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MatWith1T
01-28-2016, 08:21 AM
This is an ingeniously devilish way to forgo the responsibility of telling users when the terms of service have changed.

If users only have to agree once to the T&C upon their first login, then the burden falls to Hex to notify users when they change - because the new T&C are not the ones we already agreed to, and can't be enforced based on our old approval. We have to re-agree to the new terms.

But if we have to agree every single time we access the game, T&C can be changed without notice because it shifts the burden to the user. There's no need for Hex to notify users 'Your prior acceptance is no longer valid because the T&C have changed' when your prior acceptance doesn't carry over anyways.

The new T&C checkbox is #1) Annoying and #2) Potentially malevolent.

Was this by design? Does Hex still plan on informing people about ToS changes?

If you know me (and I assume most people don't, but if you do...), you know I'm generally supportive and apologetic for most Hex decisions. This one just strikes me as particularly odd because it was obviously an intentional UI change, and it seems to me the only possible intents are to either make the login experience less enjoyable or to enable sneaking in ToS changes without the typical public discussion (aka arguing) that happens on the forums. As much as I think the ToS discussions in the forums are overblown and melodramatic, its better than no discussion at all.

Svenn
01-28-2016, 08:26 AM
If I understood correctly, this is more related to German laws than anything. It has to do with Gameforge being the NA publisher now.

Mike411
01-28-2016, 08:47 AM
Well there were issues with the previous 'acceptance' system because the acceptance was only linked to the installation, not any particular account. I think that's why it changed.

I agree with it being annoying... 'remember me' should also keep the terms checkbox checked.

Svenn
01-28-2016, 08:49 AM
Here's a good in-between if possible... once checked it stays checked, UNTIL it changes. Then it unchecks itself so you know there were changes.

Phenteo
01-28-2016, 08:57 AM
Just to be clear, there is no malicious intent here. It could be a QoL changed to have it always checked, but having you manually check it ensures that you understand and agree to the Terms of Service. Previously, there are no requirements to make users aware of/if when they may change, that is entirely your responsibility.

GobBluth
01-28-2016, 09:06 AM
Just to be clear, there is no malicious intent here. It could be a QoL changed to have it always checked, but having you manually check it ensures that you understand and agree to the Terms of Service. Previously, there are no requirements to make users aware of/if when they may change, that is entire up to your responsibility.

This is pretty twisted logic in my opinion. So what you're saying is that before each time we log into the game we should review the Terms and Conditions document and compare it to a previous TandC to ensure that there were no changes. No one is going to do that. Saying that "its for our own protection" and making it seem like Hex is doing us a favor by having us check TandC every time is disingenuous.

Xenavire
01-28-2016, 09:09 AM
I think this should simply stay checked until a new T&C is introduced or a different account tries to log in - that way we aren't forced to tick it constantly, while also having a handy reminder to review the T&C when it changes.

Really, the repeated clicking is not doing good things for my mood, when faced with occasional lock ups due to the servers.

Turtlewing
01-28-2016, 09:12 AM
Just to be clear, there is no malicious intent here. It could be a QoL changed to have it always checked, but having you manually check it ensures that you understand and agree to the Terms of Service. Previously, there are no requirements to make users aware of/if when they may change, that is entire up to your responsibility.

Let's be honest. It really just ensures we checked the "check me or you can't log in" box.

It's less likely that a user actually reads the whole T&C every time they log in than it was that they read it every time they are prompted that it's changed, and even the later is somewhat optimistic.

Phenteo
01-28-2016, 09:14 AM
This is pretty twisted logic in my opinion. So what you're saying is that before each time we log into the game we should review the Terms and Conditions document and compare it to a previous TandC to ensure that there were no changes. No one is going to do that. Saying that "its for our own protection" and making it seem like Hex is doing us a favor by having us check TandC every time is disingenuous.

