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View Full Version : Shin'hare: How would you suggest to fix?



Tygari
03-22-2016, 01:20 AM
Shin'hare are considered worthless for pvp.
How would you suggest to fix Shin'hare to make them more viable?

pyrovoice
03-22-2016, 01:27 AM
more low-cost spell to put tokens into play, more low-cost better spells to boost them all at once, less extinction in the format

the real question would be : do you want a shin'hare meta ? Cause just putting tons of creatures into play and boosting them is really boring

You could also play on the sacrifice part, and in that case we need better sacrifice cards ^^ things that come into play from grave, things that can actually be a threat to the opposing player (minion of yazukan would be a good example, but is too slow)

Erukk
03-22-2016, 02:02 AM
more low-cost spell to put tokens into play, more low-cost better spells to boost them all at once, less extinction in the format


Without boardsweepers in the format, there'd probably be a lot more cheaper targeted removal to take their place. There always has to be something trying to keep aggro decks in line. Otherwise, they would simply flood the field with troops and swing to victory pretty easily.

lightreaper
03-22-2016, 02:12 AM
A great 1 cost troop, and some form of means to extract card advantage from Shin'hare in crypt would be plenty. That's all they need.

Elwinz
03-22-2016, 02:20 AM
A way to recover after board wipe, u simply cant remove board wipes. IN theory, u can play with dimamond take unicorn, but than again you have to draw that unicorn and taking unicorn disrupts whhat you are doing.

Salverus
03-22-2016, 02:36 AM
Also i find current shin'hare combos too big.
For a normal combo you need 2, maybe 3 cards to get great results already. For shin'hare combo you need like 5 specific cards.

Sixlooter
03-22-2016, 02:41 AM
There was a recent comment by one of the nobles or even a CZE employee who esplained why balancing the bunnies is so tough.

In a nutshell: scaling effects for shins can become nuts and totally op VERY quickly by only small changes. So at the moment it is always the balancing between an "ok" state that is not topdeck enough for tier 1 tournament and versions that are so op, that it would go into titanias majesty direction and instantly dominate the meta. So I think it is clever to be a bit more carefull, before we have to see the next ban. I hope with the next 2 sets there will be a good tier 1 bunny option. It is just too funny to miss these evil little furballs ;)

Eierdotter
03-22-2016, 02:46 AM
why do you want to "fix" shin'hare?
there is not other race-theme that is viable. (ok orc aggro^^)

all there is are a few good cards of a race mixed together with other cards.

vennen spider flood = bad
shin'hare battlehopper flood = bad
coyotle inspire = bad
...
every core theme of a race is "bad" or more accurately "too slow" for constructed.
what works are exceptionally good cards that work good on theyr own and amazing with others.
for example:
phenteo with azurefate sorceress
monsuun with bombs
windsinger with control

The place where the core theme of a race is allowed to work is PVE, where you get the equippment to make it viable/broken and work.

Elwinz
03-22-2016, 02:52 AM
coyotles aren realy that bad tbh.

Sixlooter
03-22-2016, 02:59 AM
coyotles aren realy that bad tbh.

None is, if you have the time and an opponent that is not superfast or constantly disrupts/destroys your game.
As Eierdotter already mentioned all the races are super fun in PVE, but PVP meta is so super efficient you cannot afford to relay on fragile combos and/or slow wins with a deck that is not super robust (control blood or wintermoon).

ossuary
03-22-2016, 03:21 AM
Rune Ear Hierophant. There, Shin'Hare are now viable. You're welcome. ;)

Elwinz
03-22-2016, 03:55 AM
he will definetly help a ton.But still extinciton and almsot game over.

Kroan
03-22-2016, 04:16 AM
A three drop 2/2 with double gems (major/minor) that gets bigger the more troops you play

...


oh wait :P

Also, this might intrest you:
https://twitter.com/jeffhoogland/status/700547753395392512

A shin'hare list that went 5-1 in gauntlet.

