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sukebe
02-01-2016, 05:17 PM
Hello :-)

I just did my first dungeon run for the ardor day event and got only 1 event item when I completed it. So far I have always received 2 event items due to my dungeon delver bonus.

I didn't post this in the bug report forum because I am not yet sure if this is a bug or if this is the new intended functionality. If this is the new functionality I am somewhat dissapointed as one of the biggest advantages of this $250 tier was the double convocation event drops and it seems likely that would go away if we no longer get double drops from these smaller events.

If I could get a nobles response on this I would be very grateful as I would very much like official word on this.

Thanks in advance :-)

Lafoote
02-01-2016, 05:58 PM
I think it's working as intended. If I'm not mistaken, the loot is not from the boss itself technically, but for completing the dungeon. More like a bonus.

dogmod
02-01-2016, 05:59 PM
I will put in a vote for this being lame.

Harsgalt
02-01-2016, 06:26 PM
As far as I'm aware you can't complete a dungeon without defeating a boss? Therefore, the only people affected by this distinction are those with the dungeon crawler perks.

If this was intended, I wonder if this was in response to everyone whinging about the DC perks from the convocation event?

+1 lameness

magic_gazz
02-01-2016, 06:52 PM
-1 Lameness

You guys got plenty of bonuses.

Amsterdam
02-01-2016, 07:10 PM
As far as I'm aware you can't complete a dungeon without defeating a boss? Therefore, the only people affected by this distinction are those with the dungeon crawler perks.

If this was intended, I wonder if this was in response to everyone whinging about the DC perks from the convocation event?

+1 lameness

Would have to agree. If you don't want to pay double loot don't put it in a dungeon. If it is working as intended they would just be hiding behind a technicality to avoid doing as promised and that would be very lame, not like Hex Ent at all.

One way of avoiding the bonus would be to give special event loot to people as they gained a level. Each level you get past lvl 2 you get a piece of loot. I would still be unhappy with this as the reason I buy the DK is because I have limited time and wanted to max my PVE gear gain to stay competitive with those who have the time to run dungeons over and over again.

Harsgalt
02-01-2016, 07:15 PM
If as intended, it's a deliberate move involving language to not fulfil kickstarter rewards.

Of the 3 tiers fulfiled, pro-player, dungeon crawler and Collector to date, DC has the most 'items' yes, but also has the least amount of monetary value.

hex_colin
02-01-2016, 07:17 PM
If as intended, it's a deliberate move involving language to not fulfil kickstarter rewards.

Of the 3 tiers fulfiled, pro-player, dungeon crawler and Collector to date, DC has the most 'items' yes, but also has the least amount of monetary value.

There was no requirement or expectation that they would be of equal value. In fact, they sold out in order of their perceived value. And, notably, Cory said more than once that he expected Collector to be the most valuable in the long run. So few people believed him...

wolzarg
02-01-2016, 07:29 PM
Anyone who had this bonus for the convocation congratulations that was never promised. It may or may not be there next time, this seasonal event is not part of the DC package.

Svenn
02-01-2016, 07:49 PM
Anyone who had this bonus for the convocation congratulations that was never promised. It may or may not be there next time, this seasonal event is not part of the DC package.

As someone with the DC bonus, I have no problems with this. :)

Harsgalt
02-01-2016, 07:53 PM
Yeah Colin, that's absolutely fine that tiers are unbalanced, no problems with that. My issue is the the amount of outrage about how much 'stuff' DC guys get, when in reality the 'stuff' is quite worthless compared to other tiers. That is to say, the most outrage is directed at the least valuable tier.

You're right in that seasonal events are not explicitly part of the DC package (no arguments there), however, tying awards to "Boss Encounters" automatically makes it part of the DC package. Saying, "Completing a dungeon" does legitimately remove it from the DC package (again, no arguments). However, having no other way to complete a dungeon besides from defeating a boss, is what makes it a cop out and feel like we are being cheated out of promised rewards.

Cory also said he would always look after the kickstarter backers. Using purely language to bypass or opt-out of the DC tier rewards somewhat betrays that. It also opens the door to other ways to opt-out of delivering kickstarter rewards.

Harsgalt
02-01-2016, 07:57 PM
Giving rewards for 'completing' a dungeon would make more sense if a dungeon had multiple bosses that did not trigger the dungeon to be over, or if there were ways to complete a dungeon without defeating a boss.

sukebe
02-01-2016, 08:04 PM
As someone with the DC bonus, I have no problems with this. :)

I am actually ok with it as well. While I am a bit disappointed at the lost value I was never really sure if that value was meant to be there in the first place and not just a side effect of only being able to give it out through arena bosses.

I just wanted to check to make sure it was intended or not :-)

off topic p.s. : I always figured that collector would be at least equal to pro tier in value and if I had not be able to cobble together the money for grand king I would have gone with collector :-)

Eetabee
02-01-2016, 08:10 PM
<DC backer

I think it's working as intended. Its a reward for completion, not an addition to the loot table.

Amsterdam
02-01-2016, 08:39 PM
Yeah Colin, that's absolutely fine that tiers are unbalanced, no problems with that. My issue is the the amount of outrage about how much 'stuff' DC guys get, when in reality the 'stuff' is quite worthless compared to other tiers. That is to say, the most outrage is directed at the least valuable tier.

You're right in that seasonal events are not explicitly part of the DC package (no arguments there), however, tying awards to "Boss Encounters" automatically makes it part of the DC package. Saying, "Completing a dungeon" does legitimately remove it from the DC package (again, no arguments). However, having no other way to complete a dungeon besides from defeating a boss, is what makes it a cop out and feel like we are being cheated out of promised rewards.

