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fido_one
09-26-2015, 08:41 AM
Hey all,

I posted this w/ a different request in the AH forum, but wanted to send a big flag up for the community:

AoM Primals are trading close to 1100 platinum. Someone is selling them at 1111 with a buyout of 11111.

I fell for it, and am gutted as a result. I don't want to start a debate on the practice, but note that as soon as it happened, the person posted another pack within the minute at the same 1111/11111 rate.

Side note, what, if any, debates have there been on putting commas into the AH figures?

* one quick note, I understand why many people's reaction is 'if they have that much plat in their account let them fall for it'. I ask you to rethink that impulse though, I was upset for about a half an hour about this and I am now over it, still hoewever: realize everyone's situation is different, I had front loaded a solid 75% of my game and relaxing funds for about a year (that includes movies, etc.) on this last platinum push.

** another quick note, while not direct reference I know Hex is aware of it and I'm sure they will seek to remedy the problem as a whole (either with commas, or kangaroos, or what-have-you). I'm pretty sure they can't just slap commas in there and call it a day though. Also: wanted to thank everyone for the kind words and support, ya'll are really quite awesome. Hugs and kisses go out all over to you folks.

*** Update update update. You guys are crazy awesome. I've been getting gifts from people and it's really made me realize that these negative sellers/players are in a small minority of the playbase. There is no other online community this big I have seen that is so relentlessly kind and empathetic. I'm all set on the gifts at this point, and a call out goes to TJ, Kami and CZE who managed to take a difficult week (not due to this sale, just in general) and made it something really positive. I love all of you crazy people.

AdamAoE2
09-26-2015, 08:46 AM
These types of scammers need to be purged from the game. Sorry for your bad luck fido. :(

fido_one
09-26-2015, 08:49 AM
These types of scammers need to be purged from the game. Sorry for your bad luck fido. :(

Yeah, it meant a lot to me, my last investment in Hex in a while due to financial hardship. Still, can't get too upset as there are much worse things going on in the world. My frustration is actually that I remember a debate on this where CZE weighed in and I can't find it because the search function leaves something to be desired* (they all do though, and I'm happy for CZE to focus on other things than forum searches). If someone can find that thread for me where they weighed in it would relieve some anxiety either way.

Gorgol
09-26-2015, 08:58 AM
Wow, thanks for the heads up. It sucks that they got you :(

rwn
09-26-2015, 09:07 AM
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=44111&page=3&p=501062&viewfull=1#post501062
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=44111&page=4&p=501104&viewfull=1#post501104

These might be what you are looking for, I personally agree with the devs that it is entirely your responsibility.

Elwinz
09-26-2015, 09:15 AM
fro most of community its not a deal, who has 11k plat/ :p i know some poeple do but not t that many

fido_one
09-26-2015, 09:16 AM
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=44111&page=3&p=501062&viewfull=1#post501062
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=44111&page=4&p=501104&viewfull=1#post501104

These might be what you are looking for, I personally agree with the devs that it is entirely your responsibility.

Thanks rwn! I was more stressed out knowing there was an answer out there and having to wait until Monday for support to respond.

Every fiber in my being wants to disagree with you as this just happened to me about 20 minutes ago, but I agree with the devs and you. Buyer beware and all of that.

Still, I'd love to hear why we don't have commas in the auction house or some other equivalent. That sounds like I'm pissed but I'm not, it didn't even occur to me why they would be so important until this happened. I'd love to hear a 'we plan on putting them in at some point' or 'this is why we decided not to have them' or help me find a thread I missed on the subject.

rwn, thanks again, that relieved most of my stress on the matter. What were your search terms can I ask?

fido_one
09-26-2015, 09:20 AM
fro most of community its not a deal, who has 11k plat/ :p i know some poeple do but not t that many

This is most of my 2015 budget for Hex and all of my 2016 (I got 20000 plat total) at the moment unless I get a cash flow into my startup 1 year before I have projected (heh!). I had to buy it in one lump sum for a variety of reasons that are just too boring to list. If I have to sell my house than, yeah, I'll throw in a couple extra 20k plat self gifts; I'm trying to not make that happen though.

I am a GK backer, etc. so I can't be too upset. This is definitely a first world problem issue. Still, it's a relative thing, Hex has become a very important refuge for me, a second only to my two mutts (which I have only half the time I'm afraid... but I'll always have you Hex! Always! *creepy stare*). But with the GK benefits and the remaining plat, I'm still sitting pretty until PvE comes out, yadayadayada..

I know I'm sounding like I'm complaining about getting sucked into it, and I am a little bit, but I'm frustrated at myself first and foremost and wanted to flag it to the community in that really, this is a very easy one to fall for given the present AoM primal prices.

rwn
09-26-2015, 09:23 AM
Thanks rwn! I was more stressed out knowing there was an answer out there and having to wait until Monday for support to respond.

Every fiber in my being wants to disagree with you as this just happened to me about 20 minutes ago, but I agree with the devs and you. Buyer beware and all of that.

Still, I'd love to hear why we don't have commas in the auction house or some other equivalent. That sounds like I'm pissed but I'm not, it didn't even occur to me why they would be so important until this happened. I'd love to hear a 'we plan on putting them in at some point' or 'this is why we decided not to have them' or help me find a thread I missed on the subject.

rwn, thanks again, that relieved most of my stress on the matter. What were your search terms can I ask?

Since the search results are ordered in chronological order I just wanted to search "auction house" since I remembered like you that there was a thread about this not long ago. Actually what made me found it was a typo, I searched for "action house" and didn't notice it until I already got the thread and now that I checked it searching for "auction house" doesn't bring it up.

Yoss
09-26-2015, 09:44 AM
I'd love to hear why we don't have commas in the auction house or some other equivalent.
Agree. Seems like a rather simple template update. Wouldn't hurt to use fixed-width font either, at least for pricing UI.

hammer
09-26-2015, 10:00 AM
I agree buyer beware but surely hex can see a repeat pattern of these clowns lisiting at prices obviously meant to trick people in this trap and I think they should be warned accordingly.

Yoss
09-26-2015, 10:04 AM
I agree buyer beware but surely hex can see a repeat pattern of these clowns lisiting at prices obviously meant to trick people in this trap and I think they should be warned accordingly.

Better to just fix the UI so that the trick doesn't work any more. With fixed-width characters and commas for every three digits, it would be very hard to spoof pricing. The inflated ask price would literally stick out like a sore thumb, to the left of all the other prices.

fido_one
09-26-2015, 10:07 AM
Better to just fix the UI so that the trick doesn't work any more. With fixed-width characters and commas for every three digits, it would be very hard to spoof pricing. The inflated ask price would literally stick out like a sore thumb, to the left of all the other prices.

Yes! Yoss as per usual just took what I was trying to say and made a much finer point of it.

+11111

magic_gazz
09-26-2015, 10:07 AM
I agree that its buyer beware, but there is no reason for them not to fix this so its not an issue.

Also 11k plat is not that rare to have, like the OP some people make purchases up front, there are also people who have sold a lot of cards.

fido_one
09-26-2015, 10:11 AM
I agree that its buyer beware, but there is no reason for them not to fix this so its not an issue.

Also 11k plat is not that rare to have, like the OP some people make purchases up front, there are also people who have sold a lot of cards.

Yeah, like I said, it was 75% of my entertainment funds for a good long time and I'm back on the market after many years. So my chances of wooing someone has a very high ratio with if they are a Hex fan or not.

While I love how the community is growing, I don't know anyone into Hex IRL save for some of my ex-employees and yeah, no.

Ertzi
09-26-2015, 10:36 AM
I have recently started to see these AH listings as well. I believe it is not a coincidence that many prices end with a "111". I have seen this so many times now that it has to be intentional. And it is always exactly three or more of the number one.

I am too OCD to ever fall for that myself, but I sympathize with you, fido, and while I will not write here what I think about this behavior, let me just say that the word is used much more in the UK and starts with the third letter of the alphabet.

Yes, the buyer always has the responsibility, but come on, we are better than this. Earn your plat fairly.

fido_one
09-26-2015, 10:38 AM
I agree that its buyer beware, but there is no reason for them not to fix this so its not an issue.
.

I'm with Yoss in that unless we hear otherwise commas and unified spacing is the way to alleviate this. Because while yes, buyer beware, it definitely put a bit of a dark cloud on my long awaited Hex fest today.

And I'm not flagging the issue in general to discuss. I'm simply saying that right now AoM Primals are falling close to this figure so it's REALLY easy to fall for. So be on the lookout for this one and other copy-cats. They may have the right to take advantage of the system, but we have the right to point it out.

As I said in another thread, what is equally upsetting is that I am sure they have justified the 10x increase in their head. That's fine, I get it. But it's still dishonest to a degree and it makes me sad that someone let themselves become a little bit shittier as a person over some plat.

nicosharp
09-26-2015, 11:18 AM
+1 for commas...

Kami
09-26-2015, 11:27 AM
What's your IGN fido_one?

fido_one
09-26-2015, 11:46 AM
What's your IGN fido_one?

Castlenock. I appreciate if you plan on easing the pain as I know you are that type of person Kami, but I'm actually good with it. I'm better off using this as a lesson to enjoy the things that are actually important. While I may be all salty with the seller, my dogs friggin' LOVE HIM/HER as I've been giving them some extra lovin' as a result.

fido_one
09-26-2015, 11:47 AM
Castlenock. I appreciate if you plan on easing the pain as I know you are that type of person Kami, but I'm actually good with it. I'm better off using this as a lesson to enjoy the things that are actually important. While I may be all salty with the seller, my dogs friggin' LOVE HIM/HER as I've been giving them some extra lovin' as a result.

Also, I got a good pull for the sealed VIP, so no more whining from me!

L1ght
09-26-2015, 05:28 PM
You should definitely make a support request with all the details of what happened. I get you may have decided it was your own fault and you have enough that it didn't effect you too badly, but think of the next poor person who gets scammed, possibly losing their entire account. That person will quit the game for good. We need to get rid of intentional scammers like this, we don't want them in this game, and the HEX staff have already shown they are willing and have banned players who know use the AH to deceive. It hurts the game, it results in bad experiences, bad stories being shared and lost customers.

Please report so they can action it.

Lion_Slicer
09-26-2015, 05:43 PM
Seems unfortunately this may be a trending issue since there have been other threads about it recently. While the statements about "personal responsibility" and whatnot are true, I find that somewhat dismissive of the problem.

I've never done any type of programming. Can anyone with a programming background comment on just how "hard" or "easy" it would be to make values display with commas as been suggested several times across the threads? I'm curious how many resources would need to be diverted to change it.

fido_one
09-26-2015, 06:37 PM
I did report it, and I know they are aware of it (simply by posting on the forums, they keep close eyes on these convos). This sort of stuff has always been going on and I would have phrased my warning with a bit less drama if I could do it over again. Half of my enjoyment these days is playing the AH in Hex; I'm not great at it, but it's a damn good bit of fun to have on a side monitor when you've got your head in a project. If there weren't sharks in the mix than it wouldn't be nearly as fun I think.

I'm always very weary on saying how hard something is or is not with an IT related thing, especially software development. Something as simple as a comma change can and does equate to getting the whole team to agree (even if it seems obvious, they have to know it's something to move forward on), making sure it stays within different resolutions, that it doesn't tip a wee thing over that no one notices until they grow 10 times their size and it becomes a major, major issue that they've discovered, after data is recorded, etc. etc.

It's really very impressive how quickly they learned to be a savvy software development shop, as I think the CZE around the time of the Kickstarter would have said 'sure it'll be in there next patch'. Though it's not my bag, I've directed enough software development entities to know two things: A) nothing, absolutely nothing, is as easy as it seems (in IT ops too), and B) I couldn't even get close to a software product this good or polished at this point even with the software and IT management experience background I have... how in the hell did HexEnt do it that fast? Yeah, they've missed their dates by an amazing margin, etc. but really, they've gone from a company with a vision, no software experience and a lot of orphaned code, to a really, really finely tuned digital gaming studio. That's... that's quite an amazing shift when you think about it.

So yeah, I'm sure they talk about this stuff, they are aware, and there are reasons they have for not implementing it yet. Like I said, I could have crafted the OP a bit better, I was still wound up about it. I just don't like changing my OP posts... If I did though it would simply be flagging that someone is duping people on the AH right now sans my stupid woe is me routine.