Elwinz
03-22-2016, 04:25 AM
Well well, argh made w/d shin hare deck wining in gauntlet. But that doesnt realy prove its highly comptetitve in the long run.

wolzarg
03-22-2016, 09:12 AM
I did it as well with my mono blood yazukan deck that i made to prove to a friends shinhare arent unviable the way you want to play the is.


Well well, argh made w/d shin hare deck wining in gauntlet. But that doesnt realy prove its highly comptetitve in the long run.
Neither are humans, vennen, dwarfs, coyotle and so on what is the problem?

pyrovoice
03-22-2016, 09:22 AM
well it could be that a card game having a lot of cards that promote playing a single race fail to have said race in top tiers decks

hitchslap88
03-22-2016, 10:10 AM
well it could be that a card game having a lot of cards that promote playing a single race fail to have said race in top tiers decks

Depends what format you're playing. In Rock League, Shin'hare and Dwarfs are dominant. And Rock League is more accessible than unrestricted PvP.

Elwinz
03-22-2016, 10:13 AM
Depends what format you're playing. In Rock League, Shin'hare and Dwarfs are dominant. And Rock League is more accessible than unrestricted PvP.
OF rock league was something permanet maybe. But rock league is gone tihs week and wil be on hiatus for another few months ~~

nicosharp
03-22-2016, 10:52 AM
https://twitter.com/jeffhoogland/status/700547753395392512

A shin'hare list that went 5-1 in gauntlet.
My brain is having trouble processing how that went 5-1. 4x Command Towers! Pretty awesome though. Hop'Hiro is a beast left unchecked.

pyrovoice
03-22-2016, 11:09 AM
when we talk about a format, we usually talk about primaries format supported by game owners, aka the competitive scen here

plaguedealer
03-22-2016, 11:18 AM
Oberon's eulogy has got to have a place somewhere in a competitive shin'hare deck.

ossuary
03-22-2016, 11:20 AM
My brain is having trouble processing how that went 5-1. 4x Command Towers! Pretty awesome though. Hop'Hiro is a beast left unchecked.

Single target removal is dominant right now, not a lot of people are running sweepers anymore (and heat wave is even rarer than extinction). This deck can easily drop 2-3 2/2s every single turn once it gets going, has attack buffs that are resistant to normal removal methods, and since it doesn't focus on numerous ways to make more shin'hare (it goes all in on the concubunnies and recruiters, doesn't bother with ritualists, etc.), it can ramp out very quickly. Having that Monsuun underground early helps too, of course, since even if you do sweep them away, the whole army comes back a few turns later. I don't see it being anywhere close to T1, but it's definitely good enough to surprise people who aren't prepared to face a swarm.

ossuary
03-22-2016, 11:23 AM
Oberon's eulogy has got to have a place somewhere in a competitive shin'hare deck.

Sorry for posting twice in a row, but that's iffy. Sure, if you get it out and then have more turns, it's brutal. But getting up to 5 resources in what should be a rush deck is not always easy (and you have to give up your whole 4th/5th turn to cast it). Generally speaking, you shouldn't ever need anything more expensive than a 3 drop (hard cast) to win with a properly built rush deck... orcs, dwarves, and shin'hare all work this way, to different degrees and based on different archetypes of play.

nicosharp
03-22-2016, 11:26 AM
The meta is in a weird place after the $100k, but looking forward to fresh set4 spin on meta. I've seen some interesting decks clear gauntlets with 5-x that are scrapping by thanks to the prevalence of late-game control type of decks popularity.

plaguedealer
03-22-2016, 11:26 AM
Sorry for posting twice in a row, but that's iffy. Sure, if you get it out and then have more turns, it's brutal. But getting up to 5 resources in what should be a rush deck is not always easy (and you have to give up your whole 4th/5th turn to cast it). Generally speaking, you shouldn't ever need anything more expensive than a 3 drop (hard cast) to win with a properly built rush deck... orcs, dwarves, and shin'hare all work this way, to different degrees and based on different archetypes of play.

