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Counter
01-20-2016, 07:28 AM
Ok so many people are still anxiously waiting for PVE. It's late, sure I get it. But realistically, aren't we really only talking about a few hours of fun? When the Arena thing came out, it was fine a few times, but it's not like I can play it all day every day.

How is this dungeon thing gonna last longer than a day or two? Did I miss something?

I'm not talking about will it be fun or not, but just wonder what expectations could realistically be. Even say a top tier AAA rpg game may only have 20 hours of gameplay.

Sure I'll take a look at the dungeon, but I can't imagine it's gonna offer than much entertainment.

On the other hand, PVP is entertaining when a new set is released, but really it wears off after about 6 weeks and you start wondering when a new set is due out.

I'm just curious, am I missing something on why PVE should hold my attention for more than a day or so?

Evilgm
01-20-2016, 07:34 AM
We've no idea how many matches the campaign consists of, but honestly if you aren't going to be entertained by trying out new decks and different Champions against fights you've done before then it mightn't be a good fit for you.

Gregangel
01-20-2016, 07:44 AM
And he said that the campaign will have a 7 years of developpement

Kroan
01-20-2016, 07:49 AM
150+ Arena Runs and counting says different mate :D

In all seriousness though. Like every MMO, this game needs frequent updates to keep people interested and coming back. I expect nothing less, and with the first batch of PvE in place hopefully we'll see new content every now and then with new things to explore.

Fred
01-20-2016, 07:49 AM
And he said that the campaign will have a 7 years of developpement

He said that at the moment, they have 7 years worth of content in the pipeline in terms of lore and storytelling. What that represents depends entirely on how often they will release new content, and how much content there will be in each release.

WolfCrypt
01-20-2016, 07:56 AM
It looks like there are hundreds of encounters conversations and maybe 60 towns just on launch I say that's more then a day.

plaguedealer
01-20-2016, 07:56 AM
Not really sure the purpose of this thread, we know little to nothing about the leveling experience or the number of encounters. According to others, there are dungeon encounters in individual nodes (dungeons can have 5 to 15 encounters).

Charko
01-20-2016, 08:04 AM
The arena gameplay last 1 hour or less. But doing it with different archetype represent a lot of time. Try doing it with a mill deck or a triumvirate deck. This is how you can add some "gameplay" to your gameplay. The same could be said about Fallout and the Witcher its a one time story but that can be played so differently depending on your choice. So saying the campaign will have 20 hours or so, is very wrong in my opinion

WolfCrypt
01-20-2016, 08:06 AM
Judging from stream it'll take a long time to beat it and who knows in a few months we might get the other three classes

katkillad
01-20-2016, 08:08 AM
They confirmed there's only 3 classes right now and I'd like for them to tell us if we are level capped at the first talent tree.

WolfCrypt
01-20-2016, 08:09 AM
They confirmed there's only 3 classes right now and I'd like for them to tell us if we are level capped at the first talent tree.

I think only first level of tree shown in stream was not to show everything. Hex is spoiling Campaign but at same time being vague so we're actually excited

bootlace
01-20-2016, 08:11 AM
Every race/class combination will be a different experience. That's 48 different combinations eventually (24 at launch) - with different rewards based on faction, deck restriction grid, talent trees, class cards, talent traits etc. That's ALOT of replayability.

If they manage to add different difficulty modes eventually, then we're really in for a treat. They probably also figured out the loot drop rates better now so you won't just get all the legendaries on your first few runs, a lot of items to chase! Then you have the whole mercenary system which will be icing on the cake. Lots of stuff to look forward to!

WolfCrypt
01-20-2016, 08:17 AM
I can'tt wait for Campaign it'll take days to get through all this stuff.

Angmar
01-20-2016, 08:19 AM
On the other hand, PVP is entertaining when a new set is released, but really it wears off after about 6 weeks and you start wondering when a new set is due out.

Individual results will vary.

All I can say is my attention span seems significantly different than yours.

LNQ
01-20-2016, 08:20 AM
The deckbuilding restrictions is where it's at. Different classes and different races make you build different decks, as long as the restrictions are working well enough to encourage very different archetypes per class.

If different classes have different quests and possibly different loot available to them, this will provide a LOT of replayability just for the options available at launch.

WolfCrypt
01-20-2016, 08:21 AM
Individual results will vary.

All I can say is my attention span seems significantly different than yours.

Counter seems to be purely PVP no matter what comes out and sees it as very boring.

Catalonia
01-20-2016, 08:23 AM
650+ arena runs and i still try to do a couple runs every day, in fact arena has been the most rewarding part of the game for me lately (you dont get so penalised by screw/flood/mulls as in competitive play). sad story but true story

Xenavire
01-20-2016, 08:23 AM
It looks like there are hundreds of encounters conversations and maybe 60 towns just on launch I say that's more then a day.

