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Wuggalix
03-12-2016, 09:08 AM
Hey everyone,

I've already talked a bit about how I think the leaderboard is important and what the point system should look like if we want it to be an incentive for players to play more PVP and more competitive PVP here : link (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=48155&page=3&p=559811&viewfull=1#post559811).

If I am creating another thread today, it's not because I desperately want you to implement something of the like (well, I do, but by now I'm sure you've been aware of that, so saying it another time won't help) but because I've had another idea to make it even better and more effective as a "PVP boost" measure.

I was unfortunately not here the first and only time you put some AA in the store, but when I've read the messages - elsewhere on the forum - regarding the extra useless IQ points, it made me think that maybe we should brainstorm into something sweet here.


Basically, the way I see it, the PVP tournaments (Drafts, Sealed, Constructed etc) will be giving points for good finishes, and those points will be added for each players and a leaderboard will be created (well 3 : constructed + limited + mixed).
Whatever the ending tournament(s) will be, I've tought about something that could be implemented that would make the "grind the PVP" even sweeter.

So basically, instead of boosting PVP tournaments rewards as many people have suggested (but Chark and I know that it's not the way to go, at least that alone won't do much) it could be interesting that those points earned by playing PVP tournaments could be redeemed and transformed into AAs (from the store).


1) The Idea :

Instead of having points that only counts on the leaderboard (and don't necessary have to be an item in the stash) we would have some tickets (pretty much like IQ tickets) and those tickets could be traded for AAs from the store.
- Of course, the tickets won't be able to be traded/sold/bought between players, but players will be able to exchange a given amount of tickets for some AAs.
- The leaderboard will just be a counter of how many points/tickets (no matter how we call them for now) have been earned by each player during the period... Because of course exchanging your tickets to the store in order to get some AAs should not make you loose 20 ranks in the leaderboard.
- AAs will be renewed each season (4 months)


2) In Practice :

- Pretty much like IQ tickets, those points will be stored in the stash for people to see and for people to want to get more of them.
- There should be several AAs to collect, of the same rarity... Or not. Both sounds good to me...
- Those AAs would be in store shiny and appealing to the players, giving them another reason to play those PVP tournaments in order to get the points to have their AAs.
- While I was reluctant to give any "participation points" at first for the leaderboard system... I think it might be interesting to do so if we put the AAs in the mix. The reasons is that some players might say "I won't get points anyway as I will get crushed and I don't really care about the leaderboard anyway"... BUT if every player entering a draft or another tournament is certain to get at least 1 point, now it feels way better, and it makes a big difference... Because it will change there state of mind from the one I've just said into "well let's concentrate on the fun, I will have at least 1 point so I don't desperately need to win that event in order to advance / progress".... That feeling of progress is what makes me think that the system would be more effective at making players play more PVP if it gives at least 1 point for participation.
- It might very well be the kind of passive reward that players were looking for (and expecting nowadays, damn kids they want everything).


3) Example :

- AAs : (C) Arcane focus @ 20 tickets + (U) Chlorophyllia @ 40 tickets + (R) sweet rare set4 @ 80 tickets + (L) Eye of creation @ 150 tickets
- Just for the choice of the AAs : It is better to choose something that is usually played by 3 or 4, because more people will be willing to get a playset of them.
- Drafts could give 1 point to everybody, then 2 to those who advance after first round, then 3, then 5 for winner.
- I won't redo all the points as I talked about it extensively in the link but might do if you're interested.

150 tickets might sounds a lot (and it might very well be, I've not done much computations about those numbers) but the price in tickets should be a bit high anyway, since those AAs will be in store for 4 months so people will definitely have time to get their points.

And then, when the next season comes in, the AAs are renewed in store... and the points earned are reseted on the leaderboard.
=> I am not sure, if the unused points in inventory should be removed, or kept for next season... I would say kept because people don't like when we take something from them, and they might not be willing to do a draft 1 week before the end of the season if they know their points will be reset anyway and they won't be able to get enough points to get another card before that happens.
So we keep the remaining tickets in the inventory at the end of the season, and we just reset the leaderboard.


4) To conclude, I think that this implementation would please pretty much all kind of players.
The competitive players with large collections thanks to their grind will have new AAs that they will be willing to grab to pimp their decks as well as another reward for their grind... The collectors will love more AAs, and will be willing to play a bit, but also pay other people to play the game (by buying their AAs)... And the casual players will find it more appealing to put themselves into PVP with all those sweet cards to get.
Also, I know that there is a group of players that care mostly about PVE, but they love their AAs... So those guys might be interested in doing a bit more (paid tournaments) in PVP just to get them.

