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zolop
04-16-2016, 06:32 PM
This relates to PvE content, in particular the dungeon system and the battles in the campaign. In the dungeons it does multiply the frustration of simply playing Hex Shards of Fate. From my point of view it doesn't do anything at all to evolve or grow the transition into a Digital trading Card game.

The decks with 36%-38% resources I am getting mostly having resource starved or resource abundance with my card draws, even after multiple muligans. Now when you have only 3 lives in a dungeon to navigate it, this is where the frustration multiplies. This does not make me interested in playing HEX, in fact it turns me off from recommending it to other people and stops me wanting to play it more (or at all) during the week.

Please refrain from thinking I want the game to be easy, I want the game to be challenging and to lose only because I played horribly, not because I got resource starved or in too much abundance. If people don't want this in PvP, then just keep it in PvE... Will make a post in the suggestion forum. I do enjoy playing complicated games like sword of the stars 2, arma 3, total war games series,

If people are against this in PvP, it can be added only to PvE
At the start of a battle during a PvE playthrough, specifically the campaign battles, allow each player to seperate basic resource cards into a separate draw pile. Allow then each player to draw from the resource pile only 1 time per turn. Any cards that would modify basic resources, would let the owner of the action modify either of his digital card piles (resource and deck)

There is no good gameplay or mechanic being resource starved / abundance as I really don't see how it can play into this DTCG. Making a random chance to have a player have a complete loss not of his own doing, only frustrates the player.

Can someone explain to me how being resource starve /abundance beings a interesting gameplay mechanic to HEX? How does it evolve the game in the Digital era of our generation? How does a percentage chance of losing (due to resource abundance/starve draws), not at the fault of the player, bring enjoyment? In what way does it bring a interesting challenge to the game? Maybe I am missing something, I just really don't see it? Why do we still need this mechanic (resource abundance/starve in first and subsequent draws) in HEX?

Suggestion Link
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=48786&p=567842#post567842

primer
04-16-2016, 06:37 PM
We already get a free mulligan in PvE, I find it hard since that change to be flooded or screwed consistently.

I might have trouble 1 time in a full arena run. All I can advise is that you post the deck and someone can maybe point you in the right direction. Without knowing the deck people cant help.

hex_colin
04-16-2016, 06:40 PM
Also, you should be using 40-42% resources too. 24-25 shards depending on thresholds, etc. Unless you've got a weenie aggro deck. Charge powers exist to mitigate flood so you generally are happy with more resources that the "other" game.

bwarner
04-16-2016, 06:41 PM
This is one of those things that definitely takes some getting used to, much like those other games you talked about. I'd suggest that you give it a chance, and maybe do some research about learning good mulligan strategies and how to build decks that will have successful resource bases. It may seem right now like it is ruining the game, but I think if you give it a bit more of a chance, you'll come to realize that the resource system is a key part of the strategy of the game. You might not have control over individual draws, and you will every once in a while lose a game due to resources, but you'll also have a lot more exciting games than you would if the resource system was over-simplified.

zolop
04-16-2016, 07:00 PM
We already get a free mulligan in PvE, I find it hard since that change to be flooded or screwed consistently.

I might have trouble 1 time in a full arena run. All I can advise is that you post the deck and someone can maybe point you in the right direction. Without knowing the deck people cant help.

Even after a free muligan, subsequent draws I get the same result. To be fair though my decks run between 36-38% resources. I will try to go at 40%, but that is when I usually get more resource abundance draws. I have almost 20 cards that give me different types of resources, its a 4 color deck. About 1/3 is artifacts, including creatures.

Just wish you guys put more thought into the resource system, making it unique and evolved / designed differently / unique so that resource floods / resource starvation could not be possible, so that every game it was up to the player to win, not a old gameplay mechanic.

Not saying HEX should become faeria, but when I talk about a more in depth resource system...
https://www.faeria.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdVuWMap5lg

old Video... didn't realize the date...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4jG58Dpy4I

I do really enjoy a lot about HEX, better prices on digital cards than MTGO, going to have a Clan vault for people that want to borrow a clan deck, Be able to create a HEX community clan, have PvE content, Spinning the wheel of fate, PvE cards, Auction house, etc , this is just the one thing that I find frustrating, resource floods/resource starvations (because its not a win/lost based on skill/planning/deck-building, just on pure luck).