Cory also said he would always look after the kickstarter backers. Using purely language to bypass or opt-out of the DC tier rewards somewhat betrays that. It also opens the door to other ways to opt-out of delivering kickstarter rewards.

Great post. I suspect the outrage is somehow due to the DC tier having the biggest impact on non-paying customers. Pro Player reward lowers value of PVP cards & packs, but DC lowers value of PVE and PVE special event cards. Cards that everyone is able to get for free by simply playing the game. DC players have to put in 50% of effort to get same number of PVE cards, and that is exactly why I bought DC.

dogmod
02-01-2016, 09:05 PM
There has been considerable effort put into diluting the effect of the DC perk. Spreading rewards throughout the dungeon in terms of XP and gold. Now triggering rewards on "completing a dungeon" even though the only way to do that is to beat a boss.

I get that they are trying to level they playing field for non kickstarters and make it feel more equal but the fact is they are antagonizing a core fan base. Same with every time they make a decisions to make F2P more viable they antagonize the paying market.

I guess to make an omelet you have to crack a few eggs...

Yoss
02-01-2016, 09:15 PM
I am a DC backer and I am fine with this, especially if it signals that RL will end up being modified to remove the P2W aspect, when it's finally in the game. As for relative value of DC vs Collector, I care not. I wanted DC, so I bought DC. If I'd wanted Collector, it was available to buy. In hindsight, we'd all have probably wanted to by several hundred or thousand dollars more from the KS, but life doesn't work that way.

Xexist
02-01-2016, 09:24 PM
I am a DC backer and I am fine with this, especially if it signals that RL will end up being modified to remove the P2W aspect, when it's finally in the game. As for relative value of DC vs Collector, I care not. I wanted DC, so I bought DC. If I'd wanted Collector, it was available to buy. In hindsight, we'd all have probably wanted to by several hundred or thousand dollars more from the KS, but life doesn't work that way.

I am okay with this too.. BUT.. I want this to be the exception, not the rule. Special events etc, I dont mind DC bonus not applying. I dont want to see it become common place though to stick i to the DC tier through 'wording' just because they can

Xenavire
02-01-2016, 10:16 PM
I have a question: does Crayburn Castle have DC boosts at all? Clearly you can't get double the packs (those were quest related) but is the gold boosted? I am curious if it counts as a boss, since it does count for the event.

Stormlight
02-02-2016, 12:13 AM
Yes, the final battle is treated as a boss fight for DC purposes.

I'd also like to point out that the chance for a random stardust for elves is also for "defeating a dungeon" and doesn't get doubled for DC. The special event seems to be using the exact same kind of mechanism for giving out the special rewards (appears after the rewards for the boss fight, isn't doubled). So it's not like they created something different just to avoid the DC bonus (unless you want to accuse them of making the elf trait the way it is just to avoid the DC bonus).

Xexist
02-02-2016, 12:15 AM
The drop rate seems fairly generous as it is. So generous that anyone who misses out on the cards will likely be able to pick them up relatively cheap. Thats my guess anyways.

Ebynfel
02-02-2016, 12:23 AM
I thought DC was supposed to get "Double rolls on loot table" is how it was explained durink KS. Loot table doesnt include rewards from other sources such as quests and whatnot, is how I have always understood it.

KingGabriel
02-02-2016, 12:42 AM
My main question is why we're having to have this clarified now as apposed to having this clearly stated from the outset. (Maybe it was and I'm missing something?) If you're introducing something new, such as event PvE items, either you planned ahead and stated how that relates to prior account bound benefits close to or during the KS or you state it from the outset (e.g. As soon as event PvE items are announced), instead of leaving players to find out right after they start playing that content?

I'm not sure I'd mind either way, but communicating it to players promptly is important.

(and yes, I include elf trait comboing etc as part of the problem in communication especially when say human gold stacks.)

(I'm PP/DC/RL/Warrior)

Marsden
02-02-2016, 03:12 AM
I'm definitely disappointed with this change (compared to the Frost Arena). There's a very small difference between it dropping from beating the boss and it dropping from defeating the dungeon - which is something that only happens after beating the boss.

LNQ
02-02-2016, 03:56 AM
This stuff really needs to be communicated beforehand, HexEnt. I'm somewhat fine with not getting double Ardor Day rewards, but I was expecting to get them because of how previous special events worked and with no communication otherwise.

Kroan
02-02-2016, 04:54 AM
Geez. Whatever guys. It's not like it's a really rare drop or so. Just play the game and you can easily get a play set in the huge amount of time that is been given to collect them. #firstworldproblems

Xexist
02-02-2016, 06:03 AM
Geez. Whatever guys. It's not like it's a really rare drop or so. Just play the game and you can easily get a play set in the huge amount of time that is been given to collect them. #firstworldproblems

To be fair, if people are acting entitled, its because they ARE entitled. To double loot. That they were promised.

BKCshah
02-02-2016, 06:19 AM
They are entitled to Double Loot from Dungeon Boss Drops.

One could easily argue the arena is not technically a dungeon. 100% extra loot drop (gold, items, etc.) from dungeon bosses FOR LIFE of the game!

This is a dungeon completion event. Sure you have to beat the boss, but he's not the one dropping it. Past results/actions do not indicate the future. Perhaps it was too much of a pain to load a second completion award into arena, so it was just tied to the boss battle. Originally DC didn't even apply to the arena (can't recall whether this was intended or not, but changed to include DC later).

This is a good decision imo.

