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View Full Version : Hopes for next PvE reveal?



Vorsa
08-22-2015, 11:28 AM
I'm not setting expectations of incoming PvE reveals too high - as we've just had 2 consecutive weeks embellishing the lovely stuff seen in the convention build - but if there were to be another preview soon, what would you be hoping for?

- - - - -

My pick would be character portraits; obviously a very shallow feature, but on the plus side that means it's not got technical obstacles - 84 art hyperlinks & I'd be ecstatic! :p

Significant for me personally though as character art will play a role in my race/class combo decisions, which in turn will sway which cards I prioritize for honing race-centric decks and EA treatment now (my Human collection is done).

I'm 99% sure my 'main' will be a Human male - so that one gets first dibs on class - and I know my (possibly only) Underworld character will be a Dwarf (because I'll want to play Underworld-only campaign content + I'm smitten with my Slaughtergear deck).
All other characters are up for grabs, so the more glimpses the better!

yoyogod
08-22-2015, 11:31 AM
Personally, I want to know what else is coming with the patch: Guilds? Raids? Kickstarter exclusive PVE cards? rest of the equipment for Kickstarter AA cards? Crafting?

Salverus
08-22-2015, 11:40 AM
I want more info on mercenaries.
maybe already some of their skills so we can plan ahead for which to buy.

WolfCrypt
08-22-2015, 04:32 PM
I'd rather we see rough drafts of all six class skill tree's first.

Lafoote
08-22-2015, 04:47 PM
I want more info on mercenaries.
maybe already some of their skills so we can plan ahead for which to buy.

Definitely this. Not so much for hoarding purposes, but because we've received very little info since they we're fundamentally changed. I'd like to know details about how they will function, with maybe one or two examples.

Trothael
08-22-2015, 04:47 PM
Skill trees, maps, lore highlights.

Aradon
08-22-2015, 04:51 PM
Light reveals: names of dungeons, plans for non-dungeon areas (such as the panorama cities), race/class combo talents
Heavier reveals: Full skill trees, full mercenary details, crafting details.

I imagine we'll start hearing about some of the early dungeons we'll get not too long from now, but I don't expect much more information for a long time. There's a lot of simultaneous balancing going on with dungeon difficulties and champion/mercenary development that's going to bog progress down until at least one of them is nailed down and cemented. It doesn't sound like skill trees are really solidified yet to me, so we're probably still a good ways off.

Spiredore
08-22-2015, 08:11 PM
I'd love to hear about 'other encounters'. We know broadly what the dungeon experience is going to be like, but it looks like there'll be other things for us to do with our Heroes than just run through the campaign, and even braod details about those would be interesting.

poizonous
08-22-2015, 08:28 PM
Im glad everyone is pumped about PvE, I wish I could get pumped about it. My whole gripe about it is the lack of AI. Without a better AI system I just dont see dungeons being hard. And I dont want to see dungeons turn into Arena where all you do is run aggro because AI cant do math

WWKnight
08-22-2015, 08:31 PM
The AI is as bad as it is BECAUSE of dungeons. Remember, Arena used to be a lot harder. Its dumbed down state came from the Set 3 patch. I assume the only reason it hasn't been fixed is because they are working on making the dungeons good.

At least I hope that's the reason. Otherwise there is a fair bit to answer for...

poizonous
08-22-2015, 08:34 PM
Remember, Arena used to be a lot harder.

Sorry this has me shaking my head... Yes the AI got smarter.... but to say it was harder.... now that is a real stretch. I have done maybe 50 arena runs and only have like 7 runs not perfect

theghost32
08-22-2015, 10:44 PM
I'd like to hear more about cities and how theyll affect the pve experience and if they ll be in the pve they launch next

Salverus
08-22-2015, 11:58 PM
Sorry this has me shaking my head... Yes the AI got smarter.... but to say it was harder.... now that is a real stretch. I have done maybe 50 arena runs and only have like 7 runs not perfect

the biggest difference in AI since set3 launch is their blocking.
if you were swinging lethal damage before, it would always block the big guys to survive another turn. Now it just blocks a small 1/1 unit while your bigger guys still do lethal damage.
Also things like crush, double/triple damage and the order of blocking are still not taken into account which can easily abused.
e.g. if enemy attacks with a 6/6 and you block with a 0/7 first and then 6 1/1 troops, all your troops survive.