Side note: how is the work coming on the community features that were promised to the backers from the kickstarter a while back? Has the new work on the set of digital cards slowed the progress on the kickstarter features promised? The exciting feature for me with PvE is that it could be developed into Co-Op so I can play this game with my brother.

wolzarg
04-16-2016, 07:02 PM
That's why you get 3 lives and free mulligans if there was no "autolose" you would get 1 life no free mulligan. The double deck approach is interesting as a single encounter or dungeon when they have time to go to that length for the sake of fun or the tools make it easier but its not going to be a pve format change ever so give up on that idea right now.

primer
04-16-2016, 07:14 PM
Just wish you guys put more thought into the resource system, making it unique and evolved / designed differently / unique so that resource floods / resource starvation could not be possible, so that every game it was up to the player to win, not a old gameplay mechanic.


They wouldn't change it in Alpha, they aren't going to change it now. Just gotta deal with it.

Once again post the deck here. People will tell you why you are having problems.

hex_colin
04-16-2016, 07:18 PM
Even after a free muligan, subsequent draws I get the same result. To be fair though my decks run between 36-38% resources. I will try to go at 40%, but that is when I usually get more resource abundance draws. I have almost 20 cards that give me different types of resources, its a 4 color deck. About 1/3 is artifacts, including creatures.

Yeah, you'll need at least 26 resources to begin to run 4 colors in HEX. The fixing will improve again with Set 4.

Bottom line, you're using far too few resources, in a game that doesn't yet really support that many different thresholds in the same deck (yet!). It's not surprising you're having issues.

zolop
04-16-2016, 07:22 PM
Yeah, you'll need at least 26 resources to begin to run 4 colors in HEX. The fixing will improve again with Set 4.

Bottom line, you're using far too few resources, in a game that doesn't yet really support that many different thresholds in the same deck (yet!). It's not surprising you're having issues.

true, but its not getting specific colors issue. I will admit that does happen rarely though,


They wouldn't change it in Alpha, they aren't going to change it now. Just gotta deal with it.

Once again post the deck here. People will tell you why you are having problems.

Going to try it with 40% resources as suggested, don't need to post otherwise. Though thank you for offering help Primer!

Biz
04-16-2016, 07:28 PM
it is suboptimal gameplay, but it's not as bad in PVE

you get to abuse the free mulligan.
you can play extra resources than you would in PVP decks because the AI doesn't actually know how to play a game where card advantage might matter

Fateanomaly
04-16-2016, 07:52 PM
As your deck and deckbuilding skills gets better, resource problem becomes less of a problem. Judging whether to mulligan is a skill too. Sure you still a 0/all resource after several mulligans hand once in a while but your multiple lives will take care of it. Some players uses deck that can win even if they only played 2 resources.

Mejis
04-16-2016, 08:01 PM
As others have said, and this is in no way meant to he offensive, but this will almost certainly be down to your deck. 4 colours is hard to pull off consistently, but as Colin said, this will improve greatly with Set 4.
The free mulligan means that you should rarely ever be screwed or flooded if your deck is optimal.
Don't give up on HEX though. Have a tweak, and it's still an issue post your deck list here for everyone to help with.
Good luck :)

strawwmann
04-16-2016, 08:33 PM
PvE plays quite differently to PvP and requires some differences in approach.

In PvE you are looking at a baseline of winning well over 90% of your games against an opponent that is very weak, gets very basic plays wrong & relies predominantly on random powerful but low probability card draws/effects to win (so any adjustments on strategy need to improve on that baseline).
In PvP you are working off a baseline of 50% wins against someone who has access to the same cards, skills & play styles as you do (so a very different baseline to consider when trying to improve a deck & play style).
For example, a powerful combo that would win you on average 70% of games when it hits and loose the rest when it whiffs would be good for PvP but not for PvE (so Titian's Majesty was overpowered and banned from PvP but is not that useful in PvE).

