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FluffyOne
01-26-2016, 05:46 PM
Man, is this a bloody train wreck of a starting deck if I've ever seen one. I'm not sure if this is the proper place to post this thread or not, if it needs to be put somewhere else let me know and I'll recreate it or you folks can move it on your own, following Tort's suggestion here. And I frankly am not sure where to even start with this but I'll say ahead of time I don't mean for this to be a thread senselessly bashing it, although it quite frankly deserves a bit of it, but more about criticism / suggestions.

To start off with, I've only played the Warrior class so far so I have no idea how much the other two deck archetypes differ, but from what I've heard in the chat box they aren't in any better shape than what I got. Everything I've seen of the campaign so far, from the music, to the UI, to the artwork, to the damn performance is stellar really, but all of that means nothing if you wish to use the Campaign as a way to attract more and more players because, quite frankly, everybody with half a mind will instantly be put off of what they receive in this thing. The decks are shit, plain and simple, and while I can understand the reasoning behind such a decision, especially since you folks wish to maintain the value of cards and all, this is simply ridiculous. Everything about it is constructed in such a way to offer the player the least amount of fun, the least amount of agency, and the most frustrating time of their life starting out versus an AI that has, for better or worse, an actually decently constructed deck when compared to your own. Each and every last game is almost entirely decided by RNG in regards to your draws and there's very little one can do to pull ahead unless he obtains specific cards. Simply put, unless the AI is utterly destroyed by RNG, which so far in some 10 games I played to finish the tutorial didn't happen, the player is at a clear, major disadvantage.

Sure, you can change your deck after the tutorial dungeon is over, but the amount of players one will lose before they even get there is downright staggering. There are simple ways to remedy this and it's all in regards to how the decks themselves are built as well as a few small touch-ups to the dialogue itself to better reflect the deck and more easily immerse the players.

Alright, enough bashing, let's talk about what can be changed and suggestions to make. To start off, the PC itself arrived alone at the main encampment while the Officers there expected a full-fledged regiment to reinforce them, regardless of what you might say to them. Things happen and you get sent off ahead as a scouting force alongside Sora towards the Castle. Now the first encounter is at the gates with a Coyote and before much dialogue / fluff / exposition can be given, a battle starts, after which Sora notes that Coyote's usually travel in packs and they should be weary of others lurking about. Instead of having it that way, why not introduce some more lines of fluff and exposition, talk about how the PC and Sora fight the Coyote and slowly pull back as they notice more of them approaching, then have Shin'Hare reinforcements rush in from behind. Seeing as the PC came in alone, it's not a stretch to say that the rest of the Regiment is somewhat scattered as well and the Officers back at camp are sending them forward as soon as they come to make sure you're properly reinforced. Then, star the battle and fill in the space afterwards where Sora talks about the Coyote's traveling in packs with something akin to instructing the troops, assessing their numbers, so on and so forth. This would both tie in the various Coyote's summoned by the enemy as well as the Hoppers you summon into play, over all making the player feel more immersed in the whole thing.

But of course, this would require some deck changes as well. For instance, the Raptors have no business being in the starting deck as far as I'm concerned and I utterly loathe the fact they are you're only viable win condition, Bannerbunnies excluded since they are not nearly as reliable. Same goes for Shadowgrove Witch and Zombie Vulture, there's no proper explanation for their presence there. One can even argue there are too MANY Concubunny's in the deck and that replacing them with more Blossoming Concubunny's would serve a better purpose, plus make more sense from a lore perspective. Uzume is still the Grand Mommy of the whole bunch and one that's not properly initiated in their order, such as the Blossoming is to be assumed, would be more rebellious and end up on the front lines more often than a fully-fledged Concubunny. Instead of the cards mentioned here, you can easily replace them with Militia's, Bucktooth Commanders, Blood Bearer's, or even Shroomshaw's assuming they can be used as pack mules / pulling supplies along instead of just carriages with Nobles. This would make the game more fair, still keep it a fair challenge, and most importantly NOT GIVE NEW PLAYERS THE IMPRESSION THE GAME IS UTTERLY P2W.

I can't stress that enough, in the current starting decks, everything is so utterly shit most people will just run for the hills before they finish the starting dungeon because they won't know better and because you didn't offer them any reason to doubt that judgement. I mean, you got 11 Blood Shards and the majority of the Blood cards are pretty much useless 9/10 games due to how the rest of the deck is set up. If you introduce Shroomshaw's and Blood Bearers alongside the already existent Milky Eye's you can more easily explain them while also reducing some of the wild shards due to the removal of Tyrannosaurus Hex with more small troops, even Surprise Runt Gang.

