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KingxOfxThexVoid
02-18-2016, 07:48 AM
Using multiple sleeves in the same deck at the same time 3 to 5 sleeves would be great

Yoss
02-18-2016, 09:11 AM
Yeah, we've suggested various ways of rotating sleeves or having more than one sleeve per deck.

Gwaer
02-18-2016, 09:44 AM
3-5 my ass. I want all my sleeves randomly assigned to cards in my deck, once I run out of sleeves it can re-use them.

hammer
02-18-2016, 09:45 AM
3-5 my ass. I want all my sleeves randomly assigned to cards in my deck, once I run out of sleeves it can re-use them.

Rotating Every Sleeve would be so awesome :)

whiteyzz
02-19-2016, 12:24 PM
I actually could see a slight problem with this... but it can be solved.

If you shuffle cards from anywhere back into your deck the sleeve changes or this would be a buff for replicators gambit, I just have to remember the sleeve of the card I put in with it being a % or ...

Let's say you have 3 sleeves 33% of your cards have the same sleeve, you have 20 cards share different sleeves if they don't change when ever I look up at the top card of my deck and it's not X sleeve I replicator gambit I know I can use draw/discard effects on it even if I have no hand.

BenRGamer
02-19-2016, 01:40 PM
Yeah, I don't see this happening. Same reason you don't use different sleeves on physical cards, and why they had to change so if an opponent did Relentless Corruption the had to make it get rid of your sleeve.

What I would like is an option to have a random sleeve each game.

Turtlewing
02-19-2016, 03:04 PM
Yeah, I don't see this happening. Same reason you don't use different sleeves on physical cards, and why they had to change so if an opponent did Relentless Corruption the had to make it get rid of your sleeve.

What I would like is an option to have a random sleeve each game.

If the feature were something you had to turn on/configure, than it wouldn't necessarily be a real problem (anyone using it is presumably less concerned about giving away some information than they are showing off their sleeves). And they could randomize all your card's sleeves every time a card transitions between zones to make the information leak all but nonexistent.

But, having a game to game rotation does sound like a variant I'd be more inclined to use myself.

Clawdius
02-19-2016, 03:06 PM
... Same reason you don't use different sleeves on physical cards...
No, the reason you don't use different sleeves on physical cards is because you could conceivably mark cards. If you asked nicely and gave a judge your cards and sleeves they might apply them for you and allow that, specifically because you couldn't mark cards since they (or in our case, the game) sleeved them for you. Depending of course on a host of variables.

+1 to allowing us to choose from a pool of our sleeves to alternate within a deck/game. To hopefully alleviate Ben's concerns, when the new sleeve was drawn every card could change sleeves to the new sleeve - this would keep players from seeing "Ohhh he's had that beta sleeved card for 6 turns, I'll force him to discard it in case it's a quick action".

Turtlewing
02-19-2016, 03:17 PM
No, the reason you don't use different sleeves on physical cards is because you could conceivably mark cards. If you asked nicely and gave a judge your cards and sleeves they might apply them for you and allow that, specifically because you couldn't mark cards since they (or in our case, the game) sleeved them for you. Depending of course on a host of variables.



That is still marking cards (And I doubt a judge would let you do it). It's less useful than doing it yourself but it's the same fundamental problem as once you know a card has a given sleeve (say because you drew it) you can make a better than intended guess as to whether any face down card is the card you've "marked" based on whether it has the right sleeve.



+1 to allowing us to choose from a pool of our sleeves to alternate within a deck/game. To hopefully alleviate Ben's concerns, when the new sleeve was drawn every card could change sleeves to the new sleeve - this would keep players from seeing "Ohhh he's had that beta sleeved card for 6 turns, I'll force him to discard it in case it's a quick action".

Yeah, changing all your cards' sleeves would work. It's not marking cards if they all change after all.

hex_colin
02-19-2016, 06:26 PM
-1,000,000,000 ;)

Yoss
02-19-2016, 06:54 PM
Having it just rotate the whole deck at once every turn or every few turns or even every game would be good enough for me.

whiteyzz
02-22-2016, 05:40 PM
Again every time you shuffle a card into a deck you would have to change the sleeve. Which would be another process in the background.

Again it would make decks that use replicators gambit, more predictable because you would know when to draw/discard.

Gwaer
02-23-2016, 08:09 PM
Just let information leak. It's a tradeoff I'll take every time.

Clawdius
02-24-2016, 09:28 AM
Again every time you shuffle a card into a deck you would have to change the sleeve. Which would be another process in the background.How many CPU cycles would you estimate that would consume, approximately? I doubt it would be the sort of thing that was consuming hundreds of teraflops daily.


Again it would make decks that use replicators gambit, more predictable because you would know when to draw/discard.