TJTaylor
09-26-2015, 06:51 PM
It bothers me that people are doing things like this. As someone who does a lot of selling on the market, the last thing I want to see is people shying away from it for fear of being scammed. I do agree it is personal responsibility, but at the same time these guys should not be getting a free pass for what is a blatantly obvious attempt to scam people out of their money. I know that I have done the opposite where I've sold expensive cards for gold instead of plat so I know it is very possible to accidentally post in the wrong currency. But this is not that. It is very easy to see what this person (or these persons) intentions are.

I'm sorry this happened to you fido. I know you said you were fine with it but I'd like to help you. Check your in game mail.

Jemy000
09-26-2015, 08:45 PM
Better to just fix the UI so that the trick doesn't work any more. With fixed-width characters and commas for every three digits, it would be very hard to spoof pricing. The inflated ask price would literally stick out like a sore thumb, to the left of all the other prices.
+1 to this. Just changing the font so 1s aren't smaller than every other character would fix the problem. Yes, buyers should be careful, but the AH also shouldn't help scammers.

CarePackageTV
09-26-2015, 09:08 PM
I guess this might of been said already so sorry if I repeat anything..

honestly I know this might be fair in eyes of some people but id personally class it as ongoing harassment to the community as they are purposely putting them up for sale as 11,111 as it looks like 1,111 and cheaper then anything higher then 1,111. This could also be classed as a form of abuse/exploit using text/numbers ingame to gain/take advantage of players.

spankydonkey
09-27-2015, 01:03 AM
I was looking at AoM Primal prices yesterday, & saw these listed top, 2no:@ 1110/11111.
Very nearly fell for it myself, sorry to see you did!
I'm sure who ever listed them feels very pleased with there conduct!

IronPheasant
09-27-2015, 01:31 AM
Still, I'd love to hear why we don't have commas in the auction house or some other equivalent. That sounds like I'm pissed but I'm not, it didn't even occur to me why they would be so important until this happened. I'd love to hear a 'we plan on putting them in at some point' or 'this is why we decided not to have them' or help me find a thread I missed on the subject.

Just from personal experience, delineators are not a COMPLETELY trivial feature. The schema varies from country to country. France uses .'s instead of ,'s; some places might group by 4 digits instead of 3, just as a couple examples. It requires a call to the OS to see which format is in use.

That said, the reason why it isn't in yet is simple: the developers did/do not understand it's a required feature, and thought it was just a "nice to have" luxury. It's pretty common to overlook very well known but small scale things like this when you're busy. But this is carved in stone:

If your players are putting real money into a game, there must be commas.

I recommend you put in a ticket to ask them to reverse the trade, and if they don't, to quit the game. That's the reasonable capitalist way of resolving defects. Anyone willing to let being ripped off for $100 slide... you guys must be millionaires.

ossuary
09-27-2015, 04:50 AM
Unfortunately, support isn't going to be able to do anything about this (though I believe we've already established that in the thread). That being said, it's ludicrous to me that we don't have commas in the auction house yet... and fixed width font for numbers would be a good idea as well - function is more important than visual appeal in that regard; there's no need for your numbers font to match your word font throughout the rest of the client.

This has come up several times, and your plat and gold totals at the top of the client have already been set to show commas (they didn't use to), so there's no real reason that same change can't be applied to the rest of the client.

tegne
09-27-2015, 05:23 AM
Well I think sometimes you have to go case by case. And I'd like to see this seller investigated and if he has been obviously using font 'exploits' to scam. Then reverse his transactions (which I'm sure can be done). If he has already spent his plat then devide his cards to those scammed of a equivalent plat value. Then ban that scuming mo fo's ass.
Set an example that this kind of behaviour is not welcome.

hammer
09-27-2015, 05:28 AM
Looks like this has worked twice for the trickster within the week a sale at 11111 and an earlier sale at 12111 that's $200 of profit and has been deliberately done to trick people.

Lafoote
09-27-2015, 05:36 AM
As stated before, buyer beware. CZE is equally responsible for providing an environment which minimizes the opportunities for shenanigans. That said, I'm all for banning scammers. If you scam people outside the digital world, the consequences are jail and massive fines. At the very least accounts should be banned. Knock a couple out and announce why. Then this nonsense will surface far less often.

abxolute
09-27-2015, 07:21 AM
i don't have much plat but i sent you some, and yes hex need to do something about this. Although the fault lie with us but its very easy to get visually fooled when it seems your getting something at a cheap price.

juggernaut
09-27-2015, 04:42 PM
Disable posting of auctions with three consecutive "1"s if implementing commas would be non-trivial.

nicosharp
09-27-2015, 05:27 PM
I find it rewarding to be proactively broke in plat.

Eierdotter
09-27-2015, 05:46 PM
if you think you get a sweet deal, where the prize is 20% undercutting the regular price i guess double checking is very important.
be it the 111 trick at ~1k plat stuff
or
undercutting the gold amount but using plat as currency.

i do not see that big of a problem with it, some people are gaming the AH instead of the actual game,
be it by posting deceiving digit numbers
buying low and selling high
buying out all the tabs of certain cards/items and putting them up with twice or thrice the actual value
creating trends (eg. posting a awesome Arena deck using a usually platfloor card, driving the cards price up)

it is annoying and it sucks if you fall for it, but that is unfortunately how the system works.
you make the most profit when someone else makes a mistake/ is mislead.

but it would be great if we could get "." or "," in the AH,
I have a "." at my Gold and plat display
I see a "," at my Card and Equippment collection

it seems to only miss in the AH and when you send/receive/earn currency...

TJTaylor
09-27-2015, 05:50 PM
I think there is a big difference between the other things you mentioned like buying low/selling high and taking someone for 100 dollars worth of plat due to a visual mistake made possible by the current UI. One is playing the market. The other is exploiting.

Oroniss
09-27-2015, 06:47 PM
Yeah, I reckon just ban them. Really, if their contribution to the game is trying to exploit problems with the UI to scam money out of people who are new, tired or in a hurry then the game and community are far better off without them. It's probably like 5 accounts in total doing it, but the number of players that fall for it for whatever reason and quit afterwards is going to be far more.

Fateanomaly
09-27-2015, 07:16 PM
Even if the victim is responsible for being scammed, i think action should be taken against the scammer. Unless cze is saying that this sort of scams are allowed which sends a very bad message.

Kangsta
09-27-2015, 07:38 PM
I am really happy to hear you were able to get some support and love from the people! I feel for you man, if something like that happened to me I would be really upset. I think you deserved the support you got.

Thumbs up for your overall attitude throughout this thing ^^

bwarner
09-28-2015, 07:13 AM
This would've happened to me, only I don't carry that kind of platinum balance, so I luckily was unable to complete the transaction. The fact that people know it works sometimes is only going to increase the amount of times we see this, so I'll add my name to the list asking to please improve the font or add commas. I'm also in favor of taking action against the scum that take advantage of people like this.

malloc31
09-28-2015, 07:44 AM
Going to fixed width font in the AH would really help. Sure it may look cooler now, but when it comes to money I think we can all agree clarity is the most important thing.

Fred
09-28-2015, 10:16 AM
Fixed width font is definitely a good solution, but commas sure are not. Commas in numbers reinforce the US-centrism of a game, but Hex tries to appeal to a global audience. If you want to separate thousands in the client, use a space, not a comma (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_System_of_Units#General_rules).

Zophie
09-28-2015, 10:35 AM
I'm also in favor of taking action against the scum that take advantage of people like this.

If someone gets banned for selling stuff at whatever price they want then I will be pretty disappointed.

Improve the UI to add commas if people are having difficulty reading the prices, but we shouldn't punish someone because another person didn't count the digits in a number accurately. I can sympathize with people who may have made a mistake, and commas might help make this mistake harder to make in some cases, but the numbers aren't exactly obfuscated as they are now, there is still an accurate expectation of the amount you will pay presented on the screen, and it's the buyer's responsibility to correctly read the number as presented before committing to a purchase.

Calling this a scam just takes responsibility off the buyer which is not something we should do. Each party in a transaction has very important responsibilities: The seller is responsible for selling something at the price they intend to sell something for. If the seller accidentally sells something for too low of a price, that's a loss to the seller, and it's their responsibility to avoid that by taking care to enter their prices correctly. The buyer is responsible for determining whether they are willing to pay for something at the price it is listed at. If they accidentally buy something for too high of a price, that's a loss to them, and it's their responsibility to avoid doing that by taking care to review the price correctly before making their purchase. We can't take these responsibilities away from either party otherwise it removes liability from both parties and creates even more opportunities for problems in the market.

If you think someone should be banned for pricing something too high on the AH just because someone might buy it by mistake, then we would also need to ban someone who buys an item priced too low on the AH just because someone might have listed it too low by mistake. That's an unnecessary slippery slope which can be avoided simply by maintaining the buyer and seller responsibilities as they are.

Cernz
09-28-2015, 10:42 AM
If ppl complain about hex ah scam they prolly never played eve online :)

Vorpal
09-28-2015, 10:47 AM
EVE added commas because it was far too easy to fall for market scams. They also popped up a warning if you were about to make a purchase for an item that was 100% or more above the 'average' cost of the item.

Turboflex
09-28-2015, 11:36 AM
Fixed width font is definitely a good solution, but commas sure are not. Commas in numbers reinforce the US-centrism of a game, but Hex tries to appeal to a global audience. If you want to separate thousands in the client, use a space, not a comma (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_System_of_Units#General_rules).

What are you talking about? Half the world uses commas not just the USA.

bwarner
09-28-2015, 11:55 AM
If you think someone should be banned for pricing something too high on the AH just because someone might buy it by mistake, then we would also need to ban someone who buys an item priced too low on the AH just because someone might have listed it too low by mistake. That's an unnecessary slippery slope which can be avoided simply by maintaining the buyer and seller responsibilities as they are.

You're entitled to your opinion, but in my opinion that analogy doesn't hold. In one case, a person made a mistake. In the other case, a person was lured into a trap by someone that knew exactly what they were doing. Those are different scenarios in my book. The claims that "maybe the seller did it by mistake" miss the point. I wouldn't advocate punishing someone who listed something like this one time. I would punish someone who repeatedly does this just to try to take advantage of others. I know in EVE it was part of the atmosphere to let players prey on others in the name of the "free market", but I hope that isn't the kind of community Hex is going to have.

magic_gazz
09-28-2015, 12:14 PM
I think the problem with punishing people for things like this is you then set up a system where people can just complain they got scammed every time they make a mistake. It also blurs the lines of what is ok and what is not.
If I list one item for 111111 and someone buys it that's ok with you but if I do it twice its not? or is the limit 3 times? There is also the possibility that someone just makes new accounts to get around your limits. What if someone makes a mistake more than once.

You then also set up the situation where people can complain when they list a card for gold by mistake. If I accidentally list my Vampire King for 2500 gold instead of plat and you buy it before I realise and take it down, then you just scammed me as you must have known that was a mistake and intentionally took advantage.

While one of these things is different to the other once you start policing stuff you have to question where the lines are drawn. In both examples someone was left with a bad taste in their mouth, in both examples someone profited from the mistake of someone else.

bwarner
09-28-2015, 12:20 PM
I don't want to punish for profiting off someone's mistake, I want to punish for repeatedly luring people into mistakes. I agree there is a grey area, and right now I trust HXE to navigate that grey area using the data they have. If that data is inconclusive, I'm fine with them doing nothing. If they consider the data conclusive, I would support them taking action against the perpetrators.

Tazelbain
09-28-2015, 12:36 PM
Not that I am pro-banning. But "Let' do nothing about Scamming" attitude bothers me. Scamming erodes faith. Faith is essential to a company that deals digital property.

catacasa
09-28-2015, 12:48 PM
There is no doubt in my mind that the people exploiting the AH UI with the 'X111' trick are scammers and should be warned/banned/etc depending on number of infractions.

If Hex does not acknowledge this as a scam (or the very least, acknowledge that the UI needs to be fixed) then by the very act of doing nothing they are condoning the actions of the scammers. The message Hex/support is currently sending: Feel free to rip people off with this trick and without fear of repercussion.

Phenteo
09-28-2015, 01:16 PM
Feel free to rip people off with this trick and without fear of repercussion.

I know you're trying to be dramatic, but this is false. We're always looking to see how the UI can be updated (for not only the auction house but other aspects of the game itself) and the Auction House could use a little love.

