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wolzarg
01-30-2016, 01:43 AM
What are you thinking with this one vennen are already hands down the weakest race in pve with their wonky consistency and their poor speed and you go and remove one of their vital cards?

Taqo
01-30-2016, 01:48 AM
Really interested in hearing why this card was banned, like wolzarg says this is a massive nerf for vennen in pve

Gorgol
01-30-2016, 02:11 AM
RIP Vennen

Maylick
01-30-2016, 02:13 AM
You all do realize they will fix infinitte loop combo and unban it back in few days, right?)

Shinjica
01-30-2016, 02:14 AM
there is a link with all the banned cards?

wolzarg
01-30-2016, 02:17 AM
You all do realize they will fix infinitte loop combo and unban it back in few days, right?)
Define the infinite loop combo

Unspecified
01-30-2016, 02:26 AM
I know exactly why it was banned. Hatchery Priest with gloves, Hatchery Cultivator, Vilefang Eremite with boots, Psychic Torment, and then anything to start the chain.

It literally produces an INFINITE loop. Obviously the match ends because the opponent dies eventually but how much do you want to bet that was a source of lag because the CPU was calculating:

1) Egg comes out
2) Make 2 spiders (Priest gloves)
3) Ping for 1 per spider (eremite)
4) Heal for 1 per spider (eremite)
5) Put 1 egg in deck per heal (eremite boots)
6) Put 1 extra egg per egg put in deck (cultivator)
7) Mill 1 card per damage dealt (Psychic Torment)
8) Replace egg with new card (the original egg has to be replaced off the top)

For every egg leaving the deck it had to ping 2 health, heal 2 health, create 2 spiders, create 4 eggs, and mill 3 cards off the top. The opponents deck size GREW doing this. It's not hard to imagine this was causing server problems.

On a related note, if you think vennen are 'hands down the weakest race in pve' then the others must be stupidly OP. I have beat the campaign with Vennen cleric, mage, and warrior with no issue at all. The only thing I haven't done is AoM level 6 but then I haven't tried either.

Taking away Psychic Torment is mildly annoying and slightly effects the power of the decks I run but not that much. All you really need is:

- 3x Vilefang Eremite (with boots)
- 3x Hatchery Priest (with gloves)
- 2x Hatchery Cultivator
- 3x Zilth (if you have 3, run as many as you have)
- 3x Nazhk Lookout (if you have 3, run as many as you have)
- 3x Giant Mosquitoes (with helm for lethal)
- 3x Lunacy (Trinket nice but optional)
- 2x Chaotic Murmurs
- 2x Paladin of the Necropolis
- 2x Corrupt Harvester

Optional Cards in a rough order (most are expensive and you don't NEED any of these):

- 3x Gemsoul Feeder (shift Lifedrain to Eremites for lulz)
- 3x Exarch of the Egg
- 2x Phenteo (obviously expensive and honestly unnecessary but really nice)
- 3x Vampire Princess
- 2x Vampire King
- 2x Bastardspawn of Bokrug
- 3x Leaching Burrower (if you can find Uruunaz in the arena and win)

Encounter specific cards like Crackling Rot, Rotting Away, Kill, Sorrow, etc... are also nice to have but they aren't core for most encounters. A solid Vennen deck is actually really cheap but you aren't running cleric you are seriously handicapping yourself as Vennen (except against Killipede, -1 attack spell wrecks his day).

Edit: Obviously I use Psychic Torment if I can but since there's 2 in the deck I don't even see them in 50%+ of games so considering it to be crucial would be absurd.

wolzarg
01-30-2016, 02:28 AM
They are hands down the weakest race of any and there is no reason except that you like it to actually run vennen as a dedicated theme it is flat out bad without psychic torment.

You need to replay the entire zone or have silly luck to get those cards you suggest and i still would like to see you replay the campaign without torment.

Unspecified
01-30-2016, 02:32 AM
They are hands down the weakest race of any and there is no reason except that you like it to actually run vennen as a dedicated theme it is flat out bad without psychic torment.

