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Shaqattaq
08-21-2015, 05:19 PM
This week, we’re getting a double hit from Director of Game Theory, Ben Stoll.

Hi HEXers! As you saw yesterday, we’re patching next week Tuesday. Patching starts at 3 AM Pacific, so new tournament registration will close at 11 PM Pacific on Monday, August 24th.

Now that that’s out of the way let’s take a look at the second spoiler that players were able to see at Gen Con: the Warrior talent tree.

https://www.hextcg.com/hex-update-warriors-got-talent/

OP_Kyle
08-21-2015, 05:35 PM
First!

I heard this is a thing you do on the internet...

Gwaer
08-21-2015, 05:36 PM
Wow. Fantastic article. Very nice.

Gorgol
08-21-2015, 05:38 PM
such good much wow

Zophie
08-21-2015, 05:38 PM
Excellent update, I am super excited for the moment we can finally make our PVE Characters! HYPE!!!!

Gwaer
08-21-2015, 05:44 PM
Was easily a 1MB article.

chromus
08-21-2015, 05:50 PM
The Talent Tree looks great. So many combinations! 48 race-class combos multiplied by all the cards/equipment/mercs in the game =Infinity?! :D

bootlace
08-21-2015, 05:56 PM
Wow..you guys packed everything but the kitchen sink into the talent tree/class progression system! I think I'd even play a "high fantasy, dancing, karaoke game" with this kind of talent system. :D

N3rd4Christ
08-21-2015, 05:58 PM
:O'''''

Vorsa
08-21-2015, 06:03 PM
Too much to absorb! Definitely worth staying up too late for. :)

DaethStaR
08-21-2015, 06:10 PM
Pretty exciting stuff. I am hoping that there will be a chance for those of us in the community to get a look at in in action on test server when it is finally rolled out.

jimmywolf
08-21-2015, 07:14 PM
not going lie i hate waiting but your updates always make me smile an look forward too the end game. thank you for your hard work still happy i backed the KS.

plaguedealer
08-21-2015, 07:45 PM
EPIC this has me extremely excited for the future.

WolfCrypt
08-21-2015, 07:48 PM
Please the next tree be Ranger Cleric Mage or Warlock I'd hate to see my least fave classes be first. While Warrior is cool if your into bashing heads in with an axe/sword/hammer I prefer range and a Rogue and Warrior are inherently melee. So while this is awesome I hope next week will show talent tree of one of the races/classes I want. Am I the only one that wants to see a Coyotle Cleric class tree? I find inherently a coyotle be best Ardent cleric. Also showing an orc will next update be a Underworld race and class tree? Maybe a Shin'Hare rogue or a Necrotic Cleric? I can't wait for PVE.

Gwaer
08-21-2015, 08:09 PM
Coyotle are the worst clerics, they don't understand death.

Anyone to like: *dies*
coyotle cleric: *shrug* He was always dead anyway.

Lukezors
08-21-2015, 08:27 PM
Exciting stuff, I like it

madar
08-22-2015, 01:03 AM
WTB talent calculator

Salverus
08-22-2015, 01:07 AM
so there will be 48 heroes that we all have to level to 25 individually, ok cool! :D

only thing I am afraid of is that if respec is too expensive, someone will figure out the strongest path and post it on the forums, while the rest of the community copies that build, leaving us with no variety between players.
if respec is cheap-ish the players will experiment themselves and the variety is greater

velk
08-22-2015, 05:17 AM
so there will be 48 heroes that we all have to level to 25 individually, ok cool! :D

only thing I am afraid of is that if respec is too expensive, someone will figure out the strongest path and post it on the forums, while the rest of the community copies that build, leaving us with no variety between players.
if respec is cheap-ish the players will experiment themselves and the variety is greater

Well there's some limitation on that inherently in the tree itself, you probably won't want the same spec for your hero unless you are also using the same deck - for example the dinosaur talents are not particularly helpful if you have no dinosaurs, and blacksmithing is highly dependent on what equipment you are using.

On an unrelated note - adjacent or connected via a path seems redundant, given all connected talents are adjacent.

Chadatog
08-22-2015, 05:31 AM
so there will be 48 heroes that we all have to level to 25 individually, ok cool! :D

only thing I am afraid of is that if respec is too expensive, someone will figure out the strongest path and post it on the forums, while the rest of the community copies that build, leaving us with no variety between players.
if respec is cheap-ish the players will experiment themselves and the variety is greater

The article said free respecs once you reach the level cap.

Honestly I am a little bit disappointed that the Might system is gone. I thought that it was a great way to make it so that early content would not become obsolete once the level cap was reached on a character (on the account level). Now I hope they plan on making content repeatable with maxed champions by having multiple paths, or side events that trigger by doing something difficult in an encounter (for example defeating the shore town encounter without killing the head of the town in the Kracken dungeon) and make the rest of the dungeon (or the new path) more difficult with better loot drops.

Kilo24
08-22-2015, 07:49 AM
The article said free respecs once you reach the level cap.

Honestly I am a little bit disappointed that the Might system is gone. I thought that it was a great way to make it so that early content would not become obsolete once the level cap was reached on a character (on the account level). Now I hope they plan on making content repeatable with maxed champions by having multiple paths, or side events that trigger by doing something difficult in an encounter (for example defeating the shore town encounter without killing the head of the town in the Kracken dungeon) and make the rest of the dungeon (or the new path) more difficult with better loot drops.

The article said that at-will respeccing for max-level characters would be "possible". That doesn't preclude the possibility that achieving that may require completing a specific challenge or might involve an expensive consumable as another gold sink.

I'm also a little disappointed that the Might system is gone (it would have let them make much stronger abilities as a general in-dungeon reward system), but I don't expect that we'll have anywhere near the amount of obsolete content that most MMOs have. The power creep that manufactures it isn't nearly as strong.

Vorsa
08-22-2015, 08:18 AM
That Mountain God's Blessing race trait is a curious one - "+1 Talent point at level 7".
It's effect is obvious, but I don't see how it would be balanced without every race getting a comparable trait; you'd literally have different talent paths for races with 19 points total vs those with 20 points total, since that extra point would allow for talent combinations that are otherwise impossible...

Though it would seem odd for every race to have a talent point bonus at varying levels, as getting the point a.s.a.p. is surely desirable.
It would be equally odd to give some races fixed 1-point-talent-calibre traits instead, since beyond the difficulty making it appealing to all 6 classes at once they simply wouldn't open up the talent tree connections like an extra talent point does.

Prominis
08-22-2015, 08:32 AM
Although I'm mostly neutral on the removal of the Might system (adds replayability but makes long term investment feel less rewarding), I do feel that Might would be a great addition to a single dungeon/encounter/area, just to spin things up a little.
Maybe you're training up a mercenary or something, I don't know, but it'd make for an interesting change-up.

zadies
08-22-2015, 09:25 AM
On an unrelated note - adjacent or connected via a path seems redundant, given all connected talents are adjacent.

That is assuming that adjacent also counts for going vertically and not just horizontially.

rjselzler
08-22-2015, 11:16 AM
That Mountain God's Blessing race trait is a curious one - "+1 Talent point at level 7".
It's effect is obvious, but I don't see how it would be balanced without every race getting a comparable trait; you'd literally have different talent paths for races with 19 points total vs those with 20 points total, since that extra point would allow for talent combinations that are otherwise impossible...


Or variations thereof like "multi-point talents cost -X but you can only have Y of them" or "when you activate a free talent, you gain a talent point." I think you are spot-on in that any such talent tomfoolery would require serious balance so that not everyone is just running orc, because it is the best, period, but I think it is still way too early to worry about that.

On that note, the "you get one extra generic thing"-style trait seems more human, but Hex may choose to break from the somewhat established RPG tradition of humans being generalists.

Overall, I am super-stoked that they went back to a traditional, non-moba-style leveling system. The most fun that I have in RPGs is leveling and min/maxing alts and I am glad that Hex one again promises that experience for me. I sympathize for the folks that were stoked about Might (I was not. Like at all.), because you are where many of us original backers were when they announced Might. I wonder if they could eventually have a hybrid system that has a dungeon-specific temporary perk system for a few dungeons. That seems like it would be neat. Just a thought.

Lafoote
08-22-2015, 12:35 PM
Thoroughly excited by back to back PVE updates. Finally feels like we're getting to where I want to be.

Barkam
08-22-2015, 12:49 PM
This is amazing. You guys are going all out. Very smart. Establish that Hex is THE only true MMOTCG on the market.

Very exciting.

hitchslap88
08-22-2015, 01:49 PM
This is amazing. You guys are going all out. Very smart. Establish that Hex is THE only true MMOTCG on the market.

Very exciting.

Too bad Barkam won't be able to play elf ramp in PVE, since every time I've seen him cast Tit's he's hit 5 shards. But then, he can always just play Slaughtergear's :)

WolfCrypt
08-22-2015, 04:27 PM
Coyotle are the worst clerics, they don't understand death.

Anyone to like: *dies*
coyotle cleric: *shrug* He was always dead anyway.

Hey! Coyotles aren't that bad they would probably respect other religions and come on they need healers for their own troops!


so there will be 48 heroes that we all have to level to 25 individually, ok cool! :D

only thing I am afraid of is that if respec is too expensive, someone will figure out the strongest path and post it on the forums, while the rest of the community copies that build, leaving us with no variety between players.
if respec is cheap-ish the players will experiment themselves and the variety is greater

Like hell. I'm not respecting any meta I always go with what I want. If the meta is Orc like someone else mentioned then I won't do it any race beyond Orc and Vennan I'll look into.

Draqoin
08-22-2015, 04:50 PM
This is pretty awesome, I love the talent tree and the design article. I'm hopefully going to start going to school for a game design masters in a couple months, so any reading is great.

I got a question about the Talent Tree though if anyone can answer it.
In the example tree, does the Orc Race trait Fearless cancel out the negative of Weight? If so that's awesome!

Kilo24
08-22-2015, 04:52 PM
One thing that I will say is that I loathe the design of The Spoils of War. Absolutely everything else exclusively impacts gameplay, but The Spoils of War exclusively impacts rewards. It doesn't fit, and optimum PVE farming Warrior builds are going to be forced into taking that talent.

That's not to say that I'm opposed to the idea of making gameplay harder in order to increase the rewards. I love that idea. The issue is that its position as a talent means that you're sacrificing interesting flavorful gameplay abilities for a variable +12%-ish gold drop increase. I'd far prefer to have reward-increasing abilities be lumped in with other reward-increasing abilities (like, say, in a difficulty modifier system) instead of having them compete for space with something entirely unrelated to them.

I also really don't like the idea of people having to choose between better rewards for themselves and a better chance of the whole team winning when co-op dungeons or raids come into play. That specific bonus apparently doesn't apply in raids, but you're still forcing the respec cost on them if they want to be a team player.

We already have deck reliability and speed strongly affecting how effective decks are in farming PVE. That already puts a high cost on trying out different decks that may not be the most efficient. Please don't add in another layer of that by tying reward increases to deckbuilding factors like talent selection; that will worsen the problem further.