I may be babbling here, tired and exhausted, but you get the point I assume. Everything about this campaign is superb but the starter decks themselves are simply inexcusable and ruin everything else until you get to the point where you can edit the deck, and most players starting out are NOT going to bother sticking around after dealing with a worthless hand, field, and deck for the 12th time while the enemy can actually develop his board until the mid-late game consistently. Discuss and all that good stuff, my plans aren't absolute, criticize the shit out of 'em

knightofeffect
01-26-2016, 06:18 PM
Idk man, I've only played the Elf Mage so I can't really speak to your experience until I create more characters, but I have found the deck perfectly adequate, haven't lost a game yet despite some rudimentary misplays, a couple mulligans, and suboptimal draws. Perhaps the elf mage is just particularly good, although I currently don't feel that is the case.

Venris
01-26-2016, 06:26 PM
From my shin'hare starter experience, it was pretty bad. Not terrible, but still pretty bad. Wins mostly came down to abominating a vulture. I was originally planning on just tweaking the deck, in the end it got a full rebuild.

AdamAoE2
01-26-2016, 06:26 PM
Human deck seems alright as well. I can't speak to the Shin'hare deck, but I played as Human Mage, had some close calls, but haven't lost yet.

Eilinel
01-26-2016, 06:27 PM
Following the in-game chat, this complaint seems to be specific only to the shin'hare decks. Players using any other races don't seem to have this kind of experience. Obviously the decks are far from optimal, that's normal for a basic starting deck, but they're certainly playable and capable of clearing the starting dungeon without significant problems (shard screw/flood and terrible opening hands aside).

FluffyOne
01-26-2016, 06:30 PM
Good to hear some of the other decks didn't get shafted as badly then. And to more easily explain the issue with the Shin'hare deck, at least the warrior variant, without going on tangents, it's a flood / buff-centered deck as far as the Rabbits are concerned without any real guarantees you can get the buffs rolling in time. No Onslaught or Bucktooh, only Evolve and Bannerbunny, the later of which is simply too slow and offers too little to do much so you're forced to rely on the cards that aren't inherently related to the Shin'Hare such as the Raptor and the Vulture. I dunno, personally I find that a flaw in design when it comes to the deck.

Selanius
01-26-2016, 07:40 PM
I can confirm the human deck is great, I'm to the Mesa and haven't had any real troubles.

Unspecified
01-26-2016, 08:35 PM
I saw Pentachills streaming the Shin'hare deck and it did seem sub-par. I can really only speak to the Vennen deck though and it's... serviceable. I feel the Vennen deck was a little top heavy but it works well enough.

IFlip92
01-26-2016, 09:43 PM
I can confirm same experience with Necrotic Warriors so far. Clerics seem to be a bit better due to the Vultures instead of the Phantoms in the Warrrior deck. The 3rd encounter (the bridge one) wrecked me as a Necrotic Warrior because of the lack of synergy and scaling where the Outriders ( 0/5 troop which gains attack equal to defence when attacking) were just trampling me in a ridiculous manner. After 3-4 tries with nowhere near victory I immediately deleted the Necrotic Warrior character and started my current Necrotic Cleric.

I hate the fact that they seem to be very themed as well. I mean why chose a race called Necrotic to just get Buffalos and irrelevant crap like that in your deck? Also, what is the point of that silly spell which makes you sacrifice a troop to give another +3/+3 when there's not many troops to be had anyway. Basically forcing you to have 1 massive troop which opens you up for removal...

Vorpal
01-26-2016, 10:06 PM
Not all starter decks are equally good.

Vennen and shin hare starter decks are amongst some of the worst.

They can win, you just kind of need to draw your cards in a very specific order.

I think human, dwarf, and orc starters are all very strong, if people are struggling.

Gryffe
01-27-2016, 02:21 AM
Tested Shin'Hare as well.

One of the main problem is that you have no relevant 1-2 drops. The 1-2 troops in the deck only serve as cannonfodder for the higher cost cards (abomination, banner, elite runic ears), but since you have nothing to make you draw more cards or fish specific one (can you use the term "ramp" here ? I'm a newbie in TCG), you'll often end with neither troops nor shards, and you'll have to tank with your champion alone for the... first four turn ?

There's too few win-condition with the starter deck. Right now, all you have is concubunny + elite runic ears, lots of hopper + bucktooth banner, or praying that your zombie vulture will make it past the defensive line. Add to the mix the lack of card drawing before Sora and Deployment orders, and you're good for some serious level of RNG here.


Addendum : also, I don't understand the point of the shadowgrove witches at all. Every time I draw them, I'm like "what am I going to do with these ?". They're terrible stat wise, albeit quite tanky, and the passive doesn't help at all since I already have big crushing troops and killblades to deal with minions.

