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View Full Version : Criticism of Chained Goliath Encounter [Spoiler on mechanics]



Brjuntinaar
01-27-2016, 02:13 PM
I'm sure that not too many people have made it to this encounter yet. It is punishing, and pretty difficult, especially compared to the content around it. That said, I'm fine with its difficulty.

What I'm not fine with is that there is literally no exposition about what many of this thing's abilities are. We find out before the encounter that the giant:
-Deals 1-3 dmg at the end of each round.
-Starts with :blood::blood::ruby::ruby:
-Can't draw cards

There is no charge counter displayed through the first 4 turns of the match that I could see.

And that's all we know. During the battle, though, we find out that the goliath does draw cards -- a whole hand in fact all at once. When he draws those cards, all of a sudden, his charge power comes available, and he deals 4-5 damage to all of your troops. The charge power makes two 3/1 speed sac-at-EOT elementals. He also sets the player on fire, and I couldn't figure out how he does that. Also, when the player draws his cards, he draws a special encounter card that creates 3 1/1 flyers.

Anyways, if I knew what was coming, or why these things were happening, I wouldn't have any issues with the encounter. It's pretty difficult, but that's a good thing! I just want to understand what is happening and why different things are happening, and I think it does a poor job at explaining both.

Seraph_Hex
01-27-2016, 02:16 PM
I'm sure that not too many people have made it to this encounter yet. It is punishing, and pretty difficult, especially compared to the content around it.

Its actually fairly easy, you just build up your army until he is somewhere above 25 health (thats the health he flips) and then alpha strike him.

Edit:


-Deals 1-3 dmg at the end of each round.

To himself, that part is important...


I just want to understand what is happening and why different things are happening, and I think it does a poor job at explaining both.

The Boss has 2 different phases with different abilities, that basically it.

I am fine with what it is, actually one of the more interesting ones. I do not know if you played any actual mmo but you rarely have any idea on what the boss does until you engage him in a fight and figure out all the different phases and abilities.

Brjuntinaar
01-27-2016, 02:25 PM
Oh, it flips at a certain HP? If I had understood the 25 life mechanic it would have been much more manageable.

It was difficult when you are a mage and start with 14 life, and don't understand any of the mechanics. Both of my first attempts, I just tried to alpha strike him from the start each time. Then when he would flip, I'd be at 5-6 life, and that turn he'd kill all my guys and the ones who didn't die would be tapped out, then he'd end me with the elementals.

Brjuntinaar
01-27-2016, 02:33 PM
I am fine with what it is, actually one of the more interesting ones. I do not know if you played any actual mmo but you rarely have any idea on what the boss does until you engage him in a fight and figure out all the different phases and abilities.

I guess that's true, hadn't thought about it that way.

I still think that something before the fight to indicate when *crazy flip thing* occurs would help. Even if all the mechanics of crazy flip thing aren't explained, knowing when its going to happen would be nice. Something completely ambiguous like "at 25 life, the chains of the goliath break free", or even some sort of dialogue pop up during the fight like "the chains of the goliath have broken free!" would be very helpful.

Metronomy
01-27-2016, 02:40 PM
why doesnt it say that he flips at 25...i needed 4 runs to find this out...this is unnecessarily cruel

Seraph_Hex
01-27-2016, 02:40 PM
some sort of dialogue pop up during the fight like "the chains of the goliath have broken free!" would be very helpful.

Mechanics-wise I was ok with how it went, his picture, passive and charge power changed and he did cast a card out of thin air. That to me was enough of a give away to understand what was going on.

Immersion-wise I would agree with you.

Metronomy
01-27-2016, 02:57 PM
i bet you guys this will spark outrage...if you know he transforms at 25 the fight is doable...if you dont you just wont succeed....thing is that it is at the end of a dungeon...as a single special encounter this would have been great..but this way this realy annoyed me

Salverus
01-27-2016, 02:59 PM
can you cast healing spells on him to delay the point where he flips ?

Jormungandr
01-27-2016, 03:13 PM
My guess is that this is the way raid encounters will be as well, as that's sort of tried and true MMO design. Even dungeon bosses would go through phases, or have large attacks that you'd have to figure out the rules about when a dungeon / raid was new. Basically, this is day 1 content without walkthroughs. Eventually (even in this thread) the community will compare notes and there will be detailed information about encounters.

I enjoy figuring this stuff out, so this sort of thing is a big plus for me, but I can see how it would unexpected for folks not expecting it.

Seraph_Hex
01-27-2016, 03:46 PM
can you cast healing spells on him to delay the point where he flips ?

You should be able to.


I enjoy figuring this stuff out, so this sort of thing is a big plus for me

For me as well.

Zurai
01-28-2016, 01:44 AM
Phase 2 does not start at 25 health, it starts at 20 health. He gains 1 charge per turn in phase 1, and when phase 2 starts he deals damage to all of your troops equal to the number of charges he has, so "be slow and build up your army then blitz him down" is a godawful terrible strategy against him.

nicosharp
01-28-2016, 01:56 AM
Phase 2 does not start at 25 health, it starts at 20 health. He gains 1 charge per turn in phase 1, and when phase 2 starts he deals damage to all of your troops equal to the number of charges he has, so "be slow and build up your army then blitz him down" is a godawful terrible strategy against him.

Perhaps the HP Phase 2 starts at varies, but for me, it was always 25 HP.
Build up and blitz is actually a great strategy, and is how I beat him. I guess it really depends on the deck you are playing, and if a blitz game is something you can achieve by turns 5-7.

katkillad
01-28-2016, 02:09 AM
He's gone to phase 2 at 25 health my last two fights.

redman2112
01-28-2016, 02:48 AM
I just lost to him, sadly my first dungeon loss. He is a tricky encounter and my deck just couldn't muster enough of an army to take him out alpha strike mode. My question is the ability he plays when he transforms says that it can't be interrupted. Now does that mean it just can't be countermagiced or I can't respond with a blinding light or shard ward either?

poizonous
01-28-2016, 03:00 AM
Can't be interrupted strictly means you can not counter it but you can binding light or shard ward

Maylick
01-28-2016, 03:01 AM
I just lost to him, sadly my first dungeon loss. He is a tricky encounter and my deck just couldn't muster enough of an army to take him out alpha strike mode. My question is the ability he plays when he transforms says that it can't be interrupted. Now does that mean it just can't be countermagiced or I can't respond with a blinding light or shard ward either?

