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View Full Version : HEX end-game is SUPER HARDMODE



jull
02-22-2016, 03:14 AM
Hey there o/

My opinion as a new player here, I got the game 3 days ago, loved it, basicely Magic the gathering complexity with a super great client animations/sounds, I love it and my hype metter goes crazy. But as I progressed into the game I figure out quickly that end game tournaments is SUPER HARDCORE MORE THAT MAKES ME JUST SAY WTF AND WANT TO LEAVE.

PROBLEM:

End-game (tournaments) will drive me to DRAFTS (WTF is that ?) tournaments that last 2/3hours long (OKAY...) and cost around 7€ (WOW is it worse than P2W?). And I probably gonna do a LOT of crap my first games, with few chance to win anything and loose money, etc... Plus: basicely NOTHING helping you on the game to learn it, the learning curve is amazingly hard. You go from SUPER EASY PvE, to SUPER HARDMODE PvP. No tutorials, no easy tournaments, super hard to browse all cards, tournaments mode are basicely not explained, etc...

My reaction ? Should I keep playing that game that sound like a scam to me, I gonna get beaten by super geeks playing it h24 on tournaments, or should i leave and play something more new player friendly ? I really though I was leaving. To me, this is the biggest issue of the game, tournaments are super hard for a new player perspective. 90% players will try HEX, try PvE, and be scared by tournaments. You have to learn how to draft, learn the meta, learn cards, see how to play, watch youtube, watch twitch, learn how to buy packs etc... You basciely have to study the whole game before jumping into tournaments... Nothing helps you to get there.

SOLUTIONS:

- Easier and cheaper tournaments (Constructed, only commons/uncos, 1 pack to enter).
- Simple matchmaking arenas: 1 pack to enter, if you win 10 games straight you win X packs.
- Construct, Sealed, Draft, all those things should be explained with easy vidéo tutorials.
- An easy card browser: Actual browser is not intuitive, it should be super easy to see and learn all cards.

To me, the game miss a LOT of things between super easy PvE, and super hard learning curve mega hard mode tournaments. There should be tournaments/arenas in between to learn the game. Easy/cheap access tournaments, Easy/cheap arenas.

It's like poker you know, you don't want to dive into a 50€ dollar table full of sharks in your first play, you want to try 1€ tables to learn the game before.

Gregangel
02-22-2016, 03:39 AM
Sadly, you are right. I think the game took off beta tag to soon without setting up a more friendly interface who explaine how things work. The game only give newplayer gameplay information.
Hex Ent is not skilled at all in com' strategy.

These day, i do a lot of suisse draft, and i played against a tremendous number of players who played with a 60 cards decks... and loose dramaticly... And most of all, ragequit the draft without even try game 2 and 3.

I try to explained how it works in tchat but they already throw 5 bucks through the windows and become very frustrated. And i wouldnt need to do that in a game not in beta anymore (maybe they even don't know they are two more game to play...)

It's a real issue which could ring the bells of the game's dead if not adressed soon, imho

Reeplay
02-22-2016, 03:44 AM
Welcome to hex first of all, I'm glad you like the PvE content and are considering entering tournaments.
So tournaments are harder to get into sadly. That is the nature of most competitive games. You kind of need to just push through it sadly. 'worse than P2W' as you put it. It is entering the tournament same as all card games or other games for that matter.
Also you don't have to pay any real money to enter these events. You can sell your cards and gold you get from PvE to get the platinum to buy the packs and get the entry fee. Also you keep all cards you take in drafts or sealed queues so you are only really paying the plat entry fee cost.

I would suggest you do either swiss draft or Sealed gauntlet first. Swiss draft let's you see the drafting process but lets you play all 3 best of 3 rounds regardless so you can see other decks players maybe using and gives you a higher chance at winning something back. Sealed gauntlet costs a bit more to enter but let's you see all your cards and take more time making your deck. Each game of gauntlet is a single game where you get up to 5 wins or 3 loses before your out, the best part of gauntlet is that you can play the games when you want so you don't need to commit hours of your time.

