PDA

View Full Version : Let me customize my deck in dungeon in the 1st run.



Altima
02-18-2016, 01:24 PM
I do not like Devonshire Keep Dungeon difficulty spike.

The whole dungeon is a cake walk until the boss which took me 4 tried of that run to kill him.

I'm a type of player who like to go in blindly and change my deck according to the situation but it is annoying when I have to play again with the same deck that I know that it is not optimum for the encounter.

So I should be able to fix my deck in the first run or until after I finish that dungeon for the 1st time.

Also I need deck slot as well. At least one more deck slot should make my life much better.

one for my main deck and one for specific encounter.

Phenteo
02-18-2016, 01:26 PM
Moving thread to appropriate sub-forum.

Clawdius
02-18-2016, 01:37 PM
The feature that will allow strategy alterations on the fly in a dungeon run is still in development. It's planned that we will have Mercenaries that will have their own decks, and allow us to utilize another strategy when our main character is insufficient to the task. Sadly Mercenaries did not make it into AZ1, and Hex Entertainment LLC plays their cards so close to the vest that when it comes time to put them on the table they likely need to have them surgically removed.

We don't know -anything- about mercenaries in their current form beyond their names, and that they are supposed to be alternative champions we can use to get around trouble spots in dungeons. Everything else is speculation unfortunately.

Tazelbain
02-18-2016, 03:12 PM
Yep, Wiktor is garbage. A black spot on an otherwise well done campaign.

Lafoote
02-18-2016, 06:58 PM
Wiktor is wonderful, but it does have some difficulty attached. I breezed through it on my Coyotle Cleric, but had to run it a slew of times on my Mage.

Trial and error + perseverance will see you through.

Tazelbain
02-18-2016, 07:50 PM
Play rock against scissors is hardly a thrilling puzzle.

Yoss
02-18-2016, 10:23 PM
Wiktor is quite hard when playing in HardCory, Faction-Locked, no-AH mode as a mage. I've burned 8 lives so far trying, and apart from him getting shard screwed, I'm not at all sure I'll ever win. I'll probably have to give up the no-AH part of my challenge and add some burn cards.

He seems like he'd be pretty trivial if I allowed myself a full card collection though.

Turtlewing
02-19-2016, 11:28 AM
I think letting us redesign our decks mid dungeon would undermine a lot of the challenge in dungeons.

Clawdius
02-19-2016, 04:23 PM
I think letting us redesign our decks mid dungeon would undermine a lot of the challenge in dungeons.

The feature that is coming is Mercenaries, and Devonshire Keep is pretty clearly balanced with them in mind. But I'm with you on the changing things in decks in dungeons, that would be temporary code that had to be stripped AKA a waste of developer time.

hex_colin
02-19-2016, 04:31 PM
The whole point is that you have to design a deck that beats all the encounters, not just a specific one. Otherwise folks would use their speed clearing rush decks as much as possible and switch out for specific encounters.

I would much prefer a world where you couldn't use Mercs until you'd cleared a dungeon without them.

Turtlewing
02-19-2016, 04:39 PM
The feature that is coming is Mercenaries, and Devonshire Keep is pretty clearly balanced with them in mind. But I'm with you on the changing things in decks in dungeons, that would be temporary code that had to be stripped AKA a waste of developer time.

Well what we know about mercs implies you don't get to build their decks mid dungeon either.

Being able to choose from 4 decks (assuming 3 mercs) is still not quite the same as having free reign to build a new deck after losing your first life to the boss.

OP seems to want to be able to see the boss's gimmick then immediately rebuild to defeat it, rather than having to start the dungeon over to add counters to the boss' tricks.

Similarly I expect you will have to select your mercs and or consumables at the start of the dungeon.

Turtlewing
02-19-2016, 04:45 PM
The whole point is that you have to design a deck that beats all the encounters, not just a specific one. Otherwise folks would use their speed clearing rush decks as much as possible and switch out for specific encounters.

