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Woland16
04-17-2011, 03:14 AM
I had interesting situation in tournament and would like to hear discussion about it:
In round one, all the decklists were checked and we (judges) found some decklists with mistakes. When waiting to collect decks for check in round 2, I notice that player A, before shuffeling opponets deck, makes a move like watching the bottom card of opponents deck.
I'm not 100% sure he did that, altough looks like that, so I tell that to HJ and after realizing that player A recieves GL for that round, we decide to watch him during next round. Later on having some toughts I feel i should have confronted the player already at that time, but I didn't. I feel that to be bad call. Still, let's move on.

HJ is keeping eye on him while I deckcheck other table next round. Player A does same thing - looking the bottom card before shuffling. HJ is asking player to come to judge station and has talk with him. Player is not competative player and explains that he does that to see what way cards are, so he can shuffle them right side up.
In the end HJ decides that player was not aware of wrong doing, it was unintentional and player won't be disqualified for cheating. I'm not saying what penalty was given to him instead, so I let you to answer some questions:

So what would have you done? Cheating is done deliberatly and he didn't. He did however gain advantage. If it isn't cheating, what penalty he should have been given?

BlueRider
04-17-2011, 03:30 AM
I'd say it would fall under Looking at Extra Cards. Since you can determine which portion of the deck is random(the entire thing) there's no need to upgrade it from a Warning.

Littlejon24
04-17-2011, 09:43 AM
same, a warning seems appropriate. if it was a newer player/noncompetitive, then i would have a hard time believing that he/she would deliberately cheat.

Scottevil
04-17-2011, 10:58 AM
Assuming competitive level event:

The first time is happpens, I would go with "Looking at Extra Cards" - Warning, as long as I didn't feel he was doing it to gain an advantage. I would also accompany that with a talk on why it is bad to do that.

If he does the exact same thing later, I would give him "Failure to Follow Direct Instructions" - Game Loss. This is because he was told that this exact situation is bad and not to do it.

If he then repeats the exact same issue, then I would upgrade the "Failure to Follow Direct Instructions" further.

If at any time I feel he is intentionally doing this to gain an advantage, then it is Cheating -DQ.


Scott Lelivelt
Level 3 Artisan Judge

gentlegiant303
04-17-2011, 11:19 AM
I have to agree with Scott on how to handle the situation from a penalty stand point. From a judging philosophy, it should not matter that the player was already receiving a penalty. Since what they were doing had nothing to do with their deck, we should deal with this situation right away. If there is a chance a player is cheating, we want to deal with it and if they are we want them out of our event.

shadehealer
04-17-2011, 12:10 PM
i beleve he was cheating, why should a player know what side is opponent's deck? like opponent cant turn it around?...

Scottevil
04-17-2011, 12:26 PM
i beleve he was cheating, why should a player know what side is opponent's deck? like opponent cant turn it around?...

"A player is Cheating when they intentionally commit an infraction to gain a significant advantage or allow an infraction to be committed knowingly and results in a disqualification without prize."

It is possible for a player to accidentally see the bottom card of his opponents deck while shuffling. While he may gain an advantage of seeing what side his opponent is playing, that is not cheating unless it was intentional. There is a penalty for accidentally looking at extra cards, a warning. It is tracked and will be upgraded if it is repeated.


Scott Lelivelt
Level 3 Artisan Judge

martinezjkind
04-17-2011, 07:28 PM
It would depend on the level of the event and he did deliberatly look at the card , does not matter what the reason why . Also when you go to cut your oppenants deck you can , from the solid colored side , be able to tell which way a person sleeved his deck. When he figured out which way the card where in the deck did he continue to look while the player was shuffling , thus seeing more and more of the oersons deck?

Patrigan
04-18-2011, 12:25 AM
It would depend on the level of the event and he did deliberatly look at the card , does not matter what the reason why . Also when you go to cut your oppenants deck you can , from the solid colored side , be able to tell which way a person sleeved his deck. When he figured out which way the card where in the deck did he continue to look while the player was shuffling , thus seeing more and more of the oersons deck?

Just for the record, you can no longer cut a deck.

Now for the case at hand, it's really difficult to actually make a decision based on the information given. Was it competitive or normal rules level? Was he watching the whole bottom, or was it just the bottom card? If it was the latter, then how does that apply with orientation of the card within the deck. I'd also like the HJ opinion on how the conversation with the player went. That actually is the deciding factor in deciding if it was intentional or not.

In general, though, the outline of Scott is a good way to go (although I would add a strong investigation at the time you have to upgrade the failure to follow direct instructions.)

skey23
04-18-2011, 07:40 AM
I ask this question of everyone...