ShadowRealm
02-02-2016, 07:13 AM
I'm a Dungeon Crawler, and despite the fact I was expecting to receive the Ardor Day rewards with the defeat of the boss (same windows) due to other events, etc.
When I saw it was a separate windows / rewards system, I was surprised but told myself it was OK this way (if they changed it for good), and will avoid the huge amount of cards and equips in AH like the ones from Halloween and Christmas. We just like when HEX Ent announces stuff prior to be surprised (either in a bad way, but also in a good way). Apparently, things working in a way today can work in another way the next time.

Saeijou
02-02-2016, 07:33 AM
i'm a little bit sad, that we don't get a reward in the arena... one drop per complete run would be fair i guess...
but well.. not happening ;)

LNQ
02-02-2016, 07:35 AM
Apparently, things working in a way today can work in another way the next time.

Yes, this is the only thing I have an issue with. Not even this actually, but that the change (vs. the Halloween event for example) was not clarified anywhere.

Xexist
02-02-2016, 08:30 AM
They are entitled to Double Loot from Dungeon Boss Drops.

One could easily argue the arena is not technically a dungeon. 100% extra loot drop (gold, items, etc.) from dungeon bosses FOR LIFE of the game!

This is a dungeon completion event. Sure you have to beat the boss, but he's not the one dropping it. Past results/actions do not indicate the future. Perhaps it was too much of a pain to load a second completion award into arena, so it was just tied to the boss battle. Originally DC didn't even apply to the arena (can't recall whether this was intended or not, but changed to include DC later).

This is a good decision imo.

So Hex could change ALL loot to dungeon rewards, not boss drops and it would still be considered honoring their promise?

Tazelbain
02-02-2016, 08:58 AM
The current set up fulfills the KS promise of double loot rolls on the boss. Dungeon Packs are neat implementation of loot rolls and we get double of them. Obviously in the past they were extremely generous to double special event awards. Past generosity does obligate future generosity.

Vorpal
02-02-2016, 10:04 AM
I think this is the right call. There was never any expectation that DC would somehow give you double the loot during timed special events.

It's much easier to get the 'right' drop rate for event items like this if everyone is on a level playing field.

ThomasHunter
02-02-2016, 10:14 AM
... if everyone is on a level playing field.

I think every $250+ tier breaks this. They were created with breaking a level "playing field" in mind.

In this specific case, I felt bummed, but mostly because of "past practices". DC folks received double event items in the Arena. Can I live with it? Sure. Just not pleased. Oh well.

What I am really curious about is the current thought behind bosses. I have a KS email to the Hex team on this subject (I'll have to dig it out again). I've only made it to the first dungeon (Dreaming) and there is only 1 boss. Sure, it's a small dungeon, but I'll admit that this has raised my anxiety level a bit as I based my purchase on this very issue.

Happy gaming!
Taleisin

darkwonders
02-02-2016, 10:27 AM
Yeah. So far the boss loot seems pretty underwhelming for a DC backer...

Guess we were spoiled with the Arena.

Xexist
02-02-2016, 10:37 AM
Yeah. So far the boss loot seems pretty underwhelming for a DC backer...

Guess we were spoiled with the Arena.

To be optimistic, this is only the release. There should hopefully be endgame content later with much chasier and harder to get loot which DC will get double chance at.

I also kinda wish that world bosses like piranha and killipede etc gave double loot. I know its not a DUNGEON boss, but lets face it back when we backed noone really knew what a 'dungeon' would end up looking like.

darkwonders
02-02-2016, 10:40 AM
To be optimistic, this is only the release. There should hopefully be endgame content later with much chasier and harder to get loot which DC will get double chance at.

I also kinda wish that world bosses like piranha and killipede etc gave double loot. I know its not a DUNGEON boss, but lets face it back when we backed noone really knew what a 'dungeon' would end up looking like.

I know, which is why I think we were really spoiled with Arena when CZE decided that the bosses there would count as Dungeon Bosses.

Granted opening up 2 packs feels better than seeing the list of rewards at the end of Arena. But Seeing more rewards at the end of Arena feels better than seeing 2 packs for beating a boss.

Xexist
02-02-2016, 10:45 AM
I know, which is why I think we were really spoiled with Arena when CZE decided that the bosses there would count as Dungeon Bosses.

Granted opening up 2 packs feels better than seeing the list of rewards at the end of Arena. But Seeing more rewards at the end of Arena feels better than seeing 2 packs for beating a boss.

Keep in mind they did that at least in part because collectors were already getting value, draft players were already getting value. I think they were just being generous so DC didnt have to feel butthurt

Svenn
02-02-2016, 10:50 AM
What I am really curious about is the current thought behind bosses. I have a KS email to the Hex team on this subject (I'll have to dig it out again). I've only made it to the first dungeon (Dreaming) and there is only 1 boss. Sure, it's a small dungeon, but I'll admit that this has raised my anxiety level a bit as I based my purchase on this very issue.

Happy gaming!
Taleisin

I've been through all but the Underworld faction dungeon (Fort Romor) at this point. There is only 1 boss per dungeon. However, this is really just the "early game" content. I was actually very worried about the dungeon designs up until I hit Devonshire Keep. They all seemed very linear and small. Devonshire is more what I expected and has me hopeful for more interesting dungeons in the future.

Vorpal
02-02-2016, 10:57 AM
One boss per dungeon is as expected. The DC rewards should never have applied to Arena, but Hex did DC tiers a solid by giving them the boost, since PP and Collector were already getting big value from their tiers. (What about raid leader? Or guild master?) DC tiers have nothing to complain about here.

I hope Hex generosity in this case is not going to be held against them. DC rewards are very clear, more loot from dungeon bosses. It should never have applied to arena, and should never have applied to events in the arena.

