The future might be a different story. It just is kind of surprising that alot of people think it is ok. There is anger that g2a was selling plat at a 30% discount, but no anger that someone is selling it at a much larger discount.

There is no anger because that plat is being generated at roughly 1USD per 100 plat by someone. (I am not going to go do a lot of math about the true value right now, but lets assume this is true, more or less.)

It doesn't matter how many hands it passes through, or at what value it is traded at later, it started as $1-100 plat. It doesn't matter how low others sell it for, because even if there is such a massive surplus that it sells cheap, people will buy it cheap and then use it to buy packs etc until the surplus is more or less gone. It will self equalise, because there is a limited supply worth less than 1-100.

Falaris
08-12-2015, 07:05 PM
Is rmt hurting hex now, probably not. The future might be a different story. It just is kind of surprising that alot of people think it is ok. There is anger that g2a was selling plat at a 30% discount, but no anger that someone is selling it at a much larger discount.

Xenavire beat me to it. Gift cards and other things that provide a discount to buying plat are actually harmful because that is plat that is being GENERATED cheaply to put in the game. The plat that players would sell has already been paid for. Along those lines, while botting gold can lead to deflation, its the botting itself that is the issue. Farming gold has been an intent of arena all along, as a free method for players to gain cards/plat

plaguedealer
08-12-2015, 07:30 PM
Farming gold and converting it to plat in order to sell is not a good thing for the economy.

So you guys are telling me anyone is a fool to grind the arena when you can buy gold for cents on the dollar? So the lesson to be learned today by people with disposable income is that it is ok with the community to buy gold. I believe that is fundamentally wrong and will hurt the game over the long term. However, I have alot of chest I need to roll.

zadies
08-12-2015, 07:35 PM
My issue with directly selling plat in rmt is that encourages people to scam for large amounts of plat.... such as the people attempting to sell ks codes they don't have for plat in trade... if you can easily get the plat to convert to cash it becomes much more desirable to scam people like that.

Xenavire
08-12-2015, 08:08 PM
Farming gold and converting it to plat in order to sell is not a good thing for the economy.

So you guys are telling me anyone is a fool to grind the arena when you can buy gold for cents on the dollar? So the lesson to be learned today by people with disposable income is that it is ok with the community to buy gold. I believe that is fundamentally wrong and will hurt the game over the long term. However, I have alot of chest I need to roll.

The only 'conversion' happening is player A buying platinum and giving it to player B in exchange for gold. There is no magical way to turn gold into platinum inside the client - the only conversion method is player to player interactions where every bit of platinum has been bought by someone at some time.

plaguedealer
08-12-2015, 08:22 PM
I know that xen, you can convert gold to plat in game. I am not saying that there is a magical method to make more plat from rmt (absent botting). It does hurt the value of gold because I bet alot of people or selling cheap plat because they converted gold to plat.

The bottom line is that you are saying it is ok for people to buy gold in rmt. That is your argument. I would be crazy to farm arena when I can simply buy gold from a third party site. I am not sure that is what the community wants to endorse.

Xenavire
08-12-2015, 08:29 PM
I know that xen, you can convert gold to plat in game. I am not saying that there is a magical method to make more plat from rmt. It does hurt the value of gold because I bet alot of people or selling cheap plat because they converted gold to plat.

The bottom line is that you are saying it is ok for people to buy gold in rmt. That is your argument. I would be crazy to farm arena when I can simply buy gold from a third party site. I am not sure that is what the community wants to endorse.

Of course we don't want to endorse gold farming and selling through third party sites (similar to Chinese gold farmers.) But right now, that isn't an issue, because there are not enough faucets to supply the community with enough gold right now. And the amount of gold has absolutely zero impact on the value of plat, so as long as Hex can stop botting and any other illicit farming techniques, we should be just fine.

plaguedealer
08-12-2015, 08:35 PM
The amount of gold does have a indirect impact on plat because you can convert it. The fact that there is not enough faucets helps the gold farmers. You could make an argument that the high value of gold could hide any problem with gold selling.

Regardless, if gold farming could be a problem in the future why argue at all that rmt is ok.

Xenavire
08-12-2015, 08:44 PM
Even if the value of gold changes, the value of plat is pretty much static. Gold could be 10:1 ratio to plat, or 1000:1, and it still wouldn't change the value of plat.

plaguedealer
08-12-2015, 08:46 PM
I dont want gold to be 1000:1.

Falaris
08-12-2015, 08:52 PM
You're arguing about the value of gold/plat. Gold/plat is worth zero if there is no way to cash out... On top of that, as stated previously, we were promised from the very outset of the kickstarter that our collection would have value.

Fyren
08-12-2015, 08:58 PM
I might even be inclined to argue that gold selling isn't a problem. At least...

Okay. So the argument as I understand it: if gold is saleable, more people will be encouraged to farm it, which leads to inflation, which makes startup harder for new players, which hurts the game, right? That's a fair representation, not a strawman?

Falaris
08-12-2015, 09:08 PM
The only time that situation can become problematic is if there are bots. We're not even close to that point yet. The problem is bots, not selling gold. Someone 'farming gold' for enough to make any type of profit is going to be playing arena 16 hours a day. If you're 'working' 16 hours a day at the arena you'd be better of working fast food, the return on investment is horrible. I get about 10k gold per run (including DC bonus) for a 30-40 minute run. 20k gold per hour (best case scenario) is not gamebreaking. I also have access to every piece of equipment and every card in the game.

What hasnt even been mentioned is that 'good luck creating a bot that can easily play a collectible card game'. We are facing world-class developers whose sole purpose is developing AI to play vs us. While its obvious to us that the AI makes some terrible decisions, good luck creating a bot to do better. IN ADDITION, even if you can create a bot that is as 'smart' as arena AI, you'll be facing a deck that has superior cards/abilities to you.

DreamPuppet
08-12-2015, 10:39 PM
You're arguing about the value of gold/plat. Gold/plat is worth zero if there is no way to cash out... On top of that, as stated previously, we were promised from the very outset of the kickstarter that our collection would have value.

Well said.

WWKnight
08-12-2015, 10:49 PM
if there are any bots running through arena farming gold, rather than ban them, can we recruit them for the AI?

