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View Full Version : A legal way to cash out?



bleeding_warrior
04-10-2016, 04:09 AM
Hi guys,

First of all wanted to mention Hex is a great game and the only game so far that has kept my interest for so long. Amazing! Unfortunately as I have a small kid and time has been pressing me lately I am no longer able to allocate enough time and play regularly. Having that in mind I was wondering - is there any legal way to cash out?

Elwinz
04-10-2016, 04:41 AM
selling cards is legal not account and currency

NaryaDL0re
04-10-2016, 05:14 AM
And you wont get any support in cases of scam. So be very careful how you go about this. Best case you find someone trusted inside the community that is interested to buy everything you have for a decent discount. You shouldn't use this forum for that, but if you count everything you have with reasonable value and put it up on the HEX reddit, I m sure you can find someone as long as your offer is profitable for the other person. (sometimes you can also get someone like KingGabriel to be a middle man)

Metronomy
04-10-2016, 06:00 AM
selling cards is legal not account and currency

Except that we dont have a clear statement from HXE or Gameforge.

We have one Phenteo post saying "selling cards is ok but we do not recognize them" (which makes sense and is completely fine). People want to know if they would get banned for taking part in such deals. Possible reimbursments from HXE is not the issue for them. But that post was from 2014. The TOS changed in February 2015 and in November 2015.

2014:
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=39916&page=14&p=443851&viewfull=1#post443851

February 2015
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=40984&page=15

November 2015 (and I think latest stand):
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=46547&page=12&highlight=terms+service

In that latest thread we have Lixil who says "nothing changed".

The latest ToS reads:
1.5
The Gameforge Services are solely intended for the entertainment purposes of consumers. It is prohibited to use them for the purpose of making a gainful profit. Exceptions to this require the express, prior written consent of Gameforge.

(From section 4.3)
Under no circumstances may the user
<snip>
c) buy or sell virtual articles originating from the Gameforge Services from third parties in return for real means of payment, nor may he exchange these goods or attempt to negotiate any of the aforementioned transactions unless this is permissible in the individual case.
This also includes all actions equivalent to the aforementioned prohibited activities.

Please tell me how you guys read this.

Then we have a Gameforge employee who basically says "This is the generic TOS. We understand HEX is different and we will come back to you". So if someone from the community has something newer/better feel free to elaborate. If someone from HXE/Gameforge wants to say something even better.

Right now I think it's very foggy and I almost thinks HXE wants it to be foggy. We have Corys statement that he wants to have our collection to have value and we do have that phenteo post from 2014. We also have the fact that fiveshards and hexprimal run shops and that fiveshards gets frequently referenced from HXE. So in that sense I dont think they would ever ban people who sell cards. Still...we dont know 100%.

Poetic
04-10-2016, 06:05 AM
I think it's more so to cover them if you get scammed, do so at your own risk type thing. Selling to one of Hexprimal or Five Shards is probably safest. Selling on say eBay would probably yield the most at a slower pace.

Metronomy
04-10-2016, 06:10 AM
Again..all I want to know is: "Do I get banned when I selll cards" ?

I understand they can not reimburse or held liable in any way. Thats why Phenteo said it in the way he said it in 2014. If someone from HXE would make the exact same statement now I would have no issue. But instead after the TOS change we basically only had "read the TOS" and after asking "I cannot give legal advise on how to read the TOS".

KingGabriel
04-10-2016, 06:26 AM
They wouldn't exactly be constantly posting fiveshards/hexprimal stuff if they weren't happy with the practices of said sites including selling.

Metronomy
04-10-2016, 06:37 AM
They wouldn't exactly be constantly posting fiveshards/hexprimal stuff if they weren't happy with the practices of said sites including selling.

I agree...yet still..why not come out with a simple statement like in 2014 ? Thats all I'm asking.

I would like to repeat the statement from the gameforge employee directly:

"I’d like to take a moment to address some of the concerns that players have about the transition of the publishing responsibilities for Hex. We are currently looking at how our terms of service fits with Hex as a game and a community. Our intention is to continue to operate the game with the same values and focus that Hex Entertainment has had up until now. Gameforge uses a central Terms of Service agreement that is applied to every game we publish. One of the reasons for that is there are very strict rules that we need to follow as an EU and German company, and this ToS covers those needs directly. Having said that though, we recognize that not every game or community has the same needs. We are currently working on a set of rules that will be unique to Hex and will address our players needs as best as we can, while still complying with the laws we must adhere to. We are working on those changes right now and will keep you all informed as we progress. Given that these rules require legal time to look over them, they won’t happen overnight, but they are a very high priority for us."