I would much prefer a world where you couldn't use Mercs until you'd cleared a dungeon without them.

I don't know about that. I think the same basic design challenges will apply with mercs it'll juts be that encounetrs within a dungeon can become more diverse and you have to put together a team of one champion and some mercs that can beat all the encounters.

Clawdius
02-19-2016, 04:57 PM
Well what we know about mercs implies you don't get to build their decks mid dungeon either.

Yeah, not what I was saying/meant. I meant that mercs will allow you to change tactics/decks to the merc on the fly after you know more about the encounter. The decks, of course, would stay the same but your ability to use The Spirit of the Triumvirate or Count Davian, or someone more appropriate to the challenge you're facing.

Seluhir
02-19-2016, 09:10 PM
The whole point is that you have to design a deck that beats all the encounters, not just a specific one. Otherwise folks would use their speed clearing rush decks as much as possible and switch out for specific encounters.

I would much prefer a world where you couldn't use Mercs until you'd cleared a dungeon without them.

This would be a world in which hex pve fails miserably. And no, I won't sugarcoat that...

If you have to build your deck to be such a perfect generalist that it can take care of everything, it would require you to have both a complete collection AND complete and perfect knowledge of the game... basically ensuring that none but the most AVID players ever touch the game at all(which basically means just the pvp players).

What needs to happen is the game needs to offer challenge, but also offer enough flexibility, variant paths, and customizability to allow people to feel as though it is accessible.

I personally feel the current campaign does an awful job of this. If they add a second set of quests that are parallel to the stuff we have right now but not reliant upon completion of the stuff we have now... and add mercenaries... I think they'll be in a better place. But right now, the campaign is designed to cater to the people already playing, not new players... and making it LESS accessible is not the way to ensure a larger number of people enjoy the game you love.

Yoss
02-19-2016, 09:26 PM
This would be a world in which hex pve fails miserably. And no, I won't sugarcoat that...

If you have to build your deck to be such a perfect generalist that it can take care of everything, it would require you to have both a complete collection AND complete and perfect knowledge of the game... basically ensuring that none but the most AVID players ever touch the game at all(which basically means just the pvp players).

What needs to happen is the game needs to offer challenge, but also offer enough flexibility, variant paths, and customizability to allow people to feel as though it is accessible.

I personally feel the current campaign does an awful job of this. If they add a second set of quests that are parallel to the stuff we have right now but not reliant upon completion of the stuff we have now... and add mercenaries... I think they'll be in a better place. But right now, the campaign is designed to cater to the people already playing, not new players... and making it LESS accessible is not the way to ensure a larger number of people enjoy the game you love.

Out of curiosity, do you think that the current content requires "both a complete collection AND complete and perfect knowledge of the game"? Other than Wiktor and the optional super-hard encounters, the campaign seems balanced around F2P players. Maybe I'm just picking overpowered race/class combos or something, or getting lucky on my loot drops, but playing through as if I was F2P has been both quite fun and not overly hard. With my Elf Mage I did eventually let myself buy some commons off the AH with the gold I'd earned, but other than that I only used the cards that character found for himself.

BenRGamer
02-20-2016, 09:35 AM
I don't think full deck customization should ever be allowed in Dungeons.

But I was quite surprised that they don't have Reserves. I thought a big part of PvE was encouraging people to try PvP--and vice versa with chests. So I figured that allowing reserves in dungeons would serve as an excellent tool for teaching PvE players about it.

Seluhir
02-21-2016, 08:46 AM
Out of curiosity, do you think that the current content requires "both a complete collection AND complete and perfect knowledge of the game"? Other than Wiktor and the optional super-hard encounters, the campaign seems balanced around F2P players. Maybe I'm just picking overpowered race/class combos or something, or getting lucky on my loot drops, but playing through as if I was F2P has been both quite fun and not overly hard. With my Elf Mage I did eventually let myself buy some commons off the AH with the gold I'd earned, but other than that I only used the cards that character found for himself.