True, but I am not sure if shin'hare should be a rush style deck. Wild/blood always seemed mid range to me. The new hierophant could work in a rush or mid range deck imo.

Elwinz
03-22-2016, 11:47 AM
Eulogy is just too slow

IronPheasant
03-22-2016, 02:17 PM
Really the place where the game falls down a bit is having a strategy for every color pair. In sealed or draft, you're almost always gonna be in two colors, so every single pair has to have a strategy because every pair combination will be and, should be good enough to be, played. WB didn't have a strategy in block 1, not really. We can call it a failure and move on from there.

The golgari-style graveyard cards coming in set 4 are a nice start.

Looking back, in my opinion, Battle Hoppers were not a mechanic implemented as well as they could have been. I woulda had a graveyard effect of some sort to unify the overlapping WB themes - something like "Void three battle hoppers from your graveyard: Draw a card" stapled onto them would have gone quite a ways.

It certainly would make chump blocking with Concubunny spawnlings in a control deck a bit different.

ossuary
03-22-2016, 03:50 PM
Yeah, it's a very difficult thing to balance. A lot of people have said that hoppers should have been stronger, so that they were independently useful (instead of just being standalone chumps), but even something as straightforward as making them 1/1 instead of 0/1 would make them pretty devastating. It definitely feels to me like they have been moving cautiously with them to avoid making them unintentionally overpowered.

One of the real problems, though, is that the two halves of the shin'hare playstyle are in direct odds with each other - wild wants them to make a lot of troops and have them stick around, blood wants there to be a lot of troops, but for them to mostly die. You miss out on a lot of power if you use only one over the other, but they also don't play nice together, and are too slow when combined. It's a tough nut to crack.

Elwinz
03-22-2016, 05:13 PM
The meta is in a weird place after the $100k, but looking forward to fresh set4 spin on meta. I've seen some interesting decks clear gauntlets with 5-x that are scrapping by thanks to the prevalence of late-game control type of decks popularity.
Theres no meta in gauntlet atm,poeple are bored. Seeing strea,s poeple play all kind of wierd non comptetetive decks

DanTheMeek
03-25-2016, 03:50 PM
To me the biggest issue has been that it feels like battle hoppers generating cards have been balanced as if they were generating troops. While BHs are "technically" troops, in reality they are a secondary resource shin'hare have to manage in addition to the core resources like other themes. With many tokens in other games, they are frequently 1/1s, some times even 1/1 flyers, those are troops, weak troops, but still, top decking a card that generates three 1/1s after a board wipe re-establishes your board presence, even if your core combos have been defused.

Summoning three 0/1s basically amounts to having top decked a shard, maybe even worse, since shards not only can help activate charge abilities, but now are starting to do other things for you too. They're not even an effective defensive presence since, even if they aren't using flyers, or crush, or other evasion, they can't hurt anything they block, and they can't survive ANY attack they receive. You don't summon BHs to block with, you block with BHs because you will lose if you don't, they're just shards that can be sacrificed against certain attacks to avoid immediate death, even if, in many cases, by giving them up you've pretty much sacrificed your future as well.

But whether your using your BHs as a means of getting extra value out of your mass field buffing effects, sacrifice effects, or exhaust effects, they are serving as a resource to you. Buff effects can turn that resource into a troop, sacrifice or exhaust can spend it, but on its own it was not useful in the same way even a 1/1 troop is, it had to be "spent" by something else.