Cainhu
01-27-2016, 02:51 AM
So far I only tried shin'hare and coyotle, and the bunnies seems really underpowered. Basically all cheap troops are for hopper generation, except the killblades. The 3 cost troops are also not so good on their own, so if your opponent have a good start then it's an uphill battle.

I was able to win all battles in the Crayburn Castle with my cleric, and only lost once... but it was harder and much more random than with the coyotle warrior. Concubunny is really great to help to win with either bannerbunny or the elite if you have the time. I didn't draw the vultures yet to use.

Kingrags
01-27-2016, 02:58 AM
I agree that shin hare is absoulutly hard mode

Xenavire
01-27-2016, 03:55 AM
The shadowgrove witches are some of the best troops in the deck, because they build you a wall to set up behind. If you only look at the shin'hare in the deck, then it's a bit meh, but as a whole you have good enough cards to clear the starting area.

Cainhu
01-27-2016, 04:09 AM
The shadowgrove witches are some of the best troops in the deck, because they build you a wall to set up behind. If you only look at the shin'hare in the deck, then it's a bit meh, but as a whole you have good enough cards to clear the starting area.

Well, i's quite sad that in a shin'hare deck the hare component is "meh". But I agree that the witches are good for defense... but I don't understand why we didn't get a similar costed hare in it's place. (for example Rune Ear Burrower or Mercilles Culler)

Xenavire
01-27-2016, 04:15 AM
Well, i's quite sad that in a shin'hare deck the hare component is "meh". But I agree that the witches are good for defense... but I don't understand why we didn't get a similar costed hare in it's place. (for example Rune Ear Burrower or Mercilles Culler)

The defense is really important, and neither of those are guaranteed to work well. Now I didn't say the hare side was bad, just meh - playing well I have saved myself from the jaws of death multiple times (got through the starting area with no losses) and I couldn't have done that without the Concubunnies or the Surprise Runt Gangs (and the killblades helped immensely, removing key targets.) It just doesn't seem perfectly tuned for new players, which is a bit of a pain.

pyrovoice
01-27-2016, 05:22 AM
tl;dr ?

Antfunk
01-27-2016, 06:23 AM
I'm surprised to hear that Vennen are bad. My friend is playing a Venna cleric which I thought looked really OP. He is just using the given/won cards and having a great time including an instance whereby he milled the entire opponents deck through spiderlings.

The_Lannisters
01-27-2016, 07:08 AM
I can only talk about my experience with a Vennen Cleric. No issues at all. I've got a decent collection but decided to go through the campaign with the basic given deck and any perks picked along the way. Again, no issues whatsoever.

Seluhir
01-27-2016, 07:14 AM
Coyotle Cleric Starter deck seems to be like 75% shards. I haven't looked at the actual decklist yet, but I was thoroughly flooded in every match of the first dungeon.(most of my starting hands had 4-5 shards, and if it didn't, I drew like 4-5 shards in a row).

Cainhu
01-27-2016, 07:24 AM
Coyotle Cleric Starter deck seems to be like 75% shards. I haven't looked at the actual decklist yet, but I was thoroughly flooded in every match of the first dungeon.(most of my starting hands had 4-5 shards, and if it didn't, I drew like 4-5 shards in a row).

Coyotle starter is 25 shards, 35 other cards. I guess it0s the same for every race.

kindmime
01-27-2016, 07:28 AM
It is not pay to win, just think of it as an old school rpg were you can not just expect to do the linear quest and be fine with the upcoming fights. You might have to gain experience to advance to either loot better cards or get better talents.

I thoroughly enjoyed it even with the lag I did not sleep all night and finished the campaign. I will be doing Cory's suggestion today and just using the cards I receive and starting deck I fully expect the need for me to do earlier encounters more than once just to receive cards so I can make my deck better.

This is not pay to win its just not as "steamrolly" and straight forward as some newer rpgs. Enjoy the difficulty, its hard nowadays to find a game that actually challenges oneself.

Veetor
01-27-2016, 07:40 AM
This is not pay to win its just not as "steamrolly" and straight forward as some newer rpgs. Enjoy the difficulty, its hard nowadays to find a game that actually challenges oneself.

Too true, if it's easy everyone will be like well that was easy and forget about it, but if it's a challenge you'll be happy when you do figure out how to beat it. Or if that one day RNGesus lets you through. I still have memories of really hard NES games that I luck sacked through the hard encounter with a crit hit.

I mean you play to entertain yourself, I would hope. Just freely running through something doesn't sound all that entertaining to me.

Incindium
01-27-2016, 07:46 AM
I didn't get too far last night but I am playing the Shin'Hare as a Mage so far with only found cards. It's definitely a deck that requires you to be patient until you can get critical mass on the board but I've been enjoying it so far.