I think that it is overtuned if it is designed with new players in mind. Hugely so. I don't think it's designed with 'full collections' in mind, but I think its designed with the current playerbase in mind, not new players.

All these people trying the 'new player challenge' or whatever verbiage they choose to use are just deluding themselves... just as much as those challenger players in LoL who start new accounts to prove that 'a new player can go from silver to diamond in a week'.

The current campaign is designed assuming you either have complete knowledge of the game OR a huge collection. For someone like me, it's on the verge of being too hard... for someone worse than me, like a new player... it's WAY too hard especially considering this is essentially supposed to be the 'early game experience'... and we can assume its only going to get harder from here.

I'll be blunt here: I've given up on ever completing the final dungeon. And since there's a good chance(since they only designed one path in this content) that the new content is going to be contingent upon completing it... that means I've basically given up on all pve in the future.

Look at any mmo out there. Literally any one... the first 10-15 levels are essentially tutorial and should be easy to make people who are new to the game feel like they're accomplishing something. Even FFXIV, which had a notoriously difficult starting experience for some classes, made it easy for most people to do until around level 17 or 18 when you got to the first story arc's climactic quest.

Kilo24
02-21-2016, 09:39 AM
...

I do think that it is too hard for new players, and progressing is too slow. Moreover, the hefty component of luck (especially with the starter decks) means that running into difficulty usually generates more frustration than motivation.

But... I don't think it's *that* hard. There are some excellent cards out there that drop in the campaign - most of which are guaranteed racial drops - and the prices for them are decreasing. Other cards - Adaptatron, Ethereal Healer, Stalker of Marbaras - are also great drops from AZ1 packs, which new players can farm pretty easily too. Keep in mind that for half of the time spent grinding for the race-exclusive cards (which is also the best way to get AZ1 packs) you can't use anything but the default starter deck. Combine that with the decent selection of good cheap commons/uncommons out there like Buccaneer and Darkspire Priestesses, and it's not that hostile of an environment.

About the levels - remember that those games have many more levels than Hex does. You're comparing games that have 50+ levels to Hex *eventually* having 30, and those games also generally expect you to spend more time on a single character. Hex guides a character from level 1 to almost level 8 purely doing each bit of the content once; few MMOs can claim that a player can get to 1-2 levels from the max before they repeat *any* content. I agree that they could use a better introduction, but prolonging the per-character introduction they currently have is not something I'd agree with.

I will agree that Wiktor is a large difficulty jump from the "on-track" content. However, one of the devs did say that they were looking at improving the bonus for taking the side path. Because it's a time-consuming side branch of three fights, they can improve the bonus to a very large degree before the efficiency of farming the content gets affected. As such, the bonus may be turned into a way to have less powerful players still be able to reliably beat Wiktor - something I'd strongly recommend.

Yoss
02-21-2016, 09:17 PM
If you have to build your deck to be such a perfect generalist that it can take care of everything, it would require you to have both a complete collection AND complete and perfect knowledge of the game... basically ensuring that none but the most AVID players ever touch the game at all(which basically means just the pvp players).


The current campaign is designed assuming you either have complete knowledge of the game OR a huge collection.

OK, so you're changing your "and" to "or". That's a huge difference and makes the statement much more defensible. Carry on.

madar
02-22-2016, 01:57 AM
I think the difficulty depend also on the definition of the new player. This game (i think) target a smaller playerbase, not the whole world 9-99, like for example World of Warcraft or Hearthstone doin it.

My wife playing Hearthstone every day since 2 years ago, and she liked the HEX PVE design, and tried it. She clicked through the tutorial, and began a dwarf cleric (what i recommended her), but she got spanked already in the first fight (against Glendower), and after i helped her, she played a bit more, but didn't reach the end of the practicing dungeon i think, and never started the game again.
Why did she fail? She kept forgeting to use the hero ability, the too many phases confused her, and she kept forgeting to attack, or when she wanted to attack it was already too late. She didn't get why sometimes she cannot block (was a flying attacker), and she was pretty far even from the basic tricks (make a War Bot from the starting artifact with Construct Foreman).
This game is complicated, there is millions of combinations, tons of abilities, many effects which change the results of events, and then equipments and other modifiers. She don't have the sense for this, and after a few fails she didn't dig into the details, just gave up. (And she have experience with card games).

