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MissMouffette
01-27-2016, 05:02 PM
This isn't a thread about the intro deck, or tutorial. This is a talk about the Shin'Hare racial talents, and what's so wrong with them.

First of all this is a particular comment about how bad they really are, and I'll use a bit of simple(very basic.) on the life portion, but for now a simple introduction, which will lead into their dungeon talents.

Shin'hare have always had it bad. They have never really been top tier as a race, and have never been very popular to begin with. Even in lore everyone thinks they're a joke, and weaklings. I get the racial passives are designed to make them "Tougher not stronger." race, but it doesn't do that at all. This is only in lore, and is a terribly implemented right now on the fact that they don't really do anything special they are in fact a race people have made a joke or two at for even playing once you saw what they do. Ironically that fits a races theme, but they shouldn't be so bad they don't have a reason to justifiably play them.

Extended lives- +2 dungeons lifes- This is just... Just something special. Later on humans get a extra mercenary which both in fun, and value probably completely outweighs this. Raw power wise. The name is also a bit silly since shin'hare are known for dying in droves.

Cute and fuzzy- +3 life. Literally the worst of the "Live longer passives." You could argue that necrotics is the worst, but necrotics can actually be good for two reasons. 1st off any bit of extra life combos well with armor. Second off armor is hard to come by and is inherently more valuable then their first passive. For a cleric this is far worse then +1 talent point.

Third racial trait is finish. It matches theme and works well, but they already have a fall back dungeon trait and this just adds insult to injury making them the "to bad to win race." This is easily done better by say letting them get their losing trait first and this with say, "Reinforcements" Start the game with a tunneled shin'hare from your collection, or perhaps even get a tunneled troop after a certain turn. This fits the underground, and there are more ofo them then you theme they have.

I'd rather not nag on the class/race talents, but those are also lacking quite heavily. Compare shin'hara mage to coyotte mage, or level 30 to necrotic level 30


Things that you did right in my opinion-
They are dungeon focused. They are a species that lives underground and prides itself on strong invading forces. This makes total sense, and makes a shin'hare feel good.

Much like the intro deck for vennen it isn't overly themed and poorly put together this time, but it still gives a good understanding, and tutorial for how the race plays.

Shin'Hare do have a really rough life and that's great to get across thematically. Just don't do it in way that feels like you're babying the player.

Shin'Hare actually are really cute. Players love this so a passive based off that is cool.


So in conclusion the themes, and ideas behind the passives were amazing. Execution essentially made them vastly under powered and a joke to experienced players. "Oh you play shin'hare. You must be new here." Which is a far worse problem then just being under powered.

EDIT

PS I thought you did a great job on most the pve patch, and will be making a complimentary post on the many success's and joys it has within the next few days once i've explored it fully. As of now.I just wanted to state that one obvious problem with balance/execution isn't that big, but if it isn't brought up they go left uncheckd, and I was very excited to try shin'hara before I saw there "Upsides."

Venris
01-27-2016, 05:18 PM
I have to say I agree wholeheartedly with this. I'm thinking those talents would end up being used for throwing a game right before the dungeon boss. This doesn't seem fun.

Salverus
01-27-2016, 05:26 PM
shinhare warrior lvl 30 lets you start with a cottontail recruiter in play for every battle. Good if you have militia boots, but when I selected him, I knew he would be underpowered until you reach that lv 30.
even that charge power to create a battle hopper is gone now.
also set3 had 0 new shinhare, maybe they get some love from set4 again.

MissMouffette
01-27-2016, 05:33 PM
shinhare warrior lvl 30 lets you start with a cottontail recruiter in play for every battle. Good if you have militia boots, but when I selected him, I knew he would be underpowered until you reach that lv 30.
even that charge power to create a battle hopper is gone now.
also set3 had 0 new shinhare, maybe they get some love from set4 again.
I do agree that one trait is really good, but that's a bit of a ways from now, and a entire race being lack luster feels a bit odd for once special talent of one class to be strong.

thegreybetween
01-27-2016, 05:46 PM
There are Shin'hare in Set 3: Guru of the Wounded Petal, Rune Ear Elite, Emperor's Lackey, Profane Ritualist; at least a few of them are even pretty good.

Personally, I am enjoying the Shin'hare Cleric, and the Fertility Magic class/race traits are excellent for several of my Shin'hare deck styles. I haven't found much need for the dungeon lives, but I'm not too deep into things at this point and have no idea of what to expect from the endgame (I read the name as "expendable lives" but I didn't spend much time in the screen. "Extended lives" is probably an homage to the lore for Emperor Ito/Yazukan, who have quite infamously extended their lives much longer than prudent political scheming can tolerate). The health boost is nothing special, but it is nice that a Shin'hare Cleric can begin at 25 HP for "Faith in our Leader" without the need for any talent point investment in HP talents.

All of that is to say that I'm really enjoying the race so far, and will hold judgment on how they compare to other builds until more is revealed and they legitimately show a lag.

Excellent feedback, though. Your concerns are very valid and may indeed highlight flaws in Shin'hare design. Time will tell.

frychikn
01-27-2016, 07:47 PM
So i just made a shinhare.... what is so bad about it exactly? The first race i started was vennen so maybe thats why i dont think they're that bad, but i think they are definitely manageable

MissMouffette
01-27-2016, 08:43 PM
So i just made a shinhare.... what is so bad about it exactly? The first race i started was vennen so maybe thats why i dont think they're that bad, but i think they are definitely manageable

It's not that they are "Bad" also the point is once you grow accustomed to the game. They're race passives are actually very weak compared to other races.

They also provide, "when you're doing bad effects." Which makes shin'hara only helpful to scenarios where you or your deck didn't perform, and you're goal as a player is to stop that from happening. Not say, "My race will take care of that."