There is a way to see all the cards in hex. Go to your card manager and click the 'show all' box in filters. This will show you the cards in hex so you can understand more of what you might see. just remember that set 003 'armies of myth' is the only set currently used in the limited events.

jull
02-22-2016, 07:15 AM
Reeplay.... Thanks for your reply, but you really miss my point here.

Explaining each new players they can do this, or that, or link them tutorials to help them get into tournaments, is not how you do great games. We are in 2016 people just try and quit games so easely now, we are spammed by so much games to play. You have to admit it's hard for a "random" new player to get into. I'm 35y old, bachelor +5 degree, full time employe, and it has be hard for me to learn how tournaments work (Draft, Cards, Meta, etc...). I've been watching twitch, youtube, guides, to basicely understand how tournaments work.

It have to be easier to drive your population to tournament, more new player friendly, in the game not on tier websites, not reading guides and forums etc.... 95% of your audiance will try HEX, play PvE, then get the unicornpoop out as soon they realize how hard is tournaments. Learning curve is horrible, you have to fix it asap, not on forums, not on other tier websites, but in the actual game. I did the effort to read and learn a lot about HEX (eve HEX Website don't have a card browser....seriously ?) , i did that to learn HEX, but 95% of the audiance are super lazy 18/35 years old that will just uninstall the game as soon they reach anything too hard and difficult in a game, even more when they realise tournaments entrance is 7€ !

they won't come on forums, they will just close the game, and launch DOTA 2 or Earthstone. Easier as that that's a fact.

You have to fill this learning curves, you have to make "mid range" content that drives people interest into the game and bring them to competitive play. It's like having GuildWars 2 PvE and cash price Tournaments, without any arenas to train for those tournaments... It's like having a solo campagin in Call of duty and a 100,000€ cash price tournaments, without any serious arena to train for that tournament... you got the thing ? a piece is really missing.

You will have 95% turnovers, only a few population of nerd fans will make the hard effort to learn and persist in tournaments.

That's really bad :/

Chinane
02-22-2016, 07:58 AM
Pretty much sums it up. :)

Yoss
02-22-2016, 10:16 AM
Sadly, I believe this feedback is spot on. :(

On the upside, the game has gotten better and better with each feature patch. Hopefully they can find resources to put onto the PvE-to-Tournaments transition systems and tutorials, because that's where they ultimately make most of their money.

Elwinz
02-22-2016, 01:54 PM
7$ worse than P2W? Have you ever played any card game? like MTGO? Thats 14$ there and in mtg u cant earn your free currency by pve ...


If poepple are too lazy to do research on a game and launch Heartsone instrad it clearly means it wasnt for them.

Not that some of your points arent true. Game is bad explaining true. A lot of what u siad is correct
it needs some tweaking but not too much

Thaths kind of double edged sword. IF u worked hard for something you wil care about it and not let it go. IF u have got something easy or for free, you will not care mouch about it. "Easy come, easy go"


Actualy having bunch of nerds isnt bad as you might think. Game is known from awesome community but huge part of it is beciase its small. I would rather have small buch of freindly nerds than giganit super toxic LOL, DOTA community. I played LoL before it grew big i know how it was on the begining and how it is now


Most poeple wil disagree with me. But thats my point of view.

nicosharp
02-22-2016, 02:23 PM
I can't comment from a fresh non-TCG player perspective, but anyone coming in with no experience of how something like MTG:O is structured and played competitively will easily feel jaded by the cost and experience here in-comparison to other games currently in the digital market space.

I agree with Yoss on where the game is headed, and what we should see soon, 'hopefully'.

This marketing model stands-alone in comparison to all other digital games right now. Heavily advise you read some material shared on the New Player forums, and do research before diving deeper... It doesn't address the lack of accessibility you have to this information in the client, but the community has provided the information elsewhere... as a short term solution to a larger issue that addresses the gaming demographic.