It is absolutely necessary you pay attention to what you are buying and how much you are spending on a card or item. We have stated multiple times that this is a buyer beware situation. We do not want to control prices and if someone wants to put a bid start at 1110 and buyout at 11111 then they are allowed to set the price. Sometimes it can be a mistake plain and simple, and sometimes someone might be trying to capitalize off the fact that the UI isn't the greatest. I do agree, however, that it is a horrible experience when you realize you spent more money than you originally had intended. But, you need to double-check everything.

noragar
09-28-2015, 01:25 PM
I don't think anyone should be banned outright for doing this, but I'd be fine if warnings were sent to anyone determined to be setting up 'intentionally deceiving' listings politely requesting them to stop with appropriate followups if they didn't.

Also, I thought it was a well-known function of the auction house, but maybe not. You can sort the AH listings by lowest buyout by clicking 4 times on the price header to toggle through the different sorts (it's been requested, and it would be nice if this were to become the default sort). I always do that before buying just to ensure that I see the lowest priced option available, but that would also serve to weed out these scam listings except in cases where the 11111 is the only one(s) listed.

Cernz
09-28-2015, 01:34 PM
+1 for not clicking 4 times to sort before i see the list i want ;)

catacasa
09-28-2015, 01:45 PM
I know you're trying to be dramatic, but this is false. We're always looking to see how the UI can be updated (for not only the auction house but other aspects of the game itself) and the Auction House could use a little love.

It is absolutely necessary you pay attention to what you are buying and how much you are spending on a card or item. We have stated multiple times that this is a buyer beware situation. We do not want to control prices and if someone wants to put a bid start at 1110 and buyout at 11111 then they are allowed to set the price. Sometimes it can be a mistake plain and simple, and sometimes someone might be trying to capitalize off the fact that the UI isn't the greatest. I do agree, however, that it is a horrible experience when you realize you spent more money than you originally had intended. But, you need to double-check everything.

Nothing in your post acknowledges the 'X111' trick as an exploit or scam or that actions will be taken against players using the trick. In fact, you focus on the "buyer's beware" aspect which would signify that it is not an exploit or scam and that the responsibility falls on the user. That's fine, but how does that make my statement false? I'm still getting the same message...

Phenteo
09-28-2015, 01:59 PM
Nothing in your post acknowledges the 'X111' trick as an exploit or scam or that actions will be taken against players using the trick. In fact, you focus on the "buyer's beware" aspect which would signify that it is not an exploit or scam and that the responsibility falls on the user. That's fine, but how does that make my statement false? I'm still getting the same message...

There are currently filters on the Auction house and you can sort by prices. If someone sells something for 11111 or 1111 it is up to them. Yes, I agree, the UI need a little love to make things even more clear. I understand that, in your eyes, this is an exploit or a scam, but it is not. The price is listed on the Auction house and it only takes a moment to discern that the price is obviously higher. A scam is one where you'd be paying the price of a primal pack only to receive a regular pack. An exploit is where you are paying a certain price and a player is able to use a bug or flaw in the code to make you end up paying more than the advertised price.

Here is a screenshot for clarity, that it really only takes a moment to see how much the buyout cost is. http://i.imgur.com/aJZizmv.jpg

Diesbudt
09-28-2015, 02:05 PM
Nothing in your post acknowledges the 'X111' trick as an exploit or scam or that actions will be taken against players using the trick. In fact, you focus on the "buyer's beware" aspect which would signify that it is not an exploit or scam and that the responsibility falls on the user. That's fine, but how does that make my statement false? I'm still getting the same message...

It is not an exploit or scam.

Scam means making an agreement and then either giving less, or something completely different in a bad manner, or nothing at all thus not fulfilling the deal.

Exploit means using deficiencies in the game for ones personal gain. Since This takes a second responding player that has full power to check, double check, and triple check the price before clicking buy, it is not an exploit.

While it is vile behavior and I do not agree with anyone acting like that; truth is it is NOT and exploit or a scam. A player set his items at the price he wanted to sell them for. It was a shady technique of posting, but a player can place stuff at whatever prices he wants. That is the point of an AH.

Can the UI be updated to help out? Yes
Can a confirmation window that has better font whenever spending more than say 500 platinum in the AH? Yes
Can a community reminding for people to not act like scum? Yes

There is alot that could help the situation BUT it is not a scam or exploit. So do not act like it is and they are not acknolwedging it as such.

catacasa
09-28-2015, 02:12 PM
Fine, it is not a scam or exploit, but does it even matter what we call it? It is simply players causing grief and ripping other players off intentionally (rarely, unintentionally).

So both of your posts, Phenteo, only further my original statement: Feel free to rip people off with this trick and without fear of repercussion. If this is actually false, then please explain why? Can I get in trouble for doing it? Your posts definitely make it seem like a legitimate option.

Phenteo
09-28-2015, 02:16 PM
If you choose to sell something for an outrageous price, you're welcome to do so. Other players don't have to pay for it and you're going to hurt yourself in the end. It is the responsibility of the buyer to pay attention to what they're buying.

Similarly, if someone sells an item and accidentally types in a value that is smaller than they wanted to, are we to blame the buyer for buying the item at a price that was clearly lower and probably a mistake?

You want to know what's ripping someone off? Go to a theme park and pay 6 bucks for a small bottle of water because they can set the price to whatever they want. An auction house is determined by what other players are selling it at and someone will likely sell it for less than an egregious price.

Tazelbain
09-28-2015, 02:28 PM
You are guys welcome to set that policy. But you guys have to understand that it sets a green light for scams, intended or not.

Phenteo
09-28-2015, 02:30 PM
You are guys welcome to set that policy. But you guys have to understand that it sets a green light for scams, intended or not.

Please explain how this is a scam. Are you unable to see the price? Are you paying for something different than intended?

I am well aware that it feels horrible if you didn't pay attention and ended up spending more than you wanted to. But, someone setting a high price for an item isn't scamming.

If someone is actually exploiting the game, we ban exploiters.

the_artic_one
09-28-2015, 02:35 PM
I've never done any type of programming. Can anyone with a programming background comment on just how "hard" or "easy" it would be to make values display with commas as been suggested several times across the threads? I'm curious how many resources would need to be diverted to change it.

Unity programmer here, it's not hard to add commas to a number (just change "price" to "price.ToString("N0")", you can even get it to use different locale formats so it's dots instead of commas in certain countries) but no change is trivial and even if they have it ready to go the patch might be delayed by other features (plus QA time). Plus they may have to adjust the UI to accommodate the commas or risk truncation/overflow (which could also be bad and lead to scams).

Also if they're most of the way through an AH UI overhaul they may be electing to wait for that.

catacasa
09-28-2015, 02:38 PM
Please explain how this is a scam. Are you unable to see the price? Are you paying for something different than intended?

Scam, exploit, whatever....

You are saying: Set the price to whatever you want including using the 'X111' trick. If you happen to rip other people off, so be it - it's the buyer's fault. You WILL NOT be reprimanded for using the trick.

I understand that Hex does not condone unscrupulous behavior (and isn't going to post something telling players it's okay to be unscrupulous), especially when it causes grief to other players, but this trick is here to stay and be abused until it is fixed or a different stance is taken.

Diesbudt
09-28-2015, 02:47 PM
Scam, exploit, whatever....

You are saying: Set the price to whatever you want including using the 'X111' trick. If you happen to rip other people off, so be it - it's the buyer's fault. You WILL NOT be reprimanded for using the trick.

I understand that Hex does not condone unscrupulous behavior (and isn't going to post something telling players it's okay to be unscrupulous), especially when it causes grief to other players, but this trick is here to stay and be abused until it is fixed or a different stance is taken.

Yes because you can set the price where you want. Though even calling it a "trick" is incorrect.

1) If someone puts bid at 1111 like the current ones on AH, since bid cannot = buyout, it is obvious it must have 1 more 1 than the bid meaning 5 ones.

2) I do not see the confusion, I looked on the AH and immediately could tell it was 5 1s.

There is no trick. There is no scam. There is no exploit. Yes it is a vile move, especially in a game that has had a great communty for 2+ years. But stop giving it names that it is not, literally took me no time flat to notice that it was 11111.
Plus they agree they want and plan to update the UI to make it easier to notice this, BUT it is not anything other then someone marking up their prices much higher in an attempt for someone of lower intelligence or of a lower attention span to make a mistake in purchasing.

Plus, if no one makes the mistake and someone plays AH bid right, they can time it and win it for a bid of 1112, thus getting it for 150 plat cheaper and the seller loses out.

Tazelbain
09-28-2015, 02:59 PM
Please explain how this is a scam. Are you unable to see the price? Are you paying for something different than intended?

I am well aware that it feels horrible if you didn't pay attention and ended up spending more than you wanted to. But, someone setting a high price for an item isn't scamming.

If someone is actually exploiting the game, we ban exploiters.Intentionally deceiving someone into making a transaction that they wouldn't make without the deception is a scam. Now I don't know for sure it was intentional but no rational buyer or seller looking at market would look at the higher price as a legit price. So it seems extremely likely.

Intentional creating confusion is a known con tactic see "Change raising" at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_confidence_tricks

catacasa
09-28-2015, 03:00 PM
Yes because you can set the price where you want. Though even calling it a "trick" is incorrect.

1) If someone puts bid at 1111 like the current ones on AH, since bid cannot = buyout, it is obvious it must have 1 more 1 than the bid meaning 5 ones.

2) I do not see the confusion, I looked on the AH and immediately could tell it was 5 1s.

There is no trick. There is no scam. There is no exploit. Yes it is a vile move, especially in a game that has had a great communty for 2+ years. But stop giving it names that it is not, literally took me no time flat to notice that it was 11111.
Plus they agree they want and plan to update the UI to make it easier to notice this, BUT it is not anything other then someone marking up their prices much higher in an attempt for someone of lower intelligence or of a lower attention span to make a mistake in purchasing.

Plus, if no one makes the mistake and someone plays AH bid right, they can time it and win it for a bid of 1112, thus getting it for 150 plat cheaper and the seller loses out.

You must not be, know, or work with people with visual disabilities or impairments. It's not all "lower intelligence or of a lower attention span" falling for this trick...er, I mean, vile move.

abxolute
09-28-2015, 03:06 PM
Yes because you can set the price where you want. Though even calling it a "trick" is incorrect.

1) If someone puts bid at 1111 like the current ones on AH, since bid cannot = buyout, it is obvious it must have 1 more 1 than the bid meaning 5 ones.

2) I do not see the confusion, I looked on the AH and immediately could tell it was 5 1s.

There is no trick. There is no scam. There is no exploit. Yes it is a vile move, especially in a game that has had a great communty for 2+ years. But stop giving it names that it is not, literally took me no time flat to notice that it was 11111.
Plus they agree they want and plan to update the UI to make it easier to notice this, BUT it is not anything other then someone marking up their prices much higher in an attempt for someone of lower intelligence or of a lower attention span to make a mistake in purchasing.

Plus, if no one makes the mistake and someone plays AH bid right, they can time it and win it for a bid of 1112, thus getting it for 150 plat cheaper and the seller loses out.

trick: a cunning act or scheme intended to deceive or outwit someone.

so what that person did is more or less a trick, also if someone bids at 1,111 and 1 more is added, doesn't it make 1112 and not 11,111 the difference is quite big.

Also phenteo paying $6 for a bottle is different than using visual trick since at the park the seller would tell you the price or written like $6.00, you definitely can't be tricked here. Im not saying the seller should get banned or whatever its all up hex to decide what to do

Phenteo
09-28-2015, 03:09 PM
Intentionally deceiving someone into making a transaction that they wouldn't make without the deception is a scam. Now I don't know for sure it was intentional but no rational buyer or seller looking at market would look at the higher price as a legit price. So it seems extremely likely.

Intentional creating confusion is a known con tactic see "Change raising" at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_confidence_tricks

Change raising is not appropriate in this situation. Money isn't transferred back and forth.

The seller is more likely hoping someone won't notice the price difference and pay for it. Which happens.

Moral of the story is pay attention to something before buying it. You can stop this from happening if you spend a few seconds and look closely.

Obliviate
09-28-2015, 03:13 PM
What if the price of the water was listed as 1111?

Phenteo
09-28-2015, 03:16 PM
What if the price of the water was listed as 1111?

If I saw water being sold for 1111 platinum, I would laugh and not buy it. Please take a moment and pay attention to prices on the auction house.

Obliviate
09-28-2015, 03:19 PM
If I saw water being sold for 1111 platinum, I would laugh and no buy it. Please take a moment and pay attention to prices on the auction house.

I was joking. I don't use the AH often, but when I do I always drink Dos'Equis.