Strom
01-27-2016, 07:52 AM
I think dwarf warrior/cleric is the best to start for a new player. And btw it's the difficulty of the encounter that's make all the beauty of the campaign. I would have been crazy if it was just like tha arena where u bash and bash opponent without any strategy

Ertzi
01-27-2016, 07:56 AM
Shin'hare seems much more difficult than Human, that is true, but it is nowhere near unplayable. The games take a bit of time though, which I don't mind at all. So far I have only lost to shard screw, which is also acceptable, as it has only happened twice in like 6 hours or something.

Strom
01-27-2016, 07:59 AM
Can someone tell me what the elf/cleric does ?

regomar
01-27-2016, 08:11 AM
Coyotle Warrior deck is actually pretty good. I've played through the startling area and a few battles in the overworld with no modifications at all and Ive never come close to losing a game.

Xenavire
01-27-2016, 08:15 AM
Can someone tell me what the elf/cleric does ?

The blessings create a constant that you can sacrifice to give yourself 1/0 resources for the turn.

bwarner
01-27-2016, 08:16 AM
I've been playing as a Necrotic Warrior with only found cards and have gotten as far as the first overworld dungeon. My only loss so far was to the Corrupted Dryad. I even managed to come back against the fairies after they randomly transformed something into a Jank Bot and were able to play it on turn 2 (luckily it subsequently bounced itself by pulling a Yesterday from their deck and then I was randomly given a spot removal a bit later). I agree that the deck isn't the same strength I'm used to using, but solid tactics can still win out in most cases.

RamzaBehoulve
01-27-2016, 08:18 AM
Didn't lose even once with human warrior so far if some are struggling with another race/class combo.

YourOpponent
01-27-2016, 08:34 AM
I actually found the T-Rex and Vultures NECESSARY for getting through the tutorial dungeon as a Shin'Haar Cleric and cleared the dungeon without any losses. I had to mulligan a few times of course, but once you understand what that deck is trying to go for it's not so bad and only removed the abominate, T-rex, and vultures (for the most part) until level 4 on the campaign...that's where I'm starting to have a hard time as a Shin'Haar Cleric, but even so things are doable on the tougher fights with designing decks to defeat the encounters and a bit of luck.

the_artic_one
01-27-2016, 08:43 AM
I'm at the second dungeon with Shin'hare warrior and the only time I've lost was to the piranhas. The deck isn't awful, it just takes a while to get going, I usually end up facetanking a lot of damage or stalling with concubunny chumps while I get the board to a critical mass state so I can win. There are quite a few good targets for abominate in the deck which helps a lot.

Vorpal
01-27-2016, 09:19 AM
Also note that the guys you face in the castle are different, depending on your race. Human fight necrotic. Necrotic fight human. Orcs fight vennen. Etc.

So not only may some starter decks be less good than other - but some opponents may have better decks than others.

darkwonders
01-27-2016, 10:13 AM
Also note that the guys you face in the castle are different, depending on your race. Human fight necrotic. Necrotic fight human. Orcs fight vennen. Etc.

So not only may some starter decks be less good than other - but some opponents may have better decks than others.

Each Race faces their sworn enemy

Human => Necrotic
Orc => Vennen
Coyotle => Shin'hare
Elves => Dwarves

pjvedder
01-27-2016, 10:27 AM
I can confirm same experience with Necrotic Warriors so far. Clerics seem to be a bit better due to the Vultures instead of the Phantoms in the Warrrior deck. The 3rd encounter (the bridge one) wrecked me as a Necrotic Warrior because of the lack of synergy and scaling where the Outriders ( 0/5 troop which gains attack equal to defence when attacking) were just trampling me in a ridiculous manner. After 3-4 tries with nowhere near victory I immediately deleted the Necrotic Warrior character and started my current Necrotic Cleric.

I hate the fact that they seem to be very themed as well. I mean why chose a race called Necrotic to just get Buffalos and irrelevant crap like that in your deck? Also, what is the point of that silly spell which makes you sacrifice a troop to give another +3/+3 when there's not many troops to be had anyway. Basically forcing you to have 1 massive troop which opens you up for removal...

I'm running Necrotic Warrior as well and I haven't had any issues yet at all. No problems getting through the Outriders and the first dungeon. Maybe i'm just getting decent draws, i don't know?

Regarding Abomination (the "silly spell"), that's actually a great card with this deck. If you can get out a Spiritbound Spy and one other troop, buff up your Spy with whatever you have (shift powers, Bravery, whatever), and then sacrifice him with Abominate and you have a buffed flyer (since he transforms into a Phantom) plus whatever troop you buffed with abominate. Your opponent's deck can't stop buffed flyers if i remember, so with him in play, you should have no problem.