Just to clarify for you, each node is not a town, it is an event. Yes, some nodes may be towns (or more specifically, panoramas), or dungeons, but the bulk of them will be encounters, or dialogue. Cory said as much in the stream.

Tazelbain
01-20-2016, 08:24 AM
Welcome to MMOs, newb.

WolfCrypt
01-20-2016, 08:24 AM
Just to clarify for you, each node is not a town, it is an event. Yes, some nodes may be towns (or more specifically, panoramas), or dungeons, but the bulk of them will be encounters, or dialogue. Cory said as much in the stream.

I musta missed that thanks.

Aradon
01-20-2016, 08:26 AM
Well, the OP's wording makes me think you're under the impression it's just one dungeon? But it should be a series of dungeons, with branching paths. If you play for the lore, it'll take a while to explore everything. If you play for the deckbuilding fun, you'll have plenty of champions and decks to try. Leveling them to a point where they're flexible enough for you to try all the decks you want will probably take some time. If you're playing for the loot rewards, we don't really know much about them, so it's hard to say. If you're playing to 'beat' every encounter, it'll probably go by pretty quickly.

The core gameplay loop is: build deck, beat encounter, get loot to enable new deck, then repeat. If you just want to do the encounters and 'get it done' then you won't be engaging their intended gameplay loop, so it'll be brief.

It's up to you how long this content lasts, but it should be notably larger than Frost Arena, so for the general playerbase, it'll last probably half a year or so.

WolfCrypt
01-20-2016, 08:28 AM
Frankly I plan on taking my time and exploring every encounter from a roleplayer prospective.

Tazelbain
01-20-2016, 08:36 AM
AI and cheating. If the AI is good and the the amount of cheating is low, I will play the hell out this. But I am not so confident.

WolfCrypt
01-20-2016, 08:38 AM
AI and cheating. If the AI is good and the the amount of cheating is low, I will play the hell out this. But I am not so confident.

The AI not supposed to cheat ever

Seraph_Hex
01-20-2016, 08:40 AM
650+ arena runs and i still try to do a couple runs every day, in fact arena has been the most rewarding part of the game for me lately

My sincerest condolences.

Tazelbain
01-20-2016, 08:47 AM
The AI not supposed to cheat everI consider cards like "Word of Xentoth" cheating. They are unfair cards give to AI to make for them being bad.

WolfCrypt
01-20-2016, 08:51 AM
I consider cards like "Word of Xentoth" cheating. They are unfair cards give to AI to make for them being bad.

If you think the AI having AI only cards cheating and they shouldn't have em don't play Camp.

Tazelbain
01-20-2016, 08:55 AM
I didn't say all AI cards are cheating.

WolfCrypt
01-20-2016, 08:58 AM
I didn't say all AI cards are cheating.

"Some encounters in Campaign will make Xarlox cry." So his AI only card is just tip of iceberg of unfair AI cards

Koz
01-20-2016, 09:08 AM
They confirmed there's only 3 classes right now and I'd like for them to tell us if we are level capped at the first talent tree.

Yeah, I can't believe that one of the questions asked during the stream wasn't if the skill tree is capped to the first third at launch, or if it's just capped when you begin the campaign. Out of all the questions being asked about PvE, this has been one of the big ones.

Tazelbain
01-20-2016, 09:12 AM
"Some encounters in Campaign will make Xarlox cry." So his AI only card is just tip of iceberg of unfair AI cardsWhich is will be very fun limiting to me. An idiot can dream up unfair cards to make the dumbest AI difficult. I want my card playing to matter in the outcome of the match, cheater AI cards and bad AI and ultra-random AI ability make my play irrelevant.

WolfCrypt
01-20-2016, 09:18 AM
Well then you shouldn't play camp

Svenn
01-20-2016, 09:23 AM
Which is will be very fun limiting to me. An idiot can dream up unfair cards to make the dumbest AI difficult. I want my card playing to matter in the outcome of the match, cheater AI cards and bad AI and ultra-random AI ability make my play irrelevant.

I'm curious as to what your qualifier is for "cheater AI cards". Any card with power level over that of a player card? That's definitely going to happen. Cards that can't be interrupted? Something else?

Evilgm
01-20-2016, 09:23 AM
Well then you shouldn't play camp

Please stop. I understand you feel a compunction to post every 17.3 seconds, but telling someone they shouldn't play because you've decided to interpret an offhand comment in a certain way isn't helpful. This isn't the first time you've made statements of your assumptions are though they are facts, and when everyone is trying to find accurate information it's very misleading.

There is little doubt that there will be very difficult PvE encounters, because levelled up PvE Champions will be much more powerful than the current crop of PvP Champions. But until we're actually playing those encounters we have no idea what they entail.

Tazelbain
01-20-2016, 09:28 AM
Well then you shouldn't play campHense my disappointment, but I am still clutching on the glimmer of hope that AI will be significantly less terrible than frost arena. And Hex have won't have to lean as hard on the crutch of unfair cards to make the game challenging. But with reveal of the rarity limits that may change situation.