That is how most companies work when it comes to terms & conditions. You agree that the company is not required to inform you when they update. Though, we at HEX have always informed you when we've updated our ToS. We're not hiding or being disingenuous. I am being honest when I say it is your responsibility as a consumer to know what you're agreeing to.

Jormungandr
01-28-2016, 09:20 AM
Yeah, the fact that changes to the ToS aren't communicated to me via having a new one pop up is concerning to me, too. That's what I've come to expect from Hex & from other online games. It may not be a requirement, but it's an accepted practice. I also do understand that it's not malicious, but I know that I'm certainly not going to read the ToS every time I log in.

Even if you included a version number next to the link or something so that I can just remember that I've approved ToS version 1.0 and if I see it changed to 1.1 I probably ought to read it (or more likely come to the forums and read a post someone has made outlining the changes) that would be a big improvement. Right now I don't know that it's changed, and so the only way to track changes is to read it every time I log in, which is something that I realistically won't do, and most people won't do. Of course if you do track the version of the ToS, then you can also track whether that ToS has been approved on the computer before and default in the checkbox. (Other accounts can still opt out when they log in on that computer since there's a checkbox now, but at least most people who only log in on one account on a machine would only have to accept the ToS once per version)

Veetor
01-28-2016, 09:23 AM
or simple language: "by logging into the game you agree to ToS" no checkbox needed and completes the contract of adhesion as well.

Phenteo
01-28-2016, 09:24 AM
Yeah, the fact that changes to the ToS aren't communicated to me via having a new one pop up is concerning to me, too. That's what I've come to expect from Hex & from other online games. It may not be a requirement, but it's an accepted practice. I also do understand that it's not malicious, but I know that I'm certainly not going to read the ToS every time I log in.

Even if you included a version number next to the link or something so that I can just remember that I've approved ToS version 1.0 and if I see it changed to 1.1 I probably ought to read it (or more likely come to the forums and read a post someone has made outlining the changes) that would be a big improvement. Right now I don't know that it's changed, and so the only way to track changes is to read it every time I log in, which is something that I realistically won't do, and most people won't do. Of course if you do track the version of the ToS, then you can also track whether that ToS has been approved on the computer before and default in the checkbox. (Other accounts can still opt out when they log in on that computer since there's a checkbox now, but at least most people who only log in on one account on a machine would only have to accept the ToS once per version)

When the ToS was on HEX Ent's side, we had an updated date. I don't see that in the newest one with GF. I will email them to see if that could be added to help. But adding revision numbers and being able to display that in-game would be nice QoL addition as well.


or simple language: "by logging into the game you agree to ToS" no checkbox needed and completes the contract of adhesion as well.

I can't speak to German laws, but that would work for US laws.

darkwonders
01-28-2016, 09:26 AM
We consumers like to be very lazy :)

The less clicking we need to do, the better!

Phenteo
01-28-2016, 09:30 AM
We consumers like to be very lazy :)

The less clicking we need to do, the better!

I understand. Who really wants to read over 60 pages whenever Apple updates their T&Cs?

malloc31
01-28-2016, 09:32 AM
That is how most companies work when it comes to terms & conditions. You agree that the company is not required to inform you when they update. Though, we at HEX have always informed you when we've updated our ToS. We're not hiding or being disingenuous. I am being honest when I say it is your responsibility as a consumer to know what you're agreeing to.

This is not how most companies work. Other games and programs when terms change a new ToS pops up you need to agree to. With my credit cards, insurance, and bank accounts when the terms change I get a letter explaining it.

I do not know if stealth changes to a ToS is strictly illegal but it is definitely shady.

Kalis
01-28-2016, 09:40 AM
I never bother to read the ToS anyways. I mean I have to agree to it to play the game so it isn't like I am every going to not agree no matter what it says and there are legal limitations to what they can put in it anyways(Like they can't put something in that says if you agree to this we steal all your money). Also every ToS says basically the same exact thing as the ToS for every other game.