I don't say this is a problem, there is different games, and who like the HEX, likes it because its complexity. But it's mean not everybody will like it \ able to play it \ invest energy into to understand it. There will be always ppl who will found it too difficult, because it's have a steep learning curve.

If the game want to pull more players, would need a much bigger tutorial\training area, with fix deck, where either you can win if you make mistakes, or it's holding your hand, and teaching one thing at a time. Like learning 1-2 abilities \ fight.

Also would help a recommended class\race for new player, as aggro usually easyer than other decks.

It's already the technical part, and need experience for some tricks, for example, where you attack with a buffable troop, (lure the computer), wait for defender assign, and you buff in the middle of combat. You would say this is a basic thing, and it's not difficult at all, but it will take a while till a new player can figure this out only by himself.

So i think this game is more difficult than most of the veterans realize, i agree with Seluhir.

I also agree with Colin, when he say you should beat the dungeon first time (at least) with an unmodified, unhelped deck, this is the challenge, same like in the Arena, where you get different events for your same deck. But i think it's not a big deal. In a few days someone will post a netdeck, and someone else will recommend cheaper replacements into it, and if someone have a problem, will able to make it anyway. So doesn't really matter if you can edit the deck\use mercs within the dungeon, because if it's a too hard challenge, ppl (me) will look for netdecks anyway. Don't need to overthink imo.

Chinane
02-22-2016, 06:20 AM
The problem with wiktor is IMO the hard requirements the encounter places on your deck:

- you need removal for the elemental and the means to play it early enough (ideally in your starting hand)
- IF wiktor power-of-rubies into decaying giant you need an early counter for that
- IF wiktor plays sweltering zombies early, you need multiple removals or mass removal

That's a lot of randomness on top of the random chance of losing dungeon lives on the way there.

That said, I'm at about 70% chance of repeatedly beating the dungeon with my budget Terrormill Vennen deck, so it's entirely possible even as pure F2P player.

Yoss
02-22-2016, 10:11 AM
If the game want to pull more players, would need a much bigger tutorial\training area, with fix deck, where either you can win if you make mistakes, or it's holding your hand, and teaching one thing at a time. Like learning 1-2 abilities \ fight.

I agree that the early game could get even better. The recent patch made huge strides toward improving the new player tutorials, but much more could still be done. As you say, there are at least a dozen lessons that should be taught one at a time (basic card structures and resources, passing priority, every key word, each phase stop and why you would/wouldn't choose to stop the game there and why, basic attacking and blocking, and on and on). I haven't done the tutorial in a while, but I doubt it covers everything that it could/should.

Turtlewing
02-22-2016, 02:45 PM
Yeah, not what I was saying/meant. I meant that mercs will allow you to change tactics/decks to the merc on the fly after you know more about the encounter. The decks, of course, would stay the same but your ability to use The Spirit of the Triumvirate or Count Davian, or someone more appropriate to the challenge you're facing.

But ultimately the same core "issue" described by the OP persists (that if you don't know what the trick to beating the final boss is when you enter the dungeon and you have to start the dungeon over in order to build against the boss's "puzzle" you essentially have to de a "recon" run followed by a "real" run)

And presumably content released alongside or after the addition of mercs will have similar design where you might have 2 or 3 puzzle type encounters intended to make you build merc decks to counter them so in practice you still probably get cases where you get some way into a dungeon only to find out you need say: a deck that can deal with artifacts, or one that can win in under 4 turns, and none of your mercs are quite up to it so you have to start the dungeon over to bring a different merc or modify the decks used by your mercs.

Personally I think that's working as intended. But strictly speaking it does mean mercs (as I expect them to work) aren't a solution to the OP's problem.