Tazelbain
02-02-2016, 11:10 AM
It should never have applied to arena, and should never have applied to events in the arena.This seems overboard. Arena is definitely a dungeon since it is a set of themed PvE encounters that you must win in a set number of lives.

magic_gazz
02-02-2016, 11:47 AM
Just checked the kickstarter page and there were 964 Dungeon Crawler tiers purchased.

Those people account for a fraction of the kickstarter backers and an even smaller number of the total players in the game currently. I do not see why you feel like you should get more stuff. You picked that tier, if you feel that the other levels are getting better benefits that is your mistake.

Also remember that you have already received way more than the $250 of value you put in.

Gwaer
02-02-2016, 11:57 AM
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24461&p=232758&viewfull=1#post232758

I'm in my phone and can't effectively search the forum but we were told officially that DC didn't apply to just the final boss encounter, but also to mini bosses, it was described that most dungeons will contain many different encounter types but the majority of them would be encounters that the DC bonus counted for. That's the only reason the arena implementation made any sense.

I think at the time they said that, they didn't know what a firm grasp they'd take of the gold economy. Personally I would be much happier if gold dropped much easier, was worth less, and the unlocks and chest spinning was actually an attainable venture. In the light of that, however, they have to be pretty careful with what they allow DC to double, since it could end up getting out of hand in such a restrained gold market.

To actually comment on the topic of this thread, a dungeon completion reward, is just that, and outside the purview of DC tier. A Boss dropping special items though, probably wouldn't be. So in the future you can be prepared for the difference and know what to expect.

Vorpal
02-02-2016, 12:21 PM
I'm fine with it applying for mini bosses as well as bosses. They're all bosses. Presumably the reference to 'bosses' means it doesn't apply to every single dungeon encounter.

Aside from the end boss, I don't feel it's communicated well what is a normal encounter and what is a 'boss' in game.

Xexist
02-02-2016, 12:23 PM
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24461&p=232758&viewfull=1#post232758

I'm in my phone and can't effectively search the forum but we were told officially that DC didn't apply to just the final boss encounter, but also to mini bosses, it was described that most dungeons will contain many different encounter types but the majority of them would be encounters that the DC bonus counted for. That's the only reason the arena implementation made any sense.

I think at the time they said that, they didn't know what a firm grasp they'd take of the gold economy. Personally I would be much happier if gold dropped much easier, was worth less, and the unlocks and chest spinning was actually an attainable venture. In the light of that, however, they have to be pretty careful with what they allow DC to double, since it could end up getting out of hand in such a restrained gold market.

To actually comment on the topic of this thread, a dungeon completion reward, is just that, and outside the purview of DC tier. A Boss dropping special items though, probably wouldn't be. So in the future you can be prepared for the difference and know what to expect.

My thinking is the more players that join and keep playing hex, the less and less kickstarter backers (of any of the higher tiers) will effect the overall economy. They probably collectively make a difference now, but with twice, or 3 times the fan base the effect will be much less.

KingGabriel
02-02-2016, 12:34 PM
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24461&p=232758&viewfull=1#post232758

I'm in my phone and can't effectively search the forum but we were told officially that DC didn't apply to just the final boss encounter, but also to mini bosses, [Quote shortened]

Doesn't that mean lord Alexander and Benjamin might count? It really isn't clear what counts as a mini-boss.

Gwaer
02-02-2016, 01:15 PM
Doesn't that mean lord Alexander and Benjamin might count? It really isn't clear what counts as a mini-boss.

I agree, it's very unclear. I feel like they're backing off on their original KS statements about what DC would do, and making it basically apply once for the final encounter at the end of a dungeon, which is very much not what it was billed as. Again, I feel like that is a symptom of their incredibly unfun and aggressive gold pricing.

Raith
02-02-2016, 02:03 PM
From the kickstarter.


+100% extra loot drop (gold, items, etc.) from dungeon bosses FOR LIFE of the game!

From the link Gwaer shared.


Q: Is there one boss per dungeon or are there multiple bosses per dungeon where the Dungeon Crawler reward of double loot will apply?

A: Some dungeons are 4-6 mini-bosses and a dungeon boss, some have up to 15-20 rooms/bosses/encounters before the final dungeon boss. So there is a lot of value for the Dungeon Crawler tier!

A lot of the backer rewards carried unknown risk at the time of the kickstarter including Dungeon Crawler. Some of the tiers will definitely pay off more than others which is fine. However, I'll admit that so far the bonus seems lackluster in adventure zone 1. HexEnt has tied the bonus only to bosses as per the promise. The gold in particular has been diluted across the rest of the game dramatically. So, DC's don't get anywhere close to double gold. Just using arena as an example, the DC bonus was only an extra 20%. I haven't done the math in AZ1 but it's probably comparable.

I also think they have put way more incentive into rerunning the campaign with new characters versus just grinding dungeons. There are the faction only rewards, packs from quest rewards, etc. So DC is getting nothing close to double loot from the PvE campaign.

HexEnt can set the lever at whatever they want, whether that be all rewards are treated as a boss encounter or nothing counts as a boss encounter. However, as the game continues to go through development, it would be a shame if dungeon crawler gets trivialized solely for the sake of the economy. The backers didn't make the promise, HexEnt did. And I'm sure the backer levels would have been different if the kickstarter said something like "+10% extra loot drop (gold, items, etc.) FOR LIFE of the game!" It doesn't have quite the same ring to it. :)

Xexist
02-02-2016, 02:12 PM
From the kickstarter.



From the link Gwaer shared.