Zophie
09-28-2015, 03:22 PM
Next thing you know they'll be calling for bans on people ending their prices with 9s, because it's a psychological trick to make the price slightly more appealing to customers at first glance. "It said 2799 so I thought it was a good deal but it was pretty much the same price as the 2800 listings, I was scammed!"

Diesbudt
09-28-2015, 03:24 PM
trick: a cunning act or scheme intended to deceive or outwit someone.

so what that person did is more or less a trick, also if someone bids at 1,111 and 1 more is added, doesn't it make 1112 and not 11,111 the difference is quite big.

Also phenteo paying $6 for a bottle is different than using visual trick since at the park the seller would tell you the price or written like $6.00, you definitely can't be tricked here. Im not saying the seller should get banned or whatever its all up hex to decide what to do

A trick is ment to outwit an average person. Any person that cas pay just a little attention to the price won't fall for it. I have dealt with digital AHs for nearly a decade and this is not the first or last time someone has done this, and I have never once accidentally fallen for it. Neither has most the people in all those games. Takes just 2-3 seconds to actually look at the price.

And what I was saying is buyout must always be larger. So if you see 1111 at bid price. and you look at buyout and see all 1's obviously it must be 5,6,7,8,9 1s. Cannot be 4 1s again.

Again while this is always vile people doing this, it takes someone not paying any attention or lack of a better phrase, someone of temporary phase of stupidity to fall for it. Thus I cannot qualify it as a trick.

Cernz
09-28-2015, 03:27 PM
And again, a useless discussion about nothing.

Just accept that everyone is responsible for his own actions.

If someone buys overpriced stuff... so be it.

Tazelbain
09-28-2015, 03:27 PM
Again while this is always vile people doing this, it takes someone not paying any attention or lack of a better phrase, someone of temporary phase of stupidity to fall for it. Thus I cannot qualify it as a trick.
But the bottom line, vile person is rewarded and customer feels cheated. Not good business.

abxolute
09-28-2015, 03:28 PM
Change raising is not appropriate in this situation. Money isn't transferred back and forth.

The seller is more likely hoping someone won't notice the price difference and pay for it. Which happens.

Moral of the story is pay attention to something before buying it. You can stop this from happening if you spend a few seconds and look closely.

your definity right about that, but

will that really stop them posting price like that intentionally

Can you provide guarantee that this will never happen again to buyers if the number visual thing is not solved (how you solve it its up to you guy im not an expert :) )


btw here is funny thought people or whoever said "that don't text or play with your phones you might have an accident" i think everyone is aware of it but you still you here there was an accident because he was messing with phone or something along that line, I've personally heard it many times. somehow or somewhere someone will get tricked again no matter how much tell them pay attention :)

Baigan
09-28-2015, 03:30 PM
And what I was saying is buyout must always be larger. So if you see 1111 at bid price. and you look at buyout and see all 1's obviously it must be 5,6,7,8,9 1s. Cannot be 4 1s again.

Yes, and this is definitely good to know. But this is an acute implementation detail. It's unreasonable to establish policy for AH use on the assumption that people know (or should know) this.

Ditsch
09-28-2015, 03:32 PM
And one point almost all people seem to be missing here the seller does 1110 as start price but you seldom see it as always some one bids on it. And then the whole move makes more sense and people can get tricked by 1110 start and 11111 buyout as they miss in the buyout that its now 5 ones and not 4 ones like they expect.

Diesbudt
09-28-2015, 03:36 PM
Yes, and this is definitely good to know. But this is an acute implementation detail. It's unreasonable to establish policy for AH use on the assumption that people know (or should know) this.

Well its basic knowledge for any bidding system, and it is 2015. So unless it is say someone younger than a teen, I hope they understand that basic principal. Which it is more of a comment against the seller as it is a slightly better no-trick, trick, to have bid at 1110 with buyout at 11111.

Secondly I looked on AH and I counted on my fingers how many 1s. Took 2 seconds to count to 5 on my fingers(I graduated 2nd grade! Onto addition and subtraction :O). Again, it is not hard. People do need to take some responsibility for their actions, even accidents such as this.

Again I agree the person is not someone I would like, and agree there can be things they can do to make it easier to see the prices to mitigate this.

Baigan
09-28-2015, 03:37 PM
You must not be, know, or work with people with visual disabilities or impairments.

This is an excellent point. As a player, I expect that reasonable efforts are made to make the AH equally accessible to all users. If other impaired users are paying more for items on the AH through no fault of their own then that is a deficiency of the AH. It seems that the use of commas/dots as delimiters is the top suggestion, and I certainly support it, but I have no sense for how much that actually improves usability for impaired users.

Diesbudt
09-28-2015, 03:37 PM
And one point almost all people seem to be missing here the seller does 1110 as start price but you seldom see it as always some one bids on it. And then the whole move makes more sense and people can get tricked by 1110 start and 11111 buyout as they miss in the buyout that its now 5 ones and not 4 ones like they expect.

there we go. Someone go be a hero and bit them up to 1112. Worst case scenario you win the bid. But then you could sell them to people for 1200 thus getting your money back.

Diesbudt
09-28-2015, 03:40 PM
This is an excellent point. As a player, I expect that reasonable efforts are made to make the AH equally accessible to all users. If other impaired users are paying more for items on the AH through no fault of their own then that is a failure of the AH. It seems that the use of commas/dots as delimiters is the top suggestion, and I certainly support it, but I have no sense for how much that actually improves usability for impaired users.

This is a good counter point. However if it is bad enough, they wouldn't be playing. And if it is borderline, I know you can change resolution to make the numbers appear much larger. So one could customize their game to make it easier to see if they have such a disability.

But I will agree, for someone not good vision commas would be a major improvement, unless one uses an excel sheet all day that doesnt use commas and are used to it.

Baigan
09-28-2015, 03:44 PM
Well its basic knowledge for any bidding system, and it is 2015. So unless it is say someone younger than a teen, I hope they understand that basic principal.

Why is it necessary to assume that people who want to use the AH have previous familiarity with these other bidding systems?

Harwinne
09-28-2015, 04:08 PM
For what it's worth- whenever I use buyout bids, I always click the last column a few times just to make sure that it is sorting by buyout bid before making any transactions.

As previously recommended, commas would help a lot here. If there's a way to display the number in a different color based on how many digits there are that would help as well. The OP is not screaming bloody murder and merely wants to alert people to a certain type of behavior that is going on and for other people to exercise more caution.

Roy_G
09-28-2015, 05:10 PM
Put a bid for 1112 on this 11,111 buyout primal,if it works i sell it for 1200.

ziggarius
09-28-2015, 06:03 PM
There is also the max buyout feature. I haven't read the entire thread hopefully someone suggested it before me.

You got q max price due to limited budget? Use the max buyout. Then you won't see the overpriced buyouts.

Fateanomaly
09-28-2015, 07:36 PM
So such tricks are allowed in cze view. I will keep that in mind.

Kurposkano
09-28-2015, 07:53 PM
FYI this has moved to the AoM packs. Very cheap bid price with 1111 as the buyout price. You have been warned.

Assassine
09-29-2015, 03:11 AM
If you choose to sell something for an outrageous price, you're welcome to do so. Other players don't have to pay for it and you're going to hurt yourself in the end. It is the responsibility of the buyer to pay attention to what they're buying.

Similarly, if someone sells an item and accidentally types in a value that is smaller than they wanted to, are we to blame the buyer for buying the item at a price that was clearly lower and probably a mistake?

You want to know what's ripping someone off? Go to a theme park and pay 6 bucks for a small bottle of water because they can set the price to whatever they want. An auction house is determined by what other players are selling it at and someone will likely sell it for less than an egregious price.

The theme park thing is real. Was at one with my sister recently and we ran out of drinks. Absurd.

Eierdotter
09-29-2015, 03:12 AM
So such tricks are allowed in cze view. I will keep that in mind.

it is as allowed as selling a VK for 2.600 Gold.
If YOU make a mistake it is YOUR fault, and YOUR responsibillity to make sure YOU do not make mistakes.

If it would not be allowed, we would not have a AH, we would have a shop where you buy cards for a set amount and sell them for 95% of the buy amount, no scamming, no economics, each rare worth the same, each legendary worth the same. Trading pointless.

I would be shocked if CZE would ban people who sell overpriced cards on the AH, where do you draw the line, 1000%, 500%, 200%, 150%? where is the line to ban? is undercutting also unfair then? If you start policing stuff like this you get a chain reaction.

But i really hope the next patch adds "." or "," and changes the font of numbers to make them identifyable at a quick glance.

rwn
09-29-2015, 03:39 AM
it is as allowed as selling a VK for 2.600 Gold.
If YOU make a mistake it is YOUR fault, and YOUR responsibillity to make sure YOU do not make mistakes.

If it would not be allowed, we would not have a AH, we would have a shop where you buy cards for a set amount and sell them for 95% of the buy amount, no scamming, no economics, each rare worth the same, each legendary worth the same. Trading pointless.

I would be shocked if CZE would ban people who sell overpriced cards on the AH, where do you draw the line, 1000%, 500%, 200%, 150%? where is the line to ban? is undercutting also unfair then? If you start policing stuff like this you get a chain reaction.

But i really hope the next patch adds "." or "," and changes the font of numbers to make them identifyable at a quick glance.

Agreed.
Commas can be added or whatever but can we stop blaming others because some people can't differentiate between 4 or 5 1s?

Fateanomaly
09-29-2015, 04:36 AM
It is not that they sell overpriced items but that they are obviously exploiting the interface to scam careless buyers. The victims are responsible but the scammers shouldn't be allowed to get away either. Its like saying conman shouldn't be prosecuted because their victims should have known better. But whatever, this is cze game and they set their policy.

Arrgh
09-29-2015, 04:56 AM
A "simple" way to end this sort of stuff would be to display the players name along with the auction. If you are being a scumbag then people will know.

dmar314
09-29-2015, 05:06 AM
I almost fell for this myself since the 11111 looks so much like 1111 because of the centering and font... the only thing that saved me was that I didn't have that much plat in my account. I think it's extremely unethical and I would have taken this much worse than the OP if I had lost that much money.

rwn
09-29-2015, 05:34 AM
It is not that they sell overpriced items but that they are obviously exploiting the interface to scam careless buyers. The victims are responsible but the scammers shouldn't be allowed to get away either. Its like saying conman shouldn't be prosecuted because their victims should have known better. But whatever, this is cze game and they set their policy.

Conman hide the truth from you in a way which makes it at least very hard to check it and usually create scenarios where you have no time for it either with distractions or something like that.
Do you really want to compare something like where you have all the time and the information in front of you to the dealings of conman?

edit:
If you want to compare it to something it's like when people complain because they signed a disadvantageous legitimate contract and didn't read it. Well nobody cares, everything was in front of you.

Thrawn
09-29-2015, 06:36 AM
It is not that they sell overpriced items but that they are obviously exploiting the interface to scam careless buyers. The victims are responsible but the scammers shouldn't be allowed to get away either. Its like saying conman shouldn't be prosecuted because their victims should have known better. But whatever, this is cze game and they set their policy.

Just to clarify, you're saying that Hex should have a policy/rule that says -

"Posting items on the auction house that have a cost ending in 1s is a punishable offense."?

abxolute
09-29-2015, 07:00 AM
Just to clarify, you're saying that Hex should have a policy/rule that says -

"Posting items on the auction house that have a cost ending in 1s is a punishable offense."?

Dont think he means that, its probably along the lines of cze needs to decide what they want to do, its their game. Having a policy/rule on certain numbers is outrageous, that's like you can post items according to you but you cant post items for this price e.g. 1s or whatever.

the best option is to make the numbers more clear with comma etc and once that done i don't think there is any need for banning or anything else for that matter.

Turboflex
09-29-2015, 07:20 AM
I know you're trying to be dramatic, but this is false. We're always looking to see how the UI can be updated (for not only the auction house but other aspects of the game itself) and the Auction House could use a little love.

It is absolutely necessary you pay attention to what you are buying and how much you are spending on a card or item. We have stated multiple times that this is a buyer beware situation. We do not want to control prices and if someone wants to put a bid start at 1110 and buyout at 11111 then they are allowed to set the price. Sometimes it can be a mistake plain and simple, and sometimes someone might be trying to capitalize off the fact that the UI isn't the greatest. I do agree, however, that it is a horrible experience when you realize you spent more money than you originally had intended. But, you need to double-check everything.