Aradon
08-22-2015, 04:58 PM
This is pretty awesome, I love the talent tree and the design article. I'm hopefully going to start going to school for a game design masters in a couple months, so any reading is great.

I got a question about the Talent Tree though if anyone can answer it.
In the example tree, does the Orc Race trait Fearless cancel out the negative of Weight? If so that's awesome!

The way I interpreted it was that Weight specifically interacted with Fearless and nothing else. It modifies Fearless's 100% trigger chance down to a 50% trigger chance, and in exchange gave you 5 more health. I imagine that there's still the typical coin flip, just if you have Weight, there's a 50% chance to skip the coin flip and go first, whereas if you don't have Weight, there's a 100% chance to get your choice of going first.


When it comes to the +1 talent point, though, I think it's a really neat design choice to make Orcs have more talent points than other races. I doubt it's something that will show up on other races, even at varying levels. The level difference isn't enough to justify the complexity of adding an extra box at different levels. It'd be a lot cleaner just to give it to everyone, at which point I wouldn't make it have a text box, just build in an extra talent point at level 10 or somesuch. I don't think a +1 talent box is mandatory for everyone for balance reasons, either. Other races could get comparable options in other ways. For example, what if a Coyotle got a blessing that let them pick 1 talent that isn't adjacent?


Edit: Question about how people are interpreting the pathways: Do the talents you pick need both a pathway AND to be adjacent? Or is merely adjacent sufficient? If you absolutely need a pathway, the talent 'tree' becomes fairly labyrinthine, which is both neat and a little frustrating :P

Draqoin
08-22-2015, 05:12 PM
Edit: Question about how people are interpreting the pathways: Do the talents you pick need both a pathway AND to be adjacent? Or is merely adjacent sufficient? If you absolutely need a pathway, the talent 'tree' becomes fairly labyrinthine, which is both neat and a little frustrating :P

I was also wondering about this question, I'd like to try to pre-plan an Orc Warrior build or two and am wondering if it means adjacent as in just on the left/right of your choice, or all three adjacent paths.

EDIT: I have another question, in regards to "Blacksmithing" and There are "Many Like it. But This One is Mine." Equipped cards means the cards in your deck that you have equipment for correct? To me its worded like a card has equipment on it.

rjselzler
08-22-2015, 06:22 PM
One thing that I will say is that I loathe the design of The Spoils of War. Absolutely everything else exclusively impacts gameplay, but The Spoils of War exclusively impacts rewards. It doesn't fit, and optimum PVE farming Warrior builds are going to be forced into taking that talent.

Hopefully we'll see each class have a unique rewards perk. Here are some completely baseless thoughts on the others:

Cleric: Alms-When you defeat a dungeon opponent and have more life than you started the game with you get a tithe buff. At the end of a dungeon, you get +1% extra gold for each buff. Max 10 stacks.
Rogue: Burglary-When you defeat a dungeon opponent using your charge power (backstab, amairite?) that opponent has a chance to yield extra treasure! (maybe on a separate loot table ala old-school rpgs...)
Ranger: Tracking-Increase chance to receive mercenary card rewards from dungeons.
Warlock: Necromancy-At the end of the dungeon, increase your chance to gain a troop card for every card that entered a graveyard in all games.
Mage: Conjuring-For each life/merc increase chance to receive additional stardust by 3%.

Just some quick ideas. Like everything else, we have nothing to compare this against, so it is premature to assume that anything will be OP. Loving the discussion, though.

EDIT: Misread your complaint. Sorry. I understand your dilemma now. I like this sort of thing, but totally get where you are coming from.

Vorsa
08-23-2015, 01:10 AM
I was also wondering about this question, I'd like to try to pre-plan an Orc Warrior build or two and am wondering if it means adjacent as in just on the left/right of your choice, or all three adjacent paths.

EDIT: I have another question, in regards to "Blacksmithing" and There are "Many Like it. But This One is Mine." Equipped cards means the cards in your deck that you have equipment for correct? To me its worded like a card has equipment on it.

Equipped cards = Cards that you have equipment currently slotted for: it's shown by the armour icon on cards when you're in matches, though there aren't currently any interactions with it.

Blacksmithing is an interesting talent to build a deck for; still some value even doubling-up equipment on key cards, but some huge discounts (and charge potential) if you simply slot 1 item for 6 separate cards that you're running 4 copies of.

velk
08-23-2015, 02:31 AM
That is assuming that adjacent also counts for going vertically and not just horizontially.

From the tree, some have horizontal paths, and some don't. So that doesn't actually make any difference to the question of 'path OR adjacent ? That makes no sense'

Draqoin
08-23-2015, 02:08 PM
i just thought of another question that is more for double checking. The article says that each class starts off with the charge power, in the example given that means that you start out with Battle. Am I correct in thinking this?

Aradon
08-23-2015, 02:52 PM
i just thought of another question that is more for double checking. The article says that each class starts off with the charge power, in the example given that means that you start out with Battle. Am I correct in thinking this?

Yeah, there are two boxes that don't have paths attached to them: the charge power, and the class gems. You get the charge power at level 1, and gems at level 8. Neither need points to activate.

Draqoin
08-23-2015, 05:33 PM
Yeah, there are two boxes that don't have paths attached to them: the charge power, and the class gems. You get the charge power at level 1, and gems at level 8. Neither need points to activate.

Wait, does that mean that you can only choose Talents that are connected by a red path? Like I can't go from High Tolerance for Pain to Conditioning?

Aradon
08-23-2015, 05:43 PM
Wait, does that mean that you can only choose Talents that are connected by a red path? Like I can't go from High Tolerance for Pain to Conditioning?

It's really hard for me to tell, but my suspicion is that you do need a pathway connecting them, not just adjacency. It's hard to confirm, though, because their wording is rather vague.

Vorpal
08-24-2015, 06:20 AM
The leveling system sounds really nice, way better than the old might system. I'm excited for pve.

elfstone
08-24-2015, 09:22 AM
on the one hand im happy to see PVE updates. On the other, why isn't it HERE yet! :p

BenStoll
08-24-2015, 06:10 PM
Hey guys,

Thanks for all the feedback! Love hearing your thoughts.

Sorry, I could have been clearer about the pathing/adjacency stuff. A selected talent has to be orthogonally (up down left or right) adjacent to a talent you've already selected, AND there has to be a pathway between the two.

So, for example, selecting High Tolerance for Pain (Far left and third down from the top in the tree) DOES NOT enable selection of Conditioning beneath it, or of Never Surrender to the right of it, as there is no red path (even though the talents are adjacent).

Hopefully that makes sense!


I got a question about the Talent Tree though if anyone can answer it.
In the example tree, does the Orc Race trait Fearless cancel out the negative of Weight? If so that's awesome!

Yes, this is a combo.


EDIT: I have another question, in regards to "Blacksmithing" and There are "Many Like it. But This One is Mine." Equipped cards means the cards in your deck that you have equipment for correct? To me its worded like a card has equipment on it.

The wording is a bit goofy. This talent refers to cards in your deck that you both own the equipment for and that your hero is currently wearing the equipment for.

Thanks!

BenStoll
08-24-2015, 06:16 PM
+1 Talent Point is, of course, a very impactful, defining, and special race trait. It's inherently much more flexible than the other race traits.

My hope is that when you consider it as stacked up against another trait that could also be 'worth' around a talent point (or maybe even a bit more), that also allows you to access something you can't find in a class tree, you're still excited by the alternative traits :)

Draqoin
08-24-2015, 08:18 PM
Sorry, I could have been clearer about the pathing/adjacency stuff. A selected talent has to be orthogonally (up down left or right) adjacent to a talent you've already selected, AND there has to be a pathway between the two.

So, for example, selecting High Tolerance for Pain (Far left and third down from the top in the tree) DOES NOT enable selection of Conditioning beneath it, or of Never Surrender to the right of it, as there is no red path (even though the talents are adjacent).

Cool, that's easy enough to understand. Though another question occurred to me, How are you supposed to select Weight as a Talent? It doesn't have any red paths connecting it anywhere, and selecting it first would mean not being able to select anything else.

WolfCrypt
08-25-2015, 03:40 AM
Cool, that's easy enough to understand. Though another question occurred to me, How are you supposed to select Weight as a Talent? It doesn't have any red paths connecting it anywhere, and selecting it first would mean not being able to select anything else.

Maybe you can select multiple talents? Like Weight is a you just get that your done talent then you can pick a branching one later on? That seems to be the most logical thing.

Assassine
08-25-2015, 07:25 AM
Talents in the top row are always available for selection as far as i know, so yeah, you can just pick weight off your path :)

halfwing
08-25-2015, 08:54 AM
Sorry, I could have been clearer about the pathing/adjacency stuff. A selected talent has to be orthogonally (up down left or right) adjacent to a talent you've already selected, AND there has to be a pathway between the two.

So, for example, selecting High Tolerance for Pain (Far left and third down from the top in the tree) DOES NOT enable selection of Conditioning beneath it, or of Never Surrender to the right of it, as there is no red path (even though the talents are adjacent).

The image has Training Grounds selected without anything connected to it. Should it have not been selected? Or was Training: Deployment selected, and just wasn't highlighted in the image?

I'm assuming the latter, because the Orc has 20 points spent, but not their +1 talent point from their racial. That talent being selected would make sense, even if it isn't shown in the image.


What I find interesting though, is the 'Starting Health'. The Orc Warriors health is shown to be 25. Is that unique to the class? Do warriors just get more health than everyone else? That would be interesting.

Its clearly not just from talents, because they have +8 HP from talents, not +5. Which also means that they start with 33 health which is INSANE. Perhaps Mages have a much higher hand size, but much less health. Definitely something fun to keep in mind while building.

Vorsa
08-25-2015, 12:53 PM
The image has Training Grounds selected without anything connected to it. Should it have not been selected? Or was Training: Deployment selected, and just wasn't highlighted in the image?

I'm assuming the latter, because the Orc has 20 points spent, but not their +1 talent point from their racial. That talent being selected would make sense, even if it isn't shown in the image.


What I find interesting though, is the 'Starting Health'. The Orc Warriors health is shown to be 25. Is that unique to the class? Do warriors just get more health than everyone else? That would be interesting.

Its clearly not just from talents, because they have +8 HP from talents, not +5. Which also means that they start with 33 health which is INSANE. Perhaps Mages have a much higher hand size, but much less health. Definitely something fun to keep in mind while building.

Good spot on Training Grounds! :D

Actually most races will only have 19 points to spend (gain one levels 2 - 20), so 20 points allocated includes the Mountain God bonus.

Warriors do look to have higher base health, but they also only have a starting hand size of 6 so they pay a heavy price for it...


+1 Talent Point is, of course, a very impactful, defining, and special race trait. It's inherently much more flexible than the other race traits.

My hope is that when you consider it as stacked up against another trait that could also be 'worth' around a talent point (or maybe even a bit more), that also allows you to access something you can't find in a class tree, you're still excited by the alternative traits :)

Ooh; looking forward to seeing them, then! :)
Those 7 other 'super traits' will surely be the hardest to balance - since they're pretty crucial to race balance - but I'm sure team Hex have some fun ideas for them...

