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View Full Version : DC Deck Building Custom Set: Justice League Dark!



t_tibke
04-04-2017, 10:29 AM
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Protected under Fair Use, as a non-profit, drafting and prototyping, educational experience for an aspiring content creator

Hi everyone, Terry Tibke here again with my biggest set of fanmade/custom DC Deck Building cards yet! The list is an entire base set, though some cards come from the other 4 sets I own (Base/HU/TT/C1). I’m going to reveal small previews at first, but overall here are set notes.

Set Focus
The set is based around several “card under hero” mechanics and “destruction” mechanics—both stemming from my versions of Zatanna and Constantine I’ve been using even before the JLD set together. You’ve seen similar things in the Arrow and Forever Evil sets, just not quite like this.

Playtesting
We’ve only gone through about 15 games worth of testing, but I have applied numerous updates to the initial draft of the set in that time. I’m fairly certain there’s plenty of modifications still to be made though, and I’d love for all of you to try it out and give your feedback.

Event Cards
I realize there are some other cards named Events that were fan-made on Boardgamegeek, and Crises, of course, DC made. My family play group didn’t really like the way everyone had to participate in the Crisis mode but never really won in the VP traditional way. So, I created a set of Event cards we tested. As we watched the animated JLD, I decided I wanted to try something of a story mode and worked through a set of Event cards that somewhat reflect the storyline from the animated JLD movie. You can see my previous Custom DC thread for some other Event cards and the rules for playing them, but essentially they're shuffled into the main deck and can be defeated by individuals to gain VP at the end of the game, rather than the whole group (though their Line-Up Ongoing effects can often affect everyone).

Hidden Objective Cards
I wanted to try out the Hidden Objectives from Crisis 3, but I didn’t like the way they worked or looked. So, I went about setting up 3 Hidden Objective cards for each of the Super Heroes you can play in JLD. The way the team’s made up, it felt perfect to have Constantine trying to come out on top at the end with some of his own Hidden Objectives. They’re fun. There are several ways we’ve tried playing with them, and I’ll list them all so you can try them out.

New Starting Heroes
You’ll see some upgrades of old starting heroes like Zatanna and Constantine. The old pair were just not strong enough to compete. Zatanna I’d made sometime last year, but I did try to build the set itself around being able to make Constantine (Crisis1) good as he was. Sadly, I ended up having to upgrade him as well. In the next few previews, I'll show you the other 6 Starting Heroes you can choose from!


Today's Preview!
Here you'll see the new Zatanna and Constantine, alongside a comparison against the old versions. This version of Constantine is much more usable, being a much stronger deck thinner than the old version. Zatanna plays with a card under Super Hero theme. I envisioned this originally as some sort of spell library.

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In addition, here are the Hidden Objectives for these two Starting Heroes. At the beginning of the game, randomly select one of these Hidden Objectives and keep it hidden from the other players--you can look at it yourself. During the game, keep this card off to the side, face down. You can refer to it as needed, and keep trying to achieve the Hidden Objective throughout the game. At the end of the game, if you completed your Hidden Objective, you gain VP as the card states!

Zatanna
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Constantine
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t_tibke
04-04-2017, 10:34 AM
Today's Preview!
After yesterday's reveal, I'm excited to show you the remaining 6 Starting Heroes for Justice League Dark! However, after the last few games, I'll admit I'm still tweaking some of them. So rather than wait, I decided to show you how those evolutions to the cards are going as we continue to playtest them at home!

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Deadman
I'll start with the one I'm most confident in--Deadman. Characters that rely on defense are notoriously underpowered, primarily because Defenses are highly sought after, and the Attack trigger isn't nearly as frequent as something like "... +1 Power for each Equipment you play..." So, I went down the route of allowing everyone's favorite intangible spirit to have his own built in defense cards. We've played some games with him outside the JLD set, and in. So far, he hasn't won. And despite all the other Starting Heroes being tested at the same time (as you'll see below, some started quite OP), he just hasn't quite seemed to be strong enough. I do think, however, that switching to option B here will give him the edge he needs to compete. It'll be more like a slightly weaker Cape and Kowl, rather than an Acrobatic Agility.

Thoughts?

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Shade
Rac Shade, the Changing Man has been tricky as well. He and Zatanna started off ridiculously OP, and have been nerfed several times down to their current state. In the beginning, I thought that every time a card was gained from the bottom, the destruction of one would keep him fairly balanced in the late game. But that only made him into a super fast deck thinning machine that allowed him to snowball too quickly. Our last several sessions used option B above, but even that only held him off for about 3 turns or so before he was ramping up. I'm fairly confident that going to option C will be just right, but haven't had a chance to play with it yet.

Thoughts?

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Black Orchid
Lastly, Black Orchid has been one of the most difficult to get right. Her first versions were far too weak, but I did like that it had some tie in to Locations like Swamp thing, as there's some suspicion about this mysterious character that she may have some connection to the Green. Ultimately though, I've gone away from that. The last few sessions we've played with option B. The first game went fine, and she fell in line with a decent VP total by end of game. However, the last game we played with her saw her acquisition of not only cards that allowed her to put cards under her (Zatanna's Black Hat), but she was luckily able to get other cards that are designed to force discards from under your Super Hero (Black Hand), preventing anyone from effectively being able to do this to her! This let her go from the weaker early game she was supposed to have, to suddenly drawing 4-6 additional cards a turn, every turn. Not good. This version was quickly banned for the next several games and now I'm not sure which of the two, option C or D, I'll land on. I'm leaning towards D at this point though.

Thoughts?

And with that said, I'm going to hold back the last 3 Starting Heroes until next time. Only 1 of them is truly new, but he's pretty innovative and really cool. I hope you're enjoying seeing these. Let me know if it's text overkill. I figure those who care about the behind the scenes design work can read, while everyone else can just look at the pictures. Feel free to comment. Thanks!

gerrymul
04-04-2017, 11:14 AM
You'd need to change the wording on Shade - you don't have a hand at the end of your turn. You would need to make it "you may destroy a card you played this turn." Beyond that, I think you are overpowering the heroes a bit (apart from Deadman). Getting free cards from the main deck is potentially a game breaker.

t_tibke
04-04-2017, 02:18 PM
You'd need to change the wording on Shade - you don't have a hand at the end of your turn. You would need to make it "you may destroy a card you played this turn." Beyond that, I think you are overpowering the heroes a bit (apart from Deadman). Getting free cards from the main deck is potentially a game breaker.

Regarding Shade, you're right. I didn't realize the rules read that way. I'll update.

As for getting free cards from the main deck, the other cards in the set manipulate what's under the Super Heroes so much that it ends up not being as huge of an advantage as it appears. I'm still weighing Zatanna though, for sure. A potential shift down to 3 free cards at the beginning could be made. Shade's trigger makes it far less frequent now as well. I think Shazam!, Cosmic Staff, Silent Armor, and Grid(IM) all help to precedent card abilities of this nature though.

Glad someone looked though and actually read what was there. I appreciate your comments.

t_tibke
04-05-2017, 10:02 AM
Today's Preview!

We'll start with revealing the Hidden Objective cards for each of the last Super Heroes revealed.

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t_tibke
04-05-2017, 10:39 AM
Today's Preview (Contd)!

I finally realized you can only post 5 images at a time, so I'm breaking this one up.

And now on to the other starting Super Heroes!

Batman and Swamp Thing
As I mentioned earlier, I tried to base several of the Events and the Super Hero make-up on the Justice League Dark animated movie. This allowed me to include Batman as part of the team, as he does tie it all back into the regular Justice League nicely. I also used Swamp Thing, who does eventually join the JLD in the comics. These two let me try to build a base set where they could thrive and not be so-so. Batman's the only character who desires a focus on Equipment, and in the set there are a whopping 9 Locations, rather than the standard 5, so Swamp Thing plays quite nicely in this space.

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Jason Blood/Etrigan
And last but not least, is Jason Blood! This Super Hero has an interesting mechanic that allows him to flip over to become Etrigan, and any cards that force you to flip over your Super Hero to nullify their abilities only make Etrigan mad and allow him to come out! There are also a few cards in the set that will trigger the transformation as well, even when another player plays them.

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Hope you enjoyed today's new cards for Justice League Dark! Tomorrow we'll start getting into the cards themselves. I'd love to hear any comments. Thanks!

unLimitedEnds
04-05-2017, 11:36 AM
What did you use to make these custom cards? They look great!

andymo24
04-05-2017, 12:08 PM
What's with Black Orchid version D being the same as Cheetah from Crisis 3?

t_tibke
04-05-2017, 01:09 PM
What did you use to make these custom cards? They look great!

Just some standard templates and fonts that can be found on BoardGameGeek, and Photoshop.

t_tibke
04-05-2017, 01:15 PM
What's with Black Orchid version D being the same as Cheetah from Crisis 3?

Wow. Completely came to this organically. Well, leaning towards C then! :)

t_tibke
04-05-2017, 01:40 PM
Today's Preview!
I wasn't sure how I was going to go about these, but I think I'll show by type, and give the list of cards for the "type of the day" that are in the set. At the end of this I'll make the set list and the print sheets of all the cards available so everyone can try them out.


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Bend Reality
One of the strongest Defenses in the set, especially if you don't mind a Weakness or two in your deck. This obviously benefits Shade, but also anyone who picks up the Spear of Destiny equipment.


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Breath of Fire
This card helps Constantine and Zatanna directly, via their abilities, but with some other card combinations, just about anyone.

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Fateful Spell
A very strong card filtering card. One copy in the deck.

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Incorporeal
Several players have said they hate this card. I tend to reply, "it only cost 1". It is designed to work well with Deadman, as he doesn't mind getting another Defense in his next hand. Early game it's not hard to get at least +1 Power off of it, but later game after deck thinning it might be too weak as you often get 0. It needs to stay 1 cost, but suggestions or evaluations?

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Power Circle
In the vein of Forcefield, I like the flavor of this card. It can be quite useful as well. Benefits Constantine's destructive ability especially.

t_tibke
04-05-2017, 01:43 PM
Today's Preview (Contd)!

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Regrowth
This card helps pile others into the destroyed pile for some of the Hidden Objectives, while allowing you to nab a nice lower cost buy. It's pretty good for Black Orchid, Swamp Thing, and Constantine.

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Runecasting
This set, you'll notice by the end of the reveals, does play around with being slightly cooperative, without being directly cooperative. Very much like the Justice League Dark themselves. Runecasting is an X-Ray vision with upside for other players.

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Justice League Dark - Super Power List
I also included the list of all Super Powers included in the set, and quantities of each (though I do see several old text descriptions for the cards in this list). Several cards you'll recognize from other sets. I thought about printing some of those (like Super Strength) with more flavorful art in some cases, but that really seemed like a waste of time for now.

Alright. That's it for today! Hope you've enjoyed! Leave comments and feedback and I'll be delighted. Ciao.

t_tibke
04-05-2017, 02:27 PM
Wow. Completely came to this organically. Well, leaning towards C then! :)

I take that back. I think I was initially looking at some cards with the 'buy 2 a turn' trigger, and probably saw Cheetah. I ended up trying that on Shade for his trigger, but then copied the same trigger to Black Orchid and happened to use the latter part which was on another Raven card I worked on a while back. So pretty organic, but there's some root there somewhere :)

andymo24
04-05-2017, 02:47 PM
Bend Reality - Did you make up the card Spear of Destiny? And you aren't sharing it with at this time?