Xenavire
01-20-2016, 09:32 AM
Which is will be very fun limiting to me. An idiot can dream up unfair cards to make the dumbest AI difficult. I want my card playing to matter in the outcome of the match, cheater AI cards and bad AI and ultra-random AI ability make my play irrelevant.

I think the true question is 'are these OP AI cards going to be unfair for the sake of difficulty, for the sake of letting the AI win (cheats), or for the sake of creating a deckbuilding puzzle?'

If it is purely to get the AI wins it wouldn't have otherwise gotten (for example, Xarlox often cannot mill a player fast enough without the words) then yes, that feels like cheating. However, something with an already strong deck (think Uruunaz) having a few above-curve cards just adds to an existing challenge.

And deckbuilding puzzles are puzzles, figure them out or look up a guide.

knightofeffect
01-20-2016, 09:40 AM
Hense my disappointment, but I am still clutching on the glimmer of hope that AI will be significantly less terrible than frost arena. And Hex have won't have to lean as hard on the crutch of unfair cards to make the game challenging. But with reveal of the rarity limits that may change situation.

I'm not sure how recently you've delved into the arena, but it is already significantly more intelligent than it was previously. I'd say the last month or so has seen it correctly and accurately use its removal, combat tricks, swing/double block decisions, etc. At this point it actually makes more sense to play against the AI as a human making decisions rather than obvious AI deficienct tendencies, which was a bulk of how I used to play arena.

That being said, I do feel like Word of Xentoth is a bit over the top, although that is probably the only one. Do I expect more over the top power level of opposing PvE cards? Absolutely! Just like Xarlox, they should be the exception, not the rule for the sake of variety and non trival content. I'd rather have an encounter require some epic rng to beat and get the loot rather than trivial content that you have to repeatedly grind to get the best loot. Not saying hex PvE won't have a lot of grinding as well, but the relationship between completion rate and drop rate are directly proportional in loot economy management.

Also, this new PvE dungeon version of the AI is supposed to be even better than the latest evolved arena AI :)

Lafoote
01-20-2016, 10:41 AM
It looks like there are hundreds of encounters conversations and maybe 60 towns just on launch I say that's more then a day.

You say that, but there are a group of players I like to call the "burnout squad." They will play nearly non stop for a couple days, max out, run through all the content, then complain about how there should be more. Meanwhile, the rest of us have worked, spent time with family, and run a few dungeons each.

LNQ
01-20-2016, 10:45 AM
Yeah, I can't believe that one of the questions asked during the stream wasn't if the skill tree is capped to the first third at launch, or if it's just capped when you begin the campaign. Out of all the questions being asked about PvE, this has been one of the big ones.

I think it is obvious that the first third skill tree limitation is for the first release of campaign, and more skill trees will be unlocked as more content is unlocked. This is how it's done in MMOs and other games that don't release all content at once, like Grim Dawn (Diablo-esque game).

It's obvious, because it would make zero sense to have three classes at launch that can be leveled to max level during the very first content release vs. having all six classes available at launch with a temporary level cap.

Fred
01-20-2016, 11:05 AM
Which is will be very fun limiting to me. An idiot can dream up unfair cards to make the dumbest AI difficult. I want my card playing to matter in the outcome of the match, cheater AI cards and bad AI and ultra-random AI ability make my play irrelevant.

But that's what RPGs do all the time. You end up in a fight where the boss has 100x more HP than you and can dish out a million points of damage in one big swing of his mega-hammer. Any idiot can dream a RPG boss that can one-shot kill you, that doesn't mean the game is bad or not enjoyable.

Dinotropia
01-20-2016, 11:16 AM
Guys, even if there is the cap people are speculating about, and even if we only have the first 3 classes (Mage, Warrior, and Cleric), this still represents a healthy amount of gameplay.

Lets say that from start to finish, the campaign takes... 10 hours. Yes, I made this up. Some people might think there will be more! Some people might think there will be less. We will know in a week and the number is just for the sake of the argument. So, the campaign from start to finish takes 10 hours. It is a nice, round number.

Just from the information that has been revealed so far, we can multiply that number by 3 (for each class) and then by 8 (for each race/class combination). Even if you don't feel like doing the campaign with every single one, the differences in talent trees and potentially even story will encourage replayability. For completionists and lore-hounds alike, that is 240 hours right there.

Then, of course, there will be the grinding time. We have no idea how easy or hard it will be to get PvE cards in game, but I suspect there will be chase cards that we will want to get for our collections. Add more hours to the total.

Then there is the matter of what those new PvE cards represent: new decks to be made, new strategies to unfold. If you are any type of deckbuilder, the release of PvE will be like the release of a whole new set. Hour it up.