In related news; sign me up for an Orc alt - I can't resist the theory-crafting potential of the race with the most talent points to spend!
I don't tend to play Orcs or female characters in MMO's/RPG's, but the Orc ladies of Hex tend to be spectacularly statuesque so might give one a shot.

WolfCrypt
08-25-2015, 04:01 PM
I'm quite curious for other races affinity powers. I assume Underworld and Ardent all get if 15 or more U/A factioned cards are in your deck you get +1. But what will Coyotles get a Prophecy effect?

Draqoin
08-26-2015, 11:54 AM
I just re-read the wording for selecting talents, and it does say you can always select any talent in the top row. Which is absolutely brilliant, and explains how one selects weight.

BenStoll
08-28-2015, 09:39 AM
The image has Training Grounds selected without anything connected to it. Should it have not been selected? Or was Training: Deployment selected, and just wasn't highlighted in the image?

I'm assuming the latter, because the Orc has 20 points spent, but not their +1 talent point from their racial. That talent being selected would make sense, even if it isn't shown in the image.


What I find interesting though, is the 'Starting Health'. The Orc Warriors health is shown to be 25. Is that unique to the class? Do warriors just get more health than everyone else? That would be interesting.

Its clearly not just from talents, because they have +8 HP from talents, not +5. Which also means that they start with 33 health which is INSANE. Perhaps Mages have a much higher hand size, but much less health. Definitely something fun to keep in mind while building.

Wow, good catch on the Training Grounds indeed. I have no idea how I missed that while reviewing the layout. Whoops! It is indeed a mistake and shows an illegal talent selection.

Each class has their own unique starting health and hand size, with Warrior's being 6 and 25.

ziggarius
08-28-2015, 11:47 AM
Each class has their own unique starting health and hand size, with Warrior's being 6 and 25.

Mmm, 25 card starting hand sounds amazing.


(Side note: what class gets the largest starting hand and how big will it get if you go all out to max it?)

Aradon
08-28-2015, 01:29 PM
Mmm, 25 card starting hand sounds amazing.


(Side note: what class gets the largest starting hand and how big will it get if you go all out to max it?)

Even starting at 6 health, I think I'd go for it. Put your whole combo in your hand, pop spectral lotus, win turn 1.

Salverus
08-28-2015, 02:41 PM
I m pretty sure he meant starting hand of 6 and starting hp at 25.
imagine the power of holy ascension with only 6 hp at start and 25 cards in hand....

Shaqattaq
08-28-2015, 03:53 PM
Yes, it's a starting hand size of 6 and starting health of 25 (because Warriors are less brains, more brawn)

WolfCrypt
08-28-2015, 10:59 PM
So.. There are some talents with no path can you select them and then a talent with one or no? Also I'm curious will every class have self Bane cards like Old Wound? Hmm I suppose bane cards would balance out all the op talents..? And are free talents automatically obtained when a path goes through them?

ziggarius
08-29-2015, 03:20 AM
I m pretty sure he meant starting hand of 6 and starting hp at 25.
imagine the power of holy ascension with only 6 hp at start and 25 cards in hand....

Yes, I know. That's why I asked which class gets the most starting hand and what would be max possible :P

ziggarius
08-29-2015, 03:21 AM
So.. There are some talents with no path can you select them and then a talent with one or no? Also I'm curious will every class have self Bane cards like Old Wound? Hmm I suppose bane cards would balance out all the op talents..? And are free talents automatically obtained when a path goes through them?

Free talents have to be chosen, they're not forced. However some powerful talents can only be gotten by taking a free talent.

WolfCrypt
08-29-2015, 08:28 AM
Can we choose talents we've passed? I mean if free talents are needed for capstones how do I know which capstone I want till I can pick them? I won't see them till like level 15

BenStoll
08-31-2015, 12:44 PM
One thing that I will say is that I loathe the design of The Spoils of War. Absolutely everything else exclusively impacts gameplay, but The Spoils of War exclusively impacts rewards. It doesn't fit, and optimum PVE farming Warrior builds are going to be forced into taking that talent.

That's not to say that I'm opposed to the idea of making gameplay harder in order to increase the rewards. I love that idea. The issue is that its position as a talent means that you're sacrificing interesting flavorful gameplay abilities for a variable +12%-ish gold drop increase. I'd far prefer to have reward-increasing abilities be lumped in with other reward-increasing abilities (like, say, in a difficulty modifier system) instead of having them compete for space with something entirely unrelated to them.

I also really don't like the idea of people having to choose between better rewards for themselves and a better chance of the whole team winning when co-op dungeons or raids come into play. That specific bonus apparently doesn't apply in raids, but you're still forcing the respec cost on them if they want to be a team player.

We already have deck reliability and speed strongly affecting how effective decks are in farming PVE. That already puts a high cost on trying out different decks that may not be the most efficient. Please don't add in another layer of that by tying reward increases to deckbuilding factors like talent selection; that will worsen the problem further.

Hey Kilo,

First of all, thanks for sharing both your opinions and the logic behind them. Your exploration of what sort of decisions+consequences should be in what system or not and why is very thoughtful. Without being able to center my response more around that context (sorry!) I would love to ask...

Setting aside the issue of Raids for a moment, how would a free talent (Free Talents don't cost talent points to take) that featured a gameplay drawback for a farm boost sit with you? For example, "-2 Health +5% Gold."

You are no longer "missing out on other gameplay related talents" by taking this talent (since it costs no points), but you are still making an in-game sacrifice for an out-of-game increase. Still just too bothered by it's existence in the talent tree? Is it less bad? Exact same? Totally fine?

Kilo24
08-31-2015, 03:37 PM
Hey Kilo...

Thanks for the response. I wasn't expecting a direct one from a developer.


Setting aside the issue of Raids for a moment, how would a free talent (Free Talents don't cost talent points to take) that featured a gameplay drawback for a farm boost sit with you? For example, "-2 Health +5% Gold."

You are no longer "missing out on other gameplay related talents" by taking this talent (since it costs no points), but you are still making an in-game sacrifice for an out-of-game increase. Still just too bothered by it's existence in the talent tree? Is it less bad? Exact same? Totally fine?

I would say that it is a substantial improvement because it is no longer impacting the variety of builds.

If, however, it is still something class-specific, I would still dislike it: it's going to be very unlikely that both the drawbacks and the advantages of the free talent are going to be similar in power level but unique in effects. If the advantages were identical but the disadvantages were unique, it would be less of an issue (mainly because I expect that the disadvantages are going to be overshadowed by the consistent +5% gold advantage in farming).

If it is not class-specific - if any character could take the talent regardless of class - I would like it.

If it was not a talent at all, but was sort of a Hard Mode that you opt into before starting a dungeon, I'd like it a lot. If it was one of several modifiers that you could pick to customize your own Hard Mode for a dungeon, I would love it (especially if intertwined with dungeon-specific ones as well).

I'd love to be able to tailor the difficulty of PVE so that every dungeon could remain a challenge, and - especially if you're able to stack these types of mechanics - it would help make it so that not only is that possible to do so for a wide range of decks, it's also incentivized. But it's very hard to strike that balance well once, let alone independently for each class. And it'll be quite likely that that sweet spot of self-handicapping where it's most fun to play is going to vary from dungeon to dungeon and as you level up/change your deck. As such (and even with respeccing), I don't think that talents are the best place to do this type of thing.

EDIT: If you're curious about the type of stackable self-handicapping systems I'm talking about, Transistor, Bastion and Fable all provide good examples of them.

WolfCrypt
08-31-2015, 04:56 PM
But what about us more... Casual players? Also just because Warriors get a loot buff doesn't mean other classes won't get some kind of reward buffs. Maybe Warlocks have a skill that randomly takes a card from the graveyard as a drop? Maybe mages make it easier to farm mercs or equipment? Just because Warriors get extra loot doesn'tt mean nobody will play any other race. Also I think you should be aware that the update said the talents are subject to change.

Gwaer
08-31-2015, 05:00 PM
I'm totally cool with more difficult classes having more powerful loot buffs. I'm also cool with limiting builds with loot bonuses, if I could sink 20 talent points into increasing my loot rewards, and not get any of the power increases of talents? I'd probably do that.

WolfCrypt
08-31-2015, 05:11 PM
Frankly I'd never sacrifice power for loot drops the hell

Gwaer
08-31-2015, 05:13 PM
I'd always sacrifice power for loot. It's harder, I love a challenge, and I get more loot. Win/Win. =)

WolfCrypt
08-31-2015, 05:21 PM
I only want a challenge when I'm max level and beaten everything.

hitchslap88
08-31-2015, 05:24 PM
I'd always sacrifice power for loot. It's harder, I love a challenge, and I get more loot. Win/Win. =)

Ditto. And I agree with Kilo. If a loot increase is present in the tree, serious PVEers are bound to it, limiting viable paths. A free talent would be better. Multiple talents with cumulative modifiers would be better still.

Yoss
08-31-2015, 05:50 PM
I would say that it is a substantial improvement because it is no longer impacting the variety of builds.

If, however, it is still something class-specific, I would still dislike it: it's going to be very unlikely that both the drawbacks and the advantages of the free talent are going to be similar in power level but unique in effects. If the advantages were identical but the disadvantages were unique, it would be less of an issue (mainly because I expect that the disadvantages are going to be overshadowed by the consistent +5% gold advantage in farming).

If it is not class-specific - if any character could take the talent regardless of class - I would like it.

If it was not a talent at all, but was sort of a Hard Mode that you opt into before starting a dungeon, I'd like it a lot. If it was one of several modifiers that you could pick to customize your own Hard Mode for a dungeon, I would love it (especially if intertwined with dungeon-specific ones as well).

I'd love to be able to tailor the difficulty of PVE so that every dungeon could remain a challenge, and - especially if you're able to stack these types of mechanics - it would help make it so that not only is that possible to do so for a wide range of decks, it's also incentivized. But it's very hard to strike that balance well once, let alone independently for each class. And it'll be quite likely that that sweet spot of self-handicapping where it's most fun to play is going to vary from dungeon to dungeon and as you level up/change your deck. As such (and even with respeccing), I don't think that talents are the best place to do this type of thing.

EDIT: If you're curious about the type of stackable self-handicapping systems I'm talking about, Transistor, Bastion and Fable all provide good examples of them.
I'd just like to echo this entire post, and add that several of us already came up with a large list of possible opt-in difficulty modes:

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=27026

Kilo24
08-31-2015, 09:54 PM
But what about us more... Casual players? Also just because Warriors get a loot buff doesn't mean other classes won't get some kind of reward buffs. Maybe Warlocks have a skill that randomly takes a card from the graveyard as a drop? Maybe mages make it easier to farm mercs or equipment? Just because Warriors get extra loot doesn'tt mean nobody will play any other race. Also I think you should be aware that the update said the talents are subject to change.