Falaris
08-12-2015, 10:54 PM
if there are any bots running through arena farming gold, rather than ban them, can we recruit them for the AI?

lol.

realistically, there's the stigma of bots gold farming in wow, and that's just not a parallel here. in wow, you can set up a bot to do a repetitive task with no interaction. someone with the capability of creating a bot in this game for the purpose of gold farming more than likely makes enough money IRL that they don't have to scam the Hex Arena for 10k gold an hour.

janome
08-13-2015, 02:47 AM
The only time that situation can become problematic is if there are bots. We're not even close to that point yet. The problem is bots, not selling gold. Someone 'farming gold' for enough to make any type of profit is going to be playing arena 16 hours a day. If you're 'working' 16 hours a day at the arena you'd be better of working fast food, the return on investment is horrible. I get about 10k gold per run (including DC bonus) for a 30-40 minute run. 20k gold per hour (best case scenario) is not gamebreaking. I also have access to every piece of equipment and every card in the game.

What hasnt even been mentioned is that 'good luck creating a bot that can easily play a collectible card game'. We are facing world-class developers whose sole purpose is developing AI to play vs us. While its obvious to us that the AI makes some terrible decisions, good luck creating a bot to do better. IN ADDITION, even if you can create a bot that is as 'smart' as arena AI, you'll be facing a deck that has superior cards/abilities to you.


on rmt of currency versus g2a gameforge codes: the difference here is that plat is being introduced into the economy at a discounted rate, where previously it was being generated at a higher rate. lets assume rmt of currency occurs at a percentage of the base rate, like 50% of the normal rate. at a base rate of 100, people would rmt for 200 plat for a dollar. at a base rate of 70c/100plat, people would rmt for less, around 250 plat per dollar.


on rmt of currency: i don't understand how this is different than selling cards. if someone is interested in value in hex, they will buy whatever provides the most value, whether it be packs or cards or plat or gold. nothing is added or removed from the economy. if anything, it increases the health of the economy by adding more confidence to people's collections having value.

on botting: a hex bot would be rather simple to create. making an account is easy, fast and free. a botter could set up virtualization to run lots of hex instances running a simple bot that casted creatures, burn spells, and hit attack with all then passed the turn. the in game AI being better doesn't matter because the botters don't need perfection, they just need to make a few thousand gold per hour per bot, and they can scale it up to 10 bots running per machine 24hrs a day with dozens of machines. hex f2p pays pretty well for botters. they could earn 5$ per hour per machine easily once they have a program to spin up accounts, automated virtualization and rotating vpns.

wolzarg
08-13-2015, 03:07 AM
This whole topic confuses me did i miss an announcement from HXE saying we can now sell gold and/or plat for real money because i was fairly sure their stance was the exact opposite of that?

Phenteo
08-13-2015, 03:08 AM
This whole topic confuses me did i miss an announcement from HXE saying we can now sell gold and/or plat for real money because i was fairly sure their stance was the exact opposite of that?

Selling currency is against the ToS.

Stok3d
08-13-2015, 06:07 AM
lol.

realistically, there's the stigma of bots gold farming in wow, and that's just not a parallel here. in wow, you can set up a bot to do a repetitive task with no interaction. someone with the capability of creating a bot in this game for the purpose of gold farming more than likely makes enough money IRL that they don't have to scam the Hex Arena for 10k gold an hour.

There is defiantly a draw to bot here... $5 / hr 1000x accounts 24hrs a day is alluring. HS bots do a phenomenal job... ppl are very capable of creating one.

zadies
08-13-2015, 07:09 AM
The issue with rmt transactions for currency is that it changes the value of the currency pushing up the prices. Sites that sell cards are selling cards based on the average price of the card thus don't actually effect the value of the items in the game. Selling currency at 50% value allows someone to more easily to corner the market of a card and double it's price(they did just buy it for 50% of what it's worth after all). This is much more easily done with rare items were there are less then ten of them on the ah to begin with.

Lets say for example that someone bought $150 bucks in plat at 50% so 30k plat from an outside source right at the end of convocation. They could have in theory bought out all the 4k storm coats(given there were 6 or 7 listed at the time) and re-posted them for 6-8k. Not saying that this happened but it would be very easy for someone to cause inflation of super chase items and basically end up with plat at 30% the cost allowing them to corner even more items and chain this.

darkwonders
08-13-2015, 07:19 AM
There is defiantly a draw to bot here... $5 / hr 1000x accounts 24hrs a day is alluring. HS bots do a phenomenal job... ppl are very capable of creating one.

Except with HS nothing can be exchanged between accounts. Blizzard bans bots every few months, so unless entire accounts are being sold before the ban, botting on HS is a losing battle.

Vorpal
08-13-2015, 07:31 AM
I'm more surprise how can this bother anyone except Cryptozoic.

They just need more way to sink platinum in this game. At this moment there are too much platinum in the market because you can buy everything cheaper than in-game shop from other players with platinum.

That is because anything you buy from the shop has a primal chance, and anything you buy from other players does not. It's not a problem.

Svenn
08-13-2015, 07:47 AM
You're arguing about the value of gold/plat. Gold/plat is worth zero if there is no way to cash out... On top of that, as stated previously, we were promised from the very outset of the kickstarter that our collection would have value.
Yes, we were promised that our collection would have value. That's why we can sell cards/boosters. Platinum/gold isn't part of your collection, it's a game currency.

noragar
08-13-2015, 07:56 AM
Lets say for example that someone bought $150 bucks in plat at 50% so 30k plat from an outside source right at the end of convocation. They could have in theory bought out all the 4k storm coats(given there were 6 or 7 listed at the time) and re-posted them for 6-8k.

Lets say for example that someone bought $300 bucks in plat at 100% so 30k plat from HEX right at the end of convocation. They could have in theory bought out all the 4k storm coats(given there were 6 or 7 listed at the time) and re-posted them for 6-8k.

I don't see how the percentage rate of buying platinum affects the ability to corner the market. If someone's rich enough to corner the market, they're going to be able do so whether they get their platinum at 50% or 100%. It's just easier to make a profit at 50% but that's the case whether you're cornering the market, buying cards to make a constructed deck, investing in AAs, entering drafts, or whatever else you're deciding to do with your platinum.

