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Sinistarlol
02-02-2016, 04:09 PM
Some of you may remember I was having a bit of a rant yesterday in chat about why Friend of Jank Bot is inferior to a talent that Coyotle unlocks at level 15.


Let's analyze this from beginning to end as I encourage HEX employees, and other community members to partake in a discussion about what can be done to re-work the dwarves talent to align up with cosmic power from coyotle.


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So what has been gathered here? If you're looking at creating a Jank Bot deck than it appears Dwarves are second best. (Of course for the time being currently as of right now this talent [Cosmic Power] is not in the game.)

But once it is, then there's not much reason to actually create the traditional dwarf / artifact deck for Jank Bot.

Friend of Jank Bot needs to be 150 cards or more (same for Jank Bot) to be rewarded only 2 measly charge points. Where as this hilarious superior version of Friend of Jank Bot for the Coyotle at level 15 grants you +5 additional health points ontop of the 2 charge points at only +100 cards.

Nobody is going to make a 100 card deck without adding Jank Bot. Besides, once you have a high enough Coyotle Champion you can use 4/4/4/4 of each rarity so that's not going to be restrictive for them what so ever.

That's like Dwarves getting benefits for having Elves included into their deck, which makes zero sense.

Again, this whole pushing for 100 card thing is obviously going towards Jank Bot until more cards get released that require such said requirements.

My question is, why the bad game design?

Aradon
02-02-2016, 04:14 PM
If I recall, there was an article discussing the dwarf talent a ways back. Basically, they know it's weak, especially relative to other races. They intended it to be slightly weaker, because they felt the other dwarf racials (armor 1) were powerful, so they wanted something minor to add in.

Miyordon
02-02-2016, 04:22 PM
Okay, I don't know all the talent trees so well, but are you comparing a level 1 talent with a level 15 one and asking why it is better?

Vengus
02-02-2016, 04:24 PM
If I recall, there was an article discussing the dwarf talent a ways back. Basically, they know it's weak, especially relative to other races. They intended it to be slightly weaker, because they felt the other dwarf racials (armor 1) were powerful, so they wanted something minor to add in.
Yeah it was in the Dwarf Cleric article: https://www.hextcg.com/cleric-class/.


Because the dwarf’s final racial trait is so powerful, we wanted a cute, lower power racial trait in this slot that would also reward a certain play-style choice. There are a few other incentives peppered around for increasing your deck size, and dwarf is one of two races that provide a little optional nudge in that direction by allowing you to efficiently overlap with those incentives.

Personally I don't mind it since almost every race has a fluff trait that doesn't add much to the strength of a deck, whether it's a chance to get stardust, +gold/+exp, etc


Okay, I don't know all the talent trees so well, but are you comparing a level 1 talent with a level 15 one and asking why it is better?
This too.

Sinistarlol
02-02-2016, 04:26 PM
Okay, I don't know all the talent trees so well, but are you comparing a level 1 talent with a level 15 one and asking why it is better?

That's not relevant about the level of which the ability is unlocked. If abilities have power curves due to levels, than that changes everything. My point is - why is Jank Bot handled better else where than the master of Artifacts? Going under the assumption he is still the only troop that requires over a 100 card deck in order to slot him into it.

Miyordon
02-02-2016, 04:32 PM
That's not relevant about the level of which the ability is unlocked. If abilities have power curves due to levels, than that changes everything. My point is - why is Jank Bot handled better else where than the master of Artifacts? Going under the assumption he is still the only troop that requires over a 100 card deck in order to slot him into it.

It actually is pretty relevant. As of RIGHT NOW the Coyotle don't get this bonus. As of Level 15 the dwarves may get something that still skews large decks in their favor. You are making bad comparisons. If you are going to have a hypothetical level 15 coyotle, you need to have a hypothetical level 15 dwarf with which to compare. Comparison must take into account all talents which may effect the deck you are wanting to build. Is a level 15 Coyotle better for Jankbot than a Level 15 Dwarf? Without seeing all of the information, I have no idea.

Sinistarlol
02-02-2016, 04:39 PM
It actually is pretty relevant. As of RIGHT NOW the Coyotle don't get this bonus. As of Level 15 the dwarves may get something that still skews large decks in their favor. You are making bad comparisons. If you are going to have a hypothetical level 15 coyotle, you need to have a hypothetical level 15 dwarf with which to compare. Comparison must take into account all talents which may effect the deck you are wanting to build. Is a level 15 Coyotle better for Jankbot than a Level 15 Dwarf? Without seeing all of the information, I have no idea.

Nothing changes once you level up, regardless of you being a Cleric, Mage or Warrior. If you're a dwarf warrior that has something in favour for jank bot, then each race also gets access to this. Meaning, Coyotle would still be far greater of a choice if you specifically want to base decks on him which is.. silly to me. When I think about Jank Bot I think about the Dwarf and Artifact decks I construct with him in them.

Hypothetically based on the racial talents alone it's enough to make a good assumption that Jank Bot is better off with Coyotle.

I'm not trying to remove the ability to make good Jank Bots outside of his comfort zone but Coyotle already have quite a lot going for them. They're the only race that has no bad racial talents, with the exception of lack of information with the mage talent unlocked at (30).

If it's too much to ask, I'd at-least wish of them to re-work the talent that follows so closely to Cosmic Powers from Coyotle.

Yoss
02-02-2016, 05:51 PM
If I recall, there was an article discussing the dwarf talent a ways back. Basically, they know it's weak, especially relative to other races. They intended it to be slightly weaker, because they felt the other dwarf racials (armor 1) were powerful, so they wanted something minor to add in.

This. They know it's weak. It is that way on purpose because the other dwarf powers are strong.

Xenavire
02-02-2016, 09:35 PM
Armor is amazing. So amazing that my Dwarf Mage wrecked most encounters with a diamond/artifact deck, of all things (and yes, diamond is heavily restricted for dwarves.)

Besides, Jank bot isn't a dwarf card. It's a special deckbuilding card, and you can choose to build with it however you want. If you prefer a race, go for it. It doesn't mean that race/class combo is going to be flawless with Jabk Bot

Sinistarlol
02-02-2016, 09:38 PM
This. They know it's weak. It is that way on purpose because the other dwarf powers are strong.

You mean the one other passive besides it that's functioning as we speak. Since arguments on the other side are talking about the contradictory of cosmic powers not currently being in the game.

Look, the armor 1 is decent. It does prevent a single point of damage. But every other race whether it's good or bad has 2 passives they can work around with. Where as if you don't build a Jank Bot structured deck from the get-go you only get the armor 1 passive working. Nobody is going to make a Jank Bot deck with the incentive of only 2 charges at the beginning of game.

Keep in mind to compensate a single damage point reduction, you start with lesser health points which basically balances Armor 1 out.

It's why I'm frustrated that my favourite race is lackluster unless you go Jank Bot. And the other races that encourage Jank Bot like-decks are going to do a better job at it based on the description of their racial talents whether it's unlocked @ level 100 or higher.

Classes are all the same no matter what race you play, so talent point(s) doesn't resolve the situation. Just proves my point that dwarves have a single good racial talent from the beginning. The master artificer is pretty good, which is the level 15 talent.. but it could make anything good or bad. This is like playing a builder bot on turn one and +1 to starting hand, not to shabby.. but it's nowhere near as good as the passive Cosmic powers does in comparison.

And of course if you roll a mage, you have technomorph unlocked which is pretty RNG just like the master artificer.

I just don't see how players think it's okay for Coyotle to hog all the good passives? One good passive in the beginning for Dwarves in comparison to Coyotle who have better passives from level 0 to 30.


Besides, Jank bot isn't a dwarf card. It's a special deckbuilding card, and you can choose to build with it however you want. If you prefer a race, go for it. It doesn't mean that race/class combo is going to be flawless with Jabk Bot

But because the passive is there to entice players to construct Jank Bot decks on Dwarfs this is a problem. It'll be like dwarves having the incentive to make non artifact decks filled with another race. They then gain benefits from using that other race, who has a similar passive but isn't quite as strong, leaving you thinking ''Why are dwarves getting better benefits from this particular race / card then the race who SHOULD benefit the most from it"

It's not that exaggerated, okay I know. but that's the point.

