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View Full Version : Is lack of multiplayer/guilds hurting Hex?



OutlandishMatt
02-22-2016, 07:09 PM
Curious about everyone's opinion on the current state of Hex and how involved everyone is with the community.

I have found myself growing further from the game because there's not much to come back to. The PvE was fun, the first few run throughs, but now it's just eh. I feel like the lack of guilds and multiplayer is what keeps my distance growing more and more. Without the guild features, I have less reason to log in, same with multiplayer.

Has anyone else found themselves drifting from Hex? If so, what could draw you back in? If not, what keeps you entertained?

Matt

AdamAoE2
02-22-2016, 07:25 PM
In my opinion, their immediate priorities (After set 4, of course) should be guilds and a ladder system to get players playing competitive PvP. Not just for the increased presence of constructed PvP, but to get players talking. You want to see whos on top of the ladder, what guilds are represented. Get some competition going!

Alamand
02-22-2016, 08:01 PM
I've never been big on guilds in card games, so I can't really comment on that, but I'd agree the lack of a ladder is pretty bad.

All of the current card games have been training people that the ladder is basically the way you play constructed PvP, and the closest thing hex has to it, play random opponent, is pretty dead.

More than once I've watched some of the new players stream and try to use it to play some PvP and then sit there for 5+ minutes unable to find a match while I'm trying to explain that the feature isn't used much.

Personally I wouldn't mind if Hex joined the trend and implemented a monthly resseting ladder system with some kind of reward based on the rank you reach. It's a good system to keep people coming back, and the prizes don't have to be anything crazy, maybe a monthly PvE card somewhere in the low-middle ranks and an AA PvP for max rank to give collectors more to chase after.

Personally I'm impatiently waiting for FFA and 2 headed giant, those have always been the only form of constructed PvP I've ever cared to play.

plaguedealer
02-22-2016, 08:11 PM
I have found the campaign to be fantastic and I have played it more than I thought I would. Honestly, I believe that the campaign is the best pve card game ever made (I am old enough to play shandalar back in the day)

For me guilds is a lower priority than multiplayer. A good argument could be made that they both should come out at the same time. I will be very happy if raids come in this year.

OutlandishMatt
02-22-2016, 10:23 PM
I have found the campaign to be fantastic and I have played it more than I thought I would. Honestly, I believe that the campaign is the best pve card game ever made (I am old enough to play shandalar back in the day).

I actually bought Magic: The Gathering and Spells of the Ancients on PC back in like 1999. Also, I agree that Hex has the best PvE TCG experience but....

There are compounding factors that make me just tire out of PvE:


The Grid System. Being restricted sucks.
Cannot save decks.
I love certain races but have to get beyond Level 9 to even think of playing an off shard deck with the racial abilities.
Not every card has equipment.
We've yet to get all our PvE promos.
No co-op.

alcide
02-23-2016, 05:49 AM
I was wondering what was so hard about implementing this PvP ladder system.
I guess ,the pro TCG-players being so focused on tournaments, this ladder is a very low priority.

Khazrakh
02-23-2016, 05:59 AM
I was wondering what was so hard about implementing this PvP ladder system.
I guess ,the pro TCG-players being so focused on tournaments, this ladder is a very low priority.

The problem is that a ladder is no classical TCG concept.
They were established by all those CCGs out there up to a point where everybody coming from those games is expecting to have one in Hex as well. The classical CCG formats are Limited (Draft and Sealed) and Conscructed Tournaments and Hex is offering all that already.
Personally I don't care for a ladder what so ever and I probably wouldn't take part in ladder play much (if at all), but I can see why a lot of new players would expect one so it's in HXEs best interest to have one ASAP.

madar
02-23-2016, 06:12 AM
I am with plaguedealer, the PVE is very good, and the new playfields are awesome, and the other minor design tweaks. However, i wouldnt wait the raids into this year, because i suppose they are lvl30 content, and i guess the raids will the 4th or 5th major PVE content patch (1, up to lvl 20, 2, up to lvl30, 3, guilds and craft 4, dungeons, 5, raids). It's like 2+ years imo.

I don't miss the guilds alone, it would be pointless to get a guildtag, and have one more chat channel. If it have some functions, like guildbank, or something... but i think there is higher priorities than this

What is always drifting me away, is the zillion of the bugs, with a new patch the already OK parts goin mad again. I tried Frost Ring Arena now, and there is display bugs, the buttons unresponsible, the client crash or just hang, the enemies still run into endless loop... eh

I am fine now with the PVE, is not huge, but hey, it's just came out, you cannot expect new content in every month. If they keep doin' new content every 2-3 months (PVP and PVE in rotation) i will be ok. If not, the boredom will push back again till the next content.

Biz
02-23-2016, 06:53 AM
you probably heard this story before, but yes

the complete abscense of mmo stuff is hurting the mmotcg

Timlagor
02-23-2016, 08:37 AM
What would you have had them not do to implement this?

The ladder might be relatively straightforward but multiplayer most certainly isn't. PVE was a huge step and they've now got that mostly running smoothly (some problems seem to have appeared in Arena though so I suppose there's at least one more update before they call it done).

The next big chunk will be set 4 which I think most people would agree if a bigger draw than a ladder but ladder, and my personal hobby-horse overhauling the AH, are probably categorised as smaller changes that will come between the alternating PVP set, PVE AZ releases. I'm hoping there'll be something nice after Set 4 which I'm expecting them to to start pushing ('hyping'/'spoiling') next month.

They know they aren't up to speed on content release so it's ok for people to drift away a bit
Having said that I think a Ladder system that gave weaker players some space to compete with each other would be very good for constructed play. Possibly it should be a deck-based ladder...

Rock League coming soon though so that will liven things up a bit :-)

Losse
02-23-2016, 08:39 AM
I have followed hex since the beginning but didnt start playing till the campaign. So things are still fairly fresh for me. But I know what you are saying.

The good news is this game has a TON of potential and it looks like they will eventually implement most of what we want. But how long? 1 year, 2 years till guilds can raid content together (3 guildies vs a dungeon?)?

Right now I am still having fun with the campaign but I am using it as a tool to learn the cards that are all new to me. Planning to make 6 mono decks for all the colors, so 6 chars. (including arti as a color lol)

Recently I have been looking around to see what else is out there again. I do that every year or 2. Hex is pretty unique. Its one of the most followed/played fantasy card games as far as I can tell. Its one of the very few TCG. Most are CCG. Do any even have an auction house other than HEX?

How many TCG/CCG have 2 podcasts or more? HS and MTG probably, thats about it as far as I know.

There are several that have stopped development, including might and magic.

There are very very few that are newer and started on PC these days.

Finally, half the TCG/CCG out there have cartoon graphics which i dont care for. Hex has awesome graphics/art.

You guys do a good job with the podcast, keep them coming with news at least even if you don't play hardcore lol.

nicosharp
02-23-2016, 08:49 AM
There really is no point for guilds at the moment, and it's a challenge to try to self-create content to entertain people in a guild. I feel like I, and others went to a lot of trouble, and jumped the gun on guild creation and hype, and all I have to show for it is almost 3 years of domain name and chat server bills.

On the plus side, our guild has served other purposes (for other games) and as a testing ground for competitive play. We are also all able to bond over being old farts together.

Gwaer
02-23-2016, 09:08 AM
I came to say basically what nicosharp said. At this current iteration of PVE in game guilds wouldn't do anything but be dedicated chat rooms.

Tazelbain
02-23-2016, 09:16 AM
Personally I wouldn't mind if Hex joined the trend and implemented a monthly resetting ladder system with some kind of reward based on the rank you reach. It's a good system to keep people coming back, and the prizes don't have to be anything crazy, maybe a monthly PvE card somewhere in the low-middle ranks and an AA PvP for max rank to give collectors more to chase after.What you describe would be just give more to "haves". We need something that includes the "have nots". Ladders work best when people are an even footing. Unless the ladder goes along with format options like "3-2-1-1" or rock format ladder, you really don't have something better then current constructed gauntlet as far accessibility.

It'd nice for them to release an overview their ladder implementation.

Fred
02-23-2016, 09:25 AM
While the campaign is great and replayable and fun, the current lack of raids, guilds and any other way of interacting with other players means Hex PvE is basically a single-player game with a chat interface.