Can't counter it. Still can play your own spells.

redman2112
01-28-2016, 03:09 AM
Can't be interrupted strictly means you can not counter it but you can binding light or shard ward

That is great to know, either of those in my deck and it will work just fine!

Elwinz
01-28-2016, 05:37 AM
Its noti health related, its like turn 5 or something. I played mono blod control i barely touched him yet hi changed at tunr 5. casting inferno breath, and then he instnatly ddraw second one ( he had 8 charges) double wipe for 8 and draw 8 cards wanst possible,

wolzarg
01-28-2016, 06:36 AM
As a non elf mage this fight disgusted me its just way too much damage that is near impossible to prevent and the randomness makes it worse.

Kilo24
01-28-2016, 06:38 AM
I would have no problem with him as a single encounter on the world map. Then it would be an interesting challenge that you could try a variety of approaches on. But as a boss at the end of a dungeon, every 2-3 attempts you make involve slogging back through encounters you've already beat and getting no loot for it. The urge to spoil it for yourself becomes quite strong in that case.

Now, I beat him on the second fight because I knew the gimmick from chat. But it would have been quite frustrating to go through the dungeon again and again to figure it out myself. That's something I've experienced from losing multiple runs to the Devonshire boss, and he's much less of a puzzle boss.

Alamand
01-28-2016, 07:05 AM
Personally, I beat it on my 2nd dungeon attempt by playing nothing but queen grace and just reducing the cost of everything in my hand and then dumping it after he triggered, if you can survive the 2 3/1s every turn his deck isn't really that scary. Though I could see it being far harder for a mage without the hp to draw things out.

They definitely need to better communicate what's going on in the fight, but I think once you know the gimmick the fight is manageable, though that could be because I went with a human warrior against it so I had tons of options.

Maybe a good compromise would be to have the thorn knight encounter give you some kind of buff to make the fight more manageable, because right now that fight doesn't seem to serve a purpose and can easily be skipped. That way if you know the encounter and are on farm mode you can just do the dungeon as it is now, but if you're new to it or have weaker options you can take the time for the extra fight.

Elwinz
01-28-2016, 07:18 AM
SKIp it ? isnt tthat final boss? ;p

primer
01-28-2016, 07:54 AM
Its noti health related, its like turn 5 or something. I played mono blod control i barely touched him yet hi changed at tunr 5. casting inferno breath, and then he instnatly ddraw second one ( he had 8 charges) double wipe for 8 and draw 8 cards wanst possible,

It seems to be both health and turn related. He phase changed twice at turn 3 on me when going under 25hp. The game I didn't damage him he just cast the 5 cost card on turn 5.

Alamand
01-28-2016, 07:55 AM
SKIp it ? isnt tthat final boss? ;p

If that's referring to my post, the thorn knight is the encounter down and left from the entrance to the dungeon, with the statue and the coffin and the choose one charge power.

I've only done the room once and chose to inspect the statue and got nothing, every other time I've done the dungeon I've skipped it to no ill effects.

kindmime
01-28-2016, 08:18 AM
As a pvp player yes a player pulling an unknown card out of his ass the first time would be very "unfair". You are to know all the cards in the set and use that knowledge to your advantage assuming oh he might have so and so.

But this is pve you are to expect the unexpected, you know bosses will have higher power level cards. In other mmos high end raid guilds don't know the boss is going to go into a frenzy at 20% until they actually experience it. do you ever hear guilds after say oh that frenzy was unexpected, not really because they usually read up boss mechanics. I am sure in a few days you COULD do the same thing if you wanted to.

Truthfully though after reading all of his powers did you really think he would just let you smack him in his face until he was dead. No one then would would complain he was too easy then?

gjaustin
01-28-2016, 08:54 AM
Also, does anyone know what the "bonus" from the Coalition at the entrance does? It shows up on every battle in the dungeon but I can't figure out what you get from it.

Angmar
01-28-2016, 09:30 AM
As a pvp player yes a player pulling an unknown card out of his ass the first time would be very "unfair". You are to know all the cards in the set and use that knowledge to your advantage assuming oh he might have so and so.

But this is pve you are to expect the unexpected, you know bosses will have higher power level cards. In other mmos high end raid guilds don't know the boss is going to go into a frenzy at 20% until they actually experience it. do you ever hear guilds after say oh that frenzy was unexpected, not really because they usually read up boss mechanics. I am sure in a few days you COULD do the same thing if you wanted to.

Truthfully though after reading all of his powers did you really think he would just let you smack him in his face until he was dead. No one then would would complain he was too easy then?

Having spent plenty of time raiding in a top 1% WoW guild I have to say it feels completely different happening here. You wipe in a typical MMO and you're right back to fighting the boss 5-10 minutes later. You often get a couple hours of attempts before the trash respawns and you are forced to reclear to the boss.

Here you die 2-3 times and its done. That just feels awful if the mechanics aren't apparent for you to tune your deck against.

I don't think this is a terribly offensive example, but its indicative of future problems.

Zurai
01-28-2016, 11:02 AM
Having spent plenty of time raiding in a top 1% WoW guild I have to say it feels completely different happening here. You wipe in a typical MMO and you're right back to fighting the boss 5-10 minutes later. You often get a couple hours of attempts before the trash respawns and you are forced to reclear to the boss.

Here you die 2-3 times and its done. That just feels awful if the mechanics aren't apparent for you to tune your deck against.

I don't think this is a terribly offensive example, but its indicative of future problems.

Exactly. I think it's fair to say I'm a veteran raider -- I spent years of my life doing cutting edge raids in multiple different games. Notice that WoW actually has a native in-client description of each and every boss ability accessible outside of the fights and has for quite a while now.