Breath of Fire - is it +4 power if you destroyed a card or put a card under your Hero, or is it 'you may put a card under your hero if you destroyed a card this turn', or is it 'You may put a card under your hero. If you choose not to, +4 power if you have destroyed a card this. Otherwise, +2 Power.'

Fateful Spell - do you place one of the three you drew or any card in your hand?

Power Circle - the use of the word "return" in the defense effect implies that a card in your discard pile was already destroyed in the current turn, which would be an opponent's turn given that you are being attacked (and first appearance attacks aren't during a turn). I don't think the way it is worded says to do what I think you are intending it to do. What are you intending, gain a card the current player destroyed? An Ongoing card that you can discard to recover a card you destroyed from your discard pile this turn?

Regrowth + New York City = I want

t_tibke
04-05-2017, 08:18 PM
Wow. Completely came to this organically. Well, leaning towards C then! :)


Bend Reality - Did you make up the card Spear of Destiny? And you aren't sharing it with at this time?

Breath of Fire - is it +4 power if you destroyed a card or put a card under your Hero, or is it 'you may put a card under your hero if you destroyed a card this turn', or is it 'You may put a card under your hero. If you choose not to, +4 power if you have destroyed a card this. Otherwise, +2 Power.'

Fateful Spell - do you place one of the three you drew or any card in your hand?

Power Circle - the use of the word "return" in the defense effect implies that a card in your discard pile was already destroyed in the current turn, which would be an opponent's turn given that you are being attacked (and first appearance attacks aren't during a turn). I don't think the way it is worded says to do what I think you are intending it to do. What are you intending, gain a card the current player destroyed? An Ongoing card that you can discard to recover a card you destroyed from your discard pile this turn?

Regrowth + New York City = I want


Breath of Fire reads: +4 power if you destroyed a card or +4 Power if you put a card under your Hero. Otherwise, if you didn't do either, +2 Power.'

Fateful Spell is intended to place one of the three you drew on top, but I suppose the wording doesn't quite specify that. I can adjust the wording.

Power Circle's upper section works when played, then becomes an Ongoing (like Forcefield). But you're right. The Defense isn't worded to do what was intended: A card you can discard to recover a destroyed card (usually another player's since you'll be avoiding an Attack), because it happens between turns. I suppose I'd have to make the change to: "... If you do, you may gain a card from the destroyed pile if it was put there since the end of a turn."

And what happens in New York, stays in New York? :D Yeah, that would be strong.

andymo24
04-06-2017, 06:36 AM
I suppose I'd have to make the change to: "... If you do, you may gain a card from the destroyed pile if it was put there since the end of a turn."


Tracking who destroyed what and when would become very tedious. Maybe make it say, "... If you do, you may gain a card from the destroyed pile that was destroyed after the end of your last turn." Or the start of your last turn. Or only the current player's or previous player's turn. Do you want a FAA to be able to trigger the defense benefit?

t_tibke
04-06-2017, 06:43 AM
Do you want a FAA to be able to trigger the defense benefit?

I did yes, as quite a few destroy effects result from FAA's. Wording is getting ugly though. But maybe we're going about it wrong by stating turn specifics. Just thought of this...

"Defense: Discard this card to avoid an Attack. If you do, you may gain a card from the destroyed pile that was destroyed by the Attack."

If you're using the Defense half of the card at all, it would've HAD to come from an Attack, so this still gets us the same result. Agree?

andymo24
04-06-2017, 11:57 AM
You still have not said what exactly you want the defense benefit to be. If you want it to be to gain a card destroyed by the defended attack then

"Defense: You may discard this card from play to avoid an Attack. If you do, you may gain a card destroyed by that Attack."

I think that's pretty succinct and should override any timing issues. It is key to remember that all defenses resolve before the attack hits any player who didn't defend, so a Stargirl couldn't put a card destroyed by the defended attack on the bottom of the main deck. So this defense would be waiting to take effect till after everyone else is hit, and anyone hit will know that you can gain what they destroy so that might change what they destroy, if they have a choice.

t_tibke
04-06-2017, 12:58 PM
Today's Preview!
Today we'll be taking a look at the new Equipment in the set. While many are not super exciting, most of these are mystical and magical artifacts encountered by Constantine or owned by other members of the JLD.


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Blood's Armor
This is the ancient armor of Jason Blood, worn by Etrigan, or something between the two. If a player plays this, Jason Blood is flipped over. Note that Etrigan, on the other hand, is not.

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Books of Magic
This is Tim Hunter's Books of Magic, who plays no part in the JLD movie, but takes a fairly important role in one comic arc.

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Dreamstone
The Dreamstone is central to the JLD movie, Ritchie Simpson, and the Super-Villain, Destiny. The Main Deck and Line-Up filtering helps you get to the cards you truly need. This was originally far more convoluted but it was annoying to play, so was simplified.

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M-Vest
The Meta Vest, or Madness Vest, is the primary weapon of Shade. It's capable of all sorts of things, so I gave you the ability to choose from several. Just don't spend too long choosing which one. Nobody likes a slow-player!

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Skeleton Key
One of the little trinkets Constantine happens to have on him. This helps retrieve Equipment he's destroyed with his ability.

t_tibke
04-06-2017, 01:02 PM
Today's Preview (contd)!

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Spear of Destiny
Something of an Equipment Bizarro.

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Sword of Etrigan
There are 3 copies of this in the set, so its one of the bread and butter Equipment cards. The inclusion of the Demon Etrigan Villain card, and the Jason Blood Hero card, tie in with this and Blood's Armor. It also allows you to play some of the cards you've ended up having to stuff under your Super Hero with no way to get them out. And again, turns Jason Blood into Etrigan.

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Zatanna's Black Hat
A nice under-costed +3 Power for 3 cost. It has the drawback of putting an unknown card under your Super Hero. Good thing Zatanna's good at playing those cards.


Justice League Dark - Equipment List
Here's the list of all Equipment included in the set, and quantities of each. Several you'll recognize from other sets, especially lots of Batman related cards, including Utility Belts and Batarangs galore. These are here for Batman to really get up to speed and going with the Equipment. And if the other players try to hose him, there's always his Hidden Objective: Resourceful Adaptation to help out with that.

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Alright, that's it for now! A lot of these one off copies with high cost are tough to evaluate, but feel free to give feedback based on other cards with similarities or same cost to power ratios.

t_tibke
04-06-2017, 03:01 PM
You still have not said what exactly you want the defense benefit to be. If you want it to be to gain a card destroyed by the defended attack then

"Defense: You may discard this card from play to avoid an Attack. If you do, you may gain a card destroyed by that Attack."

I think that's pretty succinct and should override any timing issues. It is key to remember that all defenses resolve before the attack hits any player who didn't defend, so a Stargirl couldn't put a card destroyed by the defended attack on the bottom of the main deck. So this defense would be waiting to take effect till after everyone else is hit, and anyone hit will know that you can gain what they destroy so that might change what they destroy, if they have a choice.


Power Circle's upper section works when played, then becomes an Ongoing (like Forcefield). But you're right. The Defense isn't worded to do what was intended: A card you can discard to recover a destroyed card (usually another player's since you'll be avoiding an Attack), because it happens between turns.

I believe I answered Power Circle's intention way back in the above quote. Still, yes, your wording looks even more succinct, and I like it. If they know what they're destroying can be gained by the player who uses the Power Circle, I have no problem with that.

Should end up like this then:
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t_tibke
04-07-2017, 08:34 AM
Today's Preview!

Today we reveal all the Hero cards in Justice League Dark! These are always one of the funnest to make, right? As the JLD roster fluctuates some, several members just ended up here in Hero land instead of as actual playable Super Heroes. I may create some other Super Heroes later, but for now I wanted to just start w/ 8.

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Alba Garcia
This card has been adjusted a few times to be an aid to Black Orchid, the Super Hero. Depending on how her ability ends up, this may need another adjustment again to provide better utility. As a side note, I love the various incarnations of Black Orchid. There's not a TON of art out there for her though.

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Andrew Bennett
The lead of I, Vampire helps out the JLD on a few occasions after getting drug out of purgatory. One of the destruction cards, this one's pretty valuable and flexible at its cost.


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Changing Man
A Defense card with the option to gain a Weakness for additional benefit. Maybe should've used this mechanic more, as there aren't a LOT of cards that give out Weaknesses.

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Frankenstein
This is a rework of the VP token version of Frankenstein, which wouldn't play well w/ this set. I've never played any FE, but the mechanics of the VP tokens seem cool but need to be at a critical mass for the set to work.

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Gypsy
With all this talk about between turns lately, it makes it tricky to have things come back to you at the end of a particular phase if you want the First Appearance Attack effects to trigger them. I took a look back at the rulings to make sure I'm clear now, but I may need to rewrite this card. Also, Gypsy isn't involved w/ JLD at all, but I did include a handful of occult related characters overall that could easily have been involved if the series had continued... and been better.

t_tibke
04-07-2017, 09:02 AM
Today's Preview (contd)!

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Mindwarp
As with several oddities in the writing, Mindwarp joins the team in the first few issues, then sort of just leaves inexplicably. In any case, another card that's a cheap Hero to get those Bat-Signals going, who gets the sometimes bonus of an extra card.

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Ritchie Simpson
Several of the cards in this set were difficult to chose whether to make them Hero or Villain cards. If you've seen the animated JLD movie, you understand why Ritchie was one of those. If not, I won't spoil it. And as far as I know, this is NOT actually Ritchie Simpson art, but it looked a lot like him, so I used it. This 2 cost card can occasionally snag you an extra card as a nice bonus to simply drawing a card.

4484
The Ragman
I really like the character of the Ragman. Very much an occult sort of character, but he didn't have any involvement w/ the main JLD series. He easily could have though. This is something of a High-Tech Hero modeled card with the right flavor for the Ragman.

4485
Tim Hunter
My kids straight up call him Harry Potter every time. Tim opens the Books of Magic and he and Zatanna are teleported away to Epoch in the series. This card is a cheap Hero that helps you draw the best of 2 on top of your deck. It can be used to help set up Constantine, Runecasting, Nanda Parbat--all sorts of utility.

Hero Card List - JLD
Here's the quantities and list of other Hero cards included in the set from other sets.

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Hope you enjoyed the Hero reveals. As always, give them those critical eyes of yours and I'm open to feedback. Thanks!

t_tibke
04-09-2017, 09:23 PM
Today's Preview!
Hi all! Wasn't sure I'd get one in tonight, but here you go--the Locations included in the JLD set. Short and sweet.


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Epoch
This city has evolved its technology to where it cuts off magic and hunts all magic users. The Network Enforcers roam these lands. A nice, regularly usable Location.


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House of Secrets
The counterpart to the House of Mystery.Draw an extra card if you're playing extra cards.


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Nanda Parbat
No one likes this card. It may just need a full rework for the JLD set version, as the other version comes from a Crisis set and also does something slightly different. Thoughts?


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Shadowcrest
This is the mansion long owned by the Zatarra family. Thus, very helpful for Zatanna.


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Slaughter' Swamp
This is Swamp Things main pad. He hangs out here "just outside of Gotham" at times. Clearly this benefits Swamp Thing, but really anyone with multiple locations.

t_tibke
04-09-2017, 09:25 PM
Today's Preview (Contd)!


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The Black Room
The Black Room at ARGUS holds all sorts of artifacts of the occult. Constantine was promised a peek. The card can be quite strong with Regrowth's going, and Constantine's ability in gear.

