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shocker455
01-23-2016, 10:14 PM
So iv been wondering, is there any reason at all to get the AFFINITY: ELEMENTALS trait? Excluding cases were your your about to die, and you hope that a random action can save you, this seems like a terrible talent to use talent points on. A card in your deck should be better then a random card 99% of the time

For reference,
AFFINITY: ELEMENTALS–Elementals in your deck get “While this is in your hand, [(0)]: Transform this into a random action of the same shards.”

SquallTiofae
01-23-2016, 10:15 PM
Have you ever played with Ingenuity Engine or tunneled Reese? Randomization is hilarious and awesome and a lot of the time, will win you the game. I know the correlation isn't exact but there are a lot of people who will find a way to exploit that trait.

shocker455
01-23-2016, 10:17 PM
Ofc but your examples are your gaining random cards. In this case, there is no upside, if it turned into 2 random actions sure, could be good.

In this case you just lose a card to gain and random card, and there are a lot of bad actions so you have a decent chance of just getting a dead card.

Xenavire
01-23-2016, 10:29 PM
Ofc but your examples are your gaining random cards. In this case, there is no upside, if it turned into 2 random actions sure, could be good.

In this case you just lose a card to gain and random card, and there are a lot of bad actions so you have a decent chance of just getting a dead card.

Not every elemental will be good for every fight, and flexibility can be a huge boon for decks. Even a random action could be better than, say, a water elemental that got hit by shadowgrove witch, so it is definitely a talent worth considering for some encounters.

the_artic_one
01-23-2016, 10:33 PM
If you have a bunch of stuff that triggers off actions like wrenlocke it might be a good idea. Even if it's not optimal it might be fun for some people who like random effects.

Aradon
01-23-2016, 10:33 PM
I do see his point, though. It'd be neat if you could activate it from play, too. Return it to your hand and transform it.
But I think a lot of the enjoyment is going to be just self-inflicted randomness. You can optimally farm PvE all month, but at the end of it all, it depends on how much you're enjoying playing.

wolzarg
01-23-2016, 11:33 PM
It easily falls in a filler point category if your deck runs 12 elementals and you only have super marginal choices you take that one once every 10 games when you have dead elementals on hand for what ever reason you dump them for spells simple as that.

In all fairness i can't find a build where that point is better than any other but i am sure there is one somewhere.

fido_one
01-24-2016, 08:00 AM
I am pumped for most talents but I agree with the OP here, my favorite deck for Arena is elemental, and even with the building restrictions I can't wait to throw it at the dungeons. There isn't an elemental troop in that deck, even restricted, that I want to give up when I find it in hand, that's why I like the deck so much! So yeah, this talent is a head scratcher for me as well.

Somewhat unrelated note, anyone have any idea how the deck restriction works with multi-shard cards? I'm talking 'Storm of the Century' here. As the restriction in numbers are name based, if I have 1 sapphire legendary and 1 ruby legendary max restriction, I'm assuming I can only use 1 Storm of the Century instead of 2 (as it is a sapphire/ruby mutli-shard card).

IronPheasant
01-24-2016, 08:22 AM
If you have a deck that generates low quality elementals to your hand, it'd be pretty great.

I've tried using Jovial Pippit in a Dream Stag + Genesis Pool Naid deck. With equipment, these cards can saboteur for an enormous amount of resources in your hand.

Blossoming Concubunny which squeezes a battle hopper into your hand is another example of card surplus.

Obviously these kinds of cards that inject elementals into your hand are not gonna be huge in quantity. But it's feasible they'll get made over the many many years that remain in the future.

edit: Derp "elementals in your deck get" disregard

wolzarg
01-24-2016, 08:37 AM
Somewhat unrelated note, anyone have any idea how the deck restriction works with multi-shard cards? I'm talking 'Storm of the Century' here. As the restriction in numbers are name based, if I have 1 sapphire legendary and 1 ruby legendary max restriction, I'm assuming I can only use 1 Storm of the Century instead of 2 (as it is a sapphire/ruby mutli-shard card).
That is almost certainly how it works a more interesting question is if you have 1 sapphire 2 ruby which does it go by the nicest or the most restrictive?

Vorsa
01-24-2016, 08:56 AM
I assume/hope it goes by the highest allowance.

Regarding AFFINITY: ELEMENTALS
The only roles I can think of for it would be in an Angel of Foresight deck:
Rather than risking going too light on troops, stock up on Elementals to maintain board presence until an Angel of Foresight turns up.
Then, transform them into actions before you play her & hope they gain her effect.