Yes, I expected him to become unchained at some point in the fight. I didn't expect him to completely annihilate my board and then hit me for 15 damage with 15 burning and force me to discard my card which removes those burning counters.

Alamand
01-28-2016, 12:08 PM
Also, does anyone know what the "bonus" from the Coalition at the entrance does? It shows up on every battle in the dungeon but I can't figure out what you get from it.

That's the holy water you get every fight that lets you void a zombie, not incredibly useful but nice to have.

gjaustin
01-28-2016, 12:36 PM
That's the holy water you get every fight that lets you void a zombie, not incredibly useful but nice to have.

Is that an artifact like the Taming Sphere, a card in hand like the Rose Knight, or something else?

Because I'm reasonably confident I didn't get anything like that.

nicosharp
01-28-2016, 12:43 PM
Is that an artifact like the Taming Sphere, a card in hand like the Rose Knight, or something else?

Because I'm reasonably confident I didn't get anything like that.
It's an artifact. You get it I believe for correct dialogue at the foot of the dungeon. Perhaps it's class specific, but I'm not sure. I did notice dungeon variation based on the threshold I was playing in my deck... at least in Devonshire - I'm not sure what other variations people experienced on their playthroughs, but there is some non-linear content. I believe the dream dungeon also contains a variable boss based on text decisions made.

kindmime
01-28-2016, 12:49 PM
Having spent plenty of time raiding in a top 1% WoW guild I have to say it feels completely different happening here. You wipe in a typical MMO and you're right back to fighting the boss 5-10 minutes later. You often get a couple hours of attempts before the trash respawns and you are forced to reclear to the boss.

Here you die 2-3 times and its done. That just feels awful if the mechanics aren't apparent for you to tune your deck against.

I don't think this is a terribly offensive example, but its indicative of future problems.

The whole thing though these fights aren't thought of in a vacuum I believe (could be wrong here) that each dungeon is thought of as a well so you could not bring one deck archetype to crush a single boss. In the future this might change with mercs. Here though at least your know you CAN defeat the boss. As well many fights in mmos you spend 10 minutes to get to a difficult part of the fight only to have to redo the whole fight to encounter the one tough stage.

If there comes a dungeon where you need to go against 10-15 stupid encounters to go against one super boss I could change my view on this but it seems to me that they put these encounters in the "open world map" such as piranhas, queen wormoid, so you would not have to go through trivial encounters to continue your shot at one strong boss.

Maybe they could make it so you make it to the last boss and are saved with that deck still but any changing of the deck makes you restart the dungeon. I don't think any of these dungeons are long enough to warrant that but it could be if dungeons get very large.

What guild were you in? (Just curious) I was in Midwinter, unfortunately I quit a few months before invited to Blizzcon.

gjaustin
01-28-2016, 01:09 PM
It's an artifact. You get it I believe for correct dialogue at the foot of the dungeon. Perhaps it's class specific, but I'm not sure. I did notice dungeon variation based on the threshold I was playing in my deck... at least in Devonshire - I'm not sure what other variations people experienced on their playthroughs, but there is some non-linear content. I believe the dream dungeon also contains a variable boss based on text decisions made.

I've run the dungeon twice and picked both dialogue options. I definitely didn't get an artifact.

Were you Ardent or Underworld?

nicosharp
01-28-2016, 01:24 PM
I've run the dungeon twice and picked both dialogue options. I definitely didn't get an artifact.

Were you Ardent or Underworld?
Ardent - Okay, that may be the distinction.

gjaustin
01-28-2016, 01:32 PM
Ardent - Okay, that may be the distinction.

Yeah, I was Underworld.

I'll give it another go tonight when I'm home and see if I still don't get anything. If so, time for a bug report!

Thanks.

redman2112
01-28-2016, 02:03 PM
I just thought of something, would drowned shrine of Ulthar prevent him from drawing those 8 cards and instead he would just draw one?

Metronomy
01-28-2016, 02:33 PM
I would have no problem with him as a single encounter on the world map. Then it would be an interesting challenge that you could try a variety of approaches on. But as a boss at the end of a dungeon, every 2-3 attempts you make involve slogging back through encounters you've already beat and getting no loot for it. The urge to spoil it for yourself becomes quite strong in that case.

Now, I beat him on the second fight because I knew the gimmick from chat. But it would have been quite frustrating to go through the dungeon again and again to figure it out myself. That's something I've experienced from losing multiple runs to the Devonshire boss, and he's much less of a puzzle boss.

This.

I invested 3 hours cause I did not know the gimmick. Felt just frustrating. Meanwhile as a single special encounter that would have been great.

nicosharp
01-28-2016, 02:42 PM
This.

I invested 3 hours cause I did not know the gimmick. Felt just frustrating. Meanwhile as a single special encounter that would have been great.
It took me about 3 hours to complete Devonshire, maybe a bit longer - 3x runs for this dungeon mentioned in OP all wiping on the final boss, and 3x Devonshire runs. I enjoyed it! They have to gate some content to be challenging. There is definitely a feeling of accomplishment and progression when you get through it, and relatively fair reward for those efforts. I'd like to see Chark bump the rewards up a bit regarding gold for the dungeons though, as they are more challenging than arena, and far less rewarding over-all, even at early levels.

Alamand
01-28-2016, 04:42 PM
Yeah, I was Underworld.

I'll give it another go tonight when I'm home and see if I still don't get anything. If so, time for a bug report!

Thanks.

For underworld you get that 1/1 speed shift guy. Thought you were ardent since the artifact is a lot less noticeable. I'm also pretty sure you get it no matter what you say.

Showsni
01-28-2016, 05:35 PM
I just thought of something, would drowned shrine of Ulthar prevent him from drawing those 8 cards and instead he would just draw one?

Sneaky! Of course, then you have a Drowned Shrine in your deck that doesn't do much for the rest of the dungeon.