Finally, because of the nature of HEX and TCGs in general, even if the PvE campaign doesn't have as much content as you want straight away, every single update (PvE or PvP) is an infusion of new fun into the game. Tired of running the same decks in the campaign? Spice them up with goodies from set 4!

It really is a brilliant model and I, for one, cannot wait to get my hands on it. Let's not be all doom and gloom until we have opened the box and gotten a look inside :)

Xenavire
01-20-2016, 11:19 AM
Guys, even if there is the cap people are speculating about, and even if we only have the first 3 classes (Mage, Warrior, and Cleric), this still represents a healthy amount of gameplay.

Lets say that from start to finish, the campaign takes... 10 hours. Yes, I made this up. Some people might think there will be more! Some people might think there will be less. We will know in a week and the number is just for the sake of the argument. So, the campaign from start to finish takes 10 hours. It is a nice, round number.

Just from the information that has been revealed so far, we can multiply that number by 3 (for each class) and then by 6 (for each race/class combination). Even if you don't feel like doing the campaign with every single one, the differences in talent trees and potentially even story will encourage replayability. For completionists and lore-hounds alike, that is 180 hours right there.

Then, of course, there will be the grinding time. We have no idea how easy or hard it will be to get PvE cards in game, but I suspect there will be chase cards that we will want to get for our collections. Add more hours to the total.

Then there is the matter of what those new PvE cards represent: new decks to be made, new strategies to unfold. If you are any type of deckbuilder, the release of PvE will be like the release of a whole new set. Hour it up.

Finally, because of the nature of HEX and TCGs in general, even if the PvE campaign doesn't have as much content as you want straight away, every single update (PvE or PvP) is an infusion of new fun into the game. Tired of running the same decks in the campaign? Spice them up with goodies from set 4!

It really is a brilliant model and I, for one, cannot wait to get my hands on it. Let's not be all doom and gloom until we have opened the box and gotten a look inside :)

Set 4 + PvE = 20% more boners.

Tazelbain
01-20-2016, 11:30 AM
But that's what RPGs do all the time. You end up in a fight where the boss has 100x more HP than you and can dish out a million points of damage in one big swing of his mega-hammer. Any idiot can dream a RPG boss that can one-shot kill you, that doesn't mean the game is bad or not enjoyable.I think Xenavire as the long and short of it. If your RPG gives the player no way to deal with the mega-hammer except to die or be lucky, it's not much fun.

Koz
01-20-2016, 11:46 AM
Guys, even if there is the cap people are speculating about, and even if we only have the first 3 classes (Mage, Warrior, and Cleric), this still represents a healthy amount of gameplay.

Lets say that from start to finish, the campaign takes... 10 hours. Yes, I made this up. Some people might think there will be more! Some people might think there will be less. We will know in a week and the number is just for the sake of the argument. So, the campaign from start to finish takes 10 hours. It is a nice, round number.

Just from the information that has been revealed so far, we can multiply that number by 3 (for each class) and then by 6 (for each race/class combination). Even if you don't feel like doing the campaign with every single one, the differences in talent trees and potentially even story will encourage replayability. For completionists and lore-hounds alike, that is 180 hours right there.

Then, of course, there will be the grinding time. We have no idea how easy or hard it will be to get PvE cards in game, but I suspect there will be chase cards that we will want to get for our collections. Add more hours to the total.

Then there is the matter of what those new PvE cards represent: new decks to be made, new strategies to unfold. If you are any type of deckbuilder, the release of PvE will be like the release of a whole new set. Hour it up.

Finally, because of the nature of HEX and TCGs in general, even if the PvE campaign doesn't have as much content as you want straight away, every single update (PvE or PvP) is an infusion of new fun into the game. Tired of running the same decks in the campaign? Spice them up with goodies from set 4!

It really is a brilliant model and I, for one, cannot wait to get my hands on it. Let's not be all doom and gloom until we have opened the box and gotten a look inside :)

I hear what you're saying, and I'm sure there's plenty of replayability to last for a while, but my only concern is that with only one third of the skill tree available then I would guess that that translates to a level cap (probably around 10). In every single RPG I've ever played leveling always goes quickly in the beginning and then slows down the higher you get. What I don't want to have happen is to hit the level cap fairly quickly and then just grind through content without gaining any XP. Or, as an alternative, have so little content that you can complete it all in just 10 levels of advancement (because in most RPG style games, 10 levels doesn't last long, as I mentioned earlier).

Now obviously we do not have enough information to truly asses these issues, and I'm not complaining or bemoaning anything specific, I'm just a little leery of how all of this is going to work if the initial skill trees are capped at what is traditionally the "quick leveling" stage. This has been my only real concern about everything that has been revealed so far.

Hopefully either this won't be an issue, or they will release the rest of the skill trees fairly quickly. I guess we'll see, and I'm sure I'll have fun regardless, just for the prospect of grinding for the new PvE cards/equips which will be awesome for deck building.