Gregangel
02-22-2016, 02:24 PM
Well, nobody want Hex to become mainstream like HS but it still need more pvp players to survive. Until now, we can't say HexE made enough things to welcome new players with open arms. I was ok with that for a game in beta, that's worries me a lot now it's not anymore.

Maybe they have a plan but the clock is ticking.

nicosharp
02-22-2016, 02:29 PM
Maybe they have a plan but the clock is ticking.

The clock is always ticking, but you can't shit out quality like it's a soft-serve yogurt machine.
Luckily, there is nothing quite like HEX, and there won't be anything like it for quite some time. I fully anticipate more new player integrated cross-over content to competitive by the time az3 is here. (which may take a year or so, but I know they know what they need, how long it will take, and approx. when it will be released.)

Beta tags were removed, but everyone that has been around for a while knows we are still not looking at a even remotely complete product.

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24477

jull
02-22-2016, 02:32 PM
"bashing" the game was not my purpose, my bad if that's how you feel it.

Game is really nice and I love it as I said, mechanics are great, UI, animations and sounds are awesome, really. HEX have done an awesome TCG game. My feedbacks is trying to express how I experienced the game and my feedbacks, how 2 or 3 times I just said to myself "I'm done with it", how to improve it to drive people more into it and be a commercial success.

I don't want a super noob friendly TCG like hEARTHSTONE, HEX game mechanics are way more complex and interesting. But I want HEX to have same success and population as HEARSTONE yes, having 50 twitchers, Huge community, super short tournaments qeues, interesting arenas, huge community of fans. The more people you drive into it the better it is for game survavibility, for devs incomes, updates and a game that last 10 years and more.

What I'm pointing out as a quick solution is maybe have a well designed matchmaking system arena to join and play easely. And an easy to access construct tournament with only commons/uncommons to learn the meta, the cards, to train etc... Then you go for the big mamas preconstruct, drafts, etc...but you need something to learn and practice before ! That's really not hard to implement, and will drive people more smoothely into the "hard" game formats.

I want that game to be a succes as you do you know.

Gregangel
02-22-2016, 02:39 PM
The matchmaking arena with ladder are coming soon.

whiteyzz
02-22-2016, 03:26 PM
Some things that could be fun.

Gold Drafts, everyone plays a draft game with only gold rewards, and you don't get the cards you draft for free.

Yoss
02-22-2016, 03:43 PM
Some things that could be fun.

Gold Drafts, everyone plays a draft game with only gold rewards, and you don't get the cards you draft for free.

And then Hex just gave away its primary income stream by making it F2P. Not going to happen.

whiteyzz
02-22-2016, 03:49 PM
And then Hex just gave away its primary income stream by making it F2P. Not going to happen.They don't have to happen every day, just a weekly thing to get people online and playing, vs... you know nothing?

Also what are they going to spend the gold on?

Chest spins -> Someone needs to buy something

PVP Cards -> Someone needs to buy something

PVE Cards -> You can just do PVE for gold and consistently anyways so you know... okay you get me there.

Your only reward is gold, you don't get the cards you draft.

Yoss
02-22-2016, 03:51 PM
They don't have to happen every day, just a weekly thing to get people online and playing, vs... you know nothing?

Also what are they going to spend the gold on?

Chest spins -> Someone needs to buy something

PVP Cards -> Someone needs to buy something

PVE Cards -> You can just do PVE for gold and consistently anyways so you know... okay you get me there.

Making it only happen once in a while might be OK, depending on the frequency. It's true there can be a gray area between "drafting is now F2P" and "drafting is premium content".

whiteyzz
02-22-2016, 03:54 PM
Making it only happen once in a while might be OK, depending on the frequency. It's true there can be a gray area between "drafting is now F2P" and "drafting is premium content". The thing is once or once every two days wouldn't be that bad, the problem with draft is they have 0 understanding of how to play/construct/ect draft decks and you expect them to pay money on a format new player with 0 tcg experience? People don't want to pay to get crushed and it doesn't even have to be a lot of gold. 5k for 3/0, 3k for 2/1, 2k for 1/2, 1k for 0/3. You can easily get that much gold running the arena in most likely the same amount of time or less. But what it does is get people interested in PVP, or people to get people into the idea of PVP.