Once you know his gimmick he seems fairly easy. I just built up a board of inspiring humans then alpha struck when he got down to 27 health, finishing him in one go.

That was my second time through the dungeon. First time through it took me to partway through the third fight with him to work out what was going on - and by then it was too late.

AdamAoE2
01-28-2016, 08:45 PM
This fight was nasty! Definitely a horrible horrible fight for a 14 life Mage.

However, after being pulverized three times, i went through my collection to figure out what could help me survive his crazy onslaught.

http://i.imgur.com/rCHW3ki.png

Deathless Guardians with the equipment makes this fight much much easier. Not only does it give you more time in the beginning of the fight to prepare, but it prevents all of the warriors in your deck from dying a horrible nuked death when he morphs. Finally, they are able to eat the Blaze Elementals without trading which is nice.

GhundiPI
01-29-2016, 12:04 AM
Once I knew the mecachanic, the fight was manageable. Not an easy win (had to run the dungeon a few times) and my deck needed a few small adjustments. But at least I knew what to do and how I could try and beat it.

I agree with others that the boss mechanic could have been explained a bit better. Doesn't have to be exact, but at least hint at the transformation happening at an (unknown) amount of health. Before I knew this, the fight was extremely frustrating as I could not find a strategy that worked. Now mostly this was my own fault for not paying enough attention (I blame sleep deprivation! :)), but in the entire campaign this was the only fight that frustrated me in not knowing what to do.

Still, together with the Worms and a few others, the Chanied Goliath encounter is now one of my favorite fights.

Goliath764
01-29-2016, 12:36 AM
Playing a Vennen Mage, I was naive enough to think that his 60 cards deck is just there to prevent easy spider generation...I was so wrong. I was lucky enough to get some spiders out after the boss goes H.A.M. to defend against his charge power while I build up the board for a dragged out win, can't really blitz much with a Vennen deck :).

I think some hints on the boss would be cool, maybe on the dialogue after some of the nodes before the boss for example, especially on the room with the optional fight. Out of curiosity though, do you get the card that generates 3x Rose Knight(or something like that) if you have not cleared that room?

LeMazing
01-29-2016, 01:42 AM
Gotta say, this was easily my favorite encounter of the whole campaign so far.

After reading his abilities before the fight began, I was really confused about why he was gaining charges and had a deck at all if he couldn't draw from it. I absentmindedly thought "oh well" and started beating the crap out of him. Then I hit the magic number, he transformed, and I had a 20 minute adrenaline rush while I very narrowly beat him.

I've been so impressed with the variety in encounters, and this fight in particular makes me look forward to raids.



On one hand, I can somewhat sympathize with being upset at not knowing everything about an encounter before beginning it. But on the other hand, that's what makes it exciting for me. I do get that being thrown surprises at the end of a dungeon and having to grind through previous encounters to get back to the end is frustrating.

ShloobeR
01-29-2016, 01:52 AM
Cool encounter!

I unfortunately got confused because the goliath transformed after exactly 5 turns every time (This is because I coincidentally caused that much damage after 5 turns each time D:). Certainly the most challenging fight so far without feeling inherently unfair.

However, I'm a bit bummed that the goliath can be alpha striked without being given a chance to transform, feels a little bit game-y. I'd like to feel that you have to survive his rage explosion to beat him!

On the topic of not being given enough information, I fully agree with the way it's been done now. I like not knowing how it works and having to experiment a little bit (Although, I would have thought the 'explosion' card would mention 'put this into your hand & play this for free when your health drops below 25'

Darklight
01-30-2016, 06:45 PM
Cool encounter!
However, I'm a bit bummed that the goliath can be alpha striked without being given a chance to transform, feels a little bit game-y. I'd like to feel that you have to survive his rage explosion to beat him!


I like to think my characters a genre savvy enough to shoot the think in the head BEFORE he breaks his chains. :)

zadies
01-30-2016, 08:11 PM
Sorry but the idea the game should spoon fed all of a bosses abilities is sickening. Next you will want HexEnt authorized deck lists for every encounter and be told exactly how every dialog option will effect the final encounter. I am sorry but doing that in interface instead of as a cheat sheet outside the game complete destoys an idea of a competitive pve scene. Sorry but boss should be learn to play the first few weeks after content release.

Xenavire
01-30-2016, 10:10 PM
Sorry but the idea the game should spoon fed all of a bosses abilities is sickening. Next you will want HexEnt authorized deck lists for every encounter and be told exactly how every dialog option will effect the final encounter. I am sorry but doing that in interface instead of as a cheat sheet outside the game complete destoys an idea of a competitive pve scene. Sorry but boss should be learn to play the first few weeks after content release.

I am still not convinced that we will ever get an endorsed competitive PvE environment. The main reason for which is that the only true measure of how 'good' you are is being the fastest/first to beat an encounter, and I'd say a lot of factors go into how fast someone could beat something.

Take the PvE launch as an example of one of the many factors that can skew results wildly - some players lucked out with the lag/latency and beat the entire of PvE within a day, while days later the worst affected are still struggling. I am not convinced that HexEnt will want to encourage people to play in such a way with so many potential problems disrupting results.

Now if they had special PvE events that reset weekly, and certain actions were tracked, that could be cool, but making that competitive would be challenging.

CrystalShard
01-31-2016, 06:36 AM
Just chiming in to drop a quick "thank you, guys". I really never noticed that he transforms at 25 health, I also thought it would be after turn 5 because by that time, I got him to this much health.

Okies, will be time for another try there. Cheers all.

BenRGamer
01-31-2016, 08:29 AM
Personally, I think the boss would be fine IF there were chain counters or cards.

Like, 15 chain counters that go down whenever he loses 1 life, so you know it's not a good thing when it runs out and makes it more understandable why it happens.

Xexist
01-31-2016, 09:07 AM
Personally, I think the boss would be fine IF there were chain counters or cards.

Like, 15 chain counters that go down whenever he loses 1 life, so you know it's not a good thing when it runs out and makes it more understandable why it happens.