Because that passive exists, it has to be critiqued. That's why I'm nitpicking about Jank Bot specifically due to Friend of Jank Bot's passive being underwhelmed in comparison to a coyotle talent at level 15.

Xenavire
02-02-2016, 09:51 PM
You are treating this subjective topic far too much like Coyotle are masters of Entrath. The fact of the matter is that Coyotles have the one of the least interesting racials (oh yay, a talent point.) Frankly with the grid limiting choices I couldn't be bothered with a deck over 60 right now, and +1 talent point is nice and all, but lacks the unique impact of the other races racials (Armor, +2/0 resources when battling an opponent, etc.) Also, the Coyotle mage spell is just terrible - sure, potential board wipe is nice, but potential whiff just makes it a gamble not worth taking imo.

I'll admit their blessing is neat, but I am not sold on all the different effects... I'll take consistent any day.

Sinistarlol
02-02-2016, 10:24 PM
You are treating this subjective topic far too much like Coyotle are masters of Entrath. The fact of the matter is that Coyotles have the one of the least interesting racials (oh yay, a talent point.) Frankly with the grid limiting choices I couldn't be bothered with a deck over 60 right now, and +1 talent point is nice and all, but lacks the unique impact of the other races racials (Armor, +2/0 resources when battling an opponent, etc.) Also, the Coyotle mage spell is just terrible - sure, potential board wipe is nice, but potential whiff just makes it a gamble not worth taking imo.

I'll admit their blessing is neat, but I am not sold on all the different effects... I'll take consistent any day.

I respect you a lot Xenavire.

I'll break it down with exactly what my problem is. Dwarves are not free-to-play friendly. First of all, you'd need to own a Jank Bot or make a 150 card deck without him just to get 2 charges in the beginning of your game. This is definitely not game changing what so ever

Also don't underestimate + talent points, those can be extremely useful. The races with such said talents may actually be the strongest in late game so watch out for that.

My main problem is that they're pushing for dwarf players to go for that 150 deck for something as underwhelming as 2 charge points. I'd prefer them to say, "okay Coyotle at level 15 will have the advantage of Jank Bot so let's re-work Friend of Jank Bot so it doesn't have to involve a 150 card deck." I'd be happy.

Even if it was just a single charge without the restriction of going over 60 cards, I'd be extremely happy. But again, the reason why I'm fighting this is because THEY intended dwarves to play with Jank Bots based on their talent design. So with that in mind, would you level a dwarf with the intentions of playing with Jank Bot's "Friend of Jank Bot" passive; or "Cosmic Powers".

So because it's encouraging players like myself to construct a deck (AS WE SPEAK) around Jank Bot then I have a problem with that. The restrictive grid is a problem with this as well. as you mentioned.

It was never about coyotle having better talents overall, just that the current version of this beginner talent is worthless without a Jank Bot and even then, sucks quite frankly.

Coyotle may have questionable talent decisions according to you, but your talents are accessible to whatever type of deck you might have from the get-go. So you can take advantage of having actual passives just by playing that race, where as Dwarves have requirements mainly with RNG abilities thrown into the mix.

Passives are actual passives for most races, dwarves only have 1 accessible passive without having to go past the 60 card limit. That's my problem. Too many restrictions even with the passive effects.

I hope that makes it clear as possible for readers. TLDR; Friend of Jank Bot needs to be re-worked due to other races having similar but superior passives accessible at later levels.

Maylick
02-02-2016, 10:48 PM
Weird. Large posts, explained opinion. Yet somehow you manage to move wrong direction. For example:


Dwarves are not free-to-play friendly.

Really? Armor 1 is easily 5+ health. Any fight with burn counters it's easily 10+ health. It even makes Killepede 2 a cake fight. Don't compare this to Elves, their +6 hp is way weaker almost all the time.
No one is forced to use the Jank passive. You start with a standard 60 card deck. But in the same time you do have Armor, which is crazy strong and you can't make mistake and NOT take it. In fact I'm sure this is easily better than both other racials traits for almost all races.

Every new player needs to learn that there are good and bad choices, regarding or regardless their deck choices and plays. There is still Mage talent for elementals, which is useless right now. Yet you can try it. Just to know that there is power level difference between abilities. Relatively and absolutely.
And that is good gamedesign. You don't need anything to be exactly the same, you need some difference to let players look for it and play around it. Also balance tweaks every now and then to keep this going.

Friend of Jank Bot is just fine because you don't need any more power for Dwarf to be on the same level as other races. Better nerf Necrotic Cleric!

Sinistarlol
02-02-2016, 11:14 PM
Weird. Large posts, explained opinion. Yet somehow you manage to move wrong direction. For example:


Really? Armor 1 is easily 5+ health. Any fight with burn counters it's easily 10+ health. It even makes Killepede 2 a cake fight. Don't compare this to Elves, their +6 hp is way weaker almost all the time.
No one is forced to use the Jank passive. You start with a standard 60 card deck. But in the same time you do have Armor, which is crazy strong and you can't make mistake and NOT take it. In fact I'm sure this is easily better than both other racials traits for almost all races.

Every new player needs to learn that there are good and bad choices, regarding or regardless their deck choices and plays. There is still Mage talent for elementals, which is useless right now. Yet you can try it. Just to know that there is power level difference between abilities. Relatively and absolutely.
And that is good gamedesign. You don't need anything to be exactly the same, you need some difference to let players look for it and play around it. Also balance tweaks every now and then to keep this going.

Friend of Jank Bot is just fine because you don't need any more power for Dwarf to be on the same level as other races. Better nerf Necrotic Cleric!

You really nitpicked your way back into this, without really regarding anything I had to say from previous posts. I never made comparison's to elves having a bigger health pool. I said how would you like it if "Dwarves had access to something that elves should do better than anybody else; yet get out performed by Dwarves."

As in a card that should have good synergy with Elves.

You're really exaggerating armor 1. You prevent one damage, this only works against the actual card Killipede on Killipede fight 2. It has a single point of damage, yes.. good counter. Now, what about rush decks? Mass troops? Will you still say wow this is crazy good, so good in fact that I'd sell every other talent just to have this. I doubt it. Besides, burn decks still make their damage go through.. it's just prevented one damage which helps, but doesn't make you invincible. You're overthinking it, you're applying armor 1 to a few encounters over so many that counters it.

I don't sit here and say Armor 1 does good against Wormoids. For less health points, depending on your chosen class, armor 1 helps. It doesn't do anything else. It just helps fight off a bit of early aggression.


Friend of Jank Bot is just fine because you don't need any more power for Dwarf to be on the same level as other races. Better nerf Necrotic Cleric!

I like how you acknowledge the fact that Friend of Jank Bot is a lesser beginning talent in comparison to other races, but won't chip in for any actual suggestions to re-correcting bad talent design. This isn't about Armor 1. This is about Friend of Jank Bot being useless.

And by the way, at least Necrotic have access to all their passives from the beginning regardless how you feel about them being 'worthless' or not interesting enough. Their health pool increased for every 8+ shard card is way better than having to increase your deck size to 150 cards just for 2 charges. Combining that with Armor 1 is really good.

Yoss
02-02-2016, 11:16 PM
Friend of Jank Bot: If you have 150 or more cards in your deck, +2 starting charges.
One of the more eccentric racial traits, a dwarf has a little bit of extra incentive to build a larger deck. Starting with charges is one type of design space I like in a racial trait, because it has unique context within the different charge powers of each class.
Because the dwarf’s final racial trait is so powerful, we wanted a cute, lower power racial trait in this slot that would also reward a certain play-style choice. There are a few other incentives peppered around for increasing your deck size, and dwarf is one of two races that provide a little optional nudge in that direction by allowing you to efficiently overlap with those incentives.
https://www.hextcg.com/cleric-class/

redman2112
02-02-2016, 11:43 PM
Saying that Dwarf isn't free to play friendly isn't very true. Alucard used a Dwarf warrior with the Cory Challenge and used literally 0 cards from his collection, only added cards that he obtained and he already completed Devonshire. Is it going to be super easysauce? Probably not but it is doable.