Multi-colour decks (and much of deck-building choices) trade power (more choice of the most powerful cards from many colours) for consistency (less chance of establishing the resource base you need to run them in time).
In Arena PvE, consistency (and speed) are higher priorities than power.
The Arena meta-game is currently dominated by 1 and 2 colour aggro decks.
There is a good forum thread listing & discussing those decks (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=48471), including many budget options.

If you are having trouble with your resource base, I would recommend trying a mono aggro deck first to get a feel for how that runs (e.g. mono Ruby Orcs).
Then try a Blood/Diamond Lifegain deck, which is one of the best budget PvE options at the moment.

That doesn't mean that there aren't a ton of other ways of having fun with different decks.
Sometimes however you have to accept that those alternatives are less consistent, and you have the choice as to which you find more enjoyable - the satisfaction of pulling off some hard-to-execute combo/effect you designed a deck around, or winning consistently (you can't always do both).

WolfCrypt
04-17-2016, 03:20 AM
Yeah but what about Campaign which is what their talking bout your post only mentions Arena.

Elwinz
04-17-2016, 03:30 AM
you have one free muligan to reduce varaince a bit in pve.

Gregangel
04-17-2016, 05:05 AM
One other thing very important : card game is not just battle, the fun is also deckbuilding. And more interresting deckbulding are in game which do not dismiss ressources gestion.
You think ressource increase rng. But in fact, ressource management make the game more strategic and deckbuilding become a key factor on a skill level.

In card games without ressource in deck, deckbuilding consist only to pay attention at your cost curve and put together cards from a same theme. And RGN still very present : having the right card with the right cost at the right time.
But with ressouce management, your deckbuiding skill has a real influence on rng level.

Gregangel
04-17-2016, 05:24 AM
Last but not least, in deck ressource increase the need of card draw strategy.
Because, best case scenario, you play 2 cards a turn and you draw only one card. So turn 4 you could have an empty hand. So card draw strategy is more important .

Morality : in deck ressource don't increase RNG. Overall In-deck ressource gives more strategy value to a card game

Svenn
04-17-2016, 08:23 AM
Yeah but what about Campaign which is what their talking bout your post only mentions Arena.

Campaign is even easier because not only do you get a free mulligan, but there are talents that can help too.

In PvE I've found it hard to get resource screwed.

ev1lb0b
04-17-2016, 03:46 PM
This is how the resource system in Hex works, like it or loathe it (and there's plenty of people that loathe it) it's here to stay. Your options are quite limited....accept that the opportunity to create a decent resource system for this game has long since passed and we get to be resource flooded/screwed x% of the time no matter how well we build decks/mulligan or find a game more to your liking. Blunt I know, but it is what it is.

sukebe
04-17-2016, 04:02 PM
This is how the resource system in Hex works, like it or loathe it (and there's plenty of people that loathe it) it's here to stay. Your options are quite limited....accept that the opportunity to create a decent resource system for this game has long since passed and we get to be resource flooded/screwed x% of the time no matter how well we build decks/mulligan or find a game more to your liking. Blunt I know, but it is what it is.

This post and others seem to imply that no work was put into this system. That is not true as they have made it clear they spent a lot of time deciding on resource systems and tried all the ones that have been brought up and ultimately decided on the one we have because it was what they wanted. It is fine if you do not like the system they chose, but know that they put a lot of work into deciding to go with this system and it was not chosen quickly or without though.

Seraph_Hex
04-17-2016, 06:20 PM
the "other" game.

https://media2.popsugar-assets.com/files/2015/09/10/818/n/1922398/41fcb40e_edit_img_facebook_post_image_file_1577581 8_1441903932.xxxlarge.jpg

ev1lb0b
04-17-2016, 06:53 PM
This post and others seem to imply that no work was put into this system. That is not true as they have made it clear they spent a lot of time deciding on resource systems and tried all the ones that have been brought up and ultimately decided on the one we have because it was what they wanted. It is fine if you do not like the system they chose, but know that they put a lot of work into deciding to go with this system and it was not chosen quickly or without though.

It was also chosen knowing full well that it would cause frustration for players as it has done in Magic for many years despite the similarities/differences. It's all water under the bridge now anyway, an opportunity to break away from tradition was missed and we have (rightly or wrongly) what we have....my point remains, get used to it and play the game as the developers have made it or move on to something more palatable. Queue the flogging of the same ol' dead horse once Steam players arrive.

