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Blackbird_13
01-24-2016, 11:09 PM
So.. one of my close friends and I have decided to do a single elimination tournament, pitting all of the Super Hero/Super Villain cards against each other. But.. I could use your help! So I'm going to make a list of how we plan on doing this, and how we personally ranked the SH/SV cards, then ask you guys a few questions.



The tourney will be six rounds. The first round will be one random base game (Original, HU, FE, or TT), drawn at random for each match. The second round will be a base game with an add on (Crisis 1, Crisis 2, Crossover 1, 2, 3 or 4). Round three is two base games. Round four is two base games and an add on. Round five is three base games and an add on.. the final round is a one on one with all of the cards!

None of the "Crisis" specific SH cards will be used. Shazam and Cyborg ruin it, and we don't want to have a "all but them" deal. We also find Rivals to be a separate game, so we won't be using any cards or SH/SV cards from it. We have all the Promo SH and SV cards except for Skitter, as well as Felix Faust and Gotham City Docks.

MY QUESTIONS FOR THE BOARD:

1. Should we have 62 spots locked in, and have the remaining 8 SH cards battle for the two wildcard spots... OR... should we put all 70 in the tourney, meaning that the bottom group would battle in one on ones for their spots? I like the "neatness" of a 64 person tourney, but want everyone to have some kind of chance.

2. How do we handle "Disintegration"? I hate to remove any one card from the game... but it's either overpowered or does absolutely nothing. Maybe leave it in, because it is still worth VP, but seeing as how we can't be "Loyal", it really doesn't do anything? Suggestions are welcome.

3. When we previously have played with all the cards, we have broken the game up into sections (4, but this was before TT, CO3, and CO4). Would it be better to break the game up into sections, or to have multiple SV stacks out?

4. Do you see any changes you would make to the rankings? Keep in mind the randomness of what game you are playing.. and the lack of certain card types and styles throughout all sets of the game.

5. Do we limit the ability to Kyle Rayner auto win? The more sets and cards involved, the easier it becomes to do.

6. Any other suggestions I am missing out on?


SUPER HERO/SUPER VILLAIN RANKING:

1. Swamp Thing
2. White Latern Deadman
3. Wonder Woman
4. Shazam
5. Aquaman
6. Beast Boy
7. The Flash
8. Lex Luthor
9. Cyborg
10. Green Arrow
11. Martian Manhunter
12. Chameleon Boy
13. John Diggle
14. Felicity Smoak
15. Black Canary
16. Sinestro
17. Dr. Manhattan
18. Ozymandias
19. Nightwing
20. Batman
21. Hawkman
22. Superman
23. Rorschach
24. Bizzaro
25. Kid Flash
26. The Comedian
27. Indigo-1
28. Harley Quinn
29. Silk Spectre
30. Cosmic Boy
31. Stargirl
32. Saint Walker
33. Black Adam
34. Sara Lance
35. The Joker
36. Booster Gold
37. Raven
38. Zatanna Zatara
39. Superboy
40. Blue Beetle
41. Star Sapphire
42. Red Robin
43. Jay Garrick
44. Starfire (Teen Titans)
45. Black Manta
46. Lightning Lad
47. Saturn Girl
48. Braniac-5
49. Oliver Queen
50. Wonder Girl
51. Wildcat
52. Power Girl
53. Bane
54. Robin
55. Nite Owl
56. Red Lantern Supergirl
57. Mister Terrific
58. Starfire (HU)
59. Constantine
60. Dr. Fate
61. Deathstroke
62. Green Lantern
63. Skitter
64. Red Tornado
65. Animal Man
66. Roy Harper
67. Kyle Rayner
68. Batgirl
69. Alan Scott
70. Phantom Girl


Thanks for the time, looking forward to the input!

StormKing
01-25-2016, 03:35 PM
Disintegration intentionally does nothing in competitive.

I would separate Super-Villain stacks.

Your ranking list seems slightly arbitrary and based on personal/group experience/opinion so suggestions would be kinda arbitrary as well.

Blackbird_13
01-25-2016, 03:56 PM
Disintegration intentionally does nothing in competitive.

I would separate Super-Villain stacks.

Your ranking list seems slightly arbitrary and based on personal/group experience/opinion so suggestions would be kinda arbitrary as well.