I'm also not convinced that someone trying to corner the market is a bad thing. Let them try. If it works out and they're able to turn a profit, good for them. Free enterprise and all. There will be at least as many failed attempts where someone tries to corner the market and fails big time and winds up losing a bunch.

plaguedealer
08-13-2015, 08:16 AM
Lets say for example that someone bought $300 bucks in plat at 100% so 30k plat from HEX right at the end of convocation. They could have in theory bought out all the 4k storm coats(given there were 6 or 7 listed at the time) and re-posted them for 6-8k.

I don't see how the percentage rate of buying platinum affects the ability to corner the market. If someone's rich enough to corner the market, their going to be able do so whether they get their platinum at 50% or 100%. It's just easier to make a profit at 50% but that's the case whether you're cornering the market, buying cards to make a constructed deck, investing in AAs, entering drafts, or whatever else you're deciding to do with your platinum.

I'm also not convinced that someone trying to corner the market is a bad thing. Let them try. If it works out and they're able to turn a profit, good for them. Free enterprise and all. There will be at least as many failed attempts where someone tries to corner the market and fails big time and winds up losing a bunch.

Corning the market is easier to do and with less risk if you can buy plat at a 50% discount. Especially if only a small portion of the community is buying plat at a 50% discount.

zadies
08-13-2015, 08:31 AM
Also buying at the 50% discount and forcing prices up on key chase rares actually forces others to look at doing so as well. The effect of this is that it can also cause ripple effects as the companies selling the plat increase the cost of the cards to increase the desire to look at alternate means of obtaining plat.

If only 10% of the population of the game is buying plat at the reduced rate and forces the increased prices along to the entire economy by controlling the prices of the chase cards.

It has nothing to do with what is possible or not buying everything at the regular rate and forcing prices up, buying plat at 50% means that even if the price of the card goes down by 40% on the card you try to corner you are realistically not losing anything in the process of your gamble.

noragar
08-13-2015, 08:46 AM
I agree on the possible effects of plat being sold out of game at 50%. My point was only that using that plat to try to corner the market isn't really any better or worse than using that plat for any other purpose in game.

zadies
08-13-2015, 08:51 AM
Actually noragar it is... becuase it is forcing everyone else to pay for things at inflated prices... buying things and treating the plat as if it has the regular value is one thing. Buying cards and not inflicting inflated prices on others. If you buy out all of an item at regular price and then repost it for double the price you are forcing everyone else to treat plat as if it has half the value it currently has. If you are satisfied after you have your playset while that is pulling a few cards off the market it doesn't have the same ripple effect. Eventually you'll be able to corner non-chase items simply due to your multiplying war chest.

This isn't the same as speculating that an item may increase in value this is taking the value you paid for plat and inflicting it on others through the use of a chase item that would have likely increased in value anyway thus taking advantage of people's perceptions.

Falaris
08-13-2015, 09:18 AM
Yes, we were promised that our collection would have value. That's why we can sell cards/boosters. Platinum/gold isn't part of your collection, it's a game currency.

Plat/Gold is definitely part of my account. Regardless, that's not the point I'm arguing. I'm arguing against the people saying that any transaction of any type should not be allowed.

Falaris
08-13-2015, 09:26 AM
Something people are failing to realize is once the game takes off and we start getting sets that aren't inundated with extra kickstarter rewards (the packs from set 1 and set 2 deflated things a ton) is the price of plat/cards/whatever being sold will shoot up. People (theoretically i know, since it is currently illegal) selling plat won't continue selling plat for absurd discounts. The price will normalize to something probably around 80% of retail.

The reason for me saying this? Look at MTGO. There are THOUSANDS more players selling things IRL. THOUSANDS of chances to undercut. Although I haven't checked ticket resale prices recently, they consistently hovered at .93-.95 on the dollar.

malloc31
08-13-2015, 09:43 AM
Something people are failing to realize is once the game takes off and we start getting sets that aren't inundated with extra kickstarter rewards (the packs from set 1 and set 2 deflated things a ton) is the price of plat/cards/whatever being sold will shoot up. People (theoretically i know, since it is currently illegal) selling plat won't continue selling plat for absurd discounts. The price will normalize to something probably around 80% of retail.

The reason for me saying this? Look at MTGO. There are THOUSANDS more players selling things IRL. THOUSANDS of chances to undercut. Although I haven't checked ticket resale prices recently, they consistently hovered at .93-.95 on the dollar.

you are right. There will always be more competition and have prices closer to 1 to 1 when buying/selling the currency is legal. Plat is cheaper now because people have to risk getting banned to buy it, it decreases demand a lot.

People talk a lot about the value of collections, but as long as selling plat is illegal, collections have no real value. If it can not be sold for a real currency it has no value. Can you imagine if you went to a casino bought chips played all night then when you wanted to go home they said "you are not allowed to cash them out you just get to bring the chips home"?

At some point this will have to be addressed.

zadies
08-13-2015, 10:16 AM
I'm sorry plat isn't part of your collection it is something you buy from cze to trade for your collection either by trading it into cze or trading it to other players.

malloc31
08-13-2015, 10:23 AM
The way it is now. To profit from your collection you have to set up your own website selling your cards for cash (which is legal at this point). It really is very anti-casual player if this is true.

superdax
08-13-2015, 11:13 AM
you are right. There will always be more competition and have prices closer to 1 to 1 when buying/selling the currency is legal. Plat is cheaper now because people have to risk getting banned to buy it, it decreases demand a lot.

People talk a lot about the value of collections, but as long as selling plat is illegal, collections have no real value. If it can not be sold for a real currency it has no value. Can you imagine if you went to a casino bought chips played all night then when you wanted to go home they said "you are not allowed to cash them out you just get to bring the chips home"?

At some point this will have to be addressed.



At one point MTGO had the same problem with tickets. It was going around .70 to .80 of its value and there was a market for it. BUT to fix this problem MTGO created ticket sinks. They added the ticket only prerelease - ticket only PTK - Ticket only 1vs1.... All this created a demand for the ticket and price went up pretty fast since everyone was using ticket.