A lot of the backer rewards carried unknown risk at the time of the kickstarter including Dungeon Crawler. Some of the tiers will definitely pay off more than others which is fine. However, I'll admit that so far the bonus seems lackluster in adventure zone 1. HexEnt has tied the bonus only to bosses as per the promise. The gold in particular has been diluted across the rest of the game dramatically. So, DC's don't get anywhere close to double gold. Just using arena as an example, the DC bonus was only an extra 20%. I haven't done the math in AZ1 but it's probably comparable.

I also think they have put way more incentive into rerunning the campaign with new characters versus just grinding dungeons. There are the faction only rewards, packs from quest rewards, etc. So DC is getting nothing close to double loot from the PvE campaign.

HexEnt can set the lever at whatever they want, whether that be all rewards are treated as a boss encounter or nothing counts as a boss encounter. However, as the game continues to go through development, it would be a shame if dungeon crawler gets trivialized solely for the sake of the economy. The backers didn't make the promise, HexEnt did. And I'm sure the backer levels would have been different if the kickstarter said something like "+10% extra loot drop (gold, items, etc.) FOR LIFE of the game!" It doesn't have quite the same ring to it. :)

Great post. I agree with this completely. 4-6 mini bosses and a boss? Fair enough THOSE dungeons havent been implemented yet I guess. but unless Im mistaken, NO current dungeons have mini bosses (with doubled loot) either that, or the 'mini bosses' simply dont drop loot, so there is nothing to double.

Jormungandr
02-02-2016, 02:22 PM
Great post. I agree with this completely. 4-6 mini bosses and a boss? Fair enough THOSE dungeons havent been implemented yet I guess. but unless Im mistaken, NO current dungeons have mini bosses (with doubled loot) either that, or the 'mini bosses' simply dont drop loot, so there is nothing to double.

Yeah, it sounds like their direction for dungeons might have changed over the past 2 and a half years. (I just read that to myself and it sounds sarcastic -- not intended that way)

My guess based on 0 data is that they originally planned on having gold/cards/equipment drop off of individual bosses / mini-bosses like most MMO loot structures, and then came upon the idea of a dungeon pack that contained those things, and decided to award that only at the end, but with multiple items in it.

That being said, it's also possible that future dungeons will be built differently with more discrete points at which loot will drop rather than just at the end.

Aradon
02-02-2016, 03:25 PM
I think they wanted longer dungeons, but realized that, for now at least, the lengthier dungeons had too much risk and time investment that was wasted if things went sour later. Even the Devonshire Keep tests my patience for amount of effort lost at the end of a run if you fail.

For example, the Junk Yard Dog dungeon looks to be 20+ nodes, which would be pretty punishing if you ended up losing after all that. It's problematic design, so until they figure out a checkpoint system (or get the enabling Mercenary system in place), I think they're sticking with the shorter dungeon experiences that don't need to be broken up by minibosses.

Lafoote
02-03-2016, 04:32 AM
I'm a DC myself. I would vastly prefer everything tied to dungeon bosses, but it's not a realistic expectation. This event is not, and for those who are upset it was not clearly communicated, you are wrong.

"During the Ardor Day event, you have the chance to catch the fiendish devil of unnatural attractions. I hear you may also get the chance at stealing his trinkets. In order to do so, you must defeat a dungeon… ANY DUNGEON… and you will earn one of the three items at random… Pucid, the Matchmaker card, the Matchmaker’s Mitts (Equipment), and Loveinomicon (Equipment)."

Next you'll say you can't complete a dungeon without defeating the boss, which is true, but you also can't complete a dungeon without drawing a card, and that is also unrelated to Ardor day loot.

Regarding the lack of mini bosses in dungeons and such, I think the reason we're not seeing that so far is that you can't force people to play half assed, restricted decks then throw content of exaggerated length and difficulty at them. Give it time to progress.

As far as Gwaer's lengthy post about gold strangulation, I agree 100 percent [squared]. I understand the need to piece gold out at various encounters so people who lose don't walk away with nothing. However, unless gold rewards for bosses in bigger dungeons are dramatically improved(which in fairness, they may) all the DC players will just be running Frost Ring once they pull the cards they want from campaign content.

KingGabriel
02-03-2016, 05:28 AM
Irregardless, we're going to get a ton of these threads until some sort of clarification appears.

Marsden
02-03-2016, 06:31 AM
Next you'll say you can't complete a dungeon without defeating the boss, which is true, but you also can't complete a dungeon without drawing a card, and that is also unrelated to Ardor day loot.

That's a terrible analogy.

If a boss is not signified by dungeon completion that there are a few more bosses in the dungeons where I would start to question why DC isn't applying. All three of the Triumvirate could be argued as bosses in that case.

Svenn
02-03-2016, 07:58 AM
That's a terrible analogy.

If a boss is not signified by dungeon completion that there are a few more bosses in the dungeons where I would start to question why DC isn't applying. All three of the Triumvirate could be argued as bosses in that case.

It is possible to have a dungeon without a boss.

Xenavire
02-03-2016, 08:04 AM
It is possible to have a dungeon without a boss.

I'd love to see some sort of puzzle dungeon that you can only do once a day (well, complete once a day, you could try again if you failed) and has a randomised puzzle at the end instead of a boss (potentially not even an encounter at all) that rewarded you with some really neat cosmetic related stuff.

Lafoote
02-03-2016, 09:07 AM
That's a terrible analogy.

If a boss is not signified by dungeon completion that there are a few more bosses in the dungeons where I would start to question why DC isn't applying. All three of the Triumvirate could be argued as bosses in that case.

It is a perfect analogy. while defeating the boss(es) is generally the final step of a game dungeon, it is not necessary to attach all rewards to that, or any other particular step. They could have made a chance to drop at every encounter. They could have made a chance to drop at bosses. They could have made a chance to drop only on perfect runs. They chose to make the qualifying step the actual completion. We don't get to ravage the countyside with our DC Pucid hordes. We'll live.