There are currently no systems in place where more than 2 people interact in a meaningful way. A chat room is not a MMO. An auction house is not an MMO, especially not the way it is implemented at the moment (the word "auction" is laughable), since it serves no other purpose than what a NPC vendor with varying prices would.

A friend of mine had heard of Hex way back then (and actually backed at the Squire tier because I pressured him into accepting how awesome that game would be), but didn't play since the KS. I showed him the campaign now that PvE is in and that the game is officially released. One of the first question he asked me is "But, where is everybody?".

The title of the kickstarter campaign that started it all is "HEX MMO Trading Card Game". A little more than 2 years later, HXE released the first ever single-player MMO.

Kroan
02-23-2016, 12:37 PM
How can you guys be so quickly done :O I'm still busy with collecting everything :|

dogmod
02-23-2016, 12:58 PM
I would say set 4 and ladder should be the very top priorities at this time.

It would be awesome to have a rock league ladder to be available to those who don't have large collections. I also agree with those who are suggesting AA awards and sleeves on a monthly or weekly basis for these ladders to help engage players beyond the simple e-peen of a number.

This would be compelling content that would allow players to group around organized play beyond the random website run tournaments.

magic_gazz
02-23-2016, 02:49 PM
What is your proposed solution?

It seems every couple of days there is a post about something Hex is "missing". Most of the time those posts are about things that we have been told are coming. I am not sure what people really expect.

The number one priority should be bringing out new sets, this is where the most money is made. The number two priority should be PvE content as this keeps people active, introduces people to the game for free, etc. Every thing else comes after that. I am sure if they could have guilds/keeps/multiplayer all tomorrow they would.

Yoss
02-23-2016, 03:04 PM
Losse, nico, and magic_gazz already said what I came to say. The game is not done yet, and yet is the best game on the market in spite of this. HXE is well aware that they need these things and they have 50 people coming to work every day full time to help make the dreams into reality. There's lots to come and of course we all want it yesterday, but here's a hint: Cory Jones wants this game "done" - not that Hex will ever be finished - more than any other human being in existence. If he could snap his fingers and make <insert feature request here> instantly appear for us bug free, he would!

So after saying all that, the only reasonable thing left to talk about is the priority order for development going forward, which we do debate frequently. I maintain a list in my sig. that tries to track what I consider a reasonable priority order, but I'm quite sure there are other opinions too.

Cernz
02-23-2016, 03:04 PM
lack of set4 hurts the pvp people, lack of multiplayer hurts the pve guys ;)

set4 is needed top urgent by now, ladderS <- S <- would be nice to have, not just for constructed, also for limited tournaments and so on.

and if they update pve to lvl 20 + 3 new races soon too -> all ppl will be happy (well not all, BK will still be negative) :D

Yoss
02-23-2016, 03:08 PM
lack of multiplayer hurts the pve guys ;)

Actually, it's not just for PvE. One of my #1 desires is for multiplayer PvP in the form of FFA, 2HG, Emperor, etc. In fact, I want to be able to do all the things that a paper game can do at the kitchen table (and more, since we're digital)!

whiteyzz
02-23-2016, 04:21 PM
There is a few problems.

PVP

- New set's required to change up the meta and craft new deck ideas.

Casual PVP

- The lack of multiplayer makes it hard for a group of friends to enjoy the game

Competitive PVP

- The lack of a new set means we've fallen into the same meta for so many years... blood decks have vampire king... sapphire decks have Reese.... diamond decks will have Angel of Dawn/living totem *yawn* been there done that. This also makes draft boring because they've been drafting the same set for a really long time.

PVE

- While adventure zone 1 is a really great taste of what PVE has to offer but it's only that. It's a taste for what's to come other then farming AZ pack legendary cards, and dungeon rares/legendary cards there isn't "that" much to do.

Mokog
02-24-2016, 02:48 PM
Guilds are groups of people used to organize, in the context of MMOs, and provide social support as well as logistical support for multiplayer experiences.

We have a need for guilds in the sense of social support but with out multiplayer implementation as a form of cooperative content we are missing a key level of content to justify guilds.

Nothing like the panacea of more content to continue to bring folks into the game and make others return.

OutlandishMatt
02-25-2016, 01:15 PM
I look at guilds as a social gathering that can do things together but do not require it. Just adding a guild chat, roster, and bank, would probably be enough to make players feel connected. I know with past MMOs, even though I didn't play the content as much I stuck around for friends. As of right now, I feel like there's no need to log in.

Deathlock
02-25-2016, 03:05 PM
I like HEX very much still, I've invested some money, but I play it less and less and less...and it makes me sad.

Here are some of my own reasons (they may be not multiplayer-related, but I don't want to create a new thread):

1. Shard-screw issue. I'm so freaking tired of it. Also i'm tired of a huge disadvantage of playing second. You may say it's a part of game design...well, may be, yes. But it's a bad design, copied from a 23-years old TCG. And even there some changes has been done recently. Every modern digital card game avoids that problem (yes, it's a problem, and I like, for example, Spellweaver's creators for understanding this). And It's just silly that HEX (wich I want to become the greatest TCG ever) just sticks to an old and pretty bad idea. I'm sure there are ways to change things with no harm to the game! Even this thread contains some pretty cool ideas. http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=47653
For example, this post: http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=47653&page=3&p=552712&viewfull=1#post552712
At least, let's test in on a test server or in a test format. Please.

2. No ladder ATM = No real way to practice competitevely out of tournaments = not much sense to make competitive decks.

3. Lack of real MMO-components. Now HEX is just a great TCG with a short singleplayer campaign, an AH and a chat.

4. The client is pretty laggy, espessialy in PVE, on slow machines. Please, include graphic settings options (like texture quality, effects on\off, shadows on\off, mist on\off, antialiasing on\off etc etc). I want to play HEX on my business-class laptop with integrated graphics, and PVE is like 20 FPS for me. Some of my friends don't play HEX because of the same reason.

Alright, thanks for reading this, I would be happy to fall in love with HEX again :)

Voormas
02-25-2016, 03:40 PM
We do have multiplayer; it's called Drafting :p

I am looking forward to Guilds being in the game, but I'm interested to hear what you think they will deliver that you can't get now from just hanging out in a private chat with the people you will eventually all be in your guild?

Either way I don't think anything is "hurting" Hex right now; the lawsuit is over, new people joining all the time to check out what all the PvE stuff is about, I mean if we gotta wait much longer for Set 4 that could start to sting but overall everything is coming up Milhouse :)

Refugee
02-25-2016, 03:41 PM
So to address the original question, multiplayer and guilds would be nice but honestly... no I don't think it's a very big deal. I have a group of gamer friends I get together with about twice a month. All are former or current magic players. The number one thing I hear from them about Hex is, "Man that game would be so great if we could all play together like this." I don't believe it at all.

Here's the thing. Digital multiplayer TCGs are probably not very fun. I'm not saying they CAN'T be fun but there need to be some pretty significant changes to how the game is played. Let's look at how a real life TCG goes vs a digital one.

Me: Land, go.
Player 1: Land, go.
Player 2: Land, go.
Player 3: Land, go.
Me: Fetch Land, I'm going to pop it and search for a Mountain. Go.
Player 1: Land, 2/2 haste. Take 2 player 3. (I finish searching for my mountain and reshuffle)
Player 2: Land, Kill the 2/2 haste, I'm going to scry 2. Go.
Player 3: Land, dropping artifact go.

That's two turns and it probably took about 60 seconds. Now let's look at the same thing in Hex.

Me: Drop a resource.
I pass priority to leave 1st main
Player 1 passes priority to leave 1st main
Player 2 passes priority to leave 1st main
Player 3 passes priority to leave 1st main
I pass priority to leave 2nd main
Player 1 passes priority to leave 2nd main
Player 2 passes priority to leave 2nd main
Player 3 passes priority to leave 2nd main
repeat 3 more times for the first round.
Me: Fetch Resource, the game waits for me to find my blood gem.
all the same priority stops again
Player 1: Land, 2/2 speed.
priority stops again
Take 2 player 3. (I finish searching for my mountain and reshuffle)
priority stops for attack phase
priority stops for blocking phase
Player 3 has to go pee. The game stops at the blocking phase until he comes back
You get the idea. And it gets worse and worse as you add players.

