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View Full Version : Starshield Giveth! - PvE Spoiler



NOBLEStarshield
01-12-2016, 08:52 PM
A card spoiler for you guys <3
http://i.imgur.com/fSAVEZw.jpg

Enjoy :D

WolfCrypt
01-12-2016, 08:54 PM
*runs around hyper as a bunny on sugar high*

Mokog
01-12-2016, 08:59 PM
I like. Thanks for raiding the Phenteo stash of spoils!

Sithos
01-12-2016, 08:59 PM
oh my lordy what. How is this not a Legendary? :diamond::wild:

YourOpponent
01-12-2016, 09:03 PM
A card spoiler for you guys <3

4127

Enjoy :D

Okay...that...is actually good enough to make diamond/wild Coyotle playable as a deck without having to go tri-shard!

plaguedealer
01-12-2016, 09:03 PM
Now that is a chase card, this and stalker want to come into my collection.

Fateanomaly
01-12-2016, 09:04 PM
After all the duds, this is a pretty good card.

WolfCrypt
01-12-2016, 09:05 PM
Okay totally want this now

wolzarg
01-12-2016, 09:12 PM
3/3 with two abilitys on curve and its prohecy is it self as a bonus on top of the next creature ye that seems mildly playable. Would i be correct if assumed this is like the dwarf card part of a racial quest?

Zophie
01-12-2016, 09:21 PM
Wow, that is a pretty awesome card, seriously, PVE is gonna rock with cards like this!

Thanks Starshield <3

poizonous
01-12-2016, 09:44 PM
This card is honestly bonkers. And diamond wild on top of it

Flairina
01-12-2016, 10:41 PM
...and Starshield taketh away! For Starshield is all, and Starshield rules all! :O

Edswor
01-12-2016, 11:09 PM
I like the card and the art more. Keep them coming ;) .

Mejis
01-12-2016, 11:19 PM
Wow. Wow.
Wild diamond, stunning. Love the art too.
That's one sweeeet spoiler. Many thanks Starshield.

Related: I know it'll come with doublebacks, but is there any existing comprehensive resource of artist credits for cards we currently have?

RCDv57
01-12-2016, 11:57 PM
Well...
Coyotle Cleric Deck just got a WHOLE lot stronger.
If you get super lucky and drop an Alter turn 2 and this guy turn 3.

Ertzi
01-13-2016, 12:01 AM
This card is insane O_o

Gief!

WolfCrypt
01-13-2016, 12:13 AM
Well...
Coyotle Cleric Deck just got a WHOLE lot stronger.
If you get super lucky and drop an Alter turn 2 and this guy turn 3.

Boom. I beat a 1000 year old god in what ten seconds? (no one remembers that movie...)

Vorsa
01-13-2016, 02:47 AM
Awesome card - I'm enjoying 'rare spoiler week', and wondering what could possibly follow it... :rolleyes:

Obviously this one isn't PvP-balanced, but I'm suddenly optimistic about the dual-shard Coyotle and Necrotic in set 4; thus far Prophecy and Shift have both been high premium powers (meaning you get at best on on-curve vanilla troop once their power has been passed on) - maybe dual-shard versions will actually be viable troops in their own right though?

E.g. Prophet of the Sun without the +3/+3 part would good with a few heavy-hitters and large combat buffs in a deck.

Cainhu
01-13-2016, 02:47 AM
Wow, I like this card a lot. I didn't considered playing Coyotle in the PvE campaign until now.

I have more and more race/class combos i want to try every week.

Ertzi
01-13-2016, 04:12 AM
Wow, I like this card a lot. I didn't considered playing Coyotle in the PvE campaign until now.

I have more and more race/class combos i want to try every week.

And that is why HEX will be a smash hit after the Campaign launches ^_^

So many toys to play with... All we need is the sandbox.

IronPheasant
01-13-2016, 05:16 AM
thus far Prophecy and Shift have both been high premium powers (meaning you get at best on on-curve vanilla troop once their power has been passed on) - maybe dual-shard versions will actually be viable troops in their own right though?

With Prophecy the current rares and legends do generally either have an above par troop, or they have an infinite prophecy chain like Crowfeather and Starsight.

Shift seems like they could push it slightly more. Especially when you consider how Inspire costs 0 resource and works on multiple troops.

But then again we're talking about 2 to 5 cards in a set. Prophet of the Sun is definitely going to be at the top of Prophecy cards, being a chase rare. The uncommons and commons are not gonna be.

Valnir
01-13-2016, 05:36 AM
Wow!
Nice card, cool art! This will surely get its place in many PVE decks.

nickon
01-13-2016, 06:54 AM
I love this art, it's stunning!

selpai
01-13-2016, 08:41 AM
Lame. How does this fill a niche, create a synergy, or enable a combination? It's just a more powerful version of other cards. The art is nice, but it's otherwise unnecessary. Is this really what they want to do with PVE design? Maybe if it were unique...

knightofeffect
01-13-2016, 08:47 AM
I obviously love the card, but I'm not sure what they are getting after with the power level here.