I dont see any changes to the TOS compared to November last year. The special Terms and Conditions handle the purchase and use of platinum. Not what the player can do with his account or cards.

It very well may be that HXE would like to make a statement but that they are bound to the TOS handed out by Gameforge and need them to change them for their game. So their policy right now may be: Technically the TOS forbids it but we will not pursue or ban people because of card sales. Under which circumstances I still feel like they could make a statement like "We will not recognize any sales/trading done privately for real money. As such we dont feel any need to actively pursue or sanction such behaviour either.". The Code of Conduct already states that it is not allowed to advertise any such sales using the client or the official forums (which is of course completely fine).

If such a statement is still too 'hot' then at least say that the TOS are still being worked on to fit the needs of Hex. That way we know that it is not set in stone.

magic_gazz
04-10-2016, 07:39 AM
I think it's more so to cover them if you get scammed, do so at your own risk type thing. Selling to one of Hexprimal or Five Shards is probably safest. Selling on say eBay would probably yield the most at a slower pace.

Just know that there is an advantage and disadvantage selling to these sites. The advantage is your chances of getting scammed are close to 0. The disadvantage is that these sites pay a VERY low rate on your cards.

Xexist
04-10-2016, 08:03 AM
Just a note, you cannot sell gold or plat, you can however convert the gold and plat into cards (or booster packs etc) and sell those

katkillad
04-10-2016, 08:11 AM
The moment they blatantly say you can sell cards/packs, that's the moment people will hold them liable when someone gets scammed. As mentioned, they wouldn't be allowing Fiveshards to be doing the free tournaments and promotion if they had an issue with selling cards outside the game.

As mentioned, make sure you do it with someone you trust because paypal has literally no protection for sellers of digital items.

Metronomy
04-10-2016, 08:14 AM
The moment they blatantly say you can sell cards/packs, that's the moment people will hold them liable when someone gets scammed. As mentioned, they wouldn't be allowing Fiveshards to be doing the free tournaments and promotion if they had an issue with selling cards outside the game.

Except when they explcicitly say "we cannot held liable" which again...was exactly what Phenteo said in 2014. Not sure why you guys defend the silence on the topic especialy when they changed TOSto seem to be specifically prohibit such actions and a Gameforge employee even acknowledged that this needs some more clarification/changes.

katkillad
04-10-2016, 08:16 AM
Except when they explcicitly say "we cannot held liable" which again...was exactly what Phenteo said in 2014. Not sure why you guys defend the silence on the topic especialy when they changed TOSto seem to be specifically prohibit such actions and a Gameforge employee even acknowledged that this needs some more clarification/changes.

I'm not defending them, just explaining the current situation. Cory originally said we were going to have a way to cash out so... if anything I'm mildly upset that was never talked about again.

Xexist
04-10-2016, 11:28 AM
paypal has literally no protection for sellers of digital items.

That isnt true. (I think)

fido_one
04-10-2016, 11:30 AM
I'm not defending them, just explaining the current situation. Cory originally said we were going to have a way to cash out so... if anything I'm mildly upset that was never talked about again.

Did he? I know he said it would be nice to have and he may have said he'd like to make it a goal, but I don't think there was any definitive quote on the matter. Even if he did say something definitive, it is squarely in the 'hope' section of features as it is extraordinarily difficult to have a global game (or U.S. for that matter) with a cash out.

katkillad
04-10-2016, 01:37 PM
That isnt true. (I think)

I'm interested in hearing how you prove you fulfilled your end of a digital transaction if the recipient says they never received anything or the item/code doesn't work? I'm not going to get into it, but as a seller of digital items you assume the risk.

Xexist
04-10-2016, 02:05 PM
I'm interested in hearing how you prove you fulfilled your end of a digital transaction if the recipient says they never received anything or the item/code doesn't work? I'm not going to get into it, but as a seller of digital items you assume the risk.