On your point about Friend of Jank Bot: I created a Dwarf Warrior as my second character and he is my Jank Bot champion. When you are a Dwarf Warrior playing a Jank Bot deck it is insane. I do the free talent that gives me 7 less health and I get 2 charges. This nets me 4 starting charges which means I can use my charge power early either to deal with an early threat or just win very easily by tapping out my opponent. It works perfectly because if it did anything else it would mean the Dwarf Warrior, who i feel is one of the most OP combos, would be even more powerful. Also you are looking at talents that are on different tiers. I don't think they need to be hamstrung by the thought of should one race have a higher level ability do something better than a lower level ability.

Finally, Armor is the most OP thing in the game currently. If you don't realize how good it is you haven't seen how amazing it can be in higher level content. It truly is insane.

sukebe
02-02-2016, 11:56 PM
most of what I was going to say has already been said so I will just a little bit:

-Armor 1 is far more powerful than you give it credit for. It stops dazed, burn, toxified, and lifegain from lifelinked troops. with an incredibly strong racial trait like this it is not at all surprising their other trait is weaker than the other races starting traits. Balance is a good thing as far as I am concerned.

-It does matter that it is a level 1 skill compared to the coyotle level 15 skill. For all we know dwarves all have mid tier talents that care about having 150 cards and give bonuses for having such. Until we know more, all we are doing is making random guesses and assumptions. I don't know about you, but guessing randomly seems fairly pointless to me.

Timlagor
02-03-2016, 02:19 AM
Comparing one racial with one other racial is ridiculous.
Not character has just one racial talent.

Blessing Rod is amazing, Armour is amazing, denying Resources is amazing. One rather weak ability is no reason not to play dwarves.

Jank bot has never yet been a strong deck. He has not become one now (with any character).
100 cards might be worth doing at some point but the jump from 100 to 150 is still very big indeed.

In any case PVE content is not subject to quite the same rigours of balance.


I hope there will be a foe at some point who makes big decks worthwhile but even then Jank bot would have trouble competing with options like Pack Raptor and Totem which can start with a more concentrated deck. Most likely if we do see a strong use for Jank bot it will be on a Mercenary. More 150-deck cards and/or equipment could change this obviously.

Evilgm
02-03-2016, 03:03 AM
My question is, why the bad game design?
Just because you don't like something doesn't make it bad game design. Just because two factions get different things doesn't make it bad game design. No matter how many sentences you bold, it doesn't make it bad game design.

Friend of Jankbot has been acknowledged as weak by the designers, to compensate for the strength of other Dwarf talents. That they are designing race talents as a whole and not individually is the exact opposite of bad game design- it shows an understanding of the underlying mechanics you are quite obviously not grasping.

Sinistarlol
02-03-2016, 03:57 AM
Sorry, didn't realize you could merge every dwarf racial talent together when creating one as your champion. this is why they have a useless trait which is basically cosmic powers anyways, just with extra +5 health (which is a big deal.)

So every time I make a dwarf, I should look at that they can deny resources, they can prevent 1 damage from Armor 1, they can have troops that have steadfast from turn one. Not separately, individually every dwarf can do this. 'They're clearly the only race that has more than 3 racial talents activated at any given time. In fact, the only race that can have warrior / cleric / mage talents at the same time. Remember this when you're making a future dwarf champion everybody. Remember this.

I'm not seeing the big picture? Sounds like somebody else is also making assumptions now. I don't get the big picture of Armor 1? Really? lol > It prevents lifedrain, it prevents toxified, it prevents everything. Hell it prevents the player from making any type of action, 'cause it's way too good. (I like how you guys don't know what to say about friend of jank bot so you have to shift the balance about me bringing up armor 1 in response to somebody else from posts ago.) bravo.

no matter how many bold sentences it doesn't mean it's bad game design: Okay, making a tier 1 talent that does almost exactly what cosmic power does for a level 15 talent only with the actual health point is generic, and bad game design. You can't lie to me and say that's not bad game design.

(that's my point btw, re-design friend of jank bot) that doesn't mean it HAS to be as powerful as that talent, but jeez don't make me have to create a jank bot deck just to have access to his second only passive.

Also for the last time: "Dwarves may have awesome new mid-tier talents." and I say this to you. How? What talents are you even talking about? Surely they couldn't be class talents 'cause they're all the same for every race?

Couldn't be bothered quoting the correct people in response, but you will know who you are when reading it.

Edit: I'm almost ready to make a complete side by side comparison of racial talents of dwarves, with coyotle and we can see exactly how good they have it. i'm telling you this right now, if you don't think coyotle have an overall stronger racial talent pool then you're lying through your teeth to get your point across about armor 1. Armor 1 doesn't hold up against multiple of their racial talents from either class. ESPECIALLY not as Clerics.

Xenavire
02-03-2016, 04:19 AM
But our point is simple: the jank bot talent is allowed to be as weak (and totally optional to utilise) as it is because dwarves have access to one of the best racials in the game, plus some of the best race/class talents as well. If the jank talent was pure gold, then everyone and their grandma would be forced to play 150 card dwarf decks, simply because nothing else could touch the dwarf (and heres a hint - being literally forced to play something due to power level is bad design.)

Sinistarlol
02-03-2016, 04:31 AM
But our point is simple: the jank bot talent is allowed to be as weak (and totally optional to utilise) as it is because dwarves have access to one of the best racials in the game, plus some of the best race/class talents as well. If the jank talent was pure gold, then everyone and their grandma would be forced to play 150 card dwarf decks, simply because nothing else could touch the dwarf (and heres a hint - being literally forced to play something due to power level is bad design.)

But that's the debate, I don't want it to be a Jank Bot racial talent. I want it to be something all dwarves can use. I'm hoping they change it from being a Jank Bot related trait, so why would I want it to only improve on from there?

Okay inb4 "all dwarves can use Jank Bot." but then that makes your deck non-consistent.

I don't mind a lesser talent that ALL dwarves can utilize and not just for those who go the optional route. That's my point ultimately, I've made it pretty clear.

I have to bold things because people don't get it.. they really don't.

Why do necrotics, shin'hare, humans, list goes on have no deck restrictions but everybody complains about them sucking? Then dwarves have racial talents that restrict players into having a mind set of, want 2 charges. Okay 150 card deck time! No that's bad game design and yes, it does force you to utilise jank bot for what you should already have access to.

Again, I want them to re-design the talent as a complete overhaul I mentioned before and I'll say it again. Make it weaker, I don't care at this point. Just change the way it works currently.

Evilgm
02-03-2016, 04:56 AM
I have to bold things because people don't get it.. they really don't.


Okay then, here it goes- Just because you don't like something doesn't make it bad game design.

Sinistarlol
02-03-2016, 05:06 AM
Okay then, here it goes- Just because you don't like something doesn't make it bad game design.

You're not worth the effort mate, you're just here to get the thread closed. Not replying to you anymore.

Xenavire
02-03-2016, 06:35 AM
Let me put this plainly - if you don't like it, don't use it. As far as I can tell, you are the only person with a major beef with this entirely optional, flavourful racial, that despite being optional can still be useful against the wormoids.

Want to run 100 cards? Just run 100 cards, don't sit and whine about how you could add another 50 to get *gasp* 2 whole charges! Most people seem to like how it is now, and it doesn't bother them in the slightest to not get another buff to an already awesome race.

And lets just remind you that Elves are another powerful race that have a talent that only gives them stardust, and another high level talent that only gives them 2 charges if they pimp their deck! At least dwarves can get something tangible out of their talent right now if they so choose.

Sinistarlol
02-03-2016, 06:56 AM
Let me put this plainly - if you don't like it, don't use it. As far as I can tell, you are the only person with a major beef with this entirely optional, flavourful racial, that despite being optional can still be useful against the wormoids.