This is a pretty pathetic "it's a free country, man" response from HexEnt. It's pretty clear that anyone using three or more '1's is attempting to trick potential buyers, abusing the UI where those character combinations deceive the human eye. Tell us UI improvements are coming, really soon, but don't excuse the lowlifes who do this.

juggernaut
09-29-2015, 07:26 AM
Intentionally deceiving someone into making a transaction that they wouldn't make without the deception is a scam. Now I don't know for sure it was intentional but no rational buyer or seller looking at market would look at the higher price as a legit price. So it seems extremely likely.

Intentional creating confusion is a known con tactic see "Change raising" at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_confidence_tricks

Whether or not its actually change-raising per Phenteo's follow-up is pedantic, the behavior is Intentionally Creating Confusion. I get that Hex's official policy is caveat emptor, I strongly disagree with it. In no other marketplace (online like ebay/amazon or brick and mortar stores like Target - or even at a flea market) would this seller behavior be acceptable.

Add a column to the AH to describe who is auctioning the item and the let the market's backlash on the sellers settle the situation if you are unwilling to aid your consumers.

malloc31
09-29-2015, 09:57 AM
The point is not that people are doing evil things to deceive people (they are and they always will when allowed).

The point is any correctly built AH would be in Fixed Width Font and this would never happen. Humans learn to do math and compare numbers by lining up the decimal places. When you set up a systems with numbers intentionally misaligned, the manufacturer of the system is at fault, the AH is at fault. The fact that they will not admit that the AH needs to just change font and change it is incredible to me.

And this shouldnt take months or waiting till the next big patch. This is a small fix and should be done ASAP.

Why Cultivate a AH that encourages ripping off of any one?

Timlagor
09-29-2015, 10:11 AM
fro most of community its not a deal, who has 11k plat/ :p i know some poeple do but not t that many

The same trick is appearing at all price points.
I put in a ticket to Support to complain about the issue and make sure they know.

Yes you should be careful about buying things but that does not in any way excuse Hex for failing to take very simple measures to discourage this despicable behaviour. I wouldn't expect you to get a refund but I'm appalled that they haven't taken the basic measure of inserting commas (useful anyway) and/or changing the font.

Thrawn
09-29-2015, 10:48 AM
I wouldn't expect you to get a refund but I'm appalled that they haven't taken the basic measure of inserting commas (useful anyway) and/or changing the font.

Who said they wouldn't? For all we know this is being worked on right now and will show up in a patch in a few days.

Just because Hex has taken the stance that it's not an exploit and is a buyer beware situation, unless I missed a post somewhere, doesn't mean they won't make an attempt to improve the UI related to this.

Tazelbain
09-29-2015, 10:54 AM
But seems weird thing to do. "They did nothing wrong, but we are going make some changes to make it more difficult."

Yoss
09-29-2015, 11:28 AM
The fact that they will not admit that the AH needs to just change font and change it is incredible to me.
I agree with all else you said except this. They did say the AH needs to change. They just also said that the current situation is buyer beware (because the system will not protect you).


"They did nothing wrong, but we are going make some changes to make it more user friendly."
Fixed that for you.

malloc31
09-29-2015, 11:42 AM
I agree with all else you said except this. They did say the AH needs to change. They just also said that the current situation is buyer beware (because the system will not protect you).

They said " and the Auction House could use a little love." that is not the same as it needs to change, or maybe I should say it is not the same amount of urgency. Almost everything in this game "could use a little love" we are still in a not 100% polished form this is expected. This is not a question of polish this is having an AH that lines numbers up correctly, this should be hot fixed ASAP. So unless they post that is their plan I would imagine they disagree with me.

Tazelbain
09-29-2015, 11:42 AM
Well since the AH has nead QoL improvements since it came out, thanks scammers!

Phenteo
09-29-2015, 11:47 AM
The fact that they will not admit that the AH needs to just change font and change it is incredible to me.

Since you may have missed it:

We're always looking to see how the UI can be updated (for not only the auction house but other aspects of the game itself) and the Auction House could use a little love.

But to make it more clear, since you like prefer to be more negative, we are aware and also want to make changes to the AH UI.



And this shouldnt take months or waiting till the next big patch. This is a small fix and should be done ASAP.
I talked to Engineering about adding commas. And while, adding a comma is easy, the current state of the in-development client that we're hoping to patch in shortly has other work being done to it.

I've also reached out to Customer Service as to how to deal with the situation in case we have one or several users specifically trying to grief community members. And I am still awaiting a response.

I also had DataDragon look into the numbers and only 1 incident happened where a purchase was transacted. And up to only three other times it wasn't transacted because of lack of enough currency. This is not currently a largely affecting issue as even less than 1% of users have even been affected. However, I made it abundantly clear to Engineering that we need to make the UI more user-friendly. We has an UX Designer come into the office a few days ago to help us make improvements and enhancements to the UI. I also talked with Chark about this. You guys need to give me time to make changes, this post popped up when the office was closed on the weekend and I started keeping track.

Final note, we stress buyer beware not to allow players to grief the community and get away with it. But it is MUCH harder to go back and reverse transactions than to encourage the buyer to just pay close attention.

Edswor
09-29-2015, 11:50 AM
Thanks Phenteo for the info. Helpful as always ;) .

ziggarius
09-29-2015, 12:09 PM
I think Phenteo just hatched a dozen terrorantula eggs on us with that smack down.

Very nice info, glad to hear the progress and bottlenecks in regards to a more permanently fix instead of just pushing user awareness.

Tazelbain
09-29-2015, 12:26 PM
only 1 incident happened where a purchase was transacted. And up to only three other times it wasn't transacted because of lack of enough currency.
This confirms Nico's poverty strategy works. :p

bwarner
09-29-2015, 12:42 PM
I've also reached out to Customer Service as to how to deal with the situation in case we have one or several users specifically trying to grief community members. And I am still awaiting a response.


Awesome, this is exactly what I was hoping to here. Even if the end result is nothing happening, I'm glad to see that the investigation is occurring.

catacasa
09-29-2015, 12:50 PM
...I also had DataDragon look into the numbers and only 1 incident happened where a purchase was transacted...

Thanks for the information.

Did DataDragon only look for platinum transactions? There is no way there was only one completed transaction considering that I know more players than that that were a victim to this issue and at least one of them was gold.

malloc31
09-29-2015, 01:03 PM
But to make it more clear, since you like prefer to be more negative, we are aware and also want to make changes to the AH UI.

Thank you, if any of your original posts had been like that I would not have said a word (your other posts seemed to be very light hearted and joking of the situation showing absolutely no gleam of any urgency to correct the problem.) My intent was never negativity, my intent was lets just get this done. I am very glad the problem seems to be being acted on, sorry for my doubts.

fido_one
09-29-2015, 03:32 PM
I feel partly responsible for the transgression here and I apologize; it was so soon after the purchase and I wasn't objectively authoring my posts (not that I do that anyway). I knew before posting that CZE would be on it in some form, so I should have jettisoned the 'woe is me' BS and just said 'watch out.'

I now wonder, however, is there a way to post a warning to the community about such things without sparking a thermonuclear war over it? And no, I don't think a warning like this can be put in 'good/bad' traders or even the AH forum.

AoM Primal prices at the time were close to 1111. When you see a good deal on the AH, do you pause for a minute and think real hard if it is a scam? You generally try and pick up the deal ASAP as if it's good, as it won't be there for long. If you are working on a project on another screen or making a ton of trades, yes, you'll slip every once and a while. No, I'm not trying to say I didn't make a lazy purchase, I obviously did and paid for it. I'm just saying it happens to everyone and laying down a blanket statement that the purchase was careless and that the buyer kind of deserved it (by alluding to Darwinian ideologies at the market) is in parts completely correct but wholly short-sighted.

There are better solutions here, commas or any sort of deliminator is a win-win. Yes, CZE will get something in there. Why? Because the lack of deliminators makes the AH a lot less fun as a whole for the community, that's why. So it'll happen. It'll self prioritize on how often and how much it negatively effects the community.

But even though sanctioned, there is still some dodgeyness going on! And to reiterate, it's 100% right for CZE is to say that dodgeyness is part of the market game. But I believe it's 100% right for the community to call out that dodgeyness when it happens to protect each other.

Anyways, if I could do my OP over *Ahem*:

Whoa Everyone!

Just so you know AoM Primals are falling to the 1100-1200 mark. There seems to be some dodgy listings afoot that are going for 1111 with a 11111 buyout and you may fall for it.

Hey, what do you guys think of deliminators in the AH, has anyone talked about that?

Thanks for listening! I love you!

----

TOOT
09-29-2015, 04:49 PM
I hope it is adjusted in some way. I just went now to take a look at what Phenteo is going for... This is what is currently listed.

http://puu.sh/ksXnz/0bea7f46e1.jpg

It also seems like there is even more of this going on since this thread started. It just makes the game look bad imo if you want to get a card and have to dodge like 80% "traps".

Phenteo
09-29-2015, 05:08 PM
I hope it is adjusted in some way. I just went now to take a look at what Phenteo is going for... This is what is currently listed.

http://puu.sh/ksXnz/0bea7f46e1.jpg

It also seems like there is even more of this going on since this thread started. It just makes the game look bad imo if you want to get a card and have to dodge like 80% "traps".

Thanks. I pointed it out to DataDragon. Also, it seems that some people believe that if they leave it listed for short periods that we won't notice. The 11199 ones have already been delisted.

Phenteo
09-29-2015, 05:10 PM
Side note, this does not mean I condone adding more screenshots of any auctions with large prices. So please, don't post more as we don't want to turn this into a witch hunt.

FrostWynn
09-29-2015, 05:46 PM
Recently, rares such as Vampire Princess (non-AA) which are often in the 200p (+/- 50p) range, has appeared with the same 1111p pricing. Newer players kindly beware as someone is using the 1111p pricing to intentionally mislead players for quite a handful of the lower price range rares. Take care.

funktion
09-29-2015, 08:46 PM
**Edit: I hadn't read every post in the thread yet, and had subsequently missed this post http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=46095&page=11&p=529897&viewfull=1#post529897 and other like it. Seems like the underlying clarity issues are known and being looked in to but leaving my post intact for posterity.**


Change raising is not appropriate in this situation. Money isn't transferred back and forth.

The seller is more likely hoping someone won't notice the price difference and pay for it. Which happens.

Moral of the story is pay attention to something before buying it. You can stop this from happening if you spend a few seconds and look closely.

While I agree with most people in here saying that the responsibility falls mostly on the player making the purchase, I do think that there could still be steps made to improve so that this doesn't happen.

There is no question that the buyer intended to buy the item, but there is certainly question regarding whether they intended to buy that item for that price. Obviously in the case of primals if the buyer spent nearly 100$ in plat more than they intended to there are going to be some negative feelings.

When the sorting options on the auction house lack clarity, something like this is much more likely to happen. For someone picking up the game right now there is no intuitive option on how to sort prices. "Click that button 4 times" is not only unfriendly for the user it is also incredibly wasteful as far as time goes.

If players were able to set their own filters it would go a long way to improve the auction house. There is even a field for "price max" but you know what even when you have "buyouts only" checked it will show the cards that are DRASTICALLY over your price max.

It isn't even just about this particular instance where player confusion and lack of clarity allows the shady tactic of selling something for 10x it's value to happen. I would go so far as to say that the auction house needs some pretty large quality of life improvements before we move into beta.

I have a list of about 6-7 things that I would personally like to see improved upon before the game grows much further and the auction house potentially has a few paragraphs dedicated to itself within that list. One of these days I'll get around to writing said list but while this topic seems to be getting attention I wanted to throw in my 2 cents.

Believe me I totally understand that prioritization is important especially with such a small development team, but at some point core features that are somewhat antiquated need to be improved upon. To me the real moral of the story is not whether someone should pay attention or not, it is whether the system itself could be improved upon. Not only to prevent this one infrequent case from happening but also in order to better the user experience of the entire playerbase.

L1ght
09-30-2015, 04:16 AM
Why buyer beware isn't good enough and why HEX needs to intervene.

First & foremost, I don't think anyone here is saying players shouldn't be able to list items for whatever they want. Outrageous amounts, unbelievable bargains, it's all fair game and it should always be the buyer's and seller's responsibility. Similarly, no one is saying we should open a Pandora's box of HEX having to play nanny for people who pay too much or accidentally list items to too little. Caveat Emptor.

But - these '11111' listings are different.