The other rares we've seen have been decent with some really good potential for equipment to make then really strong. I think that is a good place for the PvE rares to be, and until this card HXE seemed to agree.

This however.... It would be decent without the prophecy ability at its cost, with the prophecy and it's stats, it would be really solid as a 5-cost. I mean, I guess they can stack all that on a 3 cost card, but it seems a bit silly.

Maylick
01-13-2016, 08:57 AM
Lame. How does this fill a niche, create a synergy, or enable a combination? It's just a more powerful version of other cards. The art is nice, but it's otherwise unnecessary. Is this really what they want to do with PVE design? Maybe if it were unique...

That's harsh... I won't even go for "how do some people fill a niche in the world", but that was the very first thought. It's harsh and unfair tho, such as your post.

Every single card does something. Even vanilla card without abilities. Just because they exist you can have something to compare with. What's good, what's bad.

Let's look at this one.That's a Diamond-Wild Coyotle with Prophecy. So naturally you will think about other Prophecy cards, like Lanupaw. Lifedrain and Crush are native abilities for those shards, and Coyotles are known for inspiring them. But both at the same time? That's good, also the stats bonus. Meanwhile it's a Cleric. We've already seen some powerfull Cleric cards, talents and progression paths, some more lifegain would be nice there. Not mentioning other trait-specified combos. Some of those are new and will see daylight in campaign first time.

TCG is a puzzle itself. Puzzle, where pieces come together to make something fun, intresting and desirable. Form of art if you will. Even in initial statement you compare Prophet to the other cards. Meaning metagame, game experience, hell, even market avaibility therefore gaming avaibility of that card. Why would you say it's lame if it's just another piece of the puzzle?

Evilgm
01-13-2016, 08:57 AM
I obviously love the card, but I'm not sure what they are getting after with the power level here.


It's good to have high powered marquee cards to act as the basis and engine for the deck. As long as the design is done in such a way as to prevent a significant number of them going in the same deck, balance is maintained.

It's the Spider-Man rule: Everybody gets one.

IronPheasant
01-13-2016, 09:26 AM
Haha "power level" concerns in a game with

http://www.hexprimal.com/wp-content/uploads/Crocosaur.jpg

http://www.hexprimal.com/wp-content/uploads/RoyalFalconer-318x446.jpg

http://www.hexprimal.com/wp-content/uploads/VampireKing.jpg

^ And these guys aren't even multicolored! You can play them with a stable reliable mana base! And you don't even have to wait for some dark uncertain future for the payoff to come! Crazy eh?

selpai
01-13-2016, 10:00 AM
That's harsh... I won't even go for "how do some people fill a niche in the world", but that was the very first thought. It's harsh and unfair tho, such as your post.

Every single card does something. Even vanilla card without abilities. Just because they exist you can have something to compare with. What's good, what's bad.

Let's look at this one.That's a Diamond-Wild Coyotle with Prophecy. So naturally you will think about other Prophecy cards, like Lanupaw. Lifedrain and Crush are native abilities for those shards, and Coyotles are known for inspiring them. But both at the same time? That's good, also the stats bonus. Meanwhile it's a Cleric. We've already seen some powerfull Cleric cards, talents and progression paths, some more lifegain would be nice there. Not mentioning other trait-specified combos. Some of those are new and will see daylight in campaign first time.

TCG is a puzzle itself. Puzzle, where pieces come together to make something fun, intresting and desirable. Form of art if you will. Even in initial statement you compare Prophet to the other cards. Meaning metagame, game experience, hell, even market avaibility therefore gaming avaibility of that card. Why would you say it's lame if it's just another piece of the puzzle?

You're being ridiculous. This is a clear and cut example of power creep; present in a game that blocks it's content to avoid it. It's a better version of the Stargazer, in every way, except for the single diamond threshold. It's 1 resource cheaper, gives an extra +1/+1, comes with 2 abilities, and gives 2 abilities through prophesy. It should absolutely be unique, or have an extra diamond threshold, or not have life-drain & crush on itself, or... something.

And am i the only one who thinks there should be mandatory equipment on some of these cards, as a detriment? Like, it always has the equipment when it's in your deck, it's attached permanently to the card. It could have a detrimental effect, and force occupy an equipment slot. For this, it could be an equipment limiting it to 2-3 copies in a deck, and be a headdress (helmet). This sort of thing could be used to put cards like Subtle Striker back into play in PvE. Subtle Striker could have a detrimental weapon.

knightofeffect
01-13-2016, 10:02 AM
Well vampire king is probably the best card in the game and a legendary.

Crocosaur is really, really strong for its rarity but can be played around and does have a high threshold requirement. The Falconer is one of my early favorite cards, but it is pretty darn easy to deal with.

In its current state I would put this card narrowly ahead of Crocosaur and significantly ahead of Falconer, which is basically puts it in the most premium rare power level in the game. Again, I really like the card and am excited to get 4. I don't think the power level is a real problem, just a bit different than the other cards that have been revealed so far. Just seems to me like an opportunity to make a legendary and bump the next soul cube or holiday they make down to rare. :)

Koz
01-13-2016, 10:10 AM
Now this is a good card. Nice to see a power rare after all of the "meh" cards they've been showing. This is how you create hype!

nicosharp
01-13-2016, 10:28 AM
Not bad, definitely fits a deck I've been brewing with Mistlord and their weapon equipment.

knightofeffect
01-13-2016, 10:40 AM
Haha, here's a fun series of events.