Justice League Dark - Location List
Here's the list of all Locations included in the set, and quantities of each. Several you'll recognize from other sets, like The Rot and Gotham City, for a total of 9 Locations in the set. This ensures Swamp Thing gets value every time.

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Alright, I'm off to bed! Thank you all for the comments you've made so far. I hope to apply everyone's feedback where able, before final release of all of these in a printable bundle. G'night!

t_tibke
04-10-2017, 11:53 AM
Today's Preview!
By the end of this week we should have all of the set revealed!

I will say that we've hit probably 30 playtest games at this point, and I'm still having trouble with finding a Black Orchid that isn't too OP or UP, but stays pretty consistent. If anyone has any analytical commentary on these, feel free to share.

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On to the Villains!

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Black Alice
This card has changed a couple of times, as it's at a nice flexible place to be able to adjust to changes made elsewhere. Black Alice absorbs powers from people temporarily, so there are quite a few ways to flavor that into the card.


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Black Boris
One of the cards that forces a card under a Super Hero. He's taken into employ by Nick Necro and/or Felix Faust during the comic series.


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Blackbriar Thorn
It's a Brother Blood with a potential boost capability.


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Black Hand
No, I didn't purposely go with a "black" theme. There just happen to be quite a few occult related villains with black in their name! One of the cards that forces cards out from under your Super Hero.

t_tibke
04-10-2017, 11:56 AM
Today's Preview (contd)!

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Demon
So many sorts of demons in JLD. This card can be pretty decent for a 1 cost card. But its strength is in collecting all 3 for a total of 9 VP at the end. The card is best early game, but also Deadman tends to hold onto Vulnerabilities so its good for him a little more so.

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Dr. Mist
I had a whole series of this "Line-Up Ongoing" mechanic made, but decided not to include too many in a set with Events. This is another one of those cards you're never quite sure to make as a Hero or Villain.

4502
Gentleman Ghost
Another cheap Villain card. I made this guy a while back before I realized there was a Super-Villain of him out there. This art was too awesome to pass up. I like the effect used on the card though, regardless as long as there's not too much of it going on.

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Klarion Bleak
The Witch Boy is a pretty solid card that can be quite strong, more so for Deadman, or someone who's been loaded up with Weaknesses. Makes bad hands better.

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Network Enforcer
These patrol the city of Epoch, hunting magic (which pretty much falls into the Super Power category).

t_tibke
04-10-2017, 11:59 AM
Today's Preview (contd)!

4506
Non
After the Death of Magic arc, the JLD series fell apart for me. The team spends most of its time trapped floating around in the House of Mystery, with even a sudden and unexpected jump of 5 years forward. Non appears in one of these out of time, out of space, end of time, beginning of time, zones.


4507
Papa Midnite
The sometimes foe, sometimes friend, of Constantine. This is one of the relatively low number of cards that bestows Weaknesses in the set. A thing I MIGHT need to adjust.

Justice League Dark - Villain List
Here's the list of all Villains included in the set, and quantities of each. Several you'll recognize from other sets, but all are occult and magical related. Some would've made excellent additions to the JLD comic series.

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t_tibke
04-11-2017, 05:18 PM
Today's Preview!
I debated on whether to show the Super-Villains last or the Events last. Still debating, even as I type. Let's go with the Events today!

Here are the Event rules:
1. Randomly select 8 Events and shuffle them into the Main Deck.
2. If an Event is revealed when you fill the Line-Up at the beginning of the game, reshuffle it into the Main Deck and fill the Line-Up as normal.
3. If an Event enters the Line-Up during any player's first turn, shuffle it into the Main Deck and refill the Line-Up.
4. When an Event is revealed after this, it enters the Line-Up and its effects resolve or go into effect. Event Attacks cannot be Defended.
5. If another Event is revealed, it replaces (goes on top of) the Event currently in the Line-Up.
6. When an Event is defeated, if there are other Events under it, the revealed Event goes back into effect without its Attack resolving a second time. Targets previously chosen are still the Target, for example.
7. If an Event is revealed during any other action (i.e. card gained from bottom of the Main Deck), it is set aside until the action resolves, then is shuffled back into the Main Deck.
8. Events cannot be destroyed.
9. When an Event says "... you may" it means the Event is allowing you to do that action. When an Event says "...on your turn" it means you must do that action on your turn via your own cards/abilities/effects.
10. When you defeat an Event, keep it beside your Super Hero until the end of the game. Then you may add the VP the Event provides into your VP total.

If you've not watched the Justice League Dark animated movie, I recommend it (DC plug, thank me later DC). These Events roughly outline the story. CAUTION: SPOILERS BELOW! Just focus on looking at the cards if you'd rather not know what happens in the movie.

4528
Visions Of Evil
People have begun to see visions of evil demons and creatures where none exist, where normal humans exist. Killings have been the result, and Batman and the Justice League don't quite know what to do about it.


4527
Unleashed
Constantine is attempting to retrieve the Dreamstone from some demons in a card game, along with Jason Blood. Things go sour, and Constantine forces Jason to unleash the Demon Etrigan to help him get the Dreamstone. They do, and it's sent to the House of Mystery for safekeeping. Jason, however, is not happy.

Jason Blood tends to benefit from Villains in the Line-Up. This card helps create that occurrence.

4526
Possessed
Through a series of events where possession is involved, Deadman begins to pull together Batman, Constantine, and Zatanna.

4514
Dark Heroes Rise
After meeting at the House of Mystery with Black Orchid (who is absolutely not portrayed as Black Orchid like she is in the comics, and is very very minor in this movie), the dark heroes form something of an alliance.

I like to include an Event or two that truly help everyone. Then the tricky part is, "who's going to take it away from everyone else?" And who's going to take it before another Event replaces it?

4525
Secrets Of The Mind
After asking Ritchie Simpson, old ally of Constantine, to track down some clue as to what's causing all the strange visions, Constantine and Zatanna enter some poor sap's mind to further track the trail of who might be doing it.

t_tibke
04-11-2017, 05:34 PM
Today's Preview (contd)!

4516
Drive Off The Reapers
When the JLD returns to Ritchie Simpson's place, they find that his cancer is beginning to overtake him and the reapers are outside. They drive them off and rescue Ritchie, and find Jason Blood suspiciously fleeing the scene. They return Ritchie to the House of Mystery where Black Orchid is instructed to take care of him.

4524
Bad Manners
The suspicion grows that Felix Faust has been causing it. To find him, they employ the help of Swamp Thing. Though, John Constantine threatens him to help first. Zatanna patches things up by asking.


4517
Impose On A Sorcerer
Swamp Thing agrees to transport the JLD to the hidden tower of Felix Faust, because he can sense it with the powers of the green. The JLD attack Faust's tower.

4529
Arcane Exhaustion
In the battle, Zatanna loses control and kicks serious butt with her magic. It exhausts her though, and they discover it isn't Faust who's behind it all. They return to the House of Mystery as fast as possible.


4520
The Dreamstone Betrays
Ritchie Simpson was after the Dreamstone all along, and has been the one orchestrating things to get inside the House of Mystery to get it. However, the Dreamstone has a true master, and it betrays Ritchie and unleashes the might of Destiny (some would call him Dr. Destiny).

t_tibke
04-11-2017, 05:36 PM
Today's Preview (contd)!

4521
A Trojan Spirit
Through a clever plan, Etrigan, Constantine, and Deadman infiltrate Destiny's force field, and take him down.

This card gives a whopping 7 VP, but you must give your defeated Super-Villain to another player in order to defeat the Event. If you play your cards right, both players tend to end up with a good deal. Also, if you're Deadman, this card will let you pull a few extra Vulnerabilities to use as Defenses.

And those are the Justice League Dark Events! The only debate I still have is probably one that Cryptozoic had when designing Crisis cards. Do the Events need their own separate pile, since adding it to the Line-Up reduces the 5 options typically available for purchase? Possibly. I need to test it both ways.

Tomorrow we'll see the final batch of cards, the Super-Villains! Thank you all for the feedback you've provided so far. It's been a great help.

t_tibke
04-12-2017, 08:08 AM
Today's Preview

Alright, this is it! The last cards to reveal for the Justice League Dark set! I'll release the full set list as an Excel sheet soon and the print sheets as well. We've still got some outstanding questions though on Black Orchid, a Zatanna adjustment, and a few other rewordings. I'll make sure those make it into the print sheets properly.

4533
Felix Faust
This is the JLD set's Felix Faust. I realize there's another promo Faust, but this one is designed to be the lead off Super Villain. It's simple, and is a card that makes sure there's always some amount of card placement under Super Heroes.

4531
Destiny
This is the final Super-Villain--the big boss man. It's been suggested I can make his cost higher, and that might be true. I tend to play with a group of 4 and he starts at 13 unless anyone defends that first attack. I may bump him up but he's usually defeated around 18 to 20 or so.

4530
Cain
Cain is said to be the first vampire, and enemies with Andrew Bennett. This card is another method of playing cards from under your Super Hero.

4532
Enchantress
In the comic, Enchantress is the first super-villain the JLD faces after June Moon is separated from Enchantress and things go wild. This card tends to be pretty easy if she shows up early game, while later she can be strong.

4535
Floronic Man
A bad fellow, and enemy of Swamp Thing, the Floronic Man is a card I included that deals with Locations.

t_tibke
04-12-2017, 08:25 AM
Today's Preview (contd)!

4536
Nick Necro
Nick is one of the people who brought Constantine and Zatanna together, unwittingly. Then things go south and he now hates them. Nick deals with similar mechanics to Zatanna and the under the hero theme.


4537
Pralaya
A goddess. Pralaya is a very powerful card to grab, as she lets you put her under your Super Hero to defeat an Event. If you've got a good engine going for putting her under and taking her back out, you can really clean up on Events--and if you're Jason Blood or Batman, complete your Hidden Objectives easier (Surrounded by Foes and Clues Connected).

4538
Solomon Grundy
This is actually a rework of the Solomon Grundy from X1, which now has an Attack as well.

4539
The Blight
I just remembered, this card is just an alternate art reprint of the Blight in C3. Carry on. It's a nasty and powerful card though.

JLD Card List - Super-Villains
Here's the list of the Super-Villains to include in the set. Several supernatural/occult villains from other sets also appear here.

4540

t_tibke
04-12-2017, 07:45 PM
Just thought I'd show everyone the money shot of tonight's Justice League Dark game setup!

4541

t_tibke
04-13-2017, 03:34 PM
Rather than try to post in two different places, I'm going to go ahead and just steer you all right over here to my link at BoardGame Geek where you can grab all the print sheets for the Justice League Dark set!

Looking forward to all of your feedback and reports on playtesting sessions (even you Cryptozoic guys if you have the burning desire to do so! You know you want to :))

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/25619872#25619872

Carthain
04-14-2017, 06:55 AM
As for getting free cards from the main deck, the other cards in the set manipulate what's under the Super Heroes so much that it ends up not being as huge of an advantage as it appears. I'm still weighing Zatanna though, for sure. A potential shift down to 3 free cards at the beginning could be made. Shade's trigger makes it far less frequent now as well. I think Shazam!, Cosmic Staff, Silent Armor, and Grid(IM) all help to precedent card abilities of this nature though.
They set the precedent for those card abilities sure -- but as something that you have to pay for if you're able to when they come up in the lineup (or villain stack) and then have to draw.

Having an always-available hero ability is a different matter. Shade(c) still seems like he'd be overpowered.