Vorpal
02-03-2016, 09:10 AM
Irregardless, we're going to get a ton of these threads until some sort of clarification appears.

What clarification is needed? The Ardor day loot isn't from a boss, so DC does not apply.

It's possible people had unrealistic expectations due to Hex generosity in the past by letting the DC tier have rewards to which it was not entitled, but I hope people aren't going to hold that against Hex.

Badmoonz
02-03-2016, 09:12 AM
To me it seems like there is always a degree of semantics involved with this Dungeon Crawlers. It's very easy to say "The boss didn't drop that, the chest behind him did." "That's not a dungeon, that's an arena." "That's not a boss, it's a tactical challenge". Perhaps each of these scenarios are valid, but they seem disingenuous to what the the Dungeon Crawler perk stands for.

To be fair, Cryptozoic has done a good job of making sure that these problems haven't happened in the past.

Saeijou
02-03-2016, 09:23 AM
well... in the end it will always be like that...
DC want more from there perks... people that don't have DC don't want that...

in the end HXE has to say what happens... we can discuss until eternity... we can't change it :)

Xenavire
02-03-2016, 09:30 AM
well... in the end it will always be like that...
DC want more from there perks... people that don't have DC don't want that...

in the end HXE has to say what happens... we can discuss until eternity... we can't change it :)

For all I care DC could be bumped up to triple loot. I just don't think that event items should count (it's an event, everyone should be equal.)

If there are ever raiding events, I would expect their perk to get shut down temporarily too.

Xexist
02-03-2016, 09:59 AM
What clarification is needed? The Ardor day loot isn't from a boss, so DC does not apply.

It's possible people had unrealistic expectations due to Hex generosity in the past by letting the DC tier have rewards to which it was not entitled, but I hope people aren't going to hold that against Hex.

As someone else pointed out they can fuck over dungeon crawler in a number of different ways. The BOSS doesnt drop the loot, its in a chest! The BOSS doesnt drop the loot, his minion/pet does! They BOSS doesnt have the loot, Cory Jones hand delivers it on his private jet! That doesnt mean it doesnt break the spirit of the Tier. and Im saying this as someone that is fine with not having doubled event loot.

noragar
02-03-2016, 10:09 AM
Great post. I agree with this completely. 4-6 mini bosses and a boss? Fair enough THOSE dungeons havent been implemented yet I guess. but unless Im mistaken, NO current dungeons have mini bosses (with doubled loot) either that, or the 'mini bosses' simply dont drop loot, so there is nothing to double.

The Frost Ring Arena is a dungeon that's already been implemented with 4 mini-bosses. Unless I'm mistaken, they do give double loot.

Also, it probably wouldn't be too much of a stretch of the definition to consider Uruunaz a boss. In that case, Arena would also be an example of a dungeon that's possible to complete without beating the boss.

Turtlewing
02-03-2016, 10:13 AM
During the Kickstarter we were led to believe that all Dungeon loot came from a boss and all non-raid PvE would be Dungeons.

It's easy to see how someone could find loot from adventure zone encounters, loot from non-boss encounters in dungeons, and completion rewards for dungeons 'not counting' as against the spirit of what they were promised.

I think the best compromise would really be to have anything you get from a dungeon boss or on completion of a dungeon get doubled and not put things you don't want DC's getting doubles of in dungeons.

Perhaps a better strategy for future events would be to look into adding temporary adventure zone encounters. You could have a chain of adventure zone nodes that only open up during the event that tells a little story and drops event loot. It'd be a lot more work than the current system, but probably worth it and they could reuse a lot of the assets for future iterations of the event.

hex_colin
02-03-2016, 10:17 AM
Events are supposed to be different from everything else - no special bonuses associated with them. Even the Producers have to log in and get the cards and equipment themselves - they are not in the automatic grants.

DC folks got a bit of an extra bonus for the first couple of events while PVE was still being implemented. Now that the Campaign framework exists, it's different. It's really not worth worrying about - it's not like they're excessively difficult to obtain.

Saeijou
02-03-2016, 10:17 AM
During the Kickstarter we were led to believe that all Dungeon loot came from a boss and all non-raid PvE would be Dungeons.

It's easy to see how someone could find loot from adventure zone encounters, loot from non-boss encounters in dungeons, and completion rewards for dungeons 'not counting' as against the spirit of what they were promised.

I think the best compromise would really be to have anything you get from a dungeon boss or on completion of a dungeon get doubled and not put things you don't want DC's getting doubles of in dungeons.

Perhaps a better strategy for future events would be to look into adding temporary adventure zone encounters. You could have a chain of adventure zone nodes that only open up during the event that tells a little story and drops event loot. It'd be a lot more work than the current system, but probably worth it and they could reuse a lot of the assets for future iterations of the event.

but in that case you have to farm something over and over again... now you can at least choose different dungeons

Jormungandr
02-03-2016, 10:23 AM
Perhaps a better strategy for future events would be to look into adding temporary adventure zone encounters. You could have a chain of adventure zone nodes that only open up during the event that tells a little story and drops event loot. It'd be a lot more work than the current system, but probably worth it and they could reuse a lot of the assets for future iterations of the event.

I really like the options I have right now to farm up my cards/equipment. There are multiple dungeons I can run which keeps things from getting too boring / repetitive, and it's something I can do alongside trying to get a drop I want from a dungeon pack. That will only get better as more adventure zones with more dungeons open up, I would think. I'd rather not switch to a system with less variety in what I can run. That being said, I do kind of like the idea of an event happening in-game that you can interact with in some way. I just wouldn't want that to be the sole way to get the rewards.