+

Actually, I just realized you could do some Angel of Foresight mischief if you take no actual actions but plenty of clouds & cheap elementals.

Hold on to and/or bounce some eles (e.g. Telekinesis), then play Angel of Foresight and there guaranteed to get powered up!

facade
01-24-2016, 10:58 AM
Well for those that like to gamble, the Elemental affinity could potentially be used to get overpowered AI spells that you otherwise have no chance of obtaining and playing.

For example, I couldn't tell you how often I've been wrecked by Ruby Enchantress randomly creating a Zakiir spell.

wolzarg
01-24-2016, 12:07 PM
Well for those that like to gamble, the Elemental affinity could potentially be used to get overpowered AI spells that you otherwise have no chance of obtaining and playing.

For example, I couldn't tell you how often I've been wrecked by Ruby Enchantress randomly creating a Zakiir spell.
Statistically less often than she has been wrecked by getting garbage i would assume.

Evilgm
01-24-2016, 12:17 PM
The talent provides utility. There are games where the Lightning Elemental in your hand is doing nothing to advance your board position, but getting an action in your hand may be useful. It allows you to play more creatures than normal in a Wrenlocke focused deck and still keep your options open. The fact that it's an isolated talent on the first tier means that if you don't think it'll suit your deck it's easy to skip.

Aradon
01-24-2016, 12:28 PM
Isn't it on the Destruction branch, though? They said it was a line going on that one side. If you want the more powerful destruction talents, you may very well end up needing to take it.

Khazrakh
01-24-2016, 12:50 PM
I can see people taking it to build janky decks around it but in all seriousness, it's utterly worthless in almost every game.
Yes it can give you a Hail Mary kinda last resort try at not losing the game by hitting some random action that can actually save you, but I'd prefer anything that helps me to not get into the situation where I'd consider using it.

...And I'm not even starting about how you'll get a completely useless action 90% of the time ;)

facade
01-24-2016, 01:17 PM
Of course, another thing all posts are neglecting so far is that maybe there are future talents that take advantage of spells being created.

For example, there might be a Mage ability that says cards that are transformed into spells gain "when you play this, you may copy it three times" or something else patently ridiculous that makes taking the gamble on a transformed spell worth it.


While my mage characters builders won't be grabbing this talent while only the first tier is unlocked, I'm not inclined to write it off as complete garbage until seeing the entire tree.

wolzarg
01-24-2016, 01:24 PM
According to the mage text they focus on either destruction or life magic. It would surprise me deeply if life magic was healing as that is the cleric niche so if life magic is creation the logical thing to create as a mage is elementals just saying.

WolfCrypt
01-24-2016, 01:50 PM
According to the mage text they focus on either destruction or life magic. It would surprise me deeply if life magic was healing as that is the cleric niche so if life magic is creation the logical thing to create as a mage is elementals just saying.

And a balance of the two which might actually be a third branch of skills stead of an even amount of Chaos and Life talents.

sukebe
01-24-2016, 03:44 PM
And a balance of the two which might actually be a third branch of skills stead of an even amount of Chaos and Life talents.

I am fairly certain they specifically said there was a third branch that combined the 2 two others. I cannot remember where I saw this though...maybe on the gameforge mage reveal.

PureVapes
01-24-2016, 04:33 PM
Two ideas I can think off off the top of my head.

1. There could be new Elemental troops that work well specifically for this trait. They could be very niche cards that get a bonus if your opponent has a certain threshold or troop type, so sometimes you don't need them.

2. A future elemental could be a multi-shard troop that has very few potential outcomes, reducing randomization and perhaps even effectively letting you have 8 copies of some action.

WolfCrypt
01-24-2016, 04:35 PM
Plus looks like there are a few beasts elementals that you can spam with Affinity

YourOpponent
01-25-2016, 02:46 AM
So iv been wondering, is there any reason at all to get the AFFINITY: ELEMENTALS trait? Excluding cases were your your about to die, and you hope that a random action can save you, this seems like a terrible talent to use talent points on. A card in your deck should be better then a random card 99% of the time

For reference,
AFFINITY: ELEMENTALS–Elementals in your deck get “While this is in your hand, [(0)]: Transform this into a random action of the same shards.”

I can understand what you're saying...but if the deck also were to have things that used the copy effect (such as Syyn) then the elementals that were in your deck are being able to be turned into actions that would work magnificently when comboed with Chimes of the Zodiac.

whiteyzz
01-26-2016, 01:31 AM
The problem i see with this is when they release more sets the worst and worst this ability gets.