To sum it up, the leaderboard system (and the big tournament at the end of each season) will attract competitive players and will force them to play more... While the AAs will attract the casual players, and gives them an incentive to play more.

Voormas
03-12-2016, 04:59 PM
I just intrinsically dislike the idea of rewards being tied to a ranking system - I think at best it's okay to qualify for entry into a tournament that gives out special prizes (where you would still need to pay an entry fee)

Also I love AA cards, but don't forget that choosing which pieces to make AA for + commissioning the art + receiving a final version of that art on time, it all takes a while and because you generally want your AA to be exceptional probably costs a fair bit as well; you don't want to use them as an incentive if you don't have to

Wuggalix
03-13-2016, 11:34 AM
I'm not totally sure you've grasped the idea here.

The ranking system would not provide rewards in itself, only an entry to a tournament to a certain number of people.
Let's say at the end of each season, the top20 limited, and the top20 constructed will face in a invit only (online) tournament with rather good prizes.

That's the original idea... And now I'm thinking (and explaining here) that instead of having those points being only points, they could actually be "tickets" that the players will (on top of what's mentionned) trade in the store for some AAs... The more points you get by playing in PVP tournaments, the more AAs you will be able to "buy" with your points.

As for the process of making new AAs, I am pretty sure that Hex have plenty of arts ordered in advance, and if it's not the case currently, it's rather easily fixable.

Also, in the proposition I was offering them to choose 1 common, 1 unco, 1 rare and one legendary card per season, but that's totally arbitrary, they can also do 2 rares, or 4 commons, I don't have enough information to help me make an informed choice and help them in that regard.

Tazelbain
03-14-2016, 08:06 AM
The tickets seem plenty valuable to me. Want needs to happen is the distribution needs to be balanced better so there is incentive to play things besides sealed.

Turtlewing
03-14-2016, 08:09 AM
This doesn't strike me as a very good idea.

For one thing, you are boosting the rewards of PvP tournaments, as placing gets you tickets. For another the utility of the ranking system seems pretty much nonexistent. You'd have pretty much the same rewards system if you just didn't bother with the leaderboards, and with no penalty for lost tournaments time sunk can outweigh win percentage.

A leaderboard should incentivize you to try and score higher on the board. So if you're going to give out prizes they should be based on standings at the end of the season. There should probably also be some cost to loosing a ton of tournaments.

Wuggalix
03-14-2016, 02:54 PM
@Turtlewing : It all depends on the goal of the ranking system... What I think should be Hex's goal (at least for the years to come) is not to have the most elitist group of players that can brag they've got a better win rate than anybody, what the game need is more people playing tournaments... So in my opinion the ranking system should be built with that goal in mind (and that's what I'm trying to do here).

Also, the leaderboard would be offering some prizes to some extent, since the top20 of each limited and constructed would be given an entry to a big end of the season tournament with large prizes (and there might be a slot or two for the next invitational, or world championship, whatever the next big live tournament is called in that end of the season tournament).
=> So yeah, the leaderboard on itself should be a big incentive to play more tournaments.

I'm not hiding that the volume of tournament played will be a big factor in such an system, but still, good results pays off more than average ones... I just feel that the game would be in a better shape with plenty of people chaining tournaments, than with tournament not firing because people were afraid of loosing points.


@Tazelbain : The distribution of points I've given is just an example of what could be done. But Hex can definitely tweak it the way they want in order to achieve what they want... I'm not too worried about that, and I know they've got plenty more information than I do in order to find the right mix so I'm putting that here as an example / starting point.

For instance, I think that the scheduled events should be prioritized over queue events (drafts/constructed/gauntlets) because they are more profitable for Hex, but they might want the game to be played mostly in queues events (for reasons that I might not grasp)... So they can increase the number of points given in the latter if they want... It's just a system, all parameters after that is up to them and will depend on which part of the game (in PVP) they want to develop the most... They can setup something balanced or something biased toward a given event.

Yoss
03-16-2016, 12:22 PM
I like your core idea of having a Player of the Year/Quarter/Month leaderboard system with a fancy tournament at the end. That could definitely get tournaments firing more.

I do not like this addition to your core idea, because it is not at all clear what it accomplishes beyond just making more work for HXE with no bottom line benefit. If the tournaments are already firing due to your core idea above, then this add on is not needed. If the tournaments are not already firing even with your core idea implemented, then this add on will not save the system.