Now i don't know all the discounts that exist (In canada there is no choice for gift cards to pay with and our money if the worst of them all) but as long as Hex does not create those kind of events there will be too much plat floating around.

They had a chance to start to create a plat sink with VIP but they decided to go the other way with direct payment (it has its good and its bad. Short term good since it gave them cashflow bad in the long run since there is till a lot of plat in the system)

I am sure that they are aware and will create what is necessary to ajust eventually (look when they created all the gold sink. I am sure they can do the same with plat)

wolzarg
08-13-2015, 11:39 AM
I'm super confused as to why cornering the market is better with illicit plat. Besides the point that your risk is less as the investment is less.

You buy 100 monkey coins for 5$
you flip 100 x 1 monkey coin cards you now dominate the market and sell them for 2 monkey coins.
you now have 200 monkey coins you doubled your investment you made 5$

You buy 100 monkey coins at true price for 10$
you flip 100 x 1 monkey coin cards you now dominate the market and sell them for 2 monkey coins.
you now have 200 monkey coins you doubled your investment you made 10$

The end result is exactly the same only the initial investment changes which is a minor change if you risk a ban for it. For claritys sake I'm not saying you would risk a ban for buying the illicit currency i honestly don't know that for sure but i just don't see besides the investment being lower how cornering markets this way is better.

EDIT
it was pointed out to me that you could technically sell your 100 extra monkey coins in both examples and that way you would end up benefitting more in the first example but then you are definitely looking at the possibility of a ban so that just seems silly.

Kramer
08-13-2015, 12:06 PM
Here is my issues with RMT:

1. Selling plat instantly devalues everyones collection. If I buy a Vampire King for 2,000 plat or $20 but someone is selling plat at a 50% discount then the second I buy the card I have already lost half its value. That is why it is not wise to sell plat for real money since it hurts everyones collections, aside from the fact it will instantly lead to a permanent ban on your account assuming you get caught.

2. Why would you want to buy plat out of game and not support HexEnt and CZE. If everyone buys out of game, the company makes no money, cannot afford to pay the devs and the game no longer exists.

On a side note, as I am not a programmer and have no idea how to create a bot, botting is also against the ToS and will lead to getting banned so do not do that either.

I do agree with the OP that selling cards/packs should be allowed as this is one way one would cash out if one wants/needs too. Personally I enjoy the game imensely and see no need to cash out. I prefer to trade or sell on AH valuable stuff for things I need as I am a completionist and want a playset of everything.

I really do not understand the need for this thread unless it is a stern warning to all since this is all about ways to get your account permanently banned.

malloc31
08-13-2015, 12:14 PM
Here is my issues with RMT:

1. Selling plat instantly devalues everyones collection. If a buy a Vampire King for 2,000 plat or $20 but someone is selling plat at a 50% discount then the second I buy the card I have already lost half its value. That is why it is not wise to sell plat for real money since it hurts everyones collections, aside from the fact it will instantly lead to a permanent ban on your account assuming you get caught.

2. Why would you want to buy plat out of game and not support HexEnt and CZE. If everyone buys out of game, the company makes no money, cannot afford to pay the devs and the game no longer exists.

On a side note, as I am not a programmer and have no idea how to create a bot, botting is also against the ToS and will lead to getting banned so do not do that either.

I do agree that selling cards/packs should be allowed as this is one way one would cash out if one want to. Personally I enjoy the game imensely and see no need to cash out. I prefer to trade or sell on AH valuable stuff for things I need as I am a completionist and want a playset of everything.

I really do not understand the need for this thread unless it is a stern warning to all since this is all about ways to get your account permanently banned.

1) yes I agree
2) yes I agree

"Personally I enjoy the game immensely and see no need to cash out." - wonderful but what if next year you want to do something else, or what if some one wants to play a lot of drafts win a lot sell stuff for plat, since its easier then finding buyers for individual cards in cash, and later actually get some money from it?

either they need to buy plat them selves (which is hard legally) or allow others to have a market for it so plat can be cashed out because even if you don't want to eventually people will want to.

Tazelbain
08-13-2015, 12:28 PM
either they need to buy plat them selves (which is hard legally).This is what I want so value of my collection is closer real money. Blizzard was doing it so it can't be impossible.

Yoss
08-13-2015, 12:52 PM
Note: For all theoretical discussion from me, I treat direct plat to $US as equivalent with plat to item to $US. Indirect sale is more cumbersome, which will change the exchange rates, but the same general trends and principles will remain.


1. Selling plat instantly devalues everyones collection. If I buy a Vampire King for 2,000 plat or $20 but someone is selling plat at a 50% discount then the second I buy the card I have already lost half its value. That is why it is not wise to sell plat for real money since it hurts everyones collections, aside from the fact it will instantly lead to a permanent ban on your account assuming you get caught.
Not quite right. It is not the selling of the plat that devalues the collection. The surest way to devalue the collection is to restrict RMT. In the extreme case (no RMT possible), our collections have zero value. At the other extreme (RMT fully allowed with no restrictions or taxes), our collections are free to realize their full market-based values. There is a nearly infinitely divisible continuum between the two extremes, and that's what we're seeing right now. With current policies as they are, we see a devaluing of about 50% for the average user who might want to cash out.


2. Why would you want to buy plat out of game and not support HexEnt and CZE. If everyone buys out of game, the company makes no money, cannot afford to pay the devs and the game no longer exists.
This is wrong on multiple levels. Let's start with the most obvious. Not everyone can buy out of game, at least not for long. All plat originates with HXE, without exception. If everyone were to buy all the discounted 3rd part plat, there would be no source left except to return to HXE at retail price. This is exactly as it should be.

I'm not even going to get into why "be a nice guy, pay more than something's worth to support the cause" is not a good stance for Hex in the long term over a large user base.


On a side note, as I am not a programmer and have no idea how to create a bot, botting is also against the ToS and will lead to getting banned so do not do that either.
I hope HXE ends up being able to win the bot war. Bots ruin games.


I do agree with the OP that selling cards/packs should be allowed as this is one way one would cash out if one wants/needs too. Personally I enjoy the game imensely and see no need to cash out. I prefer to trade or sell on AH valuable stuff for things I need as I am a completionist and want a playset of everything.
What happens after a highly successful player has everything desired and still has plat left over? These are the kinds of players who want supplemental income due to playing the game well. Professional gamers, who provide the eSports that Cory is so passionate about.