(X / Actions + Quick Actions from X colour) / (X / Actions + That solve the situation you're in).

Also with no way to put elementals into your hand, you can create them with water elemental but then you have to pay more mana to put them into your hand to cast a spell and just not worth it. You could run Storm Elemental/Wrathwood to get early actions out of them. Unless the mage gets a spell that's like 3sp make 2 1 cost 1/1 elemental creature based off the thresholds you have.

wolzarg
01-26-2016, 02:00 AM
I think people need to back up and realize not every talent needs to be amazing. The only reason the talent next to the one being talked about isn't pretty much just as bad is that the card is shardless and cantrips.

Basically if we add cantrip to the spell created from a elemental it would instantly be playable as you don't lose card value to the same extent if you random poorly.


Edit for clarity
Cantrip = draw a card

WolfCrypt
01-26-2016, 02:02 AM
I'm going to say... Your not supposed to rely 100% on this ability and it's more thematic then anything else more for fun then a need talent.

whiteyzz
01-26-2016, 02:26 AM
I'm going to say... Your not supposed to rely 100% on this ability and it's more thematic then anything else more for fun then a need talent.

The problem with such design, is when the level cap increases newer and more better abilities will be available. Fun abilities are good but they still have to be useful. The major flaw to this card is it's impossible to generate elemental into your "hand". If this was from play it could be good but this would only see use if you bounced 20 water elementals into your hand... in which the question is why did you not just swing out you have 20 water elementals on the battlefield.

Cleric chance thing is a million times better, a 1/10 chance a card becomes way better...? vs an 4% chance to get a card that helps your current situation.

WolfCrypt
01-26-2016, 02:34 AM
There must be cards that could help with this talent. It's supposed to be a fun niche thing not a life saving meta.

Kingrags
01-26-2016, 02:39 AM
Can you do something with boulder brute & shardstone rumbler sockets or do they revert when tuned into actions?

WolfCrypt
01-26-2016, 02:41 AM
Can you do something with boulder brute & shardstone rumbler sockets or do they revert when tuned into actions?

We'll have to try that!

seashell
01-26-2016, 02:45 AM
troops revert when turned into actions or so i have been told.

WolfCrypt
01-26-2016, 02:47 AM
troops revert when turned into actions or so i have been told.

Where did you here this??? That makes it way too spammable.

Kingrags
01-26-2016, 02:48 AM
troops revert when turned into actions or so i have been told.

to bad, whould have been fun. Although... actions entering play is a bit of a strange situation i suppose.

WolfCrypt
01-26-2016, 02:52 AM
to bad, whould have been fun. Although... actions entering play is a bit of a strange situation i suppose.

Perhaps you play them then they get played as the troop and revert back? This would make the talent more vaible

seashell
01-26-2016, 02:52 AM
"Transformation does not remove any modifiers, unless the card is changing types in such a way to cause the game rules to revert it first (e.g. a troop transforming into an action)." this is a quote from a hex employee.

WolfCrypt
01-26-2016, 02:54 AM
"Transformation does not remove any modifiers, unless the card is changing types in such a way to cause the game rules to revert it first (e.g. a troop transforming into an action)." this is a quote from a hex employee.

That doesn't mean that's how the talent works.....

seashell
01-26-2016, 02:56 AM
i wasn't responding to that. However the talent wouldn't change the fundamental mechanics of the game unless it clearly said so.

whiteyzz
01-26-2016, 03:01 AM
Again unless some sort of spell (or card) shows up which put's elementals into your hand I don't see this being a great talent

seashell
01-26-2016, 03:03 AM
Valiant Escort! :D

WolfCrypt
01-26-2016, 03:05 AM
Again unless some sort of spell (or card) shows up which put's elementals into your hand I don't see this being a great talent

Learn Spell: Telekinesis: Put target card to owners hand. Combo this with Pyresoul Wizard that human who summons a flame beast this could get ugly.

seashell
01-26-2016, 03:08 AM
I don't understand the combo.

whiteyzz
01-26-2016, 03:08 AM
Learn Spell: Telekinesis: Put target card to owners hand or you know... dont do that and not waist 6 sp and bounce the threatening creature back into the enemies hand instead of a 6 sp, bounce your own creature and 5% chance to deal with that creature...


