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View Full Version : Suggestion for the Chained Goliath encounter



Koz
02-05-2016, 08:58 AM
No, this isn't a thread about toning down the difficulty, so all of the "OMG I love this encounter" people can relax (stand down Svenn, stand down). My suggestion is more about preventing players from cheesing their way through it. By "cheesing" him, I mean using cards that prevent him from from drawing cards, or by killing him before he flips and never actually having to fight anything. This can be done in two ways:

1.) Ban Drowned Shrine of Ulthar in PvE. This should probably be done anyway to prevent future abuse, but this card absolutely trivializes both this encounter and the Rose Knight one.

2.) Make it so that when the Goliath hits 25 health, all further damage is prevented that turn. That way he's guaranteed to flip every game and there's no way to "just alpha strike him brah".

This is a really challenging encounter, and players should actually have to BEAT the actual Goliath, not just a target dummy that looks like the Goliath. Just my thoughts on it anyway, maybe others like it this way. shrug

nicosharp
02-05-2016, 09:08 AM
Cheesing PvE based on the encounter is part of the fun of PvE and solving puzzles. It also encourages players to diversify their collection. Cheesy bosses deserve to be Cheesed. :)

Koz
02-05-2016, 09:18 AM
Cheesing PvE based on the encounter is part of the fun of PvE and solving puzzles. It also encourages players to diversify their collection. Cheesy bosses deserve to be Cheesed. :)

Well, I don't mind it if someone puts together a deck that is really strong vs an encounter...but I just think people should have to actually fight the Goliath in order to beat the Goliath. There's just a difference between "I built a deck that's really strong vs encounter X" and "I built a deck that allows you to win without actually playing against encounter X". One is smart deckbuilding, the other is exploitative.

Just my 2 cents anyway! :)

Xenavire
02-05-2016, 09:23 AM
Actually committing to Drowned Shrine means sacrificing any and all draw power of your own (it cuts both ways, unlike Subtle Striker or Curse of Oblivion.)

Also, cheesing through some encounters is going to be a thing - Eternal Guardian exists and wrecks 90% of encounters that exist, and Piranhas are maximum cheese (on purpose) with very few ways to survive, let alone win.

Hell, in theory a bury deck could cheese Goliath down so it lost as soon as he transformed. It is just that kind of encounter.

Koz
02-05-2016, 09:43 AM
Actually committing to Drowned Shrine means sacrificing any and all draw power of your own (it cuts both ways, unlike Subtle Striker or Curse of Oblivion.)

Also, cheesing through some encounters is going to be a thing - Eternal Guardian exists and wrecks 90% of encounters that exist, and Piranhas are maximum cheese (on purpose) with very few ways to survive, let alone win.

Hell, in theory a bury deck could cheese Goliath down so it lost as soon as he transformed. It is just that kind of encounter.

The Drowned Shrine in a Mage deck is a trivial thing to deal with. In encounters other than the Chained Goliath and the Rose Knight you just pitch it to Soothsaying. In those two encounters that you actually use it, the lack of draw for yourself is trivial compared to how much you lower the difficulty of the encounter itself.

Re Eternal Guardian...come on man, that's not even close to the same thing! If you get an Eternal Guardian out (which takes work outside of RNG'ing into it with a Majesty) you are still playing vs the encounter. That's the key. You are actually battling the opponent until you get the Guardian out. Getting out a wincon vs an AI opponent that takes work while the AI is actively trying to work against you is fine, but getting out a wincon while the AI sits idly by and offers no challenge is another. One is playing the game, the other is cheesing the game.

That's cool if some people are fine with the cheese aspect, it's all a matter of opinion, I just think you should actually have to fight the encounter to beat the encounter. But perhaps I'm in the minority on this!

Xenavire
02-06-2016, 05:21 AM
I don't see any difference at all between Drowned Shrine and Eternal Guardian. With both you try and delay as much as possible until you draw and play it, and both increase your chances of winning by ridiculous amounts. It is perfectly possible to ramp into EG in multple different deck types, make it free to play, put it into play with a card effect, etc, and it is effective against many more difficult encounters than Drowned Shrine.

You can't call one cheese and the other not when you are removing a large amount of difficulty with both. I have actually used EG to beat the Hags, the Goliath, the Wormoid Queen, and both Killipede fights, not to mention Armies 6. It is hardcore cheesing, and frankly I'd call it more cheesy than the Drowned Shrine, since the opponents can still damage you when the shrine is out.

Koz
02-06-2016, 07:56 AM
I don't see any difference at all between Drowned Shrine and Eternal Guardian. With both you try and delay as much as possible until you draw and play it, and both increase your chances of winning by ridiculous amounts. It is perfectly possible to ramp into EG in multple different deck types, make it free to play, put it into play with a card effect, etc, and it is effective against many more difficult encounters than Drowned Shrine.