Turn 1 - Wild Shard, cloro or brave
T2 - Prophet
T3 - Free 7/7 crush, life drain, flight, steadfast angel of dawn

It's gonna happen for someone, and it will be glorious lol.

Yoss
01-13-2016, 11:03 AM
oh my lordy what. How is this not a Legendary? :diamond::wild:


Now that is a chase card, this and stalker want to come into my collection.


I obviously love the card, but I'm not sure what they are getting after with the power level here.

The other rares we've seen have been decent with some really good potential for equipment to make then really strong. I think that is a good place for the PvE rares to be, and until this card HXE seemed to agree.

This however.... It would be decent without the prophecy ability at its cost, with the prophecy and it's stats, it would be really solid as a 5-cost. I mean, I guess they can stack all that on a 3 cost card, but it seems a bit silly.

This card is way pushed. I hope the devs know what they're doing here.

Zophie
01-13-2016, 11:17 AM
You're being ridiculous. This is a clear and cut example of power creep;

I'm going to disagree here on the simple basis that this is PVE, and these cards are being designed and balanced around dungeon encounters, taking into consideration all the champion talents they'll be getting, as well as powerful PVE cards and equipment such as these. The power level in the new campaign is already going to be higher in general than we're used to, and we're going to see bigger badder bosses because of the generally higher power level that PVE decks+equip+talents provide to players. I would expect a lot more PVE cards that we haven't seen yet are also going sit around this power level. It's not power creep, it's balancing for bigger and harder PVE encounters, and it shouldn't be a surprise, we were told from the beginning that PVE cards are in a design space that allows for them to be a bit more powerful than in PVP, that's part of the reason why they make the distinction between PVE and PVP cards in the first place.

selpai
01-13-2016, 11:20 AM
Power creep has nothing to do with what the AI put out.

Svenn
01-13-2016, 11:23 AM
Aw man, I was hoping for all Underworld spoilers just to drive WolfCrypt crazy. ;)

This does look amazing. This is what I expected out of PvE cards... insane power levels. Balanced? Not if you're playing PvP... but in PvE this type of stuff could easily be the norm.


Haha "power level" concerns in a game with

http://www.hexprimal.com/wp-content/uploads/Crocosaur.jpg

http://www.hexprimal.com/wp-content/uploads/RoyalFalconer-318x446.jpg

http://www.hexprimal.com/wp-content/uploads/VampireKing.jpg

^ And these guys aren't even multicolored! You can play them with a stable reliable mana base! And you don't even have to wait for some dark uncertain future for the payoff to come! Crazy eh?

None of those are all that insane of a power level... Crocosaur is pretty great, but you can deal with it (not to mention 3 threshold makes it difficult to cast in a non-mono deck). Royal Falconer is super easy to deal with, not sure why that's on there. Vampire King is annoying and can be difficult to deal with sometimes since he does have Flight, but his ability rarely ever actually triggers from my experience (either non-troop is revealed or opponent's hand is empty).

nicosharp
01-13-2016, 11:27 AM
This card is way pushed. I hope the devs know what they're doing here.

It's probably just fine given the shard type you fall into for playing it. PvE exclusive curve options outside of Ruby and Artifact themes need to be pushed/explored.

We also need to be mindful of the only semi-reliable draw engine in diamond/wild at this time is Balthasar/Oakenhenge, so getting to relevant prophecy cards is still a gamble in PvE.

WolfCrypt
01-13-2016, 11:28 AM
I was wondering when someone tease me bou this spoil actually was a bit annoyed being so used to it lol

Koz
01-13-2016, 11:48 AM
Not bad, definitely fits a deck I've been brewing with Mistlord and their weapon equipment.

Mistlord decks are pretty awesome in general (with equip). I've already got a Prophecy version made and it's pretty good. Probably not as good as the pet version, or the "endless Pegasus" version, but pretty good. This card will def make the cut in it when I get my (virtual) hands on it.

Turboflex
01-13-2016, 12:19 PM
This is a PvE card guys, they can nerf it like they have with others (Xocoy, War Machinist equitpment). Also if we're seeing some pretty strong PvE cards, take a guess at how insane some of the AI boss abilities/cards are going to be? Stuff that make Uruunaz, War Bot & Xarlox look like chumps.

LNQ
01-13-2016, 12:27 PM
Also there is going to be limitations on deckbuilding and using PvP cards. What kind of limitations, I don't know, but limitations nonetheless. You won't be able to make your dream deck at least right from the start.

poizonous
01-13-2016, 12:38 PM
Never heard of limitations and to think about it sounds pretty stupid if i own a card and want it in a deck i can put it there

Silvanos
01-13-2016, 12:48 PM
I love this card. The ability and art are awesome. Can't wait to see what else is in store for PVE.

selpai
01-13-2016, 12:48 PM
He means that doing certain dungeons might require certain things in your deck, or a certain champion race, etc.