Valiant Escort! :D So... spend 1 mana to play, 1 mana to sac, and then possibly get a spell you cant play and doesn't deal with the situation. I mean something like Pyresoul Summoner but into your hand... or a spell that makes two or one 1/1 elemental to use that effect on.

WolfCrypt
01-26-2016, 03:11 AM
I don't understand the combo.

Pryesoul something is a Set 3 :diamond: :ruby: card that has "Pay 4 choose Flame Beast(3R costing fire token that dies at end of turn) or Spirit(1D Flight)

seashell
01-26-2016, 03:13 AM
so the idea is to get rid of a blocker and then hit him with the flame beast?

WolfCrypt
01-26-2016, 03:16 AM
so the idea is to get rid of a blocker and then hit him with the flame beast?

The idea is to have a Flame Beast you don't need and turn it into a random action with Telekinesis. I you don't like the talent lets wait till it patches in 5 hours and then see if cards can support this lil trick.

seashell
01-26-2016, 03:17 AM
oh lol i forgot about the talent :P too used to thinking pvp.

Kingrags
01-26-2016, 03:18 AM
I feal like the stormlings should be elementals... would work great with yesterday :)

seashell
01-26-2016, 03:19 AM
btw ozawa you don't happen to have a mastery of time to speed this wait up?

QuartZ
01-26-2016, 03:25 AM
When i was testing this talent i found myself needing to use the ability a lot lore often than i have thought. Is good business.

WolfCrypt
01-26-2016, 03:27 AM
When i was testing this talent i found myself needing to use the ability a lot more often than i have thought. Is good business.

Can you say you were in test server now? :p

BenStoll
01-26-2016, 08:05 AM
The talent provides utility. There are games where the Lightning Elemental in your hand is doing nothing to advance your board position, but getting an action in your hand may be useful. It allows you to play more creatures than normal in a Wrenlocke focused deck and still keep your options open. The fact that it's an isolated talent on the first tier means that if you don't think it'll suit your deck it's easy to skip.

Hehe, I'm responding to Evilgm's quote because it mirrors my own conceptualization of the talent the most accurately and succinctly.

This talent is quite funky. It's easily the least straightforward of any of the Affinity Powers, probably including the ones that aren't out yet. Also, this talent was somewhat unpopular internally, and a few people begged me consistently to change it, so I will take full responsibility :D

While I do appreciate the fact (as some in this thread have pointed out) that some people will select (and enjoy) talents more on the merit of their being fun then on the merit of their efficacy, I see this as an incidental benefit but not something R&D is allowed to lean on. I consider it a failing if there is a talent somewhere that no possible spec/deck combination would ever be correct to take, from a "trying to win" standpoint. It's ok if there are talents that are chosen more frequently than others--that will obviously happen with the desire to make some talents that are much more narrow--but I don't think it's ideal to have talents that are ALWAYS wrong.

To dissect this talent a little further--I think it's the only affinity trait that doesn't offer a guaranteed (or some odds of producing a) "pure upside" bonus for the affinity race in question--but it's important to note that taking this talent can never hurt you, either, since it's merely introducing another option into the game that you didn't have before, even if that option is "often" not one you want to engage.

We're used to a world where the implied opportunity cost of poor selections that we make in the preparatory portions of Hex is much higher than it is with taking this talent--not that most decks, even some "elemental-heavy" decks would be better off spending this talent point elsewhere, but taking this talent isn't as rough as say, putting "the wrong" cards into your deck, from a standpoint of trying to win the game. The wrong cards in your deck actually lowers your chances of winning, whereas taking this talent can never have that effect (beyond the implications of the talent point loss). This may all go without saying, but I believe I have observed people conflating the underwhelming (power-wise) general "expected value" of the effect with the talent's net efficacy.

But yes, the main idea was two-fold:

1. to let you have a heavier troop base in a deck that still wanted some "actions matter" stuff, and that this unique flexibility would be fun and useful. Especially because the Mage Tree has some "actions matters" stuff in it. Other subtleties support this talent as well, such as the fact that Soothsaying (Spell that Draws then discards a card) can help make sure you don't ever whammy yourself out of a card too badly.

2. to allow you more flexibility in a moment where you're sitting there staring at a fist of three Lightning Elementals and it's not what you really need (to piggyback off Evilgm's example), or even a scenario where the Dungeon Boss has you dead but at least you get to roll the dice a last time or two to try and get out of a jam.