For Jason Blood -- I like the flipping between him and Etrigan ... but doesn't Jason always flip any turn that there's 1 or more villains in the line up?

andymo24
04-14-2017, 12:47 PM
For Jason Blood -- I like the flipping between him and Etrigan ... but doesn't Jason always flip any turn that there's 1 or more villains in the line up?

Yeah, you'll have no power at the start of your turn, so the 4 power condition wouldn't matter. That does seem OP. Maybe your hand should have to be empty and you have 4 power or less? And if you buy the SV could you then flip over if you have no power and there's a villain in the lineup? Can you do it twice in one turn? Then can you activate Etigran's ability twice in one turn, like they reset on every flip?

I also thought 5 was too much for Zatanna and Shade should probably be two of the same non-starter card type. To give Deadman a boost, maybe also let his ability destroy a card in your hand or discard pile. Also, normal Batman and other such simple Heroes are boring and possibly OP. I'm surprised you didn't make a more imaginative Justice League Dark version of Batman, and Swamp Thing, but Swamp Thing is probably alright.

You could also implement event spacing in the main deck if you wanted to. Divide the main deck into different sized piles and then shuffle event cards into those piles, then stack the piles. And set the initial lineup and Zatanna cards before shuffling in event cards.

Carthain
04-14-2017, 01:10 PM
Yeah, you'll have no power at the start of your turn, so the 4 power condition wouldn't matter. That does seem OP. Maybe your hand should have to be empty and you have 4 power or less? And if you buy the SV could you then flip over if you have no power and there's a villain in the lineup? Can you do it twice in one turn? Then can you activate Etigran's ability twice in one turn, like they reset on every flip?
I feel like it should be "at the end of your turn, if there is a villain in the line up and you generated less than 4 power, flip to Etrigan." So, when there's a villain around, and you can't muster the power to beat him up that turn ... then you get to flip.


... Shade should probably be two of the same non-starter card type.
My feeling about this as well.

Haven't had much chance to absorb the other cards yet.

andymo24
04-14-2017, 03:01 PM
I also feel like Constantine is way OP. Basically automatic +2 every turn and destroying all your starters early game. But normal Constantine is just too weak. Maybe add "if it's cost is zero, gain a weakness." Maybe he works with this version of DCDB and the other heroes - I'm just thinking generally across all my play experience.

t_tibke
04-14-2017, 08:45 PM
...
Having an always-available hero ability is a different matter. Shade(c) still seems like he'd be overpowered.

For Jason Blood -- I like the flipping between him and Etrigan ... but doesn't Jason always flip any turn that there's 1 or more villains in the line up?

Shade's ability triggers a very reasonable number of times in a game now. I think with everyone's feedback he's come to a pretty balanced place. Feel free to test him out with the set and see if you still agree. And definitely make note from the print sheets that his ability now reads:

If you played 2 or more Non-Starter card types on your turn, destroy a card you played this turn. At the end of your turn, put the bottom card of the Main Deck into your hand.

4544

Jason Blood does not flip every turn, no. After the wording adjustments that were made based on feedback, he was even slightly underpowered because he doesn't flip on the turn he has the 4 power or less, but at the end of the turn. THus, the return to +2 Power while you're Etrigan. And you're forgetting that the defeat of a Super-Villain flips him back to Jason Blood as well. Again, note the changes that were made to both:

45424543

t_tibke
04-14-2017, 08:54 PM
...
Also, normal Batman and other such simple Heroes are boring and possibly OP. I'm surprised you didn't make a more imaginative Justice League Dark version of Batman, and Swamp Thing, but Swamp Thing is probably alright.

... set the initial lineup and Zatanna cards before shuffling in event cards.

As a little background, part of the initial challenge for me was to see what Batman would operate like in a completely different set where no-one specifically wanted Equipment the way he does. Also, to beef up the #s of lower cost Equipment so that he can thrive. Try him out here, he's quite fun to play. The other interesting thing about him are his new Hidden Objective cards. Each one of these can give a different focus to some of your gameplay during the game.

And Swamp Thing. Again, I knew Swamp Thing could be way more fun to play and thrive in a set the way this one's designed. There are 9 total locations in the set, and several new ones--Slaughter Swamp especially. Again, also, with the flavor of his Hidden Objectives, you'll see a whole different way to look at him.

The Zatanna cards and Line-Up definitely should be handled before Events are shuffled in, you're right. I'll amend this to the Event rules. Good idea.

t_tibke
04-14-2017, 08:59 PM
I also feel like Constantine is way OP. Basically automatic +2 every turn and destroying all your starters early game. But normal Constantine is just too weak. Maybe add "if it's cost is zero, gain a weakness." Maybe he works with this version of DCDB and the other heroes - I'm just thinking generally across all my play experience.

+2 every turn? That's a +1. And yes, he does thin your deck eventually, but you start with 10. That's at least 10 turns if you're destroying 1 starter a turn with his ability--and that's assuming you hit a starter on the top of your deck each time. Try him out with the set and let me know what you think.

4545

andymo24
04-16-2017, 09:48 PM
+2 every turn? That's a +1. And yes, he does thin your deck eventually, but you start with 10. That's at least 10 turns if you're destroying 1 starter a turn with his ability--and that's assuming you hit a starter on the top of your deck each time. Try him out with the set and let me know what you think.

4545

I'm saying you flip a punch, that's +1, then another +1 for his ability - basically +2 every turn.

I'm just offering my thoughts, very excited to give this a shot. Hopefully this week.

For Etrigan, do you get to choose when to get the +2 and draw, or is it automatic and the first thing you do during your turn?

t_tibke
04-17-2017, 06:49 AM
I'm saying you flip a punch, that's +1, then another +1 for his ability - basically +2 every turn.

I'm just offering my thoughts, very excited to give this a shot. Hopefully this week.

For Etrigan, do you get to choose when to get the +2 and draw, or is it automatic and the first thing you do during your turn?

Ah, I get ya.

For Etrigan it's just on, so like Vandal Savage, you just have the +2 Power whenever your turn starts. The drawing occurs when you have the +2 Power, so that happens at the start of your turn too.

andymo24
04-17-2017, 06:50 AM
For this latest version of Shade, are you supposed to end up with 5 or 6 cards in your hand after gaining the card off the bottom?

This may be a question for the Cryptozoic engine designers like Matt Hyra. How would Jason Blood / Etrigan interact with Captain Cold's FAA or other cards that cause you to flip your Superhero until a specified time or event? Do you keep flipping as normal, and would you flip him again when CC is defeated, or is he no longer allowed to flip?

t_tibke
04-17-2017, 08:31 AM
For this latest version of Shade, are you supposed to end up with 5 or 6 cards in your hand after gaining the card off the bottom?

For the latest version of Shade, you'll destroy a card from your previous hand, draw a new hand, and gain the card off the bottom. Yes, you'll end up with 6 cards drawn. With the power triggering far less frequently for 2 non-starter card types played, we felt the extra card wasn't overkill.




This may be a question for the Cryptozoic engine designers like Matt Hyra. How would Jason Blood / Etrigan interact with Captain Cold's FAA or other cards that cause you to flip your Superhero until a specified time or event? Do you keep flipping as normal, and would you flip him again when CC is defeated, or is he no longer allowed to flip?

You can imagine that with so many cards, and just a small group like mine, we've not tested the set outside of the JLD set itself yet. For our own purposes, there are several events and Super-Villains that cause flips. In those cases, he flips when instructed to as normal--whether this be to the Etrigan side or the Jason Blood side. There have been times where Jason Blood flipped to Etrigan at the end of the turn, flipped back due to a Super-Villain defeat, then flipped back again due to an Event trigger, all before it was the Jason Blood player's turn again.

andymo24
04-17-2017, 04:24 PM
I didn't want to spoil the game for myself by reading through all the cards... but I started reading the events. As DCDB has grown and developed, we've all realized that painfully explicit card text is key to avoiding confusion (see the 5 threads of specific clarification). I'm seeing a few event cards that it looks like the obvious intention is implied, but explicitly and as-written, it could be abused or isn't clear. My group doesn't play Crisis at all either, so that may cause some questions for me as well. My apologies in advance.

All of these "TO DEFEAT: You may..." cards read to me, and based on your event rule explanations, that you would pay the cost, buy it, and then have the option of doing the "You may..." text. I think you mean that in order to defeat a card like Unleashed, you would pay 3 power, and you must also discard a Hero. Otherwise, what's the point of just discarding a Hero?

Arcane Exhaustion - the way this reads, you would just need 2 power to buy it, so you could play your whole hand, and then discard your hand (which is empty) and draw a card, and you beat it. Is the intention to make the player discard his hand before playing any cards, and/or before activating any Hero abilities or ongoing card effects? Or are you rewarding the player who buys it by essentially just letting him draw a card?

A Trojan Spirit - again, I think you need to use 'must' instead of 'may' unless giving away super villains is supposed to be helpful somehow.

Drive Off the Shadows - I'll have to check a recent rule book for end of turn sequence. I think this attack hits the player whose turn is ending, after he draws a new hand, so he could defend. "TO DEFEAT: ...destroy all Weaknesses in the Target's hand or discard pile." So it's hand OR discard pile, not both? It looks like the buyer gets to choose, and I would assume it follows other hand or discard pile rules, if either the hand or discard pile has no weaknesses, it's not a valid target and the other must be chosen.

Impose on a Sorcerer - "Super Power effects are all replaced with +1 Power." Does it replace all game text with "+1 Power", so a Kick becomes +1 power, or does it just replace effect text, so a Kick, having no effect text, would become +2 power and an additional +1 power for +3 total? I think there's a Crisis card that does something to replace all game text on a card type.

Possessed - the way I'm reading this, the Possessed player never changes (since the attack isn't Line-Up Ongoing), so can the Possessed activate the Line-Up Ongoing during each player's turn? TO DEFEAT: - must your super hero have no cards under it at the start of your turn until after Possessed is defeated, or only at the time that you defeat Possessed? I'm reading it as at the start of your turn and until beaten, which I think is good, but I'm just checking.

Visions of Evil - it says "hand or discard pile", just checking that the 2 weaknesses must come from one or the other, not 1 from each since it doesn't say "and/or"


A Heart Not Dead - Do you need to choose another player before you know if they completed their hidden objective? I would think so, so this needs to be announced quickly after the game ends. Otherwise, it would just say, "if any other player completed their Hidden Objective, choose one and gain VP for that completed Hidden Objective." Or, is it your intention for this card to match the highest VP value Hidden Objective completed by another player?

t_tibke
04-17-2017, 05:17 PM
Several good points here, but the first point to clarify is now updated in the rules below as rule 8.

Most of the rest of your statements can be resolved by understanding rule 9 below.

When an Event says "... you may" it means the Event is allowing you to do that action. When an Event says "...on your turn" it means you must do that action on your turn via your own cards/abilities/effects.

You must do one of the actions that the Event states in order to then pay the cost to defeat the Event. But sometimes the Event will allow you to actually do this (... you may), while other times you must do it through your own means by playing cards and abilities "... on your turn". Visions of Evil is a good example. There are NO cards in the set that allow you to return Weaknesses to the top of the Weakness stack. But Visions of Evil allows you to do so, so that you may Defeat the Event.

as for the and/or... I will amend that text on Drive Off The Shrouds and others like this.