Xenavire
01-28-2016, 09:41 AM
I understand. Who really wants to read over 60 pages whenever Apple updates their T&Cs?

If I ever deal with apple, I'll be checking for CentiPad clauses. <_<

What about my suggestion Phenteo? Every new patch you could reset the checkbox, but the rest of the time it would remember it was checked - viable solution or too convoluted?

Phenteo
01-28-2016, 09:42 AM
This is not how most companies work. Other games and programs when terms change a new ToS pops up you need to agree to. With my credit cards, insurance, and bank accounts when the terms change I get a letter explaining it.

I do not know if stealth changes to a ToS is strictly illegal but it is definitely shady.

I think you're trying to be a contrarian at this point. Many terms and conditions state the company doesn't have to make the user aware of when they change. However, we and many other companies do try to make you aware of when they change.

Svenn
01-28-2016, 09:42 AM
If I ever deal with apple, I'll be checking for CentiPad clauses. <_<

What about my suggestion Phenteo? Every new patch you could reset the checkbox, but the rest of the time it would remember it was checked - viable solution or too convoluted?

Hey, I suggested that 2 posts earlier! :-P

Xenavire
01-28-2016, 09:44 AM
Hey, I suggested that 2 posts earlier! :-P

Well I had added to it, but both posts got ignored :p

Not trying to credit hog or anything, just want the idea to get some traction.

Turboflex
01-28-2016, 11:25 AM
I think you're trying to be a contrarian at this point. Many terms and conditions state the company doesn't have to make the user aware of when they change. However, we and many other companies do try to make you aware of when they change.

As pointed out, lots of companies are pretty explicit to update clients of ToS changes, especially financial firms/banks, they send letters out to clients. They do that because for them serious money is at stake if a court case came down to ToS technicalities and they know that pointing to stealth ToS changes isn't a great legal argument, nor is "everyone else does it". For tech companies the stakes usually aren't very high when it comes to software or websites usage so they can be more cavalier about the ToS, but in regards to HEX we're talking about collections that are actually worth money so maybe you guys should consider carefully the potential downsides of going down this route, it may not hold up so well in a serious dispute.

regomar
01-28-2016, 11:52 AM
This is not how most companies work. Other games and programs when terms change a new ToS pops up you need to agree to. With my credit cards, insurance, and bank accounts when the terms change I get a letter explaining it.

I do not know if stealth changes to a ToS is strictly illegal but it is definitely shady.

This. This new change is absolutely NOT a standard practice Phenteo. At least not in Canada or the US, both of which I have lived several years in.

Seluhir
01-28-2016, 12:04 PM
That is how most companies work when it comes to terms & conditions. You agree that the company is not required to inform you when they update. Though, we at HEX have always informed you when we've updated our ToS. We're not hiding or being disingenuous. I am being honest when I say it is your responsibility as a consumer to know what you're agreeing to.

Every single online game I've EVER played has forced me to accept the updated ToS every time it's changed, but not every time I play. I don't think it's unfair to ask for the same consideration from Hex.

Zophie
01-28-2016, 12:07 PM
I can only speak from experience, I have no legal understanding of this, but most MMOs I play that make you agree to a TOC when logging in only make you agree when there is an actual update to the TOC. So you agree the first time you log in, every login afterwards you don't need to agree again, then a few weeks/months later there's an update, you log in and agree again, rinse, repeat.

You know it seems like this issue might have stemmed from the TOC being agreed to on a client level as opposed to a server level. In the past when we agreed to the TOC it changed a file in our installation directory to indicate we agreed, but it wasn't tied to our login so if someone else logged into their account on our computer they wouldn't see the TOC or have a chance to agree to it. People on the forums were concerned about that so it looks like they made this change to guarantee that everyone agrees by checking the box. However, this could all be avoided if the client was programmed to show the TOC after the user logs in but before giving access to the game, and then track the acceptance of the TOC on the server, not on the client. That way it doesn't matter where I log in from, the game server will know if I've accepted the updated TOC or not, and force the client to show it to me and agree to it before I can play. Then after that the server knows I've accepted this version of the TOC and it automatically bypasses it when I log in until next time there's an update.

