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Thread: AH discussion

  1. #1
    HEX Employee Chark's Avatar
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    Question AH discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by ossuary View Post
    They've hired an actual economist to help them with that side of things, so I imagine that realistically they had PLANS in place for all of this, but nothing was set in stone until they had the time to develop it more fully with a professional.
    edit: Moved this to a separate thread to avoid hijacking the other one.


    Hey guys, this keeps coming up so I want to clarify it a bit:

    In the past we've retained a consultant with a PHD in economics for a limited time. At this time, we don't have an economist full time on our staff.

    There are a number of systems that affect economy (card rarity, tournament entry fees, AH functions, PvE activities and rewards, etc), but we'll likely not share details until we are ready to roll these systems out to the public. For now, I don't have a good estimate for when these will roll out or in what order they'll happen. There are a lot of moving pieces right now.
    Last edited by Chark; 01-29-2014 at 05:10 PM.

  2. #2
    I am happy with baby steps at this point. Without a strong functioning engine to support both draft and sealed, the economy does not matter, and more streamlined gameplay with less synch time and less input lag time should continue to be the focus.

    I know they are fleshing out the economy and have more to say, but what is the point of step 2 if step 1 is not complete?

    ^(what he said)

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by JCourtney View Post
    Why is there so much transparency of these features? Shouldn't this stuff already be planned out?
    there's a good chance they already have it VERY planned out internally... but i mean, it's not exactly on them to share EVERY SINGLE DETAIL of their development, especially because you never know when something might be changed while still in development, and if you are TOO transparent then you get nothing but people upset about changes posting all over the place on the forums. better that they reveal as they go, in my opinion.

  4. #4
    The Transcended
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chark View Post
    There are a number of systems that affect economy (card rarity, tournament entry fees, AH functions, PvE activities and rewards, etc), but we'll likely not share details until we are ready to roll these systems out to the public. For now, I don't have a good estimate for when these will roll out or in what order they'll happen. There are a lot of moving pieces right now.
    I can understand not revealing specific parameters (legendary spawn rate, primal pack spawn rate, loot table drop rates, AH fee structure, etc) and even not revealing specific detailed functions (crafting, gold sinks, UI layout specifics, etc). However, I do not understand why we cannot know at least some general facts about where you're headed.

    Can we at least find out some very basic details?
    - Will the AH be bid/ask like EVE or GW2? If not, why not?
    - Will there be an official market-based currency exchange between Gold and Platinum or will it be ad hoc through some other less transparent mechanism like p2p trading? If the latter, why?
    - What sort of non-AH trading will be possible (direct trade functions, "mail" system, etc)?

    By the time you roll it out to the public, it will be too late for you to implement much feedback, especially in regards to basic structure. If you are not willing to share yet, can we at least know why the secrecy is so important?

  5. #5
    Glad the economist thing was cleared up. I've seen that posted a 100 times now.

  6. #6
    HEX Employee Chark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoss View Post
    I can understand not revealing specific parameters (legendary spawn rate, primal pack spawn rate, loot table drop rates, AH fee structure, etc) and even not revealing specific detailed functions (crafting, gold sinks, UI layout specifics, etc). However, I do not understand why we cannot know at least some general facts about where you're headed.

    Can we at least find out some very basic details?
    - Will the AH be bid/ask like EVE or GW2? If not, why not?
    - Will there be an official market-based currency exchange between Gold and Platinum or will it be ad hoc through some other less transparent mechanism like p2p trading? If the latter, why?
    - What sort of non-AH trading will be possible (direct trade functions, "mail" system, etc)?

    By the time you roll it out to the public, it will be too late for you to implement much feedback, especially in regards to basic structure. If you are not willing to share yet, can we at least know why the secrecy is so important?
    I can answer some of these questions. In general, we are always hesitant to disclose things we have planned, because people tend to accept them as facts. This causes problems for when we want to go in a different direction, or take away something.

    - Legendary card drop rate I believe is set to 1 in 11 right now and may end up somewhere between that and 1 in 9. I don't think this is too difficult to derive, so I don't have an issue mentioning the odds.

    - Primal pack spawn rate I'd rather keep a surprise for people. I think it's more exciting to learn this on your own. It's definitely higher then 1 in 11.

    - Loot table drop rates I of course can't discuss.

    - AH fee structure: we are looking at 3-5% fee on sold items. There will likely be a listing fee to prevent people spamming items that are unlikely to sell.

    - AH is going to be the normal AH (not bid/ask). There are a couple of factors that contribute to this. Given that our cards are non-substitutable goods, it makes sense to first develop this style of AH. I happen to agree that bid/ask for substitutable goods is a better experience for people, but the normal system can handle both types of goods, while the bid/ask has a difficult time handling unique cards. In the ideal world, I would want both systems, but if I had to choose one, it would be the one that can handle all of the transactions.

    - There will not be a straight plat/gold exchange on the AH. Players can of course use other commodities as a vehicle to translate plat into gold.

    - In terms of non-AH trading: We have both a mail system and a p2p trading planned, although there is no specific timeline for when either will roll out.


    We are not opposed to listening to feedback from players. I would argue that any time you roll something out to the public, you can still implement feedback, if we are convinced we were wrong on something. The important thing to keep in mind is that designing systems is a constant tradeoff. There are a tons of features we can dream up, but only so many hours in the day for the engineers to implement. Feedback from the community is great and we definitely learn from it, but often it ends up as a source of a frustration for everyone. Usually it's not a question of 'hey, have you though of this feature?' but rather 'where on the list of features, does this get prioritized?' and worse: 'what do I cut in place of this feature to ship this product?'