That said, do you think it would be better left out, or better there as possible points/game altering (i.e. making Starfire HU less likely to activate)?

The only potential issue with that is that when someone has a massive, 100+ point turn.. the next round of FA Attacks is going to be terrible.

The ranking list was complied based on results of 100s of games that we've played.. as well as feedback found on this forum, and others. My biggest reason for posting it was to see if we are just biased towards any particular characters, either positively or negatively, where they are ranked drastically off. That's one of things I'm hoping for feedback on. I'd even be up for someone else's ranking of all 70 SH/SV cards, to see how close it matches ours, and adjust accordingly.

StormKing
01-25-2016, 04:06 PM
That said, do you think it would be better left out, or better there as possible points/game altering (i.e. making Starfire HU less likely to activate)?

The only potential issue with that is that when someone has a massive, 100+ point turn.. the next round of FA Attacks is going to be terrible.

The ranking list was complied based on results of 100s of games that we've played.. as well as feedback found on this forum, and others. My biggest reason for posting it was to see if we are just biased towards any particular characters, either positively or negatively, where they are ranked drastically off. That's one of things I'm hoping for feedback on. I'd even be up for someone else's ranking of all 70 SH/SV cards, to see how close it matches ours, and adjust accordingly.

1) Leave it out.

2) I misunderstood, do 1 random stack.

3) Noted, I'll share my thoughts on this at a later time then.

DIsForDoom
01-25-2016, 07:28 PM
Without going into my own list but just giving some observations. I find your low rankings of Batgirl and Starfire (HU) a bit odd. Starfire (HU) has a rather consistent drawing ability and with the lack of superpowers in most main decks it's not like your hurting yourself to buy them out of the line up. As for Batgirl I find the drawing ability is more consistent than The Flash (who you have ranked far higher than I personally believe he should be, but most here won't agree.) As well I feel Swamp Thing is good but nowhere near the number 1 spot. As a final observation, I find the high ranking of Batman, Superman, Hawkman, and Black Canary to be weird since you have Green Lantern, Animal Man and Red Tornado low. Only reason I bring it up is that while your high ranks have a greater upper limit the low ones are easier to hit for more power consistently.

Blackbird_13
01-25-2016, 09:05 PM
Without going into my own list but just giving some observations. I find your low rankings of Batgirl and Starfire (HU) a bit odd. Starfire (HU) has a rather consistent drawing ability and with the lack of superpowers in most main decks it's not like your hurting yourself to buy them out of the line up. As for Batgirl I find the drawing ability is more consistent than The Flash (who you have ranked far higher than I personally believe he should be, but most here won't agree.) As well I feel Swamp Thing is good but nowhere near the number 1 spot. As a final observation, I find the high ranking of Batman, Superman, Hawkman, and Black Canary to be weird since you have Green Lantern, Animal Man and Red Tornado low. Only reason I bring it up is that while your high ranks have a greater upper limit the low ones are easier to hit for more power consistently.

Let me explain myself, and then afterwards, I'd love your response, as we really do want to get a solid ranking before bracketing this out.

Starfire (HU) might be ranked a bit low. We often play variants with more than 5 cards on the board, this won't be the case for the tourney. Around where do you think she should be placed?

Batgirl, Green Lantern, Animal Man, and Red Tornado are all placed where they are due to being limited. In the former's case, there are only 7 punch cards in the deck. In a base, one-on-one game, Batgirl would be slightly better.. but as the tournament goes up exponentially and there are more cards, Batgirl becomes much, much worse. The latter three are limited because the amount of power they can generate is extremely small... and again, as you combine games, hitting high power bonuses for Hawkman/Batman/Black Canary/Superman becomes much easier and more common. The aforementioned trio is all still power capped. Not only that, but I've always found Green Lantern to be a very "mid game" SH card... not really great at the beginning or at the end.

I also feel like Flash is ranked too high, but he seems to win a LOT of the games that we play, even when used by an inexperienced player. Are our experiences with this a fluke, or has anyone else noticed this?

