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View Full Version : Revisit Campaign Tutorial Difficulty?



DanTheMeek
01-30-2016, 07:47 PM
So... wow, I've held off on making this post for a bit just because its so incredibly embarrassing to admit, but I'm stuck in the shin'hare tutorial (as a Shin'hare Cleric), I've died several times now (I want to say 5) and while there is no game over, the feelings of frustration have become very real. This is coming from some one whose perfected frost arena countless times with probably 10 different variants and shard combinations of shin'hare decks I concocted, so while I may not be the greatest player ever or anything, I'd like to believe I'm not making a lot (or any IMO) misplays, it just seems like the difficulty for a Shin'hare Cleric's initial tutorial is balanced on the "Very Hard" side of normal such that you really need to get lucky draws AND play perfect to win.

Now I'm not inherently against stiff difficulty in games, though I'm less of a fan of games where luck can make a game completely unwinnable before you even take your first action and you don't realize it until you've invested 15 minutes of your life into the unwinnable match, but if you're going to have such a high difficulty (which I think you SHOULD if I'm being honest, unwinnable games be darned), that difficulty should not be during the initial tutorial but during end game content. Early game, and the tutorial in particular, is the time when new players are still learning the ropes and likely to make a lot of misplays so if anything you want the early game tutorials to be overly lenient, balanced on the "easy" to even "very easy" side of normal to allow new players to learn through doing and still feel they are making progress even if they make some critical mistakes that are making the matches tighter then they probably should be.

Now its possible I've just been super unlucky thus far, but I can't help but wonder, if some one as experienced with Hex and Shin'hare as myself is struggling this badly, how many new players are going to hit this same wall, only maybe twice as hard do to misplays, feel this same frustration or worse do to being even less competitive, and possibly just walk away from the game Heck, since they don't have monetary investment in the game like I do, maybe they don't keep at it through as many losses as I have.

Haven't played the other races, only other character I have is a shin'hare warrior with whom tutorial was also quite tough, probably more so then it should be for a tutorial, but atleast I was able to sneak a number of victories with lucky draws and a vastly superior class power. So maybe its just shin'hare cleric's tutorial (or the race/class itself) that's the problem, but does anyone else feel like things don't feel quite right balance wise in PvE Campaign's tutorial?

FluffyOne
01-30-2016, 08:08 PM
Shin'hare decks are simply stacked against you from the get go and personally, I'm still not aware if it's an intentional decission or if it's an oversight. The fact that one couldn't include a Bucktooth Commander instead of the Rune Elite makes me think it's mostly the former instead of the latter. But over all you're not wrong, the Rabbits need a reworking as far as their starting deck is considered, as having to rely on the Raptors, Zombie Vulture [And I'd like to note there's a crapton of flying coyotes in the mid-game] or the Witch is plain bloody silly. Only reason its semi-doable with warrior is simply due to the power being your saving grace, as you have plenty of face-trading potential with 27 HP or so.

I heard the Vennen are almost as bad as the Shin'hare when it comes to this. I wholly support the balancing idea that not all races are made for all classes, but when the stereotypical Shin'hare Warrior has major issues, there's a problem

Zyion
02-01-2016, 03:44 PM
I've noticed that most of the starting decks for the campaign are pretty hard to use. It took me two tries with the Shin'hare mage to complete the dungeon, and I only won because the final boss only had one shard and never got another for 5 turns. The Human mage isn't much better, it took me retrying the starting dungeon 3 times before I got lucky enough to have the AI shard screw itself.

I really don't think the problem is with the decks themselves, but more with the encounters. You don't want to overwhelm starting players with complicated decks at the very beginning. But the enemies you fight in the beginning have decks so overwhelmingly better then yours that your only chance in winning is to be super lucky.

Yoss
02-01-2016, 03:52 PM
I guess it just depends which race/class you pick? My coyotle cleric breezed through no problem. Mages, from my limited understanding are supposed to suck at the start?

Zyion
02-02-2016, 03:16 PM
I guess it just depends which race/class you pick? My coyotle cleric breezed through no problem. Mages, from my limited understanding are supposed to suck at the start?
Not to the point where the only way you can complete the tutorial dungeon is by blind luck. I can understand outside of the tutorial dungeon, but not at the very beginning where a new player's perspective of the game can be skewed by a bad beginning experience.

Salverus
02-02-2016, 03:45 PM
i had the same problem as elf cleric.
eventually won because I put swift strike and 2 rage on a single troop early on and the AI didn't know how to block.
should definitely be able to edit the deck during tutorial or make a better starting deck, because current ones are useless. Best troop in entire deck is 4/4 with no abilities lol

Chinane
02-03-2016, 04:06 AM
Best troop in entire deck is 4/4 with no abilities lol

That would be sufficient for most tutorials, as it would stop opponents from attacking.