Aradon
01-13-2016, 12:54 PM
No, he means that Devs hinted that there would be deckbuilding restrictions when you're first starting the game. You'll need to level up or something before being able to include every card you want in your dream deck. Something about a method of deck progression, not just talent tree progression.

The statement was very vague.

LNQ
01-13-2016, 01:23 PM
Aradon got it right. There has been comments, vague ones at that, from Hex personnel and colin if memory serves right, that you will not be able to just go out and build whatever Wild West deck you want and take it to campaign.

Which makes 100% sense, as PvE in my opinion MUST have quite a bit of deckbuilding restrictions to avoid trivializing content.

If there would not be any limitations, PvE would become too much of a pay to win, or pay to play format, as content would have to be balanced for the top tier decks. There's a reason limited is more popular than constructed. Deckbuilding restrictions bring PvE closer to the limited experience, where all players need to adapt compared to no limits constructed. This levels the playfield.

Selanius
01-13-2016, 01:30 PM
This card is excellent, but its much weaker than Stalker which many people weren't freaking out about. I'd say this guy is around the same power level as Vampire King, maybe a little weaker.

RCDv57
01-13-2016, 01:37 PM
I was wondering when someone tease me bou this spoil actually was a bit annoyed being so used to it lol

To be fair you do kinda make it easy. If there's one thing I know about jokes, its that the easier they are to make, the more you will hear them. Just look at that poor poor chicken. All it wanted to do was cross the street just like any other normal law abiding citizen.

If you really want to shock people start raving about Dwarfs an' Orcs :p

poizonous
01-13-2016, 01:40 PM
RCD please don't give him incentive to make more threads lol

My take on deckbuilding limitations limits replayability, by limiting the amount of cards i can use in it

wolzarg
01-13-2016, 01:46 PM
This card is excellent, but its much weaker than Stalker which many people weren't freaking out about. I'd say this guy is around the same power level as Vampire King, maybe a little weaker.

A thousand times this i don't understand how anyone can lose their shit over this in a game where stalker exists. This lets you hit hard earliest turn 3 with some absurd things all linking up, stalker lets you potentially draw 22 cards turn 4.

I'm not saying both aren't good but the power difference is endless.

sukebe
01-13-2016, 01:54 PM
Power creep has nothing to do with what the AI put out.

You can't have powercreep with only 1 set of cards. This batch of pve cards will be our first complete pve set so there is nothing to creep from :-) It is stronger than pvp cards could be but we were told from the beginning that that was a likely possibility for pve cards.

knightofeffect
01-13-2016, 01:55 PM
I personally don't think stalker is very good.... Perhaps the risk will be worth it in PvE, but I think it wouldn't be good at all as a PvP card and if the PvE AI is up to snuff, just not verY good at all.

wolzarg
01-13-2016, 02:06 PM
How can this possibly be good if stalker isn't good?

plaguedealer
01-13-2016, 02:08 PM
I personally don't think stalker is very good.... Perhaps the risk will be worth it in PvE, but I think it wouldn't be good at all as a PvP card and if the PvE AI is up to snuff, just not verY good at all.

I will buy all the stalkers from you for 200 plat. I also get to say that I can stop after buying twenty cards.

Yoss
01-13-2016, 02:16 PM
Never heard of limitations and to think about it sounds pretty stupid if i own a card and want it in a deck i can put it there


No, he means that Devs hinted that there would be deckbuilding restrictions when you're first starting the game. You'll need to level up or something before being able to include every card you want in your dream deck. Something about a method of deck progression, not just talent tree progression.

The statement was very vague.


Aradon got it right. There has been comments, vague ones at that, from Hex personnel and colin if memory serves right, that you will not be able to just go out and build whatever Wild West deck you want and take it to campaign.

Which makes 100% sense, as PvE in my opinion MUST have quite a bit of deckbuilding restrictions to avoid trivializing content.

If there would not be any limitations, PvE would become too much of a pay to win, or pay to play format, as content would have to be balanced for the top tier decks. There's a reason limited is more popular than constructed. Deckbuilding restrictions bring PvE closer to the limited experience, where all players need to adapt compared to no limits constructed. This levels the playfield.

I can also confirm these rumors. Players should expect to see restrictions. You will not be running Blue Slaughter on your level 1 dude.


I personally don't think stalker is very good.... Perhaps the risk will be worth it in PvE, but I think it wouldn't be good at all as a PvP card and if the PvE AI is up to snuff, just not verY good at all.

For Stalker, you have to gamble the that that AI is stupid and/or has no answer. For this coyotle, you always get what you're expecting to get and it's quite strong.

WolfCrypt
01-13-2016, 02:23 PM
Are you allowed to confirm though? I mean I assume the recruiting was for Campaign Test Server. And that had a NDA.

Zophie
01-13-2016, 02:25 PM
Are you allowed to confirm though? I mean I assume the recruiting was for Campaign Test Server. And that had a NDA.