Im on the fence. The WoW player in me, where we had to figure out boss mechanics to progress, thinks this kinda encounter is fine. Its all part of the game. The Card player in me agrees with you that there should be more obvious indications that something is happening / will happen.

All in all, I personally hope they DONT change it. Because learning mechanics is part of the fun, maybe one day there will be super hard bosses to figure out. I look forward to that :p

Lafoote
01-31-2016, 09:11 AM
I had the fortune of seeing him first with a Coyotle cleric. Between Prophecy and Righteous Paladin growth I had sufficient troops survive his explosion. I was too busy killing him to death to realize he changed at that point.

For me, the encounter in the equipment room was much more troublesome. Dumb luck prevented me from drawing either Skyguard troops or Repel in multiple games.

Xenavire
01-31-2016, 09:17 AM
Personally, I think the boss would be fine IF there were chain counters or cards.

Like, 15 chain counters that go down whenever he loses 1 life, so you know it's not a good thing when it runs out and makes it more understandable why it happens.

But then healing him wouldn't slow him down! (I have yet to actually employ that strategy, but its definitely a worthwhile idea.)

HellFro
01-31-2016, 09:55 AM
I loved this encounter and enjoyed my bewilderment as I played it. "Wait, so he's not gonna attack me at all? Why does he have a full deck then? Holy $hit he just transformed! Ahhh, why does it hurt?!"

This is pretty much the reason to play PVE. Keep up the good work HXE!

shadeofnight
01-31-2016, 11:30 AM
Hello,

This was indeed a hard encounter. I was able to beat it by blitz of a green mage deck by increasing the size of my units above the damage he could do, and then killing him. It did take a lot high end gear and high end cards that I have collected from playing the adventures before the campaign was out.

Dream Stags and Wild Mages where critical in winning this fight for me.

Ertzi
01-31-2016, 11:49 AM
This is easily my favorite encounter in the campaign so far. When I first saw the Goliath's abilities, I knew it was too good to be true, but I had no idea what would happen. I was very cautious and nervous. Then BOOM! Shit hit the fan and I needed to think on my feet. I managed to kill him the very first time I met him, but the flavor and atmosphere still lingers on my mind. I also liked the different phases in this encounter. I might hate this encounter with my next character, but for now it is my favorite.

By the way, my most hated encounter is the one where I am constantly forced to choose if I want to give the opponent two cards or lose 1/1 permanent resources. I don't know why, but that fight always feels horrible to play. I just effing hate having to make that decision every single turn.

Brjuntinaar
01-31-2016, 12:07 PM
My thoughts have changed slightly since I originally posted this topic. All that I really hope is changed with encounters like this in the future is that some sort of emote or dialogue system is added which tells the player what is occurring in the fight. So here, once it hit 25 health, an emote would appear saying "The chained goliath has been freed!" or the chained goliath would say to the player "I am free!"

Good MMO design employs those elements, by the way. Most MMO bossess are made to go out of their way to speak to players and emote exactly what is happening to them during a fight, so that players are able to pick up on the mechanics -- and figure them out on their own.

Xexist
01-31-2016, 12:18 PM
My thoughts have changed slightly since I originally posted this topic. All that I really hope is changed with encounters like this in the future is that some sort of emote or dialogue system is added in the future which tells the player what is occurring in the fight. So here, once it hit 25 health, an emote would appear saying "The chained goliath has been freed!" or the chained goliath would say to the player "I am free!"

Good MMO design employs those elements, by the way. Most MMO bossess are made to go out of their way to speak to players and emote exactly what is happening to them during a fight, so that players are able to pick up on the mechanics -- and figure them out on their own.

I can get behind better communication. :)

BenRGamer
01-31-2016, 01:32 PM
My thoughts have changed slightly since I originally posted this topic. All that I really hope is changed with encounters like this in the future is that some sort of emote or dialogue system is added which tells the player what is occurring in the fight. So here, once it hit 25 health, an emote would appear saying "The chained goliath has been freed!" or the chained goliath would say to the player "I am free!"

Good MMO design employs those elements, by the way. Most MMO bossess are made to go out of their way to speak to players and emote exactly what is happening to them during a fight, so that players are able to pick up on the mechanics -- and figure them out on their own.

Yeah, this is basically what I was trying to say with the counters idea, better communication.

sukebe
01-31-2016, 02:03 PM
Its noti health related, its like turn 5 or something. I played mono blod control i barely touched him yet hi changed at tunr 5. casting inferno breath, and then he instnatly ddraw second one ( he had 8 charges) double wipe for 8 and draw 8 cards wanst possible,

It is 100% damage based. His ability deals 1-3 to you and to himself so he has his own countdown timer. even if you don't damage him, he is hurting himself to get free of his chains :-)

Personally, I loved this encounter even though I had to try it 2 times. I like that we can be surprised at least once and don't mind losing some time to some fun/challenging encounters.

fido_one
01-31-2016, 05:56 PM
I had the fortune of seeing him first with a Coyotle cleric. Between Prophecy and Righteous Paladin growth I had sufficient troops survive his explosion. I was too busy killing him to death to realize he changed at that point.

For me, the encounter in the equipment room was much more troublesome. Dumb luck prevented me from drawing either Skyguard troops or Repel in multiple games.

I was binge watching "Person of Interest" so I was more clicking mindlessly in the dungeon than really focusing on the game, but I think it took my Coyotle Cleric a solid 5 runs before I took him down.

It was SOOOO good. The campaign is a delightful background grind to do while watching TV. I was just casually clicking and having fun losing. How awesome is that? Having fun losing? The campaign is a great game to give your full attention to, but daaaaammmn!, I think it has replaced the 'Disgaea' franchise as 'the game you can play while really focusing on something else' as well.

Vorpal
01-31-2016, 09:30 PM
How are people alpha striking him down in 5 turns? I assume you would have to go first so you would get your turn 5 before he gets his. That still seems like a pretty tall order.