You can't call one cheese and the other not when you are removing a large amount of difficulty with both.

Actually I can, and I do. I honestly don't understand how you can't see the difference. Shrine is FAR easier to get into play than a Guardian. There's also a decent chance that you won't get the Guardian into play before the Goliath flips, which means you'll actually have to hold on long enough to get your "cheese" in play. Getting the Shrine out before he flips is easy as hell (just have to draw it, which isn't hard for a Mage and free mulligan). Guardian is also a Legendary which means you'll have more limited access to it in most Dungeon decks. Plus, the Guardian itself can be killed by direct damage/removal which the Goliath deck has, while the Shrine cannot (I have yet to see it play an artifact removal card). Hell, even if you somehow manage to ramp into a single Guardian before he flips, he's very likely to get killed by the mass damage dealt by the change itself. Playing him after the flip means you've got to survive long enough to do so which means you'll actually be playing against the encounter...which is fine in my book! As long as you actually have to fight him, I don't care how you beat him. I just don't think players should be able to win the encounter without ever actually playing against it.

I'm pretty sure the entire reason that the Goliath doesn't start with a full hand of cards at the beginning of the game is so that you can't use hand destruction against him while he's idle and "cheese" out an easy victory. Shrine denies him 7 cards in a single 2 resource play! Pretty sure they didn't account for that in the design of this encounter... I mean, why would I go to all of the trouble of getting a Guardian into play when a 2 resource Shrine all but shuts the encounter off like flipping a switch?

I'm not trying to be a jerk about this, I respect your opinion, but I think it's absurd to say these two things are equivalent. If you think it's fine as is, cool, I just think it's cheap as hell. And this is coming from a guy who just did it again last night. It was so easy it was almost embarrassing.

Xenavire
02-06-2016, 03:22 PM
You underestimate exactly how easy it can be to ramp into EG in the relatively large number of turns it takes to transform the Goliath. Add in the fact that it is rarely a dead card in the other encounters in the dungeon (you can bascially get free wins on every encounter as practically nothing can destroy EG) and it is actually very easy to cheese your way through not only the Goliath, but most of the rest of the dungeon too (speaking from experience.)

Also, even if EG is killed, it leaves the rest of your troops completely untouched by the board wipe, so it isn't hard to set up a winning position, as the Goliath essentially relies on swarm and burning post transform, and a good board state shuts down both of those things. (Admittedly this all requires thought in deckbuilding, which Shrine doesn't, but it isn't any less easy to steamroll your way through.)

The point is that there will always be cards that trivialise content - EG is a fraction less strong than Shrine in that dungeon, but isn't often a dead card, which balances things out a bit. There are most definitely other cards (especially with equipment) that turn encounters into jokes - Killipede, Righteous Paladin (especially equipped or with lifedrain), Ozawa... And there are plenty of deckbuilding options out there to make all of those very significant in trivialising content.

Some of that comes down to puzzle solving (I'd argue that Smoldering Dead is a bit of a deck building puzzle, and Drowned Shrine rewards you on a good draw - I actually just played through the Goliath with Shrine in my deck and drew it far too late) and other decks that aren't meant to be puzzles get effectively curb-stomped by certain cards.

As more and more cards are introduced, we are going to see more encounters become easier. But bans need to only come when something is truly detrimental, and I don't think Drowned Shrine goes that far.

Flairina
02-07-2016, 07:28 PM
Yeah, sorry, Drowned Shrine seems like legitimate strategy to me, not a way to "cheese" through the fight. Especially given that he still performs a board wipe and has his charge power at his disposal. I mean in that case you could easily say Deathless Guardian with equipment is "cheesing" through the Wiktor fight. You can't just say "this card works really well in this encounter, therefore it should be banned". :|

XViper
02-07-2016, 08:37 PM
I agree partially.
If you're going to do this, you need to reduce the overall difficulty to make it so 'cheesing' him isn't actually required.

As it stands beating him comes down to pure luck more than anything else.

Seluhir
02-08-2016, 07:39 AM
Why is overwhelming him not a valid strategy?

If I can get a troop with 37/37, should I not be able to kill my opponent in one swing? Why not?

Fred
02-08-2016, 07:47 AM
I believe Drowned Shrine is a perfectly valid strategy against the goliath because having it for the boss fight means you committed to carry a pretty much useless card for the whole dungeon. The value of Drowned Shrine outside of the boss fight is very low, and if you are willing to sacrifice deck quality for the whole dungeon in order to use a winning strategy for the boss fight, then it is a classic strategy with its upsides and its drawbacks , and it is valid.