Xexist
02-03-2016, 10:35 AM
The Frost Ring Arena is a dungeon that's already been implemented with 4 mini-bosses. Unless I'm mistaken, they do give double loot.

Also, it probably wouldn't be too much of a stretch of the definition to consider Uruunaz a boss. In that case, Arena would also be an example of a dungeon that's possible to complete without beating the boss.

In the campaign, if you really didnt know what I meant.

Vorpal
02-03-2016, 10:38 AM
I think the current system is good. Being able to get the event cards by going to any dungeon is good. It's good that the event cards are on an even playing field and certain KS tiers don't get more of them.

If anything, I think we need more dungeon mini-bosses (that the DC tier should also work on)

Turtlewing
02-03-2016, 11:06 AM
but in that case you have to farm something over and over again... now you can at least choose different dungeons

Unless it's not designed so you have to farm it at all.

They could juts have the drops be fixed so completing the event once gets you the whole set. (the encounters don't even necessarily have to be repeatable)

Harsgalt
02-03-2016, 05:14 PM
As someone else pointed out they can unicornpoop over dungeon crawler in a number of different ways. The BOSS doesnt drop the loot, its in a chest! The BOSS doesnt drop the loot, his minion/pet does! They BOSS doesnt have the loot, Cory Jones hand delivers it on his private jet! That doesnt mean it doesnt break the spirit of the Tier. and Im saying this as someone that is fine with not having doubled event loot.

In other news, the following changes have been made to other kickstarter tiers to bring them inline with bosses 'guarding' loot rather than dropping it.

THE COLLECTOR TIER:

Everything from the King tier.
6 NEW Alternate Art PVP cards per year, exclusive to “the Collector” Tier for life of the game.
“The Collector” exclusive Deck Customizable Sleeves.
A second set of all exclusive cards from the King level.

Collectors will still get 6 AA PVP cards per year, but only 1 per year will be rare. Furthermore these cards will be account bound and not be tradeable. Not that you would want to trade these super valuable cards, you're collectors right? Gotta collect'em all!


THE RAID LEADER TIER:

Everything from the King tier.
+1 Card in the opening hand of all players grouped with “The Raid Leader” in non-tournament PVE content FOR LIFE of the game!
“The Raid Leader” exclusive Deck Customizable Sleeves.
Raid Leader- exclusive PVE card.

Bonuses only apply to dungeons for which players are start together with the raid leader. For raids where players start off separated and have to regroup, the bonus does not apply until they are reunited. Furthermore, the bonuses only apply to players that are located within 1km geographically together (HEX lan??). You're supposed to be a team right, get together, work together!


THE GUILD MASTER TIER:

Everything from the King tier.
+10% PVE experience for all members of the “The Guild Masters” guild FOR LIFE of the game!
“The Guild Master” exclusive Deck Customizable Sleeves.
Special Guild Code: give 30 booster packs each to 3 of your friends (180.00 value).

Guilds have a max of 10 members to prevent people signing up to a 'open guild master tier guild' and therefore everyone receiving 10% PVE. The 10% experience is also only active when the guild leader is actually logged in. If a leader isn't present, how can he inspire his fellows? Show some leadership, dammit! Also, all cards generated from the 30 booster packs are non-tradable.


THE PRO PLAYER TIER:

Everything from the King tier. One free draft tournament each week FOR LIFE of the game! “The Pro Player” exclusive Deck Customizable Sleeves. Kickstarter exclusive tournament for the Pro Player tier (this reward may happen after Sep 2013). Grand Prize for the tournament: 4 of every card at release.

Ahhh the first tier to sell out. You guys will no longer get to keep any of the cards you draft. Nor will you receive end of tournament prizes. Play for the fun of the game, not for the winnings right?

Please note that not a single kickstarter promise has been broken and all tiers are still getting what they paid for. It may not be in the supposed spirit, but it is to the letter.

/end_satire

In all seriousness, this event has had very good drop rates and people should be able to very easily get a playset of everything they should want. As such I don't mind the DC perks don't apply. I don't care about 'value', the stuff is junk and very cheap on the AH. I just wanted to be fully experience HEX and being locked out of deck types such as things as storm coat [:edit was frustrating] and I think hexent have learned from this.

I personally chose DC to reduce the grind (not to get more stuff to make profit, I repeat the stuff is junk) which even though is still relevant in principle, is irrelevant in the fact I will still be completing dungeons even after I have all my ardor day loot.

Gwaer
02-03-2016, 05:21 PM
I just want to say again that I have no problem whatsoever with event loot being outside the purview of DC. My issues have more to do with there's a great deal more of the game not located 'inside dungeons' and the things that 'bosses' drop aren't really in spirit with the description of the tier during the KS. Things change and this is the first wave of PVE, but in the future hopefully that is kept in mind. RL and GM still have a lot coming to them as well. So this is by no means a priority for me or a major concern. Just don't want economic decisions to marginalize a sold out category of backers. If they feel like the tier or the game needs to change to meet the kind of expectation that it set, then hopefully they'll be able to make that change.

Amsterdam
02-03-2016, 07:08 PM
As someone else pointed out they can fuck over dungeon crawler in a number of different ways. The BOSS doesnt drop the loot, its in a chest! The BOSS doesnt drop the loot, his minion/pet does! They BOSS doesnt have the loot, Cory Jones hand delivers it on his private jet! That doesnt mean it doesnt break the spirit of the Tier. and Im saying this as someone that is fine with not having doubled event loot.


During the Kickstarter we were led to believe that all Dungeon loot came from a boss and all non-raid PvE would be Dungeons.