Wolfy please stop accusing people of breaking NDAs, it's not your place to do that. Yoss is simply confirming the comments we've heard in public forum posts, nothing more, nothing less. I can also confirm I have read the same thing.

Aradon
01-13-2016, 02:27 PM
Are you allowed to confirm though? I mean I assume the recruiting was for Campaign Test Server. And that had a NDA.

You've mentioned this test server several times now, but I haven't heard anything about one. Do you know something, or are you inferring from the post they made looking for bug testers about a month back? As far as I could tell, that was merely to add to the bug testing roster and help with localization. There's surely some behind-the-forums discussion for it that we can't see, but I don't think they're playing around in a test server.

plaguedealer
01-13-2016, 02:28 PM
Selpal, I think you need you calm down, no need to call people names.

If wolfcrpyt is in a super secret test server, I want in also.

Just going back to stalker, it doesnt take much thought to say stalker and leech go together. Blood has alot of ways to gain health. I cant imagine a card like stalker not being chase. The op spoiled card is good to obviously, however maybe not as good as stalker.

Zophie
01-13-2016, 02:34 PM
You're either stupid or delusional.

Disagreeing with someone is fine, but please leave the personal attacks on others out of it, it'd be nice to have a discussion about the card without vitriol like this muddying the topic.

selpai
01-13-2016, 02:37 PM
I stand by what i said. What, you want me to add a third option to it? He's not stupid or delusional, he's just too lazy/dissinterested to examine his position, or come up with a sensible argument?

Yoss
01-13-2016, 02:39 PM
I stand by what i said. What, you want me to add a third option to it? He's not stupid or delusional, he's just too lazy/dissinterested to examine his position, or come up with a sensible argument?

How about just not including any description of the other person whatsoever?

plaguedealer
01-13-2016, 02:42 PM
I stand by what i said. What, you want me to add a third option to it? He's not stupid or delusional, he's just too lazy/dissinterested to examine his position, or come up with a sensible argument?

Just because a new card is stronger then a old card does not necessarily mean there is power creep. You can only make so many completely unique card, having a completely homogenous collection is bad for the game. Like he said we are only on one book and we know little about the overall aspect of pve.

selpai
01-13-2016, 02:43 PM
Just because a new card is stronger then a old card does not necessarily mean there is power creep.

That's exactly what it means. Hex claims to be trying to avoid this by dividing their content into blocks, so that certain content can't be played with other content. The question here is whether a single diamond threshold is enough to gate this card. My thought is "absolutely not". Maybe if you double the diamond threshold. Maybe.

With the addition of this card, the Prophet of the Sun becomes the default auto include card, and the Stargazer becomes the niche. It's the very defenition of power creep. The quintessential example.

IronPheasant
01-13-2016, 02:45 PM
Guys look I found some power creep

http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/images/cards/big/ShinhareMilitia.jpg

http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/hextcg.gamepedia.com/thumb/4/4e/Cottontail_Recruiter.png/250px-Cottontail_Recruiter.png?version=6a57efd35635f07fd 69d6d98e90c5e8f

http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/hextcg.gamepedia.com/thumb/7/7e/Keeper_of_the_Wounded_Petal.png/250px-Keeper_of_the_Wounded_Petal.png?version=d111ab7aca eab089f6aac273e001fd1b

>:[ game is poo poo I expect a refund please mail me a check for $0 in cash pliz

...

(I do think life drain alongside crush puts it over the top a bit, but I do not really agree with the guys who're fine with 3 for 1 stuff like Crocosaur because "it dies to doomblade" but not this thing because it requires you to have a counter, or a better troop on the field, and potentially a doomblade or filk ape or whatever for the beast that'll poop out later. Then again, I put a very low premium on something that may or may not happen turns and turns into the future.)

plaguedealer
01-13-2016, 02:54 PM
That's exactly what it means. Hex claims to be trying to avoid this by dividing their content into blocks, so that certain content can't be played with other content. The question here is whether a single diamond threshold is enough to gate this card. My thought is "absolutely not". Maybe if you double the diamond threshold. Maybe.

With the addition of this card, the Prophet of the Sun becomes the default auto include card, and the Stargazer becomes the niche. It's the very defenition of power creep. The quintessential example.

Stargazer is a common rarity pvp card. You are comparing apples to oranges. It is like saying shinhare militia should be on par with recruiter, but its even stranger because you are comparing pve cards with pvp cards.

wolzarg
01-13-2016, 03:04 PM
I don't expect you will get a response from him but i do absolutely agree with you.

plaguedealer
01-13-2016, 03:22 PM
Oh hai! It's my first time posting, and i thought i would chime into this here civil and open discussion. Rarity shouldn't matter, as everyone is expected to at some point have access to all content, for free. If there are clearly superior versions of other cards, that are a higher rarity and therefor cost more to add to your collection, then Hex is suddenly pay to win. And it would still be power creep, just gated behind a pay-wall.