Blizzard was doing it so it can't be impossible.

This.

plaguedealer
08-13-2015, 01:29 PM
Yoss your argument has no discussion on the ability of f2p people to farm gold, convert the gold to plat and sell the plat. That devalues gold in the long run, which is bad.

In addition, buying plat at a 50% discount absolutely devalues collections. Will there come a time when the seller can no longer do that, sure if there are no bots in the game. However, the ability to sell at a severe discount can be lengthened by converting gold to plat. Hex has a f2p currency, gold sellers should be stopped not given a reason to think what they are doing is ok.

zadies
08-13-2015, 02:01 PM
What happens after a highly successful player has everything desired and still has plat left over? These are the kinds of players who want supplemental income due to playing the game well. Professional gamers, who provide the eSports that Cory is so passionate about.



Buy packs with plat sell packs for cash on a 3rd party website. In fact this is likely better even now then selling plat at 50% because you buy packs at 180 at most and sell them for a buck.... Also most of those professional gamers are going to end up with packs that they need to sell for plat rather then plat directly anyway. you don't get your account banned and you and you end up with at least a 55%. Sorry Yoss there is 0 reason to allow the direct selling of plat/gold when it causes all sorts of issues with gambling rules due to being a currency rather then an item.

EntropyBall
08-13-2015, 04:06 PM
Buy packs with plat sell packs for cash on a 3rd party website. In fact this is likely better even now then selling plat at 50% because you buy packs at 180 at most and sell them for a buck.... Also most of those professional gamers are going to end up with packs that they need to sell for plat rather then plat directly anyway. you don't get your account banned and you and you end up with at least a 55%. Sorry Yoss there is 0 reason to allow the direct selling of plat/gold when it causes all sorts of issues with gambling rules due to being a currency rather then an item.

Why is this any better for you than just selling plat? The less flexible your currency is, the less you'll get of the more flexible currency. Packs < Plat < USD. Players selling gold/plat is not a gambling issue. Hex awarding USD for tournaments is.

Yoss
08-13-2015, 04:17 PM
Buy packs with plat sell packs for cash on a 3rd party website. In fact this is likely better even now then selling plat at 50% because you buy packs at 180 at most and sell them for a buck.... Also most of those professional gamers are going to end up with packs that they need to sell for plat rather then plat directly anyway. you don't get your account banned and you and you end up with at least a 55%. Sorry Yoss there is 0 reason to allow the direct selling of plat/gold when it causes all sorts of issues with gambling rules due to being a currency rather then an item.

Did you even read my post before responding? See this:

Note: For all theoretical discussion from me, I treat direct plat to $US as equivalent with plat to item to $US. Indirect sale is more cumbersome, which will change the exchange rates, but the same general trends and principles will remain.

I'd like direct cash out, but can live with proxy cash out. So, uh, I guess we agree?

Yoss
08-13-2015, 04:26 PM
Yoss your argument has no discussion on the ability of f2p people to farm gold, convert the gold to plat and sell the plat. That devalues gold in the long run, which is bad.

In addition, buying plat at a 50% discount absolutely devalues collections. Will there come a time when the seller can no longer do that, sure if there are no bots in the game. However, the ability to sell at a severe discount can be lengthened by converting gold to plat. Hex has a f2p currency, gold sellers should be stopped not given a reason to think what they are doing is ok.

Please explain the exact mechanism by which this devaluing happens. From where I sit, if you can't cash out, your value is zero. Can't devalue any farther than zero, and if you can cash out the value is guaranteed to be greater than zero. So it seems to me that it's your way (block cash out) that brings the worst destruction of value.

plaguedealer
08-13-2015, 05:11 PM
Please explain the exact mechanism by which this devaluing happens. From where I sit, if you can't cash out, your value is zero. Can't devalue any farther than zero, and if you can cash out the value is guaranteed to be greater than zero. So it seems to me that it's your way (block cash out) that brings the worst destruction of value.

The game is not mtgo and the game creators made a f2p currency that is very important to the game's success. Any game that has a online currency (especially one that can be obtained f2p) tries to protect it in some fashion because it can get devalued quick if you don't.

This game is somewhat unique because not only can you devalue gold by buying it from a third party, you can convert said gold to plat. Converting gold to plat devalues plat, there is no way around it (even if it is only for the short term). If there was only plat, I would agree with your argument, but that is not the case.

If Joe Smoe wants to farm arena 24/7 or have a team do it (or bot), they can obtain alot of gold. I don't want to farm gold 24/7, so I buy gold from him at a significant discount of what is being sold in the AH. Therefore, gold starts its spiral of being devalued. How far down it goes is dependent on many things.

If I buy plat at a discount from a third party, plat is devalued. I am now able to buy it away from the game client. How far down it goes it dependent on many things.

Blare731
08-13-2015, 05:20 PM
I don't know why people keep bringing up bots, the idea is that all bots will be banned. You can't use that as an argument when ideally there will be none. For example:

Gold is worth more now than it ever was, packs used to sell for 30k+ gold (with shards of fate selling for ~25k). Now most packs sell for 13-15k. That's insane. About doubled the value of gold. If people had bots capable of making tons of gold, we would never have seen an increase like that. So I think it's safe to assume that there are no good bots yet, and hopefully never will be.


The idea of selling your cards out of game for real money is ridiculous. What was the point of making an AH to trade cards for plat (which is a real money currency) to then have plat be worthless outside of the game. It is that sense of plat being worthless that allows people sell it for 50% of what its worth in game. 50% of something, is better than 100% of nothing. ( I think this is the point Yoss is trying to make as well)

If CZE continues to not allow people to cash out with their cash currency, they are encouraging people to sell that currency for whatever they can outside the game. Devaluing the currency for players in the game but netting a profit for the person who sells it.

If they allow the selling plat outside the game, as previously stated, the discounted currency for one would never drop that low. People wanting to cash out, could do so on a third party website, for let's say 80% of what they want to cash out for. Then the 3rd party could turn around sell it for 90%+, and everyone would be happy. CZE still gets 100% of the 1$ - 100 plat ratio so they never lose their profits. The only reason there ever is a surplus is when people stop feeling the need to use plat.