Yoss
02-22-2016, 04:31 PM
New players should play Sealed Gauntlet a bunch before trying Draft. Then you get unlimited time to think and build your deck, and can change it between each game (again with unlimited time).

Elwinz
02-23-2016, 07:43 AM
I can say a lot on that matter as i came as a guy with no TCG expierience.
It first i tohught i am never gonnna be able to pvp becauuse i was aware how expensive TCGs are. But i started with the arena, farmed money, played some drafts and doing both i have made playset of set1 and 2 in 4 months.Impossible became possible. I was amazed.
Main issue right now is how rare swiss draft fires. I remember how i was crashed in comp draft at the begging. But htere was almost never an issue with swiss. I remeber maybe 1 or 2 out fo 30 swiss draft when i got 0 wins.

I really prefer quality over quanitiy. I hate seeing players calling " this game sucks its p2w" . I dont want to have such poeple in this game. They dont even understand what that term means.
Steep learning curve keeps such poeple away from game adn that i like.

jull
02-27-2016, 06:21 PM
Ok, my feedbacks a new player experiencing that game, trying to learn the curve and do something.

Have been trying to do swiss: 1h30 minutes waiting in qeue to get in, 3h30 matchs. Total 5H, where you can't leave your computer otherwise it's gg. Not really cool for new player i'd say, at all... But it was really fun and interesting I really loved that experience. But 5 hours seriously !!! I stoped playing at 2 or 3 am...got a life you know... kids, jobs, etc... I tryed get into other Swiss later on, waiting on qeues was awefull with noone coming in... been waiting 1h30 with 1 guy last time, 1 or 2 joined and leaved.....I stoped doing something else. Swiss are SUPER LONG and QEUE IS A PAIN.

So I searched for others modes (no explanations, no tutorials, check the forums and guides on tier sites or die), Someone finaly told me Gauntlet should be better, you construct/play when you want. 6 packs + 200 plats to play, total 1400 plats... not really new player friendly but why not. First Gauntlet was great, 6 interesting booster, 3 wins for my first gauntlet i though i found my thing, really. Second Gauntlet: 6 packs with a not super interesting synergy..really medium packs... tryed my best, 1 win... Well.... Third Gauntlet: 6 packs: Horrible cards, even guys on twitch told me "WTF are those packs" (I'm streaming)... lost all my matches.... Totaly pissed me off to spend 1400 platines on 6 awefull packs that even the best player in the world would have done nothing from it... I should have screenshot it and send it on that forum as an exemple (Again, there was good players on twitch saying exact same thing). I'll try another gauntlet...maybe... but who got best packs got a HUGE advantage...

So for new players we have:

- Swiss tournaments: 1h30 qeuing even more + 3 to 4 hours playing. Total: 4h30 to 5h30.... cool.... Waiting 1h30 in qeue list is... not a good experience at all. But Swiss are really cool, I'd love it to be quicker to join in I would play it H24.

- Gauntlet tournaments: Super cool to build/play whenever you want. Basicely, if you got 6 good packs you good to go, if you got 6 awefull pack your experience is ruined and you just basicely want to trow your PC true the window right ? Seems dumb... Not a good experience at all.

- Draft tournaments: The one everyone plays, all the super sharks that plays the game till Pré-Alpha 0.01, if you loose a single game you out. You don't know how to draft to get a good meta deck ? you basicely have no chance.

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo

I still love HEX, Love the arts, love the animations, love the sounds, love the cards, love the mechanics. But seriously, you guys should open your eyes how hard it is to get into tournaments.... Get easier tournaments, or make SWISS more popular that we don't have a 2h waiting qeue..