So how do you fix shin'hare then? Well, as stated already, its definitely not a simple thing, because it would be very easy to over buff them, but I think the biggest thing they could do is provide better BH generators, cards which generate BHs (or can be used like they are used), and are at least some what useful on their own. I feel like after set 1, which was largely a disaster in BH generation balance, they have improved quite a bit, particularly in set 2 with cards like Blossoming Concubunny and Minion of Yakuza. BC maintains a 1/1 body in addition to creating a BH, while MoY gives up his ability to be an emergency blocker in exchange for not only being a troop (aka, having 1 attack), and re-usability if used as a resource in a sacrifice Shin'hare deck, but also having a means of being a threat with his slowly increasing attack. Its more card like this I'd love to see Shin'hare get, both to improve the consistency of the decks, but also to give more viable options, so the choices of BH generators are more varied and the best ones may depend on how a certain deck is constructed.

On a similar aside, having more cards which are decent (not great but not completely awful) on their own, but become great when they have access to or are near by when other shin'hares use shin'hares special additional resource (BHs) would really help. For example of how not to do it:

Bucktooth Roshi is a cool idea that was poorly implemented because hes' absolutely awful, nigh unplayable, when he doesn't have his "resources" to buff. 7 for a 3/3 nothing? Tunnel 4 for a 3/3 nothing? Seriously? How about 5WWW for a 3/3 with those effects instead. Because of how good his effect is at utlizing shin'hares extra resource "BHs", I understand you don't want him to be a 5 for 5/5, but 7 for 3/3 was just pushed him out of viability, same with such a long Tunnel time.

Guru of the wounded petal could have been an awesome addition if he said "When this card enters play, if two or more troops did not enter play this turn, this' attack and defense both become 1 ", instead he's absolutely useless with out shin'hares resources (or two other summons that leave a resource open for him).

Concubunny probably would have been fine at 1 cost being so one dimensional, but at 2 she really needed at least 2, preferably 3, defense, so she at least could have functioned as a blocker. I'm still happy that she was brought down from cost 3 during the alpha to 2, don't get me wrong, but there was a reason I had been pushing for her to go from 3 to 1, she herself is basically a resource that requires a turn in play and two other resources (1 actual resource, and 1 BH or shi'nhare to exhaust) to do anything. That makes the number of situations where she's an awful draw far too high for the minimal impact she has on the game itself even when she is allowed to use her ability for a couple turns. I think the real sweet spot would have been to make her a 1/2, so you were basically paying double the cost of a shin'ahre militia, for a shin'hare militia, that in the right circustances and for the right expenditures, could generate an additional resource, but again, at least at 0/3 she could have had a secondary function as a blocker troop, a 0/1 troop is basically just a resource, not a troop.


Example cards I'd love to see:

Flop-eared Femme Fatale
Type: Troop - Concubunny
Cost 2B
Attack 0 / Defense 3
Pay 1, Exhaust, Sacrifice another shin'hare you control -> Create 2 Battle hoppers.

This blood equivalent of the traditional Concubunny matches with Fertile Engorger's stats of 0/3, allowing her to maybe block and live to tell the cottontail in some situations and fitting in shard theme, but costs 2 instead of 1 since she's less random. This would actually serve two purposes, another BH generator for blood, and a means of sacrificing them for cards that want shin'hare sacrificed but can't do it themselves.

Field Concubunny
Type: Troop - Concubunny
Cost 4WW
Attack 1/ Defense 2
Tunneling: 3
When a shin'hare enters play under your control, if this is underground, this gets +1/+1.
When this enters play, create X Battle Hoppers, where X equals this troop's defense.

This time I'm taking inspiration from my favorite shin'hare ranger, Wakizashi Ambusher. If you hard summon her she's pretty underwhelming, as just a 1/2 body and giving you two 0/1 "resource" in BHs for 4, but still has "some" body in top deck situations as opposed to being a dead draw. She really shines though if you burrow her as she can effectively bring an army with her when she comes out and be pretty buff herself.