You know what, my bad I missed the word sellers in your comment. You are right buyers are protected, and sellers are if they can prove it, which for hex is particularly difficult or impossible.

bofedy
04-10-2016, 02:21 PM
qwell you can always make paypal people go first and write they received ood and wont do charge back. i would think if they then do charge back you would win and keep the money no?

icecon
04-10-2016, 02:23 PM
HexEnt's silence in this matter says a lot. There are some things it most certainly says:

1. They see no reason to and have nothing to gain by specifically outlining what is ok and what is not.
There's some good reasons for this but, one of the biggest ones is that, just like in law, vague rules allow for arbitrary enforcement, which they want. This allows folks to casually sell cards on the side, but allows them to punish big fish if they so choose to either now or in the future. And, closely related to this "policy", they don't want to come out and draw a line and then have to backtrack from it later because of backlash or other reasons.
2. If (1) is not true, then the primary other likely reason they have not outlined it is because they intend to (eventually) change the rules. Probably to something more draconian like "you can't sell anything."
3. If neither (1) or (2) are true, then it's bureaucratic reasons like...they haven't got around to it or they need to run it by the lawyers and gameforge.

In any of these cases, you don't need to worry. Since they have not formally made statements about the rules, you can assume you won't get banned as it would be really scummy to apply new rules retroactively. Even if you are doing something larger scale, given everything that we know, they would at worst give you a temp ban.

All of this, of course, excludes stuff that everyone knows is banned, such as account and plat sales.

Metronomy
04-10-2016, 03:00 PM
I tend to agree with everything but under case 1 they just might ban you. Which in my oppinion leaves a bad feeling. I would like to believe they dont punish the small fishes if fiveshards and hexprimal run shops and they say nothing about that. But who knows.. Under 1 why not make a similar statement as in 2014. Cory made the statement that he wants our collection to have value. If we cannot sell our cards they dont have the value I was hoping for.

Given the latest statement from Gameforge I think 3 is actually the case. The thing about account and plat sales is tricky since I dont see any difference in wording in the TOS when it comes to those things. I know that there was this rule in the past and I would certainly not sell plat or accounts. I just want HXE to come out with some statement. If it is realy 1 then I cannot appreciate this at all.

Xexist
04-10-2016, 03:05 PM
I tend to agree with everything but under case 1 they just might ban you. Which in my oppinion leaves a bad feeling. I would like to believe they dont punish the small fishes if fiveshards and hexprimal run shops and they say nothing about that. But who knows.. Under 1 why not make a similar statement as in 2014. Cory made the statement that he wants our collection to have value. If we cannot sell our cards they dont have the value I was hoping for.

Given the latest statement from Gameforge I think 3 is actually the case. The thing about account and plat sales is tricky since I dont see any difference in wording in the TOS when it comes to those things. I know that there was this rule in the past and I would certainly not sell plat or accounts. I just want HXE to come out with some statement. If it is realy 1 then I cannot appreciate this at all.

well you can rest assured if they started banning people for selling cards, their sales would suffer and many people would leave (or at least never put money into the game). They could do it, but it would be the stupidest thing they have ever done.

fido_one
04-10-2016, 03:59 PM
well you can rest assured if they started banning people for selling cards, their sales would suffer and many people would leave (or at least never put money into the game). They could do it, but it would be the stupidest thing they have ever done.

Yeah, I mean if the OP has to feed his family, HexEnt will look the other way, not that it would be flagged anyways. If the OP is lying and is making tons of l00tz pretending he is selling a massive Pokemon digital collection, ban away.

Beyond whatever legalese we see, there is still going to be pragmatism. The only issue of it not being sanctified = less value when you cash out and greater risk of getting screwed with no recourse.

icecon
04-10-2016, 04:01 PM
I tend to agree with everything but under case 1 they just might ban you. Which in my oppinion leaves a bad feeling. I would like to believe they dont punish the small fishes if fiveshards and hexprimal run shops and they say nothing about that. But who knows.. Under 1 why not make a similar statement as in 2014. Cory made the statement that he wants our collection to have value. If we cannot sell our cards they dont have the value I was hoping for.

Given the latest statement from Gameforge I think 3 is actually the case. The thing about account and plat sales is tricky since I dont see any difference in wording in the TOS when it comes to those things. I know that there was this rule in the past and I would certainly not sell plat or accounts. I just want HXE to come out with some statement. If it is realy 1 then I cannot appreciate this at all.

Under (1) they won't make a statement as in 2014 because that would violate the point of (1) which is to leave things vague. And the 2014 statement still holds true, as far as anyone is concerned. LEGALLY, they can do whatever they want including banning you for just about any reason. Practically, the statements the developers have made are essentially "common law" for the game, even if they have little to no legal force in a real court. It is impossible to remove counterparty risk here, which is probably why you shouldn't put a chunk of your net worth into this or any game.

This may be a frustrating reality to us users who can get pretty invested, but we must confront and accept it.