BKCshah
01-20-2016, 11:49 AM
Unless AI is good, I'm not really interested. I'll mess around with it, but I don't expect a deep engaging experience.

nicosharp
01-20-2016, 11:52 AM
Unless AI is good, I'm not really interested. I'll mess around with it, but I don't expect a deep engaging experience.
AI being good will have a lot to do with the challenges made to tweak them, buff them, give them advantages, or create gimmicks that you need to create gimmicks to counter them with. I have not played a lot of Hearthstone, but did watch some dungeon stuff on twitch, and I expect some of the same interaction here, where you must tune a deck to address a specific encounter.

fido_one
01-20-2016, 12:52 PM
Guys, even if there is the cap people are speculating about, and even if we only have the first 3 classes (Mage, Warrior, and Cleric), this still represents a healthy amount of gameplay.

Lets say that from start to finish, the campaign takes... 10 hours. Yes, I made this up. Some people might think there will be more! Some people might think there will be less. We will know in a week and the number is just for the sake of the argument. So, the campaign from start to finish takes 10 hours. It is a nice, round number.

Just from the information that has been revealed so far, we can multiply that number by 3 (for each class) and then by 6 (for each race/class combination). Even if you don't feel like doing the campaign with every single one, the differences in talent trees and potentially even story will encourage replayability. For completionists and lore-hounds alike, that is 180 hours right there.

Then, of course, there will be the grinding time. We have no idea how easy or hard it will be to get PvE cards in game, but I suspect there will be chase cards that we will want to get for our collections. Add more hours to the total.

Then there is the matter of what those new PvE cards represent: new decks to be made, new strategies to unfold. If you are any type of deckbuilder, the release of PvE will be like the release of a whole new set. Hour it up.

Finally, because of the nature of HEX and TCGs in general, even if the PvE campaign doesn't have as much content as you want straight away, every single update (PvE or PvP) is an infusion of new fun into the game. Tired of running the same decks in the campaign? Spice them up with goodies from set 4!

It really is a brilliant model and I, for one, cannot wait to get my hands on it. Let's not be all doom and gloom until we have opened the box and gotten a look inside :)

I honestly am still scratching my head on this thread. Everything they have shown and hinted at since the PC Gamer article makes it look like hours upon hours of mucking with things from the start as Dino here elegantly points out.

A single day of fun? I'm sure you can shoehorn a 24 hour experience in just about any game if you're doing what amounts to a speed-run.

But you will have missed a good deal of the content provided to you. But okay. Pretend it's imperative for the OP to go from point A to point B, en-composing whatever small or starter story arc they have for us next week. They just pick one character, ardent or underworld, say 'screw all the other classes and races, I just one one champion, that's the totality of the PvE experience I wanted.' I'd argue you're not playing an RPG as much as you are doing a speed-run.

Plus, they are doing their first marketing push with news outlets from the days of the Kickstarter. This is a very, very important push for them. It aligns with the 100k tournament and the release of set 4. This is their best time to present a game with a full, engaging experience to those who don't know anything about it, moving to 'release' and the marketing run they are doing supports that idea. If they do all of that and it equates to a day of fun before people go 'meh, nothing more here', Hex is doomed.

HexEnt isn't that stupid. Period.

Mejis
01-20-2016, 01:12 PM
I really don't understand the OP here.
Even if we just look at what was shown on the PC Gamer video, when the character was selected, only one zone was flashing on the world map. Now, within that there were all those nodes. Assuming each node is a single fight (which it isn't, as I'm sure Colin and others said that some nodes are dungeons, which have many nodes within them), then progressing through all those zones would take some time. And that's with only one character, leveling up as you go. It may take more than one play through to get to max level, and that's with only one character out of the multiple class/race available upon launch.

And regardless of how long the above takes, who knows what kind of hard-to-find loot there is, difficult bosses that may take some clever deck-building and ideas, and rarities that we may have to "grind" for.

And, even if the above takes less time than we think, I am going to be loving every single moment of it. I will savour every node, every piece of story, every encounter, every deck-building decision and sense of joy at more cards being unlocked. Because that's what I'm here for.
If PvE isn't for you OP, then that's too bad. There's plenty of us that will be loving every second of it I'm sure. I hope you end up being pleasantly surprised :)

WolfCrypt
01-20-2016, 01:18 PM
I really don't understand the OP here.
Even if we just look at what was shown on the PC Gamer video, when the character was selected, only one zone was flashing on the world map. Now, within that there were all those nodes. Assuming each node is a single fight (which it isn't, as I'm sure Colin and others said that some nodes are dungeons, which have many nodes within them), then progressing through all those zones would take some time. And that's with only one character, leveling up as you go. It may take more than one play through to get to max level, and that's with only one character out of the multiple class/race available upon launch.

Now first to defend myself... This is my guess a guess people not me making facts up or 'assumptions that sound like facts but are my opinions' but my thoughts on nodes are the following.