Clawdius
02-28-2016, 04:06 AM
I only skimmed this thread, but if no one else mentioned it, there is a drafting dungeon planned, where new players can get a better grasp on drafting in a PVE environment. How long that will take, no one really knows, but between set 4 and 5 we think Adventure Zone 2 will come out and we hope that several dungeons put on display years ago will finally make their way into the game. As for people saying you are bashing the game, they are overly defensive, constructive criticism should never be turned away.

Gregangel
02-28-2016, 05:33 AM
Bassicly, now is not a good time to jump in PvP. Swiss draft do not fired often (but more often than before pve released) and very bad idea to jump in competitive draft without a good knowledge of the meta 3-3-3.

Gauntlet may be the best choice but, yes like you said, ilt's a bit like a gambling game and the retourn on investment is low

So, my advise for new players is to wait until set 4 and 4-4-3 draft. New players will discover the cards in the same time veterans will. So not so meta knowledge advantage. And,most of all, swiss draft will fire every 15 minutes or so. Best time for a very high return on investment by selling the expensive new cards on the market and go infinite. (here 35 € in the game at set 3 release, 100+ draft and still counting without one more € in the game)

Until then the best things to do is read draft guide, watch youtube video or twich stream to learn.

jull
02-28-2016, 05:41 AM
I'm just reporting my experience, and hope the game will develop in the right direction. If i'd wanted to trash the game I would have skipped it long time ago and not even come here. I'm glad to hear a drafting PvE dongeon is coming, that's an amazing idea. Again, I love that game that's why I'm here giving feedbacks and talk.

Elwinz
02-28-2016, 06:25 AM
Yeah exactly what i said the current problem is swiss drafts not firing. When i started it wasnt big issue.

nicosharp
03-01-2016, 01:13 PM
Let's say the average competitive player that enjoys swiss draft, plays a swiss draft twice a week. You would need 8,064 unique players playing 2 swiss drafts per week, to have a swiss draft fire every 5 minutes during a week.

Factor in other competitive modes, cost of entry, Free PvE, set relevance, collection sizes. Let's say that 8,064 unique players for swiss modes only make up 5% of the community playing HEX, and they only would play swiss that much weekly for the first 3 months of the set.

We would need 161,280 unique players playing HEX, and a new set every 3 months to keep swiss firing every 5 minutes. Maybe someday :)

Mithris
03-02-2016, 07:56 AM
I also wish we had swiss firing more often. I prefer it over all other modes.

The main problem I see is that you can't do anything else when you are queued for a tournament.

Cryptozoic should implement a system where you can queue for a tournament, and then go play another mode until your queue is fired. Say, I could go run frost ring or dungeons, and as soon as the queue is ready, save the current game (if it is in pve using the "disconnected" tech), then instantly switch over to the tournament.

pyrovoice
03-07-2016, 01:51 AM
fantom sealed/draft where you pay gold to entry and keep a certain number of cards depending on your wins (like for a draft, the first get a rare, second 2 uncos... from his/her pack)

Zantetsuken
03-07-2016, 04:54 AM
fantom sealed/draft where you pay gold to entry and keep a certain number of cards depending on your wins (like for a draft, the first get a rare, second 2 uncos... from his/her pack)

Main problem with this is it will definitely be a heavily played tournament style for all free to play gamers and thus devalue cards. Cards have real value but giving away 200p rares for winning a free tournament that fires off constantly will quickly tank the value of those rares and thus decrease the reason anyone buys packs. Taken to the extreme, imagine if so many uncommons and rares were generated that no rare card was hard to find for more than 10p. All because no one actually purchased those cards, they simply came into existence.

HEX already has something of this issue because Drafts cost 800p yet reward 2400p worth of packs. Yet it's fine because it's only introducing more cards to the equation, which lowers the value of cards, and is offset by the tournaments that reward Platinum. More platinum existing means more purchasing power which drives card values back up.

For this to work, the gold cost for entry would need to be proportional to the value of the cards that are being awarded. Which goes to another problem: Not all rares/uncommons are worth the same. Some are worth as much as legendaries and some never sell.