It seemed easier to get troops big enough to survive his wipe on turn 5 (righteous paladin, etc)

ShloobeR
01-31-2016, 09:42 PM
How are people alpha striking him down in 5 turns? I assume you would have to go first so you would get your turn 5 before he gets his. That still seems like a pretty tall order.

It seemed easier to get troops big enough to survive his wipe on turn 5 (righteous paladin, etc)

Assuming you don't do any damage to him you have between 5-15 turns before he breaks free of his chains, (with an average of about 7-9 turns). for the vast majority of decks 7-9 turns will be enough to get a 25-27 damage alpha swing out.

On the other hand as others have mentioned there are cards which can just neutralize his break free mechanic as well (blinding light being the obvious one)

Cernz
01-31-2016, 11:46 PM
turn 2 hunger of the mountain god = gg ;D

Vorpal
02-01-2016, 08:56 AM
Oh, both times I tried he converted on turn 5 on the nose, even when I didn't play anything. I figured it was hard set to convert at 5 turns.

Piecetinker
02-01-2016, 10:12 AM
Are we really in that day in age where we need everything spelled out for us instead of figuring it out on our own? Is that what the main issue is here?

For me, I thought it was a super cool surprise that he switched. My first reaction was: "Oh this fight is super easy, I got this". 4 Turns later I had the "OH $%$@" reaction. THAT WAS SUPER COOL.

If it wasn't a surprise, it would be quite boring. It's not like this is some super competitive PvP mode where you are expecting something and something else happens instead. That I can understand if it wasn't clear.

PvE is supposed to be fun. It is supposed to have surprises. Games today all have some immersive breaking tutorials that tell you to "Walk here". "Follow the yellow trail". "Do this and do that". If that's considered fun, that I fear for the next generation of "Simon Says" gaming.

Koz
02-01-2016, 10:15 AM
I do not recommend playing this encounter as a Vennen mage when it's really late and you're extremely tired and need to work in the morning...Man was that frustrating lol. I was determined to beat it before I went to bed, but I was too tired to actually think clearly enough to put a proper deck together designed to beat the encounter. So I beat my head against the wall until I punched a hole and then went to work on 4 hours of sleep.

Oddly enough, now that I'm more clear headed with some coffee in me, I'm coming up with all kinds of ways to tune my deck to beat it, lol. I'm going to run it again tonight with some new ideas and see how it goes, I'm sure I will have far less trouble.

However, I will say that being a Vennen mage in this encounter is rough. All of the advice about "just save up your troops and alpha strike him right before he flips" is a lot harder when you start with 16 health.

Brjuntinaar
02-01-2016, 10:57 AM
I do not recommend playing this encounter as a Vennen mage when it's really late and you're extremely tired and need to work in the morning...Man was that frustrating lol. I was determined to beat it before I went to bed, but I was too tired to actually think clearly enough to put a proper deck together designed to beat the encounter. So I beat my head against the wall until I punched a hole and then went to work on 4 hours of sleep.

Oddly enough, now that I'm more clear headed with some coffee in me, I'm coming up with all kinds of ways to tune my deck to beat it, lol. I'm going to run it again tonight with some new ideas and see how it goes, I'm sure I will have far less trouble.

However, I will say that being a Vennen mage in this encounter is rough. All of the advice about "just save up your troops and alpha strike him right before he flips" is a lot harder when you start with 16 health.
It's very funny that you just posted this, because I was about to post the exact same thing about Vennen mage. The best thing I have come up with so far is to put Phenteo and a few other spider generators in the deck, along with what little lifegain there is in S/B. But if you do this you end up completely contingent on your luck with him drawing spiders from his 8 card draw, and sometimes that just doesn't happen (got him up to an 80 card deck last time and he drew no eggs...). I'm really not even sure the encounter is beatable as Vennen mage, so please let me know if you get anywhere.

Edit: By the way, you know you are getting desperate when you put an ivory pawn in your deck.

Svenn
02-01-2016, 11:13 AM
My thoughts have changed slightly since I originally posted this topic. All that I really hope is changed with encounters like this in the future is that some sort of emote or dialogue system is added which tells the player what is occurring in the fight. So here, once it hit 25 health, an emote would appear saying "The chained goliath has been freed!" or the chained goliath would say to the player "I am free!"

Good MMO design employs those elements, by the way. Most MMO bossess are made to go out of their way to speak to players and emote exactly what is happening to them during a fight, so that players are able to pick up on the mechanics -- and figure them out on their own.

This would be great! I love this encounter but I kept having to look around to fix out what was going on, and I didn't see half the abilities or even notice things like the burning on me until I got the free knights.

Elwinz
02-01-2016, 11:23 AM
are we really in that day in age where we need everything spelled out for us instead of figuring it out on our own? Is that what the main issue is here?

For me, i thought it was a super cool surprise that he switched. My first reaction was: "oh this fight is super easy, i got this". 4 turns later i had the "oh $%$@" reaction. That was super cool.

If it wasn't a surprise, it would be quite boring. It's not like this is some super competitive pvp mode where you are expecting something and something else happens instead. That i can understand if it wasn't clear.

Pve is supposed to be fun. It is supposed to have surprises. Games today all have some immersive breaking tutorials that tell you to "walk here". "follow the yellow trail". "do this and do that". If that's considered fun, that i fear for the next generation of "simon says" gaming.

this
When i get beaen i analize what beat me, what i cna do to prevent that etc .. Not just scrmeaming in chat this fight is reatarded cause i am banging head against the wall with dekc which doesnt work and call the fight broken or retarded.

Bullshit is xarlox with his terrors and uninterruptablre imba mill. Campaign is super fun and well designed

Quantius
02-01-2016, 11:36 AM
I haven't chimed in because I don't wanna be "that guy" cause I one-shot him my first time completely blind, but I do agree that there needs to be something that signifies a phase transition.

Bosses usually have various signifiers that they're changing or about to change phases. They change in appearance, say certain things, environmental effects, that kinda stuff.