Want to run 100 cards? Just run 100 cards, don't sit and whine about how you could add another 50 to get *gasp* 2 whole charges! Most people seem to like how it is now, and it doesn't bother them in the slightest to not get another buff to an already awesome race.

And lets just remind you that Elves are another powerful race that have a talent that only gives them stardust, and another high level talent that only gives them 2 charges if they pimp their deck! At least dwarves can get something tangible out of their talent right now if they so choose.

My problem is I want to use it. But the restriction makes that hard, and if I have to level up in order to have no restrictions than why not just go with coyotle? I think you're really starting to misunderstand what I'm even typing.. since it doesn't add up to anything I've written previously.

If I don't like it, It's not about me not wanting to use it. It's about what could we exchange this useless requirement of making a 150 card deck for a measly 2 charge power advantage for something that could be minor but be a passive.

Get it? Passive > Requirement

So let's break down your example. Elves get stardust, and a higher level talent grants 2 charges. BUT DO THEY HAVE REQUIREMENTS?

No. They might not be useful with any particular deck, but they're friggen passives that don't require a 150 card deck.

How come dwarves get one good racial but then punished on the other passive. "It's too good! Let's make a restrictive secondary passive 'cause yeah, that'll help balance out that single reduction passive."

One day the posters will grasp what I'm talking about, there's only hope.

Edit: Even though there cards need to be alternate art, or extended art.. this doesn't hurt their consistency with their deck. It provides a bonus to those who play a lot and have a lot of investment towards that deck.

wolzarg
02-03-2016, 07:11 AM
I solved their flaw in game design they should give dwarfs two talents that give half a armor each this is way better and also more interesting and flavorful.

Sarcasm aside i see where you are coming from but not every talent needs to be equally good for everyone. Look at the necrotic talent that makes you play 40 shards in a deck to get full effect from it and that full effect is a measly 5 hp. The one armor passive is absolutely strong enough to negate the downside of the very specific jankbot talent but i get the impression your problem is with the talent slot being "wasted" not with the overall power balance of the races. This i can't agree with if they can balance a race to have a single talent and still be on par with the rest i wouldn't care.

Xenavire
02-03-2016, 07:12 AM
So your complaint boils down to "I want 2 free charges, but I don't have enough good cards to make it worth it!"

Have you considered that this passive may be very, very good late in the campaign after all the deck restrictions are lifted? We have only a segment of the pie right now, no need to go back and say we should be using raspberries instead of blueberries. Dwarf is already very very good without that passive. If you want to use that passive right now, then you have to make some sacrifices.

Can we stop this argument now? Because if this goes any further, I am going to report you to the OCD police ;) (Sorry, trying to lighten the mood.)

Svenn
02-03-2016, 08:35 AM
Dwarf:


Racial Talents

Friend of Jank Bot: You begin the game with 2 charges if you have more than 150 cards in your deck.

Stone Body: You have Armor 1 (Armor refreshes each turn, absorbs one point of damage for each point, and is removed first before any health is lost)

Master Artificer (Level 15): At the start of game create a random Artifact and put it into your hand. +1 maximum hand size.


Coyotle:


Children of the Zodiac: You begin the game with a Zodiac Blessing in your deck or two if you have 100+ cards in your deck. Your Cleric talents that modify your Blessings also affect your Zodiac Blessings. This card changes with the Zodiac.

Here are the current list of Zodiac Blessings (all Quick actions):

Zodiac Dream: Cost (0), Gain 0 health, Draw a card, Create a random Coyotle with cost (2) or less and put it into play
Zodiac Observer: Cost (0), Gain 0 health. Draw two cards
Zodiac Plainsrunner: Cost (0), Gain 8 health. Draw a card
Zodiac Sands: Cost (0), Gain 0 health, Draw a card, Take an additional turn after this one

NOTE - Need more information to determine what, if any, conditions determine which Zodiac Blessing you begin with at the start of a match

Wisdom: +1 talent point

Cosmic Powers (Level 15): You begin the game with +5 health and 2 charges if you have more than 100 cards in your deck.


Comparing the level 15 talents, you have one that requires a 100+ card deck versus one that just gives you an artifact at the start of every single game.

Comparing talents overall, Armor (which prevents 1 damage EVERY TURN, since I'm not sure you realize that) and a free extra card in your starting hand every game seems way better than a talent point and a Blessing you may never see. The 100/150+ talents are obviously better for Coyotle, but that doesn't make up for the extra stuff dwarf gets.

Dwarf class talents:


Race-Class Combo Talents

Cleric
Blessing Rod: Begin the game with a Blessing Rod in play.

Bulwark Guild Membership (Level 30): Begin the game with a Turreted Wall in play if you're fighting a boss encounter.

Warrior
Electro-Stun Weaponry: If you Battle a champion, that champion can’t replenish their resources next turn.

Utility Belt (Level 30): You have +1 consumable slot.

Mage
Learn Spell: Technomorph: [5 SP] Transform target troop into a random Artifact.

Shared Research (Level 30): Mercenaries have +1 starting health for each talent you've unlocked in the same row as the Knowledge is Power talent row.

Coyotle class talents


Race-Class Combo Talents

Cleric
Blessed by the Sun: Your Children of the Zodiac racial trait grants you twice as many Zodiac Blessings.

Medicine Man (Level 30) : When you use a consumable, gain 3 health and draw a card.


Warrior
War Path: +1 starting health for each encounter you’ve defeated in a dungeon run.

Pack Leader (Level 30): War Path also affects mercenaries.

Mage
Learn Spell: Tornado: [7 SP] Deal between 0 and 3 damage to each non-Coyotle, non-Elemental troop

Balanced Mind (Level 30): Your Balance talent cost 2 fewer talent points to unlock.


Dwarf wins Cleric, hands down. Start with a Blessing Rod/Turreted Wall in play versus an extra Blessing that you still may never see and a bonus if you happen to use a consumable.

Coyotle might win Warrior, just for the health bonus. However, the Electro Stun can be really powerful. Consumable slot could be okay, but we don't have those yet so it's hard to know.

Mage is a tough call. Both have spells that are not incredibly consistent. I'd say Tornado wins there as it COULD be a board wipe for you. Extra health for mercenaries could be really nice. Don't know what the Balance talent is yet? Hard to know how good that will be.

So, I'd say they are pretty balanced.

Vorpal
02-03-2016, 09:08 AM
All the thresholds for 'big deck' need to be at 100.

The reason for this is that if you do make a 150 card deck, suddenly your deck is far too diluted compared to the 100 card decks - and you aren't getting any additional cards to help out.

2 blessings in a 60 card deck.
4 blessings in a 100 card deck.
4 blessings in a 150 card deck - your chance of drawing a blessing is worse than in the 60 card deck.

This is true for every talent or ability that scales per cards in your deck but tops out at 100. Going to 150 severely reduces the power of those abilities.

Evilgm
02-03-2016, 09:11 AM
I would have liked to see those talents be "for every 50 cards in your deck" instead.

Xenavire
02-03-2016, 09:22 AM
All the thresholds for 'big deck' need to be at 100.

The reason for this is that if you do make a 150 card deck, suddenly your deck is far too diluted compared to the 100 card decks - and you aren't getting any additional cards to help out.

2 blessings in a 60 card deck.
4 blessings in a 100 card deck.
4 blessings in a 150 card deck - your chance of drawing a blessing is worse than in the 60 card deck.

This is true for every talent or ability that scales per cards in your deck but tops out at 100. Going to 150 severely reduces the power of those abilities.

How you build your deck is up to you - if you choose to get those extra 2 charges, you get 4 blessings t1, plus another 4 t2. 8 blessings in a 150 card deck by t2 beats 4 blessings at roughly the same time.

The issue is diminishing returns - the longer a game takes, the more the 150 card deck is going to suffer, which is obviously something a player needs to consider during deckbuilding. But no-one is forced to utilise it.

sukebe
02-03-2016, 01:38 PM
I solved their flaw in game design they should give dwarfs two talents that give half a armor each this is way better and also more interesting and flavorful.