Lastly, I feel Swamp Thing is number one to the point that he's almost overpowered. Remember, the tournaments will be bracketed so that the higher ranks face the lower ranks early, and as the games get bigger, there are a lot more locations available. Should Swamp Thing make it to the finals.. I don't know that he can be beat. Think of every location available.. and then realize that Swamp Thing will have access to the large majority of them. All of that said... I am actively looking for other perspectives.. who do you think should have the number one spot?

StormKing
01-25-2016, 10:26 PM
I'm confused, are you saying that you keep your deck as is between games? That's pretty weird if so, a lot of heroes are balanced the way they are because of their early game pressure (like Batgirl above).

If you're not using normal rules, it's fair to expect people to not understand your rankings.

As for your Swamp Thing explanation, that's still based on luck of Locations coming out, it doesn't increase his odds to use every card in the game combined since you're also including every other card. Not only are you adding more locations, you're adding answers to locations as well.

Based on the normal rules and understanding of the game and its balance, I would order the top 10 (using ANY sets with any expansions) as something like this:

1. Superman
2. Green Arrow
3. Bane
4. Ozymandias
5. Constantine
6. Dr. Manhattan
7. Beast Boy
8. Kyle Rayner
9. Starfire (Heroes Unite)
10. Felicity Smoak

DIsForDoom
01-25-2016, 11:20 PM
I guess I missed the part of the increased decks when I read through the first time so I can see how Heroes that are intended for early and mid game can underperform. With the increased decks size yes that gives Swamp Thing more options but it also is not incredibly hard to counter. I troll my groups Swamp Thing players by buying locations and never playing them and destroying once I get a chance.

With how games go in my group (I play with Guruguru) the Flash isn't a common pick and we play a lot of 2 Hero games. Regardless I don't normally see Flash win often unless the person has a good plan ahead of time. I mention that we play 2 Hero games because I feel Harley Quinn is the number 1 followed quickly by Green Arrow. Now I know Harley is not as strong in a single Hero match but I feel that Green Arrow is always strong. His ability has the potential to generate the equivalent of 11 additional power from 1 card and it doesn't have a particular phase where it falls off.

Where I would put Starfire (HU) on your list is somewhere in the top 15. Like I said it is free draw ability and that gives you card advantage. Card advantage is the kind of thing that makes Wonder Woman and Lex Luthor early game monsters and why nothing that gives card advantage has a true drop off in game. As well the condition that causes you to not draw is a card type that is highly contested by players due to card quality. The high number of powerful superpower cards work to the advantage of Starfire (HU). If they take the superpower you draw a card on your turn, if they don't it means they give you a chance to take it and if you do you still get to draw. They can't win for losing. That's just my 2 cents though.

As for StormKing's list I'm very surprised by Superman but I'd have to guess that's for the aforementioned superpower viability for anyone. Other than that I think I haven't had enough time with Dr Manhattan to have a real opinion on how I feel there. I know I was rather down on both Bane and Constantine until I recently had games with both where I went hog wild and ran away with both so I understand that.

GuruGuru214
01-25-2016, 11:49 PM
I'd add that a few of these Super Heroes are very dependent on player ability. Constantine can be a powerhouse, but not everyone can exploit that (I certainly can't), whereas Green Arrow is a monster in anybody's hands.

We've only kept statistics on the last 13 games we've played, and haven't counted Watchmen games, but we've already got some interesting stats.


Our highest VP total goes to Red Robin and cost 12 Batman, with 94 (which was an absolutely brutal game of Teen Titans/Crisis 2/Crossover 1). In second, Phantom Girl is averaging 70.5 VP between two games, just ahead of Green Arrow in third, with an average of 69 VP to show for his two games. Our average winning VP is 65.85.

Additionally, our undefeated Super Heroes are as follows.

1 Win - Starfire (HU), Deathstroke, Red Robin, Blue Beetle, Batman (12)
2 Wins - Green Arrow, Sinestro, Phantom Girl

Our Super Hero with the most wins is Wonder Woman, with 3 wins out of 4 games.

Surprisingly, despite being our most picked Super Hero and absolutely in the top tier, Harley Quinn has only won 1 of the 5 games she's been chosen in.

StormKing
01-26-2016, 01:16 AM
As for StormKing's list I'm very surprised by Superman but I'd have to guess that's for the aforementioned superpower viability for anyone. Other than that I think I haven't had enough time with Dr Manhattan to have a real opinion on how I feel there. I know I was rather down on both Bane and Constantine until I recently had games with both where I went hog wild and ran away with both so I understand that.