  7. #7
    Very insightful and interesting post. Thanks for sharing Chark!


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  8. #8
    Thank you for the information!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chark View Post
    - There will not be a straight plat/gold exchange on the AH. Players can of course use other commodities as a vehicle to translate plat into gold.

    - In terms of non-AH trading: We have both a mail system and a p2p trading planned, although there is no specific timeline for when either will roll out.
    Is there/will there be anything in place that would prevent someone from manually exchanging these? For example, advertising in a trade channel, "Selling plat, 100g each" and then using P2P to exchange these goods? And/or is plat going to be able to be listed on the AH for gold, and vice versa? Could I put up an auction of 10 plat (bid in gold), for example?
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  9. #9
    The Transcended
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aradon View Post
    Is there/will there be anything in place that would prevent someone from manually exchanging these? For example, advertising in a trade channel, "Selling plat, 100g each" and then using P2P to exchange these goods? And/or is plat going to be able to be listed on the AH for gold, and vice versa? Could I put up an auction of 10 plat (bid in gold), for example?
    I'm in the middle of composing a response as well and this was on my list, sorta. I get the impression that you will not be able to list currency for currency (but I asked why this should be so). It seems they expect the conversion to go through commodity trades.

    For example, you have Plat and want Gold. You use your Plat to buy something (anything). You take that something and relist it with a price tag in Gold. When the item sells, you've now essentially converted Plat to Gold, though you had to pay the AH fees twice, which sucks.

    Given that, it is very likely you'll see exactly what you said where people spam chat looking for p2p currency trades.

    We discussed the pitfalls of abstracting the exchange rate back in August and now it seems that we're marching into those pits despite knowing about them.
    Last edited by Yoss; 01-29-2014 at 04:42 PM.

  10. #10
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    Very glad to have answers, Chark, thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chark View Post
    I can answer some of these questions. In general, we are always hesitant to disclose things we have planned, because people tend to accept them as facts. This causes problems for when we want to go in a different direction, or take away something.
    Understood. Making promises can get you into trouble when plans change.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chark View Post
    AH is going to be the normal AH (not bid/ask). There are a couple of factors that contribute to this. Given that our cards are non-substitutable goods, it makes sense to first develop this style of AH. I happen to agree that bid/ask for substitutable goods is a better experience for people, but the normal system can handle both types of goods, while the bid/ask has a difficult time handling unique cards. In the ideal world, I would want both systems, but if I had to choose one, it would be the one that can handle all of the transactions.
    I am very disappointed that bid/ask is not currently being pursued. The community discussed the economy at length back in August and one of the big concerns was exactly what you're mentioning here about double-back stats and how it makes cards less like standard commodities (more "non-substitutable" as you call it). However, to the comment that "bid/ask has a difficult time handling unique cards", we did come up with ideas for how to preserve uniqueness while also implementing a bid/ask structure. One does not need to choose between having bid/ask and giving highlight to the double-back; you can do both. In design speak, there is actually very little trade-off between the two once you frame the structure properly. Card uniqueness and bid/ask do seem at odd upon first glance, but a closer look reveals that the two are compatible.

    Here is the relevant excerpt from the thread I linked above:
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoss View Post
    The Hex Bid/ASK System (HexBAS)
    The goal is to avoid the inefficient market formats used in games like World of Warcraft and MTGO and places like eBay. The basis of the HexBAS idea is a system like real world stock markets and games like Guild Wars 2 and EVE, which have been shown efficient and effective.

    There is one problem for Hex, however, since the cards are not perfect commodities due to the potential value of the double-back stats. (A card with 98% XP and an achievement or two is likely worth more than one with 5% XP and no achievements.) This can be fixed with some small alterations for how items are listed. Note that other commodities (equipment, currencies) can work under a traditional bid/ask system...

    •BUYING: Type in a search for what you want. Click on an item type you wish to buy. (You do not select a specific listing.) If you are interested in particular double-back stats, enter the features you want: alternate art (yes/no/don't care), minimum % XP, and must-have achievements (checkboxes). Enter the price you wish to pay and click Buy At This Price. This is called a Bid Limit Order...
    Was something like this considered? If so, why was it deemed inferior to the eBay style? If not, would you now consider it and let us know what you think?


    Quote Originally Posted by Chark View Post
    There will not be a straight plat/gold exchange on the AH. Players can of course use other commodities as a vehicle to translate plat into gold.
    Would you mind stating the reasoning behind this? To me, it seems like it would be very easy to, for example, allow quantities of Platinum to be listed as the item for sale using a Gold price tag. Such an idea works even with standard auctions.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chark View Post
    The important thing to keep in mind is that designing systems is a constant tradeoff. There are a tons of features we can dream up, but only so many hours in the day for the engineers to implement. Feedback from the community is great and we definitely learn from it, but often it ends up as a source of a frustration for everyone. Usually it's not a question of 'hey, have you though of this feature?' but rather 'where on the list of features, does this get prioritized?' and worse: 'what do I cut in place of this feature to ship this product?'
    I hear you. I'm aslo an engineer and well aware of the trade-offs of time, money, and features. It's always sad to see dreams diminish in scope as they collide with reality, but there's no way around it. Being aware of how trade-offs work is why I've been asking to know sooner rather than later about AH structure; it is MUCH cheaper to change course early than late, and the cost is actually negligible if you catch it soon enough. This is why I was so vocal about it back in August (I'm hoping that effort was not wasted).

    If the ship has not yet sailed on AH structure, I'd love the chance to come down and chat about it. (If you can't tell, this is pretty important to me.)

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