Chadatog
04-17-2016, 07:17 PM
They did break away from the tradition of the WOW TCG resource system that Cryptozoic developed for many years.

hex_colin
04-17-2016, 07:55 PM
They did break away from the tradition of the WOW TCG resource system that Cryptozoic developed for many years.

Which just leads to curve screw... ;)

sukebe
04-17-2016, 10:02 PM
Which just leads to curve screw... ;)

Yep, which they determined was much worse over all than shard/threshold screw.

Not to mention the resource systems that guarantee we can gain a resource each turn (like WoW tcg and Vs) actually favor the more skilled players to such a large degree that new players would stand little to no chance for the most part.

Personally, as much as I sometimes hate the system I am still in favor of how they set up Hex's resource system.

essif
04-17-2016, 11:54 PM
This has been brought up many times before, and will be brought up many times in the future :)

Hex made a decision early in the games design, to use this resource system, which unfortunately means you loose a certain amount of you games without any interaction. The system have many good sides as well, mainly interesting and flexible deckbuilding.

As new sets are released new cards, champions and mechanics will help mitigate the issue, but it will always be there in some form.

My personal wishlist for solutions is:

1) a series of cards that are playable, and can transform into ressources. I.e. a basic speed burn for ruby, that you can transform and play as a ressource instead.

2) Change mulligan system to "draw 7 cards, put one card into your deck for each mulligan"

3) A series of champions with "one-shot: pay 5 life, put a card into your deck, gain 0/1, counts as a ressource play" in addition to other ability

(All above obviously needs balance testing, especially champion power as it enables a ressource-less 1-drop deck)

Gorgol
04-18-2016, 12:35 AM
and when people start running less resources than they do now we're in the same spot as we are now

The "optimal" number of resources will absolutely be smaller than it is today. The ones who come up with the decks we all love to use will 100% cut resources from them with any change like these. Inevitably when everyone googles best hex constructed deck and gets screwed a couple times they will just run to the forums as they do now and tell the devs they need to make more changes. Its a cycle that will never end.

frexerik
04-18-2016, 01:20 AM
As long as they explain in game how many shards you should be playing, as well as not to have a deck with more than 60 cards it should be fine.

I feel like i often hear about people who use decks with more than 60 cards or 3 shards which can make the game super frustrating if you dont know what you are doing.

iSimeon
04-18-2016, 01:34 AM
Just you wait for this kind of comments and negative reviews once when HEX hits on Steam ;)

They will cry about two things:
1. shards/mana
2. pay to win

an game will be compared with Hearthstone

Fateanomaly
04-18-2016, 01:40 AM
Using the 60 minimum cards and only 1-2 shards for consistency is like basic logic. If they can't even figure that out by themselves, they wouldn't be going very far.

iSimeon
04-18-2016, 02:15 AM
Using the 60 minimum cards and only 1-2 shards for consistency is like basic logic. If they can't even figure that out by themselves, they wouldn't be going very far.

You have to understand that soon bunch of new players will come. Mainly from Heartsone where they don't even know what shards/lands are. You won't see any MtG player saying these kind of things.

starwing
04-18-2016, 04:32 AM
@zolop, as noted early, the resource problem you're having was due to poor deck construction (no offense intended). I'm curious to know how it's going now though? Did increasing the resources to 40%-42% help you?

Some resource starve/flood happens from time to time--it happens to everyone, but try to balance your deck with these potential situations in mind.

What else do you have in your deck? Perhaps we can help you get the most out of HEX by providing tips for your specific deck :cool:

dogmod
04-18-2016, 05:31 AM
Which just leads to curve screw... ;)

I am not as familiar with TCGs as some. Doesn't Hex currently have both shard and curve screw? Removing shard screw leaves you with ONLY curve screw. The fact is shard screw currently obfuscates curve screw but it is still there. Drawing all of my 1 or 2 drops is almost as bad as drawing a bunch of shards at the end game but currently I get to say "At least it wasn't a shard".