Raids on the other hand seem like they can work pretty smoothly. The AI can obviously pass priority back very quickly and everyone will be deciding on who to send to attack at the same time so that consolidates the entire rounds attack and block priority stops into more of an "are you ready to proceed" check for all three players at the same time.

A LOT of multiplayer magic in my opinion is socializing more than it is actually playing, and that doesn't translate particularly well to a digital medium (especially with the current chat system). I think a lot of people think fondly of playing real world TCGs and want that in Hex. I don't think that's likely to ever happen. Hex is a better TCG than any real card game I've played, but it is and probably always will be a worse social experience.

Clawdius
02-25-2016, 04:25 PM
I dunno Refugee, I type over 60wpm and I was told to keep quiet and play by some random schmo who challenged me because I was talking in chat. Then he surrendered after I beat him the first time in BO3, I guess my mulligan 3x and still winning broke his spirit. The game can be social, I've had great conversations in drafts etc, although it does make me wish that you had an extra 10 minutes time for your 3rd match in the finals of a draft. No one is waiting on you, so you can chat a bit more and think a bit more... But I guess some people would try to use that extra few minutes to annoy their opponent if they had a lot of time left from the previous rounds. Maybe instead of just a flat add of 10 minutes in the 3rd round of the final, it could be add 10 up to a maximum of 15 minutes?

I think that sort of thing could encourage a little more socialization, in some matches you count yourself lucky if you get a GL HF. It's my fault for socializing I suppose, I used to MUD and PVP at the same time so I'd be having a conversation with someone and fighting three people on the village green in Elysium. I was never that overpowered on Entropy, or NirvanaIV, so I'd limit my conversations to fighting one person and trash talking, and if I was getting attacked by two or three people I'd have to hope that I had some Shardak assistance en route.
TL;DR Back in my day we had to walk up hill in the snow both ways when we wanted to socialize on the internet. They were text based hills, and text based snow, but we did it all the same!

KOFVSCAPCOM
02-25-2016, 11:25 PM
If anyone here has ever played kingdom of loathing, that game has an interesting system for guild dungeons. I really can't picture a good way to have multiple people battling the same encounter though or any good way to balance that. But then again, that's probably why I'm not a game developer and the first zone of the campaign turned out a lot better than I thought it would.

the_artic_one
02-26-2016, 10:19 AM
I'm all for the devs stealing as much as possible from Kingdom of Loathing, there are a lot of similarities in that they're both turn based "mmos" where you don't have a lot of direct interaction with other players.

IIRC the way guild dungeons work in KOL is that there are a bunch of nodes with say 5000 enemies on them and each player contributes to defeating those enemies a few at a time. There are branching paths and boss fights with millions of hp that players fight separately to wear down over multiple battles.

The whole thing would translate really well to Hex, either for group dungeons or world events.

Kalis
02-26-2016, 10:24 AM
The problem, in my opinion, is that there really aren't any free PvP modes. I would imagine that the majority of players aren't comfortable dropping $5 to $14 every time they want to PvP.

Svenn
02-26-2016, 11:35 AM
The problem, in my opinion, is that there really aren't any free PvP modes. I would imagine that the majority of players aren't comfortable dropping $5 to $14 every time they want to PvP.

It's pretty easy to roll cards earned/winnings (even from just 1 round) into more drafts... so shouldn't really be spending much money for that. Play comp draft and if you win the first round you've got 2 packs back plus the rares you can sell. That's enough to keep going. Make it to round 3/win and you're net positive.

Yoss
02-26-2016, 01:23 PM
I'm all for the devs stealing as much as possible from Kingdom of Loathing, there are a lot of similarities in that they're both turn based "mmos" where you don't have a lot of direct interaction with other players.

IIRC the way guild dungeons work in KOL is that there are a bunch of nodes with say 5000 enemies on them and each player contributes to defeating those enemies a few at a time. There are branching paths and boss fights with millions of hp that players fight separately to wear down over multiple battles.

The whole thing would translate really well to Hex, either for group dungeons or world events.

That sounds quite nifty.

KOFVSCAPCOM
02-26-2016, 04:52 PM
I'm all for the devs stealing as much as possible from Kingdom of Loathing, there are a lot of similarities in that they're both turn based "mmos" where you don't have a lot of direct interaction with other players.

IIRC the way guild dungeons work in KOL is that there are a bunch of nodes with say 5000 enemies on them and each player contributes to defeating those enemies a few at a time. There are branching paths and boss fights with millions of hp that players fight separately to wear down over multiple battles.

The whole thing would translate really well to Hex, either for group dungeons or world events.

yeah the branching paths and non combat choices that change the zones difficulty/encounter rates were also interesting. Actually the mechanic for the sewer where people would fall get trapped and would get out faster if guild mates helped them was quite cool. Mainly I think indirect co-operation would fit this game a lot better than trying to cram multiple players together in one encounter would.

Timlagor
02-26-2016, 05:34 PM
It seemed to me that unlocking higher level characters could be done with global community challenges too.

Kalis
02-28-2016, 12:15 PM
It's pretty easy to roll cards earned/winnings (even from just 1 round) into more drafts... so shouldn't really be spending much money for that. Play comp draft and if you win the first round you've got 2 packs back plus the rares you can sell. That's enough to keep going. Make it to round 3/win and you're net positive.

That only works if you are an above average player. 50% of the population would come away from comp draft without any rewards.

Clawdius
02-28-2016, 03:50 PM
That only works if you are an above average player. 50% of the population would come away from comp draft without any rewards.

I find that many games are determined by the RNG, or simply trying to draft the same thing as someone else and winding up with a deck that isn't cohesive. I've had some really weird Drafts where both myself and my opponent drew shard after shard (him up to a total of 12, I had gone first and wound up going 14 shards out of the 17 in the deck between what was in my starting hand before he drew a couple of cards and ended the stalemate). I've also seen people mulligan 4-5x and at that point if you opponent took any starting hand they've got enough card advantage to have a significantly higher chance to win. I used to draft super low curve aggro orcs in 2 2 1 that worked out really well because I would be able to have 16 shards and nothing I had to play cost more than 4 or 5 (and even then it was typically a card or two that would be capable of winning the game for me in the right circumstances).

Plus in comp draft there's always the chance you get a bye, and then you're home free for the first round and will score 2 packs no matter what happens afterward. Of course there's an awful lot of thumb twiddling to do while you wait around, but for the easy W I'll take it. Of course it definitely helps to have skill, but with some deck flavors *cough* spiders *cough* you need luck too or you're just going to lose because you didn't pray hard enough for RNGesus to smile down upon you.

And hey, if you do lose in round one, you can go back to grinding the frost ring arena for gold to buy packs and/or trade for platinum.

sukebe
02-28-2016, 05:44 PM
I'm all for the devs stealing as much as possible from Kingdom of Loathing, there are a lot of similarities in that they're both turn based "mmos" where you don't have a lot of direct interaction with other players.

IIRC the way guild dungeons work in KOL is that there are a bunch of nodes with say 5000 enemies on them and each player contributes to defeating those enemies a few at a time. There are branching paths and boss fights with millions of hp that players fight separately to wear down over multiple battles.

The whole thing would translate really well to Hex, either for group dungeons or world events.

I really hope they copy at least some of these ideas as they sound like a lot of fun and seem like they would work very will in Hex :-)


The problem, in my opinion, is that there really aren't any free PvP modes. I would imagine that the majority of players aren't comfortable dropping $5 to $14 every time they want to PvP.

Well, you can always play your friends for free. Also we have the head to head queue which only costs 100 plat per player and lets you do a best 2 out of 3 with one other person to win a pack. Then, on top of that you have all the player run tournaments which are generally free and have been having better and better prizes. Finally, you can always sell gold to other players for plat and used that to enter the booster drafts, sealed and even constructed tournaments. It doesn't even take all that long compared to what other games that claim to be free to play usually require.

Honestly, this seem like plenty of free (or very cheap) pvp to me. Eventually they will be adding some sort of ladder which I assume will require random games in the proving grounds so that will add even more pvp that is free to play.

RanaDunes
02-29-2016, 10:36 AM
We do have multiplayer; it's called Drafting :p


I believe what they mean by Multiplayer is the Raids.

Vorpal
02-29-2016, 02:57 PM
There's nothing to do in multiplayer and guilds until they get raids in.