Event Rules
1. After you've set out the Line-Up, and performed any "At the start of the game" actions, randomly select 8 Events and shuffle them into the Main Deck.
2. If an Event enters the Line-Up during any player's first turn, shuffle it into the Main Deck and refill the Line-Up.
3. When an Event is revealed after this, it enters the Line-Up and its effects resolve or go into effect. Event Attacks cannot be Defended.
4. If another Event is revealed, it replaces (goes on top of) the Event currently in the Line-Up.
5. When an Event is defeated, if there are other Events under it, the revealed Event goes back into effect without its Attack resolving a second time. Targets previously chosen are still the Target, for example.
6. If an Event is revealed during any other action (i.e. card gained from bottom of the Main Deck), it is set aside until the action resolves, then is shuffled back into the Main Deck.
7. Events cannot be destroyed.
8. You must accomplish the actions in "TO DEFEAT:" before you pay the cost of the Event.
9. When an Event says "... you may" it means the Event is allowing you to do that action. When an Event says "...on your turn" it means you must do that action on your turn via your own cards/abilities/effects.
10. When you defeat an Event, keep it beside your Super Hero until the end of the game. Then you may add the VP the Event provides into your VP total.

andymo24
04-18-2017, 07:24 PM
How many of the super villains are we supposed to play with?

Are we playing impossible mode where we lose if we don't beat all the sv and put all destroyed weaknesses back on the stack?

Also, please re-read the questions from my previous post. There were other real questions there that you have not answered.

t_tibke
04-18-2017, 10:25 PM
How many of the super villains are we supposed to play with?

Are we playing impossible mode where we lose if we don't beat all the sv and put all destroyed weaknesses back on the stack?

Also, please re-read the questions from my previous post. There were other real questions there that you have not answered.

You play a standard competitive game with 8 Super-Villains (Felix Faust the top, and Destiny the bottom).

Yes, you must beat all Super-Villains. If you get through the whole Main Deck though and are unable, count your VP at the end of the game still as normal. Highest is winner. We've been destroying Weaknesses in my test group.


Impose on a Sorcerer - "Super Power effects are all replaced with +1 Power." Does it replace all game text with "+1 Power", so a Kick becomes +1 power, or does it just replace effect text...
It does replace game text, yes. All of it. I'll reword to use the phrase "game text" instead.


Arcane Exhaustion - the way this reads, you would just need 2 power to buy it, so you could play your whole hand, and then discard your hand (which is empty)...
Hmm. I don't like that you can discard your hand, even if it's empty. I'll have to word timing on this or change.


Possessed - the way I'm reading this, the Possessed player never changes (since the attack isn't Line-Up Ongoing), so can the Possessed activate the Line-Up Ongoing during each player's turn? TO DEFEAT: - must your super hero have no cards under it at the start of your turn until after Possessed is defeated, or only at the time that you defeat Possessed? I'm reading it as at the start of your turn and until beaten, which I think is good, but I'm just checking.
The Line-Up Ongoing is always on during each player's turn. So yes, the start of your turn and until beaten.


A Heart Not Dead - Do you need to choose another player before you know if they completed their hidden objective? I would think so, so this needs to be announced quickly after the game ends. Otherwise, it would just say, "if any other player completed their Hidden Objective, choose one and gain VP for that completed Hidden Objective." Or, is it your intention for this card to match the highest VP value Hidden Objective completed by another player?
Yes. This should be announced first thing after the game ends.

There, that should cover everything not already covered in the Event rules.

andymo24
04-19-2017, 10:08 AM
We played one game last night. Shade (80), Jason (74), Black Orchid (34). Black Orchid couldn't compete at all, but he played kinda poorly and had really bad luck. Let me say first - THIS IS AN AWESOME GAME. I see a ton of potential - but as you yourself have said throughout this thread, it needs more play testing and adjustment before it's done.

Questions, Comments, and Notes:

Do cards under your super hero count towards VP at the end of the game?

Shade still seems rather OP, and I accidentally played his effect as "2 or more of the same non-Starter card type" because I had your Shade from the print sheet on BGG - which should be harder than two different non-Starter card types. Perhaps he should not have 6 cards the next turn after activating his effect. According to the Forever Evil end of turn sequence, you resolve end of turn effects before drawing a new hand. If you want any card to defy this sequence, it should be worded as such.
4548

Tim Hunter has a typo - missing the word "put"

Do Blood's Armor and Sword of Etrigan also flip over Etrigan, or just Jason Blood?

Do Blood's Armor and Sword of Etrigan flip Jason Blood if you are not Jason Blood and play the card? The way it reads, yes, you would.

Can Etrigan's effect be activated more than once a turn, if he ends up getting flipped multiple times?

Breath of Fire - I would remove the comma to make the intention more clear and use 'placed' if you want to indicate past tense. The verb 'put' is difficult because I think it isn't clear whether it indicates past, present, or future tense. Based on the wording, this game text does not look forward, so you must have already destroyed a card or placed a card under your hero before playing this card to get the additional +2 power.

Impose on a Sorcerer - Checking to see if you intended this to cause any ongoing super powers in play (like the defenses) to be immediately discarded since their game text is changed and are no longer ongoing. Pretty sure Cryptozoic ruled that they are discarded.

Possessed - Can the Possessed player activate the line-up ongoing ability during each player's turn, or only during his own turn? A Trojan Spirit explicitly says "at the start of their turn" but Possessed does not state a timing.

A Trojan Spirit - can the chosen player be yourself? So you could gain a starter from your own discard pile if you had one, and you could discard a SV to your own discard pile to defeat it?

Arcane Exhaustion - I would change the TO DEFEAT to "At the start of your turn, you may discard your hand..." and I would allow a player to do this even if their hand was empty, but you might prefer to make the player have at least one card to discard.

Drive Off the Shadows - Just confirming that you do want the destroy all weaknesses effect to activate when another Event comes out and is placed on top of it. Also confirming that you still want it to be hand and discard pile.

I think I would suggest adding 1 more Demon to the deck, for 4 total.

I was going to suggest making all Super Villains for this game original and not involve any from other sets, but the ones you chose all fit really well - except Harvest. I assume you also chose him because he interacts with Heroes - maybe give him a different effect that interacts with Heroes. I haven't seen the movie so I don't know if he fits in that way, but if he does, maybe pick a different artwork and effect. Especially since there aren't any ongoing Heroes in this game.

Floronic Man - I would consider making the attack "Each player puts a location they control, have in hand, or in their discard pile into the Line-Up" instead of just control.

Shade's Hidden Objective 'Out of Control' isn't fun to play. It would take too much time to keep counting your VP and since it is 'out of your control' there's no real objective to play toward.

I think you need some main deck attack cards to discard locations from play.

I would consider adding a location that let's you buy from the destroyed pile (New York City).

I would consider giving Deadman or Black Orchid an effect that interacts with cards under your superhero instead of their current effects. Or something that interacts with the destroyed pile. I do like this version of Black Orchid, but it made need a little bit of a boost to compete with the other very powerful Heroes in this game. What do you think of "If you used a location's effect this turn, draw a card and you may put a card from your hand or discard pile under your Super Hero." for one of them?

I would consider adding a location (or making one of the Hero's effects) to be able to do something to place or discard a card from under your Super Hero each turn (but different from Zatanna).

andymo24
04-19-2017, 01:29 PM
I think Constantine should gain a weakness for playing a card with cost 0 off the top of his deck. That even plays into the cancer aspect of his smoking and backstory.

I think a more balanced Shade would be "If you played 2 or more cards of the same type during your turn, after drawing a new hand put the bottom card of the main deck into your hand and then destroy a card in your hand."

t_tibke
04-20-2017, 06:46 AM
I think Constantine should gain a weakness for playing a card with cost 0 off the top of his deck. That even plays into the cancer aspect of his smoking and backstory.

I think a more balanced Shade would be "If you played 2 or more cards of the same type during your turn, after drawing a new hand put the bottom card of the main deck into your hand and then destroy a card in your hand."

Is your Constantine observation based on play time now? I'm not opposed to making the change. I'll give it some test games like that myself as well.

As for Shade, that's fine. I think that wording works too. But that does trigger on playing 2 starters if you leave out "Non-Starter card types". Did you intend to?

andymo24
04-20-2017, 07:57 AM
For Shade, we made it non-Starter.

Last night we played Constantine (72), Batman (25), and Zatanna (23). Constantine had 5 power his first turn, and only went up from there. He was buying the SV almost every turn within a few rounds. Batman managed to get one.
Then Destiny came out, and his base cost was 10 from your print sheets. It was a miracle Constantine was finally able to beat him thanks to some intentional help through The Blight letting him draw three cards (Zatanna destroyed a 2 VP card) and he had Demonic Influence. The cost was like 25.

The next game we played was Swamp Thing, Black Orchid, and Shade (but Shade's effect was to play two non-starters of the same type, destroy a card played, and put the bottom card of the main deck into his hand and draw 4, so he has a 5 card hand). This was a pretty competitive game and Swamp Thing won, but we couldn't beat Destiny and had to run out the main deck. I still feel like this version of Shade is very strong (compared to other Cryptozoic Super Heroes) because if he were playing correctly, he would limit himself to only a couple card types until he got some draw power or destroyed several starters. Just load up on kicks.

Have you really not had this much trouble in your play testing? In a 3-player game, if nobody defends Destiny's FAA his cost goes up by 3 and everyone has 2 less cards to try to beat him with, and costs 1 more every turn. By the time it comes around to the first player with a full hand again, his cost is 15, but now the player has 4 cards. To compound it, there are lots of attacks that either make everyone discard a card or put a card from their hand under their hero, but there are some decent draw defenses so players could have 3 to 6 cards by the time it's their turn. I'm not sure if there's enough draw support or massive power cards to make a 30+ power turn. Maybe Destiny's "put a card under Destiny" effect should be an attack each play could defend, or a card from the discard pile instead of hand.

Maybe the design of this game is to have crazy strong Super Heroes to clean out your deck quick and take down the SVs really fast. I feel like if you're letting Constantine and Shade destroy starters so easily on top of giving them power or gaining cards for free, all the other heroes need to have a similar power.

t_tibke
04-20-2017, 10:16 AM
For Shade, we made it non-Starter.

Last night we played Constantine (72), Batman (25), and Zatanna (23). Constantine had 5 power his first turn, and only went up from there. He was buying the SV almost every turn within a few rounds. Batman managed to get one.
Then Destiny came out, and his base cost was 10 from your print sheets. It was a miracle Constantine was finally able to beat him thanks to some intentional help through The Blight letting him draw three cards (Zatanna destroyed a 2 VP card) and he had Demonic Influence. The cost was like 25.

The next game we played was Swamp Thing, Black Orchid, and Shade (but Shade's effect was to play two non-starters of the same type, destroy a card played, and put the bottom card of the main deck into his hand and draw 4, so he has a 5 card hand). This was a pretty competitive game and Swamp Thing won, but we couldn't beat Destiny and had to run out the main deck. I still feel like this version of Shade is very strong (compared to other Cryptozoic Super Heroes) because if he were playing correctly, he would limit himself to only a couple card types until he got some draw power or destroyed several starters. Just load up on kicks.

Have you really not had this much trouble in your play testing? In a 3-player game, if nobody defends Destiny's FAA his cost goes up by 3 and everyone has 2 less cards to try to beat him with, and costs 1 more every turn. By the time it comes around to the first player with a full hand again, his cost is 15, but now the player has 4 cards. To compound it, there are lots of attacks that either make everyone discard a card or put a card from their hand under their hero, but there are some decent draw defenses so players could have 3 to 6 cards by the time it's their turn. I'm not sure if there's enough draw support or massive power cards to make a 30+ power turn. Maybe Destiny's "put a card under Destiny" effect should be an attack each play could defend, or a card from the discard pile instead of hand.