Superman is a beast because the kick stack exists. He always has a good buy turns 1 and 2 regardless of what shows up in the line-up. If there are Super Powers out on his turn, even better.

Blackbird_13
01-26-2016, 02:52 AM
I'm confused, are you saying that you keep your deck as is between games? That's pretty weird if so, a lot of heroes are balanced the way they are because of their early game pressure (like Batgirl above).

If you're not using normal rules, it's fair to expect people to not understand your rankings.

As for your Swamp Thing explanation, that's still based on luck of Locations coming out, it doesn't increase his odds to use every card in the game combined since you're also including every other card. Not only are you adding more locations, you're adding answers to locations as well.

Based on the normal rules and understanding of the game and its balance, I would order the top 10 (using ANY sets with any expansions) as something like this:

1. Superman
2. Green Arrow
3. Bane
4. Ozymandias
5. Constantine
6. Dr. Manhattan
7. Beast Boy
8. Kyle Rayner
9. Starfire (Heroes Unite)
10. Felicity Smoak

I didn't explain that well, and I apologize. The games will be done in a tournament, bracket style, single elimination. That makes six rounds. Round 1 is a base game. Round 2 is a base game+add on. Round 3 is two base games.. etc... Round 6 being the entire deck. With each new matchup, the game will start anew... you start with 7 Punches and 3 Vulnerabilities. The games just get progressively longer and larger.

Keep in mind, however, that each set will be random. So you might end up having a Beast Boy v. Kid Flash match that draws the base game or Forever Evil as it's game that round, not TT. This is particularly important when ranking heroes that depend solely on a particular card text.. like "Time Travel", as there are very, very few cards in the entirety of the game that can help them.

I have never considered Constantine or Rayner as anything other than bottom tier.. very curious to see what I've been missing with those two! Bane as well, to a lesser extent.










I guess I missed the part of the increased decks when I read through the first time so I can see how Heroes that are intended for early and mid game can underperform. With the increased decks size yes that gives Swamp Thing more options but it also is not incredibly hard to counter. I troll my groups Swamp Thing players by buying locations and never playing them and destroying once I get a chance.

With how games go in my group (I play with Guruguru) the Flash isn't a common pick and we play a lot of 2 Hero games. Regardless I don't normally see Flash win often unless the person has a good plan ahead of time. I mention that we play 2 Hero games because I feel Harley Quinn is the number 1 followed quickly by Green Arrow. Now I know Harley is not as strong in a single Hero match but I feel that Green Arrow is always strong. His ability has the potential to generate the equivalent of 11 additional power from 1 card and it doesn't have a particular phase where it falls off.

Where I would put Starfire (HU) on your list is somewhere in the top 15. Like I said it is free draw ability and that gives you card advantage. Card advantage is the kind of thing that makes Wonder Woman and Lex Luthor early game monsters and why nothing that gives card advantage has a true drop off in game. As well the condition that causes you to not draw is a card type that is highly contested by players due to card quality. The high number of powerful superpower cards work to the advantage of Starfire (HU). If they take the superpower you draw a card on your turn, if they don't it means they give you a chance to take it and if you do you still get to draw. They can't win for losing. That's just my 2 cents though.

Hmm.. interesting.. I'm gonna have to say I was wrong about Starfire (HU).. and you have a good point. Green Arrow is also quite strong.. but I didn't know if he'd be an absolute top tier. I've had a few people say that maybe he should be though.

Oh, and if you're doing teams... Swamp Thing & Flash makes a really good team.. even hard to beat with the obvious Wonder Woman/Green Arrow combo.





I'd add that a few of these Super Heroes are very dependent on player ability. Constantine can be a powerhouse, but not everyone can exploit that (I certainly can't), whereas Green Arrow is a monster in anybody's hands.

Surprisingly, despite being our most picked Super Hero and absolutely in the top tier, Harley Quinn has only won 1 of the 5 games she's been chosen in.

Agreed. Also.. I feel like Harley's ability is good, but we also haven't found her to win many of the games she's played in, to our surprise.