BenRGamer
01-28-2016, 12:10 PM
Best way I can see how to handle it is the same way steam does.

'Terms of sevice last updated [Date]'

BenRGamer
01-28-2016, 12:13 PM
This. This new change is absolutely NOT a standard practice Phenteo. At least not in Canada or the US, both of which I have lived several years in.

This is how it works when you buy a game on steam.

Have a check box about the ToS...

Phenteo
01-28-2016, 12:16 PM
Just to be clear, there is no malicious intent here.


Though, we at HEX have always informed you when we've updated our ToS. We're not hiding or being disingenuous.

Just reiterating that we have always informed our players when changes were made, I don't expect this to change anytime soon even if you have to manually check the box before logging in.

Seluhir
01-28-2016, 12:18 PM
It's more an annoyance factor than anything. Especially since Hex is so tab-unfriendly.

Fred
01-28-2016, 12:26 PM
While we're on the topic, are there any updates on the specific set of rules for Hex (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=46547&page=12&p=537869#post537869) regarding things that simply don't make sense in the actual generic terms of service? I understand that legal documents take time, but leaving us in limbo for this long isn't healthy.

Also, I'm getting confused as to which legal document applies. The link on the login screen points to this document (https://agbserver.gameforge.com/enGB-Terms-2014-Hex-Shards-of-Fate.html), which makes no mention of Hex and was written in June 2014. At the same time, a link at the bottom of HexTCG's homepage points to this page (https://www.hextcg.com/terms-and-conditions/), which is a completely different document, with different conditions, and which is quite possibly obsolete, despite having been written in March 2015. Finally, within the Hex folder on my computer, there are 46 files with a name that begins with "TermsAndConditions" in 9 different languages (although the content of all those files is in English), and those files are not consistent with each other. Some are the "new" Gameforge ToS while some are the "old" Hex ToS (even within the same folder).

I know legal stuff takes time and is tedious and hard to do right, but this is no longer beta, and all this should have been cleaned up before going live. Otherwise, how can new players know that the Gameforge ToS negates the Hex ToS, especially since the dates are backwards?


You agree that the company is not required to inform you when they update.

If this is the position that Hex and Gameforge are going to take, then you need to provide us with a clear way to know which are the actual Terms and Conditions that apply at this very moment.

malloc31
01-28-2016, 12:27 PM
Just reiterating that we have always informed our players when changes were made, I don't expect this to change anytime soon even if you have to manually check the box before logging in.

So when you said "Previously, there are no requirements to make users aware of/if when they may change, that is entirely your responsibility." where you just trying cause people to get riled up?

Turboflex
01-28-2016, 12:30 PM
Why was my post deleted?

malloc31
01-28-2016, 12:38 PM
I think you're trying to be a contrarian at this point. Many terms and conditions state the company doesn't have to make the user aware of when they change. However, we and many other companies do try to make you aware of when they change.

no I was trying to state my dealings with ToS.

Btw it seems to not be just shaddy but actually illegal in the US to change the ToS with out notifying customers.

Here is one article about this with websites: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2007/07/court-says-no-to-changing-terms-of-service-without-notification/ (http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2007/07/court-says-no-to-changing-terms-of-service-without-notification/)

Turboflex
01-28-2016, 12:40 PM
^I got my post deleted for pointing that out lol

toaster4k
01-28-2016, 01:10 PM
I basically assume the ToS translate to "we reserve the right to do what we want, if u dont agree stop playing and let all the money u spent go to waste"

So whatever, i just click it. But its really annoying to have an extra click for no good reason.

Phenteo
01-28-2016, 01:16 PM
To be clear, again, as there are some doubts with us in making "stealth changes", it is in the ToS that we will notify users via email.