I don't think you should have the fight explained to you at the battle screen, but I do think it should have started out with a deck wrapped in chains, and as you do damage the chains start to crack. Let's say 5 chains, and it takes 5 damage to break each chain. You, the player, don't know what's coming, but you see chains breaking - and know something is about to be unleashed.

And this is something I'd like to see more of, because multiple phase bosses are a really cool idea in a TCG.

Koz
02-01-2016, 11:48 AM
It's very funny that you just posted this, because I was about to post the exact same thing about Vennen mage. The best thing I have come up with so far is to put Phenteo and a few other spider generators in the deck, along with what little lifegain there is in S/B. But if you do this you end up completely contingent on your luck with him drawing spiders from his 8 card draw, and sometimes that just doesn't happen (got him up to an 80 card deck last time and he drew no eggs...). I'm really not even sure the encounter is beatable as Vennen mage, so please let me know if you get anywhere.

Edit: By the way, you know you are getting desperate when you put an ivory pawn in your deck.

I did eventually beat it, but it was a real PITA. Like you said, Vennen Mage is tough due to low starting health and not very many ways to gain health that doesn't involve doing damage (which just accelerates the flip). What worked for me was a combination of certain quick actions and cheap blockers. Basically I had to get to five mana before he flipped and then used Yesterday to clear the board after he dropped all his troops (I actually did this two turns in a row to really slow him down). Then, on the third turn after he flipped he used his charge power again to generate more Blaze Elementals, and also dropped a couple from hand that I had bounced. I then used Soul Devour with both equips (makes them quick and kills all troops with the same name) and killed all of his Blaze Elementals in one shot and gained me health at the same time. After that I was able to keep the cheap blockers and removal effects going until I could wear him down for the win. Ninja Training was also pretty clutch because it enabled me to kill off some guys (especially those Blaze Elementals and Cinder Knights) and then draw cards to keep my hand filled.

It worked, but everything had to go just right and it was a nail biter. I've got a much better idea to try tonight though. If it works, I'll post in here about it tomorrow.

Brjuntinaar
02-01-2016, 11:49 AM
I do not recommend playing this encounter as a Vennen mage when it's really late and you're extremely tired and need to work in the morning...Man was that frustrating lol. I was determined to beat it before I went to bed, but I was too tired to actually think clearly enough to put a proper deck together designed to beat the encounter. So I beat my head against the wall until I punched a hole and then went to work on 4 hours of sleep.

Oddly enough, now that I'm more clear headed with some coffee in me, I'm coming up with all kinds of ways to tune my deck to beat it, lol. I'm going to run it again tonight with some new ideas and see how it goes, I'm sure I will have far less trouble.

However, I will say that being a Vennen mage in this encounter is rough. All of the advice about "just save up your troops and alpha strike him right before he flips" is a lot harder when you start with 16 health.

Alright, this is really hilarious...I did finally beat this with vennen mage but it was basically due to luck. First of all, ivory pawn was an absolute lifesaver. You need to be using its equipment, but if you are, you can gain health not only whenever you play a troop, but also whenever your opponent does.

Anyways here is the hilarious part: I wasn't doing very good this attempt. I got mana screwed on turn two and missed two land drops. He was pinging me quickly and was going to flip soon. Well, he flipped and i had 4 mana open. I had gained enough hp from pawn to put me at like 9 life. He played his blaze elementals and two of those ghouls who randomly discard and return things from graveyard to hand when they die. Well, I had a kill spell in hand so I used it on one of them before he attacked. It died, and returned to his hand Inferno Breath!!! It wiped his entire board, and since he had already used all his mana, he wasn't able to do anything else that turn. Because I got two of the 0 mana rose knight spells (one from each inferno breath), it was pretty easy from that point. I dropped Archmage Wrenlocke, played both, and cleaned him up. Had like ~ 30 life at the end of the game.


I did eventually beat it, but it was a real PITA. Like you said, Vennen Mage is tough due to low starting health and not very many ways to gain health that doesn't involve doing damage (which just accelerates the flip). What worked for me was a combination of certain quick actions and cheap blockers. Basically I had to get to five mana before he flipped and then used Yesterday to clear the board after he dropped all his troops (I actually did this two turns in a row to really slow him down). Then, on the third turn after he flipped he used his charge power again to generate more Blaze Elementals, and also dropped a couple from hand that I had bounced. I then used Soul Devour with both equips (makes them quick and kills all troops with the same name) and killed all of his Blaze Elementals in one shot and gained me health at the same time. After that I was able to keep the cheap blockers and removal effects going until I could wear him down for the win. Ninja Training was also pretty clutch because it enabled me to kill off some guys (especially those Blaze Elementals and Cinder Knights) and then draw cards to keep my hand filled.

It worked, but everything had to go just right and it was a nail biter. I've got a much better idea to try tonight though. If it works, I'll post in here about it tomorrow.

Haha nice! I thought about playing trying out yesterday and/or stormcall in my deck, they both seem like pretty strong options.

Koz
02-01-2016, 11:53 AM
Alright, this is really hilarious...I did finally beat this with vennen mage but it was basically due to luck. First of all, ivory pawn was an absolute lifesaver. You need to be using its equipment, but if you are, you can gain health not only whenever you play a troop, but also whenever your opponent does.

Anyways here is the hilarious part: I wasn't doing very good this attempt. I got mana screwed on turn two and missed two land drops. He was pinging me quickly and was going to flip soon. Well, he flipped and i had 4 mana open. I had gained enough hp from pawn to put me at like 9 life. He played his blaze elementals and two of those ghouls who randomly discard and return things from graveyard to hand when they die. Well, I had a kill spell in hand so I used it on one of them before he attacked. It died, and returned to his hand Inferno Breath!!! It wiped his entire board, and since he had already used all his mana, he wasn't able to do anything else that turn. Because I got two of the 0 mana rose knight spells (one from each inferno breath), it was pretty easy from that point. I dropped Archmage Wrenlocke, played both, and cleaned him up. Had like ~ 30 life at the end of the game.



Haha nice! I thought about playing trying out yesterday and/or stormcall in my deck, they both seem like pretty strong options.