These are just two random ideas I came up with on the fly, but the core element is that the card can do something on its own, but can also be a powerful resource generating tool, in the same way cards that only gain life tend to be bad, but cards that heal and do something else can be quite good.

ossuary
03-25-2016, 04:09 PM
I agree that the main problem with shin'hare is that too many of their troops do absolutely nothing on their own, you need 1-2 other troops also in play for them to have any worth whatsoever (including the battle hoppers!). I'm not sure on the balance level of the two cards you suggested, but something along those lines is exactly what the shin'hare need - where you get a sub-par but not terrible troop by itself, and a good to great troop when successfully paired with other shin'hare.

IronPheasant
03-25-2016, 04:53 PM
Concubunny's repeatable effect had to be a bit jank since she's a common. Certainly you could make an uncommon that costs 2 or 3 with 3 repeatable:poop out a battle hopper, or a rare that's actually pretty good. Blossoming Concubunny is a better fit for that rarity slot.

I've had some better success with battle hoppers using cards that see them as a valuable accumulating resource: Roostasaurs and Starfire Totemist. Pity Roostasaur is unplayable thanks to all the clicking - that's one card I've begged them to change.

In the end they're no Eldrazi Spawn. They oughta do something when they die or when they're in the graveyard or when they come back from the graveyard.

Tygari
03-27-2016, 01:54 AM
I feel Shin'hare need more uses for battle hoppers.

DanTheMeek
03-27-2016, 11:08 AM
You know something else I've thought about before, but I wish wild shin'hare's core theme was based around the exhausting of shin'hare, rather then buffing them. 0/1 is such a bad place to start from if you want battling troops, if BHs were 1/1s it would have made sense, but as it is, it feels more logical to use a 0/1 in a way where its stats don't matter, or to find troops with better base stats to buff if your goal is to buff troops. Then wild and blood bunnies would have had at least a little bit of synergy since you could exhuast your BHs, then sacrifice them in the same turn (though even that still has its issues since exhaust effects would likely be on average a little weaker in exchange for the fact that troops who are exhausted are a renewable resource, while troops that are sacrificed are not). As it is, there are a few cards from outside sources that can exhaust them, but they're not as powerful as they could be because they're not shin'hare exclusive in their exhaust targets.

Anyway, continuing on my thought from before, as far as Blood is concerned I feel like there theme is in a pretty good place as far as the goal, but I wish at least every blood shin'hare card going forward had various degrees of at least two of the following.
- BH generation
- Effects when Shin'hare die
- Effects that sacrifice Shin'hare
- Solid stats for its cost

Obviously any one of the first three effects plus solid base stats means if things don't come together, at least you still got a solid unit for your cost, but I'm okay with the sort of subpar stats they've had if two of these effects are combined instead of just one so that if you've got a good sacrifice effect, you also either have a weak effect when they die/sacrificed through other methods, or a super expensive way to generate BHs. If you've got a good effect when shin'hare die by anyone's hands, you also either have an expensive way to generate BHs, or an expensive way to sacrifice Shin'hare. And if you generate BH easily, you also have a weak effect when they die/sacrificed, or an expensive effect to sacrifice them.

Hop'hiro is a good example of this, he doesn't have to be the one to sacrifice things to get an effect, but (at first form, by third its actually pretty cheap) he's got an extremely expensive way to sacrifice them for you if you didn't draw your good sacrifice effects. Right now most other blood bunnies cards fall into one of these categories (in some cases indirectly, such as ones that are based on the troops in the crypt but don't actually care how or when they got there), but only one, frequently generating situations where:

- You have lots of bunnies, but nothing to do with them.
- You have lots of bunnies who would do great things if bunnies died, but either no bunnies to die or no way to force them to die.
- You have lots of ways to sacrifice bunnies for powerful effects, but either no bunnies to sacrifice, or you but all but one of those cards with ways to sacrifice bunnies' effect will be wasted since each BH can only be sacrificed once.

This is a common issue all combos decks suffer from, struggling when their combo doesn't come together or is disrupted, but it hits shin'hare harder then most do to just how effectively useless BHs are outside of said combos compared to many other combo decks where the individual pieces can still do something weak, but useful.