You can believe that if you want I outlined above the deck I've used to clear every single bit of PvE content 3 times on level without losing a single life in dungeons except very rarely to really bad draws.

The only fights I have to retry are Wormoid Queen, Killipede 1 and 2, and Piranhas but there is no 100% consistent decks against those fights I'm aware of since there's always luck of the draw.

NyXDaE
01-30-2016, 02:45 AM
- 3x Zilth (if you have 3, run as many as you have)


How did you get more than one Zilth?

Maylick
01-30-2016, 02:47 AM
How did you get more than one Zilth?

Create Vennen and do tutorial dungeon.

Unspecified
01-30-2016, 02:50 AM
How did you get more than one Zilth?

As mentioned above, just run a new Vennen character through. I suggest going all the way to lowering the second bridge for the extra Lookout and bonus packs. It's really quick.

szimek
01-30-2016, 03:24 AM
they could always change the equipment for Vilefang Eremite. Problem with loop solved and Torment doesn't need to be banned. bummer (i really liked that card) and a big hit for my vennen deck :/

wolzarg
01-30-2016, 03:28 AM
they could always change the equipment for Vilefang Eremite. Problem with loop solved and Torment doesn't need to be banned. bummer (i really liked that card) and a big hit for my vennen deck :/
Chark said its comming back once The infinity loop is fixed.

szimek
01-30-2016, 03:33 AM
Chark said its comming back once The infinity loop is fixed.

That's great :] for that time let's try ... Zombie plague as a constant placeholder for the Torment. Zombie-spider deck... hmmm... :>

Maylick
01-30-2016, 03:34 AM
That's great :] for that time let's try ... Zombie plague as a constant placeholder for the Torment. Zombie-spider deck... hmmm... :>

That doesn't do any good actually. You will just lower chances forZombie Plague to make zombies while spamming eggs into enemy deck.

szimek
01-30-2016, 03:39 AM
That doesn't do any good actually. You will just lower chances forZombie Plague to make zombies while spamming eggs into enemy deck.

Yeah. wasn't sure how zombie plague will reacts with eggs, but yeah, if it's not skipping them, than it's not good.

Goliath764
01-30-2016, 04:26 AM
They are hands down the weakest race of any and there is no reason except that you like it to actually run vennen as a dedicated theme it is flat out bad without psychic torment.

You need to replay the entire zone or have silly luck to get those cards you suggest and i still would like to see you replay the campaign without torment.

I am playing a Vennen Mage with Cory Pepsi rules. My deck is far from the optimized version that Unspecified posted, have no Psychic Torment and I can already consistently kill my opponent outright with a single combo when given the chance to setup. I can easily mill my opponent's whole deck(or kill him with Vilefang) in 1 go with Archanomancer + Twisted Fate + Vilefang Eremite + Hatchery Priest. I fail to see why Psychic Torment is absolutely when there are so many alternatives that can do the same thing albeit less cost-effective. And I don't necessarily need the 4 cards either, Zilch and Nazhk Lookout are very strong too.

Timlagor
01-30-2016, 04:34 AM
I haven't seen the boots so presumably those are the new ingredient.

A lot of Vennen hassle could be saved if the ability triggers didn't happen until the end of everything else -particularly for webguard and arachnomancer. not sure it would work for Eremite since you have to keep going back to it with Torment but you could at least get to the bottome of what it was doing before starting another loop (boots are a problem with that idea too since the interrupt lets you put an egg back in where you would be about to mill it already -even without torment).

So yeah.. expect Boots to get nerfed. I'm surprised they didn't ban the boots instead of the PVP card.

Maylick
01-30-2016, 04:57 AM
So yeah.. expect Boots to get nerfed. I'm surprised they didn't ban the boots instead of the PVP card.

I'm surprised why people are ignoring the fact, that card is banned temporarily. They will fix whatever may cause troubles on server part and return it. Also:


This is a great time to remind everyone that while PVP cards will not change once released, anything PVE— cards, equipment, and encounters— are subject to change. This includes cards that can be owned by players. It comes down to the fact that there are virtually infinite combinations available to players in our game when taking cards and equipment into consideration. We certainly test and tune PVE, but it’s not possible in the way that we balance tournament PVP.