Section 10, 1
‪Gameforge‬ reserves the right to amend these Terms and Conditions of Use. ‪Gameforge‬ will notify the user by email of the amended conditions at least four weeks before these coming into effect and it shall inform the user of the proposed applicability of these new Terms and Conditions of Use as well as the right of the user to object to their applicability.

@Turboflex, I don't see any deleted posts of yours.

Turboflex
01-28-2016, 01:21 PM
Maybe I just didn't hit the "post" button or something then, I apologize.

malloc31
01-28-2016, 01:33 PM
Thank you Phento.

Though we have had changes in the past and I never received an email ever about changes from gameforge ...


----edit

or have we had no changes since gameforge has been involved?

Phenteo
01-28-2016, 01:39 PM
Thank you Phento.

Though we have had changes in the past and I never received an email ever about changes from gameforge ...


----edit

or have we had no changes since gameforge has been involved?

We haven't changed the ToS, though they're working on adding special rules for HEX in regards to multiple accounts and other HEX related reasons.

MatWith1T
01-28-2016, 01:39 PM
To be clear, again, as there are some doubts with us in making "stealth changes", it is in the ToS that we will notify users via email.

Section 10, 1
‪Gameforge‬ reserves the right to amend these Terms and Conditions of Use. ‪Gameforge‬ will notify the user by email of the amended conditions at least four weeks before these coming into effect and it shall inform the user of the proposed applicability of these new Terms and Conditions of Use as well as the right of the user to object to their applicability.

@Turboflex, I don't see any deleted posts of yours.

Thanks. That was what I was looking for.

Just don't make that the part you stealth change :p

Silvanos
01-28-2016, 03:36 PM
I'm never going to read the ToS, and I hate this checkbox. Please, please, please let me just check it once per patch.

Rendakor
01-28-2016, 05:31 PM
We haven't changed the ToS, though they're working on adding special rules for HEX in regards to multiple accounts and other HEX related reasons.
Oh great, we get to have that discussion again. unicornpoop

Ginaz
01-28-2016, 05:47 PM
I think this has more to do with Game Forge than Hex Ent. It boggles my mind to this day why Hex got into business with GF as they are widely regarded as one of the worst gaming companies in the world. Ask the folks that play TERA in the EU how they feel about GF.

Xenavire
01-28-2016, 06:09 PM
I think this has more to do with Game Forge than Hex Ent. It boggles my mind to this day why Hex got into business with GF as they are widely regarded as one of the worst gaming companies in the world. Ask the folks that play TERA in the EU how they feel about GF.

Gameforge hasn't done anything bad with Hex though (barring some payment hiccups, and we need to remember they have to do the legal dance for all that stuff.)

If anything, I think HexEnt is rubbing off on Gameforge and making both companies stronger as a result.

Yoss
01-28-2016, 08:02 PM
QoL update on this front would be wonderful. Even just the ability to use (starting from the Password field): [TAB]>[TAB]>[SPACEBAR]>[ENTER] would work wonders (if we must mark the box every time for some strange reason).

Kitsune
02-01-2016, 10:21 PM
This checkbox is a constant pain in the ass. Checking it once per ToS update should suffice for any legal rear-covering without wasting everybody's time when we log in.

Voormas
02-01-2016, 11:05 PM
I think it's fine to have people tick it each time, I just wish I could tab down to it and press space to do the ticking - I use a password manager to enter my (long) Hex password and then tab down to the authenticator area, it would be nice if I could automate accepting the T&Cs on my end via having it go password>tab>space>tab :)

Mejis
02-02-2016, 02:09 AM
I think it's fine to have people tick it each time, I just wish I could tab down to it and press space to do the ticking - I use a password manager to enter my (long) Hex password and then tab down to the authenticator area, it would be nice if I could automate accepting the T&Cs on my end via having it go password>tab>space>tab :)

+1 to this. I love not having to use the mouse for logins and this is just currently ruining the experience (hyperbole or course, but it really would be great to be able to tick the box with a keystroke instead of a click!)