If it has a picture on it it's either a shop dungeon or town as shown by Cory going to The Cave-In. I assume all nodes on a overview map are random as in their all same color (greyed out blackish from stream) and you not been there. It could be you don't know what a node is till you reach it. Also as shown by Cory you can have fights and encounters outside a dungeon. I'm going out on a limb and say that green node he passed is a dungeon but I don't know for sure.

Now other then my speculations I agree with you just thought I'd elaborate on the most likely in my opinion scenario regarding nodes.

Vengus
01-20-2016, 01:31 PM
There seems to be quite a lot of stuff to do. During the PCgamer stream they showed a zone and it had a lot of nodes in it. Now of course some of those nodes were just conversations with NPCs but other can be big dungeons with multiple encounters. With that said, knowing how gamers are I am sure there will be players out there who will rush through with the fastest aggro deck they can make and end up finishing the campaign within a day. However if you play campaign at a reasonable pace it should last for a while, and theres no harm in making multiple characters since the classes/races seem to be very varied.

sukebe
01-20-2016, 01:42 PM
I think only first level of tree shown in stream was not to show everything. Hex is spoiling Campaign but at same time being vague so we're actually excited

They mentioned in the cleric class article that only the first 1/3rd of the class trees would be available on launch. While that can be interpreted multiple ways I feel it is most likely saying that the second 2/3 of the class trees are not yet complete.


AI and cheating. If the AI is good and the the amount of cheating is low, I will play the hell out this. But I am not so confident.

The Ai is designed with powerful abilities but it has been stated multiple times that the AI does not cheat. It shuffles its deck the same as us at the start of the game and, besides the deckbuilding rules (which can change for certain AI enemies) they follow the same rules we do.


Please stop. I understand you feel a compunction to post every 17.3 seconds, but telling someone they shouldn't play because you've decided to interpret an offhand comment in a certain way isn't helpful. This isn't the first time you've made statements of your assumptions are though they are facts, and when everyone is trying to find accurate information it's very misleading.

There is little doubt that there will be very difficult PvE encounters, because levelled up PvE Champions will be much more powerful than the current crop of PvP Champions. But until we're actually playing those encounters we have no idea what they entail.

To be fair, if the Tazelbain takes such affront to cards like Touch of Xentoth that he feels his fun is ruined when they are played then perhaps he might not want to play the campaign as there will certainly be more of that type of card. The way Wolfcrypt worded it was indeed rude but he is not wrong in this assumption I feel.

LNQ
01-20-2016, 01:56 PM
Side note: 1300 thread views in less than 7 hours. People are active and excited!

Fred
01-20-2016, 01:57 PM
I also think the OP assumes that we'll be able to rush through the encounters with an aggro deck and beat every one by turn 4. I very much do not expect that, and in my opinion, most encounters (at least those that matter) will have some aggro hate and will go to turn 10+. We've been getting used of going through PvE content with our brains totally turned off because it's just that easy to get an aggro deck and mindlessly click around and get through the Arena. The Campaign will *not* be like that.

Mejis
01-20-2016, 02:02 PM
I also think the OP assumes that we'll be able to rush through the encounters with an aggro deck and beat every one by turn 4. I very much do not expect that, and in my opinion, most encounters (at least those that matter) will have some aggro hate and will go to turn 10+. We've been getting used of going through PvE content with our brains totally turned off because it's just that easy to get an aggro deck and mindlessly click around and get through the Arena. The Campaign will *not* be like that.

Yes, I believe/hope this too. I'm sure there will be aggro-favouring dungeons, but there will equally be ones that will be anti-aggro (e.g. inside a volcano where every turn a Heatwave sweeps across the board from the mouth of the volcano, hehe).

WolfCrypt
01-20-2016, 02:08 PM
Yes, I believe/hope this too. I'm sure there will be aggro-favouring dungeons, but there will equally be ones that will be anti-aggro (e.g. inside a volcano where every turn a Heatwave sweeps across the board from the mouth of the volcano, hehe).

Have we played The private test server per chance?? Hmm? Cough up :P

Tazelbain
01-20-2016, 02:11 PM
To be fair, if the Tazelbain takes such affront to cards like Touch of Xentoth that he feels his fun is ruined when they are played then perhaps he might not want to play the campaign as there will certainly be more of that type of card. The way Wolfcrypt worded it was indeed rude but he is not wrong in this assumption I feel.I agree. I still hold out hope unfair cards are by-product of bad AI, good AI has no need for unfair cards. Good AI is a really high bar in a game with so many permutations and so much hidden information. So, ya, Fifty Shades of Titania's Majesty isn't going hold my interest long.

LNQ
01-20-2016, 02:19 PM
Your (and my) best hope is that with the deckbuilding restrictions the need for such unfair cards has gone away. After all, they are a by-product of player built decks being too powerful to compete against with a fixed AI deck that's not specifically built to counter that specific deck. Unless it has those unfair cheaty cards in it, that is.