Sarcasm aside i see where you are coming from but not every talent needs to be equally good for everyone. Look at the necrotic talent that makes you play 40 shards in a deck to get full effect from it and that full effect is a measly 5 hp. The one armor passive is absolutely strong enough to negate the downside of the very specific jankbot talent but i get the impression your problem is with the talent slot being "wasted" not with the overall power balance of the races. This i can't agree with if they can balance a race to have a single talent and still be on par with the rest i wouldn't care.

I know this is a bit off topic but I keep seeing this on these forums. the necrotic do not gain bonus health for having shards in their deck, they gain life for having 8 cards of each shard in their deck. So having 4 iddi and 4 defiler of the fallen will net you 2 health just from those 8 cards.

On Topic: I have nothing more to add as my previous post has yet to be refuted by the op.

Svenn
02-03-2016, 01:43 PM
I know this is a bit off topic but I keep seeing this on these forums. the necrotic do not gain bonus health for having shards in their deck, they gain life for having 8 cards of each shard in their deck. So having 4 iddi and 4 defiler of the fallen will net you 2 health just from those 8 cards.

On Topic: I have nothing more to add as my previous post has yet to be refuted by the op.

Then that talent is worded very poorly.

Xzaron
02-03-2016, 02:04 PM
Armor (which prevents 1 damage EVERY TURN, since I'm not sure you realize that)

I really don't think you got this. It is a HUGE boon in almost every encounter.
The second thing that you haven't been focusing on but what if you don't want to play a coyotle deck thats 100+ cards? You nitpick something about dwarves that is optional and is level 1.... yet you don't have a problem with a level 15 potentially being useless because you run less than 100 cards?

Vorpal
02-03-2016, 02:30 PM
The problem is that going from 60 to 100 gets you benefits and scaling in ALL the 'insert card' abilities, but going to 150 for jankbot promptly removes those benefits.

Sinistarlol
02-03-2016, 03:35 PM
You nitpick something about dwarves that is optional and is level 1.... yet you don't have a problem with a level 15 potentially being useless because you run less than 100 cards?

Don't get me wrong, I like options. It's just annoying that if I don't go the 'optional' route with Dwarves, I miss out on a passive from the beginning.

Only thing is Cosmic powers will always prove more useful when it comes to having over a 60 card deck as it is currently.

So why make Dwarves have this idea that they have something good going for them due to Friend of Jank Bot if a superior talent unlocks for the coyotle at level 15. I'm not looking at this at low level, but end game.

You can make a 60 card deck, 110 card deck, 150 card deck(s) and still have almost every passive accessible from 0-30 to you with any other race. Why does dwarves have to be tied to Jank Bot that is a special-building card like somebody else pointed out posts ago that has no relevance to dwarves?

And even then, 150 card deck means less consistency then a 100 card deck. So let's say a coyotle goes with a 100 card deck only just to get the additional boon @ level 15. That's still a 50 card difference with Friend of Jank Bot that only does 1/3rd of what this talent does.

Why should I have to make the decision when deck-building to either forcibly go the optional route for 2 charges, or don't go the optional route playing with only one of 2 passives actively working. Then this is the new debate, why is it okay to have a choice between the two when every other racial trait with the other alliances don't have to make that decision. Why is it okay to acknowledge that okay, fine you don't want to use Jank Bot as a dwarf so you're stuck with armor 1 which people think is so good you shouldn't have a secondary passive.

If Armor 1 is so good, then re-work it on dwarves so you can make another half decent passive for dwarves to utilise without the idea of Jank Bot being involved.

That's what I'm talking about, this isn't about Armor 1 or the overall utility dwarves may have depending on your classes. This is purely about racial talents, a good one and a complete 'optional' one unlike any other alliance.

I'd like to ask, who here made a dwarf that didn't include the 150 card Jank Bot? I know I haven't as of yet, so I already have a disadvantage in terms of utility when going out into battle. Armor 1 is strong, but I don't like this idea of it being so good so we make a heavy restrictive secondary passive that probably won't get used often or ever by most players.

It doesn't matter if you can say necotic, or humans have worse talents. Those are persistent and don't involve a deck restriction. Besides, they're not that bad.. better then not having a secondary passive not even working 'cause you don't have a big enough deck to take into PVE.

Edit: Also I like the idea of every race having incentives to build 100 / 150 card decks! But why are dwarves heavily lacking when it comes to this type of unique talent? Especially since Jank Bot actually requires a 150 card deck for 2 charges unlike somebody else who can construct just a 100 card deck without him and get 5 health points on top of that which is the equivalent of anywhere of 2-5 turns of Armor 1.

I'm not trying to be a douche or shut people down, I just want to understand why nobody thinks it isn't bad game design? If we can see that it sucks, why not speak up and voice our opinions about it.. or talk about Armor 1 being too good, rendering dwarves only having one passive to look forward to when creating the character.

Xexist
02-03-2016, 03:48 PM
After seeing how you flip out over everyone having the opposite opinion of you, I will pass on the invite to the youtube channel thanks.

Miyordon
02-03-2016, 03:55 PM
The other thing you seemed to have missed from your rant about thinking end game. They said in the article the dwarf passive you hate was weak, not because of the armor, which we mostly agree is strong, but because of the final passive. We have no idea the strength of a consumable slot, but CZE seems to think it is better than most.

Sinistarlol
02-03-2016, 04:01 PM
After seeing how you flip out over everyone having the opposite opinion of you, I will pass on the invite to the youtube channel thanks.

After seeing you have zero input after my post I think you just wanted to post something irrelevant to the fact I shut down your response.

You're the first to sit here and say I'm being negative about having a open forum discussion about how I feel about a particular talent. Just wow.. you made my day sir.

Tazelbain
02-03-2016, 04:06 PM
Feels like this power at the very least should let you play 4 jankbots regardless of the grid.

Sinistarlol
02-03-2016, 04:09 PM
The other thing you seemed to have missed from your rant about thinking end game. They said in the article the dwarf passive you hate was weak, not because of the armor, which we mostly agree is strong, but because of the final passive. We have no idea the strength of a consumable slot, but CZE seems to think it is better than most.

Finally somebody making sense to me and actually relaying information about why they gave such a weak talent to dwarves. Thank you!

Xenavire
02-03-2016, 04:23 PM
This is bordering on ridiculous... Armor is worth at least a talent points worth of power alone, and it is far from the only good racial it gets. There are some very clear reasons why this other racial is so weak, stop raging about it.

Sinistarlol
02-03-2016, 04:28 PM
This is bordering on ridiculous... Armor is worth at least a talent points worth of power alone, and it is far from the only good racial it gets. There are some very clear reasons why this other racial is so weak, stop raging about it.

Please stop putting words in my mouth. I'm not even raging, I'm having a open discussion, if you enter into a thread talking about how we could re-work useless talents as raging than do yourself a favour and not enter them in the future. That's all I'm posting in this thread, too many people getting "angry" and attacking what I've written, if anything I could apply ''raging'' to some of the other commenters here.

"So much for a great community, aye?"

sukebe
02-03-2016, 05:59 PM
Please stop putting words in my mouth. I'm not even raging, I'm having a open discussion, if you enter into a thread talking about how we could re-work useless talents as raging than do yourself a favour and not enter them in the future. That's all I'm posting in this thread, too many people getting "angry" and attacking what I've written, if anything I could apply ''raging'' to some of the other commenters here.

"So much for a great community, aye?"

many of us (including xen) have pointed out over and over again why it is the ability is weak, you just brush us aside/ignore us. You are ranting, not discussing. you have failed to counter anyone's points that have been brought up in this thread (ignoring them or saying they don't matter is not countering them).

Is the jank bot ability less good than others? yes
Are there several good reasons for that? yes (see this thread for a good list)
are there other races with abilities we don't care for? yes

TL: DR: until you treat other peoples responses properly and either accept or refute them you are ranting. there is nothing wrong with dwarves getting a sub par racial talent as their other racial talents (armor for sure, level 15 abilities likely useful but no way to know for sure).