Anywho :D That's a little background and my two cents :)

I will also throw out there that despite some currently visible factors that may be evidence towards the contrary, I believe that in total, this talent is easily poised to get better with time, not worse ;)

PureVapes
01-26-2016, 08:27 AM
I will also throw out there that despite some currently visible factors that may be evidence towards the contrary, I believe that in total, this talent is easily poised to get better with time, not worse ;)

Set 4 card(s) that revert actions confirmed!

RCDv57
01-26-2016, 08:39 AM
I'm actually really happy that the Elemental Talent exists and made it into the tree.
It is really thematic, Maybe I'll make a build around it once or twice just for fun.

Selanius
01-26-2016, 12:25 PM
I wasn't going to comment on this until I'd played the campaign, but with the server problems I figured I'd weigh in here.

I don't think anyone that understands TCGs would suggest that if this talent was free then taking the talent is "worse" than not having it. Options are always good, however, I think that from a design standpoint this talent is a miss. A sizable portion of casual players don't realize that more options = better. They think more "good" options = better.

If there was a 2 cost 2/2 with no abilities vs a 2 cost 2/2 with the ability 10: ONE SHOT give target troop you control -5/-5 until end of turn, which is better? Unquestionably the 2nd option, more options = better, maybe your troop will get hit with an Inner Conflict with the Scepter of Nightmares, or maybe your opponent will play the new troop thief Sapphire Dragon. Research in other games has shown that players will consistently pick the 2 cost 2/2 with no abilities in their decks given the choice.

Why?

The ability seems bad and isn't fun. The question isn't whether this talent is worth more than 0 talent points, it clearly is, the question isn't even if it is worth a full talent point in some decks. The question is whether the design space could have gone to a concept and talent more fun. I like elementals, storm cloud, despite having a bunch of randomness jammed into it, turned out to be fun because you could ignore the random elements with cards like CMK. This talent does not make me want to build a PvE elemental deck and that's a shame because this talent could have been a build around star. Several of the other affinity talents DO make me want to build decks that support them.

Part of this might be my utter loathing for the amount of randomness in HEX and this talent is another example. This is how I feel about adding additional random elements into the game at every freaking opportunity. I'm sure its done to provide "excitement" and "big moments", but every time I see a good card with these game play styles I cringe and get sad. War isn't exciting to watch and even if people were flipping coins for $1000 a flip I would just think it was dumb not exciting. I'm not saying HEX needs to be Chess:Shards of Fate, but it seems like all the most pushed cards and abilities have a heavy element of random chance in them to force it into the game and I really wish they'd give us that don't like that a chance to opt out and still be competitive.

See: Angel of Dawn, Vampire King, Eye of Creation, Reese the Crustcrawler, Phenteo the Brood Priest, Tetzot, Titania's Majesty, and the whole archetype of spiders in limited. The fact that these cards have dominated the constructed scene is a large part of the reason I have really disliked competitive constructed in this game compared to other competitive TCGs I've played. I've largely liked limited and have loved non-spider limited in each of HEX's sets. (Even Sealed a format I normally hate.)


Ultimately, I'm sorry if this post is a bit negative, I love HEX and overall the talents and trees look amazing, this one singular talent really saddened me when I saw it. Overall I can't wait to play lots of different talent trees in all three of the classes and try all the combos (well maybe all the combos without elementals).

KingGabriel
01-26-2016, 01:10 PM
Storm cloud recursion is pretty great with the talent.

wolzarg
01-26-2016, 01:19 PM
I still hope the life part of the mage tree focuses on elemental creation.

Hemlock
01-26-2016, 01:46 PM
I'm mad excited about this talent. I've been trying to make an action deck work with my collection, and it's just not quite there yet. But, getting to throw in all my Lightning Elementals and such will be a huge help. In particular, the "shoot the moon" option where, where you're gonna lose anyway and might as well, sounds like a lot of fun.

funktion
01-27-2016, 09:48 PM
Not sure if this has been raised yet, didn't pour over the thread.

Wanted to raise a point about this card's usefulness, it is certainly more niche than others but not entirely useless by any means. The mage is more fragile than others. Try building a deck that has a strong late game action-based win condition and including multiple low cost elementals in it. Once you no longer need the elementals you can transform them into now useful actions. If all you are trying to do is dig deeper with something like Wrenlocke then transforming cards which now have a new context is pure upside.

I get that that situation is pretty corner case, but TCG's are all about corner cases.

Edit: a final note is that this is a mage talent and the mage in general seems to live in these types of spaces more often than any of the other two classes.

Steelio
01-28-2016, 05:59 AM
Maybe in a Jovial pippit deck ;]