poizonous
08-23-2015, 12:06 AM
Also Time Rippling his own troop just to replay it and it have no effect on the game. There are tons of things that need to happen to AI before PvE can be considered fun for me, maybe im in the minority (honestly doubt it though) but to me, fun PvE is challenging

Voormas
08-23-2015, 12:33 AM
I don't expect that Guilds will be the next thing that will be talked about but I really look forward to hearing about them anyway - someone in the community not long ago was talking about how Guild Wars 2 lets you be a member of multiple guilds (while only "representing" one) and that idea just blew my mind, but considering some of the features I expect guilds will bring along (player-run tournaments / etc) along with the fact that guild membership is an MMO staple makes me really excited for the possibilities and PvE would be the perfect time to add that feature

WolfCrypt
08-23-2015, 12:35 AM
Those guys in Arena are easy..? I'm a loser....

Abidar
08-23-2015, 04:05 AM
Those guys in Arena are easy..? I'm a loser....

Maybe easy isn't the right word, but predictable in their errors. Like not taking lethal minions, crush, and damage taken before combat into account before doing it's blocking math. It also seems to not always block incoming game ending damage if the minion to block would die as a result. It will often do other weird things like inner conflicting it's own troops, bouncing them back to it's hand, and sacrificing clouds before it has accumulated surge counters.

Hadry
08-23-2015, 04:14 AM
I will rather have a more intelligent AI and get rip of the OP cards.
I want to get more info about the mercenarys and classes. Its seems picking the right class/race combo will be important, so i want to know a bitm ore about that.
Also its for a long run, but im hoping for more info about the state of the next patch, what is coming (roughly) and when ( ye i know, its too soon, but one can dream it not so long from now :D).

Khazrakh
08-23-2015, 06:46 AM
Im glad everyone is pumped about PvE, I wish I could get pumped about it. My whole gripe about it is the lack of AI. Without a better AI system I just dont see dungeons being hard. And I dont want to see dungeons turn into Arena where all you do is run aggro because AI cant do math

Sadly I have to agree here.
I'm REALLY looking forward to PVE but all that glorious design is only going to be as good as the AI you are playing.
I've been in the "give it time"-camp for a long while, but the AI didn't notably improve while the Arena is out and as others have pointed out - it even got worse with every patch.
The only way I can see PVE (and Hex with it) fail is because of the horrible AI...

Falaris
08-23-2015, 07:29 AM
There are way too many subtle interactions in TCGs for AI to truly be on par with human ability in card games. They have to increase the difficulty by having more powerful decks. If this isn't an aspect of PvE that you can accept/enjoy, you will not enjoy PvE in this game.

WWKnight
08-23-2015, 09:14 AM
The AI can absolutely be on par with human players. Its simply a matter of designing each encounter with it's own specific AI. I feel that this is something they tried to shortcut with Arena. The perfect example of this is Emberspire Witch encounter. On the test server before Arena released, she seemed to have her own AI that knew her deck was all about the burn. She would use her burns on your face, she would use her charge power.

Then, for whatever reason, she seems to have a generic AI on live, which seems to keep burn spells for removal and doesn't see the value of her charge power any more. Once upon a time, I was terrified of that encounter.

They will not release proper campaigns with these sorts of shortcuts. I am positive each and every encounter will have it's specific AI that knows how to use it's deck and abilities. Cards we play are probably ranked in threat value, and that's how it knows what to remove.

I honestly believe the sad state of the Arena is just a bug that's too low a priority to fix when compared to the actual work they are pushing on the campaigns to get them released.

pyrovoice
08-23-2015, 10:11 AM
The AI can absolutely be on par with human players. Its simply a matter of designing each encounter with it's own specific AI. I feel that this is something they tried to shortcut with Arena. The perfect example of this is Emberspire Witch encounter. On the test server before Arena released, she seemed to have her own AI that knew her deck was all about the burn. She would use her burns on your face, she would use her charge power.

Then, for whatever reason, she seems to have a generic AI on live, which seems to keep burn spells for removal and doesn't see the value of her charge power any more. Once upon a time, I was terrified of that encounter.