That totally happened to me one game too, lol. The zombie/ghoul thing died and he got his Inferno Breath back and I got a second Rose Knight card, and he drew 8 more cards. It was pretty funny, although I did NOT win that one. I don't remember exactly what happened, but I know I lost that one.

Xzaron
02-01-2016, 01:01 PM
My biggest issue thus far is how completely gimped a mage is compared to a cleric in some fights especially this one. As a vennen mage sticking with the vennen theme my last attempt i was down to 7 health before I was able to get him to transform. Wiping the board and bringing out 6 damage on your empty board(then i got ragefired but thats beside the point).

What would be essenetially starting this encounter at 22 health ish? on a cleric im at 7 on a mage this is a joke right? I realize that some classes will be harder/easier than others but it is quite laughable at how easy the cleric is in comparison.

Seraph_Hex
02-01-2016, 01:02 PM
Bosses usually have various signifiers that they're changing or about to change phases. They change in appearance, say certain things, environmental effects, that kinda stuff.

Oh, you mean like:


his picture, passive and charge power changed and he did cast a card out of thin air. That to me was enough of a give away to understand what was going on.

Edit:


Are we really in that day in age where we need everything spelled out for us instead of figuring it out on our own? Is that what the main issue is here?

Apparently we are/it is and it makes me sad, especially since this boss is my favorite encounter so far.

Selanius
02-01-2016, 01:04 PM
I really enjoyed the Chained Goliath fight, I lost a few times before I understood the mechanics and now that I understand how it works I crush him every time. The fight has a LOT of different ways to overcome it ranging from deck building options to how you execute your deck. I think this encounter is awesome.

Brjuntinaar
02-01-2016, 01:05 PM
My biggest issue thus far is how completely gimped a mage is compared to a cleric in some fights especially this one. As a vennen mage sticking with the vennen theme my last attempt i was down to 7 health before I was able to get him to transform. Wiping the board and bringing out 6 damage on your empty board(then i got ragefired but thats beside the point).

What would be essenetially starting this encounter at 22 health ish? on a cleric im at 7 on a mage this is a joke right? I realize that some classes will be harder/easier than others but it is quite laughable at how easy the cleric is in comparison.
I think that they need to take a serious look at the cost of most of the mage spells. For how much of a hit you take in HP, you just don't seem to get enough power / utility to make up for it.

Xzaron
02-01-2016, 01:06 PM
Yeah my cleric of 1? level higher has double the health of my mage and the spells for the most part are trash.

Xexist
02-01-2016, 01:14 PM
Yeah my cleric of 1? level higher has double the health of my mage and the spells for the most part are trash.

I do feel the spells are a little weak

Selanius
02-01-2016, 01:17 PM
I found the spells useful, however I agree with you that Cleric is a much stronger class at low levels. My Necrotic Cleric mono-blood control deck almost never loses while most Human Mage decks I put together would lose to aggro with a bad draw.

Koz
02-01-2016, 01:21 PM
I agree, it seems like they overnerfed the Mage. The spells are decent, but they're not so good that they need 14 health to compensate.

Brjuntinaar
02-01-2016, 01:55 PM
I do feel the spells are a little weak

I mean, the effects are pretty strong. Being able to bounce multiple things in a turn without having to pay mana for it, for instance, is a strong effect. But the cost of 6+1 for each cast is just too prohibitive. I think that across the board, spells should cost one less than they currently do. There are a few racial spells that are perhaps too strong to do that, but on the whole, I think it would balance out better.

So-- like, 5 cost for bounce, 3 cost for soothsaying. Those just seem like the right prices for the effects.

Edit: Oh, and by the way, have you guys tried out the talent that gives you one of the spell that copies something in your hand? That talent costs 2 and is hidden behind two layers of other talents, so I figured it must be pretty powerful. In actuality, its very weak. It's basically MTG's twincast, minus 1 to play. You can play it the turn before you cast the spell, which is good and useful, but not nearly enough to warrant a 2 talent point cost + other point investment, especially when you only get ONE of them in your 60 card deck.

fido_one
02-01-2016, 02:04 PM
I mean, the effects are pretty strong. Being able to bounce multiple things in a turn without having to pay mana for it, for instance, is a strong effect. But the cost of 6+1 for each cast is just too prohibitive. I think that across the board, spells should cost one less than they currently do. There are a few racial spells that are perhaps too strong to do that, but on the whole, I think it would balance out better.

So-- like, 5 cost for bounce, 3 cost for soothsaying. Those just seem like the right prices for the effects.

Edit: Oh, and by the way, have you guys tried out the talent that gives you one of the spell that copies something in your hand? That talent costs 2 and is hidden behind two layers of other talents, so I figured it must be pretty powerful. In actuality, its very weak. It's basically MTG's twincast, minus 1 to play. You can play it the turn before you cast the spell, which is good and useful, but not nearly enough to warrant a 2 talent point cost + other point investment, especially when you only get ONE of them in your 60 card deck.

The dwarf mage 'change troop into a random artifact' race-class ability has made the spell mechanic awesome for my guy, but I was less excited about the power with other races' spells.

Brjuntinaar
02-01-2016, 02:09 PM
The dwarf mage 'change troop into a random artifact' race-class ability has made the spell mechanic awesome for my guy, but I was less excited about the power with other races' spells.

Oh yeah...I bet! I haven't made a dwarf mage yet, but it's on my list of things i'd really like to try. I actually think the Vennen mage power is really strong, and it would be broken if it cost 1 spell power. It messes up combat continually for the ai, and because its so cheap, you can just keep doing it all game. Not really sure about other mage powers? Elf looks strong.

Saeijou
02-01-2016, 03:48 PM
i play a coyotle mage and really enjoyed the encounter :)

a little change of the deck, a little luck and i had him in the second try...
after the first try i thought "how the **** are going to do that? that's insane!" :D

Zurai
02-02-2016, 02:26 PM
Oh, you mean like:

Yes, because foreshadowing is the exact same thing as hindsight.