If he intended the free talent to be class-exclusive, then I am assuming that every class will get something similar. But, I don't think that it would be possible to develop a diverse set of talents that all grant the same level of rewards or even close to it. If all the loot drops were bind-on-pickup, then providing a unique loot advantage to each class could be justifiable: if you want something specific, the best way to get it would be with a specific class. But, because practically everything can be sold on the Auction House, you can convert each loot advantage into a rough expected plat/gold value and I can guarantee you that it would take a lot of work to make those numbers even vaguely similar to eachother in the free economy that we have. As such, one or perhaps a few advantages are going to be the cream of the crop and obviously substantially more valuable than all of the others. The specific best grinder may vary from one loot table to another, but I'd eat my hat if every class was roughly equally good at grinding loot.

I am very aware that the talents are subject to change. That's the very reason discussing them is worthwhile. :)


I'm totally cool with more difficult classes having more powerful loot buffs. I'm also cool with limiting builds with loot bonuses, if I could sink 20 talent points into increasing my loot rewards, and not get any of the power increases of talents? I'd probably do that.

I'm not. For one, I sincerely hope that they're not intending one class to be more powerful than another class. More complex, sure, but not more powerful. Of course, they're never going to achieve perfect balance - relative class viability will fluctuate from set to set and with every new powerful card/equipment/mercenary - but trying to do so means that they'll correct any major differences in power level; that leaves players to play the class they find the most fun instead of feeling like they're forced into the most profitable class. If they attempt to balance out power level differences with loot reward differences, I think it's going to be downright impossible to achieve with any precision and it's also going to provide an easy solution for power disparity instead of forcing a deeper design review.

For two, whatever is the most rewarding build to pick is going to be the bread-and-butter of PVE. Unless it's an incredibly severe downside, the best players are going to be picking every tradeoff possible to maximize their rewards. If you could trade off 20 talent points for loot rewards, I - along with every other serious player - would probably end up doing that too; we'd all end up with a very simple character and would probably pick the same race/class combo (I doubt that race and class will be designed for parity in a talent-free world). We've got a full deck, mercenaries, and equipment to shore us up so I sincerely doubt that we'll end up struggling to win. Practically speaking, the whole talent tree would not exist for us, and we would be missing out on a large part of the game.

And the key issue here is that we're actually not getting much for it on a game-wide level. Because gold income will be dominated by people like us, prices of things that aren't preset gold sinks will rise to our level as gold gets inflated. People who don't have the cards or levels to grind like we do (like new players) are going to find it harder to compete in their gold-grinding efforts which is a recipe for frustration. We get a little more purchasing power for our efforts off the back of the masses, but not that much (especially if people are quitting because the gold grind sucks for them). So... I sincerely hope that that is not an option.

On that note, I do hope that, regardless of whatever styles of loot drop buffs end up getting into the game, the reward levels don't get *too* high. If a player with a big collection can get, say, five times the max income of a new player, we're going to chase away new players as they can't get enough gold on their own to afford to improve their decks. This is something that worries me a great deal with Arena; a good deck gets so much more gold more quickly than a starter deck because it plays quicker and because reliably getting through the higher tiers is substantially more profitable than repeatedly trying to survive T1. Adding on gold multipliers for self-handicaps is going to make that worse (but I do think it'll still be worth it if it lets dungeons keep their difficulty).

WolfCrypt
09-01-2015, 01:32 AM
I'm sure the pve team is thinking about this. I pmed Ben personally bout a pve related matter I was deeply concerned for and he vaguely told me they been thinking about it. If something I asked no one else did was a top priority of the pve team I'm pretty dang sure making talent's balance and protecting the economy is a priority as well.

Gwaer
09-01-2015, 01:34 AM
Yea. You and I are incredibly far apart on this. A more difficult class to play absolutely deserves to be more powerful. Even if you just break it down to a time~loot ratio the more difficult class to play will spend more time per encounter so it's loot bonus would need to be higher just to be 'even' with other more simple classes. Also if the default would be to spend all 20 talents into loot increases that doesn't mean that all loot increases are static gold increases. Also if just anyone can do it then pve isn't hard enough. It should be a huge part decrease. You should have to work at completing anything if you're taking that kind of hit, otherwise what's the point of character progression/leveling.

The way you break it down, the fastest and most consistent combination will always be the only option anyway. So might as well run with that and include completely gimped characters for more loot.

WolfCrypt
09-01-2015, 01:53 AM
I personally want campaign to hopefully be easier to loot then having to struggle to beat a boss in arena. I hope that every level you beat in Campaign will give loot in every other rpg every monster drops crap to sell if your not on a specific quests for them and etc drops tend to make you rich by having a bajillion of them. I'm sure HXE has other ideas but to struggle to beat 5 bosses when only beating bosses gives you equip andpve cards is rather annoying. Also while I want a better time to loot cuz Arena just ugh.. I'm more concerned with joining PVE simply to explore all of Entrath's lore. A lot of mmo rpgs are "Name: Gargoyle: Hp 1200" There you go or they have a interesting plot but the focus is on content more then story and content. I like Hex because they are deeply concerned with making players happy and making an epic fantasy that could be the next World of Warcraft just free. PVE I believe has been mentioned as to having a direct link to pvp in terms of the pve story might effect new cards. I'm not sure that's true but I recall someone mentioning it and I can't be sure it's true. Also I'm more eager to use talents to create a char that emulates my fave archtypes like Briarpatch or Deepgaze. Rather then make a char that's really good for farming.. Also for campaign I'm hoping to find roleplayers and treat campaign like roleplaying server WoW has. So while I do want some difficulty I don't want things to be too easy at the same time I don't want them to focus on extra dungeons hard mode or stuff like that and I do want an easier time for farming. But I must admit in all honesty I'm more concerned for campaign to have all the gritty details of war black magic and various factions of the same race so everyplayer can be the baddest and coolest looking champion they can be. I also hope Raids will have a lot of backstory.

Gwaer
09-01-2015, 02:43 AM
One thing the campaign definitely will do is make it easier for new players to get started. Be it learning the game better or just getting enough to more easily progress and learn to properly build decks.

WolfCrypt
09-01-2015, 03:14 AM
I certainly not a good deck builder

Mike411
09-01-2015, 06:21 AM
Setting aside the issue of Raids for a moment, how would a free talent (Free Talents don't cost talent points to take) that featured a gameplay drawback for a farm boost sit with you?

I for one would love that talent, as long as we could get a free respec or choose a different character when raiding.

Xenavire
09-01-2015, 07:57 AM
I want hard content. I especially want all raids to be very freaking hard. And I want to have the cleric class actually care about healing and your health, and not end up a mage with a few heals dropped in. If those things are true, I will be a happy camper.

I could care less about how fast I can get loot, as long as it is fair between the classes. What I do care about is having the content be compelling enough that I want to go back, and not just grind arena because its faster. And for me, being able to actually feel like a healer is pretty critical to that equation.

The devs have a lot on their plates, balance-wise, so I can't wait to see how it shapes up.

WolfCrypt
09-01-2015, 08:06 AM
@Xen I honestly can't agree more all points are more or less what I want.

Silvanos
09-01-2015, 08:20 AM
Yea. You and I are incredibly far apart on this. A more difficult class to play absolutely deserves to be more powerful. Even if you just break it down to a time~loot ratio the more difficult class to play will spend more time per encounter so it's loot bonus would need to be higher just to be 'even' with other more simple classes. Also if the default would be to spend all 20 talents into loot increases that doesn't mean that all loot increases are static gold increases. Also if just anyone can do it then pve isn't hard enough. It should be a huge part decrease. You should have to work at completing anything if you're taking that kind of hit, otherwise what's the point of character progression/leveling.

The way you break it down, the fastest and most consistent combination will always be the only option anyway. So might as well run with that and include completely gimped characters for more loot.

I'm with Kilo on this one. I guess I don't see how you are coming by the whole "more difficult class to play absolutely deserves to be more powerful" thing. That makes sense to me, logically, but I don't see anything in this talent tree that makes me think Warriors are "difficult to play and thus, more powerful". Its not like this a MOBA where some characters have skill shots and others autotarget. The gold bonus is making it more difficult to play, but also increasing the rewards, and that is something that could just as easily be done with an external modifier.

As to Ben's question, I would prefer the free talent to the normal talent, and would prefer a dungeon modifier to having it be tied to talents at all. I hated MF gear in D3 for this exact reason. It felt unfun to me to make my character less powerful (the opposite of the power fantasy that brawlers like to give you) and give up various neat equipment/skill interactions, to be more efficient at farming.

A real issue for me, personally, with games that have an economy, is that it becomes very easy for the game to become a really poorly paying job. When everything you do in game is tied to a real world value, you can easily translate your time into dollars, and then the game is not about fun but about maximizing revenue. I've sunk hundreds of hours into playing Destiny, and that time is worth absolutely zero (negative really, since I buy the expansions). I do it just for fun, or for the sake of completing some meaningless in-game objective. When I played D3 with the AH, the game was just about making gold as fast as you could. Similarly in Hex, I find myself thinking "well, should I spend time grinding gold in my 200th arena run, or just spend that time listing things on the AH to get gold that way? Neither really sounds like fun, but I would like to have gold, so which should I do." Because the game items have extrinsic value, it can never be "just a game" to me. There is always a value calculation that goes into everything I do.
Let me emphasize that I don't think is necessarily a fault of game developers, but rather just the way my brain works.

Kilo24
09-01-2015, 09:51 AM
Yea. You and I are incredibly far apart on this. A more difficult class to play absolutely deserves to be more powerful. Even if you just break it down to a time~loot ratio the more difficult class to play will spend more time per encounter so it's loot bonus would need to be higher just to be 'even' with other more simple classes.
A class being difficult to play does not mean it's necessarily going to be slow. There are fast decks that are hard to play and slow decks that are easy to play; I see no difference with classes. Moreover, the time it takes to play a difficult deck is going to drop with the more experience you get with it, so that time/loot ratio is going to be a moving target.

I will say that you do have a good point here. But classes aren't everything; I fully expect that we'll have a wide range of speed and viability for each class since we still have decks, equipment, mercenaries and two other charge powers to work with. In that environment, I just don't see the valuation of individual classes being accurate enough to warrant such a balance tweak.


Also if the default would be to spend all 20 talents into loot increases that doesn't mean that all loot increases are static gold increases.
Correct; it doesn't. I used gold because it's the only benefit in the examples that we were given. But whatever gets used as a reward is going to have a similar inflation problem.

That being said, I do think that it's likely that reward-increasing options will center on gold. It's designed to be a reliable and generally useful reward in a way that other rewards are not; it's something that everybody will consistently want.


Also if just anyone can do it then pve isn't hard enough. It should be a huge part decrease. You should have to work at completing anything if you're taking that kind of hit, otherwise what's the point of character progression/leveling.
From the last word we've heard on mercenaries, you can swap with your main champion out with one and replace him at will after you've already beaten the dungeon for the first time. If that's still the case, then it won't matter what the hit is because your mercenary won't be affected by your talents' ingame effects.