StormKing
01-26-2016, 12:43 PM
Constantine, one of the biggest things is turn 2 shuffle. Add to that the fact that he also doesn't mind kicks and any buy you made that wasn't optimal to your deck can disappear for some extra power, AND cards that check the top of your deck (or conditional draws) are pretty useful with him, he's just all around really strong.

Kayle Rayner isn't bound to specific card types, in fact he's encouraged to mix it up. Use his ability whenever you don't have THE BEST card in your deck in your hand. Cards that pull from or check your discard pile are also incredibly strong with him, and he can safely buy defense cards without them going to waste if he's not attacked since you can cycle them away. Some people don't really get why he's so great, until they get hit by Mind Control Hat every turn and it all makes sense.

Bane is downright ridiculous, he literally doesn't care what he buys at all because no matter what it is, if he doesn't want it he can blow it up for more power. Bane almost always takes out the first boss within the first 4 turns in games I've played and he really only needs 2 kicks to do it. When I play with Ban/Pick, he's almost always my choice to Ban.

GuruGuru214
01-26-2016, 02:12 PM
Huh, interesting. I'm going to have to give some of these a shot. Some practice with them might be just what I've been needing to shake up my play style, and it might turn me around entirely on Constantine. The main issue I have with him, Bane, and playing Forever Evil in general is that it's really hard to get past my aversion to trading VP later for Power now.

Even when I played a game of Watchmen this weekend with Constantine and Ozymandias, I found that I wasn't using Constantine's ability much, even with full control over the top card of my deck, though part of that was that I was using Ozymandias to keep cards out of my hand that I didn't want to run down the main deck with, so I was really working against myself.

Here's our most banned cards and how they've performed in our games to end up that way.

Green Arrow is a monster. Villains are always one of the most plentiful card types, a 2 power boost on the boss stack is huge, and we find that Green Arrow players never have a hard time coming up with the Punch they need to trigger him. He's a beast in the early game and doesn't slow down much as his deck grows. Definitely should be higher up the list than 10.

Harley Quinn already has a pretty decent ability. With the large number of discard-based Attacks, she has some measure of built-in defense, and there's plenty of cards in most sets that she can trigger discards with. Where she really shines, and gets banned for it, is pairing with other Super Heroes in the two headed games we tend to play. She's one of the few oversized characters who can directly trigger off their partner, and the extra card is a huge boost. She's particularly insane when paired with Red Lantern Supergirl or Phantom Girl.

Bizarro tends to be a curious one for us. The main thing with him is that he has a built-in way to get rid of Weaknesses with no trouble, and it can lead to some pretty large hands if done correctly. He doesn't tend to make it past the ban phase in any game with Forever Evil in the Main Deck. Outside of that, I would generally say nobody seems to pay much attention to him, other than a couple odd bans.

Sinestro is also odd, in that he had been used in the past but was never really worried about, but recently he's become one of the most popular first round bans. I suspect that the issue is his multi-faceted ability. If a Sinestro player can get their hands on a decent number of Attacks (usually not too difficult), the VP boost he generates can be substantial. Aside from that, he has a draw ability triggered by any gain of VP, whether through his own ability or not, which makes him particularly fierce either in a game of Forever Evil or when paired with Black Adam. Honestly, though I've done well with him in the past, I feel like he shouldn't be getting banned nearly as often as he does, but the group hive mind has recently decided he's a huge threat.

I'm not sure that I'd call these my top four (though Green Arrow almost certainly takes the number 1 spot), but they're certainly the four that our group most often doesn't want to deal with.

StormKing
01-26-2016, 03:22 PM
I'm speaking purely from the standpoint of the heroes on their own. Pairing them with others really throws off the balance of the game.

GuruGuru214
01-26-2016, 05:53 PM
True, and that's why I tried to note where that was a factor in how it ran. I think the reason we run that variant so consistently is because we like the strategy of trying to create an effective team, especially when the other players see the first pick and try to strategize their second ban around it.

Now that you bring it up, though, I might consider encouraging the group to try more single hero games. It would certainly make the ban phase more interesting at any rate.

All that said, I think what I said about Green Arrow and Bizarro holds up for a regular single hero game, and I did try to evaluate Harley Quinn and Sinestro on their own. Just sort of observing why my group views those four cards as being so powerful and bans them so consistently.