UmberEternus
02-03-2016, 06:05 PM
Since you asked, I've made a Ruby artifact Dwarf (as my 2nd char since i love shin'hare no matter what the talents :P) that utilizes only 60 cards, noticing ahead of what we get in dwarf compared to other classes, since it is ruby and aggroish

I wanted to stick to 60, for consistency, that racial talents i have by 30 will far out-way my other characters even if one isn't being utilized, but that same talent will be very nice in my sapphire dwarf deck i'm planning to make later, to go along with the other talents

You can't compare one talent to another, because all the talents as a whole make up each character, it's not like you only get to chose one of the talents (and even if you did you could just chose the one that means the most to you)

Seshia
02-03-2016, 06:55 PM
You seem to have made 2 total arguments. First: The Dwarf level 1 passive "Friend of Jankbot" is bad game design because it is objectively worse in 2 ways than the Coyotle level 15 passive "Cosmic Power." It is true that Cosmic Power is better than Friend of Jankbot, but this is taking the wrong perspective I feel. In a TCG, like Hex, do you say "Oh man, my opponent just played a counter-spell. It's going to be easy to win because he has nothing but counter-spells in his deck?" Everything in a TCG is a combination of elements, so looking at one element in a vacuum is pretty against the ideas of the entire genre.

Secondly, you argue that this makes Coyotle, not Dwarves, the premier Jankbot faction. I have honestly felt that way for a while. Coyotle have a lot of ability to search through the deck and pull out specific cards, thus negating a big problem with jankbot. I have often found this odd, but always just shrugged and said "Not all robots are under the control of the Dwarves."

As a side note, you have taken a VERY sarcastic and hostile tone with people who are simply trying to get you to hear their arguments. I understand that people initially misunderstood your primary argument to be about the overall design of the dwarf, and I understand that is frustrating to us, but understand that when you disregard what people are saying as being "not relevant" and then use the same talking points but reversed to talk about why coyotle is better in general, it will be very frustrating for us as well.

Timlagor
02-03-2016, 07:00 PM
None of my dwarves use Jank bot or more than 60 cards.

I said before that Jank bot is still weak -most people agree and won't use it (even if they could get 4 of anything).

Nothing else you said seems to merit a response.

Sinistarlol
02-03-2016, 07:52 PM
most of what I was going to say has already been said so I will just a little bit:

-Armor 1 is far more powerful than you give it credit for. It stops dazed, burn, toxified, and lifegain from lifelinked troops. with an incredibly strong racial trait like this it is not at all surprising their other trait is weaker than the other races starting traits. Balance is a good thing as far as I am concerned.

-It does matter that it is a level 1 skill compared to the coyotle level 15 skill. For all we know dwarves all have mid tier talents that care about having 150 cards and give bonuses for having such. Until we know more, all we are doing is making random guesses and assumptions. I don't know about you, but guessing randomly seems fairly pointless to me.


On Topic: I have nothing more to add as my previous post has yet to be refuted by the op.


many of us (including xen) have pointed out over and over again why it is the ability is weak, you just brush us aside/ignore us. You are ranting, not discussing. you have failed to counter anyone's points that have been brought up in this thread (ignoring them or saying they don't matter is not countering them).

Is the jank bot ability less good than others? yes
Are there several good reasons for that? yes (see this thread for a good list)
are there other races with abilities we don't care for? yes

TL: DR: until you treat other peoples responses properly and either accept or refute them you are ranting. there is nothing wrong with dwarves getting a sub par racial talent as their other racial talents (armor for sure, level 15 abilities likely useful but no way to know for sure).

If talents are better because of levels.
If talents have a power creep internal design, then there will be meta(s) and nothing will come down to ultimately you playing the way you want to play once co-op content is introduced. People will kick anybody out that doesn't follow a strict guide of how to play their champion(s) the way the "guide of how to play cleric's the best" said so. I really hope what you said isn't true, because if talents have a higher power curve depending on your level, then that's going to be scary for HEX once more talents open up when playing in this MMO.

(Thus, having access to more talent points would be the way to go.)

Chances are, if you were ignored it would be because you didn't have anything to say besides Armor 1 and not the main culprit at hand [Friend of Jank Bot]. If you follow through each post I made, question yourself. Did I attack anybody right off the bat? Did I ask people to view the thread just to comment how lucky they are for not visiting my Youtube channel 'cause I apparently am attacking everybody? Did I ask people to attack the fact I was bolding important parts of any of my posts and used this to annoy me in irrelevant posts made?

Then you have the audacity to comment about I'm ignoring your posts and others. Read through each post I've made and tell me - did I do anything wrong initially? Did I make you feel angry? I'm sorry if somebody can't take the word(s) bad game design without assuming I'm raging so hard over a forum topic. Maybe there's something I've written that is completely taken out of context of just general discussion. Hmm, maybe that one paragraph post where I was defending myself against posters taking my responses literally like i was personally punching their faces.

When in actuality, all I was doing was encouraging more posts and happly replying back to give my opinions based on your opinions. That's apparently so hard to achieve nowadays. Be warned when making comments such as "oh this sucks, i think they could do better." because you'd literally have to deal with a barrage of posters questioning your credibility based on how they feel with a single good trait out performing the rest of the tool kit. If this is the case, then just remove the secondary passive entirely and allow dwarves to only have stone skin. Why not?

If you're going to commit then make sure to post in response how I could even reply to what you previously wrote to 'refute' anything.. and the other posts while you're at it. I'd love to see it! =)

Btw, to remind everybody here.. i'm the bad guy, don't worry about any of the personal attacks outside of what should have been a respectable forum discussion. You guys are madness. Especially Xenavire who should be more careful about how he interacts with the forums with his QA tester badge and 13,000 posts. Dude almost scared me away from the forums. I even said to the guy that I respected his status and went on to give my opinion from his response to the very next poster critiquing that i make too large of posts and refusing to listen to what they're saying which is literally this: ''you have armor 1 deal with the fact you don't need 2 passives as a dwarf." but then xenavire the guy who I thought was okay to actually engage back with in response took it like I am raging hard as well so that didn't help. I feel like you all know each other and just came to bash on the fact that dwarves are too good according to your perspectives.

Anyways, that's all I have to say. You can all continue to bash on whatever I wrote and take it like I literally stabbed you in the heart - which is quite funny because I was really enjoying the opinions being thrown around and liking peoples opinions on dwarves in general even if it 'appeared' to come across like I was shutting you down or making you feel like I was ignoring you when all I was doing was making thoughtful posts that mainly got ignored and nitpicked by newcomers to the thread taking one thing out of context to use against me to provoke arguments.

Xenavire
02-03-2016, 08:42 PM
Sinisterlol, sukebe had it completely right - your stance this is entire thread was to reiterate your same tired points regardless of the fact others had raised good points against them, and seeming very nearly hostile in more than one reply. If that isn't raging, I apologise, but that is a very easy mistake to make. As it stands, I made several attempts to end what I perceived as nothing short of vitriol in a peaceful manner, and you kept on going.

You should absolutely check your own wording and attitude before placing blame at anyone elses door, because you literally started all of this. If no malice was intended, then I apologise, but I don't feel that this thread lead to any proper discussion, just ignored points.

Sinistarlol
02-03-2016, 09:40 PM
Sinisterlol, sukebe had it completely right - your stance this is entire thread was to reiterate your same tired points regardless of the fact others had raised good points against them, and seeming very nearly hostile in more than one reply. If that isn't raging, I apologise, but that is a very easy mistake to make. As it stands, I made several attempts to end what I perceived as nothing short of vitriol in a peaceful manner, and you kept on going.

You should absolutely check your own wording and attitude before placing blame at anyone elses door, because you literally started all of this. If no malice was intended, then I apologise, but I don't feel that this thread lead to any proper discussion, just ignored points.

Just make sure to quote and match where I ignored your points. Thank you!