I feel like raids should be the priority after set 4.

Keeping the lights on at the office with regular releases of new pvp cards is of course always the top priority.

DreamPuppet
02-29-2016, 04:27 PM
Love the PVE campaign. Quite perturbed that my $250 raid leader tier is still completely useless 3 years in. Just transfer raid leader tiers into dungeon crawlers or something.

fido_one
02-29-2016, 04:49 PM
I think the biggest thing hurting Hex right now is how few people know about it. I think there is enough there to get people interested (even with Raids, etc. a while down the road) and the community going but the press has been... well it' hasn't been that great.

I've been wondering why Penny Arcade hasn't said anything - they drove a lot of people to the KS, spot checked it during the law-suit, and haven't said bumpkiss on the game since. Given Gerry and Mikes' proclivity to other TCGs (at least as far as I could follow), and their initial excitement during the KS, I figure they would have weighed in after the campaign launch.

Regardless, the game isn't getting any worse, but I do wish the press would weigh in a bit more, the multiplayer and guild bits won't mean diddly if people don't know the game exists in the first place.

Jugg
02-29-2016, 05:48 PM
I think the biggest thing hurting Hex right now is how few people know about it. I think there is enough there to get people interested (even with Raids, etc. a while down the road) and the community going but the press has been... well it' hasn't been that great.

I've been wondering why Penny Arcade hasn't said anything - they drove a lot of people to the KS, spot checked it during the law-suit, and haven't said bumpkiss on the game since. Given Gerry and Mikes' proclivity to other TCGs (at least as far as I could follow), and their initial excitement during the KS, I figure they would have weighed in after the campaign launch.

Regardless, the game isn't getting any worse, but I do wish the press would weigh in a bit more, the multiplayer and guild bits won't mean diddly if people don't know the game exists in the first place.

You explained why they aren't yourself. They did, a lot, and the game just took too long to shape up so they've moved on. We need to face the fact that hype for hex has died in the ass completely We really SHOULDN'T start rehyping it, until all the major features are in place, we have a super solid 'New Player Experience' and sets are being released regularly.

Stormlight
02-29-2016, 05:56 PM
Love the PVE campaign. Quite perturbed that my $250 raid leader tier is still completely useless 3 years in. Just transfer raid leader tiers into dungeon crawlers or something.

From the patch notes for Chronicles of Entrath: Chapter 1


Guild Master and Raid Leader players will earn the Dungeon Crawler bonus until their features are in-game

Are you not getting the Dungeon Crawler bonus?

DreamPuppet
02-29-2016, 06:31 PM
From the patch notes for Chronicles of Entrath: Chapter 1


Are you not getting the Dungeon Crawler bonus?

I guess i need to learn to read better and play on that account...lol. Thanks!!

Clawdius
02-29-2016, 07:02 PM
You explained why they aren't yourself. They did, a lot, and the game just took too long to shape up so they've moved on. We need to face the fact that hype for hex has died in the ass completely We really SHOULDN'T start rehyping it, until all the major features are in place, we have a super solid 'New Player Experience' and sets are being released regularly.

Absolutely, and because Guilds aren't in place, bugs are commonly encountered that are INSANELY counter intuitive (connected to the chat server? Cool beans, not actually connected to the game server, no information about that given to you anywhere, don't reconnect "just in case" within 5 minutes and you lost to inactivity timeout). Or my personal favorite, the fact that years after Drafts were introduced and people started asking "Can I actually leave this draft, I've done all my games, do I forfeit my prizes if I don't wait until it's over?" it is still one of the most commonly asked questions.

At this point I'm starting to feel like Hex is an in ground swimming pool with eighteen inches of water in it. The -last- thing we should do right now is install a diving board. Lets try to fill up the pool a bit, maybe consider installing a filter attached to the drain instead of just letting it pour water out into the soil. It's baffling that they removed the beta tag, it really is, because now we've got a pool that's not just open to the general public, it has no warning that anything remains unfinished. And they get in, and the water is 18 inches deep, and they get out and leave. There are a lot of those people we may never get back.

There are so many tiny QOL changes like the forfeit button turning into a leave button when your matches are over that would literally take one person less than one day to fix. They're still here, literally years later. A server connection indicator, green for all systems go, yellow for latency, red for disconnected. Bonus points if you can click it and reconnect to the server without having to completely restart the client.

I just pray that they finally start to fix some of this stuff, 4.7 is the last Unity 4 update - Unity has moved on. Hex's software engineers can implement whatever hacky fixes they want to and not worry that a new Unity update will drop and break their code. I was honestly surprised that they fixed the squashed Frost Ring Arena art already. I honestly expected that to take at least six months. That's where my expectations are for the HXE software engineers.

The art and card design are absolutely amazing, but I can't help but feel like I could have learned to code and fixed the "forfeit" button issue myself by now if I had access. If code could spontaneously generate, and a character of code was generated every time someone asked if they could safely leave a tourney they were eliminated from, the code would have written itself by now. Maybe they were expecting some of their issues could be addressed by future Unity updates to the 4 series code, but now that 4.7 is the end of that line, the time to actually start fixing stuff is upon us. I mean we went a year without a new PVP set so they could migrate the game to a newer version of Unity I guess? But we don't even have a release date for set 4. At this rate it really wouldn't surprise me if they announced it as July 21st. Then instead of saying "We had one set come out in all of 2015" I could say "Hex said they wanted to do three sets a year, but lately they've only released one a year". Did they release set 2 too soon? I mean a lot of people felt like they did, they released a new set before the game was in open beta, but we were told it was necessary to keep the meta fresh. That made sense, until they left us with an unaltered meta for limited players for an entire year. Yes, TM was removed, so constructed players had a bit of a shake up. but at the end of the day there was still one set for all of 2015. What is taking so long? It can't be all the pretty 360 degree city scenes, they had those in the Kickstarter, I guess they were implemented by Gas Powered Games.

There was no mention of GPG's involvement in the Hex project before they went to Kickstarter, during the Kickstarter campaign. I'm not even sure that composer Michael Shapiro was supposed to mention that HXE (potentially) had little to no involvement in the coding of their game prior to the Kickstarter. I was outright lied to and ripped off by Confederate Express, that game will never exist. But I feel more like Hex was the bait and switch Kickstarter. They showed us a beautiful Corvette from up the block, behind a fence. They said we'd get the keys in September, all we had to do was sign on the dotted line and pay TT&L and she was ours, she only needed a little work. Sadly the vehicle apparently had no interior, no engine, transmission, and just enough of the suspension system to hold tires onto the frame. Compare this to Pillars of Eternity, which started off as Project Eternity. They had no screenshots at the start of the project, no in game video because they hadn't even started to work on any aspect of the game at all. Over the next 30 months the developers at Obsidian created a game from the ground up, they built new and interesting lore, what I consider to have been one of the most inspired endings of one of the best RPGs I have played, all on the back of having literally no tools when they started. Contrast this with the Hex Kickstarter, where they show off so much of the content that has just now made it into the game. To me the major difference is realism, even though they were delayed 11 months from their April of 2014 release date projection, they made the full game from having no screenshots or lore to discuss during the KS to having a released game in March of last year. Eleven months from September of 2013, the projected release date for the beta (which as an industry standard term generally means a feature complete build, and I'll note too that the "alpha" "stretch goal" wasn't even ready by that point) it was two months before set 3 would release, which would be the last set Hex players would see until some still unspecified point in the future.

I can't say that Hex is the Kickstarter game that has taken the longest to get from being backed to being released. I can, however, say that if this is what Hex considered a release worthy title I'm disappointed. There's not even the "It's still beta guys" leg to stand on. Now it's just... what? Certainly no culpability, no admittance that perhaps things didn't go as planned because of this that or the other. Not even the slightest mea culpa.

It's depressing, it really is, because I love the art, the card design, the lore and the concepts behind Hex. But I feel like some flavor of nepotism led to the reigns of the engineering department to be handed over to someone who was still wet behind the ears. Or maybe there's a high employee turnover rate. Those few times I've talked to anyone who works for HXE they seem like great people but FFS the HTC Vive went from a surprise announcement to a real physical product in less than a year. If Hex Entertainment LLC was working on Valve Time instead of off the soon™ standard, they would probably have at least managed to have more than one set in 2015. And I know that people are going to claim that it was the PVE that caused this delay, or that the engine migration was time consuming, or that sunspots resulted in their Cisco networking hardware malfunctioning.