I'm really not sure that's a valid argument against the whole deck rotating active sleeves. Besides, we've got far more reliable mechanics that already facilitate that sort of action. Dream Smoke Mystic comes to mind. How on earth can you say that it would make replicators gambit more predictable without specifying what it would be more predictable than? I can use RG on a Darkspire card and literally select the specific card changed the next time another Darkspire allows me to choose another card with Darkspire in the name.

A deck built around that mechanic, for constructed purposes, would probably be absolutely awful in the current constructed meta. So under which circumstances, specifically, are you concerned about the potential for full deck sleeve rotation to give players info leak?

Now, if you had said something along the lines of it would make the already poorly optimized client more resource intensive I could see that. Then I would make the argument that augmenting player's abilities and game optimization are not mutually exclusive actions, but we'd be having a discussion where I understood your point without requiring additional information from you.

whiteyzz
02-25-2016, 12:55 AM
How many CPU cycles would you estimate that would consume, approximately? I doubt it would be the sort of thing that was consuming hundreds of teraflops daily.


I'm really not sure that's a valid argument against the whole deck rotating active sleeves. Besides, we've got far more reliable mechanics that already facilitate that sort of action. Dream Smoke Mystic comes to mind. How on earth can you say that it would make replicators gambit more predictable without specifying what it would be more predictable than? I can use RG on a Darkspire card and literally select the specific card changed the next time another Darkspire allows me to choose another card with Darkspire in the name.

A deck built around that mechanic, for constructed purposes, would probably be absolutely awful in the current constructed meta. So under which circumstances, specifically, are you concerned about the potential for full deck sleeve rotation to give players info leak?

Now, if you had said something along the lines of it would make the already poorly optimized client more resource intensive I could see that. Then I would make the argument that augmenting player's abilities and game optimization are not mutually exclusive actions, but we'd be having a discussion where I understood your point without requiring additional information from you.

If the sleeves don't change, you know the sleeve the card has, sure there is plenty of ways to find it as you put it out, but what happens if you don't draw dream smoke/ect/ect. The thing is if it's constantly changing that would make any mass effect of putting cards back into anywhere in the enemy deck would be a lagtastic journey to the no fun zone.

The thing is replicators gambit is the first card like that, we will most likely see more into other colours that might not be able to splash blue.If they don't change when you switch out and you remember the cover, it becomes a game of probability.

Let's say you have four sleeves evenly between your deck do 15 cards, if you don't switch the sleeves and remember the sleeve it had (let's call it sleeve 4). Now the player without dream smoke every card on the top of his deck is either that card or not, but for 0 mana, 0 resource, 0 nothing just having multiple sleeves (that is they don't switch upon going into you deck) have either an 0% or ~7% to draw the card, if it's not that card, the next card in that sleeve because a 14% chance to being that card.

If I know the chances of what the top card might be for free, let's say after I draw half the 4 sleeves I have 50% chance to draw into it if that sleeve pops up and boom, the opponent plays a mill spell. Guess what if you run ancient king or the like now you personally know there is a ~50 or above% chance he might mill your card. You could've gotten away with him milling at ~7% chance but at ~50% it's a pretty heavy chance he might mill the card you need.

So they would need to switch it every time it goes back into the deck, and will that cause ridiculous problems on the back end, If it does the only solution is we don't have it because the player with X deck, can now react knowing the probability of stuff happening for free, zero dream smoke needed.

Clawdius
02-25-2016, 10:39 AM
The thing is if it's constantly changing that would make any mass effect of putting cards back into anywhere in the enemy deck would be a lagtastic journey to the no fun zone.

So you're arguing that they would use the absolute worst method to code that feature, and change the sleeves for every card each change even on effects that would introduce obscene amounts of cards into the deck, cosmic totem or what have you? Or are you still envisioning a rainbow of sleeves with multiple sleeves applied to a single deck? Because that idea has never been what I was proposing from my first post in this thread. Every single card, in every single zone, would change their sleeve to the next sleeve in rotation during your starting phase before you draw a card.

That they would do that with every card played was not a position I had considered, and honestly you might be right. It's entirely possible that they could look at the vast array of potential methods and say "Let's go with the worst, most resource intensive method". I really, really would hope they would just change every single card sleeve at the start of a player turn, regardless of anything else that happens.

I mean, at that point there is no information leak, because every card in your hand, in your deck, in your void, in your crypt would all change at once and only once per turn. That would make it no different than a permanent single sleeve from an information leak standpoint.

But yeah I mean, it's a frightening prospect that they would choose to use the method you describe. I feel like it would be like someone choosing a murder weapon and going with a frozen potato over a kitchen knife... But you're right, if that's the method they chose it would be an absolute nightmare for everyone concerned.