The human garbage who are making these 11111 listings are leveraging idiosyncrasies of the AH combined with shortcomings of the UI in order to deceive. This is exploiting, plain and simple. The lack of commas combined with the closeness of the 11111s makes it very difficult to read. Add to this the default view in the AH lists minimum bids first, regardless of buyout. The result is this person has created a recipe that allows them to list items at the top of the first page, with a buyout that is an order of magnitude more than the casual observer would be intending to pay, but looks at first glance like it is the going-rate.

If you are exploiting mechanics in order to deceive and defraud people of their money then you are running a SCAM.

It's all about the intention.

I think it is fair to assume that nobody in these cases was willingly and knowingly seeking to pay 10x more for something. Similarly, I think it is fair to assume that the dirtbag who is making these 11111 listings is doing so systematically with the clear intention of scamming unwitting people by exploiting mechanics and the UI.

This is not a case of someone paying too much for something and then regretting it. This is someone actively trying to deceive people into buying something for a price they were not intending to. HEX needs to step in and take action, starting with improvements to the UI.

BUT more importantly, HEX needs to take disciplinary action against accounts using this disgusting scam. They are breeding distrust, bitterness and misery and this negativity is hurting the game. People who fall victim to this scam are very likely to just quit forever - particularly if their plight falls on deaf ears. Or worse yet, they are subjected to victim blaming - It's your own fault, you should have looked harder, now you'll know for next time etc etc. Take a few seconds and just think how it would feel to realize you just lost half or all of your savings to someone flagrantly trying to exploit the system to scam you.

Cory I know you are reading this and I know this sort of behavior is not something you want in HEX. Our community is better than this. Do something about it.

dionix
09-30-2015, 04:31 AM
just give us a list of the accounts that are making these 1111 listings. nothing more.
This will help to kill this scam. And check double/triple accounts and transactions between these...

darkwonders
09-30-2015, 04:52 AM
In the past 2 weeks it's happened 3 times for Primal Set 3 pack

http://hexprice.com/Card/Set%20003%20Primal%20Pack

rwn
09-30-2015, 05:16 AM
The human garbage who are making these 11111 listings are leveraging idiosyncrasies of the AH combined with shortcomings of the UI in order to deceive. This is exploiting, plain and simple. The lack of commas combined with the closeness of the 11111s makes it very difficult to read.

And this is where your argument falls apart, the numbers can be read perfectly if you stop for a moment and use you brain like you should before every purchase or before you do anything for that matter. How come only a few people bought these items compared to how many AH users there are? If the numbers would be very hard to read everybody would do these things and the AH would full of transactions (not just listings), yet it's not.

Kami
09-30-2015, 05:28 AM
Why buyer beware isn't good enough and why HEX needs to intervene.

First & foremost, I don't think anyone here is saying players shouldn't be able to list items for whatever they want. Outrageous amounts, unbelievable bargains, it's all fair game and it should always be the buyer's and seller's responsibility. Similarly, no one is saying we should open a Pandora's box of HEX having to play nanny for people who pay too much or accidentally list items to too little. Caveat Emptor.

But - these '11111' listings are different.

The human garbage who are making these 11111 listings are leveraging idiosyncrasies of the AH combined with shortcomings of the UI in order to deceive. This is exploiting, plain and simple. The lack of commas combined with the closeness of the 11111s makes it very difficult to read. Add to this the default view in the AH lists minimum bids first, regardless of buyout. The result is this person has created a recipe that allows them to list items at the top of the first page, with a buyout that is an order of magnitude more than the casual observer would be intending to pay, but looks at first glance like it is the going-rate.

If you are exploiting mechanics in order to deceive and defraud people of their money then you are running a SCAM.

It's all about the intention.

I think it is fair to assume that nobody in these cases was willingly and knowingly seeking to pay 10x more for something. Similarly, I think it is fair to assume that the dirtbag who is making these 11111 listings is doing so systematically with the clear intention of scamming unwitting people by exploiting mechanics and the UI.

This is not a case of someone paying too much for something and then regretting it. This is someone actively trying to deceive people into buying something for a price they were not intending to. HEX needs to step in and take action, starting with improvements to the UI.

BUT more importantly, HEX needs to take disciplinary action against accounts using this disgusting scam. They are breeding distrust, bitterness and misery and this negativity is hurting the game. People who fall victim to this scam are very likely to just quit forever - particularly if their plight falls on deaf ears. Or worse yet, they are subjected to victim blaming - It's your own fault, you should have looked harder, now you'll know for next time etc etc. Take a few seconds and just think how it would feel to realize you just lost half or all of your savings to someone flagrantly trying to exploit the system to scam you.

Cory I know you are reading this and I know this sort of behavior is not something you want in HEX. Our community is better than this. Do something about it.

I disagree with this entirely. All the information is in front of you. The only way this would be considered a scam is if the seller stated it was being sold for 1111 and then sold it to you at 11111 at the last second.

Unfortunately, this is not the case. Additionally, since the sellers are not breaking any rules, the only legitimate way to combat this is to raise awareness, not punish those users that list things at high value regardless of UI or not.

For all you know, it could be a lazy seller, intentionally listing multiple items at 1111 bid price with a 11111 buyout because they want it to be bid on, not bought-out. Tapping a single key repeatedly is sure as heck faster than 10000 or 12345, etc.

There is no way to prove the motivation of a seller. In a court system, this would be reasonable doubt. There is no exploit, there is no hidden terms and predatory contracts. It literally shows you the cost upfront.

This argument you make is akin to going to a store without reading glasses and buying something at full price and then screaming you got scammed because you couldn't read it. Yes, it sucks for the buyer but it is entirely the buyer's fault.

And as CZE has stated, 'that being said', the UI could use some love to assist buyers. But at the end of the day, it's buyer beware. This applies to all facets of money-spending, not just HEX.

Edit: If you think this is an exploit/scam still, ask yourself this, do you think you would fall for this exploit/scam? If you think the likelyhood is 'possible' then I'll re-evaluate my argument but I think the vast majority of people would not have any issue seeing the cost and making an informed decision even given the state of the current UI.

malloc31
09-30-2015, 05:33 AM
And this is where your argument falls apart, the numbers can be read perfectly if you stop for a moment and use you brain like you should before every purchase or before you do anything for that matter. How come only a few people bought these items compared to how many AH users there are? If the numbers would be very hard to read everybody would do these things and the AH would full of transactions (not just listings), yet it's not.

The main reason is most people do not have enough plat so if they try they can not buy them, also not a very large number of people by expensive items per days (only around 10 set 3 primal packs sell a day).

As for the argument that this is not a scam, this is much like if you went to a store and saw an item for $8, and then when you pay for it they tell you it you didn't notice to tiny zeros after the and it's really $800 and you have to buy it. Or if you had a verbal contract and some one mumbled the price. You should not be able to purposely hide the true price of something you are selling, and attempt to trick some one into paying more then they expect. And in this case they are exploiting the poor font choice of the AH, so this should be by definition an intentional exploit.

rwn
09-30-2015, 05:42 AM
The main reason is most people do not have enough plat so if they try they can not buy them, also not a very large number of people by expensive items per days (only around 10 set 3 primal packs sell a day).

As for the argument that this is not a scam, this is much like if you went to a store and saw an item for $8, and then when you pay for it they tell you it you didn't notice to tiny zeros after the and it's really $800 and you have to buy it. Or if you had a verbal contract and some one mumbled the price. You should not be able to purposely hide the true price of something you are selling, and attempt to trick some one into paying more then they expect. And in this case they are exploiting the poor font choice of the AH, so this should be by definition an intentional exploit.

See Kami's post above. I would agree if say the 1s at the end of the price would be like 10fonts smaller than the numbers ahead but that is not the case, they are perfectly visible.

As for the intention:
Let's say I want to list a card that is not on the AH currently, I check the price on hexprice, it's 300p and I put it up for 600p or 900p. Should be punished for using the idiocy of others?

There could be other examples as well, do you see the problem the current precedent would make if HXE punished people right now? Where do you draw the lines?

Kami
09-30-2015, 05:46 AM
As for the argument that this is not a scam, this is much like if you went to a store and saw an item for $8, and then when you pay for it they tell you it you didn't notice to tiny zeros after the and it's really $800 and you have to buy it. Or if you had a verbal contract and some one mumbled the price. You should not be able to purposely hide the true price of something you are selling, and attempt to trick some one into paying more then they expect.

I agree, those would be examples of a scam; however, the way the AH works, especially in the context of this thread, does not and is not a scam.


And in this case they are exploiting the poor font choice of the AH, so this should be by definition an intentional exploit.

If you're going to argue about 'exploiting the poor font choice', by that definition, any person listing ANYTHING on the AH as it is now, should be labelled an exploiter. You will have to prove motive to prove they aren't supposedly exploiting. How can you prove that any number they put in isn't meant to exploit?

Also considering how many transactions as a whole have occurred without issue on the AH, I am doubtful that people cannot read the font without difficulty. I'd say the opposite is true and that people haven't had an issues reading the font for the most part.

If the font truly was the issue, would you not expect a significant number - in fact, a majority - to have complained about poor font choice for a while now? Would you not expect there have been a large number of miscalculated transactions by now?

I'd wager there are more seller errors than buyer errors. For example, selling something for 1000 gold instead of 1000 platinum.

Ertzi
09-30-2015, 05:48 AM
I think it is pointless to argue the semantics in this situation. Is it a "scam", "trick" or an "exploit"? Who cares. I see this more as a moral/philosophical/ethical question.

Fact: Posting such prices on the AH is completely legal and within the rules. There is no denying that.

Now, do you or do you not feel that this is acceptable behavior? Should there be repercussions for doing this? I am firmly in the camp of "yes". I choose to believe that some of the "111" postings are intentional, with the aim of luring buyers into a trap. This would have to be checked case-by-case, but if a seller exhibits this behavior repeatedly, I would absolutely penalize this person. Now, this is just me, but I would certainly remove these sort of players from the HEX gene pool with all haste.

Forget the fact that you are absolutely allowed to do this. Do you want to be associated with a game where such behavior is rampant?

Kami
09-30-2015, 05:52 AM
I think it is pointless to argue the semantics in this situation. Is it a "scam", "trick" or an "exploit"? Who cares. I see this more as a moral/philosophical/ethical question.

Fact: Posting such prices on the AH is completely legal and within the rules. There is no denying that.

Now, do you or do you not feel that this is acceptable behavior? Should there be repercussions for doing this? I am firmly in the camp of "yes". I choose to believe that some of the "111" postings are intentional, with the aim of luring buyers into a trap. This would have to be checked case-by-case, but if a seller exhibits this behavior repeatedly, I would absolutely penalize this person. Now, this is just me, but I would certainly remove these sort of players from the HEX gene pool with all haste.

Forget the fact that you are absolutely allowed to do this. Do you want to be associated with a game where such behavior is rampant?

If you don't care whether it is a scam, trick, or an exploit, why would it be moral/philosophical/ethical question? That's arguing in bad faith.

The fact is, as you stated, it is legal and within the rules.

Whether or not such behaviour is rampant is besides the point. If this is not a scam, trick, or an exploit, what is wrong with this behaviour?

Why would you penalize a person if this behaviour is not illegal nor out of the rules?

As I've stated, the proper way to combat this is to raise awareness if you don't like it. But witch hunts do not help anyone.

rwn
09-30-2015, 05:57 AM
If you don't care whether it is a scam, trick, or an exploit, why would it be moral/philosophical/ethical question? That's arguing in bad faith.

The fact is, as you stated, it is legal and within the rules.

Whether or not such behaviour is rampant is besides the point. If this is not a scam, trick, or an exploit, what is wrong with this behaviour?

Why would you penalize a person if this behaviour is not illegal nor out of the rules?

As I've stated, the proper way to combat this is to raise awareness if you don't like it. But witch hunts do not help anyone.

The reason to punish them is "muh feelings" and I hope HXE will always stay on the rational side.

L1ght
09-30-2015, 06:01 AM
Edit: If you think this is an exploit/scam still, ask yourself this, do you think you would fall for this exploit/scam? If you think the likelyhood is 'possible' then I'll re-evaluate my argument but I think the vast majority of people would not have any issue seeing the cost and making an informed decision even given the state of the current UI.

Kami lets be honest for a second.

Ask yourself this, Do you genuinely think this seller is being lazy or are you just being argumentative?