And now people can use the AH as intended, cashing out with the built in system. Win - Win. The problem is that the only plat sinks right now are tournaments, and not everyone enjoys spending their plat on it. From the way it looks, people would rather hold onto their plat for the card they want and give someone else 1500p then play 2 drafts and get nothing. Then the plat goes from hand to hand minimally taxed and the plat stays in circulation vs 100% going to the void and having to buy or earn more.

TLDR:
Gold doubled in the past couple months, no way bots exists or golds value would have stayed constant or inflated.

Plat is worth nothing outside of the game if you can't cash out. It's worth it for people to sell plat at a 50% rate if they really want to get out. At least they get some investment back.

If it was legal to cash out. The rate would be much higher closer to 90% as stated by others. If there are enough plat sinks, people will always have to buy plat for the original ratio 1$-100p so CZE wins.

Need more plat sinks, so that plat goes out of circulation into the void.


Edit: Personally I would rather a quick and easy, cash out to CZE for 80% of plat. But I think the proxy cash out would be alright if there were some reputable 3rd parties out there.

Yoss
08-13-2015, 05:48 PM
I think we may have a basic problem with definition of terms. When I say "value" (and "devalue", etc.) in this thread, I am talking about the $US market price for whatever thing we're talking about. If I mean something else, I will say things like "gold value relative to plat" or something of that sort. Perhaps that's what we need to do all the time, but I just assumed that a thread about RMT would imply that all "value" discussion is in the context of "value of X relative to $US".


The game is not mtgo and the game creators made a f2p currency that is very important to the game's success. Any game that has a online currency (especially one that can be obtained f2p) tries to protect it in some fashion because it can get devalued quick if you don't.
Agreed. Hex needs to make sure bots get smashed as soon as they appear, and they plan to do exactly that.


This game is somewhat unique because not only can you devalue gold by buying it from a third party,
Devalue gold relative to what? To plat? To $US? And why does it matter if you buy it 3rd party? The 3rd party can't create gold; only the game can do that. In order to get the gold, someone must earn it. If they earn it, they deserve to be allowed to sell it, assuming they earned it legally.


you can convert said gold to plat. Converting gold to plat devalues plat, there is no way around it (even if it is only for the short term).
Devalues plat relative to what? To gold? To $US? If gold is inflating, then plat is actually getting MORE value relative to gold, not less. If you're talking about $US, then you are making no sense. Why would gold/plat conversion have any effect whatsoever on the exchange rate of plat/$US?


If Joe Smoe wants to farm arena 24/7 or have a little team do it (or bot), they can obtain alot of gold. I don't want to farm gold 24/7, so I buy gold from him at a significant discount of what is being sold in the AH. Therefore, gold starts its spiral of being devalued. How far down it goes is dependent on many things.
I agree with this. Bots will cause gold inflation, and thus devalue gold relative to both Plat and $US. This is why HXE will have a strong anti-bot program and policy.


If I buy plat at a discount from a third party, plat is devalued. I am now able to buy it away from the game client. How far down it goes it dependent on many things.
Devalue plat relative to what? Gold? $US? If gold, I do not see the connection. If $US, you're back to what I've said over and over: if you can't trade for $US then talking about value relative to $US is pointless; it's zero.

plaguedealer
08-13-2015, 05:55 PM
Devalue gold relative to what? To plat? To $US? And why does it matter if you buy it 3rd party? The 3rd party can't create gold; only the game can do that. In order to get the gold, someone must earn it. If they earn it, they deserve to be allowed to sell it, assuming they earned it legally.


Devalues plat relative to what? To gold? To $US? If gold is inflating, then plat is actually getting MORE value relative to gold, not less. If you're talking about $US, then you are making no sense. Why would gold/plat conversion have any effect whatsoever on the exchange rate of plat/$US?

In both circumstance I am saying devalue relative to $. If I can convert gold to plat, plat is devalued relative to $. The game mechanic allows that to some extent, but it is limited on the amount of gold you have. If gold is inflating, gold is getting less value relative to plat because it takes more gold to buy plat. I do not want gold to inflate relative to $.

You can't trade plat for $ and plat is not worthless. You can convert plat to buy things like a AA mirror knight, which you can sell for $.

Yoss
08-13-2015, 05:58 PM
If I can convert gold to plat, plat is devalued relative to $.
Why? When you convert gold to plat, you are doing so through the secondary market. No new plat is created, it is simply moved from one player to another. If no new plat is created, its purchasing power did not change at all. If its purchasing power did not change, then it is not devalued.


If gold is inflating, gold is getting less value to plat because it takes more gold to buy plat.
Agreed with this.

plaguedealer
08-13-2015, 06:10 PM
Why? When you convert gold to plat, you are doing so through the secondary market. No new plat is created, it is simply moved from one player to another. If no new plat is created, its purchasing power did not change at all. If its purchasing power did not change, then it is not devalued.

New plat can be created when you convert gold to plat. Gold can be obtained by simply playing the game. I can buy dust with gold and resell it for plat.

Edit: This is wrong. New plat is not created when you buy dust and resell it for plat.

Gwaer
08-13-2015, 06:35 PM
Edit: This is wrong. New plat is not created when you buy dust and resell it for plat.

Not just that example, but there is no way to convert gold to plat. There is only a way to purchase plat from players for gold, at whatever rate they set. Plat should always have as close to a fixed purchasing power as possible 100p = 1USD. If you could turn a free currency into plat in any way through the company providing plat that could not remain true.


PVE provides things of value to people who have plat, and they will trade their plat for those things, be it gold or pve cards or stardust. There is no free way to get platinum from HXE, or to create more plat in the system with anything other than real world currency.

plaguedealer
08-13-2015, 07:12 PM
Not just that example, but there is no way to convert gold to plat. There is only a way to purchase plat from players for gold, at whatever rate they set. Plat should always have as close to a fixed purchasing power as possible 100p = 1USD. If you could turn a free currency into plat in any way through the company providing plat that could not remain true.