Yoss
02-25-2016, 11:41 AM
I agree that per-card sleeves is not a great idea. I like just having a rotation of all sleeves in the whole deck (uniform, like it is now) per start of your turn or per start of each game.

Gwaer
02-25-2016, 04:52 PM
LALALALALALA Want all sleeves in a rainbow of different sleeves across my entire deck at any given time!

Turtlewing
02-25-2016, 05:16 PM
Just let information leak. It's a tradeoff I'll take every time.

That doesn't make a compelling argument as you're able to benefit from the information leak.

Gwaer
02-26-2016, 12:07 AM
That's honestly ridiculous. You can't see the backs of your cards. Keeping track of every single card back before it is drawn then keeping that info for when you eventually replicate something only to know if it is the top card of your deck so you should try to draw it faster is the most convoluted and ridiculous hypothetical situation I've ever heard. The only potential information leak is your opponent can keep easier track of which cards in your hand you've played after something is returned to your hand. Which is something they can already do anyway.

hammer
02-26-2016, 05:12 AM
So many sleeves sit unused and it will get worse there are simply too many sleeves pumping into the system and you can only use 1 at a time. Basically 30 sleeves a year +/-

Per year assuming 3 PvP sets a year:

9 Wheel of Fate Sleeves, 9 Primal Chest Sleeves, 1 VIP sleeve, 4 Holiday Event Sleeves, 1 Gencon Sleeve, Poster Sleeve (2 Variants), 1 other convention sleeve, invitational qualifier sleeves (potentially 4 variants), Invitational attendance (2 Variants), maybe 1-2 PvE related sleeves per year, Anniversary sleeve --

Turtlewing
02-26-2016, 11:21 AM
That's honestly ridiculous. You can't see the backs of your cards. Keeping track of every single card back before it is drawn then keeping that info for when you eventually replicate something only to know if it is the top card of your deck so you should try to draw it faster is the most convoluted and ridiculous hypothetical situation I've ever heard. The only potential information leak is your opponent can keep easier track of which cards in your hand you've played after something is returned to your hand. Which is something they can already do anyway.

Simply put your incorrect abut the directionality of the leak.

The leak is not one way, as you do learn more about the state of your deck than was intended. As such saying "i'd use it even though there's an information leak" is not a good argument.

Touching on the limited scale of the leak is a reasonable point, but as the existence of the leak is pretty clear I'd argue that a relatively high standard should be held for proving it isn't damaging, for any extant or future card. Which frankly is going to be near impossible.

So what's better, compromising on a global cycling concept that has no information leak, or tasking the devs with spending time determining if the information leak will ever be a problem in the current and future design space of Hex?

Gwaer
02-26-2016, 12:12 PM
Allowing us to sleeve our cards that we 'own' however we want. I'd say takes priority, especially when you consider the vast assortment of sleeves that are already available and we will continue to be inundated with.

the tiny amount of information that could be potentially leaked with every card having a separate but random card back, which you cannot see after the card is drawn, you have exactly one window to see what card back is on a card when it is the top card of your deck. Opening hand, you have no idea which card has which back, if you draw multiple cards you have no idea which card is which back. Then, trying to suss out that information, you have to keep your eye on the top card at all times, memorize which random sleeve (out of 40 or 60+) that card has for when you decide to replicate it or buff it in the future. THEN, the only information all of that effort gives you is if it is the top card of the deck. All of this is much much easier for your opponent to determine than you. They can see the backs as the cards are played, and see the card at the top of your deck. They are much more likely to be able to force you to lose that card than you can speed up drawing it.

It is such a stupid argument against it.

Clawdius
02-26-2016, 04:27 PM
Allowing us to sleeve our cards that we 'own' however we want. I'd say takes priority, especially when you consider the vast assortment of sleeves that are already available and we will continue to be inundated with.
Don't be silly Gwaer, here in America we don't even universally let people have rights over their own bodies. Making other people's decisions for them is very important to some folks. Never figured that one out myself.

As for the sleeves though I maintain that a full deck rotation in all zones at the start of a player's turn has no potential for information leak, even of the most innocuous kind, no matter how ridiculous the scenario postulated, it would be functionally identical to having one sleeve in games. It would just allow us to select a rotation of our favorites, and I guess over the course of a game a new player might lose morale, but this is simply a case where an option for "display sleeve rotation" should sit next to "display extended art" and "display your screen shaking violently every time you are hit for 1 damage when you have 1 armor".

Zophie
02-26-2016, 04:42 PM
Rotating Every Sleeve would be so awesome :)

http://i.imgur.com/WTDFgLZ.gif

deja vu

Gwaer
02-27-2016, 08:57 AM
I suppose hidden cards could shuffle sleeves around, so you never actually see the sleeve change. like any visible card back stays the same, all cards beneath the top card in the deck shuffle around. That way it's not stupidly distracting like the image zophie posted above.