IMHO, they are being malicious. They are listing (not once or twice, but hundreds of listings and still continuing after screwing people) items 10x their value in a manner that is as deceptive as they can possibly make the listings within the constraints of the system. They are actively trying to trick people and steal their money. Do you really want people like this in the game? Court System... Reasonable doubt... I don't think I need to remind you that HEX Reserves the right to ban people at any time, for any reason or for no reason. If they wanted to clean up this garbage from our community they could at any time.

And to answer your question - Do I think I would ever fall for this scam? I almost did. I have a 4k monitor and HEX does not scale font well (or at all), so for me the type is even more illegible than for most (I have 20/20 vision) and I do honestly need to stop and squint to see. But I don't see how that matters. People have fallen for it, do we just say, oh it your own fault be more careful?

Why should we be giving someone carte blanche to rip people off just because some portion of the community can recognize the scam? Should we be saying, "Welcome to HEX New Player, before you start here is a list of scams you should avoid. We're not going to do anything about them, so be careful because its your own damn fault if you fall victim! Enjoy the game."

tegne
09-30-2015, 06:11 AM
Wow it's surprising to me how much defense has rallied to this 11111 seller/s, or to be clearer imo scammers!
And let's not be pedantic here their intention is to trick you into paying 100x the value of a pack/card.
The intention is to con you out of cash/plat.

Maybe they are putting 11111 as buyout cause they want it bid on and it's easier than typing 10000 as Kami said.
No dude they are not - if ease is what they wanted and bidding rather than buyout then they would post no buyout at all.
You know as well as I do that these 11111 posts are blatantly trying to rob buyers.
Doesn't Hex care that it's loyal fan base is being treated like this.
Why would you allow this to go on, it's like allowing your friend to be mugged in front of you when you know you have the power to stop the mugging.

Now as Ertzi points out they have the freedom to do that.
And Hex has the freedom to allow them.
But realize by allowing this behavior you are leaving a bad taste in my mouth and I'm sure in others that on the whole have much respect for how Hex treats its player base.

I've seen how passionate you are about this game Cory.
I hope you will do something that shows you care about this issue and how the community that also loves this game is treated.

Kami
09-30-2015, 06:14 AM
Kami lets be honest for a second.

Ask yourself this, Do you genuinely think this seller is being lazy or are you just being argumentative?
I was around when the Diablo 3 AH still existed. I've sold things using that exact method because it saves time when listing many, many items. They did not have a batch selling feature in the D3 AH. Also, the HEX AH does not force a seller to use batch selling methods either.


IMHO, they are being malicious. They are listing (not once or twice, but hundreds of listings and still continuing after screwing people) items 10x their value in a manner that is as deceptive as they can possibly make the listings within the constraints of the system. They are actively trying to trick people and steal their money. Do you really want people like this in the game? Court System... Reasonable doubt... I don't think I need to remind you that HEX Reserves the right to ban people at any time, for any reason or for no reason. If they wanted to clean up this garbage from our community they could at any time.
Again, you would have to prove that it is malicious. There have been thousands of transactions since HEX AH has opened up. HEX reserves the right to ban people at any time, for any reason or no reason - while that is true, when you start banning people who have literally done nothing wrong, you have a problem as a whole.


And to answer your question - Do I think I would ever fall for this scam? I almost did. I have a 4k monitor and HEX does not scale font well (or at all), so for me the type is even more illegible than for most (I have 20/20 vision) and I do honestly need to stop and squint to see. But I don't see how that matters. People have fallen for it, do we just say, oh it your own fault be more careful?
See here's the thing, why is it 'almost'? What stopped you from being supposedly 'scammed'? And yes, it is still your own fault if you 'fall' for it. In your case (especially), you are aware you have difficulty seeing due to your monitor and the current UI state, that would imply you should be far more vigilant if you have difficulty viewing anything in the AH.

People have not 'fallen' for it, they did not do their due diligence. If the font is the issue, should we not label all users as exploiting the AH then? The very fact you are selling an item with any number that requires the use of the 'poor font' would imply that at least some, if not all, are hoping you buy their item regardless of reason. Can you prove that any one person is exploiting? More importantly, can you prove that everyone isn't exploiting?


Why should we be giving someone carte blanche to rip people off just because some portion of the community can recognize the scam? Should we be saying, "Welcome to HEX New Player, before you start here is a list of scams you should avoid. We're not going to do anything about them, so be careful because its your own damn fault if you fall victim! Enjoy the game."

Because this isn't a scam. As stated repeatedly, there is literally nothing being done that is illegal nor against the rules!

malloc31
09-30-2015, 06:17 AM
Doesn't Hex care that it's loyal fan base is being treated like this.
Why would you allow this to go on, it's like allowing your friend to be mugged in front of you when you know you have the power to stop the mugging.


I was going to reply to Kami but then realized it was pointless, we must all remember what Kami says and what "hex" (developers etc.) think are not the same (at all). Hex (Phento) has already said they know about this and are working on a solution, so at this point let's just hope it comes soon.

Kami
09-30-2015, 06:21 AM
I was going to reply to Kami but then realized it was pointless, we must all remember what Kami says and what "hex" (developers etc.) think are not the same (at all). Hex (Phento) has already said they know about this and are working on a solution, so at this point let's just hope it comes soon.


Please explain how this is a scam. Are you unable to see the price? Are you paying for something different than intended?

I am well aware that it feels horrible if you didn't pay attention and ended up spending more than you wanted to. But, someone setting a high price for an item isn't scamming.

If someone is actually exploiting the game, we ban exploiters.

Because they know about it, does not mean they agree it's a scam either. Even I said that the AH UI needs love. :)

Ertzi
09-30-2015, 06:30 AM
If you don't care whether it is a scam, trick, or an exploit, why would it be moral/philosophical/ethical question? That's arguing in bad faith.

The fact is, as you stated, it is legal and within the rules.

Whether or not such behaviour is rampant is besides the point. If this is not a scam, trick, or an exploit, what is wrong with this behaviour?

Why would you penalize a person if this behaviour is not illegal nor out of the rules?

As I've stated, the proper way to combat this is to raise awareness if you don't like it. But witch hunts do not help anyone.

I will just reply to this, then I feel I have nothing else to contribute. I just wanted to make my stance clear, as I feel pretty strongly about this.

See, Kami, this is where the philosophical side kicks in. You seem to support this behavior, because you vehemently defend it. I do not. This is where we differ. No use arguing about it though. You feel one way, I feel the other. In my world, right and wrong are more important than following every rule to a T. Not everyone is the same though, and I understand that.

Let's just say that these "111" bandits are lucky I am not calling the shots on this one.

Kami
09-30-2015, 06:40 AM
See, Kami, this is where the philosophical side kicks in. You seem to support this behavior, because you vehemently defend it.

Except I don't condone scammers, exploiters, bad sportsmanship, etc. Nor do I support them. That isn't relevant in this scenario.

I am defending people who have not done anything wrong. That is all.

There currently exists a very vocal minority calling for bans and transaction reversals for these people when there is literally no proof that they are scamming/exploiting - they aren't.

This is where we actually differ.

rwn
09-30-2015, 06:40 AM
I was going to reply to Kami but then realized it was pointless, we must all remember what Kami says and what "hex" (developers etc.) think are not the same (at all). Hex (Phento) has already said they know about this and are working on a solution, so at this point let's just hope it comes soon.

Yes, they have to care somewhat about PR so they will add commas or something most likely but I have feeling they won't punish anybody, rightly so.



I will just reply to this, then I feel I have nothing else to contribute. I just wanted to make my stance clear, as I feel pretty strongly about this.

See, Kami, this is where the philosophical side kicks in. You seem to support this behavior, because you vehemently defend it. I do not. This is where we differ. No use arguing about it though. You feel one way, I feel the other. In my world, right and wrong are more important than following every rule to a T. Not everyone is the same though, and I understand that.

Let's just say that these "111" bandits are lucky I am not calling the shots on this one.

Thank god people like you are not near any court or law making body, it would be chaos.

Timlagor
09-30-2015, 06:44 AM
Agreed.
Commas can be added or whatever but can we stop blaming others because some people can't differentiate between 4 or 5 1s?

No we can't.

It's not the inability to distinguish that's the issue: it's people deliberately exploiting that inability. It's blatantly deliberate and not in any way beneficial to anyone but the scammer.
The CZE response is deplorable. I understand that they might not be able to fix it immediately but they should make is a priority and say so.
I do not think they can reasonably take action against such scammers unfortunately since the line is somewhat hard to draw and I don't think they are breaking the current TOS.

Kami
09-30-2015, 06:48 AM
No we can't.

It's not the inability to distinguish that's the issue: it's people deliberately exploiting that inability. It's blatantly deliberate and not in any way beneficial to anyone but the scammer.
The CZE response is deplorable. I understand that they might not be able to fix it immediately but they should make is a priority and say so.
I do not think they can reasonably take action against such scammers unfortunately since the line is somewhat hard to draw and I don't think they are breaking the current TOS.

Isn't it interesting that nobody has ever complained about sellers listing things for 111 and setting a buy-out for 1111? Or how about 222 and 2222? If visibility is the real issue, why has this not been an issue until now? Why has there been no outrcy about the AH font until now?

As I've said, there has been thousands of transactions since AH opened.

You guys keep arguing that these people are 'scammers' yet you don't think they break the ToS? How is that possible? Either they are scammers or they aren't. The ToS has clauses for dealing with scammers/exploiters, etc.

Ertzi
09-30-2015, 06:49 AM
Thank god people like you are not near any court or law making body, it would be chaos.

I like to think the world would be a better place, but we will never know, because I suck at law. :)

Timlagor
09-30-2015, 06:52 AM
Edit: If you think this is an exploit/scam still, ask yourself this, do you think you would fall for this exploit/scam? If you think the likelyhood is 'possible' then I'll re-evaluate my argument but I think the vast majority of people would not have any issue seeing the cost and making an informed decision even given the state of the current UI.


Not only do I think I could have fallen for it.
I think I could still fall for it even knowing it's a risk.


Isn't it interesting that nobody has ever complained about sellers listing things for 111 and setting a buy-out for 1111? Or how about 222 and 2222? If visibility is the real issue, why has this not been an issue until now? Why has there been no outrcy about the AH font until now?

As I've said, there has been thousands of transactions since AH opened.

You guys keep arguing that these people are 'scammers' yet you don't think they break the ToS? How is that possible? Either they are scammers or they aren't. The ToS has clauses for dealing with scammers/exploiters, etc.

Obviously the higher the number the more you can be scammed for and therefore the greater the impact.
I sent my ticket into support after seeing a pair of cards listed for 109-1111 (I bid them up to 112 since that was cheap for the card and I had the plat though I wasn't particularly interested in buying it). The 1s are appearing all over the AH and are a problem: primal packs just happen to be a particularly egregious example and the start of this thread.

222 is not a problem because the 2s are wider than the 1s. That is the whole point!

I assumed the TOS wouldn't cover this but if it does then there is no penalty they could levy that I would object to. Personally I'd favour a warning for all but the most egregious (especially given the slow response which may have led more people into considering this acceptable behaviour) but wouldn't be at all bothered if all the accounts involved were summarily terminated.

If commas are technically challenging for some reason perhaps they could block buyouts with multiple successive 1s.

I've changed my mind.
If they summarily banned these people I'd not be "not at all bothered": I'd cheer.

malloc31
09-30-2015, 07:11 AM
Kami maybe you really just do not understand the problem.

The cause is the Font is not being fixed width. This means different numbers have different widths (as opposed to a fixed width font every character has the same width. So now the number 11111 may have the same width as 1110 even though it is 10 times higher. Ok so now you are probably saying ok so why is this important. It is important because the human brain is conditioned to look at the place a number is in to give that number a value. We even name the places by the values; we have the tens's place, the 100's place, etc. So right now when you look in the AH and look at the numbers you are seeing numbers placed in the 100's place that are 1000's signifiers. This is an error in design that needs to be fixed ASAP.

As for why this error in design was not exploited earlier and complained about it earlier? Well no one willing to exploit it thought of doing it earlier and since it wasn't done no one thought to change it.

catacasa
09-30-2015, 07:12 AM
Isn't it interesting that nobody has ever complained about sellers listing things for 111 and setting a buy-out for 1111? Or how about 222 and 2222? If visibility is the real issue, why has this not been an issue until now? Why has there been no outrcy about the AH font until now?

As I've said, there has been thousands of transactions since AH opened.

You guys keep arguing that these people are 'scammers' yet you don't think they break the ToS? How is that possible? Either they are scammers or they aren't. The ToS has clauses for dealing with scammers/exploiters, etc.