I don't really care at this point, I just want to see the game get better. I want a few dozen patches to come out with as long a list of bug fixes as this last patch, because there are still that many bugs lurking around. I don't care how much better the AI has gotten, it still heatwaves an empty board, it still takes starting hands with 0 shards. It accomplishes the goal of feeling like playing against a real person at times, usually a five year old throwing a temper tantrum. But, hey, I guess they never specified how old a person the AI was supposed to feel like we were playing against. They never said that we would see Junkyard Dogs dungeon, or The Kraken's Gold dungeon at any specified timeframe. I was told when I asked why we hadn't seen Corey stream a dungeon "further in the future" like he said he would in update 15 that could literally mean any time at all and not be the least bit disingenuous.

I'm praying to Xentoth that we're finally going to get the momentum we need, that this game can actually start producing content regularly, that this game can increase the player retention rate (which in my experience via friends I have introduced to the game is an admittedly subjective 0%). But the middle of the day on a Thursday we had major server issues while a popular streamer was trying out the game. You think he'll be back? I couldn't say, but I know if I caught that stream and saw those issues I'd be far less inclined to try this game out. And we need word of mouth, all games suffer player churn, but we need a loyal fanbase for this game to thrive.

I'd love to wake up on April 4th and be able to say "I can't think of a single bug that has been in Hex for two years, not even a minor visual problem that confuses every new player when they're eliminated from their first tournament".

Ben
03-01-2016, 03:39 AM
When Hex was released on kickstarter i jumped on it because I'm an MMO player. Two years in, soon to be three and there's nothing that resembles an MMO. What we have is a single player card game with promises that there will be multiplayer aspects down the line. Hex due to being online removes the social aspect which to me is half if not most of the enjoyment in a TCG and replaces it with more single player seclusion that not even ARPG's suffer from. If the plan is to continue on with the single player storyline maybe it's time to drop the MMO tag altogether.

If I went to a card store and brought up Hex, more than likely no one would know what it was and trying to get friends into a TCG MMO that isn't exactly an MMO yet is hard to say the least. It's hard to promote a game when the genre is only half right and the social aspect which is very important for a TCG has been lost in a big way.

Hex has so much potential, this much is obvious. But right now if you want to play a TCG, there's multiple different ones out there that will dwindle the player base. If you're in it for the MMO experience, it may not be implemented for years.

With that said, Hex to me has an identity crisis and if you're not going to focus on the social aspect in the form of raids, focus on PVP. Otherwise years will go by and Hex will be in the same state as it is now, balancing different game modes unsuccessfully and slow.

Gattou
03-01-2016, 03:40 AM
I'm praying to Xentoth that we're finally going to get the momentum we need, that this game can actually start producing content regularly, that this game can increase the player retention rate (which in my experience via friends I have introduced to the game is an admittedly subjective 0%). But the middle of the day on a Thursday we had major server issues while a popular streamer was trying out the game. You think he'll be back? I couldn't say, but I know if I caught that stream and saw those issues I'd be far less inclined to try this game out. And we need word of mouth, all games suffer player churn, but we need a loyal fanbase for this game to thrive.
When the campain was released, i showed the game to a highscool friend which was a Magic fan (the perfect target for Hex). He's playing HS and told me yesterday that he uninstalled the game last week end.
There is so much to say, i understang your feeling Clawdius. Before talking about new features, there is so many things to improve int he current contents. The major thing i don't understand is... why do i have to pass priorities in PVE when i can't play cards ? I always have to click (i know the shortcuts but new players don't), and the game can detect if i can play something or activate something.

Even if the game and the concept is cool. When i talked to my friends about this game 50% installed it at least once and 10% of them are playing it. For those who played it once, it's nearly impossible to make them change their mind.

I'll just hibernate and come back in 6 months... again.

madar
03-01-2016, 04:52 AM
The major thing i don't understand is... why do i have to pass priorities in PVE when i can't play cards ? I always have to click (i know the shortcuts but new players don't), and the game can detect if i can play something or activate something.

[wormoid hydra] played a resource, do you want to respond? *** no ty, i don't have anything, F10
[wormoid hydra] look! i have this worm here, popping out from underground! isn't beautiful? *** yea, nice, nice, F10
[wormoid hydra] look! i have another one! they are cute, don't you think? *** yea, nice, but can't help... F10
[wormoid hydra] well, you are not so communicative, but look, here is another coming to the surface! *** yea, nice, but i still can't say anything... F10
[wormoid hydra] pfff, you are very unfriendly, i attack you with this guys then *** ok, ok, i don't stay front of your worms, F10
[wormoid hydra] oh you are not so healthy, are you ok? i put this "thing" into underground, guess what is it? *** i cannot imagine, can we hurry?, F10

...

Fateanomaly
03-01-2016, 05:08 AM
For me, needing to keep passing priority is not a problem. The problem is the unresponsiveness of the game/server. When you click on the pass priority, the game can fail to react then when you click it again, oops you just skipped your battle phase. So i often have to click it and wait a while for it to react. Worse still is when it actually hangs up and i have to exit and relogin into the game. This really reduces the play experience.

Mahes
03-01-2016, 08:00 AM
A lot of good points

I left this game a couple of months ago. I occasionally come back to the forums in the hope that maybe things will have changed.

I loved their idea when I read that Kickstarter. I too, like everyone else, felt that the game had already been mostly finished save for polish. Nearly 3 years later, the game is now released. The thing is, it is not the game that was advertised. It is not the game that was supposed to distinguish itself from all other games. The whole process has struck me as odd. I remember the commotion that erupted on the forums when they decided to open the game to the public. They opened the game but did not call it Open Beta. They even stressed this point. Now the game is released but the game is still not what was promised in the Kickstarter.

I left this game. I see no reason to return and I know the game. I have been a part of it since the KS. In its current state, I do not understand how they would expect a new player to try this game and want to really stay with it. Now this is all opinion, but I just cannot understand or see the opposite side of the coin. Maybe I am wrong and there indeed is a strong market for the current state of the game and they will succeed beyond everyone's imagination.

I just no longer have the faith that they will....

Chinane
03-01-2016, 08:41 AM
To be fair, the PvE part is probably the most fun singleplayer TCG experience since Shandalar :)

(Yeah I know, that's probably no consolation for KS backers, which I'm luckily not.)
Looking at the current state of the game, I really wonder where those 2 Mil from KS and subsequent plat sales apply...

Clawdius
03-01-2016, 10:49 AM
I woke up expecting to see a bunch of refutations, and people telling me to be patient for the umpteenth time. I mean, I hope that the 100k tourney brought a lot of money into the Gameforge and HXE coffers, because the preparations for it seem to have reduced official communication to less than feels adequate. I don't think we retained a lot of players from the draw it presented, and although it's nice that we've got Jeff Hoogland both looking to rake people over the coals in constructed gauntlet and writing articles about decks he has built...

We need some official HXE input, not here really, but the currency conversion issue and the ability to respond to your own card (where you're not trapped in some weird limbo hoping your opponent plays something you can then respond to) really should get some attention.

I've been privileged to be a part of this community from May of 2013 onward, and there are a lot of great people I've been happy to have met because of Hex. But it really does feel as though the official responses to legitimate questions have fallen by the wayside. Is it in preparation of the 100k invitational? I hope so, I hope the answer is that straightforward.

I'd like to think I learned two things from my experiences in the Elemental: War of Magic forums. One was to resist the urge to assure everyone that the mysterious developer build must be copacetic, and the other was not to instinctively jump to the defense or stamp out flames where people had legitimate grievances. In my own way I've always been brash, and I have always despised any hint of chicanery, but E:WoM taught me that even companies with a storied past can be too close to a thing and not see the bigger picture in proper focus.

I'd ask of you to bear in mind that before you accuse any of us who have spoken out about the ways we feel the developers may have lost their way, or that we had been misled through lies of omission... We're still here in whatever capacity. We still care about the progress of this game. While criticism may seem like it comes from a place of ill will, the only way you can actively accurately criticize a thing is if you know it well enough. You have to care enough about it to have at least learned the inconsistencies, the baffling decisions (four clicks on buyout price sorts by lowest buyout? Who tries that by intuition?) and the memories both good and bad we foster drive our passion for the game. When it's a game like Hex where we are kept so far out of the loop we would be better off asking the CIA our questions. At least "I can not confirm nor deny" is an answer. It's not a very good one, but it's a response.