Wuggalix
03-17-2016, 10:52 AM
Well, basically, the addition of AAs in the store that players could get by trading the points/tickets they have had by playing PVP, is mostly here to make the casual players interested in the system.

The hardcore grinders will definitely not need such a thing since they will chain tournaments with just the leaderboard (and all that's attached to it)... The average competitive player will just "play more" since they will have an actual incentive to do so.
But there will still be some players that won't care about those 3 leaderboards (casual players / mostly PVE players / collectors, etc)...

And the point is to make those guys interested in playing more tournaments (the goal), and both introducing new cool AAs and a way to get those would, in my opinion, achieve just that.





Edit : Most TCGs are played by a majority of non-competitive players, and even if I am less experienced in the MMO field, I feel that it's rather similar... Therefore, having a way to get those guys participate into the competitive scene would be a huge boost to the number of players playing tournaments.
We can see every weekend in the free community tournaments, that there are way more players in Hex than the few drafts firing and the long wait of gauntlet queues should make us expect... That's basically all those guys that I want to bring to the "other tournaments", because they are numerous.

Hextra
03-19-2016, 05:06 AM
I don't see how this could possibly appeal to casual players when all you're really doing is making the rewards more top-heavy (5 points for the winner, 1 for participation.) This means that a player with bad results would end up "paying" several times more than a player with good ones for their AA card (potentially 40 times the price of a draft or sealed event!) Even if they want that card really badly, they won't bother with it because the marginal value of 1 point is pretty much nil to them. Instead they'll just save their money and buy that card on the AH because it's much more efficient. The only players this caters to are PVP grinders.

Wuggalix
03-19-2016, 10:22 AM
The tickets would basically be a fraction of a card, so sure in a given tournament there will be players who will (obviously) get more fractions of a card than others... But in a system where everybody get at least 1 point per tournament, people start getting fraction of AAs, and those people will then be willing to get more of those, to at least get enough to have an entire one... And then should they stop playing ? Well, when they'll get their first AA and will go back to 0 tickets in stash this will looks like a long road again, so it won't be an incentive... But people might enter tournaments for other reasons (enjoyment, new deck to toy with, or just a free 4h slot to fill in the weekend)... And soon they'll have 5-7 tickets again in stash, and the appeal to play more to get another AA will be strong again.

Those are really only "free stuff", but free stuff that everybody can have access to, even people who doesn't really care about their win rate and only play casually with fun decks... So yeah I know that the grass will always look better in the neighbor's garden and some people will get more points than others, but I'm sure that this would be a great incentive and will translate in an increased tournament appearance for all kind of players.


As for the prices of those AAs, it will be determined by many factors... What comes to mind is the :

DEMAND :
- Playability of the card (PVP + PVE staple / PVP staple only / PVE staple only / Sometimes played in PVP or PVE / Never played) will be a huge factor, as many people only care about what they are playing or will be playing.
- Number of collectors willing to get a playset of it no matter what it is : the more collectors there is in the game, the highest the demand
- Perceived long term investment potential : future demand from upcoming collectors (or all kind of players depending on playability)

OFFER :
- How hard is it to get those cards (the number of tickets I've put here are just examples, they might be doubled for instance), so the highest the number of tickets required per AA, the lowest the offer.
- How many time they stay in store before they are replaced by others (would be very different if they last 1 or 4 months), the longer they stay the highest the offer.
- Other incentives to play constructed (Leaderboard, End of season tournaments, etc) could (should) boost tournament's number of players, so increase offer for those AAs.
- Availability by other means (this is not what I originally planned, but that's also a possibility) should increase offer


At the end of the day, all those factors will determine the price of the AAs, and no, it would not obviously be cheaper to get from AH than from playing tournaments... It would depends... And if it's well balanced, what I'm expecting for an average AA, is that 5-10 tournaments should get you one @25-50% than AH price everything taken into account. (*)

That being said, we've been told recently that the "leaderboard/ranking system/ladder" is under construction and should arrive in a couple of months... So I think that this piece of information means that they are quite advanced in the process of creating it, and therefore, this idea will probably not be implemented (too late) unless they've thought about something like this, which would be possible though...






(*) This is obviously a rough estimate, since I'm lacking many information (only Hex have) about every player's collection... But with all information available, this should not be harder than pricing a bond. ^^
So I'm sure than from there they can go backward and compute the right amount of points for a given card, and then compute how many points should be awarded for tournaments.