If the loot drop increase doesn't apply to your mercenary, then nobody playing seriously would ever use mercenaries. (This is an overly reductionist statement, but I do think it's largely true.)

Setting the specific issue of mercenaries aside, the general issue here is that that "20-points-into-loot" self-handicap system is designed in such a way that the handicaps are you cutting yourself out of a large gameplay system, instead of letting you use all the gameplay systems you have to creatively to overcome handicaps. I fully agree that you should be able to self-impose a hit of that magnitude, but I'd prefer to have the whole game at my disposal to combat it instead of losing access to core systems.


The way you break it down, the fastest and most consistent combination will always be the only option anyway. So might as well run with that and include completely gimped characters for more loot.
Here's an important distinction to make: the fastest and most consistent combination will set the standard, but it's not going to be the only option played unless it's in a league of its own. For the sake of budget, variety, and personal preference, players will naturally want to tweak the ideal deck and/or play decks that are almost as good. A lot of players would be okay playing something that gave them 80% of the gold/time return of the "best" deck, but not okay with playing something that gave them 20%. The more options that exist around that "best" deck, the more decks we're going to see that get close to its power level - but if you permit those options to be traded out for better loot drops, the range of good PVE decks narrows considerably.

And it's worth noting that the Hex revenue model is based on persuading people to buy a variety of cards, not on raw expenditure of time or on buying more than 4 of a card or 1 of equipment/mercenaries. It's directly in their interests to encourage as much diversity as possible.


As to Ben's question, I would prefer the free talent to the normal talent, and would prefer a dungeon modifier to having it be tied to talents at all. I hated MF gear in D3 for this exact reason. It felt unfun to me to make my character less powerful (the opposite of the power fantasy that brawlers like to give you) and give up various neat equipment/skill interactions, to be more efficient at farming.
I personally had Diablo 2's magic-finding gear in mind when writing these posts. The high importance of that gear ended up meaning that everybody needed a magic-finding sorceress to repeatedly kill like three specific enemies in the whole game because those are what gave you the best "income" of unique item drops. Sorceresses were skill-based instead of equipment-based so they could swap out for a mfing set relatively inexpensively and they naturally had Teleport, so they were much better at it than other classes - as such, diversity was low and repetition was high. D3 at the very least addressed that issue with adventure mode and a more time-based system of legendary drops.


A real issue for me, personally, with games that have an economy, is that it becomes very easy for the game to become a really poorly paying job. When everything you do in game is tied to a real world value, you can easily translate your time into dollars, and then the game is not about fun but about maximizing revenue. I've sunk hundreds of hours into playing Destiny, and that time is worth absolutely zero (negative really, since I buy the expansions). I do it just for fun, or for the sake of completing some meaningless in-game objective. When I played D3 with the AH, the game was just about making gold as fast as you could. Similarly in Hex, I find myself thinking "well, should I spend time grinding gold in my 200th arena run, or just spend that time listing things on the AH to get gold that way? Neither really sounds like fun, but I would like to have gold, so which should I do." Because the game items have extrinsic value, it can never be "just a game" to me. There is always a value calculation that goes into everything I do.
Let me emphasize that I don't think is necessarily a fault of game developers, but rather just the way my brain works.

The Auction House definitely has strong upsides and downsides. It's much better designed than D3's, but still causes a lot of issues and pretty every game system design needs to take it into account.

malloc31
09-01-2015, 10:22 AM
I like it best where the "best" build will be the strongest build, not the build that grants the most loot. Any build options that give more loot will be used by almost any one. And they take away using otherwise fun things.

For example:

lets say you add equipment that doesn't buff a card but gives you +5% gold. every one will use this and only 5 equipment slots. Every one really gets a static 5% gold bonus and losses the fun of the 6th equipment slot. Instead of doing that just add a hard mode where your base stats change and you get %5 gold and you will get the same effect with out the lost fun. If you want to do this by giving every class a identical free talent that says gain 5% gold, lose X life; you can do it that way but it just seems not really the right place for it. (if only because you are forcing people to pay to respec every time they want to turn it off or on)

Vorsa
09-01-2015, 12:08 PM
D'oh; PvE discussion going on and I missed it! :eek:

Personally I like Ben's idea of utilizing a free talent, but how about this mash-up for an idea...

Levelling up = No loot buff talents.
Max. level = New 'branch' of talents appears at the side of the talent tree (n.b. the graphic we have isn't indicative of actual presentation).

All talents carry the "DUNGEONS ONLY" characteristic (like the Orc trait "Fearless"), so as not to interfere with raids.
The top-most is available without pre-requisite, as any other starting talent - from there, it is a straight path of progression to select more.
All talents in this branch increase rewards while either heightening challenge or lowering efficiency, with increasing severity.

E.g.

[1] Legendary Dungeon Runner
DUNGEONS ONLY. If you complete a Dungeon Run without losing a life, +5% gold.

[2] Risk Taker
DUNGEONS ONLY. -4 Health. 25% Chance of extra loot from bosses.

[3] Deep Pockets
DUNGEONS ONLY. +5 Minimum Deck Size. +5% Gold.

[4] Keen Eye
DUNGEONS ONLY. At the start of each encounter, create 4 Luck Sacks in your deck (or 8 for 100+ cards in your deck). +25% Chance of extra loot from bosses.

[5] Naked Avarice
DUNGEONS ONLY. -1 Starting Hand Size. +10% Gold.

[6] Death or Glory
DUNGEONS ONLY. You start Dungeon Runs on your last life. +50% Chance of extra loot from bosses.

Gwaer
09-01-2015, 12:52 PM
Neat idea.

malloc31
09-01-2015, 12:52 PM
D'oh; PvE discussion going on and I missed it! :eek:

Personally I like Ben's idea of utilizing a free talent, but how about this mash-up for an idea...

Levelling up = No loot buff talents.
Max. level = New 'branch' of talents appears at the side of the talent tree (n.b. the graphic we have isn't indicative of actual presentation).

All talents carry the "DUNGEONS ONLY" characteristic (like the Orc trait "Fearless"), so as not to interfere with raids.
The top-most is available without pre-requisite, as any other starting talent - from there, it is a straight path of progression to select more.
All talents in this branch increase rewards while either heightening challenge or lowering efficiency, with increasing severity.

E.g.

[1] Legendary Dungeon Runner
DUNGEONS ONLY. If you complete a Dungeon Run without losing a life, +5% gold.

[2] Risk Taker
DUNGEONS ONLY. -4 Health. 25% Chance of extra loot from bosses.

[3] Deep Pockets
DUNGEONS ONLY. +5 Minimum Deck Size. +5% Gold.

[4] Keen Eye
DUNGEONS ONLY. At the start of each encounter, create 4 Luck Sacks in your deck (or 8 for 100+ cards in your deck). +25% Chance of extra loot from bosses.

[5] Naked Avarice
DUNGEONS ONLY. -1 Starting Hand Size. +10% Gold.

[6] Death or Glory
DUNGEONS ONLY. You start Dungeon Runs on your last life. +50% Chance of extra loot from bosses.

In what way would having talents that do this be better (in any way) then having hard mode settings that do this (they could also require you be at max level to use)?

Gwaer
09-01-2015, 12:56 PM
Theoretically we could have both I guess. Maybe the hard modes don't increase loot drops but instead have different loot tables.

Vorsa
09-01-2015, 01:03 PM
In what way would having talents that do this be better (in any way) then having hard mode settings that do this (they could also require you be at max level to use)?

Well it doesn't have to be better per say, but it's one less interface to have a talent branch & is more 'characterful' to expand e.g. if it were to fork into mutually exclusive choices between gold, loot, crafting material bonuses etc.

Yoss
09-01-2015, 01:32 PM
I much prefer just implementing Hard Modes over doing "Magic Find" gear and talents. I agree with Kilo that I'd rather not have to cut myself off from content (skills and gear) just to increase my difficulty. Rather, I'd like to just increase my difficulty while still having my full arsenal.

I'm pretty sure that a "150 card minimum", "max 1 of any card other than basic shards", "start at 1HP", "start with no cards in hand", "must include at least one card from every shard", "commons only" combinatorial would be sufficiently hard for even the best of us. ;)

Audens
09-01-2015, 02:11 PM
I'm pretty sure that a "150 card minimum", "max 1 of any card other than basic shards", "start at 1HP", "start with no cards in hand", "must include at least one card from every shard", "commons only" combinatorial would be sufficiently hard for even the best of us. ;)

Speak for yourself. I routinely speed-run Arena with my Jank Bot Highlander Prismatic Rock deck...after mulliganing to zero and without losing a single life, obviously.

Silvanos
09-01-2015, 02:43 PM
Speak for yourself. I routinely speed-run Arena with my Jank Bot Highlander Prismatic Rock deck...after mulliganing to zero and without losing a single life, obviously.

Every fight is uphill both ways, and it's always snowing.

malloc31
09-01-2015, 03:26 PM
Well it doesn't have to be better per say, but it's one less interface to have a talent branch & is more 'characterful' to expand e.g. if it were to fork into mutually exclusive choices between gold, loot, crafting material bonuses etc.

I already provided reasons it is worse having it as talents.

a) it prevents you from using talents that they bothered to develop that would be more "fun"
b) they have already said there will be a cost to respec, so if you want it on only for some dungeons you would have to keep paying it to switch back and forth.

So if there is no reason to cause these problems it would be better to implement the same effects as hard modes, they should just make them hard modes.

hitchslap88
09-01-2015, 05:08 PM
What about non dungeon PVE? I'd like to have loot buffs during exploration as well.

WolfCrypt
09-01-2015, 05:23 PM
I can care less about loot skills actually unless it's a MoBA I'd never want loot skills.

Xenavire
09-01-2015, 07:23 PM
Speak for yourself. I routinely speed-run Arena with my Jank Bot Highlander Prismatic Rock deck...after mulliganing to zero and without losing a single life, obviously.

Jank bot in rock? Something stinks here...


I already provided reasons it is worse having it as talents.

a) it prevents you from using talents that they bothered to develop that would be more "fun"
b) they have already said there will be a cost to respec, so if you want it on only for some dungeons you would have to keep paying it to switch back and forth.

So if there is no reason to cause these problems it would be better to implement the same effects as hard modes, they should just make them hard modes.


You will be given limited ability to re-spec as your character levels (we want your decisions to have weight, but we donít you to be stuck from a single decision you regret).
It will be possible to achieve at-will respeccing with max level characters


I am sure there will be some kind of cost, but at-will suggests it shouldn't be too insane, or they would have mentioned 'for a price' in that line.

malloc31
09-01-2015, 07:37 PM
I am sure there will be some kind of cost, but at-will suggests it shouldn't be too insane, or they would have mentioned 'for a price' in that line.

they said "You will be given limited ability to re-spec as your character levels (we want your decisions to have weight, but we don’t you to be stuck from a single decision you regret)."

I would think that the way it will be limited will be a combination of not being able to respec mid-dungeon and some form of cost, otherwise even if it is only when not in dungeons it would still be considered unlimited respecing (unlimited = you could respec 10 times in a row with no penalty to you).