I finally completely understand so much of what was left for us to uncover, the fact that Gas Powered Games developed so many of the initial building blocks, that CZE isn't even really so much creating Hex as they are outsourced by Hex Entertainment LLC. Why it's impossible for Hex Entertainment LLC to have been forthright about so many ideas, not just because they're subject to change and the conceivable backlash that could generate, but because the market has become diverse and it's all together too possible that a more streamlined developer could ape some great ideas and HXE would at best be tied up in litigation. When it comes to fighting legal battles, indie companies are sort of best off trying to avoid them whenever possible. I watched Aureal develop an arguably better sound card than Creative Labs, and then I watched as Creative Labs bankrupted Aureal with frivolous lawsuits.

But a lack of developer presence on the forums hurts in an indie community. I know for a fact that players and fans will stand behind projects that take seemingly forever, they just need to know what they're in for. Kenshi is an excellent story where a man saw the game he wanted to play did not exist and set about making it before the indie boom, so he had to use Ogre3D and code all his logic himself, much of that while working as a night security guard to pay the bills. It has been a long time coming but that game is finally approaching the .9 beta where so many of his ideas will finally see the light of day. And while some in the community decried the lack of front page updates, Captain Deathbeard himself was there on the forums to help squash bugs or speak up in a forum thread. He even responded to the lack of regular frontpage updates by updating it more regularly, but the same cadre of people continued to say he didn't update enough. Hell I have seen people in the Starbound forums of not enough communication and they update their news almost every day.

It's easy to think that there's no amount of capitulation that will satisfy everyone, and while that's certainly true to some extent... I really feel like the Currency Conversion issue, the disparity presented by only being able to respond to your own card when someone else responds to your card... Those things need answers. And if you could get a simple guild tag, roster, and chat system in before the third anniversary of the Kickstarter, that'd be great.

Cowbot
03-02-2016, 05:47 AM
I want to play with my friends, not just against my friends.

I can't even get a circle of friends together to play this game because all games are 1v1, and if I play with them I inevitably crush them with my superior knowledge and collection, or "let them win". Hex is a wonderful game and I play it every week, but it is a single player game. The MMO in the title is an outright lie.

I completely agree with Clawdius on every point. I hope HXE takes these critiques seriously. I really care about this game because even in its broken, half-made state, I have an absolute blast playing it.

Oddly, what has kept me in the game as long as I've been in has been my guild (Hexagoons). Developing and implementing creative solutions to boredom has kept the game fresh for me.

Cowbot
03-02-2016, 05:56 AM
Just an idea that occurred to me just now:

People are calling for the implementation of guilds, but my guild has kept me playing Hex. Mission accomplished? :-)

lightreaper
03-02-2016, 06:13 AM
@Clawdius I agree with a lot of your points, and would love to hear some feedback from Phenteo regarding your excellent questions, but I must also correct you that they have been very forthright about why they removed holding priority and have certainly not ignored it. You might not agree with the reasons given, but they have been given.

fido_one
03-02-2016, 07:57 AM
wall of text

Clawdius, you bring up a lot of points that I reluctantly agree with. But you lose me every time you 'go behind the curtain' and say what HexEnt has been focusing or what happened with GPG or the motivations behind HexEnt and their employees. We don't know any of that. There are complexities there we will never have insight to, that's just the way it works. Even picking up little tid-bits of info over the years from orange posts on the matter doesn't give any credence to your thoughts on the matter.

There are times I worry that HexEnt is starting to lose it's way. But the community is awesome. The PvP and PvE are unrivaled right now and super engaging. They need work. I agree that the 'beta', 'release' and other tags have backfired. I have many times winced on their communication, which while sometimes awesome, mostly leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

And the timing. Yes. It's been atrocious. But the game we thought of is still being developed, and we have enough here that we know it is being developed by the best set of people in the industry. The game we envisioned will come, and when it does, it will be called 'Hex' and be made by 'HexEnt'.

I honestly believe if the game doesn't come soon or in the next 5 years, we'll never see it. This is the best chance we have at a game like this. There is momentum, I too am worried about that momentum slowing down and jeopardizing success, or where they could be focusing some of their talent on, but they're still working hard to give the KS game that was advertised.

Reading Mahes post, knowing he's been here from the start, stings a bit, but the game will be here in 1-4 years with all this stuff and then some. If we make it there. If we do, the game will stand by itself, history aside, and there will be nothing else like it. If it fails, then we'll never see a 'real' TCGMMO in our lifetime is my guess. So concerns and timing aside, I still have faith in what they will deliver.

Gwaer
03-02-2016, 11:00 AM
The only losing their way I'm worried about is removing effects from the stack, and not letting people respond to their own effects. Basically the simplification of the game. It was pitched as the game for tcg players. And is pivoting to a more simplified game to I feel the detriment of the gameplay with not really a great improvement of upkeep to newer players. I feel like all of the depth could have been maintained and they went a different way with allowing you to autopass unnecessary triggers with a hold priority button for the cases when you actually wanted to react to them. Also, they could have used that same button to allow you to react to your own abilities after your opponent chose not to react to them. Unfortunately I think a large number of people in the dev team are enamored by hearthstone and feel that should move further that direction. Which is such a big mistake from my perspective.

Clawdius
03-03-2016, 01:01 AM
I must also correct you that they have been very forthright about why they removed holding priority and have certainly not ignored it. You might not agree with the reasons given, but they have been given.
And yet I am not talking about the initial response, but rather the long thread currently going on in the forums. Ossuary makes what I'd call an excellent suggestion that seems like it should completely removes the concern of holding priority limiting the back and forth gameplay in Hex.

I was pretty clearly referencing the fact that I felt two other threads should have official responses. I never said that there wasn't an official line of reasoning for the initial change, although it was so poorly communicated at the time of that change that it wound up with a huge thread in the bug reports forum, before it got that response you're referring to. The topic has come back up in the thread started by Jeff Hoogland but you'd have a lot of reading to catch up on it all: http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=48110


Just an idea that occurred to me just now:

People are calling for the implementation of guilds, but my guild has kept me playing Hex. Mission accomplished? :-)
By that logic they never had to release Guild Wars. I mean I joined Guild KOS after the E3 for everyone event, and many of us have stuck together gaming together ever since. Or maybe a game that is "released" and bills itself as an "MMO" might ought to have some actual guild tools available in the game.


Clawdius, you bring up a lot of points that I reluctantly agree with. But you lose me every time you 'go behind the curtain' and say what HexEnt has been focusing or what happened with GPG or the motivations behind HexEnt and their employees. We don't know any of that. There are complexities there we will never have insight to, that's just the way it works. Even picking up little tid-bits of info over the years from orange posts on the matter doesn't give any credence to your thoughts on the matter. I never said that I knew, anything about what went on behind the scenes, just that I felt like nepotism would explain a lot. I said I hoped that a lot of focus was going into the invitational, and that after it was over we'd see more active developer forum participation. And I said I felt that it was disingenuous that it was never mentioned that another company had done most of the actual software development up to the point we were shown in the Kickstarter. But I never claimed to know what was going on - and that's the problem. Your defense is "You can't know, because Hex players are like Mushrooms - kept in the dark and fed manure". Yes, it's true, I can't know and actually if you read what I wrote I never claimed to. I just said that I felt this, or that I hoped that.

It's kind of like if you hired me to paint your house, I showed you a room that was finished in one day, but didn't mention that I had outsourced all the work to a team. Once it starts taking me weeks to finish the second room, you'd probably feel that representing someone else's work (as far as the software, CZE did the design and art) as my own was flagrant abuse of your trust. That's my opinion, you don't have to share it. Hell, if you want to, I'll even paint your house. Slowly, I'll shoot for three rooms a year, but we can call it good so long as I manage a room a year right?