Cottontail Recruiter vs Militia is an interesting example because there's design space that isn't even alluded to in the basic card text. There's equipment that adds extra effects to the Militia and the two become very different cards as a result. People will still probably want the Recruiters only, since they generate Militia, but there are decks where one may possibly want to include both. At most, you can say that the Militia is a token that shouldn't exist to begin with; like the spectres the Madam & other cards create. There's no need for a separate spectre card that you can include in deck building.

The PvE vs PvP card argument is shortsighted, as PvP cards effectively become PvE cards after their block is through. I would even go as far as to say that this is what should happen, and that then those cards could be altered and balanced, while still keeping the pact with players that competitive content won't be nerfed/buffed ever.

How does it feel to be wrong all the time?

Hi have you had any experience in card games. Please name any tcg or ccg in the past 30 years where there has been complete homogeneity.

plaguedealer
01-13-2016, 03:26 PM
I'm not sure what you mean.

Sure I will make it easy, name any ccg or tcg where rarity does not matter.

WolfCrypt
01-13-2016, 03:27 PM
Just ignore them...

plaguedealer
01-13-2016, 03:28 PM
Just ignore them...

Your right, I get sucked in at times.

WolfCrypt
01-13-2016, 03:43 PM
What is power creeping? I collect TCGs but the finer details of them elude me

plaguedealer
01-13-2016, 03:49 PM
At wolfcrypt

Power creep is used alot in mtgo and people also complain it happens in hearthstone. Basically a new set comes out that is much better then the previous set. The theory is that the new set is much better because they want you to buy it.

There were certain sets in mtgo that were extremely strong compared to previous sets.

Power creep is almost impossible to argue in this game beause there are so few sets. Saying that a pve card is stronger then a pvp card is also kind of ridiculous.

nicosharp
01-13-2016, 03:54 PM
In terms of PvE vs. PvP cards - and their overall strength - despite rarity, I'd always like to see 1 of 2 things from every PvE card.

1) Either it is super fun to mess around with based on what it can achieve in the game (broken combos/etc.)
2) It is better than it's PvP equivalents because it can be.

With both the above, it also fits thematically and adds to the storyline.

PvE cards should be broken, and comparisons should not be made to PvP cards, outside of potentially how broken some PvP cards can be with the addition of equipment. Broken is fun, when broken does not effect the game competitively.

Zophie
01-13-2016, 04:00 PM
Explain to me how this is power creep when we're literally still in the first book of PVE cards and the full PVE campaign hasn't been released yet? When book 2 of PVE cards come out and we find them to be more powerful than book 1, then you can argue about whether PVE book 2 is full power creep, but this isn't power creep, this is baseline PVE power.

Gwaer
01-13-2016, 04:02 PM
PvP cards will become PvE only cards with time.

vs.

PvE cards will always only be usable in PvE.

That's the only difference, as the game stands right now.

this is a very reductionist view. Any flashback event where the sets that have rotated out of whatever format and become playable again in a pvp setting are now suddenly not equal to any pve card. There's also no guarantee that there won't always be a pvp format available for every set forever. So far nothing has rotated out so we don't know how that will be handled.


Don't get me wrong, I haven't actually read or followed this thread, and I think anyone complaining about power creep is an idiot. It's similar to a gear treadmill in most cases, it makes games interesting and gives goals to a certain class of player. Not that I think there is an example of power creep available for hex, as zophie said the game is very young, it may be that they haven't yet established the baseline they're happy with.

IronPheasant
01-13-2016, 05:32 PM
I'm fundamentally of the opinion that PvE cards should occupy the same power band as PvP cards.


What is power creeping? I collect TCGs but the finer details of them elude me

Power creep is the effect of how power creeps into something.

In card games its how functionally strictly better versions of something get printed.

You have a deck. A new set comes out. Some cards in the new set are better for your deck and therefore the set matters. Or, none of the cards in the new set improve your deck and therefore the new set does not matter.

This is why only roughly 15 to 20% of the rares are "chase rares" (desirable cards worth chasing) and why there's a rotating standard format. It keeps decks churning and it keeps the money rolling in.

plaguedealer
01-13-2016, 05:39 PM
I'm fundamentally of the opinion that PvE cards should occupy the same power band as PvP cards.



Power creep is the effect of how power creeps into something.

In card games its how functionally strictly better versions of something get printed.

You have a deck. A new set comes out. Some cards in the new set are better for your deck and therefore the set matters. Or, none of the cards in the new set improve your deck and therefore the new set does not matter.

This is why only roughly 15 to 20% of the rares are "chase rares" (desirable cards worth chasing) and why there's a rotating standard format. It keeps decks churning and it keeps the money rolling in.

Just to chime in, I agree that pve cards should generally share the same power level as pvp cards (I have a different view then nico). Obviously more powerful pve cards will be needed if there are extremely difficult pve bosses.

WolfCrypt
01-13-2016, 05:42 PM
I see thanks

nicosharp
01-13-2016, 06:36 PM
Just to chime in, I agree that pve cards should generally share the same power level as pvp cards (I have a different view then nico). Obviously more powerful pve cards will be needed if there are extremely difficult pve bosses.

That is fair, and I can't argue that PvE cards are "required" to be better to have a place in the game. I feel like we will tend to see above average cards for the same curve in PvE than we would in PvP because a PvE experience is not tied to PvP balance, nor is AI or encounter play.