It's easy to see how someone could find loot from adventure zone encounters, loot from non-boss encounters in dungeons, and completion rewards for dungeons 'not counting' as against the spirit of what they were promised.



^^This

Kasbark
02-04-2016, 01:27 AM
I think it's super annoying we have to have this debate every time new content is released. When i bought the DC tier i was told we would get double loot from dungeon bosses, and it was clarified that most encounters in dungeons would be considered a boss.

Now it seems that is not the case. There is only 1 boss per dungeon - apparently Benjamin and Alexander are not strong enough to be considered even a miniboss - and Crypto are moving loot away from boss drops to 'dungeon rewards' which apparently does not count for the DC tier.

Xenavire
02-04-2016, 05:58 AM
When was it clarified that most encounters would be bosses? So far the only dungeon we were ever shown in it's entirety was the Krakens gold dungeon (barring the ones we have in AZ1) and that had three bosses, two of which were entirely optional, and the dungeon itself seemed to have roughly 15 nodes (giving a ratio of roughly 1:5 nodes to bosses.) And they never said every boss would have loot (I would expect an odd boss or two to have special effects on the way the dungeons play out instead, like reducing the health of the end boss, etc.)

If I am incorrect at all, are there links to the info I have missed? (If it was a stream, disregard, I know how hard it is to track down info in ancient streams.)

ThomasHunter
02-04-2016, 06:55 AM
I just want to say again that I have no problem whatsoever with event loot being outside the purview of DC. My issues have more to do with there's a great deal more of the game not located 'inside dungeons' and the things that 'bosses' drop aren't really in spirit with the description of the tier during the KS. Things change and this is the first wave of PVE, but in the future hopefully that is kept in mind. RL and GM still have a lot coming to them as well. So this is by no means a priority for me or a major concern. Just don't want economic decisions to marginalize a sold out category of backers. If they feel like the tier or the game needs to change to meet the kind of expectation that it set, then hopefully they'll be able to make that change.

I thought this was quite succinctly said.

I like the design of the "overland" (non-dungeon) stuff. However, it seems to really lower the initial thoughts and communications on how often we would encounter a "boss". Hopefully we see this implemented more as we get more PVE content.

I also know that the devs have always been quite generous - especially with the KS backers - so I have to believe that will continue in the future.

LNQ
02-04-2016, 07:21 AM
Somewhat unrelated, but I would like Boss encounters to boast additional flair in their character portrait / game board.

In all MMOs bosses and elite mobs are clearly distinguishable from normal mobs, via flair in their HP bar or otherwise. I want the same here!

Lafoote
02-04-2016, 07:29 AM
Somewhat unrelated, but I would like Boss encounters to boast additional flair in their character portrait / game board.

In all MMOs bosses and elite mobs are clearly distinguishable from normal mobs, via flair in their HP bar or otherwise. I want the same here!

Nice thought. Gold portrait border or some such to make bosses clearly distinguishable would be nice.

Tarquin
02-04-2016, 08:19 AM
I think it's super annoying we have to have this debate every time new content is released. When i bought the DC tier i was told we would get double loot from dungeon bosses, and it was clarified that most encounters in dungeons would be considered a boss.

Now it seems that is not the case. There is only 1 boss per dungeon - apparently Benjamin and Alexander are not strong enough to be considered even a miniboss - and Crypto are moving loot away from boss drops to 'dungeon rewards' which apparently does not count for the DC tier.

It's weird how Alexander isn't considered a miniboss

noragar
02-04-2016, 08:21 AM
I haven't finished the last AZ1 dungeon yet, but in all the other campaign dungeons, the boss drops the dungeon pack and also gives more gold and experience than any of the other encounters in the dungeon. The vast majority of the value in the dungeon rewards lies in the pack. Wouldn't a DC get two packs for beating the boss instead of one? If not, I think they should. If they do, then at least 80-90% of the total value for completing the dungeon comes from the boss and gets doubled for DC.

Lafoote
02-04-2016, 09:23 AM
2 packs instead of one is correct.

Tazelbain
02-04-2016, 09:30 AM
I haven't finished the last AZ1 dungeon yet, but in all the other campaign dungeons, the boss drops the dungeon pack and also gives more gold and experience than any of the other encounters in the dungeon. The vast majority of the value in the dungeon rewards lies in the pack. Wouldn't a DC get two packs for beating the boss instead of one? If not, I think they should. If they do, then at least 80-90% of the total value for completing the dungeon comes from the boss and gets doubled for DC.This is exactly what happens. It's really good.

Roy_G
02-04-2016, 11:58 AM
The event drops come after defeating the dungeon boss,whie it's possible to say it's a boss drop it's an event drop from completing a dungeon it's still very ugly sementics and effectivly reduce the value of a tier which is already lower value compared to the others and not fair to the people who back at DC level.

Turtlewing
02-04-2016, 12:16 PM
Exactly what happens is a bit more clear if you play an elf.

It's the same "dungeon completed" drop that gives you your stardust that gives the event drop.

The main issue is that does seem a bit contrived, especially if you haven't played an elf and didn't know that step was a thing. I think combined with the addition of adventure zones adding a lot of single player PvE content where the DC perk doesn't apply (it was presented as single player PvE=dungeons, multiplayer PvE=raids during KS) it's easy to get the impression that CZE is looking for excuses to not apply the DC perk.

On the other hand XP apparently counts as loot (is that a bug?), so the DC perk is also giving double XP from dungeon bosses which isn't something we were ever promised.

[edit] Also the double XP thing is probably at least in part responsible for the relatively low count of dungeon bosses. completely doubling your XP gain even juts in dungeons would be pretty nuts, and potentially problematic for presenting a challenge at anything before "end game" content.