Maybe the design of this game is to have crazy strong Super Heroes to clean out your deck quick and take down the SVs really fast. I feel like if you're letting Constantine and Shade destroy starters so easily on top of giving them power or gaining cards for free, all the other heroes need to have a similar power.

First off, great data. Thanks for trying the set out!

In about 35 games, we've not had Constantine go off that harshly. But as you mentioned, I might be able to come up with some good wording to add a Weakness to his deck as well.

You didn't happen to list the score of the second game you played. How did Shade do? How many times roughly, did his ability even trigger?

As for Destiny, no, we've not had many issues. Usually someone is able to take him down within a few rounds. But, I will say that we had him at 9 base for probably 25 of the games or so. That 1 Power difference might matter. The last few we've done have been quite difficult to defeat, and we got close to running the deck out. I think the idea of putting a card from your discard pile under him is probably a good solution, without going back to the 9 Cost base. If not, we'll go back to 9 as well.

Again, thanks for the efforts so far.

andymo24
04-20-2017, 11:51 AM
First off, great data. Thanks for trying the set out!

...

Again, thanks for the efforts so far.

I'm definitely not being critical - just trying to share my thoughts and help it improve. Sometimes it's difficult to convey positivity in plain text. It is a lot of fun!

t_tibke
04-20-2017, 01:54 PM
Woah. Did this post get edited? I missed this entire post! And very happy you like how it plays--it's got a nice level of complexity for experienced DC DBG players, right?


Do cards under your super hero count towards VP at the end of the game?
Ah yes. I forgot to list this as a rule change. As of this set, cards under your Super Hero count towards your VP.


Shade still seems rather OP, and I accidentally played his effect as "2 or more of the same non-Starter card type" because I had your Shade from the print sheet on BGG - which should be harder than two different non-Starter card types. Perhaps he should not have 6 cards the next turn after activating his effect. According to the Forever Evil end of turn sequence, you resolve end of turn effects before drawing a new hand. If you want any card to defy this sequence, it should be worded as such.
The one on the print sheet is the most recent and the one we've been testing most recent. We've been averaging about 5x a game that his ability triggers. With that level of infrequency, and the way turn sequence works, the 6 card hand felt okay. But if he still feels OP, I think your adjustment below works well to keep him at a 5 card hand. He's still evolving. We're just about there. See where he's grown from?

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Tim Hunter has a typo - missing the word "put"
Thanks. I'll fix and update the print sheets.


Do Blood's Armor and Sword of Etrigan also flip over Etrigan, or just Jason Blood?

Do Blood's Armor and Sword of Etrigan flip Jason Blood if you are not Jason Blood and play the card? The way it reads, yes, you would.

Can Etrigan's effect be activated more than once a turn, if he ends up getting flipped multiple times?

These Equipment cards only affect Jason Blood, so they don't turn Etrigan back into the weakling, ha. And yes, they work to do so, even if another player plays them. And yes, Etrigan can flip back and forth several times between the player's turns. But flipping the card isn't what triggers Etrigan's ability. He just has that ability that is just on during your turn.


Breath of Fire - I would remove the comma to make the intention more clear and use 'placed' if you want to indicate past tense. The verb 'put' is difficult because I think it isn't clear whether it indicates past, present, or future tense. Based on the wording, this game text does not look forward, so you must have already destroyed a card or placed a card under your hero before playing this card to get the additional +2 power.

+4 Power if you destroyed a card this turn or placed a card under your Super Hero. Otherwise, +2 Power.

Works for me, and you're probably right--this is clearer.


Impose on a Sorcerer - Checking to see if you intended this to cause any ongoing super powers in play (like the defenses) to be immediately discarded since their game text is changed and are no longer ongoing. Pretty sure Cryptozoic ruled that they are discarded.
Didn't consider this, but I'm good with the way Cryptozoic has ruled this. This hurts the 4 Ongoing Defenses though pretty hard though.


Possessed - Can the Possessed player activate the line-up ongoing ability during each player's turn, or only during his own turn? A Trojan Spirit explicitly says "at the start of their turn" but Possessed does not state a timing.

You're right. I'll update Possessed. It's only meant to be on their own turn.


A Trojan Spirit - can the chosen player be yourself? So you could gain a starter from your own discard pile if you had one, and you could discard a SV to your own discard pile to defeat it?
I should change "player" to "foe". Will do.


Arcane Exhaustion - I would change the TO DEFEAT to "At the start of your turn, you may discard your hand..." and I would allow a player to do this even if their hand was empty, but you might prefer to make the player have at least one card to discard.
Agreed.


Drive Off the Shrouds - Just confirming that you do want the destroy all weaknesses effect to activate when another Event comes out and is placed on top of it. Also confirming that you still want it to be hand and discard pile.
Yes, and yes. The reason for the "destroy on replacement" effect is because it may never happen if you don't do it when it's replaced, and this felt REALLY bad for the target. I'm even okay if they DO eventually get the Event and clear out their hand and discard pile of Weaknesses again, even after the clear out from replacement of the Event. Keep in mind that any Weaknesses in your deck are stuck there. So there's always chances that this happens to some or all of the Weaknesses they have still.




I think I would suggest adding 1 more Demon to the deck, for 4 total.
Hmm. I could, but what would I drop from the villains for this?


I was going to suggest making all Super Villains for this game original and not involve any from other sets, but the ones you chose all fit really well - except Harvest. I assume you also chose him because he interacts with Heroes - maybe give him a different effect that interacts with Heroes. I haven't seen the movie so I don't know if he fits in that way, but if he does, maybe pick a different artwork and effect. Especially since there aren't any ongoing Heroes in this game.

Sure. I'm open to other Super-Villains of the occult/magical nature. Harvest still hits your hand so it didn't feel too odd. I don't have any issue switching it out for a new Super-Villain as well.


Floronic Man - I would consider making the attack "Each player puts a location they control, have in hand, or in their discard pile into the Line-Up" instead of just control.
Sure. I think we've hit a location out there w/ this card maybe 2x ever.


Shade's Hidden Objective 'Out of Control' isn't fun to play. It would take too much time to keep counting your VP and since it is 'out of your control' there's no real objective to play toward.
True. That was why it's only worth 3. But if it's a fun factor, I'm open to new options here.


I think you need some main deck attack cards to discard locations from play.
I'm out of room, but I can modify something already out there that has overlap in functionality. Just not sure what yet. I can see that being a valuable thing to do though.


I would consider adding a location that let's you buy from the destroyed pile (New York City).
An even 10 Locations? Nanda Parbat is still meh. I could modify that instead? Seems decent.


I would consider giving Deadman or Black Orchid an effect that interacts with cards under your superhero instead of their current effects. Or something that interacts with the destroyed pile. I do like this version of Black Orchid, but it made need a little bit of a boost to compete with the other very powerful Heroes in this game. What do you think of "If you used a location's effect this turn, draw a card and you may put a card from your hand or discard pile under your Super Hero." for one of them?

I've been trying to get Black Orchid to a good spot since the beginning. Let's try out your suggestion here for Black Orchid. I'd consider a slight beef up to ... +1 Power and draw a card... I'm pretty happy with Deadman at this point, but as an option, someone else on BGG had a different Deadman that interacted w/ the destroyed pile.

More great feedback, thank you for everything your group is doing to help polish this set.

andymo24
04-21-2017, 09:33 AM
I played one game with my much more experienced group last night. Jason Blood did very poorly, but he also wasn't into it and really wasn't paying attention or thinking through how to trigger his flip, or even use his +2 and draw 1.
I feel like this is obvious, but to confirm, JB can choose not to play all his cards on his turn and purposely only generate 4 power or less in order to trigger his flip, right?

Several notes for Zatanna. "If you played a Non-Starter this turn, you may pay 2 power to put a card under Zatanna into your hand, or 1 power to put a card from your hand under Zatanna." How many times can you do each of these actions each turn? Can you do both once? Both as many times as you can afford? I haven't played with her yet but she hasn't been doing well when my friends do. I would also change her to "pay 2 power to play a card from under Zatanna" so that she can benefit from Shadowcrest location. Or change the wording of Shadowcrest to "Each card you play this turn that was under your Super Hero get an additional +1 Power." so that playing it from your hand doesn't remove that +1 benefit. I think I would change Shadowcrest instead of Zatanna because I don't think the location is tempting/good enough. Having the ability to put a card in your hand and get more options by deciding when/if to play it is a bit more useful than playing it directly from under your Hero. Same with Zatanna letting you put it in your hand instead of a direct play.

I was Deadman. Phobia came out early and Zat got it. JB gave me a vulnerability. I proceeded to destroy them the rest of the game and won by a wide margin. I had no trouble with Destiny this time. They thought that drawing two cards was OP but I don't know if I agree. Needs more play testing but an alternative could be "draw 1 card and you may destroy a card in your hand or discard pile." Or maybe "draw one card and you may put a card from your hand on the bottom of your deck and draw an additional card." I think he may have seemed OP because of all the attack cards.

I do think there are too many attacks to make players discard cards (or put from hand under Hero), and Helmet of Fate is everyone's least favorite defense. I would consider trying to use less cards that already exist and make something that ties into the comic or movie, even if it has a very similar effect as a card that already exists. Maybe use a Shimmer instead of Phobia. Jason Blood just never had a hand toward the end of the game, always lost his cards.

Other notes/questions/comments:

I liked your comment from way before about cards under your Hero being like a spell book. Maybe for this game, there's a different zone for cards under your Hero with its own rules, which may be different from cards put there by Atrocitus or the Arrow Crossover or Crisis Bane. Cryptozoic has made that rule before. That would justify your rule that they keep VP and are not destroyed at the end of the game. You could also make cards that interact with cards under your Hero Spell cards that could be referenced in the rules or targeted as Spell cards (+1 power and add a Spell card from your discard pile to your hand).

I think Network Enforcer should be "Draw a card for each Network Enforcer you have already played this turn." so a third one would let you draw 2, and Magic would activate it too.

Papa Midnite - Did you intend for him to attack even if there is not an event in the lineup, so that other players can still use a defense if they want? He might be too powerful to cost 5 and give 2 VP. I would either make him 1 VP or cost 6.

Black Boris is really OP. I would consider making him +2 power, and make his effect target each player's discard pile instead of hand.

I would add another Zatanna's Black Hat, and it really should cost 4 or only give +2 power.

Changing Man and Bend Reality having such similar effects but costing the same doesn't seem right to me. Maybe add another Bend Reality, and change Changing Man to do something that works really well and more directly with Shade, like "Reveal and draw the top card of your deck. Put a card of the same type from your discard pile into your hand. If you cannot, draw an additional card." This effect would probably cost 6 and only have 1 copy in the deck. Or maybe something to add a card from the destroyed pile to the bottom of the main deck (Stargirl from Forever Evil) or reveal the bottom 3 card of the main deck and replace them in any order.
**I really think you need to buy Forever Evil and play it many times - there are a lot of interesting mechanics in that game and a lot of different play experiences that would really enlighten your design on JLD** And anyone making recommendations for this game should probably have plenty of Arrow Crossover experience, including you and me, which I believe we don't.

I would have only one copy of Utility Belt in the deck. Maybe add/make another card to give VP for a different type. (+1 VP for each Spell card? :))

If you use Pralaya to defeat an event, do you still have to pay the cost to buy the event? Since you still get VP for cards under your Hero at the end of the game, I would say you should still have to pay the cost to buy the event.

Does putting a card under your Hero remove destroy effects (or return effects) if there are any placed on that card? That may be a Cerberus engine question for Cryptozoic.