Having a 3 drop in PvE that is questionably better than any other 3 drop in PvP is not something I am worried about.

The biggest incentive I can think of to have PvP on par to PvE in-terms of power is to "sell" PvP to F2P PvE only players. That is the only place, outside of chase equipment interactions that HEX needs to differentiate itself to promote it's marketing model. They are already doing that by associating Legendary and Rare equipment to Rare and Legendary cards, primarily. HXE has work to do in the actual power-level those higher-end equipment provide for higher-end cards, but that is a smart design strategy.

Having chase PvE above PvP power-level without equipment is smart as well, if they make the chase PvE hard to obtain. I have a feeling this card will not be an exception.

Aradon
01-13-2016, 06:43 PM
The biggest incentive I can think of to have PvP on par to PvE in-terms of power is to "sell" PvP to F2P PvE only players. That is the only place, outside of chase equipment interactions that HEX needs to differentiate itself to promote it's marketing model. They are already doing that by associating Legendary and Rare equipment to Rare and Legendary cards, primarily. HXE has work to do in the actual power-level those higher-end equipment provide for higher-end cards, but that is a smart design strategy.

I think the biggest incentive is so that players don't feel like half their collection is invalidated because it's from a weaker card pool. They should be on par so that we're not playing two separate games in the same client: one where we use tame PvP cards against other players, and one where we use our other, non-interacting card set of PvE cards to play the campaign. There needs to be a viability to using our whole collection, or else each side will feel alienated from the other when there should be mingling of PvP cards into PvE.

What I really believe is best is for PvE decks to derive their higher strength from equipment. That way PvP cards can be enhanced just as readily as PvE cards.

Gwaer
01-13-2016, 06:51 PM
I think the biggest incentive is so that players don't feel like half their collection is invalidated because it's from a weaker card pool. They should be on par so that we're not playing two separate games in the same client: one where we use tame PvP cards against other players, and one where we use our other, non-interacting card set of PvE cards to play the campaign. There needs to be a viability to using our whole collection, or else each side will feel alienated from the other when there should be mingling of PvP cards into PvE.

What I really believe is best is for PvE decks to derive their higher strength from equipment. That way PvP cards can be enhanced just as readily as PvE cards.

doesn't that just make pve cards a contrivance or gimmick for f2p? What is even the point at that point. The fact is there are two different games, there's PVP and PVE. They serve different purposes, and different groups of people.

nicosharp
01-13-2016, 06:57 PM
I'm fairly sure that's already happening Aradon.
Some good examples already in the game are: Slaughtergear's Reaver/Replicator, Bramble crawlers/thickets, Dream Stag, Xocoy, Brutal Commander, Leeching Burrower, Fertile Engorger

for PvP - there are plenty of examples as well...

I think some people though are speaking with the perspective that PvE cards will soon reach a point of saturation where they are not only supplementing decks, but creating decks entirely. I think we may still be a few years away from a point in time where that is possible, but I hope I am wrong. PvE cards still seem to be thematic and equipment option fillers that offer incentive to play a deck differently, but all those decks require a hefty majority % of PvP cards to function.

IronPheasant
01-13-2016, 07:01 PM
doesn't that just make pve cards a contrivance or gimmick for f2p?

No.

But I do concede the hard monetization split is kind of odd.

And the whole idea of casual PvP that allows equipment and PvE cards even odder.

And putting a numeral "1" on a bunch of PvE cards from WILDLY different sources oddest of all.


I think some people though are speaking with the perspective that PvE cards will soon reach a point of saturation where they are not only supplementing decks, but creating decks entirely.

They kind of would have to be able to, to have a game.

Of course they would be more powerful with access to PvP cards as long as the PvE cards aren't busted beyond belief. A bigger pool and all that.

Aradon
01-13-2016, 07:09 PM
doesn't that just make pve cards a contrivance or gimmick for f2p? What is even the point at that point. The fact is there are two different games, there's PVP and PVE. They serve different purposes, and different groups of people.

I don't really see your reasoning here. I could enjoy PvE perfectly fine with just my PvP collection. The fact that I can get new cards to complement it is added enjoyment. The reason they can't be re-inserted into PvP is for the sake of the economy (freely-generated cards), but I don't get the idea that it would be a gimmick or side-show for the game if you could use PvP cards effectively. Are you talking about the need for progression & earning the PvE cards to get better decks?

Personally, I feel like making PvP cards nearly obsolete is more gimmicky than the opposite, since it's so far detached from the core PvP gameplay.


I'm fairly sure that's already happening Aradon.
Some good examples already in the game are:

Yeah, I don't disagree. I don't exactly like the way they're dominating things, but I also don't think it's too late to turn around and take a different course. I have my hopes for my own vision of the game, but I think your vision is more in line with one specific thought from Cory.