Reading Mahes post, knowing he's been here from the start, stings a bit, but the game will be here in 1-4 years with all this stuff and then some. If we make it there. If we do, the game will stand by itself, history aside, and there will be nothing else like it. If it fails, then we'll never see a 'real' TCGMMO in our lifetime is my guess. So concerns and timing aside, I still have faith in what they will deliver.I've never claimed that I have lost faith, I just feel like Hex Entertainment LLC is supporting a "released" product now, and their lack of community involvement isn't conducive to bringing new players into the game. Also it's cool how Mahes has been here from the start, but I'm just a sack of chopped liver who happens to have the same join date.


The only losing their way I'm worried about is removing effects from the stack, and not letting people respond to their own effects. Basically the simplification of the game. It was pitched as the game for tcg players. And is pivoting to a more simplified game to I feel the detriment of the gameplay with not really a great improvement of upkeep to newer players. I feel like all of the depth could have been maintained and they went a different way with allowing you to autopass unnecessary triggers with a hold priority button for the cases when you actually wanted to react to them. Also, they could have used that same button to allow you to react to your own abilities after your opponent chose not to react to them. Unfortunately I think a large number of people in the dev team are enamored by hearthstone and feel that should move further that direction. Which is such a big mistake from my perspective.
Mostly what concerns me is unilateral decision making with no community involvement. When you wind up with changes you made finding their way into your bug reports forum, it's because you're not doing a good job of communicating the changes you're making before you make them. It also prevents the community from offering constructive feedback. Which is a shame, because there are a lot of great people in this community and some of them have ideas of merit that should be considered.

I mostly worry that I see so many of the same knee-jerk defense mechanisms here that I was part of in the Elemental War of Magic forums. We can't tell them that releasing one piece of PVE content and once piece of PVP content in all of 2015 is great, keep up the good work. Their pipeline for producing content needs to be fleshed out, and they need to be able to represent that, but in not projecting a release date or even letting players beta test set 4 alongside the Invitiational participants (Guild Wars E3 for Everyone event springs to mind). It's a disappointment, in a long series of disappointments. Every time I'm eliminated from a tournament before the end and it says "forfeit" all these years after Draft was introduced I die a little inside because that really just can't be that hard to fix.

I've just watched so many projects come together in the time I've watched Hex move sideways. Now we finally have some of what was shown off in the Kickstarter video almost three years ago. The reason they're having problems with player retention is not because the game needs to be more like Hearthstone by any stretch of the imagination. Hex was a great idea when it was first announced, and while I feel like they've put a lot of time into polishing the mechanics and such... There's really just no excuse for some of the simple to fix

Gwaer
03-03-2016, 01:24 AM
Painting houses and software development have literally nothing in common. Even seasoned developers with tons of tried and true projects have others that slip multiple years. The time hex has been developed in is actually astonishing. I've been a game tester for almost 2 decades. I've been in on a number of projects that were great successes that took substantially longer to create and were less ambitious. A ton of the complaints with hex can be boiled down to a couple of broad categories. 1) the people involved with hex have never been and have no business being involved on this level of game development. They weren't prepared for it. And don't understand what a best case and worst case actually look like. 2) hex people aren't equipped to explain the situation to people. Either because of inability to discuss issues, or unwillingness to do so. I have concerns. I've said as much, but I'll still go to bat for what they've done in the amount of time it had been done. It's quite the accomplishment and they should be proud of it. I'd have probably made people wait significantly longer for the original kickstarter beta and have shifted the entire game back a year. Its possible that wasn't an option for many reasons. But hindsight is always better. Many challenges have come and gone and since we're getting the goods practically as soon as they're done with no buffer we aren't yet insulated from those things. Hopefully one day they'll get far enough ahead that we don't have that issue anymore. That'll do wonders for setting release targets and hitting them.

Kalis
03-03-2016, 01:37 AM
Ya the kickstarter implied that the game was mostly done and had a delivery date of Sep 2013. Now I assumed that meant both the pvp and pve parts of the game. Yet it takes 2.5 years or so to get the first real PvE content and it is a fairly small amount. If they want to get more players or even retain those they have then they need to show that they are stepping up the pace. The next PvE zone needs to come out within months not years.

Clawdius
03-03-2016, 01:40 AM
Painting houses and software development have literally nothing in common.
Okay, but the metaphor was one about representing other people's work as your own. That can be an issue, can't it?

Hopefully one day they'll get far enough ahead that we don't have that issue anymore. That'll do wonders for setting release targets and hitting them.
There too we agree, with 4.7 being the final unity release, they can finally start to implement some really janky fixes for engine problems that are interfering with the things they're doing, without worrying about a Unity update breaking them.

At the end of the day Gwaer I didn't write all of my first post to get other people venting as well, but I did write the second to try to keep people in mind that those of us who are part of this community, even when we express discontent, are here because we love Hex.


Ya the kickstarter implied that the game was mostly done and had a delivery date of Sep 2013. Now I assumed that meant both the pvp and pve parts of the game. Yet it takes 2.5 years or so to get the first real PvE content and it is a fairly small amount. If they want to get more players or even retain those they have then they need to show that they are stepping up the pace. The next PvE zone needs to come out within months not years.
And that's what was disingenuous, was it was a commonly quickly answered topic in the Kickstarter posts. Answered by other users, PVE will be in beta, etc. They never corrected our mistaken assumption and by definition that's a lie of omission.

Clawdius
03-03-2016, 01:41 AM
whoops

Here have todays CAD comic, the permalink isn't up yet but Tim has the website on his comics if you're interested in more of his work. I may even replace this with the permalink to the site itself tomorrow.

http://www.cad-comic.com/cad/20160302

Ben
03-03-2016, 02:57 AM
At the end of the day Gwaer I didn't write all of my first post to get other people venting as well, but I did write the second to try to keep people in mind that those of us who are part of this community, even when we express discontent, are here because we love Hex.

This was always going to happen regardless of your post. Hex was marketed as a MMOTCG and that simply isn't true. Negative comments aren't always a bad thing and this thread has a point. It's a question that should be asked.

I certainly expected a ~2 year wait, but how much longer does one have to wait for the genre to actually be correct.

Clawdius
03-03-2016, 11:53 AM
This was always going to happen regardless of your post. Hex was marketed as a MMOTCG and that simply isn't true. Negative comments aren't always a bad thing and this thread has a point. It's a question that should be asked.

I certainly expected a ~2 year wait, but how much longer does one have to wait for the genre to actually be correct.

Yeah but I still kinda feel like I hijacked it. Even though this thread was supposed to be about guild chat and implementation potential, it has now become another thing entirely. And now a thread where someone wants to discuss the plethora of Kickstarter features that still aren't implemented is seemingly becoming more about guild chat than it might otherwise be.

It's a shame though, because people on both sides of the guild chat argument seem to be expressing disbelief in the developers. Those who are in favor of it can't believe that such a simple project which will prove the basis of so much else hasn't been accomplished. Those who are against it seem like they must doubt the developers ability to code it, at all or within a timely fashion, without sidetracking another major feature. Which would seem to mean either they think that the HXE software development crew is small enough to fit into a phone booth, and can't spare one person to implement another chat channel, guild tags, and a guild bank (maybe it has to be purchased for gold, that could provide a foundation for future stronghold upgrade features code wise). Or, worse, they've just come to expect nothing at all from them.

Even if it's not your intention, saying that a feature that should take one person a few days at most to implement shouldn't be done because it will distract them, seems to me to be more insulting than expressing discontent that it has yet to be done. Then again I guess you could declare that any number of things are implicit in any given point, so it's a vacuous argument.

dogmod
03-03-2016, 05:08 PM
Set 4 just got me super hyped again...

But it reinforced the need for tiered ladder system and free constructed queues.

Competitive ladder based off payed constructed tournaments
Constructed ladder for free queue
Constructed ladder for rock league or other cheap formats

Associate weekly or monthly rewards of AAs, Sleeves, Chat avatars with these. Create profile page to hold this information. Create ladder page to peruse who is the top of each of these ladders to get motivation.

That is a lot of things I know. If the game had those things right now the competitive scene would be thriving so much more.

Gwaer
03-03-2016, 06:05 PM
If the game had those things right now the competitive scene would be thriving so much more.

Disagree. We've had a single set for 8 months. It's possible constructed might be closer to being solved by this point if there was more incentive to play, and we'd have even more stagnation. The absolute number one must have thing is more consistent set releases. Though all the other things you mention would be nice.

dogmod
03-03-2016, 06:23 PM
Disagree. We've had a single set for 8 months. It's possible constructed might be closer to being solved by this point if there was more incentive to play, and we'd have even more stagnation. The absolute number one must have thing is more consistent set releases. Though all the other things you mention would be nice.