Clawdius
02-24-2016, 09:41 AM
Personally I think that's working as intended. But strictly speaking it does mean mercs (as I expect them to work) aren't a solution to the OP's problem.

While I'll agree that outfitting your decks and mercenaries to be a sort of "jack of all trades" won't solve the issue every time, it's probably more helpful than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. For those who enjoy surprises a recon run is a valid option (that mercenaries should provide more ability overcome a "hard counter" to your standard deck), and for those that don't enjoy discovering this sort of thing on their own they can ask chat what to expect or turn to resources outside the game.

Of course, Hex Entertainment LLC is more difficult to nail down than jello when it comes to unreleased features. Mercenaries could act differently than we're guessing, all we know for certain is that they will not work the way that was outlined in Kickstarter. I never meant to suggest that mercenaries would allow us all to dance merrily past encounters that were meant to pose a challenge, simply that after losing a dungeon life in the course of a recon run, we could change our strategies on the fly. That is, of course, still theoretical given that Mercenaries are still coming soon™

As such any time some unfortunate clown discovers the truth of their plans, he must be put down. What do you think Corey was doing in the Kickstarter Video? Being an assassin for hire? No, he was simply preventing the spread of information not ready for public consumption, by someone who lacked the proper respect for their NDAs. Always read the fine print people!

Turtlewing
02-24-2016, 11:47 AM
While I'll agree that outfitting your decks and mercenaries to be a sort of "jack of all trades" won't solve the issue every time, it's probably more helpful than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

Not really.

I mean, it's almost exactly the same situation we have now.

Currently building a jack of all trades deck won't get you through every dungeon so sometimes you'll hit an encounter (In OP's example Wictor) where your best bet time wise it to concede the dungeon, rebuild your deck knowing what you'll face and start the dungeon over because otherwise you're juts going to loose until you run out of lives then do the same thing.

OP wants to instead be able to open up the deck builder, make changes and try the encounter again without starting the dungeon over.

Adding mercs or reserves, still leaves you with a situation where, because the content is balanced assuming you have mercs and reserves, a jack of all trades team of mercs will sometimes hit an encounter where you don't have the right answer and your best bet time wise is to concede, adjust your team, and try again. It probably won't be Wictor, but there's definitely going to be content designed to challenge even a team of mercs once mercs are a thing.

I think that's good. And that giving the OP what they want would make it too hard to make challenging dungeons. But mercs clearly are not the panacea to the Op's issue as you're still going to have to start over any time you run into an encounter you don't have a suitable merc for, and when content released alongside or after mercs is considered it's likely the number of puzzle encounters will increase as players have the possibility of building to defeat several distinct puzzles in one dungeon with mercs.

Clawdius
02-24-2016, 12:22 PM
While I'll agree that outfitting your decks and mercenaries to be a sort of "jack of all trades" won't solve the issue every time, it's probably more helpful than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

Not really.

We can test this pretty quick, let me go sharpen a stick.

In all seriousness though, there is not nor should there be any plan to trivialize content for players going into it fresh. I really don't even feel like the Op was asking for that, more that he would like to be able to alter his strategy on the fly. Mercenaries seem like they will allow for that to some extent. A Slamvolt with a pure artifact deck would probably help with an encounter that used a lot of kill style removal, or cards that were only able to be blocked by their color shard or an artifact. A Count Davian with a host of VKs and VPs would open doors that might otherwise remain closed to a Dwarven cleric. A Spirit of the Triumvirate with a tricolor human deck should give a monowild Coyotle tribal deck player (why they would exist at all is of course purely to baffle the likes of us) character options to get around a deck composed entirely of Dust Bustards.

At the end of the day, we're arguing about content that hasn't been implemented, which will remain fruitless. It is probably best that we table this particular discussion until there is any concrete information released on Mercenaries.

When I brought up Mercenaries, it was not so that the Op would see them as the MacGuffin of his dreams, it was because it was entirely possible he didn't even know that they were going to exist.