PVE provides things of value to people who have plat, and they will trade their plat for those things, be it gold or pve cards or stardust. There is no free way to get platinum from HXE, or to create more plat in the system with anything other than real world currency.

This is true, I am confusing myself I think. However, it does not change the fact that if I buy plat at a discount, the plat is devalued relative to $. If I buy gold, a currency I can generate by simply playing the game, then that can get devalued relatively quickly relative to $. The reason for the thread is mainly due to the effects rmt has on gold and not plat.

Edit: I still believe the conversion process can devalue plat over the short term. However, that is kind of like option trading in the stock market. Option trading is something I am not a expert on (and it is extremely confusing), so I will withdraw that argument and stick to the above.

Yoss
08-13-2015, 09:04 PM
This is true, I am confusing myself I think. However, it does not change the fact that if I buy plat at a discount, the plat is devalued relative to $. If I buy gold, a currency I can generate by simply playing the game, then that can get devalued relatively quickly relative to $. The reason for the thread is mainly due to the effects rmt has on gold and not plat.


Sounds like you are coming around. :)

If you buy at a discount, it is an indication that the plat is and was already devalued before you made the purchase, which is why the seller was willing to give you the discount. If anything, by you buying the 3rd party plat (and then spending it into HXE for tournaments and packs) you are helping to restore value to plat by sucking up the discounted excess supply. So in fact you're helping to raise the value, not decrease it. This is especially true if you're doing the plat purchase the semi-official way through buying goods like booster packs and then liquidating the packs through the AH because then HXE gets its 5% cut on the deal (and are thus more happy to let yo do it).

plaguedealer
08-13-2015, 09:28 PM
Sounds like you are coming around. :)

If you buy at a discount, it is an indication that the plat is and was already devalued before you made the purchase, which is why the seller was willing to give you the discount. If anything, by you buying the 3rd party plat (and then spending it into HXE for tournaments and packs) you are helping to restore value to plat by sucking up the discounted excess supply. So in fact you're helping to raise the value, not decrease it. This is especially true if you're doing the plat purchase the semi-official way through buying goods like booster packs and then liquidating the packs through the AH because then HXE gets its 5% cut on the deal (and are thus more happy to let yo do it).

Yoss you are right. However if there is no rmt (which there shouldnt be) I couldnt buy the plat to begin with from a third party. So with no RMT, the plat is not devalued, the cards are devalued. I honestly dont care about this part of the argument.

The main argument is about GOLD something you have failed to discuss above. The fact remains that rmt devalues gold, which is bad for hex.

Falaris
08-13-2015, 09:55 PM
You've made that claim probably 20 times, that RMT devalues gold. It doesn't. Botting gold then selling it devalues gold. Someone grinding hours on end for 10k gold an hour will not devalue gold by selling it.

All of this is a moot point anyway. HXE has already stated that selling plat/gold is bannable. Why are you even complaining?

Yoss
08-14-2015, 10:38 AM
If you are just trying to say that RMT will encourage botting, I agree. I still think the risk is worth it.

plaguedealer
08-14-2015, 11:00 AM
All of this is a moot point anyway. HXE has already stated that selling plat/gold is bannable. Why are you even complaining?

I am "complaining" because alot of people believe rmt is fine and worth it. You can look at many of the posts which say it is not harmful. The one above says the risk is worth it.

I believe it is harmful, if I sell gold at a discount it is devalued, it really is that simple. This escalates because one reason gold is so great relative to plat is because people dont necessarily want to farm arena alot. Once you take away the requirement of actually playing the game, gold loses value.

Almost every company that has a free to play currency takes steps to protect it from third party transactions. I have a feeling they do that for a reason.

Gwaer
08-14-2015, 11:04 AM
Actually a single person selling anything for cheap does not devalue that thing. For example, tom cruise just sold a car to a neighbor of mine for $5000 because he didn't want to drive it across country. That car is now not 'worth' $5000 it isn't devalued, the neighbor just got a good deal on it.

Should gold start dropping or demand decrease for gold, then its value will go down, but even if half of the people selling gold started selling it for cheaper and supply didn't increase, and demand didn't decrease, those people are just not making as much money as they could have the actual value of gold hasn't changed.

plaguedealer
08-14-2015, 11:07 AM
The actually value of gold goes down when you no longer need to play the game to acquire it (outside of conversion). If I am wrong, why do companies take steps to protect f2p currency? Is it simply because of botting, I dont think so.

Gwaer
08-14-2015, 11:10 AM
The actually value of gold goes down when you no longer need to play the game to acquire it (outside of conversion). If I am wrong, why do companies take steps to protect f2p currency? Is it simply because of botting, I dont think so.

Actually it's because of US law. There are a lot of legal reasons why f2p currencies shouldn't be able to be resold for actual value. Has nothing to do with protecting the currency. Though most of those games are also on a very different business model, where they are selling you portions of a game by giving you fake money. They don't want that money to have value, because if other people are selling it, they aren't making money. That is not the business model hex has.

malloc31
08-14-2015, 11:12 AM
The actually value of gold goes down when you no longer need to play the game to acquire it (outside of conversion). If I am wrong, why do companies take steps to protect f2p currency? Is it simply because of botting, I dont think so.

right now you do not need to play the game to get gold. You can buy plat from crypto and then buy gold with the plat from a player.

plaguedealer
08-14-2015, 11:15 AM
Actually it's because of US law. There are a lot of legal reasons why f2p currencies shouldn't be able to be resold for actual value. Has nothing to do with protecting the currency. Though most of those games are also on a very different business model, where they are selling you portions of a game by giving you fake money. They don't want that money to have value, because if other people are selling it, they aren't making money. That is not the business model hex has.

That is true, but companies ban people for the activity. In order to be liable there must be what people call a mens rea, which is an intentional act. It is not like patent law where if you do nothing you are in trouble.

I could give people buttons with my picture on it. If people start using that as currency and I am not involved, how am I in trouble?

malloc31
08-14-2015, 11:18 AM
Actually it's because of US law. There are a lot of legal reasons why f2p currencies shouldn't be able to be resold for actual value. Has nothing to do with protecting the currency. Though most of those games are also on a very different business model, where they are selling you portions of a game by giving you fake money. They don't want that money to have value, because if other people are selling it, they aren't making money. That is not the business model hex has.

very true. Hex is much closer to online poker where the plat is the chips, hex is not at all like a MMO where you are just buying services/buffs/time in the game with the plat. Hence why having no official way to cash out doesn't make much sense.