What advantage did the player gain by seeing the bottom card of the deck before shuffling?

TwilightSeraph
04-18-2011, 07:47 AM
At an advance level, it allows you a chance to partially see if they are currently running tech and if the deck is a homebrew, allows you to see a potential synergy or combo card.

At the basics, you get to see if your opponent is a baller and EA'd / Foiled his deck.

Ferrier13
04-18-2011, 07:48 AM
He knows that that card is in the opponents deck. Now is that an advantage? A very miniscule one because most cards you can just assume your opponent might have access too based on their hero choice.

TwilightSeraph
04-18-2011, 07:55 AM
It's as miniscule as going from 62-60 cards. Everyone % counts.

Sianzzz
04-18-2011, 09:56 AM
It actually depends on the deck build and the card that was peeked.
For example, if my opponent saw a copy of Blue Suede Shoes or Spell Ricochet in the bottom of my deck, then he will have a clear advantage as he would then be more careful when targeting my cards and would be able to play around such hidden tricks.
Furthermore, if a player does have the intention to cheat in peeking, normally he/she will be seeing more than 1 card, which will normally put the person in a much better position.
Hence, a judge should be fast in catching such players who spoils the game due to cheating.

Ferrier13
04-18-2011, 10:07 AM
A mentality of slamming the hammer down on someone because of that leads to bringing up the issue of scouting decks in between games etc. Would scouting then be considered cheating.. so I don't like that direction of thinking. I tend to agree that it should just be a looking at extra cards warning.

gentlegiant303
04-18-2011, 10:53 AM
I never meant to imply that for sure this player was cheating. I was just saying that we should look into it in case they were.

Patrigan
04-18-2011, 12:41 PM
I was actually more concerned about the player being able to stack his opponent's deck. If I know the bottom card is dangerous for me, I would keep it on the bottom, otherwise, I would shuffle it to the top. (not that I would actually do that, but it is by example). that is a far worse problem than "Knowing what the opponent plays"

martinezjkind
04-19-2011, 01:09 PM
Just for the record, you can no longer cut a deck.

Now for the case at hand, it's really difficult to actually make a decision based on the information given. Was it competitive or normal rules level? Was he watching the whole bottom, or was it just the bottom card? If it was the latter, then how does that apply with orientation of the card within the deck. I'd also like the HJ opinion on how the conversation with the player went. That actually is the deciding factor in deciding if it was intentional or not.

In general, though, the outline of Scott is a good way to go (although I would add a strong investigation at the time you have to upgrade the failure to follow direct instructions.)

Not sure how cheating will be prevented since you can no longer cut a person's deck, heck I have shown some judges my trick that I can memorize the backs of sleeves there were just bought, for both decks.I don't actually use this skill but I do have it and everyone that i regularly play with knows I can, but advantages are advantages, from scouting another oppenants decks and face expressions to stacking your own deck or memorizing cards in your oppenants hands and where they are . Every bit can stack up to push the % of what you should do in situations and that helps your chances to win.

Patrigan
04-20-2011, 12:37 PM
Not sure how cheating will be prevented since you can no longer cut a person's deck, heck I have shown some judges my trick that I can memorize the backs of sleeves there were just bought, for both decks.I don't actually use this skill but I do have it and everyone that i regularly play with knows I can, but advantages are advantages, from scouting another oppenants decks and face expressions to stacking your own deck or memorizing cards in your oppenants hands and where they are . Every bit can stack up to push the % of what you should do in situations and that helps your chances to win.

You should brush up on your tournament policies. Instead of cutting, you are now forced to do a full shuffle as an opponent.

skey23
04-20-2011, 12:40 PM
You should brush up on your tournament policies. Instead of cutting, you are now forced to do a full shuffle as an opponent.

If you read what he posted again, you'll notice he said that "you can no longer cut a person's deck."

martinezjkind
04-20-2011, 02:29 PM
Nm guys I found it "3.1 Pre-Game Procedures As of March 2011, pre-game procedures have been simplified. Players are no longer required to perform cuts after shuffling. The following steps must be performed before each game begins.......Although cutting the deck can be used as part of shuffling, by itself it is not a technique that provides sufficient randomization." I thought by saying you can no longer cut a person's deck meant that you may never under any reason do it, EVER.

Edit :Big difference between no longer required and no longer allowed .

Patrigan
04-20-2011, 10:18 PM
If you read what he posted again, you'll notice he said that "you can no longer cut a person's deck."

Yes he said that, while not realizing you must shuffle the deck. The reading comprehension is strong in me ^^ And it's a good thing he did as I said, as show by his next post.