It's not so much about building a better AI (though that helps, too). It's more about no AI is going to save the opposing deck against the meta-worthy rush decks that players build to steamroll the arena when there are no restrictions in place.

Xenavire
01-20-2016, 02:20 PM
I agree. I still hold out hope unfair cards are by-product of bad AI, good AI has no need for unfair cards. Good AI is a really high bar in a game with so many permutations and so much hidden information. So, ya, Fifty Shades of Titania's Majesty isn't going hold my interest long.

I doubt anyone will bother running Titania, in all honesty. Far too many interesting possibilities (honestly even arena doesn't see much TM.)

As for AI cards being strong? I think it is fine for a boss to have access to more raw power than players, as long as it feels good to play against. If they have a 5 cost action that does 10 damage to a target opponent, thats kinda extreme. However, if it does 10 damage, but removes their Armor (or some other unique effect) then that might be acceptable. It is all about context, thematics, lore, and gameplay, coming together to become a good encounter. In that sense, OP cards are just fine.

However, obscenely strong for the sake of being strong is unfun and isn't interesting design.

Zophie
01-20-2016, 02:24 PM
Have we played The private test server per chance?? Hmm? Cough up :P

Dude, stop. Plz.

Biz
01-20-2016, 02:30 PM
the tricky thing with Hex is you have to design your own fun

maybe people can come up with various restrictions so that you have access to new ways to stay challenged whenever you want to replay an encounter (or a level or a dungeon or whatever they call it).

handicapping yourself (instead of making the opponent stronger) is usually the worst way to go about it, but i don't know what other options you'll have access to. maybe the developers can eventually add a 'hard mode'

WolfCrypt
01-20-2016, 02:31 PM
Dude, stop. Plz.

I thought I was supposed to take things literally I'm only teasing... I wasn't serious. I'm not going to harass people over the test server only tease em seesh...

plaguedealer
01-20-2016, 02:32 PM
Dude, stop. Plz.

I have come to the conclusion that wolfcrypt may be Cory in disguise. Hmm, hmmm.

WolfCrypt
01-20-2016, 02:37 PM
I have come to the conclusion that wolfcrypt may be Cory in disguise. Hmm, hmmm.

Haha um no

Xenavire
01-20-2016, 04:19 PM
I have come to the conclusion that wolfcrypt may be Cory in disguise. Hmm, hmmm.

Pfft, if Wolf was Cory, he would be spoiling stuff all the time, and also be talking about how he is addicted to draft.

Plus there is the disturbing lack of references to male genitalia... Can't be Cory!

wolzarg
01-20-2016, 09:47 PM
As a slight heads up to anyone who is disgusted with all the can't be countered in frost arena it seems like the idea will be more like this going forward.
http://www.hexprimal.com/wp-content/uploads/PowerofSapphireG.jpg
Simply putt strong cards but ones you can actually interact with, and that does matter a lot at least to me.

sukebe
01-21-2016, 12:49 AM
As a slight heads up to anyone who is disgusted with all the can't be countered in frost arena it seems like the idea will be more like this going forward.
http://www.hexprimal.com/wp-content/uploads/PowerofSapphireG.jpg
Simply putt strong cards but ones you can actually interact with, and that does matter a lot at least to me.

even now most AI only cards can be interacted with. each boss only has 2 copies of a single card that cannot be interrupted but each have many different AI only cards.

Catalonia
01-21-2016, 02:08 AM
Pfft, if Wolf was Cory, he would be spoiling stuff all the time, and also be talking about how he is addicted to draft.

Plus there is the disturbing lack of references to male genitalia... Can't be Cory!

if he did what you say he would be cory not cory in disguise xD

Xenavire
01-21-2016, 04:40 AM
if he did what you say he would be cory not cory in disguise xD

Oh please, we have seen Cory disguise himself as a princess and a prostitute, and it was totally obvious - I just have to believe that Cory is too 'Cory' to ever hide his true nature!

Maylick
01-21-2016, 05:10 AM
Oh please, we have seen Cory disguise himself as a princess and a prostitute, and it was totally obvious - I just have to believe that Cory is too 'Cory' to ever hide his true nature!

Which is... princess, right?

Xenavire
01-21-2016, 05:14 AM
Which is... princess, right?

Nah, clearly he is a queen - loves drag and is obsessed with boners. ;) (I still love you Cory, don't take my joking to heart!)

Maylick
01-21-2016, 05:18 AM
Nah, clearly he is a queen - loves drag and is obsessed with boners. ;) (I still love you Cory, don't take my joking to heart!)

Jesus, I don't want to make it hard for you, but you gave 2 examples and said it's not a princess. After all I already stole your favorite IGN)

P.S. We absolutely love you Cory. Your Kickstarter appearence and HYPE impressed so many of my friends.

Xenavire
01-21-2016, 06:04 AM
Wait... IGN? What IGN? Who is stealing my stuff?

