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MStreva89
10-02-2015, 06:12 AM
Ok so I stumbled upon a few of these situations when examining various cards and rulings that could be pretty crazy when actually applied. If any of these are incorrect, please clarify as to why CZE.

The first thing I want to put the spotlight on is the End of Turn sequencing (directly from the rule book):

END OF TURN
• Resolve any “at the end of your turn” effects.
• Place all the cards you played and any remaining cards from your hand into your
discard pile, and draw a new hand of five cards.
• Fill each empty slot in the Line-Up with a card from the top of the main deck.
• If the top card of the Super-Villain stack is face down, flip it face up and read
aloud the next Super-Villain’s First Appearance—Attack.

Clearly the "end of turn" effects resolve prior to discarding your hand, so can this be abused? Absolutely. According to the rules laid out by various CZE designers, you can order any effects that trigger simultaneously as you please.

^^^ Incorrect, refer to below for proper ruling.

• If a Brainiac randomly selects and plays Ra's Al Ghul from your opponent's hand, since both trigger at end of turn, you can force Ra's to the bottom of it's owner's deck prior to Brainiac returning it to the opponent's hand. Since you cannot negatively affect a player with cards that do not specifically allow such interaction, this normally wouldn't work, but since Ra's is now part of the deck and no longer considered "common knowledge" or "visible zone" then he stays there.

• Constantine (Character) sets a condition on the card he plays to destroy itself at the end of turn. Should that card be in your hand by the end of the turn, that card cannot destroy itself since he cannot affect a non-visible zone. This occurs since the card does not become visible until after end of turn effects resolve and the card hits the graveyard. An example would be to Constantine an Ongoing such as Molecular Vibration, discard it, then pick it up via Lasso of Lightning and not play it again. However, another question I have, is if you do this sequence and replay the card, is it still affected by Constantine since it's not the "same card" and may have detached Constantine's effect from it?

LRoq617
10-02-2015, 09:52 AM
Ok so I stumbled upon a few of these situations when examining various cards and rulings that could be pretty crazy when actually applied. If any of these are incorrect, please clarify as to why CZE.

The first thing I want to put the spotlight on is the End of Turn sequencing (directly from the rule book):

END OF TURN
• Resolve any “at the end of your turn” effects.
• Place all the cards you played and any remaining cards from your hand into your
discard pile, and draw a new hand of five cards.
• Fill each empty slot in the Line-Up with a card from the top of the main deck.
• If the top card of the Super-Villain stack is face down, flip it face up and read
aloud the next Super-Villain’s First Appearance—Attack.

Clearly the "end of turn" effects resolve prior to discarding your hand, so can this be abused? Absolutely. According to the rules laid out by various CZE designers, you can order any effects that trigger simultaneously as you please.

• If a Brainiac randomly selects and plays Ra's Al Ghul from your opponent's hand, since both trigger at end of turn, you can force Ra's to the bottom of it's owner's deck prior to Brainiac returning it to the opponent's hand. Since you cannot negatively affect a player with cards that do not specifically allow such interaction, this normally wouldn't work, but since Ra's is now part of the deck and no longer considered "common knowledge" or "visible zone" then he stays there.

• Constantine (Character) sets a condition on the card he plays to destroy itself at the end of turn. Should that card be in your hand by the end of the turn, that card cannot destroy itself since he cannot affect a non-visible zone. This occurs since the card does not become visible until after end of turn effects resolve and the card hits the graveyard. An example would be to Constantine an Ongoing such as Molecular Vibration, discard it, then pick it up via Lasso of Lightning and not play it again. However, another question I have, is if you do this sequence and replay the card, is it still affected by Constantine since it's not the "same card" and may have detached Constantine's effect from it?

I'm not certain about the Braniac ruling, but I recall seeing a similar question regarding Constantine back when Crisis 1 was originally released over a year ago. Essentially, Constantine's ability breaks the rules of the game somewhat. No matter where the card obtained via his ability is at the end of the turn, it has to be destroyed. There's not supposed to be a workaround for it.

SpiritDetective
10-02-2015, 01:27 PM
• Constantine (Character) sets a condition on the card he plays to destroy itself at the end of turn. Should that card be in your hand by the end of the turn, that card cannot destroy itself since he cannot affect a non-visible zone. This occurs since the card does not become visible until after end of turn effects resolve and the card hits the graveyard. An example would be to Constantine an Ongoing such as Molecular Vibration, discard it, then pick it up via Lasso of Lightning and not play it again. However, another question I have, is if you do this sequence and replay the card, is it still affected by Constantine since it's not the "same card" and may have detached Constantine's effect from it?

When that same Molecular Vibration is brought back into play via Lasso of Lightning, does it retain the +1 Power given by Constantine?

Matt_Hyra
10-02-2015, 03:04 PM
That Constantine ruling from Crisis 1 was overturned after we defined zones as a thing. You DON'T go searching zones that are not visible to at least one player. The only way a card truly hides is inside a deck (main or player), as you cannot look through those at will.

Re: Constantine effect-- When a card changes zones, remove any effects from it. So, your Constantine'd card in hand will not get destroyed. Your Molecular Vibration does not retain the +1 Power.

If you play a foe's Ra's al Ghul with Brainiac, if you resolve Ra's ability first, he will then be in a hidden zone (bottom of owner's deck), so the Brainiac "return to hand" effect will not resolve.