Xenavire
02-03-2016, 10:03 PM
You have ignored so much of my discussion points that quoting them would be an act of futility, so let me bullet point this for you:

-My points about other races racials being very powerful and having near useless racials paired to them for balance (about the only thing you ever commented about was Armor, despite me making some very good points about other races.)
-You ignored/brushed off my points about the Coyotles base passives being largely uninteresting and rather weak, making a good racial later a good thing for that race (not detracting from the other races.)
-You repeatedly ignored me pointing out it was optional (not even bother to acknowledge the point past "oh I want to use it") and being rather belligerent about it at the same time.

And I am sure I have overlooked a few things. Now, I could forgive you for overlooking the things I brought up only one time, but I brought up the fact it is completely optional multiple times and you basically ignored me.

Sorry, but I can't really take you seriously in a discussion when you aren't actually discussing the things brought to the discussion. Hence why I consider your posts, by and large, to be rant posts directing hate at a passive you simply don't like.

So I will reiterate - don't like it? Don't use it. Pretend it isn't there. Don't wage war on a forum over it (and yes, that is exactly how your posts have come across, intended or not, and I am not the only one to have mentioned this.)

Sinistarlol
02-03-2016, 10:24 PM
Armor is amazing.
Besides, Jank bot isn't a dwarf card. It's a special deckbuilding card, and you can choose to build with it however you want. If you prefer a race, go for it. It doesn't mean that race/class combo is going to be flawless with Jabk Bot


But because the passive is there to entice players to construct Jank Bot decks on Dwarfs this is a problem. It'll be like dwarves having the incentive to make non artifact decks filled with another race. They then gain benefits from using that other race, who has a similar passive but isn't quite as strong, leaving you thinking ''Why are dwarves getting better benefits from this particular race / card then the race who SHOULD benefit the most from it"

It's not that exaggerated, okay I know. but that's the point.

Because that passive exists, it has to be critiqued. That's why I'm nitpicking about Jank Bot specifically due to Friend of Jank Bot's passive being underwhelmed in comparison to a coyotle talent at level 15.


You are treating this subjective topic far too much like Coyotle are masters of Entrath. The fact of the matter is that Coyotles have the one of the least interesting racials (oh yay, a talent point.) Frankly with the grid limiting choices I couldn't be bothered with a deck over 60 right now, and +1 talent point is nice and all, but lacks the unique impact of the other races racials (Armor, +2/0 resources when battling an opponent, etc.) Also, the Coyotle mage spell is just terrible - sure, potential board wipe is nice, but potential whiff just makes it a gamble not worth taking imo.

I'll admit their blessing is neat, but I am not sold on all the different effects... I'll take consistent any day.


I respect you a lot Xenavire.

I'll break it down with exactly what my problem is. Dwarves are not free-to-play friendly. First of all, you'd need to own a Jank Bot or make a 150 card deck without him just to get 2 charges in the beginning of your game. This is definitely not game changing what so ever

Also don't underestimate + talent points, those can be extremely useful. The races with such said talents may actually be the strongest in late game so watch out for that.

My main problem is that they're pushing for dwarf players to go for that 150 deck for something as underwhelming as 2 charge points. I'd prefer them to say, "okay Coyotle at level 15 will have the advantage of Jank Bot so let's re-work Friend of Jank Bot so it doesn't have to involve a 150 card deck." I'd be happy.

Even if it was just a single charge without the restriction of going over 60 cards, I'd be extremely happy. But again, the reason why I'm fighting this is because THEY intended dwarves to play with Jank Bots based on their talent design. So with that in mind, would you level a dwarf with the intentions of playing with Jank Bot's "Friend of Jank Bot" passive; or "Cosmic Powers".

So because it's encouraging players like myself to construct a deck (AS WE SPEAK) around Jank Bot then I have a problem with that. The restrictive grid is a problem with this as well. as you mentioned.

It was never about coyotle having better talents overall, just that the current version of this beginner talent is worthless without a Jank Bot and even then, sucks quite frankly.

Coyotle may have questionable talent decisions according to you, but your talents are accessible to whatever type of deck you might have from the get-go. So you can take advantage of having actual passives just by playing that race, where as Dwarves have requirements mainly with RNG abilities thrown into the mix.

Passives are actual passives for most races, dwarves only have 1 accessible passive without having to go past the 60 card limit. That's my problem. Too many restrictions even with the passive effects.

I hope that makes it clear as possible for readers. TLDR; Friend of Jank Bot needs to be re-worked due to other races having similar but superior passives accessible at later levels.

Care to explain how this isn't addressing your points in a non-angrily way? I want to see what you come up with next.

Skirovik
02-03-2016, 10:29 PM
This thread is pretty funny. Xen, I feel for you man. OP has blinkers on. I read the thread from start to finish in one sitting and I can tell you the above post (from sinistarlol) is not exactly how the last 6 pages have gone down.

Sinistarlol
02-03-2016, 10:32 PM
This thread is pretty funny. Xen, I feel for you man. OP has blinkers on. I read the thread from start to finish in one sitting and I can tell you the above post (from sinistarlol) is not exactly how the last 6 pages have gone down.

Then share how I was rude to these people by all means. Hell fill inbetween where I didn't. I want you to.

The point of those posts was showing how I supposedly ignored Xenavire's points. I like how you didn't even catch on to the quotes pulled from 6 pages ago.

Sinistarlol
02-03-2016, 10:36 PM
Get all your friends online, it won't save you; because everything is documented and so long as you sit here and lie about me never addressing any of your points made throughout your posts in this thread I too will be laughing at this, along with the rest of you guys. are. :)

I'll be brave enough to stand up against the big poster bully, don't worry guys.

Maylick
02-03-2016, 11:10 PM
Dude, you're a jerk and a troll.

The only point that you've proven so far in this thread ^

Sinistarlol
02-03-2016, 11:15 PM
Dude, you're a jerk and a troll.

The only point that you've proven so far in this thread ^

Look out, I'm a troll for critiquing a talent that nobody else seems to think is a waste of talent space. Yeah okay, you must be able to sleep at night typing something like that and not even viewing the discussion from my perspective vs whoever else's perspective you read.

Maylick
02-03-2016, 11:25 PM
I'm totally good at night, thanks.
Maybe it's because I'm not making threads where people are trying to help you, while you just straightly pissing them off. As you said, no one else is having problem with this. Everyone tryed to discuss this with you, but you just keep whatever you have in mind going. I honestly think that what do you do, how do you play, what parts of game make you happy and unhappy is your own business.
But don't you dare to mock good people around here just for your own twisted satisfaction. They are sincerely trying to make gaming experience better for you.

Sinistarlol
02-03-2016, 11:35 PM
I'm totally good at night, thanks.
Maybe it's because I'm not making threads where people are trying to help you, while you just straightly pissing them off. As you said, no one else is having problem with this. Everyone tryed to discuss this with you, but you just keep whatever you have in mind going. I honestly think that what do you do, how do you play, what parts of game make you happy and unhappy is your own buiseness.
But don't you dare to mock good people around here just for your own twisted satisfaction. They are sincerely trying to make gaming experience better for you.

This will be the first official time I actually say this, but get out of here. I'm totally having fun with this too, this is the best community ever isn't it? Definitely not proved time and time again the false claims of what I supposedly done wrong, but F#%k that, let's ride on the fact that he was told something and he being a human being wanted to add on what was said from other players.


So from that point on we had this hatred outlook on him like he was all angry and raging because he was commenting back on what was typed by us. What a jerk that guy is. All this is solidifying right now is how deluded this community is especially when they're perceiving themselves as the best community ever. I won't take that away from the heavy contributors like Hex_Colin etc.

So you're basically saying this. I say "how was your morning today?" you respond to this, with a followed open discussion about what you done. Now here's the twist, i felt like you're biting off more than you can chew, all I asked for was how was your morning not your life story. Okay, settle down you're becoming a rager - oh nope okay, you're in the wrong. Time to point out what you did wrong. You never mentioned to me how was your day, only your life story. I felt like I am being disrespected.

That is exactly what has happened, none of you guys came in expecting me to have more opinions after you shared your opinions. You didn't like it, so plan B. Let's say he never contributed to any of our comments about other racial talents and/or anything we even said!