The problem with the elf is, that you're playing vs. orcs and the rage power can really cause problems, if you're unlucky enough to not get enough cheap trops out to trade early.


Regarding the shin'hare:
In my experience so far, they are the worst deck to play themed during not just the tutorial but the early (not been past killipede due to no deck safe option) campaign, as essential cards, most notably commander, are missing. That card can't even be bought from the AH as of last night, at least not for reasonable amounts of gold. So far i won 2 matches using a shin'hare strategy via Ito's will, although even then one of them was mostly with maggots from sorrow deaths. All other matches are almost exclusive won through the inclusion of Adaptron, which I put into the deck to err on the safe side.

Zyion
02-04-2016, 05:46 PM
All other matches are almost exclusive won through the inclusion of Adaptron, which I put into the deck to err on the safe side.
Yeah, it's kinda sad that the majority of the tough encounters in the first campaign can be won by just having an Adaptatron in your starting hand. It's basically the best way to defeat the really cheesy aggro decks you come across.

OzymandiasDark
02-04-2016, 08:59 PM
I'm playing a Vennen Mage - and yes, the campaign tutorial wasn't that easy, but luck and a lot of previous TCG experience got me through it - though I doubt a TCG newbie would enjoy that experience.
For the further campaign, I luckily own a relatively complete basic set of cards, which enabled me to power up my deck immensely. That way I've been able to beat most of the campaigns mandatory and optional tasks.
By now, all I still need to do are
- the bigger wormoids
- the wormoid queen (oh god, that will be hard)
- the Army of Myth on Levels 4-6 (is it possible at all, got quickly defeated on Level 4 about 10 times already, since Vennen simply have no way to power up quickly or ramp up ressources without going for too many shard colors, which would render most games a clear loss due to the really random, and therefore often creating in the real world impossible shuffled decks - like with a 10B, 10S, 4Zin, 36other deck drawing all shards of one color before getting one of the other or a Zin/getting no more than 1-2 shards within the first 10 turns/drawing 15 shards within the first 10 turns -, shuffling engine (which limits deck creation to the main point of shard fixing only, as everything else in comparison is of neglectable importance).)
- the Piranhas
- and the final fight against Wiktor (I managed to do all Devonshire fights perfectly, also getting the bonus card and doing all fights, most of the time, so getting there with 3 lives), who defeated me already about 20 times - currently doing the final grind to level 9 and will then try to play around with the abilities a little, but if I get defeated another 20 times then, I'll probably abandon the character.

All other fights were managable, though I needed about 10 retries for the sea hag and Goliath defeats me 9 out of 10 times.

My problem is that I simply run out of ideas what I could do to my deck to be able to win without having to try for several 100 times till the opponent gets a total shardscrew to win. And I'm already running a deck with some very powerful combinations like Phenteo, Zilth, Broodguard combined with N. Webguard, N. Lookout, Lunacy and the Bastardspawn of Borkrug to get the eggs to hatch (with 2 Bastardspawns in play it's fairly easy to mill out the opponent) and Arachnomancer, Xartaxis & Zeedu as drawing engines as well as Saarthu with full equipment (which enables you to grap 2 of the opponent cards in one turn using the Mage ability Telekinesis) and 2 Adaptatrons for all-purpose use, but all of this is simply showing effect to slow on opponents that are easily able to kill you on turn 4 or 5, especially when you don't have the starting advantage or only miss 1 shard drop.

I still like to believe they tested any combination of Race/Class to be able to beat the campaign, but as of now I begin to believe they used some trick like automatic shard increasement and everytime-start during the testing (maybe only to make it quicker and easier), which a player can't use - feel free to send me a PM if you should have any idea of how to beat these mentioned fights as a Vennen Mage.

And Zylon, even 2 Adaptatrons in starting hand don't help much, since most tough opponents have troops with Lethal or other ways of easy removal - despite the fact that you are usually dead with just 16 (already powered up by a talent, usually it would only be 14) hitpoints before having only activated even half of his traits since there are often inevitable damage effects applied each round and any Lifedrain troop will quickly be killed since you need to block to prevent some even worse effect being applied on you - like getting burning 5 without a chance to remove it. OR the nasty Rotmutt doing 5 damage each turn (or having a 5/5 oppo right away in turn 3), since opponents obviously have no limits on how many copies of a card can be in their deck.

I somehow miss getting more hitpoints with leveling up, which would improve matters very much, since it would buy you more time to get something accomplished.