I would say that your looking at this from the perspective of an active constructed player who is disappointed in the current constructed progression meta. I am looking at it from the perspective of a not active player who would like to see reduced barriers to entry in terms of timing/time and improved incentives/organization. You may be right that if we had improved set release the current constructed scene would be more vibrant but I would argue it would not necessarily be that much larger. I think to grow the scene and improve accessibility and transition more PvE players to PvP players they need to do some of the things I am suggesting or something similar.

Ben
03-03-2016, 11:07 PM
Yeah but I still kinda feel like I hijacked it. Even though this thread was supposed to be about guild chat and implementation potential, it has now become another thing entirely. And now a thread where someone wants to discuss the plethora of Kickstarter features that still aren't implemented is seemingly becoming more about guild chat than it might otherwise be.

It's a shame though, because people on both sides of the guild chat argument seem to be expressing disbelief in the developers. Those who are in favor of it can't believe that such a simple project which will prove the basis of so much else hasn't been accomplished. Those who are against it seem like they must doubt the developers ability to code it, at all or within a timely fashion, without sidetracking another major feature. Which would seem to mean either they think that the HXE software development crew is small enough to fit into a phone booth, and can't spare one person to implement another chat channel, guild tags, and a guild bank (maybe it has to be purchased for gold, that could provide a foundation for future stronghold upgrade features code wise). Or, worse, they've just come to expect nothing at all from them.

Even if it's not your intention, saying that a feature that should take one person a few days at most to implement shouldn't be done because it will distract them, seems to me to be more insulting than expressing discontent that it has yet to be done. Then again I guess you could declare that any number of things are implicit in any given point, so it's a vacuous argument.

I'm not sure i follow, this thread was about guilds AND multiplayer, raids are in that category. I find guilds(unless it can be easily implemented)before raids rather pointless, we already have outlets that you can join a guild for this and it puts the ball into the communities court, friend joined one recently. However we still have no way to play with anyone outside of PvP, making the genre suspect at best.

I personally have no doubts on the ability for the developers to code anything. I think they've done a great job with the current PVE that we have. My issue is mismanagement and when things will be implemented. If the sequence is right that was posted in the other thread, the next two PVE patches will devoid of any way to interact with another player in game. The developers could be able to code anything in a timely manner and this would still be an issue.

I don't believe this has anything to do with developers, this was a vacuous argument to begin with.

Clawdius
03-04-2016, 01:40 AM
I don't believe this has anything to do with developers, this was a vacuous argument to begin with.

http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3907

frychikn
03-04-2016, 12:18 PM
i think hex realized just how bad things like guilds would be in a card game, and they are trying to find ways to properly implement it.

basically a system like guilds doesnt belong in a card game, and now they are just figuring out how to bring it to us.

Aradon
03-04-2016, 12:30 PM
I don't think that's true at all. They had a fairly good grasp of what a community for card games was like, last I heard. They had two different 'groupings,' one for guilds and one for teams. Teams would be focused around competitive preparation, deck building, etc, while guilds focused around mini-communities, local chat rooms, and shared resources. There would be a lot of feature overlap, I imagine, but just from their initial descriptions, you could tell they were aware of the needs of a card community compared to a general MMO.

alcide
03-05-2016, 06:27 PM
did I hear correctly Cory talking about a PvP ladder and using your raking to qualify to a future one million tournament?

wolzarg
03-05-2016, 06:37 PM
did I hear correctly Cory talking about a PvP ladder and using your raking to qualify to a future one million tournament?
If implemented well i like the idea but if implemented poorly it could be a grind thing which ruins the entire competitive scene. A very ominous and vague statement i guess so i have to point out i have faith in our princess

dogmod
03-05-2016, 06:53 PM
If implemented well i like the idea but if implemented poorly it could be a grind thing which ruins the entire competitive scene. A very ominous and vague statement i guess so i have to point out i have faith in our princess

I would second the caution in this post. Using a ladder system to qualify for the qualifier sounds better than using a ladder system to qualify for the actual tournament.

It could be something where the being high up in the ladder system gets your free entry into qualifiers which could have large entry fees or requirements. That would let you gate content and allow F2P players free entry while still maintaining an open environment for all players to try and get in. Obviously having some of the seats be taken by ladder players and some of the seats open to qualifiers would likely be the middle ground option.

Over all I guess my concern is that I don't want a large portion of the qualifiers to large tournaments given out in a setting that requires huge time commitment and days long grinding. My other concern is that if they place too top heavy of prizes at the top of the ladder it will make people be that much more critical of the ladder design which just by the fact of it being an online ladder system won't be perfect.

Playing an imperfect ladder system for fun and getting some small rewards/e-peen/AAs = sweet
Playing an imperfect ladder system to try and grind out a qualifier spot taking lots of time = anger

Kreuzenstein
03-06-2016, 12:44 AM
First of all, thank you for your great Podcast Matt, I enjoy listening to it.
On the topic of your question drifting away I strongly believe that this is a classic problem of "frequency of play" and the according feeling you get. Being a Kickstarter backer you have a lot of packs (you even talk about rare drafting because they "keep flowing in") and I guess you play a fair amount of games. For me personally this is a great game, because I do lack the time to play at something an mmorpg fan would consider a "high frequency". (up to 3 or 4 hours a week is - apart from exceptions like this weekend - usually the most time I get to put in)
Therefore I'm not bored at all - I have yet to try all the classes, I don't have all the "starter area" cards yet (still chasing after more contract killings and maraba stalkers) and I enjoy trying out new classes and deck themes.

There is still a ton of stuff I look forward to (much has been mentioned like deck saving and actual PvE multiplayer), but I'm still very Content with what is there at the moment.

Aradon
03-06-2016, 12:34 PM
(still chasing after more contract killings and maraba stalkers)

Just as a heads-up, Contract Killing is the card you get for finishing the Killipede quest, so don't try to farm Adventure packs for it :)

AstaSyneri
03-07-2016, 02:39 AM
I backed the game with Raids and PvE in mind - hence the combination of Raid Leader and Dungeon Crawler (and Collector's just for the value of it). I am not disappointed with the game per se, but I am not as excited about it anymore at this point.

AZ was fun on the first playthrough, but now it feels a bit like a chore, collecting so many cards without really anything new to do.

What would change this? Any sort of teamplay - that's what I joined The Unnamed Council for. As a family man my time is limited and I tend to enjoy cooperative gameplay the most. Raiding is still #1 on my priority list, and I would like to play more Constructed with my guild members (chatting over TS, which we sometimes do, but not often enough). So a ladder system with "guild only" functions, even if those matches wouldn't count for an official ranking, would be great. Or just the ability to set up "guild only" tournaments of the kind we have right now.

Khazrakh
03-07-2016, 03:08 AM
I don't know, I'd sure love Hex to be further along the road than it is at the moment, but I'm still more in love with Hex than I ever was. I accepted that it'll take time to get all the features up and running and that it'll take even more time to grow the playerbase and get more and more people interested in Hex. But still, everything HXE did so far was pure gold for me and while I'd love to go raiding right now, just being able to play Hex everyday feels like a dream come true.
Hex is the game I always wanted to play and it's the game I want to play for the rest of my life :)

RamzaBehoulve
03-07-2016, 07:46 AM
Priorities should be official PvP ladder and PvE multiplayer raids. That's what almost everyone expects from the game. We've been discussing this for months anyway, I'm pretty sure they know it, especially after GenCon and Gamescom.

sukebe
03-07-2016, 01:27 PM
Priorities should be official PvP ladder and PvE multiplayer raids. That's what almost everyone expects from the game. We've been discussing this for months anyway, I'm pretty sure they know it, especially after GenCon and Gamescom.

The problem with posts stating "priorities" is that each person has different priorities :-) For me I think they need to:

1: start getting pvp sets out every 4 months like they planned.
2: get all pve classes, talents, and levels into the game
3: Get Ladder/rankings into the game (not my focus but I agree it would help get people playing more)
4: Get raids into the game
5: get guilds into the game
6: get casual pvp multiplayer into the game (2v2, free for all, commander etc)