Good point - we can then single him out whenever he makes a post and say he ignored everybody posts because why not? Oh damn, he has evidence here of him actually pointing out things we said.. but oh well, everybody here has "blinkers on" so they won't notice. :P

Just stop replying, literally because I've made it my objective to sit here and comment on new comments. It's more fun than HEX currently anyways. That's my opinion, don't shoot me down and enforce me to like your opinions and twist it like I never cared about what you said. To all of you. =)

Maylick
02-03-2016, 11:46 PM
Trying to shut me down, huh?


Just stop replying, literally because I've made it my objective to sit here and comment on new comments.

Well, don't be shy, just admit that you did it long time ago. When you didn't expect us to have more opinions after you shared your opinion. You didn't like it, so plan B. Let's say we never contributed to any of your comments about other racial talents and/or anything you even said!

Sinistarlol
02-03-2016, 11:53 PM
Trying to shut me down, huh?



Well, don't be shy, just admit that you did it long time ago. When you didn't expect us to have more opinions after you shared your opinion. You didn't like it, so plan B. Let's say we never contributed to any of your comments about other racial talents and/or anything you even said!

What am I admitting? Please make constructive sentences mate. Why is half of my comment included with something that makes zero sense when put in context together.

Maylick
02-04-2016, 12:02 AM
Good effort, mate. We both know that you are only asking questions to keep attention focused on yourself.
Just like you did, when you posed yourself as a brave opressed guy, who fights the cruel and savage community. Might be better, if there would be more people here, not just me talking to you, heh?)
I must say you did pretty good job earlier with all that word juggling to keep thread going. It won't last long, tho. I believe few more pages of this nonsense have to happen to make it closed for good.

Sinistarlol
02-04-2016, 12:08 AM
Good effort, mate. We both know that you are only asking questions to keep attention focused on yourself.
Just like you did, when you posed yourself as a brave opressed guy, who fights the cruel and savage community. Might be better, if there would be more people here, not just me talking to you, heh?)
I must say you did pretty good job earlier with all that word juggling to keep thread going. It won't last long, tho. I believe few more pages of this nonsense have to happen to make it closed for good.

Yeah, then I will start a new thread and continue the cycle until I get banned because I wouldn't be missing out on anything good. I'm acting like the guy you perceived me as when you entered this thread, now you want me to stop? Awuh, doesn't work like that 'cause I'm now purposefully acting like a jerk to all and anybody in hoping you were put into the same situation I was in. I want to provoke the same reactions like the rest have done earlier in order for me to get into this mind state.

You're not leaving are you? That won't help anything..it'll just leave me awaiting for the next poster. That'll suck, might take a while. Here I was wanting to play HEX and enjoy a positive open forum about what could be tagged as "suggestive" in order to help the lacking dwarf passive but nah, I'm not allowing that anymore. Well never mind, you guys were the one that didn't actually allow that. I'm just ending what you guys started.

Maylick
02-04-2016, 12:19 AM
Yeah, you are totally right, that's the best part. I don't want you to stop. Not untill this thread will be closed and buried.
Thanks for doing all the leg work, that's really sweet of you)



P.S. Gosh, you really need to keep "I want to provoke" phrases and whole "I was just trolling" attitude as a last resort, not fire it up straight away. Come on, where's the fun in that?

Sinistarlol
02-04-2016, 12:21 AM
Yeah, you are totally right, that's the best part. I don't want you to stop. Not untill this thread will be closed and buried.
Thanks for doing all the leg work, that's really sweet of you)



P.S. Gosh, you really need to keep "I want to provoke" phrases and whole "I was just trolling" attitude as a last resort, not fire it up straight away. Come on, where's the fun in that?

Best part is people on these forums will see you as a fuel to the fire type of person. In other words, encouraging troll behaviour and being one yourself with name calling may I add.

You had zero input into this thread and the first sentence was "You're a jerk and a troll." I can see you making it into the exclusive Lion's Share guild or maybe you already are apart of that guild. Should go and apply I think you'd make a good addition.

Especially with how the Guild Master is, lol.

Maylick
02-04-2016, 12:34 AM
Woah, you are really giving up, aren't you? You didn't even checked for my previous messages. You already made your special quote-and-avoid-subject thing with my first post here and you don't even remember. That's cold man, that's very cold.

And please, you can do better. At least don't give me credit for a name calling while you are blaming some guild and guildmaster. Not at the same post.

Timlagor
02-04-2016, 04:39 AM
https://xkcd.com/386/

wolzarg
02-04-2016, 04:58 AM
I'm not going to claim you are right or wrong in this thread sinistarlol but i will point out you are currently flailing around throwing torches near and around bridges. There is no point in me "threatening" to not watch your youtube because i so rarely watch hex content that it is pointless. But you are currently chasing away a lot of people and i can't imagine anyone reading this thread watching your videos in the future.

I say this with absolute sincerity and no hostility towards you at this point so i hope you can keep this in mind should you post more in this thread.

Xenavire
02-04-2016, 05:25 AM
Well this did not go as I expected...

Sinisterlol, first of all, I have no allegiance with any of the people that have posted beyond us all being forum posters. I haven't asked friends to come and post, nor have any of them ever approached me to be a part of my guild. They have clearly come purely based on the content of your posts which have become increasingly vitriolic as you have continued to reply.

Now...

The things you quoted do not actually cover anything. You quoted my mention of Jank Bot the card and didn't even adress the point at all in your quoted response, you just twisted my words to say that it was bad to have a racial for 150 cards, and then compared it (once again and quite incorrectly) to a level 15 racial capstone.

The second quote of mine there was clearly talking about how some races have powerful racials with much weaker passives (I brought up the elves specifically) and rather than discuss what I was actually talking about, you honed in on specific lines, brushed them away using opinion and hand waving, and turned it back into a rant post about how a level 15 racial capstone beats an intentionally weak level 1 racial.

Now, not only did you essentially ignore half of what I said (as evidenced by YOUR CHOSEN QUOTES) by cherry picking what you wanted to reply to, you also made some serious factual errors (the +2 charges can actually have a huge impact, as a dwarf warrior can start the game with 4 charges, and it has a battle that locks the opponent down for an entire turn. For mages it is also decent, as it allows for a t1 draw/discard or potentially a transform (want a chance at a megahulk t1? It is possible.) Even getting 4 blessings in the first turn can be helpful.

As for your 'angry' posts, I don't think I have to point them out given the last 2 pages of pure vitriol towards a community that just so happened to disagree with you, and you basically goaded into 'attacking' you.

Salverus
02-04-2016, 11:50 AM
So i was just playing as a dwarf cleric and my reese made a jankbot and i can tell you that it was horrible.
I would never recommand anyone using this combo.
All the jankbot was doing was pulling 3 blessings from the deck with cost 0 that were played for free, then you draw 3 cards but those go to your hand. So the entire effect from jankbot has been made completely useless with all these blessings and if a jankbot attacks its just a simple draw 3.

Xenavire
02-04-2016, 12:44 PM
So i was just playing as a dwarf cleric and my reese made a jankbot and i can tell you that it was horrible.
I would never recommand anyone using this combo.
All the jankbot was doing was pulling 3 blessings from the deck with cost 0 that were played for free, then you draw 3 cards but those go to your hand. So the entire effect from jankbot has been made completely useless with all these blessings and if a jankbot attacks its just a simple draw 3.

I don't know if this was meant seriously or as satire, but it made me giggle a little. (And Jank Bot giving draw 3 plus health is actually an improvement over certain combinations of cards - doubles of uniques, board wipes, etc.)

Tazelbain
02-04-2016, 12:45 PM
What? So a troop that draws you 3 cards when you attack is thing bad thing?

PureVapes
02-04-2016, 04:26 PM
I started to read the thread but it was very tiresome, so forgive me if this has already been stated.

There will be a lot of new cards to work with by the time you can level the Coyotle talent in question. There could be a few new dwarf friendly 'deckbuilding' restricted cards in the next PvP or PvE release.

The balance of something that doesn't exist yet is not something worth debating IMO.