Xenavire
02-02-2016, 05:11 AM
I wouldn't be satisfied with just tabbing to it - I want it to work essentially the same as the old one. Agree once per major patch, done and dusted.

Maylick
02-02-2016, 05:19 AM
The Box is gone, you monsters!

Xenavire
02-02-2016, 05:31 AM
And I think the servers are down, with no server status update! Where is our server status feature?

ossuary
02-02-2016, 06:02 AM
FYI this issue was corrected in today's hotfix, it is now just a text notification that you agree by logging in, no need for a checkbox. Thanks CZE! :)

seashell
02-02-2016, 06:04 AM
OH NO! The ToS checkbox was my favorite feature :(

ShloobeR
02-02-2016, 06:05 AM
has anyone else noticed that the the closer the masks get to the master of masks' crotch the more alarmed they become

i think they do not want to be there

seashell
02-02-2016, 06:07 AM
seriously dude? :/

ShloobeR
02-02-2016, 06:26 AM
hey gotta make observations will waiting at this login screen!

Chinane
02-02-2016, 07:25 AM
I can't speak to German laws, but that would work for US laws.

The funny thing is, your current system annoys players AND won't help you at all with german law.

- Checking a box that you read the T&C accompanied by a link to same is insufficient. You have to make sure that the customer really got presented with your T&C. Courts are aware, that those boxes are habitually checked and raised the stakes for companies since.
- By forcing players to habitually check that T&C box you are actually supporting that assumption, i.e. making a case against possible arguments otherwise.
- Even IF you actually recorded T&C access by a customer at one point, due to the habit of checking that box, subsequent changes to the T&C would be invalid unless you can prove that the customer was presented those changes.


So to be on the safe side you would have to do the following:

- Actually present the T&C to your customers ONCE, only allowing them to proceed once they agreed.
- Invalidating the 'agree' button before the whole document was visible. This is usually done by enforcing it was scrolled to the end. Current rulings all support that when it was visible, it can safely be assumed it was read.
- Repeating the whole procedure after the T&C were changed.

Coincidentally, that's how the bigger companies are doing it ;)

IronPheasant
02-02-2016, 07:48 AM
That checkbox consumed hours of my life every day since the game crashes 40% of the time you do a thing in campaign.

Thank god it's gone.

Svenn
02-02-2016, 07:50 AM
That checkbox consumed hours of my life every day since the game crashes 40% of the time you do a thing in campaign.

Thank god it's gone.

Huh, I haven't crashed once. You tried a different PC?

Zantetsuken
02-02-2016, 09:57 AM
That checkbox consumed hours of my life every day since the game crashes 40% of the time you do a thing in campaign.

Thank god it's gone.

This game never crashes. If you mean locks up that was due to lag and if you left it alone it just fixed itself eventually. Except if you attacked the Tunneled Wormoid Queen, she's unable to be attacked so attacking her freezes the game.

DocX
02-02-2016, 10:38 AM
FYI this issue was corrected in today's hotfix, it is now just a text notification that you agree by logging in, no need for a checkbox. Thanks CZE! :)

Indeed, many thanks! Big QOL improvement on this (especially with the lockups requiring restart and relog)

Mejis
02-02-2016, 01:21 PM
Yay! Massive improvement guys, thanks so much!

Saeijou
02-02-2016, 01:54 PM
Yay! Massive improvement guys, thanks so much!

+1 :)

Kurposkano
02-02-2016, 03:30 PM
This game never crashes. If you mean locks up that was due to lag and if you left it alone it just fixed itself eventually. Except if you attacked the Tunneled Wormoid Queen, she's unable to be attacked so attacking her freezes the game.

This game uses to crash all the time before the PvE update. Watch various streams or have a computer that it happens on for some reason. There was a time I stopped playing tournaments because it crashed so often.

silverlocke
02-02-2016, 05:26 PM
Woohoo the checkbox is gone!