Yoss
03-07-2016, 05:40 PM
HEX already has something of this issue because Drafts cost 800p yet reward 2400p worth of packs.

Drafts do not cost 800p, they cost 800p plus 24 packs, and they reward 12 packs of variable value (but certainly less total plat value than the 24 packs that were consumed) plus the contents of the 24 entry packs.


Yet it's fine because it's only introducing more cards to the equation, which lowers the value of cards, and is offset by the tournaments that reward Platinum. More platinum existing means more purchasing power which drives card values back up.

Which tournaments reward Platinum?

wolzarg
03-08-2016, 03:45 AM
Drafts do not cost 800p, they cost 800p plus 24 packs, and they reward 12 packs of variable value (but certainly less total plat value than the 24 packs that were consumed) plus the contents of the 24 entry packs.



Which tournaments reward Platinum?
The fiveshards weeklys I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with any point just answering your question.

Zantetsuken
03-08-2016, 09:05 AM
Drafts do not cost 800p, they cost 800p plus 24 packs, and they reward 12 packs of variable value (but certainly less total plat value than the 24 packs that were consumed) plus the contents of the 24 entry packs.

No, the 24 packs are not counted as you receive the full value of 3 packs per person during every draft. The packs purchased are equal to the drafted cards value so I am only looking at the REWARDS. Each draft attendee is only required to bring an additional 100p to the price of the cards they now own from drafting, yet the doled out pack rewards total 2400p instead of the 800p investment. Every time draft fires off, 1600p of stuff just magically pops into existence.

nicosharp
03-08-2016, 10:00 AM
No, the 24 packs are not counted as you receive the full value of 3 packs per person during every draft. The packs purchased are equal to the drafted cards value so I am only looking at the REWARDS. Each draft attendee is only required to bring an additional 100p to the price of the cards they now own from drafting, yet the doled out pack rewards total 2400p instead of the 800p investment. Every time draft fires off, 1600p of stuff just magically pops into existence.
Yoss is right, you need to factor in the 24 packs that are paid for the draft.
1600p value does not magically appear unless there is a skewed economy.. Which there kind of is still right now.
Unopened packs lets say = 180p value
Opened packs lets say = 120p value
So each player is paying 640p value to enter, and getting a guaranteed 360p value back.
You can then do more appropriate math for the true value difference of those 12 packs out on top of 360p guaranteed. ((180X12 + 360x8) - 640x8)

Turtlewing
03-08-2016, 11:53 AM
No, the 24 packs are not counted as you receive the full value of 3 packs per person during every draft. The packs purchased are equal to the drafted cards value so I am only looking at the REWARDS. Each draft attendee is only required to bring an additional 100p to the price of the cards they now own from drafting, yet the doled out pack rewards total 2400p instead of the 800p investment. Every time draft fires off, 1600p of stuff just magically pops into existence.

Not quite. A Draft consumes 24 packs, but rewards 24 packs worth of cards. That is a net loss on average as the utility of an unopened pack should be slightly grater than the expected value of an opened pack (because you can open them for on average the EV of an opened pack or use them to enter limited formats so they're slightly more useful).

In theory the EV for using packs to draft is higher than just opening them because the pack rewards from draft total more than the platinum entry fee. That difference then sets the value difference between unopened packs and a pack's worth of single cards.

The way the economy would work in the land of spherical cows and perfect logicians, is that an initial supply of packs would be bought from the shop, thereafter all packs would be generated as prizes by tournaments. Players who want cards for constructed would sell their prize packs for platinum (because on average a drafter will pay more than the value of the cards in the pack) then buy the singles they want. Players who want packs for draft would sell the cards they drafted and buy unopened packs.