Parzival
09-02-2015, 03:08 AM
I've read a couple of pages but may have missed this, so forgive me :o

Are we still allowed more than one alt per account, last time I checked it was yes?

If so, then I have no problem with talents requiring the balance between rewards and power, that's great in my eyes, give me more choices to make and after D3 I'm all for more choices and not less.

Nobody would be cut off from content or pigeon holed, you would just have a stable of specialised alts that evolved with the dungeon meta :cool:

On the other hand, if we are only allowed one char per account then such talents would be bad, imho and should be options (changeable between dungeons) at the account level.

WolfCrypt
09-02-2015, 03:28 AM
I believe you get six intented to be one of every class. I personally am having four warlocks of diff races. Also my idea for an Elf Warlock skill be something like..

Fertilizer: Once per turn a random troop in opposing graveyard turns into a Briar Legion and is put into your deck.

Nature's Revenge: Unlock 1 Nature's Revenge(Quick Action Cost 5: All troops on the field have 10% times number of attack to turn into a random plant on your side)

Roses Have Thorns: Free Talent. Unlock Thorny Rose: (Cost 0: When this is drawn look at top ten cards of deck and lose 1hp per plant shuffle the deck)

Captstone: Perquisite: Roses Have Thorns: Conjurer: Forsakened Garden: Unlock Forsakened Garden: All plants or Warlocks in your deck have: When this enters play deal 1 damage to all opposing troops. Any killed this way is put on your field as a Briar Legion, Briar Moss, or Poisoned Legion.)

That's what I wanna see I can care less bout farming skills. I'll worry bout farming when I need it. Right now I want skills to make me feel like I'mm using my fave cards as my pve champion!

Xenavire
09-02-2015, 06:05 AM
they said "You will be given limited ability to re-spec as your character levels (we want your decisions to have weight, but we don’t you to be stuck from a single decision you regret)."

I would think that the way it will be limited will be a combination of not being able to respec mid-dungeon and some form of cost, otherwise even if it is only when not in dungeons it would still be considered unlimited respecing (unlimited = you could respec 10 times in a row with no penalty to you).

The key point is that max level characters will have a chance to earn at-will respecs. This implies that most, if not all of the restrictions in place will lift once you hit max level.

And lets just remember, hitting max level in MMO's has been the sign of 'starting' the main content, so I would not be surprised if several dungeons and most raids are tuned towards having all of your talent points already.

malloc31
09-02-2015, 08:17 AM
The key point is that max level characters will have a chance to earn at-will respecs. This implies that most, if not all of the restrictions in place will lift once you hit max level.

And lets just remember, hitting max level in MMO's has been the sign of 'starting' the main content, so I would not be surprised if several dungeons and most raids are tuned towards having all of your talent points already.

"It will be possible to achieve at-will respeccing with max level characters"

It never says they will be free, just at will.

Xenavire
09-02-2015, 09:37 AM
"It will be possible to achieve at-will respeccing with max level characters"

It never says they will be free, just at will.

And I never said 'free' either. I specifically said "I don't think the cost will be insane, or they would have mentioned it." I believe that a max level character should have a reasonable chance to respec when needed.

malloc31
09-02-2015, 10:43 AM
And I never said 'free' either. I specifically said "I don't think the cost will be insane, or they would have mentioned it." I believe that a max level character should have a reasonable chance to respec when needed.

even if the cost is low, what is the benefit of having to pay it over just turning on and off hard mode options pre-battle? They can literally make hard mode effects to have the exact same effects as any effects they could add as talents. They could even have a hard mode where you didn't gain any benefits from talents if they wanted.

BenStoll
09-02-2015, 11:46 AM
Hey everyone :)

As always, so much intelligent discourse and so much I want to respond to but it would be irresponsible for me to do a comprehensive job of that right now :( (after all, you'd presumably rather me help get PvE out the door than just talk and collect feedback on it all day ;D)

Here is what I can say, sadly being able to only skim some ice-berg tips:

-We have spent oodles of time on the re-speccing "issue" (in simple terms, trying to solve the difficult task of making three things get along with each other: 1) the desire for choice to be meaningful and have impact 2) the desire to be somewhat flexible and not condemned forever because you thought you would like the Divine Altar talent and realized you hated it like half a game after you took it 3) a world where players don't have both a) so much flexibility and b) so much optimization to be gained through re-speccing that they feel obligated to CONSTANTLY re-spec their character to fit the situation.

I believe we finally cracked this nut, and I guess we'll see if I'm right when it all comes out :D


-I want PvE to be awesome for everyone, and that covers a huge range of players. As someone said, I do think campaign launch will bring the best new player experience to Hex. However, there will be many highly skilled players seeking a challenge just as there will be many brand new players trying to figure out how threshold works.

I can't talk about our plans for this, and have read a ton of suggestions (many of which very closely resemble stuff we have in store), but rest assured that the issue of tailoring many things, and specifically your difficulty, is being attacked from MANY different angles. There will be many different ways to increase your difficulty, allowing a decent bit of granularity to how far you want to push it as well.

Now, it isn't simply enough to allow a skillful, challenge-seeking player the option to play the campaign on a harder setting, especially in a game that clearly returns actual value to you for your time spent with it like Hex does. We need to help you rationalize the "value proposition" piece of it to your head too--as "player seeking a challenge" is very often also "player who at least has some sense of value." I would hate for a skillful player to conclude that he/she was losing too much value playing the game in the way that was more fun for them.

So, rest assured that if you want to make your experience harder in various ways (you will have various ways to choose from, whether they're subtle and implicit and minor, or clear and explicit and major!), you will be able to do so and you will be rewarded for it. I don't think this always takes a lot--and fortunately not, otherwise our more casual players might begin to be irritated about it--just enough to compensate you for choosing a harder experience that is challenging for you, and for a lot of players a badge of honor has its own value that can go a long way as well.

I can jump into the discussion in a more detailed way somewhere down the line once we have more talking points :D

Ok goodbye!

malloc31
09-02-2015, 11:54 AM
Thanks for the explanations Ben, always glad to hear you guys are always listening to us, and can't wait to be able to try it all out!

Kilo24
09-02-2015, 01:10 PM
Thanks for the update, Ben. I hope that this discussion has been helpful to you guys.

Xenavire
09-02-2015, 05:08 PM
Ben, as long as the healer (Cleric) actually has enough talents to play a heavy healing deck, I'll be set. :p

WolfCrypt
09-02-2015, 05:13 PM
Ben, as long as the healer (Cleric) actually has enough talents to play a heavy healing deck, I'll be set. :p

I have similar hopes. I want my talents to emulate various arcetypes like briarpatch.

sukebe
09-03-2015, 01:29 AM
I like the idea of having free talents that apply a class specific negative and give farming advantages. I think some of them should be fairly generic (like -x starting health etc) and that these should be fairly low on the talent tree. The higher level free farming talents should be the ones that give minuses that are aimed more at the class itself. like -1 starting hand size for mages (assuming they like larger hand sizes) or give thematic banes that start in our decks. These talents should give better farming boosts than the low level generic farming talents since their effects are designed to be more limiting to the class that is taking them.

Just a couple of thoughts on the subject, I am sure they can be further refined :-) as long as it is not too terribly expensive i see no reason to fear "having" to take these talents. If you plan on doing a lot of farming, choose these talents. If you find that you need to deactivate them for a raid then pay the price and just plan a farming session or three to make up the cost (my farming sessions tend to be pretty long so that is what I am basing this on. if you only farm for an hour two, multiply the sessions I mention by 3 to 4 :-) )

Thanks for replying in this thread Ben, input from Hex employees, however vague it must unfortunately be, is always appreciated :-)

bootlace
09-03-2015, 06:42 AM
Interesting discussion going on here, I almost missed it!

I want to share two thoughts/opinions on this matter:

-Gold bonus, item drop bonus and XP bonus I believe should be tacked on to equipment.

We already know from these kind of dungeon grinding games that item drops is one of the huge motivators to play the game. We also saw that as soon as everyone got their Arena equipment, they pretty much stopped playing. Equipment flood is a huge problem and even with a way to turn those into crafting materials, I believe it's always going to be a problem. The way to solve this is to have these equipment drop with random bonus stats (in similar fashion to Diablo). The bonus stats can be as simple as just having gold,magic, XP bonus but could also be expanded to have a few other meta bonuses as well. This would TREMENDOUSLY increase replay value of dungeons, and give dedicated PvE players a ton of ways to min-max their characters and gear beyond just running the optimal netdeck. For the non hardcore players, missing out on a few % of gold or XP bonus wouldn't be a huge deal. This would make getting even a common equipment you have 86 copies exciting again as you're hoping for a god roll on the bonus abilities to replace your other ones.

-Rewards should scale with Difficulty..

One of the biggest weaknesses of Arena right now is that it's way too easy and largely favors rush decks. There's really no thinking behind playing anymore as you try to simply steamroll the opponent as fast as possible. I want to be forced into playing some really crazy/fringe cards or super control type of deck because of how hard the opponent is. I want to be playing PvE like this on a consistent basis, not just for some sleeve and not as a one off to tick off an achievement. So I really hope the rewards justify the extra time/skill required here and the rewards scale with difficulty (again, similar to Diablo and the torment difficulties). I can't imagine a skilled player really enjoying content that's been balanced to be accesible to newbies beyond the first few runs.

I got a sense from Ben's post that scaling the rewards too much for difficulty would irritate the casuals and they're going to refrain from rewarding players too much. But first I think the skilled players should be catered to here AND I think the casuals should also have something to look forward to beyond just having Arena or Dungeon X on clear status in normal mode. They might be upset initially the rewards they're getting isn't as grand as those of skilled players but that will motivate them to get better and to improve their play and to build their collection.

Perhaps combine the equipment with bonus stats idea above with this difficulty setting: equipment with bonuses only drop from harder modes and the range ceiling gets higher the harder the difficulty.

These are two things that I think would benefit everything from the economy, to loot excitement feelings, to incentive for even the most skilled and hardcore players to keep playing.

WolfCrypt
09-03-2015, 08:17 AM
I agree with the scale part but I rather have an equipment that makes a card broke and makes me feel epic using it's equip only effect then having random bonuses. Why is everyone comparing pve to Daiblo anyway? I'm pretty sure I've seen like three posts or so in this thread going on bout hex and diablo. As far as I can gather D3/2/1 is a top down hack and slash and has an incredibly bad economy and is also pay to play. So I don't get why everyone wants Hex to emulate Diablo.

Xenavire
09-03-2015, 08:29 AM
We can't forget that the rewards (barring sleeves) can be sold, so players can 'earn' those items via the AH, without ever having to set foot there. So any ire that new players would have towards skilled players would be over the value/amount of loot, and not over exclusive items.

I do think that the value issue is unavoidable (due to the nature of our market), so I think the best answer is to have the same number of total drops, but change the loot tables in the hard mode. The harder mode would drop some of the same, more rare/powerful loot as the normal mode, at a slightly higher rate, and there would be some exclusive pieces of equipment/mercs, as well as potentially sleeves.