That is, legendaries should be powerful because they're hard to obtain, and getting them should feel empowering and rewarding.

wolzarg
01-13-2016, 07:38 PM
My hopes for pve is that pve cards are noticably stronger so we can have a different power level. Does it matter if things are balanced so that the challenge is based on the card pool? Not really but i still want pvp to be in reference to another game at about standard power level. While i want pve to be somewhere in between modern and legacy so you can do some truly unfair things because you don't have to subject an opponent with emotions and hopes and dreams to them.

TL : DR extremely strong and complex combos are fun to do, they are not fun to have done to you so i want them in pve.

sukebe
01-13-2016, 10:13 PM
Explain to me how this is power creep when we're literally still in the first book of PVE cards and the full PVE campaign hasn't been released yet? When book 2 of PVE cards come out and we find them to be more powerful than book 1, then you can argue about whether PVE book 2 is full power creep, but this isn't power creep, this is baseline PVE power.

I said the exact same thing earlier but it did not seem to get through as it appears to have been ignored :-)

As for power level of pve vs pvp: I think it should vary. this card is about as strong as I would like to see rare pve cards get as it is indeed very impressive. What I most care about in the pve vs pvp area is variety. I do not want to see simple pve reprints of pvp cards. as long as that doesn't happen to often I am sure I will be happy :-)

LNQ
01-13-2016, 11:19 PM
In my opinion PvE cards should simply have a bigger power spectrum. It should include plenty of cards that match the power level of PvP cards in order for players to be able to make a deck from PvE cards only. But it should also include cards that are off the scale, because it is fun and it can, as meta balance is not important in PvE.

IronPheasant
01-15-2016, 06:05 PM
Ok, having thought it over, I would be perfectly fine with it at:

3/3 with Lifedrain
Prophecy - +3/+3 and Crush

So the crush can get onto some giant beast where it's most useful, but it won't get the huge ~16 point swings a fat guy with lifedrain can give you.

A 3/3 with both the keywords would be completely playable at three without the prophecy bonus at all (really good with pump spells like Wild Growth and smash to the ground) and the current card really is too much.

think about it~~

WolfCrypt
01-15-2016, 06:14 PM
Prophecy kinda random. It relies on waiting so you can get something OP as all hell. The AI got cards that are broken we need broken cards to compete.

Yoss
01-15-2016, 07:01 PM
The AI got cards that are broken we need broken cards to compete.

I completely disagree. If the balance you speak of is out of whack, it is the AI encounter design that needs to change, not the PvE cards. PvE cards should be the same power level as PvP, but should explore design space that PvP can not or will not for whatever reason.

WolfCrypt
01-15-2016, 07:02 PM
Everyone thinks every card spoiled is stupid or OP as hell seesh. This card works for me and I use Coyotles so.

poizonous
01-15-2016, 10:16 PM
Actually wolf most of the spoilers have been underwhelming so the first sign of a good card and people scream OP. This card is honestly a top tier card in PvP maybe we can get a card resembling it in set 4

WolfCrypt
01-15-2016, 10:30 PM
Actually wolf most of the spoilers have been underwhelming so the first sign of a good card and people scream OP. This card is honestly a top tier card in PvP maybe we can get a card resembling it in set 4

I'm easily impressed so......

wolzarg
01-15-2016, 11:14 PM
Actually wolf most of the spoilers have been underwhelming so the first sign of a good card and people scream OP. This card is honestly a top tier card in PvP maybe we can get a card resembling it in set 4
Honestly that card but with WSD would probably be fine in pvp.

poizonous
01-15-2016, 11:38 PM
Making it triple threshold restricts decks it could go in for PvP and i wouldn't care for it so much, it would actually be a huge nerf to it

Yoss
01-16-2016, 12:58 AM
Making it triple threshold restricts decks it could go in for PvP and i wouldn't care for it so much, it would actually be a huge nerf to it

Nerf is the whole point.

poizonous
01-16-2016, 01:05 AM
Yes but a nerf that hard is completely unnecessary and makes it very borderline unplayable

Aradon
01-16-2016, 01:07 AM
I'd disagree. It's very strong as is. I think a hard nerf would be appropriate. I'm not sure the one suggested is the right one (depending on whether or not they want the card to be a big payoff for tri-shard decks, or just be a lesser-payoff for dual-shard coyotle), but I don't think it's a great balance point as it is.

WolfCrypt
01-16-2016, 01:21 AM
I just can't get over how bitchy everyone is over every spoil just be happy it's awesome. We'll worry bout whether it's too powerful or weak when Camp is out....

poizonous
01-16-2016, 01:34 AM
Most of us don't need to wait to know, that's what happens with years of tcg experience but i am really thinking this card is fine as is for pve. It's prophecy effect shouldn't count towards power level because there will be games where that is just extra words on the card

LNQ
01-16-2016, 01:58 AM
The PvE PvP distinction in Hex is different than in any other tcg. No one can possibly know how this pans out yet.

sukebe
01-16-2016, 04:04 AM
I wouldn't want to see this in pvp as it is too strong. I have no idea how strong it can be considered in pve as we know so little of it. I will assume it is likely on the strong end of the scale though as it is very impressive.

I agree with those saying that no matter how good/experienced you are with card games we know to little about how pve will work to properly evaluate cards fully.