Or am I missing something.

dylannorthrup
04-18-2016, 09:24 AM
They did break away from the tradition of the WOW TCG resource system that Cryptozoic developed for many years.

To be pedantic, the WoW TCG resource system was developed by Upper Deck Entertainment (though many of the UDE folks did go on to be a part of Cryptozoic, there is a differentiation). Specifically, Mike Hummel, Danny Mandel and Brian Kibler (none of whom I believe where part of Cryptozoic, each of them having departed UDE prior to its . . . parting of ways with the WoW TCG).

Also, I have an interview with Ben Stoll (which he was kind enough to take time during the 100k Invitational to do) that's waiting on a review from HexEnt that goes in depth on the topic of the Hex resource system. While it did not change my mind significantly regarding the resource system, it does show Ben and the rest of the design team spent (and still spend) a lot of time thinking about it and the decisions they make are not made lightly.

dylannorthrup
04-18-2016, 09:39 AM
Which just leads to curve screw... ;)

Actually, I believe the concern here was more than simply "not hitting your curve". As I understand it (and I could be wrong and am happy for someone from HexEnt to correct me), the inherent flaw wasn't necessarily missing your drop, but having chosen early in the game to use a high drop as a resource, then not being able to play that high drop later in the game.

"If only I hadn't had to bury my Azgalor early on I'd have had you"

This was similarly an issue with the Vs card game (on which the WoW TCG was partly based), but was mitigated in Vs by the amount of character search in the game. . . . though this led to some teams without hard character search effectively being under powered and generic hard character search cards being very expensive/highly sought after.

Thus endeth the "Geez, Granpa, you really played games with actual cards? What was that like" portion of the conversation.

Turtlewing
04-18-2016, 10:01 AM
I am not as familiar with TCGs as some. Doesn't Hex currently have both shard and curve screw? Removing shard screw leaves you with ONLY curve screw. The fact is shard screw currently obfuscates curve screw but it is still there. Drawing all of my 1 or 2 drops is almost as bad as drawing a bunch of shards at the end game but currently I get to say "At least it wasn't a shard".

Or am I missing something.

You're correct, but are missing that the main thrust of that argument is rarely "the total amount of randomness remains the same" but that "you still end up losing games because of random draws". It's mean to counetr the idea that "games decided by your opening hand" wouldn't hapen if it weren't for the re4source system.

IMO what's wrong with the WoW TCG's resource system is that it's designed around being able to decide what card to throw away to play your other cards, and that's not a fun interaction. You can see how much people hate having to discard a card, and it's similar to having to discard a card every turn. It's fine for the subset of players who derive their fun directly from the competition aspect of gameplay who enjoy making the winning move because it's the winning move, but it pisses off casual and new players who don't want to have to "throw away" their "big guys" to play their "little guys".

Hearthstone is IMO a case study in the other issue, which is that you want a certain amount of randomness when targeting a broad audience and curve screw alone isn't up to the task. Hearthstone solves that by adding randomness to the effects of cards. Hex does it with the resource system. And hex's choice has other effects in deck-building where there tend to be soft blocks on comboing certain cards rather than Hearthstones' hard class based system (you can play kill, peek, and resurrection in the same deck, you probably shouldn't but you can).

whiteyzz
04-18-2016, 12:11 PM
I am not as familiar with TCGs as some. Doesn't Hex currently have both shard and curve screw? Removing shard screw leaves you with ONLY curve screw. The fact is shard screw currently obfuscates curve screw but it is still there. Drawing all of my 1 or 2 drops is almost as bad as drawing a bunch of shards at the end game but currently I get to say "At least it wasn't a shard".

Or am I missing something. Hearthstone, you run into a problem that the mana curve is always the same. While you can view upon it as good, it still does something to the game. Now every deck that cant run mana ramp (aka non-druids) all have the same mana curve... okay so who has the best all around curve now? Who has the best early/mid/late game creatures? It's why you see the same 4 classes over and over... Paladin...Warrior...Druid, and Mage was 90% of my games, and trying to play anything else felt like a waste of time as I was pretty much going to lose if I went up against the popular Control/Patron Warrior, Secret Paladin, Frost Mage, Mid Range Druid decks.