Maylick
01-21-2016, 06:09 AM
Wait... IGN? What IGN? Who is stealing my stuff?

Wasn't that you, who wanted IGN: Merlin? :cool:

Xenavire
01-21-2016, 06:12 AM
Wasn't that you, who wanted IGN: Merlin? :cool:

Oh, yes, kinda - it''s more that it wierds me out seeing my real name against me in tournaments and stuff - I sorta wish I could have reserved the name just to avoid those weird moments, but I can't really gripe when such a nice guy has the account named Merlin - do us both proud!

Counter
01-21-2016, 07:46 AM
Was just curious what people's expectations were for entertainment out of this. The Arena was fairly short for me, hope the Dungeon is more fun.

Maylick
01-21-2016, 07:58 AM
Well, Arena was fine, but let's look on known campaign features:

Whole new bunch of PvE champions (up to 24 combos on launch) with up to 1/3 of talent trees open to further customization.
Few dungeons (6-8 wild speculation)
Many separate PvE encounters.
Tons of cards. For some reason I believe there should be ~500 (some are AI only tho). That's the number that comes in mind, at some point devs said there be comparable number of PvP and PvE cards. We do lack PvE atm.

That's plain gameplay features. Amazing art, music, storytelling, and bunch of other things to get us entertained. Also, probably, many new players in our community. Seems pretty fun to me)

Mokog
01-21-2016, 09:19 AM
I agree. I still hold out hope unfair cards are by-product of bad AI, good AI has no need for unfair cards. Good AI is a really high bar in a game with so many permutations and so much hidden information. So, ya, Fifty Shades of Titania's Majesty isn't going hold my interest long.

Let us ask some basic questions. Should the AI lose every game it plays? How engaging is that?

When I think about how to design an encounter with significant random variables I have to ask a question, how do I want a player to feel when they interact with this element?

In frost ring, Xarlox is a boss. He is a vennen and a powerful vennen at that. How should that character feel when he is encountered? Should the player have a sense of mastery over him or should there be a consistent feel of trepidation? When you see that icy blue portrait do you want them to feel the same as when they see the seaweed behemoth?

Xarlox is supposed to be a cunning and powerful enemy. That means he has indirect and powerful abilities. That is why he is Mill and that is why he has Word of Xentoth.

We can call it cheating but it is no different than raising the armor value on a boss in an RPG. It is a design choice. We will be facing encounters in a TCG RPG where battle mechanics are pure TCG. Challenge will be how the Ai presents scenarios and how we deal with them. In my opinion if every game were "fair" I should be playing PVP where fairness is a core principle of design. In PvE "fair" isn't the core principle it is a tertiary principle at best. PvE is about how engaged we are. Fairness is how prepared the player is for the challenge at hand with the designer choosing how difficult that challenge needs to be on a given encounter.

TLDR: PvE is not supposed to be fair it is supposed to be fun and engaging. Let us judge it on that first when we get our hands on it.

Goliath764
01-24-2016, 03:48 PM
I agree. I still hold out hope unfair cards are by-product of bad AI, good AI has no need for unfair cards. Good AI is a really high bar in a game with so many permutations and so much hidden information. So, ya, Fifty Shades of Titania's Majesty isn't going hold my interest long.

I doubt even the best AI(or even a human being) in the world can play well against a(nother) human who can adapt and counter its fixed deck with all the possibilities given in the boatload of cards. The AI has to get powerful cards not because they are to make things unfair but without those cards, they are just too easy for the players to beat.

kaiizza
01-24-2016, 04:37 PM
I agree. I still hold out hope unfair cards are by-product of bad AI, good AI has no need for unfair cards. Good AI is a really high bar in a game with so many permutations and so much hidden information. So, ya, Fifty Shades of Titania's Majesty isn't going hold my interest long.

Your exceptions are unrealistic. Perfect AI with a limited deck choice will always be beaten once there deck is figured out by thinking humans that have access to hundreds of more cards. I am not going to try to change your mind. That's for you to do, but without what you have called "cheating" cards, how would you solve this problem. Remember you can play clones or yourself with all cards available.

Tazelbain
01-24-2016, 07:37 PM
TLDR: PvE is not supposed to be fair it is supposed to be fun and engaging. Let us judge it on that first when we get our hands on it.This isn't a movie. We are meant to participate in combat with a card game. Should players participation matter or we just a long of the ride? If the playing the card game is perfunctory with RNG as the true arbitrator of the results, then Hex PvE is a really slow version of a clicker RPG. Of course, some people might find that engaging. No accounting for taste. But I think they can do better.

LNQ
02-04-2016, 07:18 AM
I don't often bump old threads, but a) this isn't so old and b) I find it funny how quick this thread died after the release of PvE, so I had to. :)

Well done Hex on providing us a long lasting PvE Campaign! Looking forward to the next years and chapters in the story of Entrath!