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Magician
04-08-2016, 01:07 PM
Hey all, I’m Corey Burkhart, the rules guy here at HEX. Today, I want to give you some insights to some rules we’re changing with the release of Primal Dawn that we think are going to bring great quality of life upgrades to copies.

With Armies of Myth, we released seven cards that could create copies of another card or transform into another card. The reactions to copies were mostly positive. One of the awesome things in a digital space is being able to modify your cards you’re playing with and make them your own, and copies were the newest and coolest piece of that player customization.

However, we missed a little bit with copies. There were bugs with it when we released it, like some copy cards functioning completely differently than other copy cards. With this change we sought to clear out those couple of bugs that existed with Armies of Myth and most importantly make the rules of copies more in line with what people anticipated a copy being. Therefore, here are the new rules for copies:

Copies are very similar to replicas in the way they function with a few key distinctions. The rules for copies are as follows:



Copies get all modifiers that the copied card had, with the same duration.



Example: I have a Frigid Buffalo (Troop – Beast, 2ATK/3DEF) and I play Smoke Signals (Quick Action; Ready each troop you control. They get +DEF this turn). If I then create a copy of the 2ATK/4DEF Frigid Buffalo, I will get a 2ATK/4DEF Frigid Buffalo. At the end of the turn, the +1DEF modifier will be removed from both Frigid Buffalos.




Powers that are indefinite modifiers are not copied over in the creation/transformation of copies.



Example: You control a Command Tower, (Artifact – Troops you control have +1ATK/+0DEF), and a Duplicitous Duke (Troop Necrotic Warlock 2ATK/2DEF -- Shift [(1)]: At the start of your combat phase, this gets "Must attack." Create a copy of this and put it into play. It gets Speed and "When combat ends, void this.") The Duke is a 3ATK/2DEF when in play, and the copy is also a 3ATK/2DEF, no longer a 4ATK/2DEF with the Command Tower’s Indefinite modifier being both copied over and then applying to the Duplicitous Duke.



Copies are always created or transformed into the copied target (current state).


Like replicas, copies of socketable cards will be socketed with the same gems as the original.


Copied cards have the attributes (ATK, DEF, cost, shard, threshold, type, traits, uniqueness flag) and powers as the card they copied. In the case of uniqueness violations, the card that has been in play the longest will be put into the crypt.


1-SHOT powers are not restored to the copy if the original card has used its power.


If the copy has targets, you may choose new targets for the copy.


Cards that are copied, are independent from their source once they’re created or transformed. There are then treated as their own card.



Example: I play Taint (Quick Action; Target troop gets -1ATK/-1DEF.) on the original Frigid Buffalo from the previous example that is a 2ATK/4DEF. The original Frigid Buffalo will become a 1ATK/3DEF, but the copy is its own card and will not also get that -1ATK/-1DEF from Taint.




The first two rules are the rules that have been updated and changed from the previous copies that people have come to know. The first rule, updates the duration with which effects are copied on a card. Here’s an additional example:

I Control a Battle Hopper (0ATK/1DEF) troop. I play Wild Growth (Target troop gets +3ATK/+3DEF) targeting the Battle Hopper, so that it is now a 3ATK/4DEF. That power from the Wild Growth card now has an effect on Battle Hopper giving it +3ATK/+3DEF for the turn.


https://www.hextcg.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/hoppers.png


With old copies, if you created a Copy of your Battle Hopper, you would always have a 3ATK/4DEF Battle Hopper. With the updated rules, you have a 3ATK/4DEF, that at the end of the turn loses its +3ATK/+3DEF for the turn and goes back to being the normal 0ATK/1DEF Battle Hopper we know and love.

The reason for this change is that we wanted copies to be more of a “snapshot” of what your troop was. Players were consistently confused why troops were the sizes they were at the end of the duration of effects on their troops. We think this is the more quality of life update the copies.

The second rule being updated is the change to how copies work with indefinite modifiers. An indefinite modifier is any power is a fancy way to say a power that we don’t specify for how long it will last. These are the kinds of powers that cannot be removed by revert powers. Some examples of these are High Tomb Lord (“This has +1ATK/+1DEF for each card in all crypts.”) and Command Tower (“Troops you control have +1ATK/+0DEF.”).

This change had many more bugs infested in it that were not just related to the ATK and DEF of a troop, but in terms of other things going on with the card. Take for example our High Tomb Lord and how it played when it was copied. The first bug fixed is that if your High Tomb Lord was in play as a 1ATK/1DEF (1 cards in your crypt), a copy would then be a 1ATK/1DEF (1 cards in your crypt and +1ATK/+1DEF from the old High Tomb Lord). This was confusing, no doubt about it. This has been cleaned up such that the copy is the same as the one previously in play, a 1ATK/1DEF.

The second bug that has been cleaned up from this was how copied cards interacted when they were transformed. Again, we have a High Tomb Lord that is on top of our deck as a 0ATK/0DEF because his power is functioning because it’s not in play just yet. We play Titania’s Majesty and choose to create a copy of that High Tomb Lord (with 1 card in our crypt). We’re left with a 1ATK/1DEF High Tomb Lord in play. Then, if we transform that High Tomb Lord with Angelic Ascension, the results left us with the following image:


https://www.hextcg.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/high-tomb.png


This is a really bad bug, and I’m really happy to say that this has been fixed with our Primal Dawn patch. We will no longer see card type, subtypes, cost, ATK, and DEF all carried through a transformation of a copied card. And instead you’ll end up with your normal Angel troop that’s a 5 cost 4ATK/4DEF Avatar troop.

We hope these updates will make copies much more intuitive and much more fun to play with. We want to assure you, in doing this we’re not changing your PvP cards, we’re focusing here on fixing bugs with copies and making sure they function the best they possibly can within the rules and we’re confident that these updates will make all copies cards much better for HEX.

Please feel free to ask questions here, I'll try and address them as they come up this afternoon and into this weekend.

~Corey

fido_one
04-08-2016, 01:19 PM
Thanks for the article Corey! Great to find this out officially and that the wonkiness has been cleared up on copies.

Magician
04-08-2016, 01:23 PM
Course, sorry for the late release! Was planning on having this initially be an article on the main page, but ended up slotting it in here.

Of note, these changes will also be listed in the Primal Dawn FAQ when that is released on the day that Primal Dawn cards go into the client!

Tazelbain
04-08-2016, 01:30 PM
Any word on copies of escalation cards on the chain going to crypt instead of going into the deck? Seems counter intuitive.

Salverus
04-08-2016, 01:30 PM
So titanias majesty into a heart of the wrathwood with 6 permanent resources will make the troop 6/6 now? or 12/12? because the card doesnt say anything about until end of turn.

fido_one
04-08-2016, 01:31 PM
Course, sorry for the late release! Was planning on having this initially be an article on the main page, but ended up slotting it in here.

Of note, these changes will also be listed in the Primal Dawn FAQ when that is released on the day that Primal Dawn cards go into the client!

I like that this is posted in the forums; the front page can get a bit overwhelming, and posting it here makes it a lot more prone for us to directly discuss the ramifications of such changes.

Audens
04-08-2016, 01:49 PM
So titanias majesty into a heart of the wrathwood with 6 permanent resources will make the troop 6/6 now? or 12/12? because the card doesnt say anything about until end of turn.

I think that counts as an "indefinite modifier," so the copy would be a 6/6.

I like the changes, much more intuitive and logical. Not quite sure it's accurate to say that you're not changing PvP cards though, given the previous article on the rules for copies.

Magician
04-08-2016, 01:50 PM
Any word on copies of escalation cards on the chain going to crypt instead of going into the deck? Seems counter intuitive.

Hmm, I'll have QA look into this again for me. Are you talking about a copied Escalation card in the general sense or if you copied it while it was on the chain (Mostly via Chimes of the Zodiac). Either way, these should go to the deck as part of resolution. Thus, unless the target was removed, or the card is interrupted, the Escalation card should end up in your deck when they finish (Because all of them say Put this into your deck).


So titanias majesty into a heart of the wrathwood with 6 permanent resources will make the troop 6/6 now? or 12/12? because the card doesnt say anything about until end of turn.

Correct. The duration example I gave regarding the Wild Growth can be ignored here, because the duration not being explicitly stated implies that the modifier is permanent.

Therefore, with our Heart of the Wrathwood here, it falls in to the second camp of what we call an indefinite modifier. Essentially, any modifier that calls out "have/has" will usually fall into this camp. "Shin'hare you control have +1ATK/+1 DEF"; "Troops you control have +1ATK."; "Cards in your hand have cost -[(1)]."; "This has +1[ATK]/+1[DEF] in all zones for each card in your crypt."; "This has +1[ATK]/+1[DEF] for each permanent resource you have."; Each of these are examples of indefinite modifiers. Usually these effect will modify many things, sometimes they'll be modifying itself at all times while in a specific zone.

So the reason the Heart of the Wrathwood remains a 6ATK/6DEF troop and is no longer a 12ATK/12DEF troop has to do with the no longer copying of indefinite modifiers, rather than the duration we're calling out on the troop's power.



I like that this is posted in the forums; the front page can get a bit overwhelming, and posting it here makes it a lot more prone for us to directly discuss the ramifications of such changes.

Appreciate the feedback. I'll be sure to let folks know. If more people feel this way, maybe this is the more effective way to communicate these things. I just worry putting it in the forums means our community has to dig for it a little more to find that information, and I'd rather everyone were fully informed of the situation without having to search it out if at all possible.

Tazelbain
04-08-2016, 01:59 PM
Hmm, I'll have QA look into this again for me. Are you talking about a copied Escalation card in the general sense or if you copied it while it was on the chain (Mostly via Chimes of the Zodiac). Either way, these should go to the deck as part of resolution. Thus, unless the target was removed, or the card is interrupted, the Escalation card should end up in your deck when they finish (Because all of them say Put this into your deck).

Copied on the chain like with Chimes of the Zodiac and cards with Thunderfield Elder's prophecy.

Estar1
04-08-2016, 02:01 PM
The new rules make infinitely more sense especially in relation to indefinite modifires, my intution says when i copy my 6/6 heart of the wildwood, i get a 6/6 (not a 12/12 like before).

IronPheasant
04-08-2016, 02:02 PM
The first bug fixed is that if your High Tomb Lord was in play as a 1ATK/1DEF (1 cards in your crypt), a copy would then be a 1ATK/1DEF (1 cards in your crypt and +1ATK/+1DEF from the old High Tomb Lord). This was confusing, no doubt about it.

Looks like a bit of a typo here.

Thoom
04-08-2016, 02:03 PM
I feel like in terms of intuition about what a copy should be, the unique tag should be removed, because there's no obvious lore reason why an effect that can create a copy of a sentient being wouldn't work just because they were sufficiently famous.

However, I understand that game balance may not permit that. Instead, I propose a small graphical tweak to copies of unique cards, demonstrated here on Archmage Wrenlocke:

http://i.imgur.com/lI9Q5Mn.jpg

Now it's clear that the copy is actually an evil twin from a parallel dimension who murdered (edit: sorry, killed) the original upon arrival. No more confusion!

fido_one
04-08-2016, 02:09 PM
I feel like in terms of intuition about what a copy should be, the unique tag should be removed, because there's no obvious lore reason why an effect that can create a copy of a sentient being wouldn't work just because they were sufficiently famous.

However, I understand that game balance may not permit that. Instead, I propose a small graphical tweak to copies of unique cards, demonstrated here on Archmage Wrenlocke:

http://i.imgur.com/lI9Q5Mn.jpg

Now it's clear that the copy is actually an evil twin from a parallel dimension who murdered (edit: sorry, killed) the original upon arrival. No more confusion!

Saw the beard before the evil twin comment; got the gist even before reading the explanation.

*golf clap* well done sir!

wolzarg
04-08-2016, 02:20 PM
As one of the lets be honest whiniest people about the old interaction i love you guys for making this change. It in my mind at least absolutely makes it all much more intuitive and is an all around better design form for it.

Stay awesome always!

bootlace
04-08-2016, 03:00 PM
Is it normal that when you copy (with Scheme) a Chronic Madness (with 'bury 12 cards') it creates copies that only buries 4 cards?

Xenavire
04-08-2016, 03:02 PM
Is it normal that when you copy (with Scheme) a Chronic Madness (with 'bury 12 cards') it creates copies that only buries 4 cards?

Scheme (IIRC) doesn't create copies, it creates cards with that name.

bootlace
04-08-2016, 03:06 PM
Scheme (IIRC) doesn't create copies, it creates cards with that name.

Ah right, that explains it.

Aradon
04-08-2016, 03:20 PM
I love this rules update. Fixing the static modifiers is so much more intuitive. I was ok with how it treated temporary modifiers like Giant Growth, but I'm also ok with treating them in the more balanced method.

Audens
04-08-2016, 03:30 PM
I love this rules update. Fixing the static modifiers is so much more intuitive. I was ok with how it treated temporary modifiers like Giant Growth, but I'm also ok with treating them in the more balanced method.

Are you trying to get Cryptozoic sued again? :p

ossuary
04-08-2016, 03:34 PM
These are good updates, and will definitely be less confusing for people in general, and new players in particular. Well done guys! :)

To follow up on what a few others have said about copies of escalation cards, currently if something copies an escalation card on the chain (chimes, periwinkle if the cost has been increased, thunderfield elder's power, etc.), the copy will do the correctly escalated effect (damage, number of rhinos, etc.), but will then go to the crypt instead of being shuffled back into the deck. It happens the same with all sources of copy, so it's definitely a mechanics-based bug as opposed to a card-specific bug.

We reported this on Mantis months ago, but it may be one of those ones that slipped through the cracks or was too complicated and fringe to fix at the time. Now that you guys are specifically retooling copy mechanics, it seems like a good time to close the loop on that one, too. :)

05K4R
04-08-2016, 03:37 PM
Awesome to have this explained! I agree that the old rules were confusing at first but after getting used to them it was okay, however the new rules makes more sense and it's probably better in the long run.

Xavon
04-08-2016, 03:48 PM
Hooray, the Killapede (stage one) doesn't neuter one of the Cleric's best abilities anymore.

Mejis
04-08-2016, 03:55 PM
Hooray, the Killapede (stage one) doesn't neuter one of the Cleric's best abilities anymore.

I've just woken up so can't think straight, but which one do you mean?

Also, fantastic info and clarifications in the OP, great job. These rules make a lot of sense and seem very intuitive to me now.

Aradon
04-08-2016, 04:02 PM
I've just woken up so can't think straight, but which one do you mean?

Also, fantastic info and clarifications in the OP, great job. These rules make a lot of sense and seem very intuitive to me now.

The Divine Altar creates a copy of each cleric you play. Since they are -1/-1 because of the passive ability, the second cleric used to be -1/-1 smaller, then get the -1/-1 applied to itself as well. Now it won't double up on the penalties.

Magician
04-08-2016, 04:54 PM
I feel like in terms of intuition about what a copy should be, the unique tag should be removed, because there's no obvious lore reason why an effect that can create a copy of a sentient being wouldn't work just because they were sufficiently famous.

However, I understand that game balance may not permit that. Instead, I propose a small graphical tweak to copies of unique cards, demonstrated here on Archmage Wrenlocke:

http://i.imgur.com/lI9Q5Mn.jpg

Now it's clear that the copy is actually an evil twin from a parallel dimension who murdered (edit: sorry, killed) the original upon arrival. No more confusion!

Haha this is fantastic, i love this!

That being said, the reason why copies copy over the uniqueness tag has to do with Replicas. We wanted to make sure that the thematic space of copies and replcias were separate, and people wouldn't get confused "What's a replica?" or "What's a copy?" Making sure that each effect had it's own rules specific to it helps build up what those effect actually do.

We felt that, in the case of the Dwarves, Replicas would be better spent to be the "non-unique" version as you're producing an army of Robots of that troop in question. Therefore, it would be pretty weird to be the same thing as what you had replicated, and they could exist at the same time.

So this was done more for thematic reasons and less for pure power concerns. An awesome question and awesome piece of art adapation though! It actually made me double take.


Is it normal that when you copy (with Scheme) a Chronic Madness (with 'bury 12 cards') it creates copies that only buries 4 cards?

Hey Bootlace, the reason (as explained by Xenavire before me) is because Scheme is making cards with the same name. We didn't use copies just yet, and as such, we made cards with the same name, like we would when spelling out what card we were making.

It's good to point this out though, as you are not the only person who's been confused by this that if we did more of these power in the future "creating cards with the same name" effect should likely be "Create copies of that card" to avoid having so many cards/power doing a variety of different, yet similar things.

wolzarg
04-08-2016, 06:16 PM
That said making copies is a more powerful effect so it would be more restrictive so maybe there is space for both or i guess making copies and reverting also works but that gets wordy fast.

Biz
04-09-2016, 12:08 AM
can you explain why using 1 countermagic on a card that gets copied twice only results in 1 activation instead of 2?

ossuary
04-09-2016, 07:07 AM
Activation of what, exactly? You'll need to clarify that statement.

Malicus
04-09-2016, 08:22 AM
I understand the change but personally am not happy about it - I liked the benefit of indefinite modifiers it made for interesting interactions. I'm going to wish a lot of cards made replicas instead of copies now which is a bit sad but hopefully it wouldn't have mattered once we are deck building with set 4 anyway.

hex_colin
04-09-2016, 08:22 AM
I'll be honest and say what most of the player base is already thinking...the Primal Dawn mechanics just made using copies much less desirable and fun to use.

I doubt you speak for most of the playerbase. I prefer rules that are intuitive. Copies now work they way I'd expect them to work.

Aradon
04-09-2016, 08:32 AM
Then you should go back to playing Hearts or Spades if you have a hard time understanding strategy.

You talk about understanding strategy, but you should consider understanding balance a little more. If copies are now weaker than they were before, they can become less costly, which could easily mean more playable copy mechanics. Imagine a 4-cost 'Create a copy and put it into play' card before being potentially very powerful, since it can make Wild Growth permanent, but now you could get a 'Create a copy of a troop' for less resources. Balance and power level are maintained.

hex_colin
04-09-2016, 08:43 AM
Nothing to see here. Apology accepted. <3

magic_gazz
04-09-2016, 10:36 AM
So I just cast scheme on an escalated card but the schemed copy was not escalated, is that a bug or am I misunderstanding how its supposed to work?

Reeplay
04-09-2016, 10:49 AM
So I just cast scheme on an escalated card but the schemed copy was not escalated, is that a bug or am I misunderstanding how its supposed to work?

Read scheme. It doesn't copy only make cards with the same name.

Also I'm happy with the copy changes, they all make logical sense

wolzarg
04-09-2016, 12:49 PM
I don't presume to know better than who ever moderated this thread. But when you remove every post by someone but keep all replies with quotes you basically didn't remove it and just made the conversation hard to follow.

If that was the intent or for some reason how you want it either just ignore or remove this i just wanted to point it out.

PS. Still absolutely love literally every single part of this change and how it interacts with other cards best rule change ever!

KeplerVerge
04-09-2016, 01:08 PM
can you explain why using 1 countermagic on a card that gets copied twice only results in 1 activation instead of 2?


Activation of what, exactly? You'll need to clarify that statement.

example:
Burn has 2x Thunderfield Elder copy effects on it

Play Burn
Copy #1 goes onto chain.
Opponent plays Countermagic on original Burn.
Countermagic resolves, original Burn goes to crypt.
Burn copy #1 resolves.

Burn copy #2 never enters the chain, despite the wording being "when you play this, copy it"

Timlagor
04-09-2016, 02:01 PM
Like the changes/fixes.
There definitely was an issue with copies made in Arena by the champ who creates copies of a card of your choice at the start of the match (Wild Root Dancer? -I'm sure you know who I mean anyway). It sounds like that might be the same as the one people mentioned for making copies on the 'stack'.

I do find it a bit weird that the copy effect happens before you can interrupt -we're definitely into balance issues with changing that though.


I don't presume to know better than who ever moderated this thread. But when you remove every post by someone but keep all replies with quotes you basically didn't remove it and just made the conversation hard to follow.

Yep I just spent a minute looking for that/those posts too.

ossuary
04-09-2016, 03:54 PM
example:
Burn has 2x Thunderfield Elder copy effects on it

Play Burn
Copy #1 goes onto chain.
Opponent plays Countermagic on original Burn.
Countermagic resolves, original Burn goes to crypt.
Burn copy #1 resolves.

Burn copy #2 never enters the chain, despite the wording being "when you play this, copy it"

Okay, I see what you're saying now. That interaction has always felt a little strange to me. Rules as written it makes sense if you follow it all through logically, but it is definitely a little cumbersome and confusing.

What is happening is that since the 2 copies are separate effects on the card, they're attempting to resolve one at a time, and your opponent gets a chance to respond to each event. If they completely interrupt the card before the 2nd trigger generates, it never generates, because the card has been interrupted.

The first copy happens no matter what, because it's generated immediately when the card is first played. But that trigger that created the copy goes to the chain and generates an opportunity for the opponent to respond, which supersedes additional triggers until it is processed (due to LIFO), so interrupting the original at that point breaks the chain and prevents any further copies from happening. When the remaining copy triggers attempt to happen, they see that the card is now interrupted, so there is no longer a valid card on the chain TO copy, it's in the crypt.

I honestly couldn't tell you whether or not this could / should / will be changed. That's a Hex rules guru question. It's not "technically" a bug, but I would say that it feels like an unfortunate side effect of how the chain resolution of multiple triggers happens. Only CZE can tell us whether or not they think it needs to be changed, or if they're going to work on doing so.

HEXahedron
04-09-2016, 04:30 PM
Okay, I see what you're saying now. That interaction has always felt a little strange to me. Rules as written it makes sense if you follow it all through logically, but it is definitely a little cumbersome and confusing.

What is happening is that since the 2 copies are separate effects on the card, they're attempting to resolve one at a time, and your opponent gets a chance to respond to each event. If they completely interrupt the card before the 2nd trigger generates, it never generates, because the card has been interrupted.

The first copy happens no matter what, because it's generated immediately when the card is first played. But that trigger that created the copy goes to the chain and generates an opportunity for the opponent to respond, which supersedes additional triggers until it is processed (due to LIFO), so interrupting the original at that point breaks the chain and prevents any further copies from happening. When the remaining copy triggers attempt to happen, they see that the card is now interrupted, so there is no longer a valid card on the chain TO copy, it's in the crypt.

I honestly couldn't tell you whether or not this could / should / will be changed. That's a Hex rules guru question. It's not "technically" a bug, but I would say that it feels like an unfortunate side effect of how the chain resolution of multiple triggers happens. Only CZE can tell us whether or not they think it needs to be changed, or if they're going to work on doing so.

Just going to clarify this a little more specifically.

When a copy is created, the power that created it usually has to specify where the copy goes (e.g. "... and put it into play"). There is a special rule for creating copies of cards that are on the chain, however, where those cards are automatically put onto the chain when they are created. This rule also automatically allows for the player to pick new targets for the copy.

So what's happening is that since the resolution of the first "copy this" power results in priority being passed prior to the resolution of the second "copy this", the original Burn can be interrupted before it is copied. This means that when the second power resolves, it is copying a card in the crypt. But the game doesn't know where to put this second copy, since the copied card is not on the chain and the power doesn't specifically say to put the copy anywhere, so the created copy never enters any zone. It technically still exists, stuck in a special non-zone that the game uses for creation effects.

And yes, Ossuary is correct that this is not a bug.


I don't presume to know better than who ever moderated this thread. But when you remove every post by someone but keep all replies with quotes you basically didn't remove it and just made the conversation hard to follow.

The only posts in this thread that were deleted by moderators were those that had been edited by their poster to be empty of content.

05K4R
04-09-2016, 04:33 PM
Okay, I see what you're saying now. That interaction has always felt a little strange to me. Rules as written it makes sense if you follow it all through logically, but it is definitely a little cumbersome and confusing.

What is happening is that since the 2 copies are separate effects on the card, they're attempting to resolve one at a time, and your opponent gets a chance to respond to each event. If they completely interrupt the card before the 2nd trigger generates, it never generates, because the card has been interrupted.

The first copy happens no matter what, because it's generated immediately when the card is first played. But that trigger that created the copy goes to the chain and generates an opportunity for the opponent to respond, which supersedes additional triggers until it is processed (due to LIFO), so interrupting the original at that point breaks the chain and prevents any further copies from happening. When the remaining copy triggers attempt to happen, they see that the card is now interrupted, so there is no longer a valid card on the chain TO copy, it's in the crypt.

I honestly couldn't tell you whether or not this could / should / will be changed. That's a Hex rules guru question. It's not "technically" a bug, but I would say that it feels like an unfortunate side effect of how the chain resolution of multiple triggers happens. Only CZE can tell us whether or not they think it needs to be changed, or if they're going to work on doing so.

Oh, now that makes sense! I've thought about that for a while, but couldn't get my head around it. So if you interrupt copy #1 instead of the original, you get a copy #2 right?

Biz
04-09-2016, 04:56 PM
the resolution of the first "copy this" power results in priority being passed prior to the resolution of the second "copy this"

why should there be priority before one and not the other?
identical effects should behave identically

HEXahedron
04-09-2016, 05:08 PM
why should there be priority before one and not the other?
identical effects should behave identically

They are behaving identically. They each create priority after their resolution, because they put a new card onto the chain (unless something happens to prevent that new card from entering the chain).

05K4R
04-09-2016, 05:12 PM
A question about the original post by Magician, I'm wondering about this rule:



powers are not restored to the copy if the original card has used its power.

Since it is the only rule that doesn't begin with an uppercase letter, I think that it may have been copied directly from a document and there should be a 1-SHOT image or something before 'powers'. Is this the case, or is the current rule in the correct form?

wolzarg
04-09-2016, 05:27 PM
The only posts in this thread that were deleted by moderators were those that had been edited by their poster to be empty of content.
My bad then, as a reason to not make me a moderator i want to point out i would have restored the text to those posts instead.

ossuary
04-09-2016, 05:53 PM
Oh, now that makes sense! I've thought about that for a while, but couldn't get my head around it. So if you interrupt copy #1 instead of the original, you get a copy #2 right?

That's correct. If you interrupt the copy instead of the original, the original will continue to process its remaining text (such as creating additional copies after the first).

Also, thanks to HEXahedron for providing additional clarification to what I said earlier. :)

Gwaer
04-09-2016, 10:38 PM
I'm glad you're finally coming around Corey. Now there's just a couple of other small matters you guys need to attend to. ;)

Timlagor
04-10-2016, 11:40 AM
They are behaving identically. They each create priority after their resolution, because they put a new card onto the chain (unless something happens to prevent that new card from entering the chain).

Now that seems strange, What I see is:
1) Put Burn on chain
2) Create Copy 1
3) Give priority

How come 2 gives priority to the other player but 1 does not?

Gwaer
04-10-2016, 12:00 PM
The copy creation is a triggered effect that happens when the card is played. You still get priority for both burns, but not before that copy effect had triggered

Biz
04-10-2016, 12:07 PM
i can see how it works as a program, and i appreciate the explanation

but the card wording does not suggest that it works like this at all. it only makes sense if you combine that with some obscure reverse-engineering of the programming.

it would be better to fix the rule or update the card text of copiers to not be misleading imo

ossuary
04-10-2016, 12:12 PM
Now that seems strange, What I see is:
1) Put Burn on chain
2) Create Copy 1
3) Give priority

How come 2 gives priority to the other player but 1 does not?

Your understanding is flawed. 1) does give priority to the other player, but FIRST a non-targeted trigger happens (create a copy), which supersedes the player-visible chain.

If the effect generated by the trigger did not require priority itself (say the effect was "deal 1 damage to each opposing champion" instead of "create a copy"), no additional items would show up in the chain at all, and if you had that text added to the card being played twice, it would deal damage twice without giving the other player any chance to respond.

But since the non-targeted trigger creates a respond-able event, the rules engine dictates that the other player gets priority to attempt to respond to the new event before it continues on to the next non-targeted trigger (in this case, creating the 2nd copy). The game is still handling both events the same way, but the SITUATION changes between copy #1 and copy #2, therefore you get different results.

Salverus
04-10-2016, 12:32 PM
if i have oberon's eulogy in play and 5 troops in graveyard and then play a troop, it gets +5/+5, if i then make a copy of that troop, does it get the +5/+5 from the original + another +5/+5 from the eulogy?

05K4R
04-10-2016, 12:49 PM
if i have oberon's eulogy in play and 5 troops in graveyard and then play a troop, it gets +5/+5, if i then make a copy of that troop, does it get the +5/+5 from the original + another +5/+5 from the eulogy?

Yes, it should get +10/+10 in total as long as it enters play.

Salverus
04-10-2016, 12:54 PM
but what is the definition of enters play ? You hard cast it from hand, thus copy from periwinkle does not count as enters play?

Xenavire
04-10-2016, 01:15 PM
but what is the definition of enters play ? You hard cast it from hand, thus copy from periwinkle does not count as enters play?

For Peri, the copy would be on the chain, meaning it wouldn't trigger Eulogy yet. The original enters play after the copy, so using the +5/+5 example, both the original and the copy would get +5/+5 (as long as nothing changed before the original resolves.)

(In case the question is purely about entering play, it requires the troop to resolve and enter the warzone, or be put into the warzone by means of some sort of ability.)