MStreva89
10-05-2015, 06:53 AM
That Constantine ruling from Crisis 1 was overturned after we defined zones as a thing. You DON'T go searching zones that are not visible to at least one player. The only way a card truly hides is inside a deck (main or player), as you cannot look through those at will.

Re: Constantine effect-- When a card changes zones, remove any effects from it. So, your Constantine'd card in hand will not get destroyed. Your Molecular Vibration does not retain the +1 Power.


Ok so maybe I need a little more clarification in terms of specific rulings with this.

Visible Zones: In-Play, Line-Up, Discard Piles, Destroyed Pile.

Non-Visible Zones: Players' Hands, All Decks.

From what you said, a player's hand is considered a visible zone in terms of a card effect properly affecting it, since you said "not visible to at least one player," but even in that sense, how would that ever apply if when a card changes zones, you remove any effects from it?

Furthermore, what you're saying is that if you Constantine a Molecular Vibration, then discard it, even in the discard pile it will not get destroyed since it shakes off the after effect of Constantine. Please clarify for future rulings as to whether you meant when a card changes "visible zones" or just "zones".

Matt_Hyra
10-05-2015, 04:17 PM
Reason I included the hand as a visible zone (as it's visible to one player), is that we still don't want stealing of cards to become permanent unless the card says so or you manage to get the stolen card into a deck. So basically, a card can remember ownership and where it needs to return even after changing zones. That includes "borrowing" cards from the Line-Up or main deck.

If you aren't talking about stealing cards, then cards that change zones into a hand DO lose all effects on them.

DIsForDoom
10-05-2015, 05:25 PM
I know it might seem irrelevant at this point or just frustrating in that I'm adding when this has been resolved but the End of Turn sequence isn't the one stated. The one printed in Teen Titans and Forever Evil is different.

GuruGuru214
10-05-2015, 09:21 PM
Well, since you brought it up...


The first thing I want to put the spotlight on is the End of Turn sequencing (directly from the rule book):

END OF TURN
• Resolve any “at the end of your turn” effects.
• Place all the cards you played and any remaining cards from your hand into your
discard pile, and draw a new hand of five cards.
• Fill each empty slot in the Line-Up with a card from the top of the main deck.
• If the top card of the Super-Villain stack is face down, flip it face up and read
aloud the next Super-Villain’s First Appearance—Attack.

This turn order is from the Heroes Unite book and is no longer current. The turn order was updated in Forever Evil, and that version remains current as of Teen Titans. The current turn order breaks things down a bit more.

1. Announce that you are ending your turn. Your turn is now over.
2. Place any cards remaining in your hand into your discard pile.
3. Resolve any "at the end of your turn" effects.
4. Place all the cards you played into your discard pile. Any unspent Power is lost.
5. Fill each empty slot in the Line-Up with a card from the top of the main deck.
6. Draw five cards.
7. If the top card of the Super-Villain stack is face down, flip it face up and read aloud the next Super-Villain's First Appearance--Attack.
8. The next player starts his turn.

So this:


Clearly the "end of turn" effects resolve prior to discarding your hand

Is no longer correct, though the cards that you played are still on the table.

MStreva89
10-06-2015, 05:40 AM
This turn order is from the Heroes Unite book and is no longer current. The turn order was updated in Forever Evil, and that version remains current as of Teen Titans. The current turn order breaks things down a bit more.

1. Announce that you are ending your turn. Your turn is now over.
2. Place any cards remaining in your hand into your discard pile.
3. Resolve any "at the end of your turn" effects.
4. Place all the cards you played into your discard pile. Any unspent Power is lost.
5. Fill each empty slot in the Line-Up with a card from the top of the main deck.
6. Draw five cards.
7. If the top card of the Super-Villain stack is face down, flip it face up and read aloud the next Super-Villain's First Appearance--Attack.
8. The next player starts his turn.


I hadn't even noticed that they had changed that. I didn't have one of the newer rulebooks on hand at the time, so this is where the confusion comes in. I edited my statement above to note that my statement of the rules was wrong.

But with Matt's clarification of cards losing any form of lingering effect once they leave a zone is quite intriguing and game changing in my opinion.

Now the last thing I want clarified from Matt is:

Do cards only shake off effects when going from Visible Zone to Non-Visible Zone or just changing Zones at all shakes off the effect? (We are referring to Non-Visible Zone as including the hand as we are not attempting to steal cards in this instance)

Matt_Hyra
10-06-2015, 10:45 AM
Changing zones in general. Not just visible to non.

MStreva89
10-06-2015, 12:22 PM
Changing zones in general. Not just visible to non.

Ok, so if that's the case:

If I Constantine a Molecular Vibration and discard it, it's moved zones therefore won't get destroyed.

If I give Time Travel to a Molecular Vibration and discard it, it's moved zones therefore won't return to the Line-Up.

If I Emerald Knight a Molecular Vibration and discard it, it's moved zones therefore won't return to the Line-Up.


The only instance where stuff does return to it's original zone is if the card is controlled by an opponent and non-intentionally designed disruption cards can affect your opponent's stuff UNLESS that card is no longer in a visible zone.

This all sound right?

Matt_Hyra
10-06-2015, 02:00 PM
Correct on the first one only.
The last two are examples of stealing cards. From the Line-Up in this case. The fact that you don't own a card is remembered unless inside a deck.