And that’s part of the appeal for PVE—it’s this crazy place where so much more is possible because of many reasons, one of which is that the opponent’s enjoyment of the game doesn’t have to be taken into consideration. The computer doesn’t care if you have the board locked up for 30 turns in a row. We can put a much wider range of effects into PVE.

We don’t change cards just because they’re powerful—but that is one of the vectors by which we evaluate if something’s better off being changed. And we certainly don’t take pleasure in changing cards. In some cases, we’ll have to change PVE cards in order to maintain the integrity of the game and the PVE experience. So, buyer beware!

If there is such an issue as infinite loop then they have to prevent whatever causing it now AND in the future. It need systematic rework anyway, not ban/nerfs instead. Just let HXE do their job, they proved so many times that they care about player experience. I'm sure every second that Psychic Torment is banned it's banned for a very good reason. You will see it back soon, just like Scheme came back.

Seems also that banning card is way easier and faster than ban equipment.

nicosharp
01-30-2016, 09:21 AM
Interesting. I'm wondering how they plan to fix this? The combo is pretty neat, but I guess a turn 3-4 combo like that is a bit too menacing to the PvE experience. The issue should not be the lag it creates, or the fact that it wins the game.

NyXDaE
01-30-2016, 10:54 AM
Create Vennen and do tutorial dungeon.

Really? When I did this, I did not get a second Zilth - is it random if you get one or not? It made me think you can only get one per account. Maybe it was bugged?

Artifaction
01-30-2016, 11:10 AM
The problem is it doesn't even fix the combo, psychic torment is one way to do it and even pre-equip on Eremite the Touch of Xanth or w/e it's called gave you the same interaction. It's a OTK combo like replicator war machinist not a reason to ban a card. I've been using this interaction for most of the month even pre pve. While it's nice I can cut the Touch from my arena deck it just means the alternate method to have the combo go of requires clicking Accept every time you deal 1 point of damage. The psychic torment method was great because you just let it resolve rather than having a player interact at each stage - the exact opposite of what they need for multiplayer to be fun. I even run Contract Killing now to kill my Arachnomancers once I've triggered enough to kill them so I don't have to click Decline every time a spider comes into play.

tldr; the infinite combo is still in the game but it's more annoying to use and if you're going to ban an infinite combo ban all the ways to do it or don't and if you ban one ban the annoying one x.x

Unspecified
01-30-2016, 02:18 PM
Interesting. I'm wondering how they plan to fix this? The combo is pretty neat, but I guess a turn 3-4 combo like that is a bit too menacing to the PvE experience. The issue should not be the lag it creates, or the fact that it wins the game.

I could be totally wrong but I get the impression what they're trying to fix isn't so much the part of the combo that effects gameplay but the part of the combo that forces a server to enter into an infinite loop of calculations and object creation. If the problem isn't what we see but the fact that say after the opponent dies the CPU is still running some absurd calculation of egg/spider creation that causes lag then we may not notice anything except a performance increase.

Really short of completely changing Psychic Torment (or another key piece like gloves, boots, or the Eremite itself) there's no way to prevent the infinite loop from occurring in game. As long as damage mills and healing makes spiders when an egg comes out an egg or 2+ go in.

wolzarg
01-30-2016, 04:43 PM
I can confirm it did loop weirdly once my opponents deck incread by 8 cards before ticking down the last point of damage and i didn't even have all the pieces that can be problematic.

velk
01-30-2016, 04:47 PM
Really? When I did this, I did not get a second Zilth - is it random if you get one or not? It made me think you can only get one per account. Maybe it was bugged?

It's not in the starter dungeon, the quest reward you get when you go back to town is a starter pack, that pack will always have the tutorial assistant in it.

NyXDaE
01-30-2016, 05:09 PM
It's not in the starter dungeon, the quest reward you get when you go back to town is a starter pack, that pack will always have the tutorial assistant in it.