Zyion
02-04-2016, 09:50 PM
And Zylon, even 2 Adaptatrons in starting hand don't help much, since most tough opponents have troops with Lethal or other ways of easy removal - despite the fact that you are usually dead with just 16 (already powered up by a talent, usually it would only be 14) hitpoints before having only activated even half of his traits since there are often inevitable damage effects applied each round and any Lifedrain troop will quickly be killed since you need to block to prevent some even worse effect being applied on you - like getting burning 5 without a chance to remove it. OR the nasty Rotmutt doing 5 damage each turn (or having a 5/5 oppo right away in turn 3), since opponents obviously have no limits on how many copies of a card can be in their deck.
Adaptatron trivializes most of the wormoid fights if you get one your starting hand because the wormoids have their tunneling go down whenever you play anything. Having an Adaptatron and 5 resources can easily take out the wormoids before the first troops pop up from underground because on field card abilities aren't considered summoning troops, playing resources, or playing actions.

Adaptatron is immensely useful against aggro decks because you can have a +3/+3 Swiftstrike, Lifedrain troop on your third turn. Which helps fend off unwanted attacks and gives you a way to regain lost health. I've beaten Piranhas easily with the Adaptatron simply because the Lifedrain slowed down the rate that my health went down. And picking up Steadfast on your forth turn means that you can both attack and defend with Adaptatron and get the most out of the Lifedrain.

Most troops with Lethal don't have Swiftstrike, meaning that they never actually get to hit an Adaptatron with Swiftstrike before they die. And if you are worried about The Killipede, the AI usually refuses to attack once you get a troop with Swiftstrike and a minimum of 5 attack.

If you are worried about an enemy burning your Adaptatron, then increase the Adaptatron's health before increasing its attack or applying Lifedrain. The AI tends to prioritize troops with the highest attack when it comes to removal cards.

Oh, and don't forget that Adaptatron's abilities can be used anytime. Meaning that it is essentially a troop with 5 built in interrupt abilities. Which can be used to trick AI into foolishly blocking an unwinnable attack.

Honestly, until they update the AI to better prioritize cards like Adaptatron, it is quite possibly the most useful PVE card in the game.

Chinane
02-05-2016, 05:06 AM
Honestly, until they update the AI to better prioritize cards like Adaptatron, it is quite possibly the most useful PVE card in the game.

I completely agree, it would probably help, if its powers were alle BASIC.

Although there's really a ton of removals out there. The other day I lost a match because i decided to attack with it for an instant kill (Opponent has just 1 card, what's the likelyhood it's repel? Turns out to be 100% ;)) instead of just waiting 2-3 turns for a safe kill with spiders.

Really doesn't like inflict doubt, too ;).

Koz
02-05-2016, 08:45 AM
I agree that the starter decks are really bad. Like, frustratingly bad. While I haven't had trouble beating the tutorial with any of the starter decks, it wasn't really a fun experience. They really need to look at the cost curves of these decks and drop them down a bit. There's just too many 4-5 cost cards in many of them which can lead to long games or frustrating experiences of waiting for shards.

Xenavire
02-05-2016, 09:33 AM
I believe that it is absolutely possible with every race/class combo (I should know, I have beaten almost every race/class combo that currently exists, being only short by Necrotic Mage and Necrotic Warrior - beaten it with everything else and just about to start on each of them.)

However, that does not mean the decks are well built. Too many actions that are either buffs or draw and far, far too few removals, and a curve that ranges far too high (some of the decks are incredibly top heavy with no ramp or cost reduction) and moderately low value troops at the low cost end.

I honestly would suggest throwing some dual shards in to help mitigate issues, get some actual removal in there, and curve it out a lot better.

Yoss
02-05-2016, 10:56 AM
Adaptatron is immensely useful against aggro decks because you can have a +3/+3 Swiftstrike, Lifedrain troop on your third turn.

How do you have lifedrain?

Salverus
02-05-2016, 11:26 AM
his equip gives you one-shot lifedrain to a troop.

OzymandiasDark
02-05-2016, 12:47 PM
Wow, Zyion, thx for providing this extended analysis of the Adaptatron card, you pointed out quite some points I didn't consider with this. Seems I better put another one into my deck, as especially the quickly building Aggro decks are problematic for my campaign character.
Considering all you said, that could be the key to get me through all those nasty last tasks still needed to a complete solution of my campaign. :D

OzymandiasDark
02-05-2016, 12:50 PM
And Yoss, the best about Adaptatrons equipment-given Lifedrain ability is: It costs exactly 0 ressources to use it. :D

Yoss
02-05-2016, 02:06 PM
his equip gives you one-shot lifedrain to a troop.

I see. I haven't found that equip yet. I did find the helmet though, which is quite awesome.