I do think that would be the best way to cater to the more skilled players.

Oh. And raids - doing them with less than 3 players should scale the rewards for the missing person/s.

darkwonders
09-03-2015, 08:39 AM
I agree with the scale part but I rather have an equipment that makes a card broke and makes me feel epic using it's equip only effect then having random bonuses. Why is everyone comparing pve to Daiblo anyway? I'm pretty sure I've seen like three posts or so in this thread going on bout hex and diablo. As far as I can gather D3/2/1 is a top down hack and slash and has an incredibly bad economy and is also pay to play. So I don't get why everyone wants Hex to emulate Diablo.

Any game with dungeon crawling aspects will get compared to Diablo. That series is pretty high regarded in terms of dungeon crawling. Even Diablo 3 is great after they fixed it and made it more player friendly. I love playing it on my PS4.

WolfCrypt
09-03-2015, 08:42 AM
Oh well then.. Still I donna bout equipment with looting or in game effects not pertaining to cards I feel like equipment buffing cards be Hex equivalent to ATK +12 INT+25 etc.

Xenavire
09-03-2015, 08:47 AM
Oh well then.. Still I donna bout equipment with looting or in game effects not pertaining to cards I feel like equipment buffing cards be Hex equivalent to ATK +12 INT+25 etc.

The comparisons and suggestions have nothing to do with the effects on Hex's equipment, only where and how (and how hard it is) to acquire them.

Imagine our current mirrorblade being moved from Arena to 'Briarpatch Village - Hard mode'. That is the sort of thing people are looking for.

WolfCrypt
09-03-2015, 08:55 AM
Is briar patch an offcial thing or you just using one of my race specific obsessions to clarify? :P

BenStoll
09-03-2015, 09:00 AM
Ben, as long as the healer (Cleric) actually has enough talents to play a heavy healing deck, I'll be set. :p

I've seen you say as much a number of times now :D I am definitely anxious to see your reaction :)

WolfCrypt
09-03-2015, 09:03 AM
I've seen you say as much a number of times now :D I am definitely anxious to see your reaction :)

I'm more concerned with each race/class being unique. Only Elf warlocks create plant gore zombie thingies and only Coyotle Warlocks mix necromancy with shapeshifting. So I hope to see talents (and hell yes artwork!!) reflect the race styles defined in flavor text.

rjselzler
09-03-2015, 09:09 AM
Ben, as long as the healer (Cleric) actually has enough talents to play a heavy healing deck, I'll be set. :p

Agree! I am hoping for a raid encounter where one of the three players pretty much has to be a dedicated healer to be able to win. I am confident that they can emulate traditional MMO aspects in Hex PvE (especially raids) because Cryptozoic did such a great job with this in their physical WoW tcg.

I have two other friends who are pretty much waiting for PvE to drop and are crazy stoked about raids. Essentially, it would butter my grits to see an encounter where Deck A had to survive (tank), while Deck B tried to keep him alive (healer) long enough for Deck C to go off with some stupid, game-winning combo (DPS). Should every encounter be that? I don't think so, but I would like to see the MMO Trinity concept goofed on in a few raids at least. Such interactive game-play would also satisfy my group's requirement for social, real-time, cooperative play.

TL;DR: I am hype for PvE. ;)

WolfCrypt
09-03-2015, 09:10 AM
I'd probably be the DPS kinda dude lol I only do range chars. So if rangers warlocks and mages have to work fast then okie dokie.

hitchslap88
09-03-2015, 03:15 PM
I've seen you say as much a number of times now :D I am definitely anxious to see your reaction :)

Wait, are you anxious or eager? I think the smiley face means eager... I hope so! I'd like to heal as well.

WolfCrypt
09-03-2015, 03:20 PM
You two heal the crap out of me I'll summon five hundred troops due to my warlock talents.

@ Hitch/Xen

Yoss
09-03-2015, 06:04 PM
Are we still allowed more than one alt per account, last time I checked it was yes?
We've been told that Hex will not encourage people to make more than one account (and violate the ToS). That means we need to be able to have many alt characters (at least 48 to cover all possible combos of race/class).


Why is everyone comparing pve to Daiblo anyway? I'm pretty sure I've seen like three posts or so in this thread going on bout hex and diablo. As far as I can gather D3/2/1 is a top down hack and slash and has an incredibly bad economy and is also pay to play. So I don't get why everyone wants Hex to emulate Diablo.
I agree. Diablo is a horrible thing to compare with. D3 had to change itself to a non-economy in order to keep the loot grind fun. Hex will never be able to do that (it is and always will be TCG not CCG). Hex therefore needs to focus on the things that differentiate World of Warcraft from Diablo, and that's not the loot grind.

WolfCrypt
09-03-2015, 06:09 PM
Well WoW seems to have a lot of lore even a server for lore so...

Xenavire
09-04-2015, 05:54 AM
I've seen you say as much a number of times now :D I am definitely anxious to see your reaction :)

Well if you want direct feedback, let me know where to contact you, and the minute I can first take a look at the skills (if by preview) or play (by the content being ready) I will let you know what I think. :)

(I do hope the talents have a better offering than the cards we have seen in sets 1 through 3. The best 'healing' card of them all is Sight of the Sun, and while that is my favourite Hex card, it has always seemed more of a pseudo-ramp card first, healing card second, due to the restriction of needing to spend resources before you can heal. We also need a more solid and playable wincon than Incantations, Ozawa, or Ascension. Those are all brilliant if things go just right, but if things go sour they can be deader than dead.)

All that said, I do wish I was able to sit in with you and give you pointers, because I am absolutely obsessed with the healer role in games, and often I will simply walk away from a game if I feel their healers are lacking the qualities I am looking for (so I am fairly confident I could help you design some varied and interesting healing talents.)

Looking forward to seeing what you have on offer! :p

WolfCrypt
09-04-2015, 05:59 AM
Well if you want direct feedback, let me know where to contact you, and the minute I can first take a look at the skills (if by preview) or play (by the content being ready) I will let you know what I think. :)

(I do hope the talents have a better offering than the cards we have seen in sets 1 through 3. The best 'healing' card of them all is Sight of the Sun, and while that is my favourite Hex card, it has always seemed more of a pseudo-ramp card first, healing card second, due to the restriction of needing to spend resources before you can heal. We also need a more solid and playable wincon than Incantations, Ozawa, or Ascension. Those are all brilliant if things go just right, but if things go sour they can be deader than dead.)

All that said, I do wish I was able to sit in with you and give you pointers, because I am absolutely obsessed with the healer role in games, and often I will simply walk away from a game if I feel their healers are lacking the qualities I am looking for (so I am fairly confident I could help you design some varied and interesting healing talents.)

Looking forward to seeing what you have on offer! :p

I love bards so maybe an Elf cleric will emulate one lol. But you'll quit Hex if you don't like the cleric tree? Haha you've invested more time in this then most people on forums :P

Quantius
09-04-2015, 06:11 AM
-Rewards should scale with Difficulty..

One of the biggest weaknesses of Arena right now is that it's way too easy and largely favors rush decks. There's really no thinking behind playing anymore as you try to simply steamroll the opponent as fast as possible. I want to be forced into playing some really crazy/fringe cards or super control type of deck because of how hard the opponent is. I want to be playing PvE like this on a consistent basis, not just for some sleeve and not as a one off to tick off an achievement. So I really hope the rewards justify the extra time/skill required here and the rewards scale with difficulty (again, similar to Diablo and the torment difficulties). I can't imagine a skilled player really enjoying content that's been balanced to be accesible to newbies beyond the first few runs.

I got a sense from Ben's post that scaling the rewards too much for difficulty would irritate the casuals and they're going to refrain from rewarding players too much. But first I think the skilled players should be catered to here AND I think the casuals should also have something to look forward to beyond just having Arena or Dungeon X on clear status in normal mode. They might be upset initially the rewards they're getting isn't as grand as those of skilled players but that will motivate them to get better and to improve their play and to build their collection.

Perhaps combine the equipment with bonus stats idea above with this difficulty setting: equipment with bonuses only drop from harder modes and the range ceiling gets higher the harder the difficulty.

These are two things that I think would benefit everything from the economy, to loot excitement feelings, to incentive for even the most skilled and hardcore players to keep playing.

Very much in agreement with this. Much like boss encounters in 3D MMO's not all roles perform well on every fight. Sometimes melee is sub-par, sometimes ranged, sometimes those who have burst instead of sustained dps, certain types of tanks, etc. I would like to see PvE at a place where different encounters favor different deck styles, so while it doesn't become impossible with any certain type of deck, a fast aggro deck would really have to work hard on some encounters vs just winning by turn 4-6 without even trying (aka current arena).

I really can't wait for the campaign, I stopped caring about "PvP" in CCG's years ago and this is what I'm looking forward to spending my time with in HEX.

bootlace
09-04-2015, 06:26 AM
We've been told that Hex will not encourage people to make more than one account (and violate the ToS). That means we need to be able to have many alt characters (at least 48 to cover all possible combos of race/class).

They've also repeatedly said that they want players to make important lasting decisions so the race/class combination might be one of them...I really doubt we get 48 character slots.



I agree. Diablo is a horrible thing to compare with. D3 had to change itself to a non-economy in order to keep the loot grind fun. Hex will never be able to do that (it is and always will be TCG not CCG). Hex therefore needs to focus on the things that differentiate World of Warcraft from Diablo, and that's not the loot grind.

World of Warcraft's loot system is entirely based on the premise that it's a Bind on Pickup system (which Hex won't emulate either) so that's not a good example either.

Instead of looking at other games for clues of what worked and what didn't, maybe it's a better approach to analyze what's currently happened (with Arena) and try to deal with any issues that we might have noticed. Unfortunately I have no idea what improvements are coming with dungeons/raids and the general PvE campaign so I have to analyze it from the perspective of what we know from Arena (let me note that all of the below is probably not fair 'criticism' since Arena was only an early incarnation of a small fraction of the general PvE vision and I'm sure most of this is already known and probably addressed by the HXE team).

1) Loot drops were way too high. Especially legendary 'chase' items. This has been noticed and supposedly fixed so I won't dwell on it.

2) The supply of common/uncommon/rare equipment that drops far exceeds the amount of demand that will ever be present for it. You could also reduce the drop rate of commons/uncommons/rares as well but then what are you going to reward players with? Huge variety of drops would work if we were in a BoP system but due to the AH creating an efficient trading platform, drop variety won't solve it by itself.

The solution left is either A) using the crafting system to take a bunch of equipment out of the market - preferably combining multitudes of the same equipment to create a better version of it (or else if equipment is simply limited to being a crafting material, that's not exciting either) or B) allow for different version of the same equipment to drop which is what I suggested.

3) Aggro decks dominate because you're trying to maximize speed at the cost of pretty much everything else. The preferred solution here is of course making the AI and their decks good enough that aggro decks simply won't always survive but even under those conditions the fastest version of a control deck will always be preferred. HXE might need to promote and reward things such as consistency (maybe increase rewards substantially for perfect dungeon runs or hard versions where your only given a single life.) It's really important that reward/value conscious players are not forced into playing rush aggro decks, I hope this is being addressed.