Oh great, thanks!!!

Chris_Woods
01-30-2016, 06:55 PM
Hey all,

As far as changing the equipment or not I can't speak to. On the code side we've handled the loop. While your client wins the game and everything progresses normally on your side, the server still tries to resolve all the effects before it cleans up the game.

Since that loop isn't going to end, what happens is the server keeps going until it runs out of memory and crashes, creating a pretty terrible experience for basically everyone.

This is bonus bad, since it is a VIP weekend, so I ask the card be banned until we can get a patch that has the game clean up as soon as a victory is detected, regardless of if there are other triggers pending processing.

Anyhow, like I said. Maybe the card/equipment/somethngelse changes -- I dunno about that. But the ban will be lifted as soon as we can patch out the resource leak on the server. We didn't really catch this until yesterday (even running at full speed, it takes a while before it really starts hurting the server) so we have to struggle through the weekend.

Super sorry, but I swear we didn't ban your card because it was too powerful or we just hate Vennen. (We totally do hate Vennen, but.. I mean... they're orc spiders. What's to love here?) It was strictly to try to keep things as smooth as possible for VIPs. We will give it back ASAP.

Chris Woods

Xenavire
01-30-2016, 07:03 PM
Good guy Chris Woods with the explanation and saving VIP's from a bad time. Much love Chris, and thanks for all the work on the AI, it is fantastic.

Xexist
01-30-2016, 10:52 PM
Hey all,

As far as changing the equipment or not I can't speak to. On the code side we've handled the loop. While your client wins the game and everything progresses normally on your side, the server still tries to resolve all the effects before it cleans up the game.

Since that loop isn't going to end, what happens is the server keeps going until it runs out of memory and crashes, creating a pretty terrible experience for basically everyone.

This is bonus bad, since it is a VIP weekend, so I ask the card be banned until we can get a patch that has the game clean up as soon as a victory is detected, regardless of if there are other triggers pending processing.

Anyhow, like I said. Maybe the card/equipment/somethngelse changes -- I dunno about that. But the ban will be lifted as soon as we can patch out the resource leak on the server. We didn't really catch this until yesterday (even running at full speed, it takes a while before it really starts hurting the server) so we have to struggle through the weekend.

Super sorry, but I swear we didn't ban your card because it was too powerful or we just hate Vennen. (We totally do hate Vennen, but.. I mean... they're orc spiders. What's to love here?) It was strictly to try to keep things as smooth as possible for VIPs. We will give it back ASAP.

Chris Woods

Love you buddy <3

seashell
01-31-2016, 12:10 AM
I find the fact that a single player can cause everyone's game to crash kind of cool. I thought hacking was only for flash games :P.

Venris
01-31-2016, 06:23 PM
Anyone else not surprised to find a card most used by the Vennen creating bugs?

wolzarg
02-01-2016, 04:24 AM
Hey all,

As far as changing the equipment or not I can't speak to. On the code side we've handled the loop. While your client wins the game and everything progresses normally on your side, the server still tries to resolve all the effects before it cleans up the game.

Since that loop isn't going to end, what happens is the server keeps going until it runs out of memory and crashes, creating a pretty terrible experience for basically everyone.

This is bonus bad, since it is a VIP weekend, so I ask the card be banned until we can get a patch that has the game clean up as soon as a victory is detected, regardless of if there are other triggers pending processing.

Anyhow, like I said. Maybe the card/equipment/somethngelse changes -- I dunno about that. But the ban will be lifted as soon as we can patch out the resource leak on the server. We didn't really catch this until yesterday (even running at full speed, it takes a while before it really starts hurting the server) so we have to struggle through the weekend.

Super sorry, but I swear we didn't ban your card because it was too powerful or we just hate Vennen. (We totally do hate Vennen, but.. I mean... they're orc spiders. What's to love here?) It was strictly to try to keep things as smooth as possible for VIPs. We will give it back ASAP.

Chris Woods
Thanks as always chris that is all i wanted to know and more 6 spider thumbs up :cool: