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Shaqattaq
04-08-2016, 04:40 PM
Hi HEXers. It’s time for the Friday update. As you saw, we patched this week with many bug fixes and quality of life improvements. We also sent out most of the remaining Kickstarter promo cards and their corresponding equipment. We hope you’re having fun with all the new deckbuilding possibilities you’ll find for your Campaign character.

https://www.hextcg.com/hex-update-more-of-that-polish/

fabriazp
04-08-2016, 04:53 PM
not even a single spoiled card? :(

superdax
04-08-2016, 05:14 PM
Yeah spoiler cards have been COMPLETELY absent since 1 week.... why?????

Superjuice
04-08-2016, 05:19 PM
So about set 4.... :(

Mejis
04-08-2016, 05:20 PM
Argh still no release date makes me sad :-/
Have we run out of spoilers too? ;)

But, the patch this week was fantastic, and I do applaud the polish. Things look very very slick. Although please let me Tab to my authenticator box again with the next update :)

incitfulmonk21
04-08-2016, 05:54 PM
Still no release date and early April is over in two days. Fun fact it takes less time to conceive, grow, and have a human baby than for HXE to make a set.

Shaqattaq
04-08-2016, 06:04 PM
not even a single spoiled card? :(

Nope. Not this time.


Yeah spoiler cards have been COMPLETELY absent since 1 week.... why?????

There were spoilers last week, and we released spoilers through a multitude of different communications channels like the forums, player Twitch channels, etc... since our Primal Dawn announcement


Argh still no release date makes me sad :-/
Have we run out of spoilers too? ;)

But, the patch this week was fantastic, and I do applaud the polish. Things look very very slick. Although please let me Tab to my authenticator box again with the next update :)

Not run out. Just a little short. =)

Glad to hear you liked the patch. Good point for your authenticator box. I'll submit that, and you should put it in the bugs area to make sure someone sees it. We'll get that back in.


Still no release date and early April is over in two days. Fun fact it takes less time to conceive, grow, and have a human baby than for HXE to make a set.

Damn! That's cold, but true. There's no Primal Dawn yet, but we do have this polish patch with big fixes plus steam coming up. Verifying these bug fixes and quality of life improvements before releasing Primal Dawn will give its release weekend the best chance at success and running smoothly.

superdax
04-08-2016, 06:14 PM
Nope. Not this time.



There were spoilers last week, and we released spoilers through a multitude of different communications channels like the forums, player Twitch channels, etc... since our Primal Dawn announcement



Not run out. Just a little short. =)

Glad to hear you liked the patch. Good point for your authenticator box. I'll submit that, and you should put it in the bugs area to make sure someone sees it. We'll get that back in.



Damn! That's cold, but true. There's no Primal Dawn yet, but we do have this polish patch with big fixes plus steam coming up. Verifying these bug fixes and quality of life improvements before releasing Primal Dawn will give its release weekend the best chance at success and running smoothly.


I have to agree that it must not be easy to be you guys. Thank you Shaqattaq for all your responses and the time you take to answer. Its really appreciated. But you do know that alot of us are waiting IMPATIENTLY to play some set 4 and the fact that we ask is because you have people that love Hex and can't wait

Also thanks to all of you for the QoL update. Its quite nice :)

magic_gazz
04-08-2016, 06:34 PM
but we do have this polish patch with big fixes plus steam coming up.

Would rather have set 4.

Metronomy
04-08-2016, 06:49 PM
I will just reiterate that this cannot happen for set 5 and sets after that. For set 4 I will say nothing anymore but lets assume you say set 5 is basically done in 4 months and when you then need 3 more months to actually release..then this wont fly. You can polish to perfection but if it comes a month or two too late because of that the damage is potentialy bigger than having a few bugs.

ThrawnOmega
04-08-2016, 10:14 PM
Would rather have set 4.

+1. I feel the priority should be Primal Dawn release, the Steam a week or two later. I think it's going to happen the other way around though.

I love you guys and gals, I really, really do. But I'm turning into Kylo Ren every time there's another update saying its "soon." Please. I can only take it so much. Happy for the distraction for a weekend of the Wild Cup's unique format.

GobBluth
04-08-2016, 10:43 PM
LOL at anyone who thought we would get set 4 early April. I think George Bush said it best: "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me, you can't get fooled again." I wonder what he would say about getting fooled 1000 times?

Aradon
04-08-2016, 10:50 PM
While I'll wait patiently, I have to admit that going from "We're still on track for early April!" to "You can look forward to a release date soon!" is a bit hard. It helps knowing that in the past, release dates have only preceded the actual release by about a week or so, but it definitely feels like one or two steps back.

In any case, I hope everything goes well and the Steam launch is successful and productive! I'm still undecided about linking Steam accounts. I'd like to post a review and rating, but I'd rather support Hex more directly with my money.

Mejis
04-08-2016, 10:56 PM
Has anyone heard whether steam release definitely won't coincide with set 4? Was it in the steam thread? I'm just wondering if that's why things might be a bit cagey, given there's no confirmed steam date yet, or if it is simply that this polish patch may have lead to further tweaks needed for a smooth set 4 patch?

Shaqattaq
04-09-2016, 12:08 AM
I will just reiterate that this cannot happen for set 5 and sets after that. For set 4 I will say nothing anymore but lets assume you say set 5 is basically done in 4 months and when you then need 3 more months to actually release..then this wont fly. You can polish to perfection but if it comes a month or two too late because of that the damage is potentialy bigger than having a few bugs.

I'd agree with you and say that we're doing everything to improve our release timing for future PVP sets, but I feel we have to first execute on it and then we can say that we did it, not that we're going to do it, you know?

AstaSyneri
04-09-2016, 12:24 AM
I don't mind the Set 4 delays (busy with RL as it is). I would just like to get my Spectral Lotus gardens and the Uruunaz starter...

Plus: Please fix the api.ini bug. That ruined a nice little Arena run. :(

The_Lannisters
04-09-2016, 12:58 AM
This has to be the weakest and most disappointing Friday update ever. No release date yet is really really bad. Not a few spoilers to sweeten the pill is just dismal.

Oh well.

Cernz
04-09-2016, 02:07 AM
Sad but true ;(

Elwinz
04-09-2016, 02:14 AM
ewvne one spoiler would make it so different, dissapointment is real

Reckless
04-09-2016, 02:40 AM
so many soon's i realy can't read this word anymore ><
Man i love Hex so much but this love feels so one-sided at the moment and everyone knows what this feeling is..
i think you guys give your best but there realy has to come any true informations this update can't just be the way to go here :/
I need some optimists posting in here Dino, Alu and Colin where are you?

aleluja
04-09-2016, 05:45 AM
If money is a problem, and 99% it is, why don't you sell sleeve's and dust for real money only? we can perfectly play and win without them.

Lion_Slicer
04-09-2016, 06:21 AM
I'm less than nobody on this forum, but man I'm getting tired of waiting. My play time is down significantly, I haven't played a draft or bought plat in months.

Why even have an update if there's no information? This is starting to feel like Solforge did circa 2013. Anyone that's followed that game knows where they're at right now: also "Waiting, don't worry!" forever. Really disappointing.

hex_colin
04-09-2016, 07:33 AM
I need some optimists posting in here Dino, Alu and Colin where are you?

I'm as disappointed as anyone that we don't have Set 4 or a Release date yet. :( I have faith that this is the last time we won't have a pretty firm release schedule though. The Steam timing and approval was a wildcard that wasn't completely in HEX's control. And the bug fixes and polish are critically important the bigger our population grows.

Every time you see a patch that fixes stuff that's visible to us, you can bet that there's a lot more happening behind the scenes that's not obvious to us, but is equally, if not more, important to the long-term health of the game.

I'm clearly just more patient in my old age... ;)

poizonous
04-09-2016, 09:48 AM
Colin i think you are more calm about hex because you see more of the behind the scenes stuff than most of us. I mean i am a realist with my thought process and i can come off pessimistic but until Colin completely loses his patience i still have a little faith in hex

Renquist
04-09-2016, 11:26 AM
Terrible.

Pitiful execution on your part.

edit - It's sad that you cater to players who havn't even joined the game before you take the time to take care of the ones who are currently playing

plaguedealer
04-09-2016, 12:29 PM
I think it is great we got a patch, got kickstarter rewards and the game is coming to steam. The company is obviously hard at work.

However, the company really needs to work on communication. What is the status of set 4? Are bugs causing delays or does the company want to make sure the steam release is flawless before set 4? Whatever the answer would be, the vast majority of people maybe sad, but at least there is a discussion about it. Saying nothing is not the right answer.

Mejis
04-09-2016, 02:31 PM
I'm as disappointed as anyone that we don't have Set 4 or a Release date yet. :( I have faith that this is the last time we won't have a pretty firm release schedule though. The Steam timing and approval was a wildcard that wasn't completely in HEX's control. And the bug fixes and polish are critically important the bigger our population grows.

Every time you see a patch that fixes stuff that's visible to us, you can bet that there's a lot more happening behind the scenes that's not obvious to us, but is equally, if not more, important to the long-term health of the game.

I'm clearly just more patient in my old age... ;)

See, this is good info. I feel the playerbase would be happier with the wait if something like this had been said in the update.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel being honest about an unplayed delay (I.e. sounds like steam proceeding/coinciding with set 4 wasn't a factor last month) would keep everyone happy and understanding of the situation. I know you guys have been burned by previous release snags, but every time Cory or Chris have stepped in and said "look everyone, we've had an issue with x that has pushed things back just slightly, here's what's happening..." people have had their disappointments dampened and understanding levels hit the roof.
Chris' memory leak post before set 3 was amazing. We got to hear the intricacies of why making a sausage was proving tricky. Everyone applauded it and if anything made the set 3 hype higher.

benczi
04-10-2016, 06:41 AM
If only this update didn't break the actual game :((((. Can't play any games anymore, it just won't start a game.

Renquist
04-10-2016, 12:00 PM
If only this update didn't break the actual game :((((. Can't play any games anymore, it just won't start a game.


Delete your api folder

Shaqattaq
04-11-2016, 11:41 AM
I think it is great we got a patch, got kickstarter rewards and the game is coming to steam. The company is obviously hard at work.

However, the company really needs to work on communication. What is the status of set 4? Are bugs causing delays or does the company want to make sure the steam release is flawless before set 4? Whatever the answer would be, the vast majority of people maybe sad, but at least there is a discussion about it. Saying nothing is not the right answer.

I can understand this perspective, but it's a complicated problem. Let's start with the assumption that the community, as a collection of individuals, will theoretically want infinite information. What satisfies one player's desire for information may not satisfy another, whether that's on depth on a specific topic or on the topic itself. So, it's an impossible goal but in general we try to share as much as possible.

There's a general issue with providing information, though. Information creates expectations, which makes sense. If we say something, you should be able to take it at face value. In this case, we don't have accurate information to share. Giving you a date is, in a vacuum, easy, and certainly makes everyone happy-- you now have a specific target, and I don't have to address questions about the launch date anymore. If we had a date to share, certainly we would share it.

But, we don't have a specific launch date to share. And as we give pieces of information as to why we don't have a date to announce, players would draw certain conclusions as to what the new information means when there's no hard, defined information available. We have players who try to noodle out the range of "soon" as an example. And if we hypothetically said "bugs," players would then want to know which exact bugs, which could (again, speaking in hypoptheticals) be pages upon pages of reports and information that changes at on hour-to-hour basis. And then what the expected timeframe was to solve said bugs. And then they'd debate which bugs weren't an issue and which ones were. And what if we have a range, but it's not a solid range and has to take in a bunch of other variables that we have a range on, but are not solid? We're at the same exact end-- no defined answer, and here we have a lot of information without full context that creates confusion at best.

It's natural to want to put together a bunch of disparate pieces of information to come to an answer-- there's a question, and we as humans will try to use and mold information in order to create an answer. It's a puzzle, in that similar to a trading card game itself. But there in lies the problem. There is no answer. Any attempt to read between the lines will likely lead someone to incorrect conclusions and ultimately unrealized expectations.

It's not an ideal answer, but the answer is that we're closer every week and once we're able to give a specific date, we will. And you will know that specific date is as reliable as it can be and that we are confident in it. The old world we lived in was giving dates to satisfy players' wants, then unfortunately having those dates move on us because we gave them too early with too many unknowns still unresolved. That led to players making decisions and plans based on the info we gave, then having to re-arrange their lives when our dates moved. That's simply not respectful of the players' time. We want to not just give information, but to give better information. And that's why we do what we do now.

Gwaer
04-11-2016, 12:01 PM
Let me try my hand at an update: They're working on it, they desperately want set4 released. Cory called out in an earlier interview what a mistake it was to have so much time between sets and that they're going to try desperately to get this set out asap and future sets out much much faster. Sadly no exact dates. But every day is a day closer. And we will hopefully never be in this situation again.

I'll be happy to drop in daily to mention that it's being worked on as quickly as possible. Just in case.

katkillad
04-11-2016, 12:18 PM
It's not an ideal answer, but the answer is that we're closer every week and once we're able to give a specific date, we will. And you will know that specific date is as reliable as it can be and that we are confident in it. The old world we lived in was giving dates to satisfy players' wants, then unfortunately having those dates move on us because we gave them too early with too many unknowns still unresolved. That led to players making decisions and plans based on the info we gave, then having to re-arrange their lives when our dates moved. That's simply not respectful of the players' time. We want to not just give information, but to give better information. And that's why we do what we do now.

The same thing pretty much happened when "early april" was thrown out though. I appreciate what you say, I would rather not have the "soon" stuff and just get a date when it's solid and definite.

I will fall into your trap though and extrapolate that April might be off the table for set 4.

Cernz
04-11-2016, 12:19 PM
hm :( guess ill soon buy some plat.

Renquist
04-11-2016, 12:35 PM
This isn't me noodling anything out of your post but you did imply that we were weeks away from a set 4 release.

I can appreciate that you would have issues developing a timeline the first 2 possibly 3 sets but by now if you don't have an understanding as to where you should be at than hire someone to take notes.

Get a project manager their entire job is to delegate and manage timelines. This all or nothing approach to communication is terrible even if you take a wall of text to try to explain your rational there.

fido_one
04-11-2016, 12:45 PM
I can understand this perspective, but it's a complicated problem. Let's start with the assumption that the community, as a collection of individuals, will theoretically want infinite information. What satisfies one player's desire for information may not satisfy another, whether that's on depth on a specific topic or on the topic itself. So, it's an impossible goal but in general we try to share as much as possible.

There's a general issue with providing information, though. Information creates expectations, which makes sense. If we say something, you should be able to take it at face value. In this case, we don't have accurate information to share. Giving you a date is, in a vacuum, easy, and certainly makes everyone happy-- you now have a specific target, and I don't have to address questions about the launch date anymore. If we had a date to share, certainly we would share it.

But, we don't have a specific launch date to share. And as we give pieces of information as to why we don't have a date to announce, players would draw certain conclusions as to what the new information means when there's no hard, defined information available. We have players who try to noodle out the range of "soon" as an example. And if we hypothetically said "bugs," players would then want to know which exact bugs, which could (again, speaking in hypoptheticals) be pages upon pages of reports and information that changes at on hour-to-hour basis. And then what the expected timeframe was to solve said bugs. And then they'd debate which bugs weren't an issue and which ones were. And what if we have a range, but it's not a solid range and has to take in a bunch of other variables that we have a range on, but are not solid? We're at the same exact end-- no defined answer, and here we have a lot of information without full context that creates confusion at best.

It's natural to want to put together a bunch of disparate pieces of information to come to an answer-- there's a question, and we as humans will try to use and mold information in order to create an answer. It's a puzzle, in that similar to a trading card game itself. But there in lies the problem. There is no answer. Any attempt to read between the lines will likely lead someone to incorrect conclusions and ultimately unrealized expectations.

It's not an ideal answer, but the answer is that we're closer every week and once we're able to give a specific date, we will. And you will know that specific date is as reliable as it can be and that we are confident in it. The old world we lived in was giving dates to satisfy players' wants, then unfortunately having those dates move on us because we gave them too early with too many unknowns still unresolved. That led to players making decisions and plans based on the info we gave, then having to re-arrange their lives when our dates moved. That's simply not respectful of the players' time. We want to not just give information, but to give better information. And that's why we do what we do now.

Thanks for this! I think what makes the matter 100 times worse for you all is that your player base is extraordinarily adept at using the logic that complicates the matters you put forth. Hex is a very complicated game and can be a very expensive game, so the community has a bit more oomph than normal behind the 'we want to know' as it typically is directly associated with their investment into the game. An RPG or action game, you pay for it, if it is released, you see the value and that's that. If Hex stops being successful the tens/hundreds/thousands dollar investment is destroyed so there is extra incentive for information. The 'pick apart the info and come up with hypotheticals' is a lot worse with our community as well as that methodology is inherent in playing Hex and making decks, etc.

EDIT: A lot of times saying 'we have no info we can give out' is a lot better than nothing. Again, I think we get a bit more anxious as our investment is pretty closely tied to things like a new set release or going to Steam. Know it is more important for the good people at HexEnt but sadly I wouldn't expect the community to keep that in mind.

Shaqattaq
04-11-2016, 01:17 PM
This isn't me noodling anything out of your post but you did imply that we were weeks away from a set 4 release.

I can appreciate that you would have issues developing a timeline the first 2 possibly 3 sets but by now if you don't have an understanding as to where you should be at than hire someone to take notes.

Get a project manager their entire job is to delegate and manage timelines. This all or nothing approach to communication is terrible even if you take a wall of text to try to explain your rational there.

This is a sacrifice we make in order to deliver content to you as soon as possible. We don't have the same incubation time that other video games have where their content is done baking months in advance of even announcement, much less actual implementation. We believe players would rather have the features as soon as they're ready. If there's a point of conflict there, it's how early we announce these features (or discuss them) in order to satisfy player requests compared to when we're actually ready to release them.

bootlace
04-11-2016, 01:22 PM
Can't we have a sticky on the forum like this updated every 24 hours:

Critical Big Bugs Left: 4
Medium Bugs Left: 5
Small Bugs Left: 11

People will have some sense of progress/timeline seeing some numbers go down (or up) - but it won't be anything concrete which you understandably can't give. If you're stuck on a few critical bugs you can make a small forum post as Chris Woods did just prior to Set 3 which went over very well with players. Just an idea, I'm sure it has it's advantages/disadvantages.

Shaqattaq
04-11-2016, 01:32 PM
Can't we have a sticky on the forum like this updated every 24 hours:

Critical Big Bugs Left: 4
Medium Bugs Left: 5
Small Bugs Left: 11

People will have some sense of progress/timeline seeing some numbers go down (or up) - but it won't be anything concrete which you understandably can't give. If you're stuck on a few critical bugs you can make a small forum post as Chris Woods did just prior to Set 3 which went over very well with players. Just an idea, I'm sure it has it's advantages/disadvantages.

I think in theory that's a great idea, and if the issue were that simple it's something we could easily do-- though I do wonder how many players are familiar with game development enough to understand that the number of bugs doesn't always go down as a rule, and how many players would begin to project their own incorrect timelines based on the pace and cadence. All bugs are not created equal.

As far as Primal Dawn itself, what's presented there also isn't really the scope of the problem. There are many variables connected to HEX itself, which in turn affects Primal Dawn. What we've done with this most recent patch is fixing a ton of things both up-front and behind the scenes with the game, for example. Some of these fixes are also quality-of-life improvements or even optimizations from which we pull data in order to determine whether or not the fix worked. And, as is often the case with these things, the answer isn't binary-- good or bad. It's often in-between. Would've been pretty hard to distill all down into a bug count before its release.

magic_gazz
04-11-2016, 01:37 PM
Do you agree that not having a release date now looks really bad?

Early April can really only be counted as any day up to and including the 14 (at a push), I don't see a surprise launch in the next couple of days so it seems like that is not happening.

People are rapidly losing faith in the company to be able to produce content in any sort of decent time frame. Every day and week that goes by is just more frustration for people that there is a great game that could possibly fail (something no one wants).

The problem with more delays on this set is it just makes it feel like there is no chance of a regular release schedule. If it takes 9-10 months between set 3 and 4, is there really any hope of set 5 taking 4-5 months? Hard to believe.

I don't know what the solution is but something drastic needs to happen to keep players happy and get things moving a lot quicker on the back end.

bofedy
04-11-2016, 01:42 PM
I can understand this perspective, but it's a complicated problem. Let's start with the assumption that the community, as a collection of individuals, will theoretically want infinite information. What satisfies one player's desire for information may not satisfy another, whether that's on depth on a specific topic or on the topic itself. So, it's an impossible goal but in general we try to share as much as possible.

There's a general issue with providing information, though. Information creates expectations, which makes sense. If we say something, you should be able to take it at face value. In this case, we don't have accurate information to share. Giving you a date is, in a vacuum, easy, and certainly makes everyone happy-- you now have a specific target, and I don't have to address questions about the launch date anymore. If we had a date to share, certainly we would share it.

But, we don't have a specific launch date to share. And as we give pieces of information as to why we don't have a date to announce, players would draw certain conclusions as to what the new information means when there's no hard, defined information available. We have players who try to noodle out the range of "soon" as an example. And if we hypothetically said "bugs," players would then want to know which exact bugs, which could (again, speaking in hypoptheticals) be pages upon pages of reports and information that changes at on hour-to-hour basis. And then what the expected timeframe was to solve said bugs. And then they'd debate which bugs weren't an issue and which ones were. And what if we have a range, but it's not a solid range and has to take in a bunch of other variables that we have a range on, but are not solid? We're at the same exact end-- no defined answer, and here we have a lot of information without full context that creates confusion at best.

It's natural to want to put together a bunch of disparate pieces of information to come to an answer-- there's a question, and we as humans will try to use and mold information in order to create an answer. It's a puzzle, in that similar to a trading card game itself. But there in lies the problem. There is no answer. Any attempt to read between the lines will likely lead someone to incorrect conclusions and ultimately unrealized expectations.

It's not an ideal answer, but the answer is that we're closer every week and once we're able to give a specific date, we will. And you will know that specific date is as reliable as it can be and that we are confident in it. The old world we lived in was giving dates to satisfy players' wants, then unfortunately having those dates move on us because we gave them too early with too many unknowns still unresolved. That led to players making decisions and plans based on the info we gave, then having to re-arrange their lives when our dates moved. That's simply not respectful of the players' time. We want to not just give information, but to give better information. And that's why we do what we do now.

This to me this is bad all it says is we dont know when stuff will be done and wont be held to a time line. wich is bad as we know sets should be 3-4month at most all of us waiting around for new set 9 + months >_> have no proof other than hex saying we want sets to be quicker just take ower word with no proof that things are geting beter. if this was any other game i dont know how i can justify the wait and a company that cant or wont be held to deadlines.

Tell me this if you cant give dates and keep to them why should we trust that things are going to get beter?

i love the game to bits and you are improving the game its just the timeline is beyond pathetic with no proof its geting beter.

superdax
04-11-2016, 01:43 PM
This is a sacrifice we make in order to deliver content to you as soon as possible. We don't have the same incubation time that other video games have where their content is done baking months in advance of even announcement, much less actual implementation. We believe players would rather have the features as soon as they're ready. If there's a point of conflict there, it's how early we announce these features (or discuss them) in order to satisfy player requests compared to when we're actually ready to release them.

I Honestly think you should bake it in advance and announce it ONLY once it ready.. not ready don't talk about it. It saves so much time and problems. .. If the set is ready the 15th of april, announce it on a friday update with a CONCRETE date + some 2 weeks preview (to create the hype) ..
1- Date stays firm
2- People don't complain
3- You don,t have to explain a million times

Right now, I understand that you guys like to announce things as they are coming up. But please don't. At this stage, its just creating a bad reputation for you guys. I was sure you would not repeat the same mistake but you did. ...

Don't say you have a cake ready to eat when its still not in the oven..... your oven might break.

bootlace
04-11-2016, 01:52 PM
I Honestly think you should bake it in advance and announce it ONLY once it ready.. not ready don't talk about it. It saves so much time and problems. .. If the set is ready the 15th of april, announce it on a friday update with a CONCRETE date + some 2 weeks preview (to create the hype) ..
1- Date stays firm
2- People don't complain
3- You don,t have to explain a million times

Right now, I understand that you guys like to announce things as they are coming up. But please don't. At this stage, its just creating a bad reputation for you guys. I was sure you would not repeat the same mistake but you did. ...

Don't say you have a cake ready to eat when its still not in the oven..... your oven might break.

To be fair, if there isn't some rough timeline or rough projection people will also complain...maybe more. Imagine not having had ANY spoiler or idea how close/far off the set is. Cory's 'early April' statement was at least something and the only thing that might have been better is making that projection even more broad. For example "early-to-mid Q2" would have had the same upside (early April) but would have given until Mid may until people really started flipping out.

phoix
04-11-2016, 01:55 PM
Do you agree that not having a release date now looks really bad?

Early April can really only be counted as any day up to and including the 14 (at a push), I don't see a surprise launch in the next couple of days so it seems like that is not happening.

People are rapidly losing faith in the company to be able to produce content in any sort of decent time frame. Every day and week that goes by is just more frustration for people that there is a great game that could possibly fail (something no one wants).

The problem with more delays on this set is it just makes it feel like there is no chance of a regular release schedule. If it takes 9-10 months between set 3 and 4, is there really any hope of set 5 taking 4-5 months? Hard to believe.

I don't know what the solution is but something drastic needs to happen to keep players happy and get things moving a lot quicker on the back end.

Unless I'm misremembering I think they already confirmed that they don't expect to hit that timeline with the next two sets.

superdax
04-11-2016, 01:56 PM
To be fair, if there isn't some rough timeline or rough projection people will also complain...maybe more. Imagine not having had ANY spoiler or idea how close/far off the set is. Cory's 'early April' statement was at least something and the only thing that might have been better is making that projection even more broad. For example "early-to-mid Q2" would have had the same upside (early April) but would have given until Mid may until people really started flipping out.

Honestly, Cory said beginning of april and there was already people complaining about the release date at the last week of march. People just complain no matter what BUT you don't create a bad reputation.

They will have to eventually have to make sets faster then they release them to get a heads up and to come up with some scheduling. At least 1 set ahead. Right now its just bad for everyone

Shaqattaq
04-11-2016, 01:58 PM
This to me this is bad all it says is we dont know when stuff will be done and wont be held to a time line. wich is bad as we know sets should be 3-4month at most all of us waiting around for new set 9 + months >_> have no proof other than hex saying we want sets to be quicker just take ower word with no proof that things are geting beter. if this was any other game i dont know how i can justify the wait and a company that cant or wont be held to deadlines.

Tell me this if you cant give dates and keep to them why should we trust that things are going to get beter?

i love the game to bits and you are improving the game its just the timeline is beyond pathetic with no proof its geting beter.

I can't give you a date today. That doesn't mean I can never give you a date. It just means today, at this moment, it wouldn't be responsible to give you a date. What you're asking for is not just to announce a release date, but to 100% guarantee that we hit that date. Of course we have a general idea of when it's going to release. But, again, it's far more respectful of players and their time to give them a date when we're confident in it and then have players plan around that date. We understand that players time is valuable and they may arrange their schedule to experience Primal Dawn as soon as it releases. That's why we are only going to give a date when we're confident in it.

It is critical to stop this trap that we as a game company set for ourselves. We often announce something in order to satisfy some request for information, and we do so before we're confident in that feature's release date. Now we've set expectations for the playerbase that aren't completely reliable, so when we don't hit that date suddenly we look unreliable when we should've just never announced anything until we were ready. As for why we instead don't give pieces of information before we're ready with caveats and qualifiers and other conditions, you can look to my post on page 3.

Things are definitely getting better. We were able to deliver Chapter 1 to critical acclaim and great player response. We're preparing to launch a new set. HEX is growing, we just pulled off a $100K tournament series, and we continue to improve so much of the player experience. This one axis of measurement is important, but it does not define the game as a whole.

As for the set cadence, as I said before I'd rather show you that we've become better at something and then discuss the success than promise you. You can take my word that at this time, our top focus is hitting our internal desired dates for content releases such as the PVP set after Primal Dawn. I don't want to speak beyond that because, again, I'd rather prove it to you and gain credibility through action than actually throw more words at it.

Shaqattaq
04-11-2016, 02:00 PM
I Honestly think you should bake it in advance and announce it ONLY once it ready.. not ready don't talk about it. It saves so much time and problems. .. If the set is ready the 15th of april, announce it on a friday update with a CONCRETE date + some 2 weeks preview (to create the hype) ..
1- Date stays firm
2- People don't complain
3- You don,t have to explain a million times

Right now, I understand that you guys like to announce things as they are coming up. But please don't. At this stage, its just creating a bad reputation for you guys. I was sure you would not repeat the same mistake but you did. ...

Don't say you have a cake ready to eat when its still not in the oven..... your oven might break.

I fundamentally agree with this, but as a Kickstarter project that wants to be as open as possible, we tend to have a wider range of what we discuss and when. Some players, many in this thread, would disagree with this approach and say we're not being communicative. This approach would also lend itself to additional time between feature completion and launch that we experience now.

Shaqattaq
04-11-2016, 02:04 PM
To be fair, if there isn't some rough timeline or rough projection people will also complain...maybe more. Imagine not having had ANY spoiler or idea how close/far off the set is. Cory's 'early April' statement was at least something and the only thing that might have been better is making that projection even more broad. For example "early-to-mid Q2" would have had the same upside (early April) but would have given until Mid may until people really started flipping out.

Yes, it was something that while we believed at the time we'd hit that date, clearly it's created an expectation that we're going to miss (assuming one believes early April is 1st through the 15th). In this, at that time we satisfied the player's desire for information and we gave the best information we could. It wasn't wrong to announce this at the time, as that's part of being open and communicative. But, at the same time, this is part of the trap we as the HEX devs set for ourselves and where some of the player frustration is coming from.

knightofeffect
04-11-2016, 02:07 PM
I agree that communication with any player base is very complex and difficult to manage. Unfortunately Hex's communications has been a shambles from the very beginning.

I have learned how to interpret Cory's timelines pretty accurately after years of training (guide can be found in a previous topic), but for the general public, they probably do more harm than good. The bigger problem is, those overly-rosy guesstimates are all the community really gets.

Hex simply needs a individual that is charismatic, aggressive, and well versed in communication strategy and marketing both internally and externally to Hex (I.E. Pulling useful information out of designers and engineers instead of just relaying whatever they overhear). I have really liked our community managers to date, but Hex has largely been living on good faith regarding their project communications while banking on the fact that they'll have it all figured out when it really matters...

Well launching on steam and dropping all pre-launch indications is a pretty good demarcation of "it really mattering", yet Hex doesn't seem any closer to having a grasp of how to handle development of release information. We repeatedly hear reasons why community brow-beating teaches HXE to say even less as the reasoning why there is so little information, but that is in no way acceptable.

There is an appropriate way to keep your player base engaged in the development process, especially when you are officially out of the sausage factory, but it takes a professional to do it.

WolfCrypt
04-11-2016, 02:12 PM
Frankly Hex may be slow but what can you do? They've told us numerous times that they have a very small group. A small group of dedicated designers building the most innovative and complex online card game is going to take time.. It's not like Hex/Crypt is Square Enix where they talk about Kingdom Hearts and then focus every resource they have to make FF15 and five remakes of older games and never bring up Kingdom Hearts 3.

Now you can call me a kissass suck up whatever but I been around since Hex 'Ninja Open Beta'ed so I know a few thing about how Hex works and I admit I left for like two months maybe and then came back to read a ton of spoilers regarding Primal Dawn. In fact Hex loved my undying faith in them for Elf Warlocks and Warlock class in general they let me spoil Thorntwister. So why I'm not very versed in many aspects of Hex I do agree that they should keep things to themselves in regard of release dates so they can release them 'on time' instead of saying "Primal Dawn is coming April 21st!!" and then everyone taking a week off to buy and test every card in the set and it turns out it's not happening..

So isn't it a better use of their time to design and text Primal amongst themselves then talking about release dates? Everyone seems to complain harshly then praise Hex whenever x comes out so I think we should just talk about cards spoiled stead of biting Hex head off.

Renquist
04-11-2016, 02:18 PM
Here's an idea:

Features and content can and should be two different silos. Content should never be held back by feature development


You have PVE and PVP content in game and it's functioning. As much as I want guilds in I understand that they arn't anywhere close to be in game. At this point who cares about a timeline it's been almost 10 months since set 3 was released. I don't care about quality of life improvements if the game I'm playing since alpha is boring me to tears. I have a free draft that I don't even want to use.

If you arn't doing that look to where you can optimize your content release schedule. If this is your optimized content release schedule then well Hex is in real trouble.

As much as I would love features stop neglecting your current fan-base to create features for players who arn't even in game yet. That my friend is irresponsible.

Shaqattaq
04-11-2016, 02:22 PM
I agree that communication with any player base is very complex and difficult to manage. Unfortunately Hex's communications has been a shambles from the very beginning.

I have learned how to interpret Cory's timelines pretty accurately after years of training (guide can be found in a previous topic), but for the general public, they probably do more harm than good. The bigger problem is, those overly-rosy guesstimates are all the community really gets.

Hex simply needs a individual that is charismatic, aggressive, and well versed in communication strategy and marketing both internally and externally to Hex (I.E. Pulling useful information out of designers and engineers instead of just relaying whatever they overhear). I have really liked our community managers to date, but Hex has largely been living on good faith regarding their project communications while banking on the fact that they'll have it all figured out when it really matters...

Well launching on steam and dropping all pre-launch indications is a pretty good demarcation of "it really mattering", yet Hex doesn't seem any closer to having a grasp of how to handle development of release information. We repeatedly hear reasons why community brow-beating teaches HXE to say even less as the reasoning why there is so little information, but that is in no way acceptable.

There is an appropriate way to keep your player base engaged in the development process, especially when you are officially out of the sausage factory, but it takes a professional to do it.

I think "shambles" is a pretty big exaggeration, but sure-- it's less than ideal. I think that comes with being a small team and also always trying to be open whenever possible with our community.

As for "not having any idea" and "so little information," to the former we definitely have plenty of knowledge on how to do this. It's just that there are many moving parts and such varied ideas of what is "right" from the community that ultimately some players are going to be disappointed. For the latter, the challenge from my point of view is not the quantity, but the timing. If anything, it's the information itself that gets us in these spots, so it's arguable that there's too much information.

Poetic
04-11-2016, 02:38 PM
I agree with too much information, or just info that gets you guys into trouble. Don't remember where it originated or who said it, but we were led to believe set 4 has been ready for months and that art was holding it up. When you throw in the early April blurb and it being playable at the invitational, I'm sure most people were expecting it to drop really soon.

Your posts today make it feel weeks out which is sad, but it is what it is.

I'll play other games to pass time and be ready for it whenever we do get it in our hands.

Shaqattaq
04-11-2016, 02:43 PM
Your posts today make it feel weeks out which is sad, but it is what it is.

This is kinda the entire point of the discussion. There's a natural drive to draw conclusions and frame expectations with limited information, but ultimately it's imperfect and unreliable. I recommend waiting for an official release date.

Biz
04-11-2016, 02:49 PM
they're aiming to get a ton of new players from the Steam launch.

set 3 might be 9 months old for us, but it's not for them.

business priorities are rarely discussed openly, but perhaps you guys can make a guess as to what's going on before pulling out the pitchforks

GobBluth
04-11-2016, 02:52 PM
Honestly, the wait and see approach is boring.

fido_one
04-11-2016, 03:00 PM
This is kinda the entire point of the discussion. There's a natural drive to draw conclusions and frame expectations with limited information, but ultimately it's imperfect and unreliable. I recommend waiting for an official release date.

It's a slippery slope, I get that. But I think if you were to poll the Hex community everyone who sticks by the game will say that the biggest issue has been less the lack of progress and more communication on the lack of progress.

I don't have a problem with the implication that communication will never be perfect, or even 'good' in the eyes of a crazy fanboy community. We'll always want more. What I don't see here, and what I worry about, is in the three years other than throw away comments from HexEnt that things can improve via communication, we have seen only one solution, and that is community managers.

I think that is WAAAY too much pressure to put on CMs. Legitimate or not, most people would agree that if one thing will kill this game, if one thing prevents people of being ardent heralds of Hex to new players, it's HexEnt's tradition of being not-so-great-kind-of-bad on communicating. While not implicitly stated, some of your comments hint at withdrawing from communication in general, and I don't think that is the right answer.

Can HexEnt talk about what they are doing to improve their communication in the long run beyond getting another CM? Is the CMs responsibilities going to change based upon what worked in the role and not? Now that the KS is three years past, is HexEnt trying to move to a model where they only state stuff after development? etc. etc.

The point is there is a considerable issue with communication here, there always has been. There are other game companies (that started on KS) that have found a balance, it may help to talk about what you are trying to emulate from them regarding evolution of communicating news and releases with the community. I was just saying how much of a douchebag I feel like when I complain about communication, but it has been and will be the elephant in the room until something changes, and I don't believe that it has to be the number one complaint about Hex from invested players, I believe it could be the second or third item on the 'bitching and moaning' list.

chromus
04-11-2016, 03:14 PM
Appreciate you taking the time to try and explain what seems to be HXE's communication strategy Shaqattaq. But Renquist sums it up fairly well above with "This all or nothing approach to communication is terrible...".

Communication became the most important thing to manage the moment it was apparent that HXE would need years before delivering on its KS promises. It is also unfortunately the area where it has until now fallen the shortest.

Communication isn't just about having all the answers at all times. It isn't just about giving people tangible dates backed up by technical information or data. It isn't only about the bottom line: when will X release, what will Y patch constitute, etc. This is software development. Of course there will be unforeseen bugs, delays, more bugs, more unforeseen complications, etc. When you finally have firm dates cannot be the only time you open the communication channel with your community, or otherwise stay quiet with "coming soon" blanket statements. You have to keep in mind that people will form expectations regardless of whether you give out any information or not (which you seem so hesitant to do). You have the power to manage that expectation with the information you choose to provide, not let it run wild in all directions by staying quiet.

Here are some ways I think Hex can better communicate with its playerbase:

- Hexers are always excited about your Friday Updates. They hope for tangible information but can be appeased by any new piece of development. You must not miss this opportunity to excite your playerbase and leave them with only disappointment. One spoiler card, one champion, one gem-change, one statement from a designer/developer about an upcoming feature - literally anything. No one really cares that these won’t be final or may even be changed in their entirety. Even a glimpse of the cool stuff that’s being worked on can go a long way towards reassuring the masses that progress is being made and keeping them hooked. This is especially true near content releases, such as this very update.

- Even if it's minor progress, share some of the milestones you have achieved. What are some of the tough bugs and how have you tackled them? When you open a window to the world of game designers/developers, people really appreciate it and root for you. Chris Wood's post about the memory-leak bug pre-Set 3 release was golden. Make this type of communication the norm, not the exception. That's how important communication is. At critical times, 1-2 hours from an employee's time that would otherwise be spent on the game is absolutely worth it.

- Some of the other developers make small vine / youtube videos asking their eomplyees casual questions that serve to not only create hype but also makes the staff more likable and adds a human element to the company overall.

- When you take the chance to include your playerbase's feedback in some of your decisions (such as Chark's post and follow-up about Steam release), it creates a positive vibe and spurs the community to feel like they are a part of your team. This approach results in player-driven initiatives and builds more tolerance to endure the unexpected.


These are just some of the things that came to mind. Hopefully, the new community manager will look to incorporate these and continue HXE's improvement in this area.

Metronomy
04-11-2016, 03:18 PM
Here's an idea:

Features and content can and should be two different silos. Content should never be held back by feature development

..


Imo best statement so far. It is about priorities. A steady release of new sets is about the most important thing in any tcg. Anything else should be secondary. I realy hope you reassemble around this guideline for the future. Another question: Is Set 5 basically done ? I am just curious since it is 4 months (or was it even more?) since Cory said that set 4 was basically done. I dont wanna sound too cynical but it is not me who made that statement. I just dont see how you could possibly release Set 5 in like 5 months. Especialy when you want to release AZ2 in between. What I would suggest for example that you delay any major features that were planed for AZ2. We can wait one more AZ for raids or guilds if that means that Set 5 comes 3 or 4 months earlier.

Timlagor
04-11-2016, 03:23 PM
Yes, it was something that while we believed at the time we'd hit that date, clearly it's created an expectation that we're going to miss (assuming one believes early April is 1st through the 15th). In this, at that time we satisfied the player's desire for information and we gave the best information we could. It wasn't wrong to announce this at the time, as that's part of being open and communicative. But, at the same time, this is part of the trap we as the HEX devs set for ourselves and where some of the player frustration is coming from.

That's fine.
I would have liked a communication when it became clear to you that it wouldn't be out in Early April.
I would still like an idea of when not to expect it before. At present people are hoping for Set 4 every day ..and getting disappointed every day that it doesn't appear. Saying "definitely not before the 20th" would at least let us calm down a bit -certainly there would be some people who would expect it on the 20th then but most of us can understand that that's not what you would be saying.

Attempting to list number of bugs publicly does seem rather futile not least I'm sure because one apparently minor bug could spawn a whole host of major issues.

What happened to Feast of Abundance? I assumed it wasn't happening when Easter passed unremarked but I have since heard that it is coming.. will it be post-Dawn or can we hope it'll be along to tide us over? (I suspect it was planned on the premise of an earlier Dan and got entangled in the delays)

fido_one
04-11-2016, 03:26 PM
- Even if it's minor progress, share some of the milestones you have achieved. What are some of the tough bugs and how have you tackled them? When you open a window to the world of game designers/developers, people really appreciate it and root for you. Chris Wood's post about the memory-leak bug pre-Set 3 release was golden. Make this type of communication the norm, not the exception. That's how important communication is. At critical times, 1-2 hours from an employee's time that would otherwise be spent on the game is absolutely worth it.


I think talking about bugs you squashed is an 'easy win' for something to throw into a Friday update. We don't have to know about them until after you squashed them, but anytime HexEnt has talked about a bug they tackled it always generates some positive buzz. All of Chromus' ideas are good, but this is the type of thing that wouldn't take a lot of time away from the team to communicate as they probably have had their heads deep into an issue or two and may not mind talking about how they came up with a solution.

Shaqattaq
04-11-2016, 03:38 PM
Appreciate you taking the time to try and explain what seems to be HXE's communication strategy Shaqattaq. But Renquist sums it up fairly well above with "This all or nothing approach to communication is terrible...".

Communication became the most important thing to manage the moment it was apparent that HXE would need years before delivering on its KS promises. It is also unfortunately the area where it has until now fallen the shortest.

Communication isn't just about having all the answers at all times. It isn't just about giving people tangible dates backed up by technical information or data. It isn't only about the bottom line: when will X release, what will Y patch constitute, etc. This is software development. Of course there will be unforeseen bugs, delays, more bugs, more unforeseen complications, etc. When you finally have firm dates cannot be the only time you open the communication channel with your community, or otherwise stay quiet with "coming soon" blanket statements. You have to keep in mind that people will form expectations regardless of whether you give out any information or not (which you seem so hesitant to do). You have the power to manage that expectation with the information you choose to provide, not let it run wild in all directions by staying quiet.

Here are some ways I think Hex can better communicate with its playerbase:

- Hexers are always excited about your Friday Updates. They hope for tangible information but can be appeased by any new piece of development. You must not miss this opportunity to excite your playerbase and leave them with only disappointment. One spoiler card, one champion, one gem-change, one statement from a designer/developer about an upcoming feature - literally anything. No one really cares that these won’t be final or may even be changed in their entirety. Even a glimpse of the cool stuff that’s being worked on can go a long way towards reassuring the masses that progress is being made and keeping them hooked. This is especially true near content releases, such as this very update.

- Even if it's minor progress, share some of the milestones you have achieved. What are some of the tough bugs and how have you tackled them? When you open a window to the world of game designers/developers, people really appreciate it and root for you. Chris Wood's post about the memory-leak bug pre-Set 3 release was golden. Make this type of communication the norm, not the exception. That's how important communication is. At critical times, 1-2 hours from an employee's time that would otherwise be spent on the game is absolutely worth it.

- Some of the other developers make small vine / youtube videos asking their eomplyees casual questions that serve to not only create hype but also makes the staff more likable and adds a human element to the company overall.

- When you take the chance to include your playerbase's feedback in some of your decisions (such as Chark's post and follow-up about Steam release), it creates a positive vibe and spurs the community to feel like they are a part of your team. This approach results in player-driven initiatives and builds more tolerance to endure the unexpected.


These are just some of the things that came to mind. Hopefully, the new community manager will look to incorporate these and continue HXE's improvement in this area.

A "good" Friday Update takes about 6 hours of time, maybe closer to 8 hours. That's every single week across 2-3 contributors. If it seems less, it's because we hopefully do a good job on those and they appear effortless. It needs a concept > assign work > asset creation > edit work > finalize work > ensure that this fits into the schedule > stage on website > publish. That that presumes we have something to actually show and that it's the right time to show it.

I've mentioned before-- the Friday update cannot make features launch faster, but they can make things take longer.

fido_one
04-11-2016, 03:43 PM
That's fine.
I would have liked a communication when it became clear to you that it wouldn't be out in Early April.
I would still like an idea of when not to expect it before. At present people are hoping for Set 4 every day ..and getting disappointed every day that it doesn't appear. Saying "definitely not before the 20th" would at least let us calm down a bit -certainly there would be some people who would expect it on the 20th then but most of us can understand that that's not what you would be saying.

Attempting to list number of bugs publicly does seem rather futile not least I'm sure because one apparently minor bug could spawn a whole host of major issues.

What happened to Feast of Abundance? I assumed it wasn't happening when Easter passed unremarked but I have since heard that it is coming.. will it be post-Dawn or can we hope it'll be along to tide us over? (I suspect it was planned on the premise of an earlier Dan and got entangled in the delays)

This kinds of goes with my primary point which is 'saying there is no news can be news enough.' I can't tell you how many times I felt like an idiot with this game because I cleared up something in my schedule for a release or a date only to have that date approach [and sometimes pass] with zero notification of what was going on. The entirety of my saltiness over such matters could have been alleviated with a 'hey, that date? We're no longer confident we can make that date anymore, more news to come.' <- you did this once and it was great. Only once though. I can't remember what it was, maybe set 3? I think some message of 'we're re-evaluating the release of set 4, so it may not be the start of April due to other things which we are excited to tell you about' could have come a week ago. Then when the Steam news hit, it would seem less out of the blue, and could be celebrated a little bit more rather than being viewed with so much suspicion (which it still would be, just less so).

fido_one
04-11-2016, 03:46 PM
A "good" Friday Update takes about 6 hours of time, maybe closer to 8 hours. That's every single week across 2-3 contributors. If it seems less, it's because we hopefully do a good job on those and they appear effortless. It needs a concept > assign work > asset creation > edit work > finalize work > ensure that this fits into the schedule > stage on website > publish. That that presumes we have something to actually show and that it's the right time to show it.

I've mentioned before-- the Friday update cannot make features launch faster, but they can make things take longer.

But they can also can more effectively address the communication problem with the same time investment. It's obvious we have zero idea how much work goes into those updates, but what is in them could be tweaked. Hypothetical questions: What does HexEnt think of its efficacy with the Friday updates? Is it getting its 8 hours worth from 2 to 3 employees?

magic_gazz
04-11-2016, 03:49 PM
That's fine.
I would have liked a communication when it became clear to you that it wouldn't be out in Early April.
I would still like an idea of when not to expect it before. At present people are hoping for Set 4 every day ..and getting disappointed every day that it doesn't appear. Saying "definitely not before the 20th" would at least let us calm down a bit -certainly there would be some people who would expect it on the 20th then but most of us can understand that that's not what you would be saying.

Attempting to list number of bugs publicly does seem rather futile not least I'm sure because one apparently minor bug could spawn a whole host of major issues.

What happened to Feast of Abundance? I assumed it wasn't happening when Easter passed unremarked but I have since heard that it is coming.. will it be post-Dawn or can we hope it'll be along to tide us over? (I suspect it was planned on the premise of an earlier Dan and got entangled in the delays)

This is a good point.

Early April
Early April
Soon
Early April almost over


There was a good point somewhere in between to let people know that early april was not happening. Missing dates is fine, but not letting people know until that date is almost upon them makes it a lot harder to deal with.

fido_one
04-11-2016, 04:16 PM
A "good" Friday Update takes about 6 hours of time, maybe closer to 8 hours. That's every single week across 2-3 contributors. If it seems less, it's because we hopefully do a good job on those and they appear effortless. It needs a concept > assign work > asset creation > edit work > finalize work > ensure that this fits into the schedule > stage on website > publish. That that presumes we have something to actually show and that it's the right time to show it.

I've mentioned before-- the Friday update cannot make features launch faster, but they can make things take longer.

Also on this, I don't know if the community would be adverse to having updates every other Friday. Personally, I wouldn't mind; these days it feels like some of the Friday updates are stretching it. There are SOOO many great articles pouring in from community members and HexEnt people that the Friday updates aren't nearly as important as they once were unless they contain specific information.

knightofeffect
04-11-2016, 04:21 PM
I think "shambles" is a pretty big exaggeration, but sure-- it's less than ideal. I think that comes with being a small team and also always trying to be open whenever possible with our community.

As for "not having any idea" and "so little information," to the former we definitely have plenty of knowledge on how to do this. It's just that there are many moving parts and such varied ideas of what is "right" from the community that ultimately some players are going to be disappointed. For the latter, the challenge from my point of view is not the quantity, but the timing. If anything, it's the information itself that gets us in these spots, so it's arguable that there's too much information.

I agree that there was definitely some hyperbole in my previous post, hyperbole that I usually try to eliminate from my posts, but I'm never truly at my A game while on my phone at work. Let me give it a better attempt....

The "shambles from the very beginning" I was referring to is the way-beat-to-death issue with communication of expectation around the kickstarter, things that we are well past these days, but still occasionally get a little tug when people get a glimpse of how far out items like fully functional guilds, crafting, doublebacks, etc. really are. That whole situation was certainly a shambles, but again, I don't want to rehash all that bridgewater.

However, since that time, Hex has consistently over-promised and under-delivered. I realize a lot of that has to do with being lead by a fearlessly optimistic visionary and entirely to do with the uncertainties of software development. But aside from all that, there has never been an entity at CZE that has been able to (or really tried in the sense I'm thinking) to engage the community in development and its hurdles. Instead we have gotten differing levels of information and engagement at seemingly random times.

As for the "not having any idea". The single biggest concrete information we had about a Primal Dawn release date was given out by Cory in his clearly optimistic voice during his intro to the 100k Invitational. There was no official communication regarded the targeted window and people sure weren't going to give an credence to Cory's stressed "hope" and "we think", the expectation had been set. Set 4 being playable at the event only went to further set and harden those expectations. At the same time, Hex has released official communication on how critical it is to reliably release new set content on-time and how they promise to do it moving forward. Then we are given an immense and awesome deluge of spoilers and content related to the new set which spikes anticipation and clearly cements expectations of the set release in the very near future.... Then nothing really, the expected launch window comes and goes, the hype train completely stalls out on its tracks, spoilers become much less frequent, new set information in general becomes much less sparse; our only information is, "you know, bugs and stuff, this takes time."

Its not hard to see how Hex put itself into a corner, got everyone excited about the corner by jumping up and down and showing pretty pictures, told everyone how important it is to be in said corner, then hoped if they were just quiet enough they could slip out of the corner. I know development is difficult and things are simply done when they are done, but the failure in communication described above is avoidable and instead has been consistently repeated by CZE. This is by no means we have seen a hyped release cycle fizzle with little communication.

Then HXE comes with this Steam release. Which, while a temporary tactical panacea for the set 4 groaning, its out-of-the-blue nature opens up a whole myriad of intertwined questions:
How long has HXE been planning this?

Is this a reaction to a low playerbase?


Is this a reaction to poor crossover from the f2p campaign to paying players?


Does HXE have financial problems?
Did this affect the set 4 release issues?

If so, how and by how much?


Assuming HXE has been planning this Steam launch for a while, how did they not foresee this interaction while planning the release?

So now you have a potentially game-changing launch on THE major gaming distribution platform coinciding with the slipping release date of the first PvP content release in 9+ months without an official date for either or explanations/reasons for any of it.

...Oh yea, then there is the whole thing with Spectral Oak being nearly introduced to our accounts, also completely out-of-the-blue while the community awaits an article promised months ago (by Colin due to the shitstorm swirling around the "we will not talk about anything in this article" disclaimer) discussing the power-level changes that were made. I mean, I'm not trying to rehash every communication failure HXE has made, but simply showing fairly large power-changes to the most polarizing card the game will likely ever have with no coinciding explanation is pretty ludicrous.


As for the "so little information", I would agree with you that just saying "we sure are hoping for early April" then hyping like hell and following up with very little information or explanation of missed launch window and poorly timed hype-content probably is a net-sum of "too much information". But the issue isn't that you gave too much information, its that there wasn't a clearly thought-out and executed strategy to any of it. And that is even before you consider the Steam and Spectral Oak stuff. A great communications manager would have had HXE at least meeting expectations once by now and giving the community a reason to hope that when the chips are down, HXE will deliver.

The thing is, I know HXE is getting better, I know the days of content delivery with a solid backend are just around the corner, I know HXE will deliver set 4 soon and I know it will be amazing.

I also know what releasing on Steam means and how forgiving the internet community is at large. As I said in my last post, HXE has been living off the faith and generally good nature of a heavily vested and adoring fanbase when it comes to these communication issues. Everyone here wants HXE to succeed mightily, and we all are emotionally having to gear-up a little for this impending steam launch to promote and defend our baby. Please, please get a great communication and marketing director that can support our fandom instead of uncertainty stacked on uncertainty and missed expectations.

knightofeffect
04-11-2016, 04:27 PM
A "good" Friday Update takes about 6 hours of time, maybe closer to 8 hours. That's every single week across 2-3 contributors. If it seems less, it's because we hopefully do a good job on those and they appear effortless. It needs a concept > assign work > asset creation > edit work > finalize work > ensure that this fits into the schedule > stage on website > publish. That that presumes we have something to actually show and that it's the right time to show it.

I've mentioned before-- the Friday update cannot make features launch faster, but they can make things take longer.

I want to chime in that I think the Friday articles are great and don't require any more content. I think the whole communication timeline and strategy needs significant work. But also, for us, your soldiers, your forum goers, your redditors, they need more open and upfront communication than what the Friday updates provide but not nearly the time investment in formality.

Yoss
04-11-2016, 04:48 PM
Here's a crazy idea: cancel the weekly update and only give one update for each of your internal development cycles. Basically just post high level patch notes for your internal builds.

fido_one
04-11-2016, 04:54 PM
Here's a crazy idea: cancel the weekly update and only give one update for each of your internal development cycles. Basically just post high level patch notes for your internal builds.

I'm just going to say it. Getting a 'HEX KS UPDATE' a few minutes ago to read only about the Ghostbusters II Board Game Kickstarter and zero about Hex in a time where we are still under the impression that set 4 is 'early April' was not thought out well. At all.

magic_gazz
04-11-2016, 04:55 PM
I am surprised people like the Friday updates and surprised they apparently take so long. There is usually close to 0 content in them that hasn't previously been published. They are usually just a rehash of things that have been said/shown and some stuff about tournaments.

Having said that there have been some AMAZING ones like the Chris Woods one and the recent one by Lorgoyle about the female vennen. When you can get someone who doesn't care about lore excited you are doing it right.

Harwinne
04-11-2016, 05:27 PM
This is something just about every game developer struggles with. This is not unique to Hex Entertainment. It's not easy work. New bugs are often spawned while squashing old bugs. It's often a losing battle and they're fighting until it's good to release. Companies that prioritize a fixed date over the quality of their product produce shit products. Just look at how many unplayable titles have come out in recent years.

The devs have no interest in holding anything back once it's ready. The problem is, this is not something anybody can accurately forecast ahead of time unlike many careers. This is not something someone can work 22 hour days to guarantee quality work during a last minute crunch time because no one can possibly know how many man-hours a project like this will ultimately take.

Think about it. The devs can't win until everyone realizes what is really involved. They aren't taking longer for the sake of taking longer. They are taking their time in order to deliver their best product. Devs aren't withholding information for the purpose of trolling the player base. If devs say that bug fixing is what is holding up the product... let's say they say that five days straight. People WILL come out and accuse the devs of being incompetent while not realizing what is really at play.

magic_gazz
04-11-2016, 06:05 PM
This is something just about every game developer struggles with. This is not unique to Hex Entertainment. It's not easy work. New bugs are often spawned while squashing old bugs. It's often a losing battle and they're fighting until it's good to release. Companies that prioritize a fixed date over the quality of their product produce shit products. Just look at how many unplayable titles have come out in recent years.

The devs have no interest in holding anything back once it's ready. The problem is, this is not something anybody can accurately forecast ahead of time unlike many careers. This is not something someone can work 22 hour days to guarantee quality work during a last minute crunch time because no one can possibly know how many man-hours a project like this will ultimately take.

Think about it. The devs can't win until everyone realizes what is really involved. They aren't taking longer for the sake of taking longer. They are taking their time in order to deliver their best product. Devs aren't withholding information for the purpose of trolling the player base. If devs say that bug fixing is what is holding up the product... let's say they say that five days straight. People WILL come out and accuse the devs of being incompetent while not realizing what is really at play.

Most people here have some intelligence (I would like to think) and if you say something people will tend to believe it. If you say stuff that doesn't add up though that's when people start to ask questions.

Months ago we were told set 4 was done and they were just finalising art. Then there was a working demo at the 100k. Then we are told early april. All these things are positive and follow a sensible progression.

When we are now told "soon" and "we don't have a date" you have to wonder what went wrong.

I think the truth of it really is they have been focusing on other stuff and not putting the full force behind getting set 4 out the door. They don't really want to come out and say this as it is a bit of a slap in the face to the people who have been here from the beginning.

fido_one
04-11-2016, 06:16 PM
Most people here have some intelligence (I would like to think) and if you say something people will tend to believe it. If you say stuff that doesn't add up though that's when people start to ask questions.

Months ago we were told set 4 was done and they were just finalising art. Then there was a working demo at the 100k. Then we are told early april. All these things are positive and follow a sensible progression.

When we are now told "soon" and "we don't have a date" you have to wonder what went wrong.

I think the truth of it really is they have been focusing on other stuff and not putting the full force behind getting set 4 out the door. They don't really want to come out and say this as it is a bit of a slap in the face to the people who have been here from the beginning.

Yeah, I agree with this, to add to it, this sort of snafu has been a very dependable and frustrating pattern with Hex and people are a bit worried about that pattern extending to the Steam release.

Shaqattaq
04-11-2016, 06:22 PM
This kinds of goes with my primary point which is 'saying there is no news can be news enough.' I can't tell you how many times I felt like an idiot with this game because I cleared up something in my schedule for a release or a date only to have that date approach [and sometimes pass] with zero notification of what was going on. The entirety of my saltiness over such matters could have been alleviated with a 'hey, that date? We're no longer confident we can make that date anymore, more news to come.' <- you did this once and it was great. Only once though. I can't remember what it was, maybe set 3? I think some message of 'we're re-evaluating the release of set 4, so it may not be the start of April due to other things which we are excited to tell you about' could have come a week ago. Then when the Steam news hit, it would seem less out of the blue, and could be celebrated a little bit more rather than being viewed with so much suspicion (which it still would be, just less so).

Sure, I get that missing dates can be frustrating. Steam was a challenge behind the scenes. It's not exactly a feature, and as some have seen here there were parts of the HEX community that responded to it negatively. We want people to be excited that HEX is on Steam, but having people on Steam does cost us. Plus, this is all happening while some people were out of the office and we have a position to fill.

Speaking of-- if you've worked in developer to publisher communications, digital marketing, social media strategy development, and community engagement, we have a job for you! https://www.hextcg.com/careers/job-opening-marketing-and-community-manager/

fido_one
04-11-2016, 06:26 PM
Speaking of-- if you've worked in developer to publisher communications, digital marketing, social media strategy development, and community engagement, we have a job for you! https://www.hextcg.com/careers/job-opening-marketing-and-community-manager/

Ah, congrats on the posting! I love you guys too much to screw up that position for you and/or have you endure me in person. I'm actually crap at the marketing part myself, so much so the first thing I have done in my positions is find someone on point that is better than I to manage marketing and/or B2C stuff, which is generally anyone else in the room.

Does that make me hypocritical in my comments and advice? Hell yes. That's why I was in upper level management all those years. ;)

fido_one
04-11-2016, 06:33 PM
Sure, I get that missing dates can be frustrating. Steam was a challenge behind the scenes. It's not exactly a feature, and as some have seen here there were parts of the HEX community that responded to it negatively. We want people to be excited that HEX is on Steam, but having people on Steam does cost us. Plus, this is all happening while some people were out of the office and we have a position to fill.

Speaking of-- if you've worked in developer to publisher communications, digital marketing, social media strategy development, and community engagement, we have a job for you! https://www.hextcg.com/careers/job-opening-marketing-and-community-manager/

I'm assuming that job is in house, correct? If remote, I'll pass it on to a few people I know...

frychikn
04-11-2016, 07:18 PM
Unless I'm misremembering I think they already confirmed that they don't expect to hit that timeline with the next two sets.

then they honestly might as well kiss this game goodbye tbh.

knightofeffect
04-11-2016, 08:26 PM
Sure, I get that missing dates can be frustrating. Steam was a challenge behind the scenes. It's not exactly a feature, and as some have seen here there were parts of the HEX community that responded to it negatively. We want people to be excited that HEX is on Steam, but having people on Steam does cost us. Plus, this is all happening while some people were out of the office and we have a position to fill.

Speaking of-- if you've worked in developer to publisher communications, digital marketing, social media strategy development, and community engagement, we have a job for you! https://www.hextcg.com/careers/job-opening-marketing-and-community-manager/

Yea, its pretty rough to have this opening right now. I really do feel for you guys. There seems to be a strong push in a direction come hell or high water. Just gotta get the evangelical pants on.

Ducklett
04-11-2016, 09:13 PM
Honestly, I don't know who planned this steam release window, but knowing what is happening with your direct competition, I feel like this was a drastic oversight. You have a situation where one of your competitors for viewership just released a revisiting of arguably their most popular set and it is coming soon to their digital platform. On the other hand, you have their direct digital-space competitor about to release their next big set, including huge sweeping format changes, in two weeks, as well as their next big franchise in four.

I can understand the bugs, delays, and uh-oh what happened here moments popping up and delaying something. I know that the back-end of PvE, changing base rule-sets, and art issues have caused a larger majority of the delays. I can say that I get it. What I don't understand, however, is how much longer this can go when your competition is putting out sets at a clip of 3 months or less with 20+ years more cards to have to bug test for and sniff out. I am not saying we should be at a point that those guys are, but it sure looks bad to hear that it is taking us 3x the time of the other guy's longest set release window.

This isn't a "I quit" post or a "I am not playing this game until X" post, because realistically, I think this game is better at digital-space card gaming than the other options by a mile. And seeing/hearing these streams and players from that other game really pushing to play this game gives me hope that Hex will grow substantially in this calendar year. But how long do you think that this healthy growth will keep and not revert to us hardcore fans with 9-12 month gaps in new set drops. I am also not asking for a "We are going to better, you will see speech" either, because I don't care about words, I care about actions, and actions are going to speak to these players more than anything anyone here, including me, can say.

I am not worried about the community if Set 4 is another 3-4 weeks out, we have already waited something like 36 weeks for it already, this is a drop in the bucket, nor am I worried that people won't be complaining about wait times once they are off the races drafting/building/sealeding Primal Dawn until they pass out at their desks with auto-draft going. What I am worried about is the hit that will come to the optics of HexEnt when/if another bad delay happens (I am looking at you raids/multiplayer) and that this perceived lack of communication starts the death knell of a game that I want to go as long as the other guy.

Cernz
04-11-2016, 09:30 PM
The problem with the future release information for new sets wont be solved with not spoiling release date windows, just because the community knows that new sets are planned to be released in 3-4 month cycles... so if no new major content hits for 5-6+ month in future, the rant will start over and over again... thats why not posting information about releases even with delay or reasons for delays are less worse than post nothing or “when its done“ stuff.

Also the friday update isnt that important, just move it to monthly updates with some development information, less often, but more insight.

Also the majority of the ppl who complain are in love with hex, this game is just too good, otherwise noone would care about delays and stuff.

go hex ;)

sukebe
04-11-2016, 10:35 PM
Honestly, I don't know who planned this steam release window, but knowing what is happening with your direct competition, I feel like this was a drastic oversight. You have a situation where one of your competitors for viewership just released a revisiting of arguably their most popular set and it is coming soon to their digital platform. On the other hand, you have their direct digital-space competitor about to release their next big set, including huge sweeping format changes, in two weeks, as well as their next big franchise in four.

I can understand the bugs, delays, and uh-oh what happened here moments popping up and delaying something. I know that the back-end of PvE, changing base rule-sets, and art issues have caused a larger majority of the delays. I can say that I get it. What I don't understand, however, is how much longer this can go when your competition is putting out sets at a clip of 3 months or less with 20+ years more cards to have to bug test for and sniff out. I am not saying we should be at a point that those guys are, but it sure looks bad to hear that it is taking us 3x the time of the other guy's longest set release window.

This isn't a "I quit" post or a "I am not playing this game until X" post, because realistically, I think this game is better at digital-space card gaming than the other options by a mile. And seeing/hearing these streams and players from that other game really pushing to play this game gives me hope that Hex will grow substantially in this calendar year. But how long do you think that this healthy growth will keep and not revert to us hardcore fans with 9-12 month gaps in new set drops. I am also not asking for a "We are going to better, you will see speech" either, because I don't care about words, I care about actions, and actions are going to speak to these players more than anything anyone here, including me, can say.

I am not worried about the community if Set 4 is another 3-4 weeks out, we have already waited something like 36 weeks for it already, this is a drop in the bucket, nor am I worried that people won't be complaining about wait times once they are off the races drafting/building/sealeding Primal Dawn until they pass out at their desks with auto-draft going. What I am worried about is the hit that will come to the optics of HexEnt when/if another bad delay happens (I am looking at you raids/multiplayer) and that this perceived lack of communication starts the death knell of a game that I want to go as long as the other guy.

They already said (or at least implied) that they did not expect to get accepted to steam this quickly and that they were caught by surprise. From what they have said they did not expect this to happen any time soon.

It is my personal belief (in other words, my own assumption) that this is one of the reasons set 4 is taking longer as they had to get to work preparing to connect to steam ahead of what they had originally planned. Of course I could be totally off base here, I just wanted to point out that this was not apparently planned to happen this month.

They have already said that this long of a delay in set releases is no more acceptable to them than it is to us and will be a major focus for them on future sets. Corey did say they don't expect they will likely hit their goal of a new set every 4 months for at least another 2 sets but that they should get closer and closer on each one.

XyZyddious
04-11-2016, 10:39 PM
On a quick note, it appears as though the Steam release date has changed from April 12th to April 19th. Possible Primal Dawn release date?

Jugg
04-11-2016, 10:43 PM
Corey did say they don't expect they will likely hit their goal of a new set every 4 months for at least another 2 sets ...

Yeh, set 5 early 2017. xD



On a quick note, it appears as though the Steam release date has changed from April 12th to April 19th. Possible Primal Dawn release date?

Not a chance. Releasing set 4 at the same time as steam launch would be awful. They need to be a week or two apart at least.

Mejis
04-11-2016, 11:37 PM
[snip]

It is my personal belief (in other words, my own assumption) that this is one of the reasons set 4 is taking longer as they had to get to work preparing to connect to steam ahead of what they had originally planned. Of course I could be totally off base here, I just wanted to point out that this was not apparently planned to happen this month.



If this is the case, and I believe it is too, then why not come out and be honest and tell us all? When Chris broke the news about the memory leak causing the Set 3 delay, everyone applauded the honesty and information (one of the greatest posts ever btw). I firmly believe the same thing would happen here and people would be happy to just know what's going on. I know there are posts further up about the level of "infinite information" that a community wants, and I get that, but some level of explanation is healthy in this case I believe.

Going from "early April", to "nearly done" to "soon" to "we can't give a release date yet" etc etc with no real reasoning is why people are up in arms (in the best possible way of course -- as ever, this community rocks for its maturity).

I'm certainly not going anywhere in terms of abandonment as I love HEX to pieces. But at the moment my play time is being filled with other games (and look, I'm even going to be honest and say that I've been playing a bit of Magic Duels because of the Oath/SOI sets that just released -- I'm not necessarily proud of that, but it does serve to make a point, though of course it goes without saying that Duels is a far far far far inferior game and is riddled with some crippling bugs/design decisions atm). I am DESPERATE to get into set 4 draft and sealed. I cannot wait to be throwing money at you guys for another amazing set and for those tingles of cracking open a sealed pool and seeing what wonders it holds and feeling my collection grow with each packs, yada yada.

katkillad
04-12-2016, 12:08 AM
Also the majority of the ppl who complain are in love with hex, this game is just too good, otherwise noone would care about delays and stuff.

go hex ;)

As critical as I can be, Hex is the 2nd longest game I've continually played with WoW being the first. That's pretty impressive, but telling us in January set 4 was practically finished and 3 months later here we are... it's pretty unacceptable. Knightofeffect pretty much summed that up though. I'm not sure less communication because people will interpret it how they will is the answer either. If you can't hit a 2 week release date announcement, which is why I think set 4 won't drop in April now, or not be confident enough to give a release date longer than 4 days before the launch then your problem isn't communication.

dylannorthrup
04-12-2016, 06:32 AM
Yes, it was something that while we believed at the time we'd hit that date, clearly it's created an expectation that we're going to miss (assuming one believes early April is 1st through the 15th).

Bolding by me.

Not to play gotcha or be pedantic, Shaq, but what exactly would your definition of "early April" be? And is it called "assuming" when you base your definition of "early April" on the accepted definitions of "early" and "April" as well as the conventions of using the adjective "early" in front of the noun "April" as they are traditionally used in English?

This, right here, is my least favorite part of Hex's communication. The "oh, you thought words had meaning? how dare you believe that and hold us to it?" style of communication. It's something that was largely (if not totally) absent when Phenteo was around and it's something I'm not thrilled to see a return of.

Thrawn
04-12-2016, 07:01 AM
Reading updates has become so fast. You can just check the forums/Reddit to see if the set 4 release was announced and if the answer is no you don't even need to waste time reading the update and can go back to playing other games.

fido_one
04-12-2016, 07:02 AM
Bolding by me.

Not to play gotcha or be pedantic, Shaq, but what exactly would your definition of "early April" be? And is it called "assuming" when you base your definition of "early April" on the accepted definitions of "early" and "April" as well as the conventions of using the adjective "early" in front of the noun "April" as they are traditionally used in English?

This, right here, is my least favorite part of Hex's communication. The "oh, you thought words had meaning? how dare you believe that and hold us to it?" style of communication. It's something that was largely (if not totally) absent when Phenteo was around and it's something I'm not thrilled to see a return of.

Yeah, 'early April' can be interpreted to mean April 1-10th, 'mid april' 11-20th, 'late April' 20th-30th. I don't think anyone calls 'April 15th' early April to be honest, and if HexEnt wanted to have that window they would have said 'first half of April'.

Phenteo or no Phenteo, I just don't understand why there wasn't a message somewhere from someone saying 'looks like we are going to miss the early April time frame, we'll update you as soon as we figure out a new date' <- I think a lot of our frustration is we don't even get those messages. I know we gripe a lot, but it's because we all care a tremendous amount about the game. That will not be the case with Steam, and it will be difficult or impossible to undue that sort of easily preventable bad karma.

Shaqattaq
04-12-2016, 11:36 AM
I think this conversation is getting oddly hung up on what "early April" means. That's why I hope players will wait for an official date. There's no confusion there.

poizonous
04-12-2016, 11:42 AM
Regardless of whatever early April means it definitely doesn't mean anything after Friday if we don't get a date announcement. Patience is one thing but at this point anyone left with patience is white knighting or should be up for sainthood

Shaqattaq
04-12-2016, 11:49 AM
Regardless of whatever early April means it definitely doesn't mean anything after Friday if we don't get a date announcement. Patience is one thing but at this point anyone left with patience is white knighting or should be up for sainthood

Nobody responds well to the types of statements as I quoted above, but I can guarantee there won't be an official date announcement for Primal Dawn on Friday. What I can say is that our internal projected date for Primal Dawn won't have moved by Friday either. Clearly Steam launch is a huge piece and we'll have a better idea once we're past that. Also, not guaranteeing a date announcement immediately after Steam Launch either. As I discussed yesterday, there are many variables affecting Primal Dawn's release date, and we'll announce it when we're confident in it.

Metronomy
04-12-2016, 11:49 AM
What bothers me is the question how you can ever potentialy release set 5 in time. Anything more than 5 months (maximum 6) for set 5 would be another disaster (and potentialy one too many). Since Set 4 was according to Cory "basically done" since 4/5 months how can Set 5 ever be released in 5 months after set 4 ?

I understand there is a big difference between "basically done" and "done" but it just speaks not well for the future. I dont know where the issues are (although I understand that AZ1 took much time). Maybe your coding department is understaffed. Maybe you dont have the priorities right. If features are delayed (like mercs, raids, guild and whatever) thats one thing. But people can wait a little longer for those as long as there is new set content. Having 7 to 9 months between sets is a guaranteed way to lose players. Set 5 will be the true test and you may not fail on that one again. I cannot stress this enough.

Shaqattaq
04-12-2016, 11:54 AM
What bothers me is the question how you can ever potentialy release set 5 in time. Anything more than 5 months (maximum 6) for set 5 would be another disaster (and potentialy one too many). Since Set 4 was according to Cory "basically done" since 4/5 months how can Set 5 ever be released in 5 months after set 4 ?

I understand there is a big difference between "basically done" and "done" but it just speaks not well for the future. I dont know where the issues are (although I understand that AZ1 took much time). Maybe your coding department is understaffed. Maybe you dont have the priorities right. If features are delayed (like mercs, raids, guild and whatever) thats one thing. But people can wait a little longer for those as long as there is new set content. Having 7 to 9 months between sets is a guaranteed way to lose players. Set 5 will be the true test and you may not fail on that one again. I cannot stress this enough.

Your repeated concerns in this thread have been, genuinely, noted. As I said earlier to the community, I'd rather show you that we did better and then discuss it than throw words at it. Actions are what matters at this point, yes?

Cernz
04-12-2016, 11:59 AM
As a lot of ppl did mention, we dont care about delays, but we care about not telling us why! everything would be better with the right information ;)

poizonous
04-12-2016, 12:00 PM
Shaq, Corey said himself 9 months is unacceptable. More of your posts leads to a May release. If 9 months is unacceptable what is 10 months? Going from early April to getting told on April 12th "internal projected date" that's disturbing and worrisome and no actions at this point aren't better than words that can be used as truth

Shaqattaq
04-12-2016, 12:15 PM
As a lot of ppl did mention, we dont care about delays, but we care about not telling us why! everything would be better with the right information ;)

There are many factors, one of which I just mentioned three posts above yours-- Steam release. Other HEX devs have discussed this point as well, as far as I know.


Shaq, Corey said himself 9 months is unacceptable. More of your posts leads to a May release. If 9 months is unacceptable what is 10 months? Going from early April to getting told on April 12th "internal projected date" that's disturbing and worrisome and no actions at this point aren't better than words that can be used as truth

Don't read into things. That's been one of the main messages in this discussion the entire time-- it's natural to want to do it, but ultimately you're doing so with imperfect information at best and won't come to a correct answer. There is no date to announce and there's no angle of inquiry which will reveal one.

Why is "internal projected date" worrisome? Of course we have internal dates. We don't have the luxury of being a big publisher with features long complete before announcement and then release. We serve up features as they're done, and respecting players in waiting to give them an accurate, reliable date is part of the cost. Yes, the amount of time between set releases is disappointing, and I've already outlined how we set our own traps regarding these launches. I don't know what else you're looking for, other than an official date announcement.

fido_one
04-12-2016, 12:24 PM
I think this conversation is getting oddly hung up on what "early April" means. That's why I hope players will wait for an official date. There's no confusion there.

If the main criticism that is being thrown about by all sides in HexEnt's ability to effectively communicate, namely in the area of release windows and dates in general, I don't think it is an odd hang up at all. Rather it's the point.

My worry is that you are reverting to Blizzard tactics, which is 'it will be done when it is done'. Blizzard says that from the start and keeps things mum. HexEnt has an established history of saying dates or time frames ('early April' hangup) and then reverting to the Blizzard 'it will be done when it is done' <- doesn't work when everyone is hyped on a time frame.

In part of the back and forth sans communication a lot of the arguments have been amplified [on many threads] , so I worry this is getting a bit out of hand. From my biased vantage point, it seems that a lot of people just want some communication more than a specific date in mind. One of your other comments really makes it sound like steam is going to come before set 4. Since there is a thread in the general forum going back and forth on the topic, I wonder why no one from HexEnt has weighed in.

Yes, people will gripe with the weigh in one way or another, but they'll do that with more bitterness after the fact if they've been in the dark. Ya'll are going to take a hit one way or another, one just seems like it would mitigate the damage a lot, and that's popping into a thread like that and saying 'we're leaning towards a steam release first and set 4 afterwards, I can't go into more detail than that, but that's what it is looking like at the moment...' Add more info if you can, expect some push back on that info, but again, expect it to be filled with a lot less vitriol than if you say nothing.

The Steam launch is going to be bumpy - I don't care how many cylinders are firing over there at the moment, even top of your game there will be issues. The community will be there to help (like it or not), and that help will be improved with each bit of info we have to tear apart before hand, even if the process is painful to watch from your end. Why chance all of those new users seeing that saltiness and debating the cadence of steam/set releases on the forums right after launch? Better to have us dissect things and have anxiety attacks before you have a legion of new eyes with money behind them looking at the forums to see what things are like.

I've added my 432534 cents at this point and will exit. Shaq, hats off for taking all the shrapnel on this issue, you are to be commended sir. I think we all greatly appreciate your input even if we disagree with some of it.

magic_gazz
04-12-2016, 01:06 PM
Nobody responds well to the types of statements as I quoted above, but I can guarantee there won't be an official date announcement for Primal Dawn on Friday. What I can say is that our internal projected date for Primal Dawn won't have moved by Friday either. Clearly Steam launch is a huge piece and we'll have a better idea once we're past that. Also, not guaranteeing a date announcement immediately after Steam Launch either. As I discussed yesterday, there are many variables affecting Primal Dawn's release date, and we'll announce it when we're confident in it.

So not next week and probably not the week after. So early March at best.

The question is why not just say that? People have repeatedly said they would rather be given dates and then updates on when those dates change than just be kept in the dark and told "soon, maybe".

You have said that you have an internal date for Primal Dawn release, why not just come out and say it and the reasons why it is that date and possible things that could change it. At least that would be seen as better communication and give people some idea what is going on.

funktion
04-12-2016, 01:51 PM
Feels like there aren't too many voices in this thread but what I'd like to say myself is something I've also been telling myself lately.

"Don't be so reluctant to share bad news." I fall into the mindset if I don't have something good to share with people that I'd rather just keep it to myself but the issue with that is that you wind up leaving people out of the loop to come to their own conclusions. I've seen people in here say they wanna know exactly why a delay might be occurring with stuff like an exact number of bugs that are out there or what feature still needs implementation. The more specific those types of announcements might be the less they help though, it just gives people more room to pick things apart with a limited understanding of what might actually be going on.

Largely statements have resembled "Set 4 is coming out at some point." (early x month / soon / etc) They're all vague answers, and it is totally understandable why a concrete date can't be given if there isn't a concrete date in the first place. My 2 cents is that if we can't have concrete release dates then the next best thing is to have concrete statements like "Set 4 WILL NOT be released in the next 2 weeks." or "In order for us to release set 4, first we need to do X. X will take us at least another month."

Giving people hope for something that isn't going to occur is just squandering 'community capital' and that might not be happening majorly at any given point but if it continues incrementally it just sets the standard that people should always expect to be disappointed.

Lastly I'd like to highlight two things that Cory has regularly stated and re-stated.
"Lack of set releases will kill a TCG more than anything else hands down." - I feel like everyone (inside and out) knows what the stakes are right now, and not just right now but going forward for the next few sets. We all get it, this matters a lot.

"The goal is to always have something exciting going on in Hex, something compelling that makes players want to log in an play the game each week." - I can imagine / hope that there might be some sort of steam launch or tie in event that could even help breathe some fire into the game for existing players, throwback drafts or bonus PVE rewards would both be pretty sweet. What I'm getting at though is if the team feels like there's even the possibility that there is going to be a big gap between content releases then throwing in some small stuff in the meantime would go a long long way. I get that takes some number of man hours to do and so there is a cost vs benefit to be had there. It feels like the team genuinely thought set 4 was going to be out significantly sooner but preparing for these what-if scenarios would probably go a long way for everyone involved.

Xenavire
04-12-2016, 02:15 PM
I wonder if something simple might be better than something complicated?

Let's say, for arguments sake, that the team decides together when to announce a projected date (early April being a good example.) Now, assuming this goes down well with the whole team, everyone is on board, then it probably seems like a great idea. But history has demonstrated that this is rarely the case. So what if you took a good, hard look at how you have been preparing info (including Cory being insanely charming and optimistic) and just sit on it for say, a week. You have a week buffer to discover whatever is potentially wrong, what might delay it, etc. Now, that's not to say you should delay announcements to the last minute, or push back release dates, it's more a point of taking a step back, even when things seem to be falling perfectly into place, and checking your surroundings for potential pitfalls before forging ahead.

Now, I am not saying you aren't doing this already, or that you should follow this to the letter, but I think the sentiment should be clear - as hungry as we are for info, a single week with no info is going to hurt us less than whatever shifted expectations might do. After all, the bulk of the backlash has been A) a hit and miss timetable, and B) a hit and miss release window after it is announced. We can't fully safeguard against A), but B) is something that should be doable.


Now, on the flipside of the coin, bad news: getting that ASAP hurts less than having things drawn out. Now I can already foresee plenty of times where waiting a few days to see if something can be fixed will be the prudent move, but I feel the minute you are sure it will have a negative impact (and a is something that matters to the public) it should probably be shared. This doesn't have to be paraded out in public like the town drunk on a bender, but as long as we as a community are aware of potential hiccups, we can temper our expectations. After all, ripping the bandaid off fast may hurt just as much, but it's much more bearable.

I hope my musings give a little food for thought, even if most of it is just an echo of what others have already said.

bootlace
04-12-2016, 03:51 PM
What the problem boils down to is there is no transparency into what you guys are doing and what is leading to these delays. I think most people following the Invitational were thinking that bug squashing was all that was left and release only rested on that being taken care of. Now thanks to some tidbits in this thread we've essentially found out that bugs aren't really whats holding things back. Piecing together different bits of info, it seems the Steam release is what is holding it back.

If you straight up communicated to the players that Set 4 release would be delayed because of the Steam launch, and given some good reasons as to why this is the order in which you are prioritizing things (which I'm sure there are) then people would have been much more understanding..not only for the fact that you're being upfront and honest but also because there's an actual external reason beyond the team's normal duties for the delay. Heck maybe Cory was even right about Set 4 being ready for release in Early April and the only thing that prevented it from happening was the Steam news...that bit of information alone would inspire some more confidence.

Instead what we got were threads where people are asking all confused which is coming first (Steam or Set 4), then some tidbits of information from Colin suggesting the Steam timeline caught you guys abit off-guard, and now pretty much confirmation in this thread that indeed this is what seems to be transpiring.

TLDR: In the end we have, we are, or we will sort of find out what happened so instead of keeping the players in the dark guessing/confused/frustrated/angry/helpless at what is going - I really think you should have just come out and explained a bit what this reshuffling so close to Set 4 release is about.

hex_colin
04-12-2016, 03:56 PM
Instead what we got were threads where people are asking all confused which is coming first (Steam or Set 4), then some tidbits of information from Colin suggesting the Steam timeline caught you guys abit off-guard, and now pretty much confirmation in this thread that indeed this is what seems to be transpiring.

To be clear I wasn't suggesting that the Steam release caught anyone off-guard, just pointing out that it isn't something that has a timeline that is controlled by the developer. Steam decides when to approve stuff on this own schedule.

Mejis
04-12-2016, 04:20 PM
What the problem boils down to is there is no transparency into what you guys are doing and what is leading to these delays. I think most people following the Invitational were thinking that bug squashing was all that was left and release only rested on that being taken care of. Now thanks to some tidbits in this thread we've essentially found out that bugs aren't really whats holding things back. Piecing together different bits of info, it seems the Steam release is what is holding it back.

If you straight up communicated to the players that Set 4 release would be delayed because of the Steam launch, and given some good reasons as to why this is the order in which you are prioritizing things (which I'm sure there are) then people would have been much more understanding..not only for the fact that you're being upfront and honest but also because there's an actual external reason beyond the team's normal duties for the delay. Heck maybe Cory was even right about Set 4 being ready for release in Early April and the only thing that prevented it from happening was the Steam news...that bit of information alone would inspire some more confidence.

Instead what we got were threads where people are asking all confused which is coming first (Steam or Set 4), then some tidbits of information from Colin suggesting the Steam timeline caught you guys abit off-guard, and now pretty much confirmation in this thread that indeed this is what seems to be transpiring.

TLDR: In the end we have, we are, or we will sort of find out what happened so instead of keeping the players in the dark guessing/confused/frustrated/angry/helpless at what is going - I really think you should have just come out and explained a bit what this reshuffling so close to Set 4 release is about.

This is absolutely how I feel too (for what it's worth).

Thrawn
04-12-2016, 05:17 PM
This is absolutely how I feel too (for what it's worth).

Fingers crossed that we get a really solid new CM in place soon that addresses some of those issues.

Voormas
04-12-2016, 07:36 PM
From how I read things; Hex have been working on Steam integration stuff for a while under some dev branch, in the meantime people had been planning other development / releases with just a questions mark for steam in the timeline > we get damn close to Set 4 release, Valve finally make up their mind about approving the game, now Hex have to push live a bunch of stuff to support that and so can't / won't release the new set before then (I imagine a whole bunch of bug-testing probably has to be re-done to make sure the steam dev branch stuff doesn't break any existing cards / other "done" cards)

It sounds like some really unfortunate timing :( I wish you guys had move devs to get all that testing / etc done quicker (or have had it done already) so we could get shiny cards sooner - but I guess with the Steam launch that will give you enough of a cash injection to hire on more people (which should give a bit of breathing room for everyone who has been working hard! don't burn yourselves out)

It's still pretty frustrating but realistically you guys are a small shop with a super-ambitious goal; I hope Steam and Set 4 can maybe help you get towards being a medium sized shop :)

Gregangel
04-12-2016, 11:39 PM
Guys, seriously, we become very ridiculous by whining like little children who keep asking why why? why? Don't you think ?

They said early april without been specific, they didn't make it because of stream integration and others dev stuff. They delivered a QoL patch to prepare the stream lauch what clearly mean no set 4 before steam lauch.

So that's means steam next week or the week after and a set 4 one to 3 weeks after that. You really don't need to have more information than that

Like children, your daddy or mommy will not give you the new toy because you keep asking but why, but why, but why ?


The real issue is just delay between set which is a high risk of premature death for the game if next sets are not released with reasonnable delays. And they are aware of that.

So back off guys

katkillad
04-12-2016, 11:48 PM
We were having a perfectly civil conversation and debate until your comment.

Gregangel
04-13-2016, 12:31 AM
It was certainly not.
You may save the appearances by writing a tones of lines which keep reapeting the same complaint over and over again.
Bottom line it's children whining and sometimes even worst : kickstarter backers over self-estime thinking they need to know every thing about the game dev.

I really don't think, right now, the forum give a flattering image of the established hex community.
And it's a little too bad because new players are coming.

Jugg
04-13-2016, 12:43 AM
It was certainly not.
You may save the appearances by writing a tones of lines which keep reapeting the same complaint over and over again.
Bottom line it's children whining and sometimes even worst : kickstarter backers over self-estime thinking they need to know every thing about the game dev.

I really don't think, right now, the forum give a flattering image of the established hex community.
And it's a little too bad because new players are coming.

Get off your soapbox buddy. Players that have been around from the start, are upset because the devs no longer communicate like they used to. They're upset because they love the game, and hate to see HXE kill the hypetrain yet again. This isn't a case of entitlement, this is loving concern. The hex forums have always been some of the most insanely evangelistic communities to grace the world of gaming... and you want to pin their collective change of mood back on them? Are you nuts?

Gregangel
04-13-2016, 12:51 AM
Right now as a hex community renowned for its conviviality and its generousness, we need to push set 4 in the back of our head (because nothing we say will change some fact) and think about the best way to welcome new players and make them stay

If i were Cory and given the constant same complaints, i would shut down the kickstarter communication mode with friday updates and all.
And i would apply a "no more communication about dev" until each patch update is 100 % ready to lauch next day and hold back the release 3 or 4 weeks to allow teasing and some spoilers activity.

More like a lambda relationship between dev and players... but your loss

katkillad
04-13-2016, 01:30 AM
My Dark Souls 3 pre-order from Amazon got delayed by 1 day and you can bet I gave someone in India an earful about it. What about the people who got told the day they thought their Occulus Rift pre-orders were shipping that they were delayed for several weeks/months, do you think they just sat quietly? What is happening here is a result of recently abysmal communication and a track record of like 1 out of 10 at hitting announced dates going back years before your join date, so maybe this is something you just can't understand.

You want to know what is childish? Being upset that people are saying things you don't like and then resorting to calling them names.

Cernz
04-13-2016, 04:26 AM
finally, .... grab your pitchforks ! :D

bootlace
04-13-2016, 05:22 AM
Guys, seriously, we become very ridiculous by whining like little children who keep asking why why? why? Don't you think ?

They said early april without been specific, they didn't make it because of stream integration and others dev stuff. They delivered a QoL patch to prepare the stream lauch what clearly mean no set 4 before steam lauch.

So that's means steam next week or the week after and a set 4 one to 3 weeks after that. You really don't need to have more information than that

Like children, your daddy or mommy will not give you the new toy because you keep asking but why, but why, but why ?


The real issue is just delay between set which is a high risk of premature death for the game if next sets are not released with reasonnable delays. And they are aware of that.

So back off guys

I dont know if this was replying to my latest post but here's why I'm specifically harping about this incident:

1) It's yet another case where HxE shoot themselves in the foot for no other reason than their, IMO, misguided belief that staying mostly quiet is the best course of action. From what it sounds like, there was opportunity to actually turn this whole incident from a negative to a positive by explaining how great it will be for the company that Steam release will happen before Set 4 and asking the playerbase to hang in there for a few more weeks because it's really something that's going to be beneficial to everyone. Sure some people will be upset as is the case with everything but the core of the people here are in it for the long haul and genuinely care about the company so they would be very supportive of this kind of upfront explanation. Anyways it's not like this fact is not going to come out, but you had an opportunity to manage/shape people's reactions of this instead of letting it linger and lead to people thinking the worst.

2) They are in the process of hiring a new Community Manager and if there's a time to voice our thoughts/ideas/criticisms it is exactly now. In the end the Community Manager's success will be predicated based on how well WE deem he is doing, not anyone else. You have to know your audience and craft a communication strategy specifically around them. Even when we had a CM, and he seemed like a nice and well meaning person, the communication problem/strategy/approach was something that kept coming up. This tells me that a difference in approach is required.

For example the Lotus changes: apparently some explanation around it is coming (based again on Colin and nothing super official) and I'm sure there's both a good reason why the changes happened and why you haven't made an explanation yet, but why have you not officially come out and said you're preparing that and the reason why you're waiting on it. As we speak people are angrily talking about this exact issue on the general forums upping their general displeasure and creating a bad impression for your company for new comers. Most people are more angry that you made this change without a single note about it than the change itself. "We are preparing an in-depth explanation on the change to the Mystic Squirrel. We understand this is an important card for many of you and we take this change very seriously. We are waiting on a few final technical aspects before we are comfortable releasing it. Thank you for your patience". Just that 1 minute to write that would have gone a long way.

Anyways those are my thoughts as someone who's following the game/community pretty closely. I honestly don't care about the WHYs and the WHENs as much as I want to see HxE doing well. I would hope these words come across as constructive and not inflammatory towards anyone at HxE (in fact it's why I feel free to do it now with no CM and hence there being no feelings in the way to get hurt.)

fido_one
04-13-2016, 05:31 AM
finally, .... grab your pitchforks ! :D

Hahaha poor Gregangel, that was the worst time to step in and gripe about griping. Everyone's hostilities have been reassigned.

EDIT: A quick note on this, CZE created forums. For a community they intentionally wanted to be more-devoted-than-normal. They aren't idiots. If they thought the forums would be anything short of criticism Valhalla, they would have taken them down a long time ago.

Gregangel
04-13-2016, 05:42 AM
My reaction target no specific posts, but a more general mood.

I hope everybody realize your complaints exists only because Hex E decided to make game developpemen t close to the players in the first place.
And now it's backfiring on them because when you give a hand to someone, this someone will rapidly want to grab your arm.
So it's a bit unfair, i think.

bootlace
04-13-2016, 06:19 AM
My reaction target no specific posts, but a more general mood.

I hope everybody realize your complaints exists only because Hex E decided to make game developpemen t close to the players in the first place.
And now it's backfiring on them because when you give a hand to someone, this someone will rapidly want to grab your arm.
So it's a bit unfair, i think.

This is not some knee-jerk reaction to the latest drama that's going on - it's the culmination of my feelings on this topic over a 2.5 year period. And if you listen to what I said I don't want better communication to satisfy my curiosity but instead it's to improve the community's perception/tolerance of HxE.

Not that it's directly related to the communication stuff but Hex Entertainment actually haven't been open about their game development in a long long while. One week before the Campaign release most of us didn't even have a solid idea of what sort of game awaited us. Still for most of the outstanding features we have no idea what they are going to be or look like or if they're still in the game (Guilds? Keeps? Crafting? Double-Backs? We don't have any idea what those are going to be like. Heck we don't even know if there's even an MMO component to the game being made).

When we signed up to the Kickstarter/Alpha/Beta we were told we would be in there watching the sausages get made, alot of us wanted exactly that. Quickly enough we got kicked out of the factory and we've been waiting out in the cold outside the factory and only once in a blue moon does someone stick their head out (usually Colin <3) and mentions a few rumblings of what might going on inside the factory.

I don't know how long you've been around but we lost a TON of valuable forum contributors, players, guilds, community sites, and more during this time. I don't know how much a better communication strategy would have helped keep those players in given the length/nature of the delays but it's probably not negligible. Maybe at some point the fear of having their ideas stolen or the lawsuit prevented them from being forthcomin. But at this stage when they're trying to pick-up momentum it's kind of disappointing to hear that they're going in the opposite direction of even less communication/transparency rather than embracing us and keeping us in the loop.

fido_one
04-13-2016, 06:42 AM
This is not some knee-jerk reaction to the latest drama that's going on - it's the culmination of my feelings on this topic over a 2.5 year period. And if you listen to what I said I don't want better communication to satisfy my curiosity but instead it's to improve the community's perception/tolerance of HxE.

Not that it's directly related to the communication stuff but Hex Entertainment actually haven't been open about their game development in a long long while. One week before the Campaign release most of us didn't even have a solid idea of what sort of game awaited us. Still for most of the outstanding features we have no idea what they are going to be or look like or if they're still in the game (Guilds? Keeps? Crafting? Double-Backs? We don't have any idea what those are going to be like. Heck we don't even know if there's even an MMO component to the game being made).

When we signed up to the Kickstarter/Alpha/Beta we were told we would be in there watching the sausages get made, alot of us wanted exactly that. Quickly enough we got kicked out of the factory and we've been waiting out in the cold outside the factory and only once in a blue moon does someone stick their head out (usually Colin <3) and mentions a few rumblings of what might going on inside the factory.

I don't know how long you've been around but we lost a TON of valuable forum contributors, players, guilds, community sites, and more during this time. I don't know how much a better communication strategy would have helped keep those players in given the length/nature of the delays but it's probably not negligible. Maybe at some point the fear of having their ideas stolen or the lawsuit prevented them from being forthcomin. But at this stage when they're trying to pick-up momentum it's kind of disappointing to hear that they're going in the opposite direction of even less communication/transparency rather than embracing us and keeping us in the loop.

Yep. It really seems that they have holed themselves up, which I hope isn't true as that isn't the game I signed on for. The community and game itself was built on the foundation bootlace talks about here and as annoying as we can be, it's that openness that has allowed people who have invested a massive amount of money and time into the game and still be promoting it when it is 3 years past its original promises and overlooking some serious missteps. Honestly I don't think many other games would have been able to endure some of the communication snafus that Hex has had over the years, there are a lot of examples of how that sort of thing deep sixes a dev.

There has definitely been a severe change of tone in engaging the community, and if members of that community say it's alienating you really want them to be able to state so without fear of judgement. Especially at a time where you are going to lean quite heavily on that community to support your game in the biggest move since you were funded by the KS.

It has been that openness that has also kept the game relevant IMO. Remember how they were going to mess with turn phases and reversed? By their own admittance, they would not have done that reversal without the griping of the community. I honestly believe we would have a far less engaging game on our hands.

I also worry about the perception that another round of CM = silver bullet. The problem is bigger than what one person can do. Corey has said more than a few times that 'everyone reads the forums', and that they are 50 strong. We don't hear much from HexEnt employees though. I know they are busy, but they are cut from the same cloth as us, so I am assuming a lot of them want to weigh in. Are they not allowed to without going through a CM? It seems like HexEnt has stifled communication in general in fear of people standing on pieces of info (which, as other posters have pointed out, is probably far less damaging than the speculation that comes with hearing nothing). I agree that the most info we hear from is from people like Colin, and as much as we love him, that's not right and not fair to him. Nothing against the man, but I have always enjoyed hearing from people like Shaq and Chark (and the other ones that pop in) about a hundred times more than Cory, as of course we'll get unicorn farts and rainbows from him, that's kind of his job. Now it seems like those three are the only ones that really do any talking about what is going on with development and progress of the game.

Ugh, said I was out of this debate. It's soooo important though. We're at a turning point with Steam release and this is the worst time ever to go dark on your community. That and I'm not thinking straight, been suffering a bought of insomnia and am a hotter mess than normal as a result.

Thrawn
04-13-2016, 07:02 AM
Right now as a hex community renowned for its conviviality and its generousness, we need to push set 4 in the back of our head (because nothing we say will change some fact) and think about the best way to welcome new players and make them stay

If i were Cory and given the constant same complaints, i would shut down the kickstarter communication mode with friday updates and all.
And i would apply a "no more communication about dev" until each patch update is 100 % ready to lauch next day and hold back the release 3 or 4 weeks to allow teasing and some spoilers activity.

More like a lambda relationship between dev and players... but your loss

Wouldn't it be easier to eliminate the middle man in that instance and let Hex die since that would be the end result of that approach anyways?

I doubt many people would argue that a big reason Hex is still here and has as much support as it does is because of the past openness of Cory and the devs and how passionate the community is. If we had not had a single update or piece of information about Set 4 up until this point I would wager that these forums would either be dead or nothing but hostility and flaming of the game.

Gregangel
04-13-2016, 07:19 AM
Yes until now. But with a steam release and, we hope, lots a new players who never heard about the game until now, will this kind of policy remain appropriate ?

fido_one
04-13-2016, 07:25 AM
Yes until now. But with a steam release and, we hope, lots a new players who never heard about the game until now, will this kind of policy remain appropriate ?

Well if you take your policy suggestion, I give it a month before Steam down votes the game to oblivion. That policy is what made the game and why the people who play the game are rabid proponents of said game. Take it away, you don't have Hex anymore, you have a different game entirely which most of us wouldn't be interested in (and that includes people who never have gone to the forums).

Thrawn
04-13-2016, 07:29 AM
Yes until now. But with a steam release and, we hope, lots a new players who never heard about the game until now, will this kind of policy remain appropriate ?

The policy remains necessary until Hex has reliable and consistent content releases.

Gregangel
04-13-2016, 07:39 AM
There are lots of topic to talk about others than game developpement. Competitive scene, game strategy, lore, community involvment... Lots of stuff but no more dev updates until a 100 % patch ready to launch.

And then : "we are please to announce you the releaase of set x in 3 weeks, the xxxxxx. Until then stay tune for more news about what amazing new stuff come up for you and some awesome cards spoilers ! "

fido_one
04-13-2016, 07:59 AM
There are lots of topic to talk about others than game developpement. Competitive scene, game strategy, lore, community involvment... Lots of stuff but no more dev updates until a 100 % patch ready to launch.

And then : "we are please to announce you the releaase of set x in 3 weeks, the xxxxxx. Until then stay tune for more news about what amazing new stuff come up for you and some awesome cards spoilers ! "

Errr, they've tried to do exactly that more than a few times and after the three weeks we don't hear anything. Set 3. PvE. Set 4.

Gregangel
04-13-2016, 08:08 AM
No they never did that. It was more like : we are close to a release date , we have some bug/design matter to deal with yet but we hope a release around xxxx.

I said no more dev update until a 100 % ready patch . no more dev work needed, just press the button. And then 3 week of teasing.

And so no more room for whining

Tazelbain
04-13-2016, 08:24 AM
Hex seems to be surviving on hope. Sparce communication lets the flame die.

magic_gazz
04-13-2016, 09:11 AM
There are lots of topic to talk about others than game developpement. Competitive scene, game strategy, lore, community involvment... "

I don't think there is much to say about those things. The competitive scene is done for the moment as there is nothing to play for. The majority of strategy has been covered with the set being out for 9 months. Majority of people are not really interested in lore, not sure what there is to discuss on the last point as the community is involved in this thread and you don't seem to like that.

katkillad
04-13-2016, 10:23 AM
No they never did that. It was more like : we are close to a release date , we have some bug/design matter to deal with yet but we hope a release around xxxx.


You are 100% incorrect.

icecon
04-13-2016, 11:30 AM
Some folks in this thread would do well to chill out about set 4. HexEnt loses money every month that the new set isn't out, no amount of forum whining is going to give them more of an incentive to ship it. And there is no doubt they are heavily focused on it.

If there is one thing can be said, is that continuing communication with us customers is very valuable. I'm not even a fan of spoiler season, but the fact that it came and effectively ended is really not good. It would be wise to continue feeding spoilers even if they were not planned, to help pacify the pitchfork wielders.

Shaqattaq
04-13-2016, 11:42 AM
What the problem boils down to is there is no transparency into what you guys are doing and what is leading to these delays. I think most people following the Invitational were thinking that bug squashing was all that was left and release only rested on that being taken care of. Now thanks to some tidbits in this thread we've essentially found out that bugs aren't really whats holding things back. Piecing together different bits of info, it seems the Steam release is what is holding it back.

If you straight up communicated to the players that Set 4 release would be delayed because of the Steam launch, and given some good reasons as to why this is the order in which you are prioritizing things (which I'm sure there are) then people would have been much more understanding..not only for the fact that you're being upfront and honest but also because there's an actual external reason beyond the team's normal duties for the delay. Heck maybe Cory was even right about Set 4 being ready for release in Early April and the only thing that prevented it from happening was the Steam news...that bit of information alone would inspire some more confidence.

Instead what we got were threads where people are asking all confused which is coming first (Steam or Set 4), then some tidbits of information from Colin suggesting the Steam timeline caught you guys abit off-guard, and now pretty much confirmation in this thread that indeed this is what seems to be transpiring.

TLDR: In the end we have, we are, or we will sort of find out what happened so instead of keeping the players in the dark guessing/confused/frustrated/angry/helpless at what is going - I really think you should have just come out and explained a bit what this reshuffling so close to Set 4 release is about.

No company has full transparency. I believe we're more open than most, and something I've tried to touch on is that it's difficult to satisfy everyone. We had people in this thread ranging from the position that we could end all Friday updates to having the position that we should share financials. From your posts, I understand that you think we should be far more transparent than we are. I'm not sure we'll ever be able to hit exactly where you as an individual would find ideal in our messaging, but we-- when fully staffed, at least-- strive for some hope of open channels of discussion, which has been happening in this thread over the past few days.

Earlier, you brought up a potential bug list and countdown, and I outlined even a bug countdown list is complicated and requires great context. Even if you, as Bootlace, are capable of understanding the complexities of the development process, that's an extremely high level of information that can't be expected of everyone. If a delay is even more complicated than a bug list, it would take a great deal of time investment on our part to create a thorough enough explanation of all the factors, their weight, and what it all means. And the matrix of factors could easily change day to day; in the past, it certainly has. That means even more messages going out and all the troubles that come with this approach, of which there are many. And ultimately, what does it result in? The feature doesn't launch any earlier. You can't take action based on that information either. The handful of high-information people (who have likely worked in games) understand the conversation, but most are still left with a flawed or incomplete picture of what's happened.

Real quick, I also wanted to address the topic of the Spectral Acorn. Once we declare that we're preparing a statement, we are now on a clock to deliver that statement. Again, we deliver content much, much faster upon completion of that content than your standard video game. If I had three months between a feature's completion and launch, sure, I could likely tell you dates. Games as a whole don't even really do that, though. Still, I don't have three months. And again, it doesn't exist in a vacuum. If we move the Spectral Acorn around in development or the launch schedule, suddenly we're "late" by pushing our own announcement when we didn't even have a guaranteed date to begin with. This, in a nutshell, is the basic trap we at HEX set for ourselves again and again. You'll see a Spectral Acorn statement close to its release, perhaps upon its release. In general, that's usually how messaging works and what you can expect with any feature.

To close, I want to say that I understand your frustration. We've discussed internally as a team which pain points we'll try to avoid in the future. I appreciate that you've been very clear and constructive with your posts, and trust that we've taken them in.

nicosharp
04-13-2016, 11:59 AM
This, in a nutshell, is the basic trap we at HEX set for ourselves again and again.
The puns!
Hope you guys are doing well, and the internal schedules are being met. Good luck!
Seems like a lot more is riding on set4 release than originally anticipated.

Elwinz
04-13-2016, 12:23 PM
poor Shaqqataq ^^. ON the one hand i feel for him ont he tohe r i am as much frustrated as everyone else.

icecon
04-13-2016, 07:17 PM
On a side note, if you guys flipped on the switch and gave us another flashback week, say this coming week, that would be mighty awesome ;)

I would personally spend all my plat if we got swiss flashback drafts. No doubt a lot of the new post pve-launch crowd would be very interested in that.

Mejis
04-13-2016, 07:30 PM
On a side note, if you guys flipped on the switch and gave us another flashback week, say this coming week, that would be mighty awesome ;)

I would personally spend all my plat if we got swiss flashback drafts. No doubt a lot of the new post pve-launch crowd would be very interested in that.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Flash me back! Totally up for that. I will purchase some plat immediately if that happens.

And Shaq, we do appreciate the posts and the time spent writing them, so thank you.
Best of luck to the team moving forwards.

knightofeffect
04-14-2016, 11:02 AM
No company has full transparency. I believe we're more open than most, and something I've tried to touch on is that it's difficult to satisfy everyone. We had people in this thread ranging from the position that we could end all Friday updates to having the position that we should share financials. From your posts, I understand that you think we should be far more transparent than we are. I'm not sure we'll ever be able to hit exactly where you as an individual would find ideal in our messaging, but we-- when fully staffed, at least-- strive for some hope of open channels of discussion, which has been happening in this thread over the past few days.

Earlier, you brought up a potential bug list and countdown, and I outlined even a bug countdown list is complicated and requires great context. Even if you, as Bootlace, are capable of understanding the complexities of the development process, that's an extremely high level of information that can't be expected of everyone. If a delay is even more complicated than a bug list, it would take a great deal of time investment on our part to create a thorough enough explanation of all the factors, their weight, and what it all means. And the matrix of factors could easily change day to day; in the past, it certainly has. That means even more messages going out and all the troubles that come with this approach, of which there are many. And ultimately, what does it result in? The feature doesn't launch any earlier. You can't take action based on that information either. The handful of high-information people (who have likely worked in games) understand the conversation, but most are still left with a flawed or incomplete picture of what's happened.

Real quick, I also wanted to address the topic of the Spectral Acorn. Once we declare that we're preparing a statement, we are now on a clock to deliver that statement. Again, we deliver content much, much faster upon completion of that content than your standard video game. If I had three months between a feature's completion and launch, sure, I could likely tell you dates. Games as a whole don't even really do that, though. Still, I don't have three months. And again, it doesn't exist in a vacuum. If we move the Spectral Acorn around in development or the launch schedule, suddenly we're "late" by pushing our own announcement when we didn't even have a guaranteed date to begin with. This, in a nutshell, is the basic trap we at HEX set for ourselves again and again. You'll see a Spectral Acorn statement close to its release, perhaps upon its release. In general, that's usually how messaging works and what you can expect with any feature.

To close, I want to say that I understand your frustration. We've discussed internally as a team which pain points we'll try to avoid in the future. I appreciate that you've been very clear and constructive with your posts, and trust that we've taken them in.

Thanks Shaq!

I will say this for you guys, at critical times you do really show that you do still have a listening ear, which at times can be our last bastion of hope.

It's been unfortunate that Hex manages to put itself in poor situations largely due to crazy circumstances (I.E. Spectral Acorn changes intertwined with settlement) and then compounded by several instances of poor and/or mismanaged communications. But again Hex is a small company, stretched thin, with clearly several critical development paths simultaneously, and without a highly professional communications and marketing department, or really even "person".

I really do sincerely hope that your future community manager provides an informal outlet for development information, hurdles, and preliminary timelines for the truly engaged community. Shifting priorities slipping deadlines are a reality regardless of the level of transparency. Hex hasn't shown the ability to manage expectations or missing said expectations without transparency, so why not try a little transparency moving forward? :)

benczi
04-14-2016, 11:32 AM
omg this thread just exploded!

As a developer myself, I understand delays completely. And you guys do a much better stuff communicating things then ... well, I'm not really sure, Hex is the only game I'm playing :P.

One thing that bothers me though, I came home today, started hex, and saw it update. That's at least two updates since Exit the dream that have no path notes.

fido_one
04-14-2016, 12:02 PM
Yeah, I can't find any details on this patch at all. I know they moved the timing bar back to the middle in draft; though my client froze completely after the first pick, locking me out for at least 5 rounds of picks before I realized what was going on to log back in.

Logged a support ticket, but it would have been really nice to have a thread to see if it is a common thing or not.

Shaqattaq
04-14-2016, 12:17 PM
Patch notes can permanently be found here: https://www.hextcg.com/patch-notes/en-us/client-patch-notes/

Ideally we'd have a link to them on our main page, but we have some features to launch and those take priority.

fido_one
04-14-2016, 12:19 PM
Patch notes can permanently be found here: https://www.hextcg.com/patch-notes/en-us/client-patch-notes/

Ideally we'd have a link to them on our main page, but we have some features to launch and those take priority.

Understood - I'll check back later to see when today's notes go up.

Thoom
04-14-2016, 01:07 PM
Patch notes can permanently be found here: https://www.hextcg.com/patch-notes/en-us/client-patch-notes/

Ideally we'd have a link to them on our main page, but we have some features to launch and those take priority.

Maybe I'm slow, but I just noticed that the polish patch is called "Exit the Dream" (because it killed the "Enter the Dream" deck). That's cute, I like it.

In the fullness of time, it would be great if we could have a full archive of historical patch notes, and not just stuff posted since the latest major update. When I played WoW, it was sometimes fun to go back and look over ancient patch notes for nostalgia value.

fido_one
04-14-2016, 01:19 PM
Maybe I'm slow, but I just noticed that the polish patch is called "Exit the Dream" (because it killed the "Enter the Dream" deck). That's cute, I like it.

In the fullness of time, it would be great if we could have a full archive of historical patch notes, and not just stuff posted since the latest major update. When I played WoW, it was sometimes fun to go back and look over ancient patch notes for nostalgia value.

Useful as well, I am less apt to submit a trouble ticket or note something on the forums with a full patch history as it helps me determine if it's my machine or a rule change/fix that I never noticed.

Yoss
04-14-2016, 01:31 PM
+1 for a full patch history.

Shaqattaq
04-14-2016, 03:37 PM
+1 for a full patch history.

There's lots of things we'd like to do, but ultimately limited resources with which to do them. It's likely that there will be a perpetual list of feature requests for this game until the end of time in the sense that no live PC game is ever "complete."

Gwaer
04-14-2016, 04:13 PM
I think on the communication front the issue is the hot and cold nature of information. Funktion (I think) really nailed it in his don't be afraid to share bad news post. Ultimately I would prefer as little info all the time as we get during bad times, or as much disclosure during bad times as we get during good times. Turning on the tap when it's looking good and turning it off suddenly when things go south is most of the issue that I see everything leading back to.

Just my 2p.

OutlandishMatt
04-14-2016, 05:03 PM
Just my 2p.

Due to conversion rates, this isn't much. HEY OOOOOOOH! Wait, wrong topic.

Yoss
04-14-2016, 06:22 PM
There's lots of things we'd like to do, but ultimately limited resources with which to do them. It's likely that there will be a perpetual list of feature requests for this game until the end of time in the sense that no live PC game is ever "complete."

While I agree in general, this particular one should be super easy. It's not even a "feature" per se. You just add a step in your process so that right before you would delete and replace the contents of the pretty patch notes page, you take the existing (old) information and add it to a text file that's displayed on some other (probably ugly) web page. It should add no more than 5 minutes to each patch notes upload, unless I'm missing something.

OTOH, someone involved with the wiki could do the same thing with a wiki page.

Shaqattaq
04-14-2016, 06:43 PM
While I agree in general, this particular one should be super easy. It's not even a "feature" per se. You just add a step in your process so that right before you would delete and replace the contents of the pretty patch notes page, you take the existing (old) information and add it to a text file that's displayed on some other (probably ugly) web page. It should add no more than 5 minutes to each patch notes upload, unless I'm missing something.

OTOH, someone involved with the wiki could do the same thing with a wiki page.

Like everything in HEX, the decision is more complicated than that.

OutlandishMatt
04-15-2016, 06:03 AM
While I agree in general, this particular one should be super easy.

I would almost guarantee we could get someone like dylannorthrup to write a script that would check the page for updates and grab it and archive it. I will check and see if he can take a stab at it.

happy_meal
04-15-2016, 10:44 AM
Nobody responds well to the types of statements as I quoted above, but I can guarantee there won't be an official date announcement for Primal Dawn on Friday. What I can say is that our internal projected date for Primal Dawn won't have moved by Friday either. Clearly Steam launch is a huge piece and we'll have a better idea once we're past that. Also, not guaranteeing a date announcement immediately after Steam Launch either. As I discussed yesterday, there are many variables affecting Primal Dawn's release date, and we'll announce it when we're confident in it.

soo this fridays release date is not official then? :P :)

knightofeffect
04-15-2016, 11:55 AM
soo this fridays release date is not official then? :P :)

Hahahahahaha, I was coming in here to be a snarky ass and quote this as well. Suck it Shaq!!!

But seriously ily William <3