I'd add another copy of Fateful Spell and Books of Magic.

Black Hand and Skeleton Key should both probably cost 4.

Solomon Grundy should do more. Like +3 power and draw a card, or +2 power and draw a card and cost 9 or 8, or cost 9 or 8 as he is now.

Floronic Man - we made it so if you chose a location you already control, you can use it twice. It may also be interesting to make him +Power for each location you control or in play.

Enchantress doesn't seem powerful enough. She's not tempting to buy. Maybe make her play the top card of your deck and a random card from under your Super Hero, and you can choose whether or not to return any of them.


Hey Cryptozoic, you hiring?

andymo24
04-21-2017, 12:05 PM
I feel like I haven't said some of the things I really like about this game - and there are a lot. Really fun and interesting mechanics, interaction and strategies, and some really well-designed cards.

Mindwarp and Ritchie Simpson are great. Incorporeal and Power Circle are really well done. Tim Hunter is great (but maybe should cost 3). Andrew Bennet, Fateful Spell, Regrowth, Klarion Bleak, Gentleman Ghost, Dr. Mist, Books of Magic - all great designs.

I like Sword of Etrigan but I don't know about it costing only 4. Maybe cost 5 as it is, or cut it to +1 Power instead of +2. It's extremely powerful, adding a villain from your discard pile to your hand. Maybe that's the point, including three in the deck. Maybe add another?

Maybe add another Blood's Armor and make the defense let you draw two cards. Or make it a reveal defense instead of discard. "you may reveal this card to avoid an attack. If you do, flip over Jason Blood." And it keeps its play effect. That might need to cost 6.

t_tibke
04-24-2017, 06:41 AM
I played one game with my much more experienced group last night. Jason Blood did very poorly, but he also wasn't into it and really wasn't paying attention or thinking through how to trigger his flip, or even use his +2 and draw 1.
I feel like this is obvious, but to confirm, JB can choose not to play all his cards on his turn and purposely only generate 4 power or less in order to trigger his flip, right?
Yep, that's perfectly fine.


Several notes for Zatanna. "If you played a Non-Starter this turn, you may pay 2 power to put a card under Zatanna into your hand, or 1 power to put a card from your hand under Zatanna." How many times can you do each of these actions each turn? Can you do both once? Both as many times as you can afford? I haven't played with her yet but she hasn't been doing well when my friends do.
Alright, I agree. Someone else suggested this nerf to her. I have an alternative that is probably better that I'm ready to try out now myself. I just haven't gotten to it yet.

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I would also change her to "pay 2 power to play a card from under Zatanna" so that she can benefit from Shadowcrest location. Or change the wording of Shadowcrest to "Each card you play this turn that was under your Super Hero get an additional +1 Power." so that playing it from your hand doesn't remove that +1 benefit. I think I would change Shadowcrest instead of Zatanna because I don't think the location is tempting/good enough. Having the ability to put a card in your hand and get more options by deciding when/if to play it is a bit more useful than playing it directly from under your Hero. Same with Zatanna letting you put it in your hand instead of a direct play.
I'll update Shadowcrest for this then, yeah.
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I was Deadman. Phobia came out early and Zat got it. JB gave me a vulnerability. I proceeded to destroy them the rest of the game and won by a wide margin. I had no trouble with Destiny this time. They thought that drawing two cards was OP but I don't know if I agree. Needs more play testing but an alternative could be "draw 1 card and you may destroy a card in your hand or discard pile." Or maybe "draw one card and you may put a card from your hand on the bottom of your deck and draw an additional card." I think he may have seemed OP because of all the attack cards.
I have only played w/ Deadman a few times since going up to 2 card draws. I'm not sure it's OP yet, but he was at least able to win once. I'm making a reduction in the number of attacks in the set though, so that might help as well. Also to the defenses available so it might be easier for everyone to get some useful ones as well.


I do think there are too many attacks to make players discard cards (or put from hand under Hero), and Helmet of Fate is everyone's least favorite defense. I would consider trying to use less cards that already exist and make something that ties into the comic or movie, even if it has a very similar effect as a card that already exists. Maybe use a Shimmer instead of Phobia. Jason Blood just never had a hand toward the end of the game, always lost his cards.
Yeah, reducing attacks a bit feels right. I already had this suspicion anyway but this confirms it too.

Other notes/questions/comments:


I liked your comment from way before about cards under your Hero being like a spell book. Maybe for this game, there's a different zone for cards under your Hero with its own rules, which may be different from cards put there by Atrocitus or the Arrow Crossover or Crisis Bane. Cryptozoic has made that rule before. That would justify your rule that they keep VP and are not destroyed at the end of the game. You could also make cards that interact with cards under your Hero Spell cards that could be referenced in the rules or targeted as Spell cards (+1 power and add a Spell card from your discard pile to your hand).
That would be cool. I do like the Spell idea. But at this point that's a big rework into everything I think and a whole other theme to support in the set. Maybe in an expansion? :)


I think Network Enforcer should be "Draw a card for each Network Enforcer you have already played this turn." so a third one would let you draw 2, and Magic would activate it too.
I've never actually managed to get a 2nd even played, but alright. That justify the beef up in the card.


Papa Midnite - Did you intend for him to attack even if there is not an event in the lineup, so that other players can still use a defense if they want? He might be too powerful to cost 5 and give 2 VP. I would either make him 1 VP or cost 6.
Sure. That'd be how it works. I think the 2 VP is a typo on him. I'll drop to 1.
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Black Boris is really OP. I would consider making him +2 power, and make his effect target each player's discard pile instead of hand.
Yep. I'll change the text to "discard pile" and raise the cost to 5. I have the room there.



Changing Man and Bend Reality having such similar effects but costing the same doesn't seem right to me. Maybe add another Bend Reality, and change Changing Man to do something that works really well and more directly with Shade, like "Reveal and draw the top card of your deck. Put a card of the same type from your discard pile into your hand. If you cannot, draw an additional card." This effect would probably cost 6 and only have 1 copy in the deck. Or maybe something to add a card from the destroyed pile to the bottom of the main deck (Stargirl from Forever Evil) or reveal the bottom 3 card of the main deck and replace them in any order.



**I really think you need to buy Forever Evil and play it many times - there are a lot of interesting mechanics in that game and a lot of different play experiences that would really enlighten your design on JLD** And anyone making recommendations for this game should probably have plenty of Arrow Crossover experience, including you and me, which I believe we don't.
FE arrived the day before you posted this, and I've now had some playtime with it. Some cool stuff. And as for Arrow, that set is basically 9 cards. I consider that almost unplayable, but I do have the card list and tried to apply several aspects of it here and there.


If you use Pralaya to defeat an event, do you still have to pay the cost to buy the event? Since you still get VP for cards under your Hero at the end of the game, I would say you should still have to pay the cost to buy the event.
No, she defeats the entire event. If you can find a good way to get her back out from under your Super Hero and use her again, the more power to you.


I'd add another copy of Fateful Spell and Books of Magic.
Black Hand and Skeleton Key should both probably cost 4.
Solomon Grundy should do more. Like +3 power and draw a card, or +2 power and draw a card and cost 9 or 8, or cost 9 or 8 as he is now.
As much as I like Fateful Spell, that card is quite strong. Skeleton Key maybe. And Solomon Grundy already got bumped up from what he was in X2 or X3 or wherever I got the initial design from. He was only +2 Power in that.


Floronic Man - we made it so if you chose a location you already control, you can use it twice. It may also be interesting to make him +Power for each location you control or in play.
I'll mess w/ that a bit, sure.


Enchantress doesn't seem powerful enough. She's not tempting to buy. Maybe make her play the top card of your deck and a random card from under your Super Hero, and you can choose whether or not to return any of them.
That's been the consensus with us so far too. I'll mess with her too.

Hey Cryptozoic, you hiring?

t_tibke
04-24-2017, 07:42 AM
I feel like I haven't said some of the things I really like about this game - and there are a lot. Really fun and interesting mechanics, interaction and strategies, and some really well-designed cards.

Mindwarp and Ritchie Simpson are great. Incorporeal and Power Circle are really well done. Tim Hunter is great (but maybe should cost 3). Andrew Bennet, Fateful Spell, Regrowth, Klarion Bleak, Gentleman Ghost, Dr. Mist, Books of Magic - all great designs.

I like Sword of Etrigan but I don't know about it costing only 4. Maybe cost 5 as it is, or cut it to +1 Power instead of +2. It's extremely powerful, adding a villain from your discard pile to your hand. Maybe that's the point, including three in the deck. Maybe add another?

Maybe add another Blood's Armor and make the defense let you draw two cards. Or make it a reveal defense instead of discard. "you may reveal this card to avoid an attack. If you do, flip over Jason Blood." And it keeps its play effect. That might need to cost 6.

No problem! I don't take any critical feedback personally at all. I consider it helping to make the set better, and I appreciate the time your group has taken. I'm glad you're having fun w/ it.

I went with the reveal aspect on Blood's Armor. I think it needed something else special to really make it good. We'll stick w/ 1 copy now.

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t_tibke
04-24-2017, 10:30 AM
Hi all. With all the playtesting going on, I've got some new cards for the set that will replace some of those that have come from other sets. I haven't fully decided on which of these to include. Some of these are competing for each other's cost slot (particularly Bugger Off and Frighten), so let me know which you like best.

New Defenses
455545564557

A Reprint with Alternate Art and a Replacement for Energy Absorbtion
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t_tibke
04-24-2017, 10:39 AM
Here are some Hero replacements and my confident replacement for Super Strength--Mystical Strength! Thoughts?

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Replacements for Same Cost Heroes from other Sets
These should fill in some holes to help cards combine together better--something some of the other cards didn't do. The Winged Avenger is a card I made previously, which I may consider for inclusion to replace another 4 cost, but not necessarily. What do you think?

4561456245634564

t_tibke
04-24-2017, 10:48 AM
Here are some cards that need some evaluation for replacement of other Villains.

First off, here's the replacement for Helmet of Fate, which did tie in to the theme fine, but we needed some stronger defenses with all the Attacks in the set. I had the issue of having 4 different Defenses that couldn't be played from your hand (Like Force Field), which I've now eliminated. Thoughts on this one?

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Needed some more Weakness doling out, as some other cards rely on them to increase Power and whatnot. And reduced 2 cards worth of Attack as well, in Pantheon over Strife/Phobia. Pantheon will also help set up buys like the previously shown Princess Amethyst, and plays into the destruction triggered cards as well.

45664567

And for the fun of it, I even made these available if you're super ambitious with your printing.
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andymo24
04-24-2017, 08:56 PM
So... I know very little of actual DC lore, much less any of the characters from JLD. I just watched the movie for the first time. Now I understand why all the characters are beyond OP, and have every right to be.

https://media.tenor.co/images/b2190afe666915580adb0890260362d1/tenor.gif

t_tibke
04-25-2017, 08:04 AM
So... I know very little of actual DC lore, much less any of the characters from JLD. I just watched the movie for the first time. Now I understand why all the characters are beyond OP, and have every right to be.

Well, glad you saw it and that you liked it. I love the team itself. I will say though, haha, that being cool and powerful thematically probably doesn't justify poor game design by being too OP. I do want to bring things in line, though I realize several things have started out OP and are working towards balance. That's just how drafts of each card's design works, for me anyway, in any of the card game design stuff I've done over the years (none of which are truly published).

andymo24
04-25-2017, 03:18 PM
Hi all. With all the playtesting going on, I've got some new cards for the set that will replace some of those that have come from other sets. I haven't fully decided on which of these to include. Some of these are competing for each other's cost slot (particularly Bugger Off and Frighten), so let me know which you like best.