Reality is quite a bit messier, with casual players just opening packs, PvE players buying in gold instead of platinum, primal packs, imperfect market information available to the average player, etc. So we get weird things like buying tons of packs then selling them on the AH being a net gain due to the primal pack chance, and too few people knowing about it (or being willing to foot the upfront investment) to correct the prices of the chase legendary cards that can be gotten from primal packs by opening a ton of essentially free primal packs.

Chinane
03-08-2016, 02:42 PM
Not quite. A Draft consumes 24 packs, but rewards 24 packs worth of cards.

You forgot that opened packs are worth less. Nico did a calculation for you, though his numbers could be arbitrary.

The fact remains, that a pack is worth his value because it provides tournament entry - so cards gained from opening it in the tournament are on average worth less.

Gregangel
03-08-2016, 03:18 PM
Um, it is not possible to gain plat buy selling tons of packs thanks to Primal Packs proc unless you are very very very lucky.

nicosharp
03-08-2016, 03:52 PM
Um, it is not possible to gain plat buy selling tons of packs thanks to Primal Packs proc unless you are very very very lucky.
It was and still is, it just depends on how much margin for risk you can take and the quantity you try to move. Luckily some of us have exposed a bit of the underbelly, so hopefully this is less exploited going forward by the people with the time and stomach for the AH.

Yoss
03-08-2016, 05:12 PM
No, the 24 packs are not counted as you receive the full value of 3 packs per person during every draft. The packs purchased are equal to the drafted cards value so I am only looking at the REWARDS. Each draft attendee is only required to bring an additional 100p to the price of the cards they now own from drafting, yet the doled out pack rewards total 2400p instead of the 800p investment. Every time draft fires off, 1600p of stuff just magically pops into existence.

Bolded portion above is demonstrably false for any set that is being actively drafted. It can only be true for sets where the only source of packs is the Store. Quoted below is some math I did on this years ago before we even had an economy in the game (so there's a bit of speculation). Now that we have real data, many of the unknowns are known, like what a booster goes for on the AH. Based on today's data, we can say that with a booster that costs 160p on the AH, the contents cannot reasonably be worth more than 114p without creating a profit opportunity for anyone who bothers to notice it and has time to liquidate the cards and chests.


From post 41 it sounds like you'd expect a lower bound of 133p on booster price then? This because if the contents are worth 133p, then the unopened pack must be worth at least that much because it has those contents plus the ability to be entered in Limited.

Minor quibble, you didn't account for Primals as part of the value that the 200p retail has to cover. I expect that would drop the calculated price limit a little bit. For example, when you calculated 3200p (at most), we could actually tighten that upper bound by using the upper bound from Post 2 (186p) instead of retail (200p). This gives a bound of 126p rather than 133p.

Really though, the value is variable based on AH price, by formula:
C := value of contents of an average basic pack
DF := Draft entry fee per player
B := AH price of basic booster

C <= (8*DF + 12*B)/24

with constraint B >= C (closed booster must be worth at least the value of its contents).

If we push B to the limit of that constraint (where B=C), we get a price of 67p. That limit can only hold while there is a large supply of cheap boosters (KS rewards, VIP, etc). After that, the AH supply will dry up and people will be forced to buy retail, pushing AH price above the 126p lower bound calculated in this post and up towards the 186p upper bound from Post 2.

The corollary, as you said in your second paragraph, is basically that one should always draft in order to open packs, assuming one values money over time. (The extra value gained is earned through the time spent drafting.)

(All that to say, I agree. I just like to work through it myself for understanding.)

Turtlewing
03-08-2016, 05:28 PM
You forgot that opened packs are worth less. Nico did a calculation for you, though his numbers could be arbitrary.

The fact remains, that a pack is worth his value because it provides tournament entry - so cards gained from opening it in the tournament are on average worth less.

So close. One more sentence and you'd have been there.


Um, it is not possible to gain plat buy selling tons of packs thanks to Primal Packs proc unless you are very very very lucky.

I haven't kept current on it so it's possible the market has since corrected (it should tend to take care of itself as people exploit it as the act of exploiting it should lower prices until it no longer makes sense to try), but for a while yes it was.