4) Replay value isn't really there. Apart from the challenges (and to a small degree the question of which bosses you're going to get), Arena plays really similarly from run to run. This isn't much of a problem in other games because even if it's the same boss and same abilities every fight can feel different due to all the different variables in a 3D action game. In a TCG the only thing that creates variance is the random card draws and resource system. Even plain difficulty modes (like no rares/legendaries allowed) will eventually create a stale gaming experience after you've figured out the optimal netdeck.

I think they can make use of the digital space to create dynamic/unexpected gaming experiences beyond the first run. For example changing decklists, much more prevalent and impactful 'game challenges', the introduction of random 'dungeon challenges', a 'random hardmode' which picks one of the random 'hard' stipulations are just a few of the things that can be done to make every run interesting, even if it's your 100th run of the same dungeon.

5) Finally this isn't really a problem but something I would personally like to see: diversity encouraged in collections. What's the point in earning all those equipments/cards in the game if we never have to use them. I've always thought that the PvE end game is having a huge collection of equipment/mercenaries and cards of course that puts you in optimal condition to shine whatever the next quest/challenge/dungeon/raid/event might be.

Even something as simple as a random weekly quest with random missions like "Defeat any dungeon with a deck consisting of only Shin'hare" would not only give players a diverse playing experience but would keep a nice floor on all the items in the game since you never know what cards/equip/mercs you might need.

I could go on but I think this post is long enough as it is. I welcome any alternative solutions to problems I've listed above or thoughts on why what I've stated are not actual problems.

WolfCrypt
09-04-2015, 07:17 AM
I personally don't want to see 'random challenges' why I get so frustrated with Arena.. "Bout to win" "Oh I just decided to give your foe an extra turn :P" And then they summon eight units and kill me cuz even the ones I block are too little to survive. I would really be annoyed if I had to be on pins and needles every dungeon for rest of my playing hex on whether or not a random challenge going to pop up and instantly kill me because it drastically changes the situation. That's not fun. It's fine in Arena because of what it is but if every dungeon has that it'll be extremely irritating. And with someone who gets frustrated easily the random chance of making a difficulr level ten times harder just does not appeal. So I may be short and I apologize but most of that stuff in your post I'm we'll see on but 'random challenges' just instantly bugged me.

Quantius
09-04-2015, 07:39 AM
2) The supply of common/uncommon/rare equipment that drops far exceeds the amount of demand that will ever be present for it.

3) Aggro decks dominate because you're trying to maximize speed at the cost of pretty much everything else. The preferred solution here is of course making the AI and their decks good enough that aggro decks simply won't always survive but even under those conditions the fastest version of a control deck will always be preferred. HXE might need to promote and reward things such as consistency (maybe increase rewards substantially for perfect dungeon runs or hard versions where your only given a single life.) It's really important that reward/value conscious players are not forced into playing rush aggro decks, I hope this is being addressed.

4) Replay value isn't really there.

5) Finally this isn't really a problem but something I would personally like to see: diversity encouraged in collections.


2. A crafting system would be great, part of it could be breaking excess cards/equip to dust for extended art and another could be like a Horadric cube of sorts where you combine various items for "recipe only" equip items, basically items that don't drop during play but must be crafted. i.e. A special Shin'hare PvE card/equip/gem that can only be crafted via some recipe. Stuff like that.

3. I think the solution is to make encounters that are extremely weak against certain deck types and extremely strong against others, if these encounters all exist in the same space (a dungeon/campaign) then there's no way there will be an optimal deck because there is no aggro/combo/control/midrange/burn hybrid that does all things optimally - and if such a deck exists, then what you have is a design problem.

Another solution is to incorporate "phases" on bosses. Like their hero power changes a few times mid-fight and in some cases, selected at random so even if you're playing "the best farming deck" you run the risk of losing. I don't think "perfect runs" should be held up as the goal.

4. For replay value, I'd like to see a "living world" concept in which new bosses show up in varying permutations and old ones rotate back in with new cards. Let's say the community defeats a certain boss X number of times, that boss goes into hiding and a new one takes it's place possibly requiring a re-tune of decks. But then Boss Y is defeated and the old Boss X comes back, but this time with some new tricks. So having a rotating pool of bosses who switch up their cards and can show up in a mixed up manner can create a lot of replay value.

Another idea is to add modifiers like "Orc troops deal 1 less damage" "Shin'hare hoppers cannot be summoned" "Spiderlings get -1/-1" "Actions opponent plays get cost +1" etc. And these modifiers could be randomized like elite packs in Diablo. So you could get a boss with some crazy combination of 2-4 modifiers on any given step of a campaign/dungeon.

5. Agree about diversity in collections, but I think with my suggestions above it would greatly encourage diversity, esp in regards to collecting crafting components.

bootlace
09-04-2015, 07:48 AM
4. For replay value, I'd like to see a "living world" concept in which new bosses show up in varying permutations and old ones rotate back in with new cards.

I like all of your ideas. The "living world" thing sounds especially attractive and something that would really bring life to that PvE globe...I want different things happening across the PvE landscape dynamically that gives me interesting options on where to play when I log on instead of the same ol' "let's grind the latest dungeon over and over again".

People screaming with excitement in the PvE chat about some rare exotic boss that has some really interesting loot table showing up in Dungeon X sounds over the past hour and the rush to go and quickly build a deck to take him down before he disappears sounds very fun.

bootlace
09-04-2015, 08:03 AM
I personally don't want to see 'random challenges' why I get so frustrated with Arena.. "Bout to win" "Oh I just decided to give your foe an extra turn :P" And then they summon eight units and kill me cuz even the ones I block are too little to survive. I would really be annoyed if I had to be on pins and needles every dungeon for rest of my playing hex on whether or not a random challenge going to pop up and instantly kill me because it drastically changes the situation. That's not fun. It's fine in Arena because of what it is but if every dungeon has that it'll be extremely irritating. And with someone who gets frustrated easily the random chance of making a difficulr level ten times harder just does not appeal. So I may be short and I apologize but most of that stuff in your post I'm we'll see on but 'random challenges' just instantly bugged me.

All that stuff I mentioned is for people who find no challenge (and hence fun) in grinding the same dungeon over and over again. If you're cool with running the same default version of the dungeon (which sounds like the difficulty will be tuned to be accessible to newbies) then you're free to run it over and over again. But if you're looking for a bigger and more exciting challenge, I think there should be a mode that should keep these types of players engaged (and of course an appropriate reward should be given for the extra skill/time requirement).

WolfCrypt
09-04-2015, 08:23 AM
All that stuff I mentioned is for people who find no challenge (and hence fun) in grinding the same dungeon over and over again. If you're cool with running the same default version of the dungeon (which sounds like the difficulty will be tuned to be accessible to newbies) then you're free to run it over and over again. But if you're looking for a bigger and more exciting challenge, I think there should be a mode that should keep these types of players engaged (and of course an appropriate reward should be given for the extra skill/time requirement).

Oh! I'm sorry I kinda got offended by thinking bout Arena which grates on my nerves badly with random challenges it's kinda hard. I'm a casual player and sometimes I go for hard stuff and it often is 50/50 whether it works or not. Sorry I kinda snapped.

Quantius
09-04-2015, 09:07 AM
Oh! I'm sorry I kinda got offended by thinking bout Arena which grates on my nerves badly with random challenges it's kinda hard. I'm a casual player and sometimes I go for hard stuff and it often is 50/50 whether it works or not. Sorry I kinda snapped.

Do you mean the random "bonus plays" that just pop up in the middle of a match? Like Soothing Breeze + Oracle Song, Headless Dude, Mastery of Time?

Those are kind of annoying because they sometimes create wild swings in game state that you can't recover from. I agree that type of randomness is 'too much' and is a bad thing. A challenge is something that you should have to try to overcome, but the "challenges" in arena either have little to no impact or they create an absurd situation. It's that either/or scenario that makes RNG problematic.

bootlace
09-04-2015, 10:12 AM
The type of challenges that I like are when there's something that's beneficial/harmful for BOTH sides. For example the Cerebral Fulmination Challenge, or the Sabotage in both decks, or the 'double cast a spell in your hand' type of stuff.

Quantius
09-04-2015, 10:42 AM
Yeah, and inferno too. I don't mind when it impacts both sides, plus those are all slow cooker challenges.

Not like a Mastery of Time on a Sniper of Gawaine who goes HAM on you over the course of two turns while you just sit there knowing his bonus turn will be a Legionnaire that wipes your board.

Yoss
09-04-2015, 10:46 AM
They've also repeatedly said that they want players to make important lasting decisions so the race/class combination might be one of them...I really doubt we get 48 character slots.
Which class/race to play first is still important. If you burn 100 hours on a character, that's something you can never get back, no matter how many character slots they give you. Time is a resource, and it's the resource of highetst import. Along those lines, they can make story choices that you cannot reverse on a given character; that makes them important and lasting because you'd have to completely start a new character if you wanted to see the other path. All this can be done without artificial account limitations. Also, I'd be totally fine if they charge gold cost (or even plat) in order to buy more character slots.

I agree with pretty much all the rest of your post.


"please don't make it too hard"
I agree that there should be a reasonable amount of "easy mode" content, but there must be hard modes and difficult content areas where a newbie can't even survive on "normal" mode. As Ben said, Hex will have a broad play base with diverse needs and desires.

WolfCrypt
09-04-2015, 12:42 PM
I agree that there should be a reasonable amount of "easy mode" content, but there must be hard modes and difficult content areas where a newbie can't even survive on "normal" mode. As Ben said, Hex will have a broad play base with diverse needs and desires.

Now don't get me wrong here. (not offended don't you love a lack of context in text?) I do hard stuff from time to time its often post game stuff after I beat storyline. Sometimes like when I was playing Grand Chase I'd do a hard mode for fun. What I'm asking that it be easier on decks that aren't rush rush and bam. I like slow stratigies and I do very well just arena kinda suvks for that sorta thing. Also it's rather hard to get loot. I am cursed and constantly run into Corey and his random stuff just kills my stratagy so I can't do t2 anymore...

Xenavire
09-04-2015, 07:52 PM
I love bards so maybe an Elf cleric will emulate one lol. But you'll quit Hex if you don't like the cleric tree? Haha you've invested more time in this then most people on forums :P

I wouldn't quit, but I have walked away from many MMO's after finding the healing less than satisfying. Hell, I left WoW because they kept brutalising the Holy spec priest while buffing Disc, and Holy was the only one with an interesting toolset for me. I haven't been tempted to return yet.

I would be extremely vocal if the clerics on Hex were lacking in the healing department. If I cannot spend at least 50% of my max level talent points on enhancing my healing, I will be rather put out. (From what I understand, all I am asking for is ~10 unique talents that interact with healing. Doesn't seem like a big ask. :p)

Yoss
09-04-2015, 08:07 PM
I demand a shrubbery!