Because, 2s and other numbers are not a problem. It is the tiny font width of the 1s that make this trick possible.

They are scammers because they are attempting to rip players off with the AH UI font issue. Because the AH UI is partly to blame, the "it is 100% the buyer's fault" is not fair to the buyer. Although, I'd still say it's ~95% or so the buyer's fault. To me, this is what makes it a greyish area because Hex is responsible for WHY this trick exists.

There are many reasons why players can fall for this trick - eyesight impairments or disabilities, ADHD, different monitor resolutions, different platforms, being tired, or simply being unaware the trick exists in the first place. I shouldn't need to wear reading glasses or squint in order to use the AH with confidence.

Ertzi
09-30-2015, 07:21 AM
Literally THE FIRST card I checked today (just a few seconds ago) has this [insert proper word] with both plat AND gold. Go check Ragefire. Nnnnngh. I was so annoyed I had to bid for the plat auction, although I have no need for this card.

Do you think this behavior will lessen or increase, if nothing is done?

Yoss
09-30-2015, 07:44 AM
HXE has already said it's a high priority to improve the UI for this issue. Why are we still arguing?

Tazelbain
09-30-2015, 08:17 AM
Isn't it interesting that nobody has ever complained about sellers listing things for 111 and setting a buy-out for 1111? Or how about 222 and 2222? If visibility is the real issue, why has this not been an issue until now? Why has there been no outrcy about the AH font until now?

As I've said, there has been thousands of transactions since AH opened.

You guys keep arguing that these people are 'scammers' yet you don't think they break the ToS? How is that possible? Either they are scammers or they aren't. The ToS has clauses for dealing with scammers/exploiters, etc.
Some sad logic going on here.

Just because this issue is finally getting wide notice doesn't it mean it hasn't be a problem for a while. The AH Data was missing missing most of it's data for months before complaints raised to a level to get the devs to look at it.

Secondly, scamming have been around forever. Just because HexEnt doesn't recognize it as a scam doesn't mean it's not a scam. They aren't final arbitrator for the concept of scams.

the_artic_one
09-30-2015, 09:53 AM
HXE has already said it's a high priority to improve the UI for this issue. Why are we still arguing?

Because people who post regularly on forums really enjoy arguing.

Lafoote
09-30-2015, 10:26 AM
Keep your eyes peeled on all auctions. Scamming is the hot new thing I guess. Eternal Guardian with 510 bid, 5111 buyout available now.

ziggarius
09-30-2015, 10:27 AM
For all you know, it could be a lazy seller, intentionally listing multiple items at 1111 bid price with a 11111 buyout because they want it to be bid on, not bought-out. Tapping a single key repeatedly is sure as heck faster than 10000 or 12345, etc.

A lazy seller wouldn't put a buyout If they want it bid upon. Hex AH doesn't require buyouts.

I have no comment to make upon the people doing this but dont suggest something like this Kami. If the game required a buyout then i wouldn't have picked this out.

Erukk
09-30-2015, 10:37 AM
I do find this situation slightly amusing. The ones that have bought the packs without fully looking at the price are usually doing so very quickly because they think they are taking advantage of someone else's pricing mistake are they not? Because not many sensible people would undercut the price to such a degree when the average price is much higher. Yet when the tables are turned, and it's them that got taken advantage of because they rushed through the buyout thinking they just made easy money, suddenly it's a horrible thing?

I haven't had to ask before, since I've never had too, but what's Hex's policy on when players accidentally lists a card for gold instead of platinum or if they forgot a zero and a quick and crafty buyer was able to swoop in and buy it before they could change it? Because this is the same exact situation. One player taking advantage of a mistake of another for profit.

bwarner
09-30-2015, 10:42 AM
Isn't it interesting that nobody has ever complained about sellers listing things for 111 and setting a buy-out for 1111?

It might be more interesting if it were true. Just a few pages back people were pointing out that things that normally sell in the hundreds now have buyouts of 1111.

And this certainly isn't the first time people have complained about this kind of behavior, this is just the latest technique. Search back just a few months and you'll find a similar thread with these quotes from Phenteo

"Yes, I stated it was the buyer's responsibility. But, that being said, if there is a player who understands there is a bug in the system that they can systematically exploit in order to lure unsuspecting buyers, this can cause issues for the team. We might see an increase in customer service tickets as well as lose players who would normally spend more money. Therefore this exploiting causes a negative affect to revenue and customer service."

"I stated it was the responsibility of the buyer to pay attention to what they are buying and for how much. But, I would rather stop someone from exploiting and causing us to lose more potential long-term players due to being scammed."

ziggarius
09-30-2015, 10:42 AM
Erukk, transactions are final assuming there are no exploits involved. (i.e. duplication, etc. Not just misread or entered numbers wrong).

Phenteo
09-30-2015, 01:16 PM
An update on the situation:

We will coordinate with Customer Service to reach out to players who are setting prices on the auction house to specifically grief players. We don't want to explain thresholds or search parameters here in efforts of not teaching players how to get around the system.

At the same time, the situation still remains a Buyer Beware. You need to take responsibility in paying attention to any auction you are bidding or buying out. Completed transactions cannot be reversed if you weren't paying attention or miss-clicked as there is a secondary confirmation button.

Edit to explain a little further:

We do not want to interfere with the economy and we want the community to set the price and let everything grow organically. We are looking into how to update the UI (such as adding commas) and the time frame with how quickly these improvements can come. What we are not saying is that we're regulating players from selling items, cards, packs, etc. for egregious prices. The situation remains the same where it IS buyer beware and it is your responsibility for if you purchase something by accident because you miss-clicked (twice) and/or you didn't pay attention to the original price.

What players are doing is NOT a scam NOR an exploit, but what is being done causes grief and an overall negative experience. Keep in mind this is still a very small percentage of all transactions that take place in the auction house on a daily basis.

hex_colin
09-30-2015, 01:26 PM
We will coordinate with Customer Service to reach out to players who are setting prices on the auction house to specifically grief players. We don't want to explain thresholds or search parameters here in efforts of not teaching players how to get around the system.

This is sad news. There should be zero interference in what folks can list their auctions for. End of story.

I agree that the tools we have to spot bad deals could be better, and that folks should stop being scamming low-lives, but that doesn't change the fact that HEX should not be involved in policing auction bids and buyouts.

juggernaut
09-30-2015, 01:33 PM
This is sad news. There should be zero interference in what folks can list their auctions for. End of story.

I agree that the tools we have to spot bad deals could be better, and that folks should stop being scamming low-lives, but that doesn't change the fact that HEX should not be involved in policing auction bids and buyouts.

I disagree with your first statement completely. Hex absolutely should be doing exactly this until the UI is updated. The Negative Play Experience for those affected (and the resulting discussions here and on reddit) vastly outweigh the needs of the griefers who have zero legitimate reasons to for acting in the manner as they are except to grief a portion of the playerbase.

nicosharp
09-30-2015, 01:39 PM
I disagree with your first statement completely. Hex absolutely should be doing exactly this until the UI is updated. The Negative Play Experience for those affected (and the resulting discussions here and on reddit) vastly outweigh the needs of the griefers who have zero legitimate reasons to for acting in the manner as they are except to grief a portion of the playerbase.
I agree - there are very relevant reasons why gaming companies take action against active "griefing". "Griefing" is typically achieved through some kind of mechanic or loophole in the game that allows the action to take-place. It doesn't mean it is a bug, exploit, or error in the system, as the system was designed. Instead, the instance of the mechanic or loophole in the game is being used to create a negative experience for others playing it for the sole benefit of the player exploiting it. That is why this is on HEX to do something. If they don't change the game, they do NEED to address the Griefers. It's the world we live in, even though the ones being griefed are getting griefed by their own human shortcomings/errors..

Kilo24
09-30-2015, 01:39 PM
This is sad news. There should be zero interference in what folks can list their auctions for. End of story.

I agree that the tools we have to spot bad deals could be better, and that folks should stop being scamming low-lives, but that doesn't change the fact that HEX should not be involved in policing auction bids and buyouts.

I do think that directly policing auction bids and buyouts is not a good idea, but I think that good automatic tools that, say, warn you when you're buying/selling something at a rate that's wildly off the market price of existing auctions would be a way to achieve those goals with few downsides.

hex_colin
09-30-2015, 02:01 PM
I disagree with your first statement completely. Hex absolutely should be doing exactly this until the UI is updated. The Negative Play Experience for those affected (and the resulting discussions here and on reddit) vastly outweigh the needs of the griefers who have zero legitimate reasons to for acting in the manner as they are except to grief a portion of the playerbase.

You might think you know what's going through their mind when they set those prices, but you actually don't know for sure. It could easily be someone who has no idea what they're doing. It's a stretch, I'll give you that, but it's a possibility. No one gets to decide another person's intent. And if you can't 100% for sure know the person's intent, you can't take any action against them, including putting any restrictions on how they use the AH.

Like most everything in life, folks need to rely on their personal responsibility.

ziggarius
09-30-2015, 02:07 PM
Phenteo just updated too explain further on his post.

Zophie
09-30-2015, 02:09 PM
This is sad news. There should be zero interference in what folks can list their auctions for. End of story.

I agree that the tools we have to spot bad deals could be better, and that folks should stop being scamming low-lives, but that doesn't change the fact that HEX should not be involved in policing auction bids and buyouts.

This exactly, I totally agree Colin. The only way I'd be able to agree with you more is if your name was Gwaer.

nicosharp
09-30-2015, 02:10 PM
Like most everything in life, folks need to rely on their personal responsibility.
This is also true for those individuals that may be 'unintentionally' pricing items for absurd amounts. They also have to take personal responsibility. Until there are more tools in place, I see no reason why we'd argue on the behalf of players that are quite obviously doing this on purpose. I'm not sure how personal responsibility can be mentioned without holding those doing this personally responsible for the negative outcry.

Phenteo
09-30-2015, 02:10 PM
Except what Phenteo said they're doing is opposite of what you just said. They're not taking action against these players nor restricting. Phenteo even updated to explain further

There is a chance where we may have to take actions more than just reaching out to a user who is intentionally griefing other players.

L1ght
09-30-2015, 02:20 PM
Colin what is the wrong with having customer service "reach out" to people repeatedly making these auctions with a warning explaining that what they are doing is causing grief? Should they continue, now 100% knowing that their actions are causing other players to have a negative experience, they can have their account restricted, banned, etc.

I still believe what they are doing amounts to exploiting and scamming in addition to griefing. But I am glad to see that HEX is taking action. This game and our community can only benefit from removing these human garbage.

PentaChills
09-30-2015, 02:20 PM
This is sad news. There should be zero interference in what folks can list their auctions for. End of story.

I agree that the tools we have to spot bad deals could be better, and that folks should stop being scamming low-lives, but that doesn't change the fact that HEX should not be involved in policing auction bids and buyouts.

Colin basically sums up exactly what needs to be said here.

the_artic_one
09-30-2015, 02:46 PM
This is sad news. There should be zero interference in what folks can list their auctions for. End of story.

On that note, why do we still have price floors?

bwarner
09-30-2015, 03:23 PM
Given the choice between protecting someone that has a 99.999% chance of being a drain on the community, or losing a community member that is doing absolutely nothing wrong, I can live with the .001% chance of someone being wrongfully punished. There's a reason that the American justice system has a standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt" and not "beyond any doubt that could possibly exist".

Kami
09-30-2015, 03:30 PM
Given the choice between protecting someone that has a 99.999% chance of being a drain on the community, or losing a community member that is doing absolutely nothing wrong, I can live with the .001% chance of someone being wrongfully punished. There's a reason that the American justice system has a standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt" and not "beyond any doubt that could possibly exist".

If you were banned for doing absolutely nothing wrong, what would be your reaction? Furthermore, what would be the reaction of future and even current players once they hear of it?

magic_gazz
09-30-2015, 03:32 PM
Given the choice between protecting someone that has a 99.999% chance of being a drain on the community, or losing a community member that is doing absolutely nothing wrong, I can live with the .001% chance of someone being wrongfully punished. There's a reason that the American justice system has a standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt" and not "beyond any doubt that could possibly exist".

The American justice system, known worldwide for its perfection.

Destrozeitor
09-30-2015, 03:59 PM
+1 for fixed-width characters and commas. Nobody wants scammers.

Eierdotter
09-30-2015, 04:39 PM
On that note, why do we still have price floors?

To promote the Gold currency for "garbage" cards

Phenteo
09-30-2015, 05:01 PM
This doesn't really need further discussion. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.