As for a secondary market devaluing gold. The reason that is true is because it is a black market, so a different conversion rate. If they just had an official way to do it it would just be 100 plat = $1, $1 = 100 plat. (or maybe they would take a fee when converting to cash) but it would not be like it is now.

And yes I know the problem is legal problems.

Gwaer
08-14-2015, 11:19 AM
That is true, but companies ban people for the activity. In order to be liable there must be what people call a mens rea, which is an intentional act. It is not like patent law where if you do nothing you are in trouble.

I'm sorry, but I believe we're out of the depth for this forum, and this discussion. To answer your question that was actually on topic. There are many many reasons why people ban rmt on their currencies that have nothing whatsoever to do with maintaining that currencies value, and in fact most of those currencies explicitly have no value.


As for a secondary market devaluing gold. The reason that is true is because it is a black market, so a different conversion rate. If they just had an official way to do it it would just be 100 plat = $1, $1 = 100 plat. (or maybe they would take a fee when converting to cash) but it would not be like it is now..



That has nothing to do with gold. This discussion is about gold being devalued. The legal problems are incredibly dense for plat having official cash out support. There is potentially nothing that can be done to make that legal, that isn't HXE's fault, that's our legislators.

plaguedealer
08-14-2015, 11:23 AM
Please provide a link to the law that discusses a companies liability when it comes to rmt. I would be interested in seeing it.

Gwaer
08-14-2015, 11:29 AM
There isn't a the law. there are tons of laws, every state has different ones, plus look at the situation with online poker with the ability to cash out in the united states.

plaguedealer
08-14-2015, 11:32 AM
That is gambling laws, we are talking about rmt laws regarding third parties. Like wow or another mmo that has a online currency and a third party is buying/selling gold. What liability does wow have for the third parties actions, I would be curious to know.

Taking away bots, if mmos sanction people beause of rmt, they are only doing it only for legal reasons? I am not sure that is true?

malloc31
08-14-2015, 11:39 AM
That has nothing to do with gold. This discussion is about gold being devalued. The legal problems are incredibly dense for plat having official cash out support. There is potentially nothing that can be done to make that legal, that isn't HXE's fault, that's our legislators.

I agree with almost every thing you are saying but this.

right now you can buy lets say 100 gold for one plat, but the person buying plat from crypto direct will pay more (dollars) per plat then the person buying plat on the black market (I do not endorse using it); this means they will spend less (dollars) per gold. if some people are getting gold cheaper this way the average value of gold will go down.

-edit

just to clarify this is only true when the transfer is unsanctioned and at a different rate. this is why I agree they should try to find a way to officially buy plat.

desk
08-14-2015, 11:40 AM
I didn't read past the first post because I found it confusing. I am sure I am just stupid but what does RMT mean?

plaguedealer
08-14-2015, 11:43 AM
Real money transaction, kind of like a gold seller in a mmo.

desk
08-14-2015, 11:48 AM
Real money transaction, kind of like a gold seller in a mmo.

Ah thanks

Gwaer
08-14-2015, 12:01 PM
I agree with almost every thing you are saying but this.

right now you can buy lets say 100 gold for one plat, but the person buying plat from crypto direct will pay more (dollars) per plat then the person buying plat on the black market (I do not endorse using it); this means they will spend less (dollars) per gold. if some people are getting gold cheaper this way the average value of gold will go down.

-edit

just to clarify this is only true when the transfer is unsanctioned and at a different rate. this is why I agree they should try to find a way to officially buy plat.

That doesn't devalue the gold that was purchased with plat, supply and demand still sets that price, and neither of those are changed. It does screw up plat value though when they don't keep up to date with currency fluctuations which I 100% agree that they need to get that sorted.

zadies
08-14-2015, 12:10 PM
That is gambling laws, we are talking about rmt laws regarding third parties. Like wow or another mmo that has a online currency and a third party is buying/selling gold. What liability does wow have for the third parties actions, I would be curious to know.

Taking away bots, if mmos sanction people beause of rmt, they are only doing it only for legal reasons? I am not sure that is true?

The issue is that WoW bans all RMT transactions but isn't particular about always enforcing the ban. Since Hex allows some RMT transactions they have to 100% insta-ban anyone that could get them in trouble with gambling laws with the cashing out of a currency instead of an item. Yes it is an extra step you have to go through to cash out but it also provides some protection from saying it's a gambling racket.

Jonesy
08-14-2015, 04:33 PM
I agree with almost every thing you are saying but this.

right now you can buy lets say 100 gold for one plat, but the person buying plat from crypto direct will pay more (dollars) per plat then the person buying plat on the black market (I do not endorse using it); this means they will spend less (dollars) per gold. if some people are getting gold cheaper this way the average value of gold will go down.

-edit

just to clarify this is only true when the transfer is unsanctioned and at a different rate. this is why I agree they should try to find a way to officially buy plat.

This has no direct effect on the gold/plat conversion rate. How much you paid in real dollars for plat means absolutely nothing to the person selling you gold for a given price. In fact, indirectly, its more likely to increase the gold/plat conversion rate, not decrease it, as since plat is half-off for you you could be willing to pay more plat for the same amount of gold.

Furthermore I doubt the black market cost of plat is going to affect anything. In order to buy super cheap plat somebody has to be selling super cheap plat. If everybody is cashing out on the cheap the game has much bigger problems. I don't think all the people using cash4gold IRL and selling their heirlooms at pawn shops are affecting the global price of gold and I doubt joe blow selling his collection at <50% value will affect Hex's economy either.

Zophie
08-14-2015, 06:19 PM
In order to be liable there must be what people call a mens rea, which is an intentional act.

http://i.imgur.com/xKTmxd0.gif

NOBLEStarshield
08-15-2015, 11:23 AM
http://i.imgur.com/xKTmxd0.gif

Zophie, YOU got into Harvard Law?

Zophie
08-15-2015, 01:59 PM
Zophie, YOU got into Harvard Law?

What? Like it's hard? :p