They will not release proper campaigns with these sorts of shortcuts. I am positive each and every encounter will have it's specific AI that knows how to use it's deck and abilities. Cards we play are probably ranked in threat value, and that's how it knows what to remove.

I honestly believe the sad state of the Arena is just a bug that's too low a priority to fix when compared to the actual work they are pushing on the campaigns to get them released.

A good AI is more though to make than what you seem thinking. Since the frozen arena was a decoy while waiting the real pve content, they couldn't put too much time in the AI.

And making an AI for each encounter seem like a loooot of work, I hope they can think of something better. But keep in mind that a good AI (aka an AI that is as smart as a human) is nearly impossible to make considering the amount of interaction there is in the game.

WWKnight
08-23-2015, 10:30 AM
AI can learn from playing. That's the goal Hex is striving for. To have an AI that learns the card interactions as it sees humans playing them. So while it may have a ranking of what cards are more dangerous, the more times you use a rather "low ranked" card as part of a combo ro something, the more the AI will learn to respect the threat and prioritise it appropriately.

They have the best in the industry working on it, so I have no choice but to put my faith in the proper PvE experience being what they say it will be.

Saeijou
08-23-2015, 02:42 PM
Lotus garden! :)

poizonous
08-23-2015, 02:56 PM
If you take duels of the planeswalker, planeswalker difficulty is all i expect from the AI here anything better would be bonus but just matching that would suffice for me

Mejis
08-23-2015, 03:54 PM
Sadly I have to agree here.
I'm REALLY looking forward to PVE but all that glorious design is only going to be as good as the AI you are playing.
I've been in the "give it time"-camp for a long while, but the AI didn't notably improve while the Arena is out and as others have pointed out - it even got worse with every patch.
The only way I can see PVE (and Hex with it) fail is because of the horrible AI...

Yeah, agree with this.
I still have hope that we'll see a big boost in AI soon. So I'd love to see a Friday update article about it. Would be great to hear Chris W's thoughts and plans RE: AI.

bizznach
08-23-2015, 05:50 PM
Are campaigns considered dungeons?

Aradon
08-23-2015, 05:53 PM
Are campaigns considered dungeons?

My impression is that the campaign consists of a series of story-driven dungeons that you can follow from the start to the level cap. Probably some raids will be included, as well as any side-quest content they settle on. Basically, some subset of the general PvE content will be deemed 'campaign' based on its relevance to the main plot they are developing.

Obviously I can't see the future, though, so I don't really know anything about Hex.

mudgee01
08-24-2015, 02:56 AM
Give me my 5 gardens! :P

Erukk
08-24-2015, 03:44 AM
If you take duels of the planeswalker, planeswalker difficulty is all i expect from the AI here anything better would be bonus but just matching that would suffice for me

Didn't the devs say they didn't want their AI to cheat though? For them to get anywhere near planewalker difficulty, they would have to either make it so the AI can read your cards or have their decks stacked like it does in that game's more difficult settings.

I wouldn't mind having the decks slowly increase in power across campaign, maybe certain bosses not even having to rely on drawing resources like Eternal Guardian doesn't in the Arena or have strong charge powers to make up for the difference, but I'm not totally sold on the idea of the AI outright cheating yet.

Mejis
08-24-2015, 04:38 AM
Didn't the devs say they didn't want their AI to cheat though? For them to get anywhere near planewalker difficulty, they would have to either make it so the AI can read your cards or have their decks stacked like it does in that game's more difficult settings.

I wouldn't mind having the decks slowly increase in power across campaign, maybe certain bosses not even having to rely on drawing resources like Eternal Guardian doesn't in the Arena or have strong charge powers to make up for the difference, but I'm not totally sold on the idea of the AI outright cheating yet.

I've brought this up before, plus this info could be wrong, but doesn't the Duels AI use quite a sophisticated decision tree:
i.e. it looks at the board state and the cards in its hand, and using some clever algorithm it pretty much thought-plays out all possible scenarios for that turn (and possible the next) and simply picks the best from the decision tree. I remember the devs saying it's not perfect, but the % good play rate is high enough, and they even found it did interesting things that went against what would be considered standard plays.

So, yeah, I'd be totally down with such a system too, but I hope Chris and the team can push it even further.