New Defenses
455545564557

A Reprint with Alternate Art and a Replacement for Energy Absorbtion
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I like all of those defenses. For your Demonic Influence, have you considered switching it to villains in your discard pile? It would be like Starbolt but for villains. Do you specifically like that it plays for villains you control? Just curious - not making a suggestion.

Your "comma, and" style of effect writing is apparently confusing to me. If you intend for the player to be able to destroy a card in hand regardless of if there is a card under his Super Hero, I would just as soon make it two separate sentences. If destroying a card in hand is dependent, I'd drop the comma and put the if statement first.

andymo24
04-25-2017, 03:29 PM
Here are some Hero replacements and my confident replacement for Super Strength--Mystical Strength! Thoughts?

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Replacements for Same Cost Heroes from other Sets
These should fill in some holes to help cards combine together better--something some of the other cards didn't do. The Winged Avenger is a card I made previously, which I may consider for inclusion to replace another 4 cost, but not necessarily. What do you think?

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Mystical Strength seems OP, maybe drop him to +2 power and +1 for each...

Princess Amethyst - maybe just say "frozen token" from FE. Flipping is a new mechanic and would need further rule explanation. Frozen cards can be destroyed and played. Can flipped cards? Just feels like too much. Have you played MacApple's My Little Pony game?

Changing Man - freaking awesome. Love it. Draw and reveal a hero to pick Changing Man back up :)

Winged Avenger - I would add "and have no cards in your hand." to the line-up ongoing text. Otherwise it's just +1 automatically. Or maybe make him Line-Up Ongoing: +1 Power if there is an Equipment in the Line-Up.

Zauriel - very interesting. I like it.

andymo24
04-25-2017, 03:33 PM
Here are some cards that need some evaluation for replacement of other Villains.

First off, here's the replacement for Helmet of Fate, which did tie in to the theme fine, but we needed some stronger defenses with all the Attacks in the set. I had the issue of having 4 different Defenses that couldn't be played from your hand (Like Force Field), which I've now eliminated. Thoughts on this one?

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Needed some more Weakness doling out, as some other cards rely on them to increase Power and whatnot. And reduced 2 cards worth of Attack as well, in Pantheon over Strife/Phobia. Pantheon will also help set up buys like the previously shown Princess Amethyst, and plays into the destruction triggered cards as well.

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And for the fun of it, I even made these available if you're super ambitious with your printing.
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All of these look awesome to me. Interesting that you put "may" before drawing on Suit of Souls. There have been times when I really didn't want to draw a card from playing my defense. If you choose not to draw, can you still reveal a villain and destroy...?

t_tibke
04-25-2017, 11:43 PM
I like all of those defenses. For your Demonic Influence, have you considered switching it to villains in your discard pile? It would be like Starbolt but for villains. Do you specifically like that it plays for villains you control? Just curious - not making a suggestion.
No, just changed the art on the original card. I guess I'll go with Frighten over Bugger Off then.


Your "comma, and" style of effect writing is apparently confusing to me. If you intend for the player to be able to destroy a card in hand regardless of if there is a card under his Super Hero, I would just as soon make it two separate sentences. If destroying a card in hand is dependent, I'd drop the comma and put the if statement first.


I went with the standard English on the original card, Energy Absorption, which this replaces. And I just realized I misspelled.

t_tibke
04-25-2017, 11:48 PM
Mystical Strength seems OP, maybe drop him to +2 power and +1 for each...
That's rarely going to hit the +5 Power of Super Strength.


Princess Amethyst - maybe just say "frozen token" from FE. Flipping is a new mechanic and would need further rule explanation. Frozen cards can be destroyed and played. Can flipped cards? Just feels like too much. Have you played MacApple's My Little Pony game?
I haven't, but mostly just because I haven't figured out how to set up the Steam game and get it going.


Changing Man - freaking awesome. Love it. Draw and reveal a hero to pick Changing Man back up :)
:D


Winged Avenger - I would add "and have no cards in your hand." to the line-up ongoing text. Otherwise it's just +1 automatically. Or maybe make him Line-Up Ongoing: +1 Power if there is an Equipment in the Line-Up.
Really leaning towards not having the room for this. I think I'll leave it out. It's fun, but making sure all the other mechanics work well together is priority.


Zauriel - very interesting. I like it.
Fills a few good roles.

t_tibke
04-25-2017, 11:49 PM
All of these look awesome to me. Interesting that you put "may" before drawing on Suit of Souls. There have been times when I really didn't want to draw a card from playing my defense. If you choose not to draw, can you still reveal a villain and destroy...?

The way it's written, you really would have to do both the draw and destroy. Or is it. Now I'm not sure if the "may" affects both.

t_tibke
04-26-2017, 08:32 AM
Alright, and I believe I'll be replacing Raven with this guy, Blue Devil. Trying to reduce the sheer volume of card draw and gain in the set. I took a look at the numbers on that and it was a wee bit high.

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Also, here's the most recent version of Black Orchid we've been testing. It plays really nicely and has a lot of cool card interactions. Sadly, no Location relation though. Still determining if draw 2 is OP, or draw 1 would be fine. These new adjustments to the set do give quite a few options to get cards moving under/out of the under Super Hero zone.
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I'm going to get all the print sheets and List fully updated shortly. There've been quite a few updates.

t_tibke
05-02-2017, 08:03 PM
Alright, the set is available for printing. Thanks for all of your feedback. You can see my update regarding the printing on my BoardGameGeek link here! And please, if you do any other playing with the set I'd love to hear how it went!

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/25524148#25524148

DimeDrl
05-02-2017, 10:27 PM
70 Dorras before shipping. @_@ Dang!

t_tibke
05-02-2017, 10:54 PM
70 Dorras before shipping. @_@ Dang!

Yeah, pretty rough. I guess you've gotta be a baller to get the whole set, haha. I really debated whether I needed the starter stuff myself even, but I just went for it.

andymo24
05-03-2017, 09:26 AM
You aren't posting print sheets anymore? And you gave the Events blue card backs? Won't that mess with the game play a bit since they're in the main deck?

t_tibke
05-03-2017, 01:12 PM
You aren't posting print sheets anymore? And you gave the Events blue card backs? Won't that mess with the game play a bit since they're in the main deck?

I'm updating the print sheets again as we speak. As for the blue backs, Events cause weird little exceptions anyway when one comes up (which often require you to shuffle it back into the deck), so it's actually fine to use the blue backs. Then it's also easier to keep them out of your deck and separated once you've obtained them.

DimeDrl
05-03-2017, 03:17 PM
I'm updating the print sheets again as we speak. As for the blue backs, Events cause weird little exceptions anyway when one comes up (which often require you to shuffle it back into the deck), so it's actually fine to use the blue backs. Then it's also easier to keep them out of your deck and separated once you've obtained them.

But how does it work with cards that allow players to take the top card off the deck, such as Shazam or Riddler?

t_tibke
05-03-2017, 03:38 PM
But how does it work with cards that allow players to take the top card off the deck, such as Shazam or Riddler?

I'll repost the Event rules here, initially in the BGGeek post, to help clarify. Rule 6 below covers this.

Here are the Event rules:
1. After you've set out the Line-Up, and performed any "At the start of the game" actions, randomly select 8 Events and shuffle them into the Main Deck.
2. If an Event enters the Line-Up during any player's first turn, shuffle it into the Main Deck and refill the Line-Up.
3. When an Event is revealed after this, it enters the Line-Up and its effects resolve or go into effect. Event Attacks cannot be Defended.
4. If another Event is revealed, it replaces (goes on top of) the Event currently in the Line-Up.
5. When an Event is defeated, if there are other Events under it, the revealed Event goes back into effect without its Attack resolving a second time. Targets previously chosen are still the Target, for example.
6. If an Event is revealed during any other action (i.e. card gained from bottom of the Main Deck), it is set aside until the action resolves, then is shuffled back into the Main Deck.
7. Events cannot be destroyed.
8. You must accomplish the actions in "TO DEFEAT:" before you pay the cost of the Event.
9. When an Event says "... you may" it means the Event is allowing you to do that action. When an Event says "...on your turn" it means you must do that action on your turn via your own cards/abilities/effects.
10. When you defeat an Event, keep it beside your Super Hero until the end of the game. Then you may add the VP the Event provides into your VP total.

t_tibke
05-03-2017, 04:42 PM
Reposting this, as the new ones are updated and available if you don't want to spend money to print actual cards.

JLD - Print Sheets!
Rather than try to post in two different places, I'm going to go ahead and just steer you all right over here to my link at BoardGame Geek where you can grab all the print sheets for the Justice League Dark set!

Looking forward to all of your feedback and reports on playtesting sessions (even you Cryptozoic guys if you have the burning desire to do so! You know you want to )

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/25619872#25619872

andymo24
05-25-2017, 07:54 PM
So, Bend Reality seems to be missing from your updated print sheets, and I'm not sure how many SV you intend for the final game. Is it the 15 you originally posted on this forum?

When an Event enters the Line-Up to refill after someone's turn, is it supposed to attack/effect the player whose turn just ended, or the player whose turn is upcoming?

t_tibke
05-27-2017, 08:27 AM
Bend Reality, I'll put in. My bad. As for Super-Villains for the final game, isn't the intended number always 8? Or did we house rule that? I don't think the intention is to ever use ALL of the Super-Villains provided, but I suppose that's dependent on the length of game you're looking for.

Events are supposed to Attack the upcoming player.

andymo24
05-27-2017, 09:31 AM
Bend Reality, I'll put in. My bad. As for Super-Villains for the final game, isn't the intended number always 8? Or did we house rule that? I don't think the intention is to ever use ALL of the Super-Villains provided, but I suppose that's dependent on the length of game you're looking for.

Events are supposed to Attack the upcoming player.

I know it's 8 total per game, I meant which ones do you want in your final set. There were 15 in your original lists and print sheets. Then you added Eclipso to your final print sheets, but there were only 11 in your print sheets. Your list of SV on BGG won't load for me. I assumed Eclipso replaced Harvest.

How many times can you use each of Zatanna's abilities each turn? Both once? Or only one of them once? Or both without any limit? Do you have to pay the 1 Power to put a card under her or just have played a Non-Starter?

t_tibke
05-29-2017, 12:04 PM
I know it's 8 total per game, I meant which ones do you want in your final set. There were 15 in your original lists and print sheets. Then you added Eclipso to your final print sheets, but there were only 11 in your print sheets. Your list of SV on BGG won't load for me. I assumed Eclipso replaced Harvest.

How many times can you use each of Zatanna's abilities each turn? Both once? Or only one of them once? Or both without any limit? Do you have to pay the 1 Power to put a card under her or just have played a Non-Starter?

Yes, Eclipso replaced Harvest. I'll have to update the list, because you couldn't read the link I posted anyway.


You can use Zatanna's ability to either put under or take out when you've played at least 1 Non-Starter and paid 1 Power. We only use it once per turn, but I'm not 100% sure it's broken if you use it more than that. Probably. Which means I've neglected to put the right "Once per turn,..." on her still.

PColby1
06-23-2017, 10:17 AM
What other custom decks have you done, sir? :)

t_tibke
06-23-2017, 03:47 PM
Posted in wrong area.

t_tibke
06-23-2017, 03:53 PM
Posted in wrong area.